World Famous Catholics
peter terry
Remember Hitler and Mussolini remained Catholics to the very end of their
lives. Both were baptised Catholics and neither was ever excommunicated from
the church. So did thousands of the worst Nazi war criminals, whom the
Vatican smuggled out of Europe into safe havens in South America. And not to
mention Josep Mengele who publically identified himself a catholic.
Such arch-criminals are honoured with catholic funerals and, like Mafia
members,
die with the assurance that their Church will continue to say Masses in
order to get them out of Purgatory and eventually into heaven. It is an
insurance policy that very few allow to lapse completely.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/henchmen.htm
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm
http://www.crimelibrary.com/mengele/family.htm
http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/StaticPages/111.html
And of course we have to mention the CC relationship with the tyrrant
and war lord Napoleon...who himself like Hitler was raised a Catholic.
Controversial Concordats offers an engaging survey of the relationship
of the Roman Catholic Church with three dictatorial figures in the
nineteenth
and twentieth centuries: Napoleon, Mussolini, and Hitler. The essays reveal
that the papacy not only played a key role in determining church-state
relations
in particular countries, but also greatly influenced the general course of
international relations and modern history from the era of the French
Revolution
to the age of dictators and World War II.
http://cuapress.cua.edu/BOOKS/viewbook.cfm?Book=COCC
PeterT
Peter
are you trying to assert?
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c7ea...@news.iprimus.com.au...
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>Remember Hitler and Mussolini remained Catholics to the very end of their
>lives. Both were baptised Catholics and neither was ever excommunicated from
>the church. So did thousands of the worst Nazi war criminals, whom the
>Vatican smuggled out of Europe into safe havens in South America. And not to
>mention Josep Mengele who publically identified himself a catholic.
Now there's some hogwash for you.
Just for grins, how do you know that Hitler was never excommunicated?
Chapter and verse please.
duke
SumBuny4Me
Mr Terry seems to forget,
Church is not a gallery of saints, but a hospital for sinners....I challenge
him to show a single religion, or even a single group of people that has NO
ONE who is totally sinless...
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." Are you picking up
rocks, Mr Terry?
--
Buny
------"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to
be normal." ~ Albert Camus
------One size does NOT fit all, heck, one size don't even fit MOST!
peter terry
"duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3c7ec32d...@news.earthlink.net...
they WERE excommunicated.
May I suggest that if they were we all would have heard about it, right?
> duke
>
>
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
news:xozf8.16569$s03.6...@news2.east.cox.net...
>
> Mr Terry seems to forget,
>
> Church is not a gallery of saints, but a hospital for sinners....I
challenge
> him to show a single religion, or even a single group of people that has
NO
> ONE who is totally sinless...
>
Hitler etc committed, would you not agree with , the true and original
church of Christ?
Hence by mere deduction one must conclude that the CC is not Jesus' Church
given that it is a church full of sinners. Remember Jesus said that the
gates of hell would NEVER prevail within his true church.
>
> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." Are you picking up
> rocks, Mr Terry?
>
Buny, your same analogy could be used against Jesus and his character
assassination of the Pharisees...This teaching in my opinion should never be
used to thwart the facts?
PeterT
Kisinger
were true, your statement is a mute point. Jesus died on the cross for all
sinners including Hitler, Mussolini, etc. Even where Hitler is concerned we
know not hit state of salvation at his death. God is the Judge, not us
sinful humans. Besides Jesus was rebuked by the Pharasees and even by his
own apostle's because he associated with with sinner......thieves,
prostitues..........."Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world but
that the world through him might be saved"
peter terry
"Kisinger" <n_aki...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XQFf8.253$0H....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> Sorry Terry, I know you like Catholic bashing, but even if your conjecture
> were true, your statement is a mute point. Jesus died on the cross for
all
>
that he will die on a Roman cross for even YOU??
>
> sinners including Hitler, Mussolini, etc.
>
to actively reconciliate by ones sins. Simply to say I am sorry
does NOT suffice in my opinion.
It has been too convenient for Catholics to justify heinous crimes by it's
members
using the simple solution that to repent will see one removed from the sin.
WW2 was a crime against the Holy Spirit and everything Jesus stood for.
>
>Even where Hitler is concerned we
> know not hit state of salvation at his death.
>
You have a lot more faith in the morals of Hitler than do I!
>
>God is the Judge, not us
> sinful humans.
>
That's correct so stop trying to indicate that Hitler may have
been forgiven.......because his crimes against man and God are eternal.
>
>Besides Jesus was rebuked by the Pharasees and even by his
> own apostle's because he associated with with sinner......thieves,
> prostitues...........
>
There a big difference between associating with prostitutes, pharisees and
tax
collectors than befriending mass killers like Hitler and Mussolini.
>
>"Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world but
> that the world through him might be saved"
>
Indeed and he wasted no time whatsoever in condemning the Pharisees
in what amounts to non less than a major dressing down. (Matt 23.) Not to
mention
when he lost his cool with the money changers or escaped assassination
numerous times.
But non of this relates in any way to the likes of Hitler and Mussolini.
But thanx for your comments anyway. :-)
PeterT
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>"duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:3c7ec32d...@news.earthlink.net...
>> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:36:40 GMT, "peter terry"
>> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Remember Hitler and Mussolini remained Catholics to the very end of their
>> >lives. Both were baptised Catholics and neither was ever excommunicated
>from
>> >the church. So did thousands of the worst Nazi war criminals, whom the
>> >Vatican smuggled out of Europe into safe havens in South America. And not
>to
>> >mention Josep Mengele who publically identified himself a catholic.
>>
>> Now there's some hogwash for you.
>>
>> Just for grins, how do you know that Hitler was never excommunicated?
>>
>> Chapter and verse please.
>>
>By this response I can only presume that you have evidence supporting that
>they WERE excommunicated.
Not me, bud. I have no information at all. So what do YOU have that
says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
>May I suggest that if they were we all would have heard about it, right?
A really far-fetched comment if I ever heard one.
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>Within the boundaries of mortal not venial sin which is what the likes of
>Hitler etc committed, would you not agree with , the true and original
>church of Christ?
>Hence by mere deduction one must conclude that the CC is not Jesus' Church
>given that it is a church full of sinners. Remember Jesus said that the
>gates of hell would NEVER prevail within his true church.
Actually you should note Hebrews 4:15
Only one has never sinned - Jesus.
>> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." Are you picking up
>> rocks, Mr Terry?
>Buny, your same analogy could be used against Jesus and his character
>assassination of the Pharisees...This teaching in my opinion should never be
>used to thwart the facts?
You have *no* facts - just your "mere deductions leading to your false
conclusions."
duke
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c7ee990$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:xozf8.16569$s03.6...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> > Mr Terry seems to forget,
> >
> > Church is not a gallery of saints, but a hospital for sinners....I
> challenge
> > him to show a single religion, or even a single group of people that has
> NO
> > ONE who is totally sinless...
> >
> Within the boundaries of mortal not venial sin which is what the likes of
> Hitler etc committed, would you not agree with , the true and original
> church of Christ?
>
> Hence by mere deduction one must conclude that the CC is not Jesus' Church
> given that it is a church full of sinners. Remember Jesus said that the
> gates of hell would NEVER prevail within his true church.
Yet you refuse to answer my question......show me a single religion or group
of people that can boast of he\aving not one person who is sinless...
> >
> > "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." Are you picking up
> > rocks, Mr Terry?
> >
> Buny, your same analogy could be used against Jesus and his character
> assassination of the Pharisees...This teaching in my opinion should never
be
> used to thwart the facts?
So....are you or are you not casting stones? As far as jesus...well,
Catholics are taught that *He* is without sin....are you claiming you are as
well?
--
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c7f3...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > sinners including Hitler, Mussolini, etc.
> >
> Absolutely NOT. Forgiveness of sin is measured upon ones efforts
> to actively reconciliate by ones sins. Simply to say I am sorry
> does NOT suffice in my opinion.
Who are *we humans* to judge? For all we know, they could have made a
perfect act of contrition at the moment of death, and God forgave them-true,
it is highly unlikely, but since we Catholics are taught that if properly
penitent, God could forgive anything--again, who are *we* to judge what God
does?
This is not saying that I condone anything these men did, but to prove a
point...God can do anything, forgive anyone if He so chooses....good thing,
too, for if we always got exactly what we deserved-are you ready for that to
happen to you? I *know* I am a lowly sinner....
> >
> >God is the Judge, not us
> > sinful humans.
> >
> That's correct so stop trying to indicate that Hitler may have
> been forgiven.......because his crimes against man and God are eternal.
So you know the mind of God? You know what His plans are, what He chooses
to do? Sounds rather presumptuous...
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
>
> > Hence by mere deduction one must conclude that the CC is not Jesus'
Church
> > given that it is a church full of sinners. Remember Jesus said that the
> > gates of hell would NEVER prevail within his true church.
>
> Yet you refuse to answer my question......show me a single religion or
group
> of people that can boast of he\aving not one person who is sinless...
>
>
> So....are you or are you not casting stones? As far as jesus...well,
> Catholics are taught that *He* is without sin....are you claiming you are
as
> well?
>
Jesus was without mortal sin but according to Catholic doctrine it could
also be said that he was with minor or venial sin..(smashing peoples wares
within the scene of the money changers and his character assassination of
the Pharisees could be interpreted as him loosing his cool and a minor sin?)
PeterT
peter terry
> On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 02:28:46 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:3c7ec32d...@news.earthlink.net...
> >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:36:40 GMT, "peter terry"
> >> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Remember Hitler and Mussolini remained Catholics to the very end of
their
> >> >lives. Both were baptised Catholics and neither was ever
excommunicated
> >from
> >> >the church. So did thousands of the worst Nazi war criminals, whom the
> >> >Vatican smuggled out of Europe into safe havens in South America. And
not
> >to
> >> >mention Josep Mengele who publically identified himself a catholic.
