OT: What do you understand patriotism to be?
Therion Ware
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Do you think you're a patriot?
Why?
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
towelie
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
> "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
I'd say "My country, right it when it's wrong."
> Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
> to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
> and so forth.
For USAians to support Dumbya?
> Do you think you're a patriot?
I don't consider myself patriotic.
> Why?
Because I consider myself a citizen of this planet, not just an individual
country. The only geographical boundaries I use for self-identification is
the city or state I live in. I'm an Earthiling, and an Arkansan.
"American" is a meaningless label.
Political boundaries only separate us.
> But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
> alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
> patriotism a bit problematic.
Because Gawd is always on (my country's) side no matter what it does.
> Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
> *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
> If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
> sense?
Breach of rules: use of "believers" and "rational" in the same question.
> And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
> wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
Something that somebody else told them to think, no doubt.
--
If you don't like my lyrics you can press fast forward. - Jay-Z
aa #2133
ap #19
John Ings
<autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
>So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
The veneration of real estate above principles
Ike
"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com...
>
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
> "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
>
patriotic to that place.
> Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
> to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
> and so forth.
>
> Do you think you're a patriot?
>
> Why?
>
a) Because if a foreign power attacks my people, I'm just lucky if it wasn't
me. b) I'm here, and obligated to the people around me, including
(especially) my family. c) I paid taxes and I'm still waiting for my money's
worth ('til Hell freezes over, no doubt).
> But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
> alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
> patriotism a bit problematic.
>
> Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
> *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
>
> If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
> sense?
>
> And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
> wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
>
>
>
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
Therion Ware
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:12:03 -0700 in alt.atheism, John Ings (John
Ings <noda...@spam.org>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Ouch.
Unexpected, but ... yes, I like that. Makes me thin.
But don't you think the administration of the real estate might have
something to do with it?
Callipygian Nullifidian
news:gRf4d.42$zG1...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:
: "Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
: news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com...
: >
: > Yep another of them questions!
: >
: > So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
: >
: > "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
: >
: Patriotism is loyalty. There is no other place to go. If there is,
be
: patriotic to that place.
Yer a loony.
: > Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For
Russians
: > to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And
so on
: > and so forth.
: >
: You speak in the past tense. They aren't all dead yet.
Who isn't dead yet? Perhaps you should have actually read the
sentence, before replying to it.
: > Do you think you're a patriot?
: >
: Yes.
: > Why?
: >
: a) Because if a foreign power attacks my people, I'm just lucky if
it wasn't
: me. b) I'm here, and obligated to the people around me, including
: (especially) my family. c) I paid taxes and I'm still waiting for my
money's
: worth ('til Hell freezes over, no doubt).
Yes, you ARE a loony. None of these things are a REASON to think that
you're a patriot. These statements make you sound like a right-wing
dittohead, are you?
: > But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible
and
: > alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
: > patriotism a bit problematic.
: >
: > Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to
it,
: > *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
: >
: > If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
: > sense?
: >
: You talking to me?? Rational??
See above.
: > And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder
of
: > wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
: >
: Excusea me. Oh, beleeeeeevers! Somebody wants to talk to you.
I find this a bit odd, also.
agray
>
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
To me, "America" is not a place or a people or a country. It's a set of
ideas - life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, champion of the right of the
people to self-rule. Government of the people, by the people, for the
people.
When the US Government acts in concert with those ideals, then I am happy to
support it.
When it does not, it is my duty to oppose it. Bitterly, fiercely if
necessary. And ultimately, to change it -- by force if necessary. (In
case you think I'm preaching sedition, read the Declaration of Independence
again.)
For example: The war on terror is ultimately a war to prevent the killing
of innocent people, like the ~3000 who died on 9/11. So how can we justify
over 10,000 innocent Afghani/Iraqi deaths? Americans are not somehow
intrinsically more valuable than Iraqis, so why are our 3000 innocent
deaths somehow more tragic than their 10,000?
Why is our national security more important than theirs?
