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WHEN IN DOUBT, DO WHAT IS PERFECT
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Donna Kupp
May 26, 2012, 1:28:16 PM5/26/12
to
WHEN IN DOUBT, DO WHAT IS PERFECT
Faithful Christians never knowingly disobey The Ten Commandments of
God --but sometimes a circumstance occurs that presents a DOUBT of
whether a decision would disobey God.
As we pray, we must cast down the reasoning and traditions of men; and
adhere to the unaltered Commandment of God. Then, choose what is
perfect; what you know will be acceptable when you stand before
Christ on the day of judgment.
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
Faithful Christians never knowingly disobey The Ten Commandments of
God --but sometimes a circumstance occurs that presents a DOUBT of
whether a decision would disobey God.
As we pray, we must cast down the reasoning and traditions of men; and
adhere to the unaltered Commandment of God. Then, choose what is
perfect; what you know will be acceptable when you stand before
Christ on the day of judgment.
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
May 26, 2012, 2:25:50 PM5/26/12
to
Law:
A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage
or passages from which it is derived, Tracey R Rich
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Gospel:
Ro 10:9 -That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage
or passages from which it is derived, Tracey R Rich
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Gospel:
Ro 10:9 -That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
vince garcia
May 26, 2012, 2:45:03 PM5/26/12
to
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
--Apostle paul
John 1:1 DKT
Donna Kupp translation
>"In the beginning was Jesus
> and Jesus was with THE RULER,
> and Jesus was Ruler.
vs everyone else's translation of that verse...
_______________________________________________________________________
John 1:1 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 ESV
English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 KJV
King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 ASV
American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 BBE
Bible in Basic English
From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God
and was God.
John 1:1 CEB
Common English Bible
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was
God.
John 1:1 RHE
Douay-Rheims
In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:1 GNT
Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:1 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 LEB
Lexham English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
New American Standard
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NCV
New Century Version
In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:1 NIV
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NKJV
New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NLT
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was
God.
John 1:1 NRS
New Revised Standard
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NWT
New World Translation (Jehovah's Witnesses)
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was a god.
John 1:1 RSV
Revised Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 DT
The Darby Translation
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 MSG
The Message
The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word.
The Word was God,
John 1:1 WBT
The Webster Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 TNIV
Today's New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 WNT
Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 WEB
World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 WYC
Wycliffe
In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the
word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word
was at God, and God was the word.]
John 1:1 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God;
Well...this post shows an example of what Donna and Harold Kupp find it
necessary to do in order to promote THEIR version of Christ and the
Gospel: Rewrite one of the most important verses of scripture, and
pervert it into a ridiculous statement of BS ...for certainly every
Bible that dares render the greek (correctly) as "The word was God" MUST
be wrong.
Apparently, only Harold and Donna Kupp know how to translate scripture
correctly.
Perhaps they claim the anointing and authority of Joseph Smith as well?
As wrong as they are on their 'translation' here is as wrong as they are
on EVERY POINT OF DOCTRINE THEY HAVE.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his
subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is
in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not
preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received,
or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with
him.
--Apostle paul
Donna Kupp meets all 3 criteria
gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
--Apostle paul
John 1:1 DKT
Donna Kupp translation
>"In the beginning was Jesus
> and Jesus was with THE RULER,
> and Jesus was Ruler.
vs everyone else's translation of that verse...
_______________________________________________________________________
John 1:1 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 ESV
English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 KJV
King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 ASV
American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 BBE
Bible in Basic English
From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God
and was God.
John 1:1 CEB
Common English Bible
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was
God.
John 1:1 RHE
Douay-Rheims
In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:1 GNT
Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:1 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 LEB
Lexham English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
New American Standard
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NCV
New Century Version
In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:1 NIV
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NKJV
New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NLT
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was
God.
John 1:1 NRS
New Revised Standard
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 NWT
New World Translation (Jehovah's Witnesses)
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was a god.
John 1:1 RSV
Revised Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 DT
The Darby Translation
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 MSG
The Message
The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word.