> >>
> >> Now there's some hogwash for you.
> >>
> >> Just for grins, how do you know that Hitler was never excommunicated?
> >>
> >> Chapter and verse please.
> >>
> >By this response I can only presume that you have evidence supporting
that
> >they WERE excommunicated.
>
> Not me, bud. I have no information at all. So what do YOU have that
> says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
>
them is evidence enough.
>
> >May I suggest that if they were we all would have heard about it, right?
>
> A really far-fetched comment if I ever heard one.
>
> duke
>
>
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
>
>
>
> "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c7f3...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > sinners including Hitler, Mussolini, etc.
> > >
> > Absolutely NOT. Forgiveness of sin is measured upon ones efforts
> > to actively reconciliate by ones sins. Simply to say I am sorry
> > does NOT suffice in my opinion.
>
> Who are *we humans* to judge? For all we know, they could have made a
> perfect act of contrition at the moment of death, and God forgave
them-true,
> it is highly unlikely, but since we Catholics are taught that if properly
> penitent, God could forgive anything--again, who are *we* to judge what
God
> does?
>
> This is not saying that I condone anything these men did, but to prove a
> point...God can do anything, forgive anyone if He so chooses....good
thing,
> too, for if we always got exactly what we deserved-are you ready for that
to
> happen to you? I *know* I am a lowly sinner....
>
been accuser, judge and executioner.
> > >
> > >God is the Judge, not us
> > > sinful humans.
> > >
> > That's correct so stop trying to indicate that Hitler may have
> > been forgiven.......because his crimes against man and God are eternal.
>
> So you know the mind of God? You know what His plans are, what He chooses
> to do? Sounds rather presumptuous...
>
against the holy Spirit and a sin against the Holy Spirit is NEVER forgiven.
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c800...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:WzSf8.21060$s03.6...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> > Who are *we humans* to judge? For all we know, they could have made a
> > perfect act of contrition at the moment of death, and God forgave
> them-true,
> > it is highly unlikely, but since we Catholics are taught that if
properly
> > penitent, God could forgive anything--again, who are *we* to judge what
> God
> > does?
> >
> > This is not saying that I condone anything these men did, but to prove a
> > point...God can do anything, forgive anyone if He so chooses....good
> thing,
> > too, for if we always got exactly what we deserved-are you ready for
that
> to
> > happen to you? I *know* I am a lowly sinner....
> >
> This a bit rich from a man who follows a religion which has historically
> been accuser, judge and executioner.
First, as has been noted in other posts...I am female...
Second...if I knew anything about your ethnic or religious background, I
could probably say similar negative comments about you as well...
Third...are you placing yourself as judge?
> > > >
> > > >God is the Judge, not us
> > > > sinful humans.
> > > >
> > > That's correct so stop trying to indicate that Hitler may have
> > > been forgiven.......because his crimes against man and God are
eternal.
> >
> > So you know the mind of God? You know what His plans are, what He
chooses
> > to do? Sounds rather presumptuous...
> >
> Jesus teachings are quite explanatory in this....mass murder is a sin
> against the holy Spirit and a sin against the Holy Spirit is NEVER
forgiven.
Chapter and verse that states that God cannot forgive this? That these
specific actions are unforgivable by God?
Also...are you saying that you presume to know what God
plans/thinks/decides?...if so, why did you not know my gender, oh omnsicient
one?
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
>
> > This a bit rich from a man who follows a religion which has historically
> > been accuser, judge and executioner.
>
> First, as has been noted in other posts...I am female...
>
>
> Second...if I knew anything about your ethnic or religious background, I
> could probably say similar negative comments about you as well...
>
difficult.
However as Peter I'm a white New Zealander living in Queensland Australia.
>
> Third...are you placing yourself as judge?
>
>
> > Jesus teachings are quite explanatory in this....mass murder is a sin
> > against the holy Spirit and a sin against the Holy Spirit is NEVER
> forgiven.
>
> Chapter and verse that states that God cannot forgive this? That these
> specific actions are unforgivable by God?
>
forgive Hitler for his crimes as opposed to you and I for sin I would
categorically
say that Hitler would be a goner....right?
>
> Also...are you saying that you presume to know what God
> plans/thinks/decides?...
>
>
>if so, why did you not know my gender, oh omnsicient
> one?
>
physical world
reflects biology while spirit personifies form beyond physical or biological
constraints..
I apologise that I viewed you momentarily as spirit, not human.
he he
It is the spirit that quickenith the flesh profits nothing says JC.
PeterT
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>Jesus was without mortal sin but according to Catholic doctrine it could
>also be said that he was with minor or venial sin..(smashing peoples wares
>within the scene of the money changers and his character assassination of
>the Pharisees could be interpreted as him loosing his cool and a minor sin?)
>PeterT
Catholic doctrine where? The bible says that Jesus was man in every
way but never sinned.
He punished the money changers for desecreating his Fathers' house -
the Temple. That's not a minor sin.
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> >By this response I can only presume that you have evidence supporting
>that
>> >they WERE excommunicated.
>> Not me, bud. I have no information at all. So what do YOU have that
>> says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
>The fact that the Vatican has never claimed to have excommunicated either of
>them is evidence enough.
Again, how do you know the Vatican has never excommunicated them?
Answer - you don't. You made a wild statement and got caught.
>> >May I suggest that if they were we all would have heard about it, right?
>> A really far-fetched comment if I ever heard one.
>Word play mate nothing more
You made the statement, now back it up.
duke
dvs519
Go look it up yourself on the Vatican's list of excommunicated
persons. Try their website in Italian.
====================
Dave by the Beach
Redondo Beach
Southern California
dvs519
>On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 02:28:46 GMT, "peter terry"
><namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:3c7ec32d...@news.earthlink.net...
>>> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:36:40 GMT, "peter terry"
>>> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >Remember Hitler and Mussolini remained Catholics to the very end of their
>>> >lives. Both were baptised Catholics and neither was ever excommunicated
>>from
>>> >the church. So did thousands of the worst Nazi war criminals, whom the
>>> >Vatican smuggled out of Europe into safe havens in South America. And not
>>to
>>> >mention Josep Mengele who publically identified himself a catholic.
>>>
>>> Now there's some hogwash for you.
>>>
>>> Just for grins, how do you know that Hitler was never excommunicated?
>>>
>>> Chapter and verse please.
>>>
>>By this response I can only presume that you have evidence supporting that
>>they WERE excommunicated.
>
>Not me, bud. I have no information at all.
So true.
> So what do YOU have that
>says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
The Vatican does keep a list of those who have not been
excommunicated. It is called the Baptismal Registry and is kept in
every parish.
>
>>May I suggest that if they were we all would have heard about it, right?
>
>A really far-fetched comment if I ever heard one.
>
>duke
You thinking about feltching again?>
duke32
>>Just for grins, how do you know that Hitler was never excommunicated?
>>Chapter and verse please.
>>duke
>Go look it up yourself on the Vatican's list of excommunicated
>persons. Try their website in Italian.
I'm not the one that said that he was not excommunicated. I only
asked him for proof.
duke
duke32
>Not me, bud. I have no information at all.
>So true.
If you want to know if Hitler was excommunicated, so research it
yourself.
>> So what do YOU have that
>>says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
>The Vatican does keep a list of those who have not been
>excommunicated. It is called the Baptismal Registry and is kept in
>every parish.
Run over to Berlin and check the records.
>>>May I suggest that if they were we all would have heard about it, right?
>>A really far-fetched comment if I ever heard one.
>You thinking about feltching again?>
Now, now, ds, you're using filthy langauge again.
duke
peter terry
burning documents....would the church describe my actions as a sin??
"duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3c80e0c3...@news.earthlink.net...
peter terry
> On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:37:23 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> >By this response I can only presume that you have evidence supporting
> >that
> >> >they WERE excommunicated.
>
> >> Not me, bud. I have no information at all. So what do YOU have that
> >> says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
>
> >The fact that the Vatican has never claimed to have excommunicated either
of
> >them is evidence enough.
>
> Again, how do you know the Vatican has never excommunicated them?
>
> Answer - you don't. You made a wild statement and got caught.
>
nothing except to show how desperate you have become in your efforts to trip
me up.
Goodness knows why?
PeterT
peter terry
> On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:32:45 GMT, dvs519 <dvs...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Not me, bud. I have no information at all.
> >So true.
>
> If you want to know if Hitler was excommunicated, so research it
> yourself.
>
> >> So what do YOU have that
> >>says they were not. You made the statement - now back it up.
> >The Vatican does keep a list of those who have not been
> >excommunicated. It is called the Baptismal Registry and is kept in
> >every parish.
>
> Run over to Berlin and check the records.
>
extensively checked.
Given the drama surrounding the war time relationship between the CC the
Nazis the church would love nothing better than to declare with supporting
evidence that it had excommunicated Hitler and many of his Catholic cronies.
It hasn't because it didn't.....end of story!
PeterT
peter terry
> duke
>
peter terry
"Scout Lady" <ekvd6gh3f...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:GXeg8.19989$HR3.290...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...> news:3c81607d$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
your
> point?
>
How can a non Catholic be excommunicated unless your insisting that
birthright somehow makes one catholic eternally?
peter terry
absence."
> dear boy.
>
GAWD...it's all pretty pathetic isn't it.
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c800...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:ovSf8.21059$s03.6...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> > Yet you refuse to answer my question......show me a single religion or
> group
> > of people that can boast of he\aving not one person who is sinless...
> >
> Not anyone you would know after all you mix with Catholics.
