Another Day, Another Atrocity
Jesus H.
BBC News
Thursday, 21 September, 2000, 13:16 GMT 14:16 UK
The charity set up by the late Mother Teresa
in the Indian city of Calcutta has said that one
of its nuns was guilty of torturing four children.
The head of the
Missionaries of Charity,
Sister Nirmala, said one
of the order's nuns,
Sister Francesco, had
"clearly overstepped her
limits" while punishing
four girls who were
accused of stealing.
Both Sister Nirmala and Sister Francesco
appeared before a Calcutta court earlier this
week after a woman sued them over the
torture of her daughter.
The court granted them bail on Wednesday.
The scandal broke when the woman, Kaviran
Mondal, accused Sister Francesco of
deliberately burning her seven-year-old
daughter, Kaveri, on a hot plate.
Sister Nirmala, who succeeded Mother Teresa
as superior general of the charity, said in a
statement that an investigation by the order
had found Sister Francesco guilty of burning
four young girls, including Kaveri.
She did this to punish
them for allegedly
stealing her belongings.
"We, the Missionaries
of Charity, regret this
unfortunate incident.
We will continue caring
for the children as we
have been doing in the
past," Sister Nirmala
said.
While seeking bail on
Wednesday, she told Calcutta's chief
metropolitan magistrate that no evidence
would be suppressed by the charity.
Sister Francesco was said to be "very
repentant" and was resting inside the charity
premises because she was unwell.
"The superior general has taken strong
exception to the incident," Calcutta's The
Telegraph newspaper quoted a source in the
charity as saying.
"She [Sister Francesco] has been advised from
our office to take rest and discontinue duty."
The BBC's Subir Bhaumik in Calcutta says it is
not clear what is going to happen to Sister
Francesco.
He says she could face disciplinary action once
she gets better, or the charity could try for an
out-of-court settlement with Kaviran Mondal
to save the order from embarrassment.
The Missionaries of Charity [allegedly] cares for the
homeless and dying in Calcutta.
PBarker
> MOTHER TERESA NUN TORTURED CHILDREN
> in the Indian city of Calcutta has said that one
> of its nuns was guilty of torturing four children.
+ Golly Gee. Why couldn't one of them been you?
+ Perhaps you would have grown up to be a nice boy
instead of the hideous troll that you are.....
Rich
not clear what is going to happen to Sister
Francesco.
He says she could face disciplinary action once
she gets better, or the charity could try for an
out-of-court settlement with Kaviran Mondal
to save the order from embarrassment.
Perhaps an out of court settlement would be good. wouldn't want to
em-bear-ass the poor poor Nun.
After all she has suffered so much.
Miranda Writes
Wow- the lyricist must have had you for inspiration for the churchtune
' And they'll know we are christians by our love', PB... Such christian
charity! What a fine spokesmodel for the rcc!
M/M
Alan Ferris
>"Jesus H." wrote ...
>> MOTHER TERESA NUN TORTURED CHILDREN
>> The charity set up by the late Mother Teresa
>> in the Indian city of Calcutta has said that one
>> of its nuns was guilty of torturing four children.
>
>+ Golly Gee. Why couldn't one of them been you?
>+ Perhaps you would have grown up to be a nice boy
>instead of the hideous troll that you are.....
Showing your nice side again I see Patrick.
I hope you seriously do not support nuns like this and the one Karen
mentioned.
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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the only sound
the broken bell
THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
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ICQ UIN: 12811297
PBarker
> "PBarker" > wrote ...
> >"Jesus H." wrote ...
> >> MOTHER TERESA NUN TORTURED CHILDREN
> >> The charity set up by the late Mother Teresa
> >> in the Indian city of Calcutta has said that one
> >> of its nuns was guilty of torturing four children.
> >
> >+ Golly Gee. Why couldn't one of them been you?
> >+ Perhaps you would have grown up to be a nice boy
> >instead of the hideous troll that you are.....
> Showing your nice side again I see Patrick.
+ Hey, I am here ta helps ya, Alan.
> I hope you seriously do not support nuns like this and the one Karen
> mentioned.
+ Of course not.
+ I just feel that the people who post these "little" stories
on the RCC newgroup are not always trying to be helpful
to the folks here. It appears to me a kind of "in-your-face"
kind of post. It gives few details, and...
who knows if they are true?
Karen H Jarvis
--
Karen
Growing old is inevitable.
Growing up is still an option.
SumBuny4Me
"Jesus H." <Je...@Hell.org> wrote in message
news:39CA2F15...@sprintmail.com...
>
> While seeking bail on
> Wednesday, she told Calcutta's chief
> metropolitan magistrate that no evidence
> would be suppressed by the charity.
<SNIP>
>
> "The superior general has taken strong
> exception to the incident," Calcutta's The
> Telegraph newspaper quoted a source in the
> charity as saying.
>
> "She [Sister Francesco] has been advised from
> our office to take rest and discontinue duty."
I notice that many people take some kind of pleasure in posting this kind of
stuff to the groups where it will "hurt" the most. Yet these people do not
post about the thousands of other cases worldwide that are committed by
laypersons *not* associated with the church, nor any of the cases that are
committed by people associated with other faiths...."If it bleeds, it leads"
seems appropriate here for this kind of senseationalism.
I also noticed(in the above excerpts) that Not only has this nun been taken
off of her duties concerning children by the superior general of her order,
but the same leader has declared that "no evidence would be suppressed by
the charity" Considering that one of the biggest claims by the type of
people who post this selective articles is that the Church is always guitly
of "cover-ups" in these kinds of incidents, this proves otherwise...
Buny
Karen H Jarvis
NEW DELHI, Sep. 21, 00 (CWNews.com) - Sister Nirmala,
superior general of the Missionaries of Charity (MC) order
founded by Mother Teresa "regrets" the cruel treatment
handed out by a MC nun in Calcutta to four young girls last
week.
"We, the Missionaries of Charity, regret this unfortunate
incident. We will continue caring for the children as we
have been doing in the past," said Sister Nirmala in a
statement on Wednesday reacting to the news of Sister
Francesca-- the sister-in-charge of the Mahatma Gandhi
Welfare Center-- injuring four little girls at the shelter
with a hot knife. While the nun who "definitely overstepped
her bounds" has been asked to take rest and discontinue
duty, the MCs have not made clear what further steps the
Congregation would take against the erring nun.
A criminal case was registered against the nun on September
13 following the complaint by the father of Kavery-- one of
the four girls punished by the nun. According to Kavery,
they were playing inside the center with three other street
children when Sister Francesca came and accused them of
stealing money. She then heated a knife on an electric
heater and pressed it on the hands of the four children.
Reports say police initially refused to register a case
against the well-respected Missionaries of Charity and only
after local residents put pressure on the police was the
case registered. The district court at Alipore granted bail
to the accused on Tuesday after MC superior general Sister
Nirmala appeared in person for the hearing in the court and
executed a bail bond for 5,000 rupees ($110).
PBarker
> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for yourself?
+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
+ You know I am Catholic.
+ I have said so many times.
+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
+ I am one of those Catholics.
+ Yet, I believe.
+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
You have claimed: "Education."
+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
even believe in.
+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
+ Trolls usually do not.
Alan Ferris
>"Alan Ferris" wrote ...
>> "PBarker" > wrote ...
>> >"Jesus H." wrote ...
>> >> MOTHER TERESA NUN TORTURED CHILDREN
>> >> The charity set up by the late Mother Teresa
>> >> in the Indian city of Calcutta has said that one
>> >> of its nuns was guilty of torturing four children.
>> >
>> >+ Golly Gee. Why couldn't one of them been you?
>> >+ Perhaps you would have grown up to be a nice boy
>> >instead of the hideous troll that you are.....
>
>> Showing your nice side again I see Patrick.
>
>+ Hey, I am here ta helps ya, Alan.
You really need to help yourself first. All that hatred will eat you
up.
>> I hope you seriously do not support nuns like this and the one Karen
>> mentioned.
>
>+ Of course not.
>+ I just feel that the people who post these "little" stories
>on the RCC newgroup are not always trying to be helpful
>to the folks here. It appears to me a kind of "in-your-face"
>kind of post. It gives few details, and...
>who knows if they are true?
That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
Zenit as well.
Karen H Jarvis
Alan Ferris
Have you not worked it out yet? Patrick always thinks he knows
everything about everybody. This will be only the first of many false
claims he will make about you!!
Karen H Jarvis
Alan Ferris
I no longer care what Patrick thinks. He has shown himself to be a
person of low standing.
Bob Pease
I think it's insensitive not to check the content for appropriateness before
cross-posting.
As far as Atheists,, Most of the Trollers of this sort of thing are not
really Atheists, but intellectually lazy people who seem to take great
pleaasure of finding minor things to bitch about whilst ignoring the Major
Issues.
Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this is posted by Catholic Apologists in
order to make Anti-Catholics look like idiots.
PBarker <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote in message
news:39cbae36$0$35384$53a6...@news.erinet.com...
Rich
excommunication?
Theodore M. Seeber
> How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> excommunication?
Also a likely outcome of this case.
But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
Ted
--
On this day, the Feast of Hildegard von Bingen
http://www.e3mil.com/church_today/message.asp?message_id=&sec_id=4
Theodore Michael Seeber
Coo! he's the remedial beer.
mailto:see...@aracnet.com
Check out the <A
HREF="http://www.aracnet.com/~seebert>IDIC Home Page!</A>
Try our new Biblical Knowledge Quiz, found <A
HREF="http://www.aracnet.com/~seebert/rpv.html>here!</A>
Blessed are the PeaceMakers, for they shall take flack from both sides
-Unofficial UN motto.