The Word was God,
John 1:1 WBT
The Webster Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 TNIV
Today's New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 WNT
Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 WEB
World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
John 1:1 WYC
Wycliffe
In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the
word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word
was at God, and God was the word.]
John 1:1 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God;
Well...this post shows an example of what Donna and Harold Kupp find it
necessary to do in order to promote THEIR version of Christ and the
Gospel: Rewrite one of the most important verses of scripture, and
pervert it into a ridiculous statement of BS ...for certainly every
Bible that dares render the greek (correctly) as "The word was God" MUST
be wrong.
Apparently, only Harold and Donna Kupp know how to translate scripture
correctly.
Perhaps they claim the anointing and authority of Joseph Smith as well?
As wrong as they are on their 'translation' here is as wrong as they are
on EVERY POINT OF DOCTRINE THEY HAVE.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his
subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is
in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not
preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received,
or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with
him.
--Apostle paul
Donna Kupp meets all 3 criteria
vince garcia
May 26, 2012, 2:46:04 PM5/26/12
to
Donna Kupp wrote:
>
> ~ Counterfeit Christianity and Human Secularism allow each person to
> have their personal truth.
> was not taught by church leaders for three hundred years after the
> death of Christ.
--Donna Kupp
> There is no record of the co-equal, co-eternal, three-in-one God
> being taught by a single one of the early church fathers. It
> was not a part of Christian teaching until it was formulated by the
> Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381.A.D.
--Donna Kupp
NO RECORD "BY A __SINGLE ONE__ OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS"???
We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that
he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and
the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness,
saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the
unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are
ignorant of the mystery which lies therein.
CHURCH FATHER Justin Martyr around 160 AD
For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to
the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their
disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in
the Holy Spirit
CHURCH FATHER Irenaeus, before 200 AD
And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for
the unity is distributed in a TRINITY. Placed in order, the three are
the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition,
but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of
one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one
God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
CHURCH FATHER Tertullian "Against Praxeas" early 200s AD
The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy and the will of the
Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way
than this, gave this charge to the disciples after he rose from the
dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matt 28:19) And by this
he showed that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying
God perfectly. For it is through THE TRINITY that the Father is
glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did and the Spirit manifested.
CHURCH FATHER Hippolytus of Rome 220 AD
There is one God.... There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity
and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is
nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything
super-induced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at
some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever
wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation
and without change, the same Trinity abides ever.
CHURCH FATHER Gregory Thaumaturgus 265 AD
For Scripture as much announces Christ AS ALSO GOD, as it announces God
himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as
moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it
does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of
man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been
accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he
is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For
as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who
is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed
to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus
Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called
also God and the Son of God"
Novatian, Treatise on the Trinity 11 235 AD
And now the capstone to Kupp's historial and TEXTUAL illiteracy:
The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again of the Father and
Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three are one'.
Cyprian --Treatise 1 on the unity of the Catholic Church, chapter 6,
early 3rd century, PROVING THE LEGITIMACY OF THE COMMA JOHANNEUM KUPP
(and other historical illiterates) SAY IS A FRAUD.
The purpose of this post is to show the actual truth about how ignorant
and unlearned Donna Kupp actually is, despite trying to pretend she is
some sort of legitimate historian on Chritianity.
Anyone who make THIS sort of claim...
> There is no record of the co-equal, co-eternal, three-in-one God
> being taught by a single one of the early church fathers. It
> was not a part of Christian teaching until it was formulated by the
> Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381.A.D.
...Has no business even giving an opinion on Christian history, let
alone teaching the Bible.
As wrong as she is about THIS, is as wrong as she is on every point of
theology she holds
As is always the case with heretics and cultists, the god of these
people must rely on his representatives speaking lie after lie in an
attemopt to deceive the sheep into following the false teacher and false
god behind the teacher.
>
> ~ Counterfeit Christianity and Human Secularism allow each person to
> have their personal truth.