I "mix" with Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, Muslims, Atheits, Agnostics,
Baptists, Fundamentalists, etc....I do not choose my friends based on their
faith, but on thier actions...
And still, you cannot answer my question...
> >
> > So....are you or are you not casting stones? As far as jesus...well,
> > Catholics are taught that *He* is without sin....are you claiming you
are
> as
> > well?
> >
> No
>
> Jesus was without mortal sin but according to Catholic doctrine it could
> also be said that he was with minor or venial sin..(smashing peoples wares
> within the scene of the money changers and his character assassination of
> the Pharisees could be interpreted as him loosing his cool and a minor
sin?)
Hmmmm...The Great Flood-God destroyed the entire world....Sodom and
Gomorrah...God destroyed an entire city...both actions because of the
apparent absolute sinfulness of the people....so you are now saying God has
sinned? And, sin you say "according to Catholic Doctrine", I would expect
you to be able to back this up with actual fact-the Catholic Catechism (the
official statement of Catholic Doctrine) would be a good start--please cite
the exact place that Catholic Doctrine states that Jesus was with minor sin
in this-or any- instance....
No wonder you seem confused...
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c815...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> If I went into the Vatican bank tomorrow and began smashing computers and
> burning documents....would the church describe my actions as a sin??
Again...putting yourself on Jesus' level.....
SumBuny4Me
>
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:LzTf8.21122$s03.7...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> Nope.
> >
> > > Jesus teachings are quite explanatory in this....mass murder is a sin
> > > against the holy Spirit and a sin against the Holy Spirit is NEVER
> > forgiven.
> >
> > Chapter and verse that states that God cannot forgive this? That these
> > specific actions are unforgivable by God?
> >
> Anything is possible...but if we had to hedge our bets on whether God
would
> forgive Hitler for his crimes as opposed to you and I for sin I would
> categorically
> say that Hitler would be a goner....right?
I, a human, would assUme that, but I make no postive assertions on who is in
heaven, and who is not-that is for GOD to decide....to make such postive
assertions in this matter is to presume to know the mind of God...
Otherwise, if you know something that no one else does-how?
> >
> > Also...are you saying that you presume to know what God
> > plans/thinks/decides?...
> >
> YOU made this assertion NOT mois Buny...maam. :-)
YOU were the one who made this assertion...the statment that:
"Such arch-criminals are honoured with catholic funerals and, like Mafia
members,
die with the assurance that their Church will continue to say Masses in
order to get them out of Purgatory and eventually into heaven. It is an
insurance policy that very few allow to lapse completely."
We do this because WE DO NOT KNOW the final destination of anyone...I have
posed the question about Judas Iscariot here as well...it is possible that
even he is in heaven-he could have made a perfect act of contrition in the
final moments of life, could have finally "gotten it" about Jesus...only one
thing is certain-a lot of people upon their deaths are going to be very
surprised at who is-and who is not- in heaven...
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>If I went into the Vatican bank tomorrow and began smashing computers and
>burning documents....would the church describe my actions as a sin??
I'm suspect they would, in addition to filing civil charges against
you for illegal tresspass and destruction of personal/sacred property.
Jesus threw the money changers out for desecrating his Father's house.
Hardly a true comparison with what you propose doing.
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> >The fact that the Vatican has never claimed to have excommunicated either
>of them is evidence enough.
>> Again, how do you know the Vatican has never excommunicated them?
>> Answer - you don't. You made a wild statement and got caught.
>Stop beating your hands against your chest...you have proven absolutely
>nothing except to show how desperate you have become in your efforts to trip
>me up.
You're the one that made a wild statement. I'm only asking you to
substantiate your claim.
Hint - you can't.
>Goodness knows why?
>PeterT
Goodness knows why you would make a silly statement about the RCC and
Hitler.
Hint - you made a wild and unfounded statement, and got caught.
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> Run over to Berlin and check the records.
>Your very naive...you can bet your last dollar that these records have been
>extensively checked.
>Given the drama surrounding the war time relationship between the CC the
>Nazis the church would love nothing better than to declare with supporting
>evidence that it had excommunicated Hitler and many of his Catholic cronies.
Well, did it or didn't it.
>It hasn't because it didn't.....end of story!
>PeterT
And you have no idea at all what has occurred, and neither do I.
You're right - end of your silly story.
duke
duke32
>Duke is now dunce.
Why so, pt? You're the one that got caught making a stupid comment.
Want to change your tune?
duke
duke32
End of your silly story, pt.
duke
peter terry
in answering.
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
news:2%tg8.24958$s03.8...@news2.east.cox.net...
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
>
>
> "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c800...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> >
> > "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> > news:ovSf8.21059$s03.6...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > >
> > > Yet you refuse to answer my question......show me a single religion or
> > group
> > > of people that can boast of he\aving not one person who is sinless...
> > >
> > Not anyone you would know after all you mix with Catholics.
>
> I "mix" with Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, Muslims, Atheits, Agnostics,
> Baptists, Fundamentalists, etc....I do not choose my friends based on
their
> faith, but on thier actions...
>
>
> And still, you cannot answer my question...
>
two you would not be able to verify because truth does not
exist in size nor age hence you can not go to an Internet site
to confirm..get it?
> > >
> > > So....are you or are you not casting stones? As far as jesus...well,
> > > Catholics are taught that *He* is without sin....are you claiming you
> are
> > as
> > > well?
> > >
> > No
> >
> > Jesus was without mortal sin but according to Catholic doctrine it could
> > also be said that he was with minor or venial sin..(smashing peoples
wares
> > within the scene of the money changers and his character assassination
of
> > the Pharisees could be interpreted as him loosing his cool and a minor
> sin?)
>
> Hmmmm...The Great Flood-God destroyed the entire world....
>
>
>Sodom and
> Gomorrah...
>
Nope....except in the minds of zealots.
>
>God destroyed an entire city...both actions because of the
> apparent absolute sinfulness of the people....
>
cities in fire and earthquakes....so perhaps you would like to
present the group with some kinds of evidence that contravenes what
I am saying...And please don't quote the OT as the bible is NOT
an historic document.
>
>so you are now saying God has
> sinned?
>
If I did the same at the catholic church you would call me a sinner.
It seem you have one rule for a mythical god-king-Jesus and
another for everyone else.
Now that's typically historically catholic right?
>
>And, sin you say "according to Catholic Doctrine",
>
If I smashed up the vatican all you cathos will call me a sinner..right?
I did ask you a direct question on this however you avoided answering
but responded with some smart nonsense inquiring as to whether I'm God.
>
>I would expect
> you to be able to back this up with actual fact-the Catholic Catechism
(the
> official statement of Catholic Doctrine) would be a good start--please
cite
> the exact place that Catholic Doctrine states that Jesus was with minor
sin
> in this-or any- instance....
>
Quite frankly I wouldn't waste my time doing the search....and you
have been so brainwashed with the mythical Jesus-God-King
rubbish that you have forgotten that Jesus was an historic
figure with feelings and anger.
>
> No wonder you seem confused...
>
>
Look whose confused now....Hitler was never excommunicated from the church..
end of story right?
In my opinion he is subject to eternal disgrace in spit of the thousands of
$$$
the church has probably made saying mass to get him out of wherever you
think he might be.
PeterT
peter terry
> On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 23:22:37 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >If I went into the Vatican bank tomorrow and began smashing computers and
> >burning documents....would the church describe my actions as a sin??
>
> I'm suspect they would, in addition to filing civil charges against
> you for illegal tresspass and destruction of personal/sacred property.
>
> Jesus threw the money changers out for desecrating his Father's house.
>
sign out side of the vatican.
Give back to Jesus what the CC claims is his anyway..the proceeds from the
sale would go to the poor.
peter terry
> On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 23:25:24 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> >The fact that the Vatican has never claimed to have excommunicated
either
> >of them is evidence enough.
>
> >> Again, how do you know the Vatican has never excommunicated them?
>
> >> Answer - you don't. You made a wild statement and got caught.
>
> >Stop beating your hands against your chest...you have proven absolutely
> >nothing except to show how desperate you have become in your efforts to
trip
> >me up.
>
> You're the one that made a wild statement. I'm only asking you to
> substantiate your claim.
>
> Hint - you can't.
>
that hitler was excommunicated from-by the church.
Why is there NO evidence?
Because he was NOT because the church was on his side.
Now if you have evidence to the contrary then the WORLD would love to see
it.
I'm all ears mate????
peter terry
no such documentation exists supporting that he was.
Thus.
My claim that he wasn't MUST stand.
You loose...again. ;-)
peter terry
it must be correct to assume that Hitler was not officially
excommunicated......not to mention all the other Catholic Nazis who worked
with him.
> duke
>
peter terry
not your attempted debunking of it.
Shall we toss on it. :-)
lol
> duke
>
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
blood....and worshiping a Roman cross with a sad and lamenting figure of a
bleeding man on it that the church still can't reveal the secrets of life
and death to you? And all those sacrifices and millions who have died in the
interest of the furtherance of the religion? Not to meantion enough Hail
Mary's and Glory be that probably equal every grain of sand on the planet.
Gee bunny I would like to suggest that the CC has let YOU down, big time.
I can't believe that after all that the Church still doesn't know what
happens after you die. Well your quite correct in your assertion the church
has NOT told you and it's because it does still NOT know.
However you should not presume that some don't know...
Matt 13:11...Luke 8:10...Mark 4:11
PeterT
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> I'm suspect they would, in addition to filing civil charges against
>> you for illegal tresspass and destruction of personal/sacred property.
>>
>> Jesus threw the money changers out for desecrating his Father's house.
>Oh I would do the same trust me...including the erection of a "for sale"
>sign out side of the vatican.