In my opinion, both the terrorists and the US Government are criminals. Al
Qaeda killed innocent New Yorkers who had nothing to do with their
political problems. The US has killed innocent Iraqis who had nothing to
do with our government's political problems, and nothing to do with US
national security.
I don't expect people to agree with me, so I won't question others' decision
to support the war. But in my position, I find that the only thing I can
do as an American Patriot is to fight for the American ideals even if that
means opposing the US Government.
--
"By this logic, teaching anti-discrimination against ethnic minorities is
going to turn white people black." --OrangeSFO on rec.gambling.poker
Schism
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his
government"
Edgar A Pearlstein
Therion Ware (autod...@city-of-dis.com) wrote:
:
: Yep another of them questions!
:
: So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
PATRIOTISM: SYMBOLIC AND SUBSTANTIVE
Edgar Pearlstein
Since September 11, 2001 there has been a great increase in symbolic
patriotism, such as: displaying the U.S. flag on our houses, clothing, and
autos; pledging allegiance; singing the national anthem at athletic
contests; and by politicians saying "May God bless America" at the end of
every speech.
To some people, patriotism means, in addition to symbolism like the
above, never criticizing the country or its leaders, especially in matters
of foreign affairs. And to some it even seems to mean being gung-ho in
favor of any war that is proposed, and that opposition to war is treason!
Public symbolism is just that--symbolism. Symbolism is OK, but it
isn't enough.
Substantive patriotism, in contrast with symbolic patriotism, means
actually doing something. Serving in the military immediately comes to
mind; and, for those of us not in the military, giving respect to those
who are or were. There are also various civic duties, for example:
honesty about tax returns, accepting jury duty when called, serving in or
contributing to volunteer organizations.
A major civic responsibility that some people ignore is staying aware
of what is going on in Washington, the state capital, and the world. Not
just a few days before elections and not just in terms of headlines,
slogans, and sound-bites, but all the time and in depth. Those who ignore
issues and candidates until just before an election are not doing their
civic duty. And if they vote randomly, or on the basis of shallow
one-line reasoning, or only on the basis of what a candidate did or said
last week, they are just producing noise and thus doing harm.
A patriot will show respect to those people, both military and
civilian, who sacrificed in order that we may get and keep our liberties.
We can best honor our heroes not only by parades and speeches, but also
by resolutely holding on to and exercising the liberties they fought for.
And the patriot should not be cowed into silence by political and social
pressures, even if those pressures are claimed to be in the name of
"national security".
To deny that the country has any faults, to support its leaders
unconditionally, to automatically accept as true whatever the leaders tell
you--these are what patriotism means in an authoritarian system, not a
democratic one.
Some define patriotism as love of country, and define love of country
as never admitting that it does anything wrong. (Except with regard to
taxes!) They might be fond of the bumper-sticker slogan "Love it or leave
it."
"Love is blind", wrote Shakespeare (The Merchant of Venice, Act 2,
Scene 6). He wrote that as a fact, not a desirability, and he was writing
about romantic love, not other kinds. For example, another kind of love
is the love we have for our children, even though they might misbehave at
times; but if we are blind to their faults and limitations, we are in that
respect poor parents.
Similarly, love of country should not be blind--especially in a
democratic country which depends upon its citizens to have thought-out
opinions and to speak up.
To love our country constructively we should not only glory in her good
works, but acknowledge and try to change her deficiencies. A patriot
should take seriously these words from the second stanza of "America the
Beautiful":
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!
Jez
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
Ever hear Michael Parenti on 'Patriotism' ?
Quite good.......
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=1878&nav=&
or even....
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=5039&nav=&
As for patriotism....
'Love of ones country'.........Mmmmm whats there to love ?
Our leaders ? Nope...a proven bunch of liars.
Our people ? Well, not exactly capable of that......not met most of them.
Our land ? What........the great big restaurant that is nature ?
Hmmmm........
Nope....I'm not patriotic at all.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Skype callto://hellward
Terrell D Lewis
"Edgar A Pearlstein" <epea...@unlserve.unl.edu> wrote in message
news:cisjda$mu2$1...@unlnews.unl.edu...