>
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
--Apostle paul
> Jesus did not teach the Trinity, the apostles did not teach it, and it
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
--Apostle paul
> was not taught by church leaders for three hundred years after the
> death of Christ.
--Donna Kupp
> There is no record of the co-equal, co-eternal, three-in-one God
> being taught by a single one of the early church fathers. It
> was not a part of Christian teaching until it was formulated by the
> Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381.A.D.
--Donna Kupp
NO RECORD "BY A __SINGLE ONE__ OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS"???
We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that
he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and
the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness,
saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the
unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are
ignorant of the mystery which lies therein.
CHURCH FATHER Justin Martyr around 160 AD
For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to
the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their
disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in
the Holy Spirit
CHURCH FATHER Irenaeus, before 200 AD
And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for
the unity is distributed in a TRINITY. Placed in order, the three are
the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition,
but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of
one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one
God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
CHURCH FATHER Tertullian "Against Praxeas" early 200s AD
The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy and the will of the
Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way
than this, gave this charge to the disciples after he rose from the
dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matt 28:19) And by this
he showed that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying
God perfectly. For it is through THE TRINITY that the Father is
glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did and the Spirit manifested.
CHURCH FATHER Hippolytus of Rome 220 AD
There is one God.... There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity
and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is
nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything
super-induced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at
some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever
wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation
and without change, the same Trinity abides ever.
CHURCH FATHER Gregory Thaumaturgus 265 AD
For Scripture as much announces Christ AS ALSO GOD, as it announces God
himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as
moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it
does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of
man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been
accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he
is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For
as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who
is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed
to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus
Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called
also God and the Son of God"
Novatian, Treatise on the Trinity 11 235 AD
And now the capstone to Kupp's historial and TEXTUAL illiteracy:
The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again of the Father and
Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three are one'.
Cyprian --Treatise 1 on the unity of the Catholic Church, chapter 6,
early 3rd century, PROVING THE LEGITIMACY OF THE COMMA JOHANNEUM KUPP
(and other historical illiterates) SAY IS A FRAUD.
The purpose of this post is to show the actual truth about how ignorant
and unlearned Donna Kupp actually is, despite trying to pretend she is
some sort of legitimate historian on Chritianity.
Anyone who make THIS sort of claim...
> There is no record of the co-equal, co-eternal, three-in-one God
> being taught by a single one of the early church fathers. It
> was not a part of Christian teaching until it was formulated by the
> Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381.A.D.
...Has no business even giving an opinion on Christian history, let
alone teaching the Bible.
As wrong as she is about THIS, is as wrong as she is on every point of
theology she holds
As is always the case with heretics and cultists, the god of these
people must rely on his representatives speaking lie after lie in an
attemopt to deceive the sheep into following the false teacher and false
god behind the teacher.
vince garcia
May 26, 2012, 2:52:05 PM5/26/12
to
A false gospel is often created by some who do not understand the
incident of the Rich Young Ruler of Matthew 19.
First, as is typical with those who do not understand the REAL Gospel,
their deception starts with a misunderstanding of Scripture--in this
case, the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:16-17.
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing
shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments.
The error starts here with many people believing that Jesus was making a
soteriological statement for us on how to obtain eternal life, that
being to "keep the commandments."
Well, that's exactly what the Pharisees taught too. And if that is the
real way to eternal life, we don't need Jesus--all we need is Moses!
In fact, I've had Jews throw this verse in my face and declare that
Jesus Himself says that if they keep Moses' Law they'll go to heaven, so
Paul is wrong when he disagrees and says Jews need a savior.
Right there, that should show there is a problem with accepting these
verses at face value.
But did Jesus really mean what both Jews and some deceived Christians
think He meant? Let's read on.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou
shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear
false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.
Well, there you go: If Jesus means what He says here, we need keep only
six commandments to go to heaven, certainly not 10, let alone 613! (And
note how Jesus left out the Sabbath, by the way!)
In fact, just about everyone would agree we should do those things:
Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, and even some atheists would say those six
things are correct to do, and a "good person" would do them.