Alan Ferris
>How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
>excommunication?
She still claims she was only doing her best for the children....does
that sound repentant?
It would make a change if the church started to actually kick them
out! It's record so far is that most are not expelled.
Alan Ferris
>On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
>
>> excommunication?
>
>But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
>Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
seriously.
Rose Mary Kelleher
Alan Ferris wrote:
>
> "Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote ...
> >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
> >
> >> How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> >> excommunication?
> >
> >Also a likely outcome of this case.
> >But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
> >Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
>
> It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
> Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
> rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
> removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
> him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
> to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
> seriously.
Alan, do you ever have anything of a positive nature to
contribute? It seems to me all you do is condemn, condemn,
condemn. Isn't there any good news you would like to share
with us? Why not try pointing out positive examples of good
people you think we should all try to imitate? Why don't you
post your favorite prayer - I'd be interested to know what
it is - or tell us about your church and its good points - I
assume it has good points in your mind other than the sheer
fact of its not being Catholic.
So much negativity!
He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced
of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two
people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a
Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee
took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O
God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of
humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like the
tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my
whole income.' But the tax collector stood off at a distance
and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his
breast and prayed, 'Oh God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I
tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one
who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:9-14
Alan Ferris
I tend to get negative when people try and sweep it under the carpet
again. It has happened to often and people are still suffering for
that. Sorry if my hatred for suffering becomes to negative for
people. Shall we truly just sing the praises and ignore the bad.
That is what the church keeps telling people, it is what it keeps
telling the abused.
Many in this group sing the churches praises far better than I. I am
busy making sure that the silent abused are not forgotten as many
would like.
Karen H Jarvis
>of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two
>people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a
>Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee
>took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O
>God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of
>humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like the
>tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my
>whole income.' But the tax collector stood off at a distance
>and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his
>breast and prayed, 'Oh God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I
>tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
>for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one
>who humbles himself will be exalted."
>
>Luke 18:9-14
Errrrr, can you not read? Alan is an atheist. How can he have a
favourite prayer or a church?
Theodore M. Seeber
> "Rich" <kar...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote ...
> >How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> >excommunication?
>
> She still claims she was only doing her best for the children....does
> that sound repentant?
Nope.
> It would make a change if the church started to actually kick them
> out! It's record so far is that most are not expelled.
Most are repentant.
If this one is not, and still isn't repenting for her sins after
confessing the sin, then excommunication is the result (anger IS, after
all, a Mortal Sin that separates us from God).
She needs meditation and the services of her Father Confessor.
And of course, even if she is excommunicated, or forgiven, there's still
the temporal price to pay for her sin. For the priest and nuns with this
problem that I've heard about, that usually means jail time, fines, and
transfer to a different job away from the children that they hurt (and for
the unrepentant ones, away from any children whatsoever).
Rose Mary Kelleher
Alan Ferris wrote:
>
> Rose Mary Kelleher <kell...@ramblingrose.com> wrote ...
> >
> >
> >Alan Ferris wrote:
> >>
> >> "Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote ...
> >> >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> >> >> excommunication?
> >> >
> >> >Also a likely outcome of this case.
> >> >But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
> >> >Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
> >>
> >> It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
> >> Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
> >> rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
> >> removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
> >> him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
> >> to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
> >> seriously.
> >
> >
> >Alan, do you ever have anything of a positive nature to
> >contribute? It seems to me all you do is condemn, condemn,
> >condemn. Isn't there any good news you would like to share
> >with us? Why not try pointing out positive examples of good
> >people you think we should all try to imitate? Why don't you
> >post your favorite prayer - I'd be interested to know what
> >it is - or tell us about your church and its good points - I
> >assume it has good points in your mind other than the sheer
> >fact of its not being Catholic.
> >
> >So much negativity!
>
> I tend to get negative when people try and sweep it under the carpet
> again. It has happened to often and people are still suffering for
> that. Sorry if my hatred for suffering becomes to negative for
> people. Shall we truly just sing the praises and ignore the bad.
> That is what the church keeps telling people, it is what it keeps
> telling the abused.
>
> Many in this group sing the churches praises far better than I. I am
> busy making sure that the silent abused are not forgotten as many
> would like.
And how exactly are your posts preventing child abuse? I
commend your compassion for children, I just don't
understand what you are trying to accomplish here, other
than hurting our feelings by trying to imply that we are
child-abusing devils. We've all agreed that child abuse is
wrong and should always be reported. What else do you want
from us? If you are mad at some Austrian cardinal why don't
you complain to him?
p.s. Didn't mean to jump all over your case before. I'm
getting cranky which means it's probably time to log off...
Rose Mary Kelleher
> >He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced
> >of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two
> >people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a
> >Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee
> >took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O
> >God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of
> >humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like the
> >tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my
> >whole income.' But the tax collector stood off at a distance
> >and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his
> >breast and prayed, 'Oh God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I
> >tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
> >for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one
> >who humbles himself will be exalted."
> >
> >Luke 18:9-14
>
> Errrrr, can you not read? Alan is an atheist. How can he have a
> favourite prayer or a church?
Oops. My bad.
Alan Ferris
>
>> "Rich" <kar...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote ...
>> >excommunication?
>>
>> that sound repentant?
>
>Nope.
>
>> It would make a change if the church started to actually kick them
>> out! It's record so far is that most are not expelled.
>
>Most are repentant.
>If this one is not, and still isn't repenting for her sins after
>confessing the sin, then excommunication is the result (anger IS, after
>all, a Mortal Sin that separates us from God).
>She needs meditation and the services of her Father Confessor.
>
>And of course, even if she is excommunicated, or forgiven, there's still
>the temporal price to pay for her sin. For the priest and nuns with this
>problem that I've heard about, that usually means jail time, fines, and
>transfer to a different job away from the children that they hurt (and for
>the unrepentant ones, away from any children whatsoever).
>Ted
Whether they repent or not they should be permanently removed from the
care of children. Recent cases show why that is. That was the
biggest problem the church had. If a priest or nun repented they
allowed them back again....often to re-offend.
Currently the church seems to only remove priests and nuns when they
contradict church teachings. If they abuse, it seems that they are
allowed to remain. Now what sort of message is that sending people?
That is the biggest problem. The church currently is not sending a
clear message that abuse is wrong.
Recently in the release of Father Hill to a secure unit, another
priest said that he should keep his title of Father as he had done
nothing to break his vows. Now I and many are struggling to
understand how a Priest cannot be breaking his vows when he has abused
children. Again with messages like this being presented by the
church, is it little wonder that people get upset?
Theodore M. Seeber
> "Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote ...
> >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
> >
> >> How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> >> excommunication?
> >
> >Also a likely outcome of this case.
> >But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
> >Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
>
> It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
> Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
> rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
> removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
> him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
> to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
> seriously.
Actually, from what I've seen of history, it's the correct procedure.
Formal excommunication requires a tribunal, typically that tribunal is
held in Rome.
One method that some have used lately to avoid excommunication has been to
avoid the trip (miss his plane, as the Feeneyites put it), but sooner or
later the tribunal takes place, and it can take place in abscense of the
accused.
I would point out that if we were taking it LIGHTLY, the tribunal would
have automatically declared the testimoney of the children to be the only
evidence, and excommunicated him on the spot. (after all, to those crying
out for revenge, whether or not the plantif is *repentant* makes no
difference, where in a tribunal, it's the only evidence that truly
matters).
The problem is differing views of what justice demands.
By Canon Law, Justice demands punishment, but not punishment by the
Church, rather by secular authority. Excommunication is not considered
punishment, it's rather an indication that a person has shown, by their
actions or words, to no longer be in communion with Rome.
Child abuse definatively counts as an action not in communion with Rome.
But Rome, like the God-man who rules her, must forgive all repentant
sinners. No matter how awfull the crime.
Theodore M. Seeber
>
>
> Alan Ferris wrote:
> >
> > "Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote ...
> > >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
> > >
> > >> How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> > >> excommunication?
> > >
> > >Also a likely outcome of this case.
> > >But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
> > >Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
> >
> > It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
> > Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
> > rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
> > removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
> > him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
> > to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
> > seriously.
>
>
> Alan, do you ever have anything of a positive nature to
> contribute? It seems to me all you do is condemn, condemn,
> condemn. Isn't there any good news you would like to share
> with us? Why not try pointing out positive examples of good
> people you think we should all try to imitate? Why don't you
> post your favorite prayer - I'd be interested to know what
> it is - or tell us about your church and its good points - I
> assume it has good points in your mind other than the sheer
> fact of its not being Catholic.
Ferris is a atheist. I doubt he has any favorite prayer at all. Prayer
to him is mere superstition. As is scripture. So don't waste your time
on that. It most certainly is proper to show that he's condemning the
sinner instead of the sin,however.
Theodore M. Seeber
> people can't get excommunicated for child abuse.
> Rich <kar...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:39cbc...@dns.sd54.bc.ca...
> > How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
> > excommunication?
Correct, but they can be excommunicated for inappropriate
violence. Remember your seven Mortal Sins, and see if you can guess which
one this Nun is guilty of (considering that she burned a child's hand on a
hot plate in a fit of anger).
dotcom
<kjne...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote: ...
> >"Karen H Jarvis"
> >> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for yourself?
> >
> >+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
> >+ You know I am Catholic.
> >+ I have said so many times.