>
> Therion Ware (autod...@city-of-dis.com) wrote:
> :
> : Yep another of them questions!
> :
> : So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
> PATRIOTISM: SYMBOLIC AND SUBSTANTIVE
>
> Edgar Pearlstein
>
> Since September 11, 2001 there has been a great increase in symbolic
> patriotism, such as: displaying the U.S. flag on our houses, clothing, and
> autos; pledging allegiance; singing the national anthem at athletic
> contests; and by politicians saying "May God bless America" at the end of
> every speech.
> To some people, patriotism means, in addition to symbolism like the
> above, never criticizing the country or its leaders, especially in matters
> of foreign affairs. And to some it even seems to mean being gung-ho in
> favor of any war that is proposed, and that opposition to war is treason!
This is what's called Nationalism and isn't what America is about. Indeed,
utilizing one's right of free speech in order to dissent is itself a
patriotic duty.
This is contrary to the practice of many Conservatives who seem to believe,
or at least act like they believe, that dissent is seditious (but only when
dissenting againt Conservatives).
No country, including America, is perfect and it is through dissent that she
is able to evaluate herself. At this point in history, while Conservatives
are in power, she needs the voices of dissent raised to remind her of the
plight of the homeless, poor, those without medical care, and, in articles
today, of the many disenfranchised black voters who are being denied a voice
in their government. Bush 2 even changed the White House web site so that
one must first identify themself as agreeing or not with his policies before
one can send an email to the White House. And, the Bush 2 administration
has labelled people who disagree with him, especially in regards to the war
in Iraq, as terrorists. ANd, whenever he appears, those who dissent with
him are cordoned off out of view of the press. (From various articles over
the past couple years)
We are the only industrialized nation in the world who does not have a
national health plan, one of a very few countries who executes criminals
some of whom were convicted in error because our judicial system is stacked
against the poor, one of only 5 countries in the world who executes
children. We produce enough food to feed the world, and yet, we have people
starving. When Reagain cut funds to mental health facilities, the ranks of
the homeless were swelled with the mentally ill, many of whom are now held
in prisons because there's no funding to care for them. America is truly a
land of freedom, for those who can afford it. These are some of the areas
where the voices of dissent must be raised.
There are times when war is unavoidable and we need voices to raise in
opposition to war to remind us that war is never "right" regardless of
whether it is avoidable or not.
I think America is a great nation, but some times we get off track, and it
is through the exercise of the right to dissent and at the voting booth that
we are able to get back on track. Dissent, in a very real sense is
America's conscience.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.midihymnal.com
sto...@the.net
<autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
>
>Yep another of them questions!
>
>So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
All too often the last resort of the scoundrel.
Verbage of control to get others to do what all too often the speaker
is too cowardly to do/have done.
Mike Smith
=Yep another of them questions!
=So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
I'm usually suspicious of it. I mean, being proud
of your country is one thing, but it turns into "we're
better than you" and escalates from there.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them
that stand here, which shall not taste of death,
till they have seen the kingdom of God come with
power." - Mark 9:1
Arturo Magidin
Mike Smith <mike...@godisdead.com> wrote:
>Therion Ware <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
>
>=Yep another of them questions!
>=So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
>I'm usually suspicious of it. I mean, being proud
>of your country is one thing, but it turns into "we're
>better than you" and escalates from there.
In Spanish (or at least, in Mexico), there are two words: "patriota" y
"patriotero". The first means "patriot" in the usual, positive
sense. The latter is meant to encompass the bad things, and
particularly the overly public insistence of your own worth as a
patriot and the worth of your country beyond warrant.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
mag...@math.berkeley.edu
Ike
"Callipygian Nullifidian" <mulb...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:cis4s2$6if$1...@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
> "Ike" <accord...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:gRf4d.42$zG1...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> :
> : "Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
> : news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com...
> : >
> : > Yep another of them questions!
> : >
> : > So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
> : >
> : > "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
> : >
> : Patriotism is loyalty. There is no other place to go. If there is,
> be
> : patriotic to that place.
>
> Yer a loony.