Are all those groups, who would promote and do the very things Jesus
said to do here, going to heaven?
No.
So what good is it to do those six things?
None--if you believe that you will earn eternal life by doing them.
Yet here is where error becomes hypocrisy. Not one of the people who
base their actual theology on this passage accepts what it says!
Not one!
They'll believe verse 17 readily enough, but then reject verses 18 and
19!
When we get to those verses, suddenly Jesus doesn't mean what He says at
all, but He "really means"…
Keep the 10 Commandments.
Keep the written Torah.
Keep the written Torah and the oral Law that goes with it.
Keep the ordinances of the church.
Keep a mixture of commandments and church ordinances.
There you have it: Verse 17 is true just as written, but then verses 18
and 19 mean everything except what they actually say!
Even though Jesus was specifically asked which commandments a man needed
to keep to go to heaven, and even though He (supposedly) answered and
listed them, the Child of the Flesh has the gall to overrule and reject
His answer, then take it upon himself to add in extra commandments to
overcome Jesus' misleading and deceptive statement, because if you
believe what He actually said, obviously you'll go to hell for not
keeping enough commandments!
That also should tell you that there is a problem with the theology many
apply to this verse.
Yet most Christian cults, knowing they need not keep the full Law, yet
believing they must keep some kind of Law, simply conclude that Jesus
needs them to contradict His actual answer and speak for Him, asserting
He really meant, "Keep the 10 Commandments."
This is because they want to be justified by their own efforts and
believe they can keep 10, but not 613.
Sounds good, but there is a big problem: Jesus quoted from the whole of
the Law, and not simply the 10 Commandments, nor did He say to keep the
10 Commandments. He said to keep six commandments.
Five of these commandments are indeed found in the 10, but the last, and
most important of them, is not!
So are we under the 11 Commandments then?
The cultist now squirms, and if confronted with even more commandments
in the Law he knows cannot be ignored (like those against
homosexuality), he simply claims they must fall under the 10, so more
than 10 commandments still equal only 10 commandments!
His bad math also equals bad theology. Yet in his error and ignorance,
the cultist has actually stumbled onto what the 10 Commandments actually
were: Capstones to the entire 613 commandments!
Sabbath commands fell under the 4th commandment; stoning a rebellious
son fell under the 6th commandment, returning a neighbor's wandering
mule fell under the 10th commandment, and so on.
You cannot separate the 10 from the 613, though Christianity often does,
and for the same reasons:
1. A presumption that if you aren't "under" some sort of law, then you
must be saying it is all right to sin.
2. A presumption that since we don't need to--and can't--keep 613
commandments, we can keep 10.
That might sound good, but we are still confronted with the fact that
either Jesus meant what He said, or He didn't.
The fact is, He didn't mean what He appears to say--as the cultist, deep
down, realizes--which is why he has to "flush out" Christ's words with
his own additions to them.
So if Jesus did not mean to teach the way we go to heaven is by keeping
the commandments He listed, what did He really mean?
Let's read on.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my
youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou
hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and
come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for
he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a
rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the
eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying,
Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible.
The very man Jesus told this to, who affirmed he had kept "all" these
commandments from his youth, went away with his head hung low because he
wasn't willing to sell all he had and give it to the poor.
And do you notice that neither do the proponents of this verse?
Except for perhaps some priests, monks and nuns, you would find it near
impossible to meet an Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Catholic, Adventist,
Messianic, LDS, JW, Armstrongite, or what have you, who accepts verse
17, denies and adds his own list of extra commandments to verses 18 and
19, who then goes on to follow verse 21!
You certainly won't find many Protestant, "Bible-believing" pastors or
lay people who do!
At least, I've never met any. I did once meet a Matthew 19:17 man who
triple-tithed, and thought that qualified.
I was impressed at his 30% obedience.
If he ever makes it to 100%, he'll actually have arrived.
Incredibly, these poor, deceived people who are willing to believe the
one verse to be true fail at the same point as the man who left with his
head hung low: They won't sell all they have to go follow Christ either!