> >+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
> >+ I am one of those Catholics.
> >+ Yet, I believe.
> >
> >+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
> >Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
> >abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
> >in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
> >You have claimed: "Education."
> >+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
> >educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
> >even believe in.
> >+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
> >+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
> >+ Trolls usually do not.
> >
> Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
I'm probably the "professed atheist". As far as I know, I'm the only one
here who "professes" atheism. It's in the sig, after all.
OTOH, I don't post these news stories, so I don't know *who* he's
talking about.
--
dotcom, off...
yes, I am an atheist, and no, I don't want to hear about jeeezus
e-mail about my newsgroup posts may be posted to that newsgroup
There is no god worth our worship. - Martin Schlottmann
dotcom
<dot...@alltel.net> wrote:
Oops, my bad. I forgot that Alan Ferris is also the proud operator of an
atheist sig.
> OTOH, I don't post these news stories, so I don't know *who* he's
> talking about.
I guess he's talking about Alan. Another case of "open mouth, insert
foot, engage transmission" on my case. Sorry about that.
PBarker
> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
> Zenit as well
+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
+ Where are the links.
+ I want to see the full article, again.
PBarker
> Karen H Jarvis <wrote ...
> >"PBarker" wrote: ...
> >>"Karen H Jarvis"
> >>> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for yourself?
> >>
> >>+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
> >>+ You know I am Catholic.
> >>+ I have said so many times.
> >>+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
> >>+ I am one of those Catholics.
> >>+ Yet, I believe.
> >>
> >>+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
> >>Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
> >>abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
> >>in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
> >>You have claimed: "Education."
> >>+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
> >>educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
> >>even believe in.
> >>+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
> >>+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
> >>+ Trolls usually do not.
> >>
> >Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>
> everything about everybody. This will be only the first of many false
> claims he will make about you!!
+ Alan - you didn't tell me.
+ Karen is a believer?
+ Well, I'll be.....
PBarker
+ Really?
+ Hmmmm.
+ Well, well, well....
+ I guess I assumed you and alan shared the same interests.
+ Wow, I may have goofed.......
+ Yowzer.... don't tell me I have made a 3rd mistake this year?
+ And it is only September?
PBarker
> Does he still think we are the same person?
+ You certainly have no sense of humor, do you?
+ And no, that is not an insult.
+ I'll let you know - when I decide to insult you.
PBarker
> I no longer care what Patrick thinks. He has shown himself to be a
> person of low standing.
+ Alan...
+ You are starting to hurt my feelings....
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+ Naahhhh! I was lying.
+ I forgive you.
PBarker
> Recently in the release of Father Hill to a secure unit, another
> priest said that he should keep his title of Father as he had done
> nothing to break his vows. Now I and many are struggling to
> understand how a Priest cannot be breaking his vows when he has abused
> children. Again with messages like this being presented by the
+ Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
becomes a priest. Once you have rung a bell, you cannot unring it.
Bob Pease
Edward Croteau
"Alan Ferris" <xa...@mistral.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4kfnss8tomsdgeuuv...@4ax.com...
| Karen H Jarvis <kjne...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote ...
| >"PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote: ...
| >>"Karen H Jarvis"
| >>> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for yourself?
| >>
| >>+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
| >>+ You know I am Catholic.
| >>+ I have said so many times.
| >>+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
| >>+ I am one of those Catholics.
| >>+ Yet, I believe.
| >>
| >>+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
| >>Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
| >>abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
| >>in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
| >>You have claimed: "Education."
| >>+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
| >>educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
| >>even believe in.
| >>+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
| >>+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
| >>+ Trolls usually do not.
| >>
|
| everything about everybody. This will be only the first of many false
| claims he will make about you!!
|
| Alan Ferris
| eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
| EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
I'm sure he will not be misaken about you..........
Ed.................(OGTeck)
Edward Croteau
|
| person of low standing.
|
|
| Alan Ferris
| eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
| EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
From the lying atheist...........
Ed...............(OGTeck)
Bob Pease
scandal to the Church or its leaders.
to the best of my knowledge, you can commit a lot of other types of Mortal
Sins, but still be regarded as a sinner, worthy of repentance.
Canon law is very specific on which sins these are, and what the penalty is.
The confessor has the right withhold absolution if he thinks there is no
purpose of amendment. but this is not the same as excommunication.
In a way, these regulations restrict ( but by no means prevent) political
abuse where Canon Law is highly regarded.
Without this, every priest would be excommunicating his political rivals for
whimsical charges.
I dread a system where "Inappropriate violence" is a grounds for civil or
spiritual penalties , when Inappropriate is defined by the accuser.
Theodore M. Seeber <see...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.000922...@shell1.aracnet.com...
> On 23 Sep 2000, Bob Pease wrote:
>
Karen H Jarvis
a person who has broken a vow be laicised?
arjay
> "Alan Ferris" > wrote
> > Recently in the release of Father Hill to a secure unit, another
> > priest said that he should keep his title of Father as he had done
> > nothing to break his vows. Now I and many are struggling to
> > understand how a Priest cannot be breaking his vows when he has abused
> > children. Again with messages like this being presented by the
> > church, is it little wonder that people get upset?
>
> + Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
> becomes a priest. Once you have rung a bell, you cannot unring it.
No action can be undone.
Not even the abuses of these sanctified offenders.
Their bells are jangling, sir. They have rung a few too many.
arjay
arjay
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rose Mary Kelleher wrote:
> > Alan Ferris wrote:
> > > >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> excommunication?
> > > >
> > > >But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
> > > >Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
> > >
> > > It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
> > > Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
> > > rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
> > > removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
> > > him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
> > > to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
> > > seriously.
> >
> > Alan, do you ever have anything of a positive nature to
> > contribute? It seems to me all you do is condemn, condemn,
> > condemn. Isn't there any good news you would like to share
> > with us? Why not try pointing out positive examples of good
> > people you think we should all try to imitate? Why don't you
> > post your favorite prayer - I'd be interested to know what
> > it is - or tell us about your church and its good points - I
> > assume it has good points in your mind other than the sheer
> > fact of its not being Catholic.
>
> Ferris is a atheist. I doubt he has any favorite prayer at all. Prayer
> to him is mere superstition. As is scripture. So don't waste your time
> on that. It most certainly is proper to show that he's condemning the
> sinner instead of the sin,however.
"Condemning the sinner instead of the sin"?
Interesting concept. I'd like to know how one achieves that.
Perhaps it requires constant practice in compartmentalized thinking. Some of us
who have left the RCC call that "doublethink." Most of us who post from arc hav
e lost the trick of it. I doubt many of us regret the loss.
Condemning sin in the abstract is a lovely, antiseptic, safe hobby. You needn't
deal with a flesh-and-blood person as a perpetrator. You needn't deal with the
tears, or blood, shed by a victim. Just mouth a platitude, and declare your
responsibility to fight the named evil fulfilled!
As one of my favourite poets wrote, 'How can you tell the dancer from the
dance?'
Yeats might also have said that the dance cannot exist without a dancer, but
that would have spoiled the poem.
arjay
> Ted
arjay
> "Alan Ferris" wrote
> > it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
> > Zenit as well
>
> + I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
> + Where are the links.
> + I want to see the full article, again.
Then count that as your /fourth/ mistake this year -- and it's still only
September.
It's obvious to all but trolls that the link below is not a connection to a news
story of article.
Why, even some trolls have been known to understand that much.
Heve you ever heard of Deja.com?
Find this thread there and trace it back to where the link was first posted.
arjay
> > Alan Ferris> eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
> > EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > When the only colour is black -
> > the only sound
> > the broken bell
> > THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
arjay
> "Karen H Jarvis" <> wrote
> > Does he still think we are the same person?
>
> + And no, that is not an insult.
> + I'll let you know - when I decide to insult you.
Are you so inept that you must label your insults as such?
arjay
Karen H Jarvis
>"Alan Ferris" wrote
>> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
>> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
>> Zenit as well
>
>+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
>+ Where are the links.
>+ I want to see the full article, again.
>
Try your own search, if you are capable of performing one.
Alan Ferris
>
>
>Alan Ferris wrote:
>>
>> Rose Mary Kelleher <kell...@ramblingrose.com> wrote ...
>> >
>> >
>> >Alan Ferris wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote ...
>> >> >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Rich wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> How about finding out if the Nun is repentant and if not, then
>> >> >> excommunication?
>> >> >
>> >> >Also a likely outcome of this case.
>> >> >But that's a matter for her Father Confessor, or perhaps even her
>> >> >Archbishop, but certainly not a matter for the Pope.
>> >>
>> >> It is a bad example though when the pope welcomes the disgraced
>> >> Cardinal from Austria. After years of bishops complaints, it took a
>> >> rebellion by the faithful to get the Vatican to act. They then
>> >> removed the Cardinal from office. Next we see the pope is inviting
>> >> him to the Vatican. This has not gone down well in Austria and tends
>> >> to suggest that the church is still not taking the abuse of others
>> >> seriously.
>> >
>> >
>> >Alan, do you ever have anything of a positive nature to
>> >contribute? It seems to me all you do is condemn, condemn,
>> >condemn. Isn't there any good news you would like to share
>> >with us? Why not try pointing out positive examples of good
>> >people you think we should all try to imitate? Why don't you
>> >post your favorite prayer - I'd be interested to know what
>> >it is - or tell us about your church and its good points - I
>> >assume it has good points in your mind other than the sheer
>> >fact of its not being Catholic.