>Give back to Jesus what the CC claims is his anyway..the proceeds from the
>sale would go to the poor.
How is selling all the Vatican "treasure" giving it back to Jesus?
And after the proceeds go to the poor "the first time", then the
proceeds are gone forever, and the treasure is now in the hands of the
treasure hunters who absolutely will not use it to help the poor any
more.
Did you mean it in another way?
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> You're the one that made a wild statement. I'm only asking you to
>> substantiate your claim.
>> Hint - you can't.
>Stop being ridiculous...I have never ever read any scholar that has claimed
>that hitler was excommunicated from-by the church.
Which just destroyed your own case - you have no substantiation for
your wild statement.
>Why is there NO evidence?
I didn't say one way or the other. You are the one that made the
silly statement that Hitler was never excommunicated. I'm the one
that asked you to substantiate your claim.
>Because he was NOT because the church was on his side.
>Now if you have evidence to the contrary then the WORLD would love to see
>it.
I have no evidence - I made no claim.
YOU are the one that make the claim - you have no evidence.
>I'm all ears mate????
Backup your statement - where is your evidence?
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>NO vatican scholar has ever claimed that Hitler was excommunicated because
>no such documentation exists supporting that he was.
How do you know no such documentation exists?
>Thus.
>My claim that he wasn't MUST stand.
>You loose...again. ;-)
Sure your statement stands - totally unsubstantiated.
duke
duke32
That doesn't prove anything. Assumptions and wild guesses abound when
lacking in evidence - by definiton.
You prove nothing, you assume everything.
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> Why so, pt? You're the one that got caught making a stupid comment.
>> Want to change your tune?
>Why do I need to change my mind given that the facts support my conclusion
>not your attempted debunking of it.
You have no facts, by your own admission.
>Shall we toss on it. :-)
I don't need to. You are the one trying to prove a fully
unsubstantiated assumption.
duke
SumBuny4Me
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:2%tg8.24958$s03.8...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> >
> >
> > "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3c815...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > If I went into the Vatican bank tomorrow and began smashing computers
> and
> > > burning documents....would the church describe my actions as a sin??
> >
> >
> > Again...putting yourself on Jesus' level.....
> Nope..only asking a simple question which you appear to have some
difficulty
> in answering.
>
First...You are asking if you took actions *similar* to Jesus'
actions.....is this not trying to place yourself in an equal position?
Second...what you propose-smashing church property, burning church papers-
is NOT what Jesus did. He did not burn Temple documents, nor smash temple
property. The people outside (the money changers, the sellers of animals)
who were taking advantage of the pilgrims (who had to convert their foreign
money to Temple money, and buy the "pure" animals) by taking huge
commissions on their interchange. THAT was what Jesus was taking issue
with...
Now, if you were to run off people scalping in front of the Vatican-THAT is
what Jesus did-would I consider that a sin? Probably not...
SumBuny4Me
SumBuny4Me
> I did....and now reiterate that while I might be able to list one or
> two you would not be able to verify because truth does not
> exist in size nor age hence you can not go to an Internet site
> to confirm..get it?
Ah, and "if it is on the internet it *must* be true"....right....
> >
> > Hmmmm...The Great Flood-God destroyed the entire world....
> >
> No it didn't nor is there any geological evidence supporting this either.
Since you believe that if it is on the internet, it must be true....not to
mention the site being part of the reputable National Geographic...there is
evidence of a cataclysmic flood invloving a very large area in a rapid
pace-people were forced to move over a mile a day
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/events/releases/pr991117.html
> >
> That's all myth and superstition...natural means destroy
> cities in fire and earthquakes....so perhaps you would like to
> present the group with some kinds of evidence that contravenes what
> I am saying...And please don't quote the OT as the bible is NOT
> an historic document.
Don't have to-you did....but I have shown that evidence has been found to
corroborate the great Flood....studies are also ongoing to show a massive
subsidence on the southern end of the Dead Sea at about the same time as the
stories of Soddom and Gomorrah....n most legends is at least some kind of
grain of truth.
As far as "natural means"...even the 10 plagues of Egypt have been shown to
b scientifically possible under "natural means"...BUT...the chances of all
10 happening in relatively quick succession...possible, but unlikely. So
God can use natural means to achieve His ends-or are you putting limits on
God?
"The Laws of Physics"...didn't God "write" these laws, and enforce them?
> >
> >so you are now saying God has
> > sinned?
> >
> I said Jesus' momentary act of violence can be interpreted as a sin.
> If I did the same at the catholic church you would call me a sinner.
Again-if you ran off scalpers-probably not....
> It seem you have one rule for a mythical god-king-Jesus and
> another for everyone else.
Nope...but you sure do....
> If I smashed up the vatican all you cathos will call me a sinner..right?
Yes...but that is NOT what Jesus did....see above
>
> I did ask you a direct question on this however you avoided answering
> but responded with some smart nonsense inquiring as to whether I'm God.
Nope...I asked if you presumed to be His equal, to know His mind...and what
you compared was apples and peas-not even comparing the same food
classification as apples/oranges...
> >
> Quite frankly I wouldn't waste my time doing the search....
And you demand others to "prove you wrong" about Hitler...why should *we* do
your homework when you give answers like this one??
> >
> Look whose confused now....Hitler was never excommunicated from the
church..
> end of story right?
Lack of proof from the person making the claim....
>
> In my opinion he is subject to eternal disgrace in spit of the thousands
of
> $$$
> the church has probably made saying mass to get him out of wherever you
> think he might be.
Possible...perhaps even likely-but NO ONE but God knows for sure.....
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
>
> "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c830930$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> > news:2%tg8.24958$s03.8...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> > > news:3c815...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > > If I went into the Vatican bank tomorrow and began smashing
computers
> > and
> > > > burning documents....would the church describe my actions as a sin??
> > >
> > >
> > > Again...putting yourself on Jesus' level....
>
> > Nope..only asking a simple question which you appear to have some
> difficulty
> > in answering.
> >
>
> First...You are asking if you took actions *similar* to Jesus'
> actions.....is this not trying to place yourself in an equal position?
>
Not at all...
>
> Second...what you propose-smashing church property, burning church papers-
> is NOT what Jesus did. He did not burn Temple documents, nor smash temple
> property. The people outside (the money changers, the sellers of animals)
> who were taking advantage of the pilgrims (who had to convert their
foreign
> money to Temple money, and buy the "pure" animals) by taking huge
> commissions on their interchange. THAT was what Jesus was taking issue
> with...
>
We don't know exactly what Jesus did do we.
> Now, if you were to run off people scalping in front of the Vatican-THAT
is
> what Jesus did-would I consider that a sin? Probably not...
>
Whatas going down within the walls of the vatican is NO different to the
what's happening outside.
peter terry
house of Christ.
> Did you mean it in another way?
>
"It is easier for a camel to pass threw the eye of a needle that it is for a
rich man to get to the kingdom of heaven"
It's impossible for a camel to pas threw a needle...
Jesus advocated a certain life style by his example..The vatican residents
live like kings and emperors.
> duke
>
peter terry
"SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
>
> "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c830...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > I did....and now reiterate that while I might be able to list one or
> > two you would not be able to verify because truth does not
> > exist in size nor age hence you can not go to an Internet site
> > to confirm..get it?
>
> Ah, and "if it is on the internet it *must* be true"....right....
>
>
> > >
> > > Hmmmm...The Great Flood-God destroyed the entire world....
> > >
> > No it didn't nor is there any geological evidence supporting this
either.
>
> Since you believe that if it is on the internet, it must be true....not to
> mention the site being part of the reputable National Geographic...there
is
> evidence of a cataclysmic flood invloving a very large area in a rapid
> pace-people were forced to move over a mile a day
> http://www.nationalgeographic.com/events/releases/pr991117.html
>
should be found on mountains.
This line you peddling is "quasi science" pushed by fundies..95% of
scientists, geologists and historians disagree with you.
> > That's all myth and superstition...natural means destroy
> > cities in fire and earthquakes....so perhaps you would like to
> > present the group with some kinds of evidence that contravenes what
> > I am saying...And please don't quote the OT as the bible is NOT
> > an historic document.
>
> Don't have to-you did....but I have shown that evidence has been found to
> corroborate the great Flood....
> studies are also ongoing to show a massive
> subsidence on the southern end of the Dead Sea at about the same time as
the
> stories of Soddom and Gomorrah....n most legends is at least some kind of
> grain of truth.
>
That's NOT a study at all ..and your theories are rejected by REAL
scientists, not American fundies who have been proven over and over again to
be wrong in their evaluation. When I find the time I will undertake a major
posting on this.
Most geologists in the Middle East are now saying that there is NO evidence
of most of the myths covered in the OT.
Fundie scientists tried to prove the existence of Noahs arc but were all
found to be frauds.
You are vulnerable to this nonsense for obvious reasons.
>
> As far as "natural means"...even the 10 plagues of Egypt have been shown
to
> b scientifically possible under "natural means"...BUT...the chances of all
> 10 happening in relatively quick succession...possible, but unlikely. So
> God can use natural means to achieve His ends-or are you putting limits on
> God?
>
WHERE WHERE WHERE?
>
> "The Laws of Physics"...didn't God "write" these laws, and enforce them?
>
So?
peter terry
catholic church.
> duke
>
>
Alan Ferris
>
>"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
>news:3c830...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>> I did....and now reiterate that while I might be able to list one or
>> two you would not be able to verify because truth does not
>> exist in size nor age hence you can not go to an Internet site
>> to confirm..get it?
>
>Ah, and "if it is on the internet it *must* be true"....right....
No only if a Catholic posts it.
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
Denizen of Darkness #42
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A pervert once again strikes.. posing as Duke......"