They'll invent reasons why they don't have to do that but somehow still
be saved, unlike the man in this passage.
For one, they'll say Christ was only speaking to that particular man,
and since he was rich, that command doesn't apply to them.
But yes it does. You can be Bill Gates or Joe Smith, living homeless
under a bridge, and be every bit as covetous as the Rich Young Ruler
was!
It's not a question of how much you have--it's a question of how much
what you have has you!
A millionaire might trust in his riches, and want to hold onto every
dollar he has as his security--and a homeless man might have exactly the
same attitude with a five-dollar bill and a shopping cart.
The principle of Jesus' words and teachings to that man thus apply to
every one of us, and how much money we have or don't have plays no part
in those words at all! We are all under command not to be covetous and
trust in our financial resources as our source, nor let those resources
be in the way of serving God.
So why would that man leave, walking into damnation because of his
covetousness, while the cultist makes his way into heaven by keeping the
same commandments the Rich Young Ruler was otherwise keeping?
What makes the Adventist, Messianic, or Fundamentalist any better than
that man?
They aren't. They're in exactly the same boat, the only difference being
that he walked away in the grief of conviction, while they walk away
with their noses in the air thinking they can ignore what Jesus said in
verse 21, and just live by their own private doctrine on verse 17!
That man kept the same commandments the cultist is relying on to get him
into heaven, and had kept them from his youth! In fact, he kept more
commandments than the cultist ever thought of keeping.
But the truth is, he was actually knee deep in idolatry, violating the
first and most important commandment by having his possessions before
God in his heart--even though he had kept every commandment Jesus
listed.
The proof is that he wasn't willing to sell all he had to follow Christ.
Neither is the cultist, the 10 Commandments-touter, or the Child of the
Flesh.
Neither are most of us! That's why we need to reject the covenant of Law
verse 17 represents--not take it as our salvation theology--and instead
cleave to the grace offered in verse 26 as the truly redeemed do.
So my message to you is that if you make the catastrophic error of
thinking Matthew 19:17 is the foundation for entering into eternal life,
you better do as Christ commanded in verse 21 and sell all you have as
well!
If not, you go away damned as an idolater, just as the young man did!
Some of you have never realized that. Now you do, and are accountable
for it. You must either remain in a deceived state of being justified by
keeping the commandments--even though you will add to Christ's words in
verses 18 and 19, then refuse to follow Christ's command in verse 21--or
you can leave the Law and the unprofitable strivings over it behind, and
let faith alone take you into the Promised Land.
"Do I get to keep my possessions then?"
Do you want a greater or lesser reward?
Keep your possessions, how ever humble or great they may be, and be a
good steward of them, using them as God directs to help others--some
here, some there--and you will be blessed in heaven (1 Tim. 6:17-18).
Or, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and come follow where Christ
directs, and you will have a great reward in heaven.
But if you choose to live under Matthew 19:17, then you must also live
under Matthew 19:21!
Thus, Jesus was never intending to teach that this man--or anyone
else--would make heaven by obeying some basic moral precepts. He was
simply repeating what that man--and the Jews--actually believed, but was
showing the man wasn't as sinless as he thought, nor was he as worthy of
eternal life as his religion held.
This is shown in another incident related in Luke 10:
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying,
Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all
thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou
shalt live.
Now we're down to two commandments--neither of which is even in the 10
Commandments!
So in the strictest sense, while Jesus didn't mean what many think He
did in Matthew 19, if one could keep both these core commandments in
Luke 10 to God's standard--as the man who answered Jesus thought he was
doing--he would gain eternal life.
But that Jesus was ultimately showing that no one will gain heaven by
keeping even two commandments is shown in His revelation of what God's
actual standard of righteousness is:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her
hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
--Matt. 5:27-28.
That's how high the standard of success is, and how low the threshold
for failure is.
Even a thought, never carried further, makes one every bit as guilty and
subject to judgment as the man who carries out the thought with his
body.