>> >
>>
>> I tend to get negative when people try and sweep it under the carpet
>> again. It has happened to often and people are still suffering for
>> that. Sorry if my hatred for suffering becomes to negative for
>> people. Shall we truly just sing the praises and ignore the bad.
>> That is what the church keeps telling people, it is what it keeps
>> telling the abused.
>>
>> Many in this group sing the churches praises far better than I. I am
>> busy making sure that the silent abused are not forgotten as many
>> would like.
>
>And how exactly are your posts preventing child abuse? I
>commend your compassion for children, I just don't
>understand what you are trying to accomplish here, other
>than hurting our feelings by trying to imply that we are
>child-abusing devils. We've all agreed that child abuse is
>wrong and should always be reported. What else do you want
>from us? If you are mad at some Austrian cardinal why don't
>you complain to him?
If people stop trying to brush abuse under the carpet then there will
be more chance of stopping it happening again. If I can get people
stop trying to say it is just anti-catholic press, or if I can get
people to question their diocese to ensure that it is treated openly
and responsibly then I believe I can do something. But it is exactly
people like you who I am trying to reach. You know abuse is wrong,
but you fail to realise that trying to cover up the abuse, or deny it
is just as wrong.
You talk about anger, what of the anger of the abused when their pain
and suffering is just brushed off, often without even a simple
apology. But it seems the church is winning in managing to make this
not about the abused but managing to make people think it is either
anti-catholic or just bad apples. Ignoring the whole issues raised by
the abused and the treatment they received.
Why should you worry about an Austrian Cardinal? Are not the Austrian
catholics you brothers and sisters. Is their pain and suffering not
something to be cared about? It seems the pope thought otherwise.
There was much anguish in the Austrian church at the inaction of the
Vatican, then to top it the pope invites the disgraced ex-cardinal to
dinner at the Vatican. Can you not understand how that would make
those who suffered at his hands feel? Can you not understand their
anger and their pain when the leader of their church acts this way?
>p.s. Didn't mean to jump all over your case before. I'm
>getting cranky which means it's probably time to log off...
That is why I left this answer to the morning.
I am seriously wanting catholics to question their bishops and
cardinal about the way they treat the abused. It seems everybody
agrees that it is wrong and bad, yet nobody will apologise to them and
nobody listens to their complaints. Why is that?
I realise this is often an embarrassment to the church, but they must
realise that their embarrassment is minor compared to the suffering of
the abused. Putting the good appearance of the church before these
children and adults is wrong. That is what I hope to get people to
see. For if it continues then how will you say sorry to those who may
suffer through inaction to right the wrongs?
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the only colour is black -
the only sound
the broken bell
THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Ferris
Maybe he is just an insulting person and therefore needs to
distinguish them somehow.
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Behold, behold,
The Lamb of God
As it skips and hops.
I know that soon
The Lamb of God
Will be the Lamb of chops Spike Milligan
Alan Ferris
>"Alan Ferris" <> wrote ...
>> Karen H Jarvis <wrote ...
>> >"PBarker" wrote: ...
>> >>"Karen H Jarvis"
>> >>
>> >>+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
>> >>+ You know I am Catholic.
>> >>+ I have said so many times.
>> >>+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
>> >>+ I am one of those Catholics.
>> >>+ Yet, I believe.
>> >>
>> >>+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
>> >>Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
>> >>abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
>> >>in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
>> >>You have claimed: "Education."
>> >>+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
>> >>educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
>> >>even believe in.
>> >>+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
>> >>+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
>> >>+ Trolls usually do not.
>> >>
>> >Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>>
>> Have you not worked it out yet? Patrick always thinks he knows
>> everything about everybody. This will be only the first of many false
>> claims he will make about you!!
>
>+ Karen is a believer?
>+ Well, I'll be.....
Why should I tell you.....you seem to like telling others what they
are.
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the only colour is black -
the only sound
the broken bell
THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
Alan Ferris
>In article <icfnsscfmh5r0qdtn...@4ax.com>, Karen H Jarvis
><kjne...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote: ...
>> >"Karen H Jarvis"
>> >> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for yourself?
>> >
>> >+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
>> >+ You know I am Catholic.
>> >+ I have said so many times.
>> >+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
>> >+ I am one of those Catholics.
>> >+ Yet, I believe.
>> >
>> >+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
>> >Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
>> >abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
>> >in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
>> >You have claimed: "Education."
>> >+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
>> >educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
>> >even believe in.
>> >+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
>> >+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
>> >+ Trolls usually do not.
>> >
>> Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>
>here who "professes" atheism. It's in the sig, after all.
Me to. I am a professed atheist, though you would be amazed how many
fail to spot it in my sig :)
>OTOH, I don't post these news stories, so I don't know *who* he's
>talking about.
Apparently in this case it was Jesus H. who crossposted this story.
Alan Ferris
>atheist sig.
>
>> talking about.
>
>foot, engage transmission" on my case. Sorry about that.
No, he was talking about Karen, who did not post the article anyway.
This crosspost was started by one Jesus H.
Alan Ferris
>"Karen H Jarvis" wrote ...
>> Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>
>+ Hmmmm.
>+ Well, well, well....
>+ I guess I assumed you and alan shared the same interests.
>+ Wow, I may have goofed.......
>+ Yowzer.... don't tell me I have made a 3rd mistake this year?
>+ And it is only September?
<CHOKE!!!> Your halo slipped again Patrick.....you certainly know how
to tell a porky!
Alan Ferris
>> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
>> Zenit as well
>
>+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
>+ Where are the links.
>+ I want to see the full article, again.
The news article Posted by Karen (not crossposted)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_931000/931242.stm
The News article from this thread, crossposted by Jesus H.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_931000/931209.stm
Does that help you Patrick. Are you know aware that you are ranting
at Karen even about an article she did not post?
Alan Ferris
>to him is mere superstition. As is scripture. So don't waste your time
>on that. It most certainly is proper to show that he's condemning the
>sinner instead of the sin,however.
I am condemning all those that watch the sins taking place and do
nothing. I am condemning all those that want to hide the
embarrassment or deny the suffering that others have reached. Whilst
such actions still occur, there is a good chance that more people will
suffer, both at the hands of the abusers and at the hands of those who
deny them and refuse them help. Most simply want an apology. Why is
that so much to ask for? The church asked for forgiveness, as one
person stated, how can I forgive when they are not sorry?
Alan Ferris
>> priest said that he should keep his title of Father as he had done
>> nothing to break his vows. Now I and many are struggling to
>> understand how a Priest cannot be breaking his vows when he has abused
>> children. Again with messages like this being presented by the
>> church, is it little wonder that people get upset?
>
>+ Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
>becomes a priest. Once you have rung a bell, you cannot unring it.
So all those ex-priests are not ex-?? So there is no excommunication
for priests? Care to explain this more Patrick. Care to tell it to
those priests who the church has thrown out?
Rose Mary Kelleher
Alan Ferris wrote:
<snipped old stuff>
That is total BS. I have repeatedly stated that if I were to
learn of abuse I would do all in my power to stop it, not
"brush it under the carpet." Now I ask you, what more do you
want of me? You will never be satisfied until I renounce my
church altogether. I see that now.
> You talk about anger, what of the anger of the abused when their pain
> and suffering is just brushed off, often without even a simple
> apology.
You mean, like Irish people whose death by
government-imposed starvation was blamed on a potato virus,
or Indian rebels who were strapped to cannons which were
then fired? I don't see you demanding apologies from Tony
Blair for the sins of jolly old England. Repent for your own
country's transgressions before shaking your finger at me,
you sanctimonious, kidney-pie-eating hypocrite.
But it seems the church is winning in managing to make this
> not about the abused but managing to make people think it is either
> anti-catholic or just bad apples. Ignoring the whole issues raised by
> the abused and the treatment they received.
Why aren't you pestering Bill Clinton for an apology for the
thousands of public school students who are molested each
year? It happens all the time, and the school administrators
try to hush it up. Gee, I guess the entire US government is
just one evil conspiracy to molest children.
>
> Why should you worry about an Austrian Cardinal? Are not the Austrian
> catholics you brothers and sisters. Is their pain and suffering not
> something to be cared about? It seems the pope thought otherwise.
> There was much anguish in the Austrian church at the inaction of the
> Vatican, then to top it the pope invites the disgraced ex-cardinal to
> dinner at the Vatican. Can you not understand how that would make
> those who suffered at his hands feel? Can you not understand their
> anger and their pain when the leader of their church acts this way?
Oh, please. Are Protestants the world over responsible for
South African racism? Should the Archbishop of Canterbury
rend his garments after every firebombing of a Catholic home
in Northern Ireland? Or...gee...might THOSE be LOCAL
matters?
> >p.s. Didn't mean to jump all over your case before. I'm
> >getting cranky which means it's probably time to log off...
>
> That is why I left this answer to the morning.
And now in the light of day your agenda is even more
transparent.
> I am seriously wanting catholics to question their bishops and
> cardinal about the way they treat the abused. It seems everybody
> agrees that it is wrong and bad, yet nobody will apologise to them and
> nobody listens to their complaints. Why is that?
Because it is obvious you don't really give a shit about
child abuse. You just want to paint Catholics as child
abusers, and you expoit the plight of the abused for your
own purposes. If you really care about a particular instance
of child abuse by a clergyman, contact members of that
archdiocese and start a local grassroots protest. Do some
legwork. But that's not as much fun as lecturing the entire
Catholic community on compassion, and setting yourself up as
some kind of hero.