<granp...@earthlink.net> 21/01/02
-----------
"This does not belong in this post......It was copied or cut and pasted by
you......" <granp...@earthlink.net> 23/01/02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.arcerland.com
ICQ UIN: 12811297
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c842...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:PlTg8.28362$s03.9...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Second...what you propose-smashing church property, burning church
papers-
> > is NOT what Jesus did. He did not burn Temple documents, nor smash
temple
> > property. The people outside (the money changers, the sellers of
animals)
> > who were taking advantage of the pilgrims (who had to convert their
> foreign
> > money to Temple money, and buy the "pure" animals) by taking huge
> > commissions on their interchange. THAT was what Jesus was taking issue
> > with...
> >
> We don't know exactly what Jesus did do we.
And exactly *who* was it that Jesus drove out of the Temple *grounds* (note
that this is *outside* of the temple)? the priests? No...the moneychangers
and the sellers of animals...and if you were to study about the practices of
the times, and put it in the full cultural context, you would know that He
was running out scalpers...people taking advantage of the pilgrims to the
temple...
>
> > Now, if you were to run off people scalping in front of the Vatican-THAT
> is
> > what Jesus did-would I consider that a sin? Probably not...
> >
> Whatas going down within the walls of the vatican is NO different to the
> what's happening outside.
I would be interested to see your proof of this...the implication in your
response to me asking about scalping is that you assert that there is
scalping going on in front of the Vatican (which I did not claim as fact),
and the same going on inside...proof is your responsibility, otherwise, this
could be construed as libel.
SumBuny4Me
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c843...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:LATg8.28365$s03.9...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> > Since you believe that if it is on the internet, it must be true....not
to
> > mention the site being part of the reputable National Geographic...there
> is
> > evidence of a cataclysmic flood invloving a very large area in a rapid
> > pace-people were forced to move over a mile a day
> > http://www.nationalgeographic.com/events/releases/pr991117.html
> >
> Sweetheart the earth rose up out of the ocean so naturally fish fossils
> should be found on mountains.
>
> This line you peddling is "quasi science" pushed by fundies..95% of
> scientists, geologists and historians disagree with you.
Hmmm...I didn't know that the ntional Geogrpahic Society was propaganda for
fundamentalists...how do you reconcile all the articles on evoluntion, the
age of the universe, the ongoing studies of these ancient geological changes
involving the Black Sea flooding and the massive subsidence in the southern
Dead Sea region-some of these have been repeatedly refuted by most
fundamentalists...
> That's NOT a study at all ..and your theories are rejected by REAL
> scientists, not American fundies who have been proven over and over again
to
> be wrong in their evaluation. When I find the time I will undertake a
major
> posting on this.
See above....I cited the National Geographic Society-and you cited...what???
>
> Most geologists in the Middle East are now saying that there is NO
evidence
> of most of the myths covered in the OT.
Again...see above.....
> You are vulnerable to this nonsense for obvious reasons.
> >
> > As far as "natural means"...even the 10 plagues of Egypt have been shown
> to
> > b scientifically possible under "natural means"...BUT...the chances of
all
> > 10 happening in relatively quick succession...possible, but unlikely.
So
> > God can use natural means to achieve His ends-or are you putting limits
on
> > God?
> >
> WHERE WHERE WHERE?
Why do I have to aceed to your demands for cites, when I have yet to see any
of yours? And you refute the one I posted above from a reputable scientific
organisation as "run by fundamentalists" without proof...but just so I do
not sink to your level....
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/plagues.html
Clemson University (another "hotbed of fundamentalism"?) also explains that
God can use natural means-however unlikely to occur in specific orders- to
achieve His goals...
http://people.clemson.edu/~sf/books/apology/Chapter6.html
> >
> > "The Laws of Physics"...didn't God "write" these laws, and enforce them?
> >
> So?
But you debunk any out of the ordinary events that God does because He uses
these laws....the implication is that because it could be a natural
occurance, then God didn't do it...
SumBuny4Me
"Alan Ferris" <al...@ildana.com> wrote in message
news:iat88ucnhvfoe2rkh...@4ax.com...
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote ...
> >
> >"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:3c830...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> >> I did....and now reiterate that while I might be able to list one or
> >> two you would not be able to verify because truth does not
> >> exist in size nor age hence you can not go to an Internet site
> >> to confirm..get it?
> >
> >Ah, and "if it is on the internet it *must* be true"....right....
>
> No only if a Catholic posts it.
Hey....I have admitted to mistakes.....one of the main advantages to the
Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession...(and I apologize for not making my
sarcasm more evident...)
Bruce LaMore
SumBuny4Me <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote in message
'Ol Pete just admitted that he doesn't really know what Jesus did during
"The Cleansing of the Temple", making any comments of his, concerning the
topic, inconsequential.
Score:
Bunny- 1, 'Ol Pete- 0.
>
>
> >
> > > Now, if you were to run off people scalping in front of the
Vatican-THAT
> > is
> > > what Jesus did-would I consider that a sin? Probably not...
> > >
> > Whatas going down within the walls of the vatican is NO different to the
> > what's happening outside.
Another inconsequential comment from 'Ol Pete, cause he doesn't have a clue
about what's going on inside or outside the "Vatican Walls". He just makes
things up as he goes along.
Bruce
--
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."
-Andy Taylor, Sheriff of Mayberry, RFD
Alan Ferris
>
>
>
>"Alan Ferris" <al...@ildana.com> wrote in message
>news:iat88ucnhvfoe2rkh...@4ax.com...
>> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote ...
>> >
>> >"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
>> >news:3c830...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>> >> I did....and now reiterate that while I might be able to list one or
>> >> two you would not be able to verify because truth does not
>> >> exist in size nor age hence you can not go to an Internet site
>> >> to confirm..get it?
>> >
>> >Ah, and "if it is on the internet it *must* be true"....right....
>>
>> No only if a Catholic posts it.
>
>
>Hey....I have admitted to mistakes.....one of the main advantages to the
>Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession...(and I apologize for not making my
>sarcasm more evident...)
And mine, sorry that should have had a smiley at the end.
I still cannot hold a straight face since Ted Seber told me that only
catholic sources were accurate, he would only accept word definitions
by a Catholic Dictionary :)
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> How is selling all the Vatican "treasure" giving it back to Jesus?
>> And after the proceeds go to the poor "the first time", then the
>> proceeds are gone forever, and the treasure is now in the hands of the
>> treasure hunters who absolutely will not use it to help the poor any
>> more.
>The vatican is the result of an evolved multi billion $$$ monarchy not the
>house of Christ.
Sorry, the bible says you are wrong.
>> Did you mean it in another way?
>>
>"It is easier for a camel to pass threw the eye of a needle that it is for a
>rich man to get to the kingdom of heaven"
Do rich people not go to heaven? Is this richness determined in terms
of $$$, or love, or compassion, etc?
What is the eye of a needle in the bible? How does a camel enter the
picture?
>It's impossible for a camel to pas threw a needle...
>Jesus advocated a certain life style by his example..The vatican residents
>live like kings and emperors.
Yeah, sure they do.
duke
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>It's sounding to me I need to do another full post on Hitler and the
>catholic church.
Hey, if it lights your barbie, go for it. Remember, the Jewish people
pretty much agree and are satisfied and happy with the Pope's actions
on their behalf during WWII. You're not exactly posting new stuff on
the events - it's been heavily discussed lately.
duke
SumBuny4Me
"Alan Ferris" <al...@ildana.com> wrote in message
news:ff3a8u4rfvptih6fm...@4ax.com...
> "SumBuny4Me" <sumbuny@TAKE THIS OUTcox.net> wrote ...
> >
> >Hey....I have admitted to mistakes.....one of the main advantages to the
> >Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession...(and I apologize for not making
my
> >sarcasm more evident...)
>
> And mine, sorry that should have had a smiley at the end.
>
> I still cannot hold a straight face since Ted Seber told me that only
> catholic sources were accurate, he would only accept word definitions
> by a Catholic Dictionary :)
Hmmm...I missed that one, and now understand the "in joke"..... :-)
Bruce LaMore
'Ol Pete just wants to prove once again that he is both redundant and
niggling. But he always good for a laugh!
Bruce
--
"Better to remain silent and thought to be a fool, than to open your mouth
and remove all doubt."
--Mark Twain
dvs519
Hey duckie, show us your paper from the Vatican that says you are NOT
excommunicated.
Your church does not issue non-excomunication lists. I thought you
knew EVERYTHING about your church?
====================
Dave by the Beach
Redondo Beach
Southern California
Will Nordmeyer
"dvs519" <dvs...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a57c8u88sraptg0kc...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:33:43 GMT, duk...@earthlink.net (duke32) wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 06:20:14 GMT, "peter terry"
> ><namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >>NO vatican scholar has ever claimed that Hitler was excommunicated
because
> >>no such documentation exists supporting that he was.
> >
> >How do you know no such documentation exists?
> >
> >>Thus.
> >>My claim that he wasn't MUST stand.
> >>You loose...again. ;-)
> >
> >Sure your statement stands - totally unsubstantiated.
> >
> >duke
>
> Hey duckie, show us your paper from the Vatican that says you are NOT
> excommunicated.
>
> Your church does not issue non-excomunication lists. I thought you
> knew EVERYTHING about your church?
>
No government issues non-conviction lists... DUH...
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source
duke32
>Hey duckie, show us your paper from the Vatican that says you are NOT
>excommunicated.
>Your church does not issue non-excomunication lists. I thought you
>knew EVERYTHING about your church?
I didn't say it did.
Yonder prior person pt said Hitler was not excommunicated. I only
asked him for proof/backup to his wild comment.
duke
peter terry
buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values, Adolph
Hitler.