This is why none of us ever can, or will, enter into eternal life by
"keeping the commandments." We will always fall short and always require
atonement for our sins and an imputed righteousness to override our own
intrinsic unrighteousness!
Beyond that, no New Testament writer after Jesus ever literally makes a
statement like, "Keep the commandments to enter into eternal life!" A
verse in Revelation nearly says that, but the pedigree of that verse is
bad, and modern Bibles use a more reliable reading that does not carry
the same questionable implications to soteriology. So if you look at the
panoply of the New Testament beyond Jesus' words in these passages, you
will never find His words, "keep the commandments." repeated by Peter,
John, James, Jude, or Paul in a direct context of gaining eternal life
BY keeping them.
At best, you can argue they warn against LOSING salbvatrion by
DISobeying key comamndments God has given.
Copyright by Vince Garcia. All rights reserved
incident of the Rich Young Ruler of Matthew 19.
First, as is typical with those who do not understand the REAL Gospel,
their deception starts with a misunderstanding of Scripture--in this
case, the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:16-17.
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing
shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments.
The error starts here with many people believing that Jesus was making a
soteriological statement for us on how to obtain eternal life, that
being to "keep the commandments."
Well, that's exactly what the Pharisees taught too. And if that is the
real way to eternal life, we don't need Jesus--all we need is Moses!
In fact, I've had Jews throw this verse in my face and declare that
Jesus Himself says that if they keep Moses' Law they'll go to heaven, so
Paul is wrong when he disagrees and says Jews need a savior.
Right there, that should show there is a problem with accepting these
verses at face value.
But did Jesus really mean what both Jews and some deceived Christians
think He meant? Let's read on.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou
shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear
false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.
Well, there you go: If Jesus means what He says here, we need keep only
six commandments to go to heaven, certainly not 10, let alone 613! (And
note how Jesus left out the Sabbath, by the way!)
In fact, just about everyone would agree we should do those things:
Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, and even some atheists would say those six
things are correct to do, and a "good person" would do them.
Are all those groups, who would promote and do the very things Jesus
said to do here, going to heaven?
No.
So what good is it to do those six things?
None--if you believe that you will earn eternal life by doing them.
Yet here is where error becomes hypocrisy. Not one of the people who
base their actual theology on this passage accepts what it says!
Not one!
They'll believe verse 17 readily enough, but then reject verses 18 and
19!
When we get to those verses, suddenly Jesus doesn't mean what He says at
all, but He "really means"…
Keep the 10 Commandments.
Keep the written Torah.
Keep the written Torah and the oral Law that goes with it.
Keep the ordinances of the church.
Keep a mixture of commandments and church ordinances.
There you have it: Verse 17 is true just as written, but then verses 18
and 19 mean everything except what they actually say!
Even though Jesus was specifically asked which commandments a man needed
to keep to go to heaven, and even though He (supposedly) answered and
listed them, the Child of the Flesh has the gall to overrule and reject
His answer, then take it upon himself to add in extra commandments to
overcome Jesus' misleading and deceptive statement, because if you
believe what He actually said, obviously you'll go to hell for not
keeping enough commandments!
That also should tell you that there is a problem with the theology many
apply to this verse.
Yet most Christian cults, knowing they need not keep the full Law, yet
believing they must keep some kind of Law, simply conclude that Jesus
needs them to contradict His actual answer and speak for Him, asserting
He really meant, "Keep the 10 Commandments."
This is because they want to be justified by their own efforts and
believe they can keep 10, but not 613.
Sounds good, but there is a big problem: Jesus quoted from the whole of
the Law, and not simply the 10 Commandments, nor did He say to keep the
10 Commandments. He said to keep six commandments.
Five of these commandments are indeed found in the 10, but the last, and
most important of them, is not!
So are we under the 11 Commandments then?
The cultist now squirms, and if confronted with even more commandments
in the Law he knows cannot be ignored (like those against
homosexuality), he simply claims they must fall under the 10, so more
than 10 commandments still equal only 10 commandments!