> I realise this is often an embarrassment to the church, but they must
> realise that their embarrassment is minor compared to the suffering of
> the abused. Putting the good appearance of the church
I like how you extrapolate from "a school in Scotland" to
"the church" in general. Guess what. There is a word for
actively scouting out instances of bad behavior committed by
a particular religious or ethnic group to support your
thesis that the entire group is bad. It's called BIGOTRY.
before these
> children and adults is wrong. That is what I hope to get people to
> see. For if it continues then how will you say sorry to those who may
> suffer through inaction to right the wrongs?
How will *I* say sorry? How do you know I'm not a social
worker who spends all day every day advocating for abused
and neglected children? But of course that wouldn't matter
to you - I'm guilty by virtue of being Catholic, and you are
absolved - despite your failure to really do anything useful
- by not being Catholic. And you say you're not attacking
me. Know what? I am finished defending myself to you who
will never be satisfied.
Rose Mary Kelleher
How can *you* forgive *us* for our supposed inaction? What,
pray tell, are *you* doing to help abused children? Are you
investigating cases? Are you volunteering at the local
shelter? Are you manning a child abuse hotline? Are you
arguing their cases in court? Organizing fundraisers? As far
as I can tell all *you* do is lecture the innocent to give
yourself a reason to feel superior. How sad.
PBarker
> I'm probably the "professed atheist". As far as I know, I'm the only one
> here who "professes" atheism. It's in the sig, after all.
>
> talking about.
+ I was speaking of Alan Ferris.
+ I should have been more specific.
PBarker
> As one of my favourite poets wrote, 'How can you tell the dancer from the
> dance?'
+ Now, that was the best post that I've read today.
+ I really like that.
PBarker
> >"Alan Ferris" > wrote
> >> Recently in the release of Father Hill to a secure unit, another
> >> priest said that he should keep his title of Father as he had done
> >> nothing to break his vows. Now I and many are struggling to
> >> understand how a Priest cannot be breaking his vows when he has abused
> >> children. Again with messages like this being presented by the
> >> church, is it little wonder that people get upset?
> >
> >+ Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
> >becomes a priest. Once you have rung a bell, you cannot unring it.
> >
> a person who has broken a vow be laicised?
+ I did answer the question.
+ Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
becomes a priest. ALWAYS. Once you have been baptized, you
cannot be unbaptized.
+ If a priest were found guilty of a crime, he should pay
the penalty for that crime.
PBarker
> PBarker wrote ...
> > "Alan Ferris" wrote
> > > it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
> > > Zenit as well
> >
> > + I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
> > + Where are the links.
> > + I want to see the full article, again.
>
> September.
> It's obvious to all but trolls that the link below is not a connection to
a news
> story of article.
> Why, even some trolls have been known to understand that much.
>
> Heve you ever heard of Deja.com?
> Find this thread there and trace it back to where the link was first
posted.
+ My goodness, RJ.
+ How cruel you can be.....
+ Since you feel it is obvious to all but trolls, you therefore
have labeled me a troll? Hmmm.
+ And you say that some trolls an understand connections.
+ Well, sir, to put your mind at ease, I am no troll.
+ I am who I am. If you would like a comprehensive resume
of exactly who I am, I can oblige.
+ What you see here is what you got.
+ I speak my mind, tell the truth as I see it, and don't pull
any punches.
+ Have I heard of Deja.com? Yes. Lots o folks speak of
it and from what I can gather, it is a very useful tool to
find past articles.
+ Do I know how to use it? Nope.
+ Do I wish to learn how? Nope.
+ I speak in the here and now. I don't do a lot of
research on my ideas, because I present them as my ideas.
I don't save my old posts. I don't recall what I said last week.
I don't usually care what I said, since I know it was the truth at
the time that I spoke it.
+ I take things pretty much literally. Unless I see confusion
and irony, or deception and secret motives. When I see these,
I usually calls em like I sees em.
+ You say to find a thread and trace it back?
+ I have no idea what you are saying.
+ That is like me telling you to lay an utyfo
and broil the doogingy. Means nothing to me.
+ If I ever give someone a reference, I always try
to print it out carefully and give an http/www.xyz
to it so that all you have to do is click on it to find
the exact reference to which I was speaking.
+ Do not confuse my lack of USENET knowledge
on my lack of fundamental knowledge of man, my religion,
or the world. You would be disappointed.
PBarker
> PBarker wrote ...
> > > Does he still think we are the same person?
> >
> > + You certainly have no sense of humor, do you?
> > + And no, that is not an insult.
> > + I'll let you know - when I decide to insult you.
>
> Are you so inept that you must label your insults as such?
+ Ummmm. Nope.
+ Our esteemed colleague - Mrs Karen - has a difficult time
in determining when I am insulting her. She has no sense of
humour and she has asked repeatedly in the past why I was
insulting her, when I wasn't. Now, I just tell her when I am
insulting her. That way, she doesn't get all confused.
PBarker
> No action can be undone.
> Not even the abuses of these sanctified offenders.
> Their bells are jangling, sir. They have rung a few too many.
+ Yes.
+ And war is bad. And driving too fast is bad. And drinking to excess
is bad. And cheating on your spouse is bad. And floods are bad. And
tornadoes killed that man in Xenia on Wednesday. And violence on TV
is out of control. And the price of gas goes up.
+ But then, there are rainbows, cures for sickness, the trees turning
from green to yellow to red, the soft patter of rain on your crops, a
great book, great music or an interesting thought on dance.
+ Which should we spend our preponderance of time on?
+ I choose rainbows and dance.
+ But then, I am a happy person.
PBarker
> "PBarker" <> wrote: ...
> >"Alan Ferris" wrote
> >> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
> >> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
> >> Zenit as well
> >
> >+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
> >+ Where are the links.
> >+ I want to see the full article, again.
> >
> Try your own search, if you are capable of performing one.
+ Hmmmm.
+ Mrs Karen....
+ Do you always like to find reason to talk with me?
+ Do you really like me that much?
+ Oh - let me explain something to you.
+ Alan specifically said above:
> >> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
> >> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
> >> Zenit as well
+ And I responded that I couldn't find the links.
+ Perhaps I just don't know how to find the links.
+ When he mentioned "Zenit" that is a new word to me.
+ Since I am still lernin all this 'puter stuff, I tries
to figure out whatchu tokkin bout.
+ Oh - and no.... I am not capable of performing
a search. I just don't know how. I also don't know
the chemical equation of certain rocket fuels. But,
that hasn't harmed me by knowing or not knowing
it much in the past either. A full wave rectifier still
blows my mind, as does a three way switch. I can
figure them out on paper, but --- really -- does it make
me a better person? I don't think so.
Pied Piper
wayward teens that severly abused their charges. Stop promulgating your
Catholic hate Karen and crawl back under your rock.
Pax
"PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote in message
news:39cc1f09$0$34967$53a6...@news.erinet.com...
> "Alan Ferris" <> wrote ...
> > Karen H Jarvis <wrote ...
> > >"PBarker" wrote: ...
> > >>"Karen H Jarvis"
> > >>> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for
yourself?
> > >>
> > >>+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
> > >>+ You know I am Catholic.
> > >>+ I have said so many times.
> > >>+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
> > >>+ I am one of those Catholics.
> > >>+ Yet, I believe.
> > >>
> > >>+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
> > >>Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
> > >>abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
> > >>in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
> > >>You have claimed: "Education."
> > >>+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
> > >>educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
> > >>even believe in.
> > >>+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
> > >>+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
> > >>+ Trolls usually do not.
> > >>
> > >Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
> >
Miranda Writes
<kell...@ramblingrose.com> wrote:
> Alan Ferris wrote:
>
> <snipped old stuff>
>
> > >> I tend to get negative when people try and sweep it under the carpet
> > >> again. It has happened to often and people are still suffering for
> > >> that. Sorry if my hatred for suffering becomes to negative for
> > >> people. Shall we truly just sing the praises and ignore the bad.
> > >> That is what the church keeps telling people, it is what it keeps
> > >> telling the abused.
> > >>
> > >> Many in this group sing the churches praises far better than I. I am
> > >> busy making sure that the silent abused are not forgotten as many
> You talk about anger, what of the anger of the abused when their pain
> > and suffering is just brushed off, often without even a simple
> > apology.
>
> You mean, like Irish people whose death by
> government-imposed starvation was blamed on a potato virus,
> or Indian rebels who were strapped to cannons which were
> then fired? I don't see you demanding apologies from Tony
> Blair for the sins of jolly old England. Repent for your own
> country's transgressions before shaking your finger at me,
> you sanctimonious, kidney-pie-eating hypocrite.
Everybody serenade Rose Mary:
" And they'll know she's a christian by her love, by her love
yes, they'll know she's a christian by her love".
Hey Rose Mary- you seem really bent out of shape about the
kidney pie. Are you a fellow vegetarian?
M/M
"Dr. Laura, I am considering moving myself and my daughters in with my
pedofile, atheist, brother in an attempt to convert him the
old-fashioned way back to heterosexuality. Is it immoral to do so
without marrying him first?" - Pistol. describing the ultimate call to
the show.
PBarker
> "PBarker" > wrote ...
> >+ Alan - you didn't tell me.
> >+ Karen is a believer?
> >+ Well, I'll be.....
>
> are.
+ Well, Alan, Mrs Karen has always backed you
up on every single issue. She almost seems like she
and you think with the same mind. I have (laughingly)
accused you of being the same person. She and you
have your pictures side by side on your website.
You are a professed atheist. It was reasonable to assume
she had the same beliefs on God.