I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
would of hard about it.
THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
PeterT
> duke
>
R. L. Measures
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
€ Amen, PeterT. Also, the architect of the Final Solution at the
Wannasee Conference in 1941, was Reinhard Heydrich, another good RC who,
like the RCC, passionately hated the "Christ Killers".
--
Rich, 805-386-3734, www.vcnet.com/measures (radio)
www.vcnet.com/measures/library.html (org. religion)
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>This debate has reached the absurd and here we have the likes of duke and
>buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values, Adolph
>Hitler.
>I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
Strange comment, pt. It's simply an attack question against the RCC.
A typical stupid comment, but one worthy of dismantling immediately.
>If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
>would of hard about it.
You wouldn't have heard a word. You apparent misinterpretation with
what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
>THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
his actions against the Nazi.
duke
*****
One day every tongue
Will confess You are God.
One day every knee will bow.
Still the greatest treasure remains
For those who gladly choose you now.
*****
R. L. Measures
(duke32) wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:22:44 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >This debate has reached the absurd and here we have the likes of duke and
> >buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values, Adolph
> >Hitler.
>
> >I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
>
> Strange comment, pt. It's simply an attack question against the RCC.
> A typical stupid comment, but one worthy of dismantling immediately.
>
> >If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
> >would of hard about it.
>
> You wouldn't have heard a word. You apparent misinterpretation with
> what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
> historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
> years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
> far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
>
> >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
>
> Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
> his actions against the Nazi.
>
€ Such praise came decades before the Argentine government disclosed
(Feb., 1992) that Nazi war criminals (Mengele, Eichmann were some) escaped
to Argentina in 1945 on passports that were issued by the Pope Pius XII.
However, Pius XIII was responsible for saving some Italian Jews from the
death factories.
peter terry
> On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:22:44 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >This debate has reached the absurd and here we have the likes of duke and
> >buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values, Adolph
> >Hitler.
>
> >I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
>
> Strange comment, pt. It's simply an attack question against the RCC.
> A typical stupid comment, but one worthy of dismantling immediately.
>
> >If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
> >would of hard about it.
>
> You wouldn't have heard a word.
>
an effort to distance him from the church.
>
>You apparent misinterpretation with
> what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
> historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
> years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
> far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
>
that theory go which says that the first seven years of a child's life are
it's most formative and most impressionable. Those early developing stages
are themselves the blueprint behind later adult perceptions.
>
> >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
>
> Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
> his actions against the Nazi.
>
quite the opposite...including the recent book by a prominent Jew (name
escapes me) who says that the wartime Pope was a Nazi sympathiser..
PeterT
peter terry
"R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
news:2-1003021...@port83.dial.vcnet.com...
> In article <3c8bf086....@news.earthlink.net>, duk...@earthlink.net
> (duke32) wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:22:44 GMT, "peter terry"
> > <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >This debate has reached the absurd and here we have the likes of duke
and
> > >buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values, Adolph
> > >Hitler.
> >
> > >I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
> >
> > Strange comment, pt. It's simply an attack question against the RCC.
> > A typical stupid comment, but one worthy of dismantling immediately.
> >
> > >If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
> > >would of hard about it.
> >
> > You wouldn't have heard a word. You apparent misinterpretation with
> > what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
> > historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
> > years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
> > far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
> >
> > >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
> >
> > Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
> > his actions against the Nazi.
> >
> (Feb., 1992) that Nazi war criminals (Mengele, Eichmann were some) escaped
> to Argentina in 1945 on passports that were issued by the Pope Pius XII.
> However, Pius XIII was responsible for saving some Italian Jews from the
> death factories.
>
R. L. Measures
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3c8bf086....@news.earthlink.net...
> > On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:22:44 GMT, "peter terry"
> > <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >This debate has reached the absurd and here we have the likes of duke and
> > >buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values, Adolph
> > >Hitler.
> >
> > >I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
> >
> > Strange comment, pt. It's simply an attack question against the RCC.
> > A typical stupid comment, but one worthy of dismantling immediately.
> >
> > >If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
> > >would of hard about it.
> >
> > You wouldn't have heard a word.
> >
> Rubbish..The vatican spin doctors would be clambering to break the news in
> an effort to distance him from the church.
> >
€ chortle. Der Fuehrer is hardly good PR.
> >You apparent misinterpretation with
> > what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
> > historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
> > years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
> > far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
> >
> Hitler was born, baptised and raised within a Catholic environment. How does
> that theory go which says that the first seven years of a child's life are
> it's most formative and most impressionable.
€ Yea, verily, Peter. And, as an added bonus, Hitler's dad taught RC
catechism class.
>Those early developing stages
> are themselves the blueprint behind later adult perceptions.
> >
€ When I was a child, a RC theologian said something like give us a child
through the age of six, and the die is cast.
> > >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
> >
> > Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
> > his actions against the Nazi.
> >
> Stop generalising...Would you like me to post articles where many Jews claim
> quite the opposite...including the recent book by a prominent Jew (name
> escapes me) who says that the wartime Pope was a Nazi sympathiser..
>
€ Dawidowicz, Lucy. **The War Against the Jews**, 1975.
- The laugher about Eugenio Pacelli/alias Pius XII was that he was
reportedly a Germanist with a yen for spicy deutche-wurst
(German-sausage), however, God gave him a gastrointestinal system that
wasn't quite up to the formidable task. Eugenio reportedly died after a
severe bout of GI distress in 1958. I guess one could say his suffering
was the wurst. If God's one true church is right about suffering being
one of the paths to salvation, Eugenio should make it with room to
spare.
- Perhaps Adolph and Eugenio hit it off because both were anti-communists
and both were Roman Catholics - like Senator Joe McCarthy ? If Eugenio
ever makes it to sainthood, maybe there's a chance for Joe ?
cheers, PeterT
--
R. L. Measures
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> news:2-1003021...@port83.dial.vcnet.com...
> > In article <3c8bf086....@news.earthlink.net>, duk...@earthlink.net
> > (duke32) wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:22:44 GMT, "peter terry"
> > > <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > >This debate has reached the absurd and here we have the likes of duke and
> > > >buny becoming apologists for that pinnacle of Catholic values,
Adolph Hitler.
> > >
> > > >I guess you both probably nod off to sleep everynight to Mien Kampf.
> > >
> > > Strange comment, pt. It's simply an attack question against the RCC.
> > > A typical stupid comment, but one worthy of dismantling immediately.
> > >
> > > >If Hitler and his Catholic henchmen were excommunicated we sure as hell
> > > >would of heard about it.
> > >
> > > You wouldn't have heard a word. You apparent misinterpretation with
> > > what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
> > > historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
> > > years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
> > > far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
> > >
> > > >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
> > >
> > > Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
> > > his actions against the Nazi.
> > >
> > ? Such praise came decades before the Argentine government disclosed
> > (Feb., 1992) that Nazi war criminals (Mengele, Eichmann were some) escaped
> > to Argentina in 1945 on passports that were issued by the Pope Pius XII.
> > However, Pius XIII was responsible for saving some Italian Jews from the
> > death factories.
> >
> Indeed.
>
€ Unofficial history remains the greatest nemesis of God's one true church.
--
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> You wouldn't have heard a word.
>Rubbish..The vatican spin doctors would be clambering to break the news in
>an effort to distance him from the church.
No. Hitler, who may have been baptized in a CC, and studied
in a Catholic school as a youth would have no bearing on what he
became as he grew older. He clearly redirected his beliefs completely
away from the concept of Christianity.
>>You apparent misinterpretation with
>> what it means to be RC is very unqualifying for you. Hitler is a
>> historical fact, not someone bothers erasing from the roles from 50
>> years before. He nailed his bound-for-hell coffin shut on himself as
>> far as his Christianity and membership in the RCC are concerned.
>Hitler was born, baptised and raised within a Catholic environment. How does
>that theory go which says that the first seven years of a child's life are
>it's most formative and most impressionable. Those early developing stages
>are themselves the blueprint behind later adult perceptions.
And as Hitler proved, his first 7 years were totally lost when he made
a major aboutface.
>> >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
>>
>> Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
>> his actions against the Nazi.
>Stop generalising...Would you like me to post articles where many Jews claim
>quite the opposite...including the recent book by a prominent Jew (name
>escapes me) who says that the wartime Pope was a Nazi sympathiser..
Every 10-15 years, this subject comes up for some strange reason.
Each time it is set aside by actual facts including Jewish reports. I
too am looking for my papers on this matter, and they well date after
1992.
duke32
*****
"Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went
to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965."
The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish
writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope
supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives—more than
all the international agencies put together.
After the war the Chief Rabbi of Israel thanked Pius XII for what he
had done. The Chief Rabbi of Rome went one step further. He became a
Catholic. He took the name Eugenio.
Note that the quotes in this article are take from Fr Michael
O'Carroll's book Greatness Dishonoured, Dublin 1980.
Electronic Copyright © 1999 EWTN
All Rights Reserved
*****
Trey
> Hitler was born, baptised and raised within a Catholic environment. How
does
> that theory go which says that the first seven years of a child's life
are
> it's most formative and most impressionable. Those early developing stages
> are themselves the blueprint behind later adult perceptions.
Trey
> in a Catholic school as a youth would have no bearing on what he
> became as he grew older. He clearly redirected his beliefs completely
> away from the concept of Christianity.
Will Nordmeyer
"Trey" <tr...@apcrew.zzm.corn> wrote in message
news:u8q12hc...@corp.supernews.com...
have said...
R. L. Measures
(duke32) wrote:
> ...
€ So why did Cardinal Tisserant petition Pius XII to speak out against
the ongoing genocide of Jews during WW2?
peter terry
church.
