Funeral of Reagan in Episcopal Cathedral
john j
the Epscopal church was in America.
The service is usualy a high Episcopalian service.
President Reagan was a presbyterian.
Dan Harbor
The Lord will surely welcome home this great dude, in either/any case.
Dan Harbor
Peter Ould
>
> The Lord will surely welcome home this great dude, in either/any case.
>
Why? Not doubting you, but want to know why you think the Lord will welcome
him?
Peter O
Wayne
23853-40C...@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net, "john j"
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote:
Not High Church, though its Choir was seeded by St. Paul's K Street one of
the High Five.
>
Robert Coates
prayer for all people" and is frequently used for services of national
interest regardless of the affiliation of the participants. Consequently,
services there are frequently officiated by clergy of other religions or
Christian denominations. St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Bishop
of Washington. Mr Reagan's funeral will be officiated by Sen. John Danforth
who is an ordained Episcopal priest and a truly fine gentleman of many
accomplishments. (He is also Ambassador-designate to the United Nations.)
Actually, President Reagan's first church was the Disciples of Christ.
Eureka College in Illinois is a Disciples school. He and Mrs Reagan joined
a Presbyterian Church in California because they liked the pastor, and there
are very few DofC churches on the west coast. I believe they also
occasionally attended the National Presbyterian Church in Washington when he
was president.
The Episcopal Church is very important in America. About a third of our
presidents were Episcopalian. Episcopalians are also represented in
disproportionately high numbers in Congress and on the Supreme Court. Bush
was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist. Bush Sr. is still
Episcopalian. St John's Church on Lafayette Square is traditionally the
"President's Church" because it is only a block from the White House, and
many presidents, Episcopalian and otherwise, have attended services there.
"john j" <JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23853-40C...@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...
Brian J Dawson
I graduated from a Prebyterian college and as I recall Eureka College was
then considered to be the same as it was listed as a sister college in our
catalog. My college has since left the fold. I think Eureka folded!
Brian J Dawson
"Robert Coates" <attituder...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ELWdnUDe3PB...@comcast.com...
john j
National " cathedral is protestant. That other protestant churches use
it is not unusual or the fact that many protestants change churches
often.
Fred Goodwin, CMA
What a wonderful service. I used to live in the DC-area (Montgomery
Village, MD, a bedroom community just outside of Gaithersburg). I really
miss it.
God Bless Ronald Reagan and the United States of America.
Fred Goodwin
Diocese of West Texas
happenrapper
actually, St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of
Washington (at present a Cardinal) and the Bishop of the Diocese of
Washington...it is Roman Catholic, not protestant.
Anyway, it is not important--at least not to me. I am hopeful that
the Church of Rome and the Anglican Communion will one day be one...a
few heavy obstacles to jump, but it could happen if and when Rome
tones it down a bit and enters the 21st century.
of Washington.On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:54:00 -0500, "Robert Coates"
john j
Saint Mathews Cathedral is Roman Catholic and the seat of the
Archdiocese of Washington!
MAK
"happenrapper" <bra...@ragingbulll.com> wrote in message
news:40c9ff23...@news.erols.com...
> "St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Bishop"
>
> actually, St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of
> Washington (at present a Cardinal) and the Bishop of the Diocese of
> Washington...it is Roman Catholic, not protestant.
>
> Anyway, it is not important--at least not to me. I am hopeful that
> the Church of Rome and the Anglican Communion will one day be
one...a
> few heavy obstacles to jump, but it could happen if and when Rome
> tones it down a bit and enters the 21st century.
Perhaps it could happen if the Anglican Communion, particularly it's
Episcopal province, stopped repudiating scripture and began practicing
Christian principles. Rome is not the problem.
MAK
>
> actually, St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of
> Washington (at present a Cardinal) and the Bishop of the Diocese of
> Washington...it is Roman Catholic, not protestant.
>
> Anyway, it is not important--at least not to me. I am hopeful that
> the Church of Rome and the Anglican Communion will one day be
one...a
> few heavy obstacles to jump, but it could happen if and when Rome
> tones it down a bit and enters the 21st century.
Perhaps it could happen if the Anglican Communion, particularly it's
MAK
>
> actually, St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of
> Washington (at present a Cardinal) and the Bishop of the Diocese of
> Washington...it is Roman Catholic, not protestant.
>
> Anyway, it is not important--at least not to me. I am hopeful that
> the Church of Rome and the Anglican Communion will one day be
one...a
> few heavy obstacles to jump, but it could happen if and when Rome
> tones it down a bit and enters the 21st century.
Perhaps it could happen if the Anglican Communion, particularly it's
MAK
MAK
Moses
Everyone knows it's just his body there. His soul is already in Hell.
The devil got his mind years ago, and now has his soul.
You'll probably join him in time.
Robert Coates
>
> actually, St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of
> Washington (at present a Cardinal) and the Bishop of the Diocese of
> Washington...it is Roman Catholic, not protestant.