PBarker
> <CHOKE!!!> Your halo slipped again Patrick.....you certainly know how
> to tell a porky!
+ Hey, when I am wrong - completely wrong about something,
I certainly don't mind admitting it. It just happens so infrequently,
that I get surprised by it when it happens.
+ You know, I thought I had made an error last December,
but I found out I had erred in my assumption of erring. Was
that wrong of me? Should I apologize to maself?
PBarker
> "PBarker" wrote ...
> >"Alan Ferris" wrote
> >> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
> >> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
> >> Zenit as well
> >
> >+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
> >+ Where are the links.
> >+ I want to see the full article, again.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_931000/931242.stm
+ Thank you.
+ I clicked on it and I read the article fully.
+ I appreciate your assistance.
> The News article from this thread, crossposted by Jesus H.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_931000/931209.stm
+ Ah, I clicked on this one and read it also.
+ Thank you.
> Does that help you Patrick. Are you know aware that you are ranting
> at Karen even about an article she did not post?
+ That helps me tremendously.
+ I don't believe I was ranting.
+ If you feel I was, then you will have to forgive me
as I forgive you for your invalid "ranting" thoughts.
+ I do appreciate your http:/doobers above.
+ I would never know where to look without your kind assistance.
Karen H Jarvis
>"arjay" wrote ...
>> PBarker wrote ...
me?
Karen H Jarvis
>"Alan Ferris" < wrote ...
>> "PBarker" wrote ...
Karen H Jarvis
>
>"Alan Ferris" <xa...@mistral.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8ognss4e896q0o82n...@4ax.com...
>| Karen H Jarvis <kjne...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote ...
>| >Alan Ferris <xa...@mistral.co.uk> wrote: ...
>| >>Karen H Jarvis <kjne...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote ...
>| >>>"PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote: ...
>| >>>>"Karen H Jarvis"
>| >>>>> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for
>yourself?
>| >>>>
>| >>>>+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
>| >>>>+ You know I am Catholic.
>| >>>>+ I have said so many times.
>| >>>>+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
>| >>>>+ I am one of those Catholics.
>| >>>>+ Yet, I believe.
>| >>>>
>| >>>>+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
>| >>>>Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
>| >>>>abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
>| >>>>in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
>| >>>>You have claimed: "Education."
>| >>>>+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
>| >>>>educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
>| >>>>even believe in.
>| >>>>+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
>| >>>>+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
>| >>>>+ Trolls usually do not.
>| >>>>
>| >>>Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>| >>
>| >>Have you not worked it out yet? Patrick always thinks he knows
>| >>everything about everybody. This will be only the first of many false
>| >>claims he will make about you!!
>| >
>|
>| person of low standing.
>|
>|
>| --
>| Alan Ferris
>| eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
>| EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
>
>
>Ed...............(OGTeck)
>
Yup, from the atheist lying in the bath!
Karen H Jarvis
>"Karen H Jarvis" <> wrote
>> Does he still think we are the same person?
>
>+ And no, that is not an insult.
>+ I'll let you know - when I decide to insult you.
>
Karen H Jarvis
>
>"Alan Ferris" <xa...@mistral.co.uk> wrote in message
>| >>
>| >>+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
>| >>+ You know I am Catholic.
>| >>+ I have said so many times.
>| >>+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
>| >>+ I am one of those Catholics.
>| >>+ Yet, I believe.
>| >>
>| >>+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
>| >>Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
>| >>abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
>| >>in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
>| >>You have claimed: "Education."
>| >>+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
>| >>educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
>| >>even believe in.
>| >>+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
>| >>+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
>| >>+ Trolls usually do not.
>| >>
>| >Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>|
>| Have you not worked it out yet? Patrick always thinks he knows
>| everything about everybody. This will be only the first of many false
>| claims he will make about you!!
>|
>| Alan Ferris
>| eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
>| EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
>
>
>Ed.................(OGTeck)
>
Of course not!! The Ferrit is cute and cuddly!
Karen H Jarvis
>In article <dotcom-CE454C....@enews.newsguy.com>, dotcom
><dot...@alltel.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> > "PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote: ...
>> > >"Karen H Jarvis"
>> > >> Do you only believe things that you experience? Or see for yourself?
>> > >
>> > >+ Hmmmm, was that a trick question?
>> > >+ You know I am Catholic.
>> > >+ I have said so many times.
>> > >+ Most of us Catholics have never seen Jesus for ourselves.
>> > >+ I am one of those Catholics.
>> > >+ Yet, I believe.
>> > >
>> > >+ When a professed atheist lurks around on a Roman Catholic
>> > >Church newsgroup, and posts stories about nuns who may have
>> > >abused some children, I just have to wonder to myself: "Why
>> > >in the world drives this person to do this?" I have asked you.
>> > >You have claimed: "Education."
>> > >+ Then I wonder why you feel you need to be the official
>> > >educator of nun child abusers on a newsgroup that you don't
>> > >even believe in.
>> > >+ You have yet to satisfy my curiosity.
>> > >+ Of course, it is not necessary for you to respond.
>> > >+ Trolls usually do not.
>> > >
>> > Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>>
>> here who "professes" atheism. It's in the sig, after all.
>
>atheist sig.
>
>> talking about.
>
>foot, engage transmission" on my case. Sorry about that.
No problems mate.
Karen H Jarvis
>"Karen H Jarvis" wrote ...
>> Who is a "professed atheist"? NOT ME.
>
>+ Hmmmm.
>+ Well, well, well....
>+ I guess I assumed you and alan shared the same interests.
>+ Wow, I may have goofed.......
>+ Yowzer.... don't tell me I have made a 3rd mistake this year?
>+ And it is only September?
>
Karen H Jarvis
>> >"Alan Ferris" wrote
>> >> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
>> >> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
>> >> Zenit as well
>> >
>> >+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
>> >+ Where are the links.
>> >+ I want to see the full article, again.
>> >
>> Try your own search, if you are capable of performing one.
>
>+ Hmmmm.
>+ Mrs Karen....
>+ Do you always like to find reason to talk with me?
>+ Do you really like me that much?
>
>+ Oh - let me explain something to you.
>+ Alan specifically said above:
>> >> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
>> >> Zenit as well
>
Alan didn't post the article.
>+ Perhaps I just don't know how to find the links.
>+ When he mentioned "Zenit" that is a new word to me.
>+ Since I am still lernin all this 'puter stuff, I tries
>to figure out whatchu tokkin bout.
>
>+ Oh - and no.... I am not capable of performing
>a search. I just don't know how. I also don't know
>the chemical equation of certain rocket fuels. But,
>that hasn't harmed me by knowing or not knowing
>it much in the past either. A full wave rectifier still
>blows my mind, as does a three way switch. I can
>figure them out on paper, but --- really -- does it make
>me a better person? I don't think so.
>
Proud of your ignorance? Sounds like another troll we know!
Karen H Jarvis
You have learnt of abuse. Do you want to learn more?
You see things that are not there. I, for one, do not want you to
renounce your church. Just to start asking questions of it, and to
stop blindly following what they say on this matter.
>
>> You talk about anger, what of the anger of the abused when their pain
>> and suffering is just brushed off, often without even a simple
>> apology.
>
>You mean, like Irish people whose death by
>government-imposed starvation was blamed on a potato virus,
>or Indian rebels who were strapped to cannons which were
>then fired? I don't see you demanding apologies from Tony
>Blair for the sins of jolly old England. Repent for your own
>country's transgressions before shaking your finger at me,
>you sanctimonious, kidney-pie-eating hypocrite.
>
Actually, you are wrong again Rose. I will put it down to your
ignorance on these matters. We have, indeed, asked the Government for
an apology regarding the Child Migrants. Have you heard of them?
>
>But it seems the church is winning in managing to make this
>> not about the abused but managing to make people think it is either
>> anti-catholic or just bad apples. Ignoring the whole issues raised by
>> the abused and the treatment they received.
>
>Why aren't you pestering Bill Clinton for an apology for the
>thousands of public school students who are molested each
>year? It happens all the time, and the school administrators
>try to hush it up. Gee, I guess the entire US government is
>just one evil conspiracy to molest children.
>
I haven't heard anything about this. Does your Government do as good
a job as the RCC about hushing these things up?
>>
>> Why should you worry about an Austrian Cardinal? Are not the Austrian
>> catholics you brothers and sisters. Is their pain and suffering not
>> something to be cared about? It seems the pope thought otherwise.
>> There was much anguish in the Austrian church at the inaction of the
>> Vatican, then to top it the pope invites the disgraced ex-cardinal to
>> dinner at the Vatican. Can you not understand how that would make
>> those who suffered at his hands feel? Can you not understand their
>> anger and their pain when the leader of their church acts this way?
>
>Oh, please. Are Protestants the world over responsible for
>South African racism? Should the Archbishop of Canterbury
>rend his garments after every firebombing of a Catholic home
>in Northern Ireland? Or...gee...might THOSE be LOCAL
>matters?
>
The Archbishop of Canterbury does come out and state that he is
opposed to such things. The Archbishop of Westminster hides and
protects paedophiles. Can you see the difference?
>
>> >p.s. Didn't mean to jump all over your case before. I'm
>> >getting cranky which means it's probably time to log off...
>>
>> That is why I left this answer to the morning.
>
>And now in the light of day your agenda is even more
>transparent.
>
Why are all catholics "hung up" on agenda's? Why, when anyone tries
to explain things or oppose what catholics are saying, is the word
"agenda" thrown in their face?