>
> : > Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For
> Russians
> : > to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And
> so on
> : > and so forth.
> : >
> : You speak in the past tense. They aren't all dead yet.
>
> Who isn't dead yet? Perhaps you should have actually read the
> sentence, before replying to it.
>
Vietnam war, the last group comprises both people on the communist and
anti-communist side and they still support whom or what they supported then.
> : > Do you think you're a patriot?
> : >
> : Yes.
> : > Why?
> : >
> : a) Because if a foreign power attacks my people, I'm just lucky if
> it wasn't
> : me. b) I'm here, and obligated to the people around me, including
> : (especially) my family. c) I paid taxes and I'm still waiting for my
> money's
> : worth ('til Hell freezes over, no doubt).
>
> Yes, you ARE a loony. None of these things are a REASON to think that
> you're a patriot. These statements make you sound like a right-wing
> dittohead, are you?
>
> : > But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible
> and
> : > alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
> : > patriotism a bit problematic.
> : >
> : > Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to
> it,
> : > *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
> : >
> : > If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
> : > sense?
> : >
> : You talking to me?? Rational??
>
> See above.
>
> : > And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder
> of
> : > wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
> : >
> : Excusea me. Oh, beleeeeeevers! Somebody wants to talk to you.
>
> I find this a bit odd, also.
waste my time.
Clayton Sprained His Ankle The Useless Bastard!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
That a peice of material in the form of a flag is the most sacred thing
imaginable, but the ideals that that flag are supposed to represent are
flexible dependant on one's own agenda. Burning a flag is a terrible,
terrible thing but shooting the person who is doing the burning is a
patriotic act!
Daniel Kolle
>Yep another of them questions!
>
>So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
>"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
I define patriotism in the US as following the Constitition--something
neither the Republicans or Democrats can claim these days.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
Terrell D Lewis
"Clayton Sprained His Ankle The Useless Bastard!"
<cj...@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> wrote in message
news:4151ff15$0$20126$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
I cannot agree. First off ... since I am posting from alt.bible, you have
just made the flag into an idol.
Secondly, I honor the flag. I remember way back in the mid to late 70s, I
was stationed in Turkey. At the time, the US had imposed an embargo on
Turkey for using planes we had sold them in Cyprus so, the Turkish
government took it out on us servicemen. One of the things we had to endure
was a prohibition on flying the flag on base. Then the last year I was
there (1979), for the 4th of July, they allowed us to have an honor guard
carry the flag to our base picnic. I wept.
That being said, burning the flag in protest (burning is the correct way of
disposing of a flag that is worn) is disturbing to me, but because it is
disturbing, it is an effective symbol of dissent that should be protected as
free speech. I don't like it when someone does it, but I served a little
over 8 years to help ensure that people have the right to do it. As the old
saying went: "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to
my death your right to say it."
Woden
>
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
nation or state.
>
> "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
"My Country, no big deal - my own personal freedom and that of others,
damn important.
>
> Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
> to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
> and so forth.
Obviously they believed it was patriotic.
>
> Do you think you're a patriot?
Not really. Although if my homeland was invaded, I would probably be
willing to fight to defend my liberties.
>
> Why?
Like religion, "patriotism" is a tool for politicians to use to control
and manipulate the masses.
>
> But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
> alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
> patriotism a bit problematic.
>
> Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
> *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
>
> If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
> sense?
"rational"? You're asking "believers".
>
> And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
> wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
>
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Kate
>
>Yep another of them questions!
>
>So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
>"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
>
>Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
>to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
>and so forth.
>
>Do you think you're a patriot?
>
>Why?
>
>But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
>alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
>patriotism a bit problematic.
>
>Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
>*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
>
>If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
>sense?
>
>And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
>wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
I think patriotism is loving your country enough to work hard and fix
it's problems and to help your fellow citizens and support those who
sacrafice for our country. I think ignoring it when the leaders are
wrong and doing things that are hurting our country or our military
men is extremely unpatriotic.
Daniel Kolle
hard and said:
>Therion Ware <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in
>news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> Yep another of them questions!