His bad math also equals bad theology. Yet in his error and ignorance,
the cultist has actually stumbled onto what the 10 Commandments actually
were: Capstones to the entire 613 commandments!
Sabbath commands fell under the 4th commandment; stoning a rebellious
son fell under the 6th commandment, returning a neighbor's wandering
mule fell under the 10th commandment, and so on.
You cannot separate the 10 from the 613, though Christianity often does,
and for the same reasons:
1. A presumption that if you aren't "under" some sort of law, then you
must be saying it is all right to sin.
2. A presumption that since we don't need to--and can't--keep 613
commandments, we can keep 10.
That might sound good, but we are still confronted with the fact that
either Jesus meant what He said, or He didn't.
The fact is, He didn't mean what He appears to say--as the cultist, deep
down, realizes--which is why he has to "flush out" Christ's words with
his own additions to them.
So if Jesus did not mean to teach the way we go to heaven is by keeping
the commandments He listed, what did He really mean?
Let's read on.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my
youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou
hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and
come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for
he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a
rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the
eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying,
Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible.
The very man Jesus told this to, who affirmed he had kept "all" these
commandments from his youth, went away with his head hung low because he
wasn't willing to sell all he had and give it to the poor.
And do you notice that neither do the proponents of this verse?
Except for perhaps some priests, monks and nuns, you would find it near
impossible to meet an Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Catholic, Adventist,
Messianic, LDS, JW, Armstrongite, or what have you, who accepts verse
17, denies and adds his own list of extra commandments to verses 18 and
19, who then goes on to follow verse 21!
You certainly won't find many Protestant, "Bible-believing" pastors or
lay people who do!
At least, I've never met any. I did once meet a Matthew 19:17 man who
triple-tithed, and thought that qualified.
I was impressed at his 30% obedience.
If he ever makes it to 100%, he'll actually have arrived.
Incredibly, these poor, deceived people who are willing to believe the
one verse to be true fail at the same point as the man who left with his
head hung low: They won't sell all they have to go follow Christ either!
They'll invent reasons why they don't have to do that but somehow still
be saved, unlike the man in this passage.
For one, they'll say Christ was only speaking to that particular man,
and since he was rich, that command doesn't apply to them.
But yes it does. You can be Bill Gates or Joe Smith, living homeless
under a bridge, and be every bit as covetous as the Rich Young Ruler
was!
It's not a question of how much you have--it's a question of how much
what you have has you!
A millionaire might trust in his riches, and want to hold onto every
dollar he has as his security--and a homeless man might have exactly the
same attitude with a five-dollar bill and a shopping cart.
The principle of Jesus' words and teachings to that man thus apply to
every one of us, and how much money we have or don't have plays no part
in those words at all! We are all under command not to be covetous and
trust in our financial resources as our source, nor let those resources
be in the way of serving God.
So why would that man leave, walking into damnation because of his
covetousness, while the cultist makes his way into heaven by keeping the
same commandments the Rich Young Ruler was otherwise keeping?
What makes the Adventist, Messianic, or Fundamentalist any better than
that man?
They aren't. They're in exactly the same boat, the only difference being
that he walked away in the grief of conviction, while they walk away
with their noses in the air thinking they can ignore what Jesus said in
verse 21, and just live by their own private doctrine on verse 17!
That man kept the same commandments the cultist is relying on to get him
into heaven, and had kept them from his youth! In fact, he kept more
commandments than the cultist ever thought of keeping.
But the truth is, he was actually knee deep in idolatry, violating the
first and most important commandment by having his possessions before
God in his heart--even though he had kept every commandment Jesus
listed.
The proof is that he wasn't willing to sell all he had to follow Christ.
Neither is the cultist, the 10 Commandments-touter, or the Child of the
Flesh.
Neither are most of us! That's why we need to reject the covenant of Law
verse 17 represents--not take it as our salvation theology--and instead
cleave to the grace offered in verse 26 as the truly redeemed do.
So my message to you is that if you make the catastrophic error of
thinking Matthew 19:17 is the foundation for entering into eternal life,
you better do as Christ commanded in verse 21 and sell all you have as
well!