What is YOUR AGENDA?
>
>> I am seriously wanting catholics to question their bishops and
>> cardinal about the way they treat the abused. It seems everybody
>> agrees that it is wrong and bad, yet nobody will apologise to them and
>> nobody listens to their complaints. Why is that?
>
>Because it is obvious you don't really give a shit about
>child abuse. You just want to paint Catholics as child
>abusers, and you expoit the plight of the abused for your
>own purposes. If you really care about a particular instance
>of child abuse by a clergyman, contact members of that
>archdiocese and start a local grassroots protest. Do some
>legwork. But that's not as much fun as lecturing the entire
>Catholic community on compassion, and setting yourself up as
>some kind of hero.
>
Language again!!
I have contacted the archdiocese. I help survivors of abuse by the
RCC. What do you do?
>
>> I realise this is often an embarrassment to the church, but they must
>> realise that their embarrassment is minor compared to the suffering of
>> the abused. Putting the good appearance of the church
>
>I like how you extrapolate from "a school in Scotland" to
>"the church" in general. Guess what. There is a word for
>actively scouting out instances of bad behavior committed by
>a particular religious or ethnic group to support your
>thesis that the entire group is bad. It's called BIGOTRY.
>
The general trend in these situations is denial of the abuse and
protection of the perpetrators. These events are repeated the world
over - England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, USA, Australia. Is it
official policy of the RCC to act in this way?
>
>before these
>> children and adults is wrong. That is what I hope to get people to
>> see. For if it continues then how will you say sorry to those who may
>> suffer through inaction to right the wrongs?
>
>
>How will *I* say sorry? How do you know I'm not a social
>worker who spends all day every day advocating for abused
>and neglected children? But of course that wouldn't matter
>to you - I'm guilty by virtue of being Catholic, and you are
>absolved - despite your failure to really do anything useful
>- by not being Catholic. And you say you're not attacking
>me. Know what? I am finished defending myself to you who
>will never be satisfied.
I sincerely hope that you are NOT a social worker with you attitude to
these matters. Your guilt lies in abusing the abused by your words
and inaction.
Karen H Jarvis
>In article <39CCB8B8...@ramblingrose.com>, Rose Mary Kelleher
><kell...@ramblingrose.com> wrote:
>
>> Alan Ferris wrote:
>>
>> <snipped old stuff>
>>
>> > >> I tend to get negative when people try and sweep it under the carpet
>> > >> again. It has happened to often and people are still suffering for
>> > >> that. Sorry if my hatred for suffering becomes to negative for
>> > >> people. Shall we truly just sing the praises and ignore the bad.
>> > >> That is what the church keeps telling people, it is what it keeps
>> > >> telling the abused.
>> > >>
>> > >> Many in this group sing the churches praises far better than I. I am
>> > >> busy making sure that the silent abused are not forgotten as many
>> > and suffering is just brushed off, often without even a simple
>> > apology.
>>
>> You mean, like Irish people whose death by
>> government-imposed starvation was blamed on a potato virus,
>> or Indian rebels who were strapped to cannons which were
>> then fired? I don't see you demanding apologies from Tony
>> Blair for the sins of jolly old England. Repent for your own
>> country's transgressions before shaking your finger at me,
>> you sanctimonious, kidney-pie-eating hypocrite.
>
>
>
> " And they'll know she's a christian by her love, by her love
> yes, they'll know she's a christian by her love".
>
> Hey Rose Mary- you seem really bent out of shape about the
>kidney pie. Are you a fellow vegetarian?
>
> M/M
>
Karen H Jarvis
Again, what are YOU DOING? Alan helps abused people, so do I.
Karen H Jarvis
>> >"Alan Ferris" > wrote
entitled to call themselves "Father". There have been a few instances
of this happening in the UK, USA and Ireland. Are you unfamiliar with
this?
Alan Ferris
Right Patrick.....I am sure you can see sense in your ramblings there.
Nowhere on the website does it say anybody is atheist. Nowhere has
Karen said it. But then people do not have to say anything. You have
always shown before that you only consider what you think to be true.
You never do ask people what they are, you forever try and tell them.
Try asking Patrick, you might not be so wrong so often then.
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the only colour is black -
the only sound
the broken bell
THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
arc's Gallery: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/xalan/rogue.htm
ICQ UIN: 12811297
Alan Ferris
>Hmmmm a major news show did a long story this week on a Baptist retreat for
>wayward teens that severly abused their charges. Stop promulgating your
>Catholic hate Karen and crawl back under your rock.
This is sick. Because others are doing it, it must be alright that we
are doing it!! Grow up.
Alan Ferris
So all those lies you told about me and the ones you tell about Karen
are what exactly Patrick. If they are not wrong in your mind, what
are they exactly....little misdeeds?
Alan Ferris
>"Alan Ferris" < wrote ...
>> "PBarker" wrote ...
>> >"Alan Ferris" wrote
>> >> That is why I always include the links, can see the full article. But
>> >> it matters little, this has been carried by most if the major news and
>> >> Zenit as well
>> >
>> >+ I double clicked on the doober below, and got your picture again.
>> >+ Where are the links.
>> >+ I want to see the full article, again.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_931000/931242.stm
>
>+ Thank you.
>+ I clicked on it and I read the article fully.
>+ I appreciate your assistance.
>
>
>> The News article from this thread, crossposted by Jesus H.
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_931000/931209.stm
>
>+ Ah, I clicked on this one and read it also.
>+ Thank you.
>
>> Does that help you Patrick. Are you know aware that you are ranting
>> at Karen even about an article she did not post?
>
>+ That helps me tremendously.
>+ I don't believe I was ranting.
>+ If you feel I was, then you will have to forgive me
>as I forgive you for your invalid "ranting" thoughts.
>
>+ I do appreciate your http:/doobers above.
>+ I would never know where to look without your kind assistance.
But has your mental gears managed to cope with the fact that you still
are accusing Karen when it was not her?
PBarker
> "PBarker" wrote: ...
> More lies Patrick? When have I asked, even once,
if you are insulting me?
+ OK, OK... maybe it was yer butt-buddy, Alan.
+ You know how hard it is for me to keep you two apart.
+ If you could just provide a little insight to you, I could
separate you two from one another.
+ Alan is an atheist.
+ And you are..........?
Alan Ferris
What is sad is that rather asking me you make up all these lies. But
then that is exactly what we are fighting. The lies that try and hide
the truth.
Ask me and I might ask. Lie about me and we see you in your true
light Rose. I started out thinking you were nice. That since has
gone I am sad to say.
Alan Ferris
>"Karen H Jarvis" < wrote ...
>> >"Alan Ferris" > wrote
>> >> Recently in the release of Father Hill to a secure unit, another
>> >> priest said that he should keep his title of Father as he had done
>> >> nothing to break his vows. Now I and many are struggling to
>> >> understand how a Priest cannot be breaking his vows when he has abused
>> >> children. Again with messages like this being presented by the
>> >> church, is it little wonder that people get upset?
>> >
>> >+ Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
>> >becomes a priest. Once you have rung a bell, you cannot unring it.
>> >
>> That does not answer the question. Hill had broken a vow. Shouldn't
>> a person who has broken a vow be laicised?
>
>+ I did answer the question.
>+ Once a person has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, he
>becomes a priest. ALWAYS. Once you have been baptized, you
>cannot be unbaptized.
>+ If a priest were found guilty of a crime, he should pay
>the penalty for that crime.
So what is an defrocked priest then Patrick? What is an
excommunicated Priest then Patrick?
Alan Ferris
>
>Alan Ferris wrote:
>
><snipped old stuff>
>
>> >> I tend to get negative when people try and sweep it under the carpet
>> >> again. It has happened to often and people are still suffering for
>> >> that. Sorry if my hatred for suffering becomes to negative for
>> >> people. Shall we truly just sing the praises and ignore the bad.
>> >> That is what the church keeps telling people, it is what it keeps
>> >> telling the abused.
>> >>
>> >> Many in this group sing the churches praises far better than I. I am
>> >> busy making sure that the silent abused are not forgotten as many
>> >
>> >And how exactly are your posts preventing child abuse? I
>> >commend your compassion for children, I just don't
>> >understand what you are trying to accomplish here, other
>> >than hurting our feelings by trying to imply that we are
>> >child-abusing devils. We've all agreed that child abuse is
>> >wrong and should always be reported. What else do you want
>> >from us? If you are mad at some Austrian cardinal why don't
>> >you complain to him?
>>
>> If people stop trying to brush abuse under the carpet then there will
>> be more chance of stopping it happening again. If I can get people
>> stop trying to say it is just anti-catholic press, or if I can get
>> people to question their diocese to ensure that it is treated openly
>> and responsibly then I believe I can do something. But it is exactly
>> people like you who I am trying to reach. You know abuse is wrong,
>> but you fail to realise that trying to cover up the abuse, or deny it
>> is just as wrong.
>
>That is total BS. I have repeatedly stated that if I were to
>learn of abuse I would do all in my power to stop it, not
>"brush it under the carpet." Now I ask you, what more do you
>want of me? You will never be satisfied until I renounce my
>church altogether. I see that now.
I have never asked you to question your faith or your belief in your
church. So why the lie and suggest I have? Can you not understand
what I am writing, if so ask for clarification, do not lie about me
please.
What I want is people like yourself who make up the church to tell
your leaders that they need to sort this out. They will listen to you
far more than they will listen to me or the victims. This was shown
in Austria, when the people who make up the church say they are not
going to stand for it, something got done. That is what you and all
your friends can do!