>
Mind you the ratlines are well documented.
peter terry
>
> Note that the quotes in this article are take from Fr Michael
> O'Carroll's book Greatness Dishonoured, Dublin 1980.
>
Say no more..hahahahaha
peter terry
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:07:14 GMT, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> You wouldn't have heard a word.
>
> >Rubbish..The vatican spin doctors would be clambering to break the news
in
> >an effort to distance him from the church.
>
> No. Hitler, who may have been baptized in a CC, and studied
> in a Catholic school as a youth would have no bearing on what he
> became as he grew older. He clearly redirected his beliefs completely
> away from the concept of Christianity.
>
mistaken mate..
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
>
> >Hitler was born, baptised and raised within a Catholic environment. How
does
> >that theory go which says that the first seven years of a child's life
are
> >it's most formative and most impressionable. Those early developing
stages
> >are themselves the blueprint behind later adult perceptions.
>
> And as Hitler proved, his first 7 years were totally lost when he made
> a major aboutface.
>
Rubbish..Hitler was raised in a Catholic environment that taught that the
Jews rejected and murdered Jesus. His anti-Semitism was based upon a 1700
year victimisation and persecution of the Jews by the Roman Church.
Learn some real history duke!
>
> >Stop generalising...Would you like me to post articles where many Jews
claim
> >quite the opposite...including the recent book by a prominent Jew (name
> >escapes me) who says that the wartime Pope was a Nazi sympathiser..
>
> Every 10-15 years, this subject comes up for some strange reason.
> Each time it is set aside by actual facts including Jewish reports. I
> too am looking for my papers on this matter, and they well date after
> 1992.
>
So?
PeterT
Trey
on the net or was he hurt, I kinda miss him. Let me know if you know
anything on THAT matter.
Will Nordmeyer
"Trey" <tr...@apcrew.zzm.corn> wrote in message
Don't know... I wouldn't necessarily call him my friend. Just another
person so named... :-)
I have wondered myself, recently.
You doing better Trey?
R. L. Measures
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> news:2-1103020...@port200.dial.vcnet.com...
> > In article <3c8c81c5$1...@news.iprimus.com.au>, "peter terry"
> > <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >...
> > > > > >THEY WERE NOT because the church was a Nazi lap dog during WW2.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gee, and to think that Jewish reports have highly praised the Pope for
> > > > > his actions against the Nazi.
> > > > >
> > > > ? Such praise came decades before the Argentine government disclosed
> > > > (Feb., 1992) that Nazi war criminals (Mengele, Eichmann were some)
escaped
> > > > to Argentina in 1945 on passports that were issued by the Pope Pius XII.
> > > > However, Pius XIII was responsible for saving some Italian Jews from the
> > > > death factories.
> > > >
> > > Indeed.
> > >
> > ? Unofficial history remains the greatest nemesis of God's one true church.
> >
> Mind you the ratlines are well documented.
>
€ And now God's one true church is trying to beatify the pious Vicar of
Rats himself, Eugenio Pacelli. However, Herr SS Komandant of Auschwitz,
Adolph Eichmann and Dr. Joseph Mengele quite probably consider Pacelli to
be a most helpful saint.
Arghhh
--
R. L. Measures
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3c8cf406...@news.earthlink.net...
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 00:49:50 GMT, 2...@vc.net (R. L. Measures) wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Note that the quotes in this article are take from Fr Michael
> > O'Carroll's book Greatness Dishonoured, Dublin 1980.
> >
> Say no more..hahahahaha
>
€ I have never seen the book. Please explain.
R. L. Measures
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "Trey" <tr...@apcrew.zzm.corn> wrote in message
> news:u8q12hc...@corp.supernews.com...
> hahahahaha
> A lighter moment and you had me in hysterics..:-)
€ If Roman Catholicism is the religion founded by the person who called
himself "the Son of man". why then did the RCC fight tooth and Nail for
35-years to prevent publication of the only, known first-person accounts
of what this person taught during his several year mission here? (80% of
the scrolls from Cave-4 at Qumran)
Will Nordmeyer
> In article <3c8db8b1$1...@news.iprimus.com.au>, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> > "Trey" <tr...@apcrew.zzm.corn> wrote in message
> > news:u8q12hc...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > No. Hitler, who may have been baptized in a CC, and studied
> > > > in a Catholic school as a youth would have no bearing on what he
> > > > became as he grew older. He clearly redirected his beliefs
completely
> > > > away from the concept of Christianity.
> > >
> > >and straight in to catholicism
> > >
> > hahahahaha
> > A lighter moment and you had me in hysterics..:-)
>
called
> himself "the Son of man". why then did the RCC fight tooth and Nail
for
> 35-years to prevent publication of the only, known first-person
accounts
> of what this person taught during his several year mission here?
(80% of
> the scrolls from Cave-4 at Qumran)
>
R. L. Measures
<wi...@nospam.daytondigital.net> wrote:
> "R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> news:2-1303020...@port171.dial.vcnet.com...
> > In article <3c8db8b1$1...@news.iprimus.com.au>, "peter terry"
> > <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > "Trey" <tr...@apcrew.zzm.corn> wrote in message
> > > news:u8q12hc...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > No. Hitler, who may have been baptized in a CC, and studied
> > > > > in a Catholic school as a youth would have no bearing on what he
> > > > > became as he grew older. He clearly redirected his beliefs
> completely
> > > > > away from the concept of Christianity.
> > > >
> > > >and straight in to catholicism
> > > >
> > > hahahahaha
> > > A lighter moment and you had me in hysterics..:-)
> >
> > ? If Roman Catholicism is the religion founded by the person who called
> > himself "the Son of man". why then did the RCC fight tooth and Nail for
> > 35-years to prevent publication of the only, known first-person accounts
> > of what this person taught during his several year mission here? (80% of
> > the scrolls from Cave-4 at Qumran)
> >
> Gee. Rich... to first ENSURE their authenticity??? DUH.
>
€ There was little doubt about their authenticity. The Isaiah-scroll
found in Cave-Q1 in 1946 was scientifically dated c. 300 BC. Cave-Q4 had
records of events that are known to have taken place in the 1st Century
prior to the Roman destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. There are a
number of issues about what was written in Q4 documents. Examples:
Yeshua/the Son of man's followers apparently did not believe that he was
God. The Son of man spent time teaching groups of females, so they
apparently heard some things that the Disciples did not hear. His
teaching about the ascension of the human soul is at odds with the
teaching of God's one true church -- especially after 1572 and 1895. Just
as Islam, Baha'i, and Buddhism were meddled by men, so were the teachings
of the itinerant rabbi who called himself "the Son of man".
cheers, Will.
duke32
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>Get yourself informed duke..These links tend to prove that your quite
>mistaken mate..
>http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm
>http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
sorry, mate, but why should I believe a site that calls itself
"nobelief".
But, I might just look them up, just for a laugh.
>Rubbish..Hitler was raised in a Catholic environment that taught that the
>Jews rejected and murdered Jesus. His anti-Semitism was based upon a 1700
>year victimisation and persecution of the Jews by the Roman Church.
Hitler could have been raised in a Catholic environment for a while,
but that teaching falls out of the window when he changes his mind,
which he clearly did. His inhumanity to humanity is directly opposed
to the concept of Christiantiy.
>Learn some real history duke!
I think I have a real lock on it.
>> Every 10-15 years, this subject comes up for some strange reason.
>> Each time it is set aside by actual facts including Jewish reports. I
>> too am looking for my papers on this matter, and they well date after
>> 1992.
>So?
Just needs to be set aside as false as it always is each time it comes
up.
Will Nordmeyer
> The Isaiah-scroll found in Cave-Q1 in 1946 was scientifically dated c.
300 BC.
FIRST reason to authenticate... to scientifically date documents...
SECOND reason to authenticate - who's writings are they?
THIRD reason to authenticate - do they match with other historical
references?
> Cave-Q4 had records of events that are known to have taken place in
the 1st Century
> prior to the Roman destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Scrolls from the Essene Jews... a separatist sect that may or may not
have been fully knowledgable about the goings on.
> There are a number of issues about what was written in Q4 documents.
Yeah, so? The Bible says there's plenty of information about Jesus that
is not contained here...
> Examples: Yeshua/the Son of man's followers apparently did not
believe that he was God.
Not according to Jesus' followers...
> The Son of man spent time teaching groups of females, so they
> apparently heard some things that the Disciples did not hear.
A conclusion based on the fact that he taught women??? He also spent
time speaking to children... we don't know exactly what was said there
either... unless the Holy Spirit inspired one of the Gospel authors with
the knowledge to be able to write it down.
> His teaching about the ascension of the human soul is at odds with the
> teaching of God's one true church -- especially after 1572 and 1895.
Actually, it is not at odds at all... perhaps what you think A) JEsus
taught and B) the Church teaches is the problem..
R. L. Measures
<wi...@nospam.daytondigital.net> wrote:
> "R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> news:2-1303020...@port176.dial.vcnet.com...
> > In article <3c8f5193$1...@news5.uncensored-news.com>, "Will Nordmeyer"
> > <wi...@nospam.daytondigital.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ? If Roman Catholicism is the religion founded by the person who called
> > > > himself "the Son of man". why then did the RCC fight tooth and Nail for
> > > > 35-years to prevent publication of the only, known first-person accounts
> > > > of what this person taught during his several year mission here? (80% of
> > > > the scrolls from Cave-4 at Qumran)
> > > >
> > > Gee. Rich... to first ENSURE their authenticity??? DUH.
> > >
> > ? There was little doubt about their authenticity.
>
>
>
> > The Isaiah-scroll found in Cave-Q1 in 1946 was scientifically dated c.