If not, you go away damned as an idolater, just as the young man did!
Some of you have never realized that. Now you do, and are accountable
for it. You must either remain in a deceived state of being justified by
keeping the commandments--even though you will add to Christ's words in
verses 18 and 19, then refuse to follow Christ's command in verse 21--or
you can leave the Law and the unprofitable strivings over it behind, and
let faith alone take you into the Promised Land.
"Do I get to keep my possessions then?"
Do you want a greater or lesser reward?
Keep your possessions, how ever humble or great they may be, and be a
good steward of them, using them as God directs to help others--some
here, some there--and you will be blessed in heaven (1 Tim. 6:17-18).
Or, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and come follow where Christ
directs, and you will have a great reward in heaven.
But if you choose to live under Matthew 19:17, then you must also live
under Matthew 19:21!
Thus, Jesus was never intending to teach that this man--or anyone
else--would make heaven by obeying some basic moral precepts. He was
simply repeating what that man--and the Jews--actually believed, but was
showing the man wasn't as sinless as he thought, nor was he as worthy of
eternal life as his religion held.
This is shown in another incident related in Luke 10:
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying,
Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all
thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou
shalt live.
Now we're down to two commandments--neither of which is even in the 10
Commandments!
So in the strictest sense, while Jesus didn't mean what many think He
did in Matthew 19, if one could keep both these core commandments in
Luke 10 to God's standard--as the man who answered Jesus thought he was
doing--he would gain eternal life.
But that Jesus was ultimately showing that no one will gain heaven by
keeping even two commandments is shown in His revelation of what God's
actual standard of righteousness is:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her
hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
--Matt. 5:27-28.
That's how high the standard of success is, and how low the threshold
for failure is.
Even a thought, never carried further, makes one every bit as guilty and
subject to judgment as the man who carries out the thought with his
body.
This is why none of us ever can, or will, enter into eternal life by
"keeping the commandments." We will always fall short and always require
atonement for our sins and an imputed righteousness to override our own
intrinsic unrighteousness!
Beyond that, no New Testament writer after Jesus ever literally makes a
statement like, "Keep the commandments to enter into eternal life!" A
verse in Revelation nearly says that, but the pedigree of that verse is
bad, and modern Bibles use a more reliable reading that does not carry
the same questionable implications to soteriology. So if you look at the
panoply of the New Testament beyond Jesus' words in these passages, you
will never find His words, "keep the commandments." repeated by Peter,
John, James, Jude, or Paul in a direct context of gaining eternal life
BY keeping them.
At best, you can argue they warn against LOSING salbvatrion by
DISobeying key comamndments God has given.
Copyright by Vince Garcia. All rights reserved
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
May 29, 2012, 2:57:57 AM5/29/12
to
On 5/26/2012 1:28 PM, Donna Kupp wrote:
> WHEN IN DOUBT, DO WHAT IS PERFECT
>
> Faithful Christians never knowingly disobey The Ten Commandments of
> God --but sometimes a circumstance occurs that presents a DOUBT of
> whether a decision would disobey God.
>
> As we pray, we must cast down the reasoning and traditions of men; and
> adhere to the unaltered Commandment of God. Then, choose what is
> perfect; what you know will be acceptable when you stand before
> Christ on the day of judgment.
LOL
> WHEN IN DOUBT, DO WHAT IS PERFECT
>
> Faithful Christians never knowingly disobey The Ten Commandments of
> God --but sometimes a circumstance occurs that presents a DOUBT of
> whether a decision would disobey God.
>
> As we pray, we must cast down the reasoning and traditions of men; and
> adhere to the unaltered Commandment of God. Then, choose what is
> perfect; what you know will be acceptable when you stand before
> Christ on the day of judgment.
Too bad that's not what Jesus taught, i.e. keep the rules unless it's
time to break the rules, and break the rules unless it's time to keep
the rules.
But try telling that to childish legalists such as yourself.
Ike
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