>> You talk about anger, what of the anger of the abused when their pain
>> and suffering is just brushed off, often without even a simple
>> apology.
>
>You mean, like Irish people whose death by
>government-imposed starvation was blamed on a potato virus,
>or Indian rebels who were strapped to cannons which were
>then fired? I don't see you demanding apologies from Tony
>Blair for the sins of jolly old England. Repent for your own
>country's transgressions before shaking your finger at me,
>you sanctimonious, kidney-pie-eating hypocrite.
I do believe it or not think our country should act. I believe it
eventually does when people get of trying to shun it and do something.
I did fight in the campaign to re-open the Bloody sunday enquiry. I
often do write to the government when I feel it is acting wrong. Can
you do the same?
>But it seems the church is winning in managing to make this
>> not about the abused but managing to make people think it is either
>> anti-catholic or just bad apples. Ignoring the whole issues raised by
>> the abused and the treatment they received.
>
>Why aren't you pestering Bill Clinton for an apology for the
>thousands of public school students who are molested each
>year? It happens all the time, and the school administrators
>try to hush it up. Gee, I guess the entire US government is
>just one evil conspiracy to molest children.
No, can you show me where there is evidence that there is an attempt
to deny people help and treatment just so that others will not learn
people have been abused. Where pressure is put on families to keep
them silent. If so then yes I will be there denouncing your school
system and bill clinton. Can you show where other teachers stood and
watched a child being raped and did nothing. Can you show where
teachers stood and watched a child get kicked and punched and did
nothing, where they even denied that child medical care for 3 days.
We are talking about systematic coverups. It is that which allows the
abuse to fester. It is that which causes further harm to the abused.
It is that which needs stopping.
Also, WHY is the church so adamant not to say sorry?
>> Why should you worry about an Austrian Cardinal? Are not the Austrian
>> catholics you brothers and sisters. Is their pain and suffering not
>> something to be cared about? It seems the pope thought otherwise.
>> There was much anguish in the Austrian church at the inaction of the
>> Vatican, then to top it the pope invites the disgraced ex-cardinal to
>> dinner at the Vatican. Can you not understand how that would make
>> those who suffered at his hands feel? Can you not understand their
>> anger and their pain when the leader of their church acts this way?
>
>Oh, please. Are Protestants the world over responsible for
>South African racism? Should the Archbishop of Canterbury
>rend his garments after every firebombing of a Catholic home
>in Northern Ireland? Or...gee...might THOSE be LOCAL
>matters?
If it is shown that the church is covering up abuse in house, if it is
shown that it knew of abuse and did not act then yes I would be
attacking them as hard. Just as they have in Canada. There the
government decided that the churches must take responsibility for
their actions. The same in Ireland where the Irish Catholic Brothers
are now the subject of a government investigation. It should never
have got so bad that governments need to force the churches to act!
We are talking here about direct involvement in actions that are still
happening today.
>> >p.s. Didn't mean to jump all over your case before. I'm
>> >getting cranky which means it's probably time to log off...
>>
>> That is why I left this answer to the morning.
>
>And now in the light of day your agenda is even more
>transparent.
I am glad you can see my agenda to stop the horrendous cover up of
abuse. Can you not see that the further abuse of victims this causes.
Can you now see why it is wrong.
>> I am seriously wanting catholics to question their bishops and
>> cardinal about the way they treat the abused. It seems everybody
>> agrees that it is wrong and bad, yet nobody will apologise to them and
>> nobody listens to their complaints. Why is that?
>
>Because it is obvious you don't really give a shit about
>child abuse. You just want to paint Catholics as child
>abusers, and you expoit the plight of the abused for your
>own purposes. If you really care about a particular instance
>of child abuse by a clergyman, contact members of that
>archdiocese and start a local grassroots protest. Do some
>legwork. But that's not as much fun as lecturing the entire
>Catholic community on compassion, and setting yourself up as
>some kind of hero.
I do legwork, I do far more than you will ever know or care about it
seems. Fell what you like about me, do not ignore the abuse and the
lack of actions of the church. Feel what you like about me, but do
something for the victims. Even if it is something as little as a
letter to your bishop.
The letters I get back often suggest that as I am no longer catholic
myself I am out just to drag the church down, so you are not the first
to suggest this. But you all fail to realise, what will bring the
church down is the constant denial and constant attempts to wish this
problem away.
>> I realise this is often an embarrassment to the church, but they must
>> realise that their embarrassment is minor compared to the suffering of
>> the abused. Putting the good appearance of the church
>
>I like how you extrapolate from "a school in Scotland" to
>"the church" in general. Guess what. There is a word for
>actively scouting out instances of bad behavior committed by
>a particular religious or ethnic group to support your
>thesis that the entire group is bad. It's called BIGOTRY.
That is because you are happy to deny all the cases around the world
that show attempts to hide the truth. That is because you want it to
be this one little case and ignore the rest. Ignore Australia where
thousands of children suffered. Ignore Canada where thousands of
natives suffered. Ignore Ireland where thousands of children
suffered. And America is not left out either. It is a global
problem.
>before these
>> children and adults is wrong. That is what I hope to get people to
>> see. For if it continues then how will you say sorry to those who may
>> suffer through inaction to right the wrongs?
>
>
>How will *I* say sorry? How do you know I'm not a social
>worker who spends all day every day advocating for abused
>and neglected children? But of course that wouldn't matter
>to you - I'm guilty by virtue of being Catholic, and you are
>absolved - despite your failure to really do anything useful
>- by not being Catholic. And you say you're not attacking
>me. Know what? I am finished defending myself to you who
>will never be satisfied.
No I am saying to you how will you say sorry to the next generation of
abused because nothing is done to stop it now. I do not know about
you, but I would not be able to face them thinking I did nothing to
try and stop it. I could not face them knowing I might have been able
to prevent it.
PBarker
> "PBarker" wrote: ...
> >+ I don't believe I was ranting.
> >+ If you feel I was, then you will have to forgive me
> >as I forgive you for your invalid "ranting" thoughts.
> No apology Patrick?
+ Wasn't that pretty close to an apology?
+ and.....
+ Why do you feel you have to track what I say to others?
+ Am I that fascinating to you?
+ C'mon, you can admit it.... you want me....
Alan Ferris
>if you are insulting me?
>
>+ OK, OK... maybe it was yer butt-buddy, Alan.
>+ You know how hard it is for me to keep you two apart.
>+ If you could just provide a little insight to you, I could
>separate you two from one another.
>+ Alan is an atheist.
>+ And you are..........?
Patricks famous insights again...I will ask you a question and then
makes lots of things up from your one answer....well that was what
Patrick did when he tried it with me!!
Karen H Jarvis
>>Hmmmm a major news show did a long story this week on a Baptist retreat for
>>wayward teens that severly abused their charges. Stop promulgating your
>>Catholic hate Karen and crawl back under your rock.
>
>This is sick. Because others are doing it, it must be alright that we
>are doing it!! Grow up.
Yup. Missed this coz I have the twit plonked. Now I remember why I
have him in my killfile!!
Edward Croteau
"arjay" <ar...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:yh_y5.260809$Gh.66...@news20.bellglobal.com...
| PBarker wrote ...
| > "Karen H Jarvis" <> wrote
| > > Does he still think we are the same person?
| >
| > + You certainly have no sense of humor, do you?
| > + And no, that is not an insult.
| > + I'll let you know - when I decide to insult you.
|
|
|
|
|
You still picking for a fight are ya ?
Ed.....................(OGTeck)
Edward Croteau
"PBarker" <bark...@nospam.erinet.com> wrote in message
news:39ccbd53$0$34962$53a6...@news.erinet.com...
| "arjay" wrote ...
| > PBarker wrote ...
| > > "Karen H Jarvis" <> wrote
| > > > Does he still think we are the same person?
| > >
| > > + You certainly have no sense of humor, do you?
| > > + And no, that is not an insult.
| > > + I'll let you know - when I decide to insult you.
| >
| > Are you so inept that you must label your insults as such?
|
| + Our esteemed colleague - Mrs Karen - has a difficult time
| in determining when I am insulting her. She has no sense of
| humour and she has asked repeatedly in the past why I was
| insulting her, when I wasn't. Now, I just tell her when I am
| insulting her. That way, she doesn't get all confused.
|
|
publisher or writer DARKlady. She gets confused
A - LOT 2
Ed.........................(OGTeck)
Karen H Jarvis
>"Karen H Jarvis" wrote ...
>> "PBarker" wrote: ...
>> More lies Patrick? When have I asked, even once,
>if you are insulting me?
>
>+ OK, OK... maybe it was yer butt-buddy, Alan.
>+ You know how hard it is for me to keep you two apart.
>+ If you could just provide a little insight to you, I could
>separate you two from one another.
>+ Alan is an atheist.
>+ And you are..........?
>
Karen H Jarvis
PBarker
> Patricks famous insights again...I will ask you a question and then
> makes lots of things up from your one answer....well that was what
> Patrick did when he tried it with me!!
+ That is because you provide such small insights into yourself.
+ I tell you all, and you tell me minimum. Since you don't
seem to share your experiences, I makes em up. When
you tell me they are wrong, then - and only then - do we find out
the real story. You should be up-front right off the bat, and I
wouldn't have to trick the truth out of you.
Alan Ferris
Every time you asked I answered you clearly and precisely. But that
was not good enough. Well whose fault is that Patrick? Am I to be
sorry that I did not fit the mold you wanted to apply. Or is it your
fault for constantly lying about me?