300 BC.
> FIRST reason to authenticate... to scientifically date documents...
>
> SECOND reason to authenticate - who's writings are they?
>
> THIRD reason to authenticate - do they match with other historical
> references?
>
€ They do not match the record's of God's one true church.
> > Cave-Q4 had records of events that are known to have taken place in
the 1st Century
> > prior to the Roman destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
>
> Scrolls from the Essene Jews... a separatist sect that may or may not
> have been fully knowledgable about the goings on.
>
€ thanks to the arson of the Library of Alexandria in 391, there is
little to compare with.
>
> > There are a number of issues about what was written in Q4 documents.
> Yeah, so? The Bible says there's plenty of information about Jesus that
> is not contained here...
>
€ The Q4 documents record that Yeshua gave many lectures similar to some
of those recorded in the NT.
> > Examples: Yeshua/the Son of man's followers apparently did not
believe that he was God.
> Not according to Jesus' followers...
>
€ according to documents published after May, 325.
> > The Son of man spent time teaching groups of females, so they
> > apparently heard some things that the Disciples did not hear.
> A conclusion based on the fact that he taught women???
€ small groups of women only
>He also spent
> time speaking to children... we don't know exactly what was said there
> either... unless the Holy Spirit inspired one of the Gospel authors with
> the knowledge to be able to write it down.
>
>
> > His teaching about the ascension of the human soul is at odds with the
> > teaching of God's one true church -- especially after 1572 and 1895.
>
> Actually, it is not at odds at all... perhaps what you think A) JEsus
> taught and B) the Church teaches is the problem..
>
€ what does the RCC teach ?
dvs519
>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:54:40 GMT, "peter terry"
><namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Get yourself informed duke..These links tend to prove that your quite
>>mistaken mate..
>
>>http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm
>>http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
>
>sorry, mate, but why should I believe a site that calls itself
>"nobelief".
>
>But, I might just look them up, just for a laugh.
>
>>Rubbish..Hitler was raised in a Catholic environment that taught that the
>>Jews rejected and murdered Jesus. His anti-Semitism was based upon a 1700
>>year victimisation and persecution of the Jews by the Roman Church.
>
>Hitler could have been raised in a Catholic environment for a while,
>but that teaching falls out of the window when he changes his mind,
>which he clearly did. His inhumanity to humanity is directly opposed
>to the concept of Christiantiy.
>
>>Learn some real history duke!
>
>I think I have a real lock on it.
Never heard of the Crusades?
How about the Spanish Inquisition?
How about Father Serra's treatment of the Mexicans?
====================
Dave by the Beach
Redondo Beach
Southern California
Will Nordmeyer
>
In other words, NO, they don't match with other historical records...
Look to reasons 1 & 2... perhaps they aren't reliable accounts.
> > > Cave-Q4 had records of events that are known to have taken place
in
> the 1st Century
> > > prior to the Roman destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
> >
> > Scrolls from the Essene Jews... a separatist sect that may or may
not
> > have been fully knowledgable about the goings on.
> >
> ? thanks to the arson of the Library of Alexandria in 391, there is
> little to compare with.
> >
> > > There are a number of issues about what was written in Q4
documents.
>
> > Yeah, so? The Bible says there's plenty of information about Jesus
that
> > is not contained here...
> >
> ? The Q4 documents record that Yeshua gave many lectures similar to
some of those recorded in the NT.
>
So, they cover some of the same topics, and they have some that are
not...
We also have other writings that were supposedly from Jesus' followers
that have been rejected because while they have some truth in them...
they also have not always been true.
> > > Examples: Yeshua/the Son of man's followers apparently did not
> believe that he was God.
>
> > Not according to Jesus' followers...
> >
> ? according to documents published after May, 325.
>
Nope... the writings date back before then.
> > > The Son of man spent time teaching groups of females, so they
> > > apparently heard some things that the Disciples did not hear.
>
> > A conclusion based on the fact that he taught women???
>
> ? small groups of women only
>
So what? Your point is quite meaningless Rich.
> >He also spent
> > time speaking to children... we don't know exactly what was said
there
> > either... unless the Holy Spirit inspired one of the Gospel authors
with
> > the knowledge to be able to write it down.
> >
> >
> > > His teaching about the ascension of the human soul is at odds with
the
> > > teaching of God's one true church -- especially after 1572 and
1895.
> >
> > Actually, it is not at odds at all... perhaps what you think A)
JEsus
> > taught and B) the Church teaches is the problem..
> >
> ? what does the RCC teach ?
In what respect?
R. L. Measures
<wi...@nospam.daytondigital.net> wrote:
> "R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> news:2-1303021...@port163.dial.vcnet.com...
> > In article <3c8f8eb1$1...@news5.uncensored-news.com>, "Will Nordmeyer"
> > <wi...@nospam.daytondigital.net> wrote:
> >
€ WARNING -- THIS POST IS PROBABLY TOO LONG.
> > > "R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2-1303020...@port176.dial.vcnet.com...
> > > > In article <3c8f5193$1...@news5.uncensored-news.com>, "Will Nordmeyer"
> > > > <wi...@nospam.daytondigital.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ? If Roman Catholicism is the religion founded by the person
who called
> > > > > > himself "the Son of man". why then did the RCC fight tooth and
> Nail for
> > > > > > 35-years to prevent publication of the only, known
first-person accounts
> > > > > > of what this person taught during his several year mission
here? (80% of
> > > > > > the scrolls from Cave-4 at Qumran)
> > > > > >
> > > > > Gee. Rich... to first ENSURE their authenticity??? DUH.
> > > > >
> > > > ? There was little doubt about their authenticity.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The Isaiah-scroll found in Cave-Q1 in 1946 was scientifically
dated c. 300 BC.
> >
> > > FIRST reason to authenticate... to scientifically date documents...
> > >
> > > SECOND reason to authenticate - who's writings are they?
> > >
> > > THIRD reason to authenticate - do they match with other historical
> > > references?
> > >
> > ? They do not match the record's of God's one true church.
> >
> In other words, NO, they don't match with other historical records...
€ History tells us that the historical records of the several God's one
true churches are somewhat adjustable. Please name another first-person
account of the "Son of man's" sermons.
> Look to reasons 1 & 2... perhaps they aren't reliable accounts.
>
€ Why would the reporters for the *Qumran Life and Times* newspaper
fabricate accounts of lectures that were heard by hundreds of locals ?
f this had been the case, circulation would likely have plummeted and
advertising would have dropped precariously.
> > > > Cave-Q4 had records of events that are known to have taken place in
> > > >the 1st Century prior to the Roman destruction of the Temple in
Jerusalem.
> > >
> > > Scrolls from the Essene Jews... a separatist sect that may or may not
> > > have been fully knowledgable about the goings on.
> > >
> > ? thanks to the arson of the Library of Alexandria in 391, there is
> > little to compare with.
> > >
> > > > There are a number of issues about what was written in Q4 documents.
> >
> > > Yeah, so? The Bible says there's plenty of information about Jesus that
> > > is not contained here...
> > >
> > ? The Q4 documents record that Yeshua gave many lectures similar to
> some of those recorded in the NT.
> >
> So, they cover some of the same topics, and they have some that are
> not...
>
€ The NT contains some unique material that appears to spliced in. The
Peter/Rock/gates of Hell passage in Matt. is one example.
> We also have other writings that were supposedly from Jesus' followers
> that have been rejected because while they have some truth in them...
> they also have not always been true.
>
€ good point. The most recent find (1950, crypt S. of Alexandria,
Egypt), the gospel according to the Son of man's younger brother, James,
will probably never be added to the 4-gospels. One problem is that only
23 singed pages remain. (story in L. A. Times c. 1998) Another problem
is likely contradictions.
> > > > Examples: Yeshua/the Son of man's followers apparently did not
> > believe that he was God.
> >
> > > Not according to Jesus' followers...
> > >
> > ? according to documents published after May, 325.
> >
> Nope... the writings date back before then.
>
€ surely. The first writings about the Holy Trinity appeared c. 104.
The earliest, *Acts* and *Mark* were written c. 15-years after the "Son of
man" was executed.
> > > > The Son of man spent time teaching groups of females, so they
> > > > apparently heard some things that the Disciples did not hear.
> >
> > > A conclusion based on the fact that he taught women???
> >
> > ? small groups of women only
> >
> So what? Your point is quite meaningless Rich.
€ Holy men would apparently like others to believe that they alone have
the keys to $alvation. I can not believe that he did not discuss with
women some of what he learned in the 40-day seminar in the desert. In the
account of such in the Q4 docs, ascension of the human soul was what he
was discussing with women. To me, this makes sense because, on average,
miscarriages amount to a substantial portion of live births. Thus, women
need to know that miscarriage is not the end for a human soul. In other
words, God gives that soul other chances for a life on this planet. It is
my opinion that "Limbo" is somewhat unlikely. For priestcrafters, to
admit error is not easy. My guess is that this particular Q4 document was
part of the reason for the 35-year stonewall.
> > >He also spent
> > > time speaking to children... we don't know exactly what was said there
> > > either... unless the Holy Spirit inspired one of the Gospel authors with
> > > the knowledge to be able to write it down.
> > >
> > >
> > > > His teaching about the ascension of the human soul is at odds with the
> > > > teaching of God's one true church -- especially after 1572 and
> 1895.
> > >
> > > Actually, it is not at odds at all... perhaps what you think A) JEsus
> > > taught and B) the Church teaches is the problem..
> > >
> > ? what does the RCC teach ?
>
> In what respect?
>
€ ... ascension of the soul.
Postscriptum -- your Newsreader app appears to fragment lines. Is there a
margin set? If there is, please try setting it to about
10-charactors/line less than default.
thanks