>>
>> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
>A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
>nation or state.
Do I smell a communist?
GoDrex
"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com...
>
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
how about Orwell's definition from this essay:
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
----
By "nationalism" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings
can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of
millions of people can be confidently labelled "good" or "bad." But
secondly -- and this is much more important -- I mean the habit of
identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond
good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its
interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are
normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be
challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two
different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean
devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one
believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other
people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and
culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire
for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power
and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which
he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
-----
works for me...
John Ings
<autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
>>>So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>>
>>The veneration of real estate above principles
>But don't you think the administration of the real estate might have
>something to do with it?
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant
It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy
of the rest of mankind. ~Voltaire
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all
other countries because you were born in it. [...]You'll never have a
quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
~George Bernard Shaw
It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can
long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a
single small globe against the stars. ~Arthur C. Clarke
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It
is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in
waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous
as well as strong. ~James Bryce
## There is no they, only us.
Woden
news:dfa4l05qj0dab6rr2...@4ax.com:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:24:32 -0000, Woden <wodencharternet> thought
> hard and said:
>
>>Therion Ware <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in
>>news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com:
>>
>>>
>>> Yep another of them questions!
>>>
>>> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>>
>>A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
>>nation or state.
>
> Do I smell a communist?
Ah, another of those imaginary concepts that people use as an excuse to
do bad things to their fellow man.
Mark K. Bilbo
<m1u2l0hfo2puos7og...@4ax.com> we saw our hero Therion Ware
<autod...@city-of-dis.com>:
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
What's "patriotism?"
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
Scott
"John Ings" <noda...@spam.org> wrote in message
news:4eb4l0lpqld1s8lmm...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:17:40 +0100, Therion Ware
> <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
>
>
> >>>So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
> >>
> >>The veneration of real estate above principles
>
> >But don't you think the administration of the real estate might have
> >something to do with it?
>
> Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
> hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant
Or maybe economics.
>
> It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy
> of the rest of mankind. ~Voltaire
>
> Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
> ~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934
>
> Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all
> other countries because you were born in it.
Subjectivism and Cultural Relativism
[...]You'll never have a
> quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
> ~George Bernard Shaw
There is an economic theory of war that would imply otherwise.
>
> It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can
> long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a
> single small globe against the stars. ~Arthur C. Clarke
If nationalism is only subjective (subjectivism) what does it mean to say
"more extremes forms" if there is no objective measurement to gage a
nationalism to?
>
>
> Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It
> is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in
> waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous
> as well as strong. ~James Bryce
So you see, Thereon? J.L. is another self-proclaimed materialists (I goggled
for it and he specifically said so) who is quoting moral realism philosophy.
"Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance" There is
no objective values to owe an allegiance to.
"It is also owed to justice and to humanity" That assumes a moral truth - a
natural law theory. It assumes a truth-value in desire and violates Hume's
Law of not being able to get an objective ought from an is. It's a violation
of Wilkins explanation of a genetic fallacy
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1g3ufbl.mr5y2n1kx8ceeN%25wilkins%40wehi.edu.au&output=gplain
"Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our
country shall be righteous" That assumes an objective metaphysical thing
called righteousness.
Like beliefs in gods and ghosts, the quotes assume a belief in a
philosophical realism that isn't compatible with materialism.
Scott
Therion Ware
On 22 Sep 2004 19:22:18 GMT in alt.atheism, Edgar A Pearlstein
(epea...@unlserve.unl.edu (Edgar A Pearlstein)) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism,alt.bible,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
alt.atheism
>
>Therion Ware (autod...@city-of-dis.com) wrote:
>:
>: Yep another of them questions!
>:
>: So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
>
> PATRIOTISM: SYMBOLIC AND SUBSTANTIVE
Erm, "What do **you** understand patriotism to be"?
[snip]
Meteorite Debris
Ware<autod...@city-of-dis.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
>
> Yep another of them questions!
>
> So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
I understand it to be something similar to religion.
see <http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/misc/apatriotism.htm>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism/>
> "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
It is a bit like saying my mother drunk or somber, my father hit man
or not.
> Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
> to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
> and so forth.
Germans no doubt saw it as their patriotic duty. Here is an example of
people doing in the name of their country what good people would not
normally do to others. In that it is like religion when people do in
the name of their god what they would usually not do. Organised
obedience has caused more harm in the world than sole villains.
Patriotism, like religion, comes in different strengths. From benign
to psycho madness and some patriots are inspired to great acts and
ideals just as some religious people are inspired to humanitarianism.
But also, just as there are mad fundamentalists in religion so you
will find nationalistic fascists. Very often they are the same people.
But as for the good I would say to copy/paste from my own web page "If
an act or idea has merit without appealing to patriotism then the
patriotic appeal is surplus and if it has merit ONLY in the context of
patriotism then you're talking about a war crime, genocide or some
lessor violation of human rights."
> Do you think you're a patriot?
No. I am an apatriot.
> Why?
For the reasons above.
> But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
> alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
> patriotism a bit problematic.
I have noticed that the most religious countries also tend to be over
the top in jingoism. Where one is you will find the other. And the two
become one keep a good look over your shoulder and take care about who
you talk to.
> Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
> *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
>
> If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
> sense?
>
> And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
> wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
Meteorite Debris
Ings<noda...@spam.org> sent a radio signal across the vast expanse of
deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
> Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
> hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant
>
> It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy
> of the rest of mankind. ~Voltaire
>
> Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
> ~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934
>
> Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all
> other countries because you were born in it. [...]You'll never have a
> quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
> ~George Bernard Shaw
>
> It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can
> long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a
> single small globe against the stars. ~Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
> Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It
> is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in
> waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous
> as well as strong. ~James Bryce
>
> ## There is no they, only us.
I like these quotes.
Scott
"Meteorite Debris" <ab...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bbe5f23b...@news.optusnet.com.au...
You see, Therion? This is yet another argument for a universal moral
realism. How does this non-materialistic, objective idealism enter into a
secular humanism which itself claims philosophical materialism? It can't.
But it is ignoring an obvious contradiction to materialism.
Scott
Scott
"Scott" <sc...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:WUV4d.739$zc1...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> > But as for the good I would say to copy/paste from my own web page "If
> > an act or idea has merit without appealing to patriotism then the
> > patriotic appeal is surplus and if it has merit ONLY in the context of
> > patriotism then you're talking about a war crime, genocide or some
> > lessor violation of human rights."
>
> You see, Therion? This is yet another argument for a universal moral
> realism. How does this non-materialistic, objective idealism enter into a
> secular humanism which itself claims philosophical materialism? It can't.
> But it is ignoring an obvious contradiction to materialism.
Put it this way, therion. How is it that we, meteorite debris, come to
posses a metaphysical quality such as moral realism?
Scott
Therion Ware
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:09:58 GMT in
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Scott ("Scott"
<sc...@nospam.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
IIRC, you've yet to tell me what you understand by the term "moral
realism".
Scott
"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:kc1al0hlkj2vbmb2m...@4ax.com...
Moral realism and objective morality are the same thing. Moral realism is a
metaphysical (non-materialistic) objective quality just like claims of a
god. For moral realism to be compatible with materialism it *must* be a
quality existing within, and be a part of, the universe that we can
comprehend....such that time is. IOW it must be a quality that sentient
beings would come to know as being mind independent. Sentient beings on
another planet somewhere in the Universe would come to know the same moral
realisms. Morality would not be relative to those beings but would apply
equally (moral truth) to them as it does to us. In short morality would be
descriptive.
The is no empirical evidence for a thing as the moral realism "inherent
human rights". None. Inherent human rights is a claim to a metaphysical
realism. Hence, statements of such are all intuitive (faith) "Declarations
of....."
If intuitive claims for moral realism are compatible with materialism then,
synonymously, intuitive claims for gods are also compatible with
materialism.
http://www.fact-index.com/m/mo/moral_realism.html
http://www.disputatio.com/articles/011-2.pdf
http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TEth/TEthChew.htm
Scott