Obviously I got my cathedrals confused. Actually the Bishop of Washington
does sit at the National Cathedral. In ordinary time, it serves as an
Episcopal cathedral church, but is open to people of all faiths for special
occasions such as state funerals.
Robert Coates
"Brian J Dawson" <nos...@spiderfree.com> wrote in message
news:oWcyc.8689$mz....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
> Robert,
>
> I graduated from a Prebyterian college and as I recall Eureka College was
> then considered to be the same as it was listed as a sister college in our
> catalog. My college has since left the fold. I think Eureka folded!
> Brian J Dawson
From the Student Handbook:
http://www.eureka.edu/handbook0/section_3_policies_for_%20student_activities/Faith.asp
Eureka College is proud of its relation to the Christian Church (Disciples
of Christ). The College and the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) are
related by a mutual covenant which is dedicated to the growth and
development of students. This relationship creates a distinct role for
Eureka College.
They are very much still in business.
HP Opus
> America. About a third of our presidents
> were Episcopalian. Episcopalians are also
> represented in disproportionately high
> numbers in Congress and on the Supreme Court.
> Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now
> Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: [You] no-good fucking sonovabitch. (1)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: We're gonna take this thing [the evangelicals] over...
(2)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Pussy [is what my father and I talk about]. (3)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Go to hell... (4)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I don't necessarily believe every single word [in the
Bible] is literally true. ...The verdict is still out on how God
created the earth. (5)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I feel like God wants me to run for President. I
can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me.
Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my
family, but God wants me to do it." (6)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: There's Adam Clymer -- major league asshole -- from
the New York Times... (7)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: People communicate with God and reach God in different
ways. ...And I am mindful of what Billy Graham one time told me, for
me not to try to figure out...who gets to go to heaven. ...And when I
told you I'm a sinner -- you need to take that in the figurative
sense. (8)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I joined Skull and Bones, a secret society, so secret
I can't say anything more. (9)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: ...four Gentile governors - one Methodist, two
Catholics, and a Mormon, and several Jewish-American friends...prayed
together, on bended knee...around an altar kneeling, one common Lord.
Faith changes lives. I know, because faith has changed mine. (10)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: ["Did I have any qualms, say, about joining an elite
secret club like Skull and Bones at Yale University?"] No qualms at
all. I was honored. ...["How do I demystify it a bit for those who
might think it's a cross between a Masonic Lodge and the Trilateral
Commission?"] Without revealing all the great secrets? ...Someone a
year ahead of me tapped me. There was an entry celebration. I can't
remember whether my dad showed up or not. (11)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Throughout the world, people of all religions
recognize Jesus Christ as an example of love, compassion, sacrifice
and service. Reaching out to the poor, the suffering and the
marginalized, he provided moral leadership that continues to inspire
countless men, women and children today. (12)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: All Presidents of the United States have come to the
National Prayer Breakfast, regardless of their religious views. No
matter what our background, in prayer we share something universal --
a desire to speak and listen to our Maker, and to know His plan for
our lives. ...Men and women can be good without faith, but faith is a
force of goodness. Men and women can be compassionate without faith,
but faith often inspires compassion. Human beings can love without
faith, but faith is a great teacher of love. ...Faith is also
important to the civility of our country. It teaches us not merely to
tolerate one another, but to respect one another -- to show a regard
for different views and the courtesy to listen. This is essential to
democracy. It is also the proper way to treat human beings created
in the divine image. We'll have our disagreements. Civility does not
require us to abandon deeply-held beliefs. Civility does not demand
casual creeds and colorless convictions. Americans have always
believed that civility and firm resolve could live easily with one
another. But civility does mean that our public debate ought to be
free from bitterness and anger, rancor and ill-will. We have an
obligation to make our case, not to demonize our opponents. As the
Book of James reminds us, fresh water and salt water cannot flow from
the same spring. (13)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: It's...a high honor for me to be on the podium with so
many outstanding leaders of faith. I've had the honor of meeting many
of the cardinals who are here, and many of the bishops and archbishops
from around the country. ...The Catholic Church is fortunate to have
such strong, capable, decent leadership. And America is fortunate to
have such strong leaders in our midst. ...All of you are part of the
humanizing mission which is part of the "great commission" and the
Pope John Paul II Cultural Center, which we will dedicate tomorrow,
will bring this message to generations of Americans in this capital of
our nation. The best way to honor Pope John Paul II, truly one of the
great men, is to take his teaching seriously; is to listen to his
words and put his words and teachings into action here in America.
This is a challenge we must accept. (14)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Cardinal Maida, ...Cardinal Szocha, ...and, Cardinal
McCarrick, ...I'm proud to live in your archdiocese. ...When Cardinal
Wojtyla spoke here at Catholic University in 1976, few imagined the
course his life would take, or the history his life would shape.
...Now he's kissed the ground of 123 countries and leads a flock of 1
billion into the Third Millennium. We remember the Pope's visit to
Israel and his mission of reconciliation and mutual respect between
Christians and Jews. He is the first modern Pope to enter a synagogue
or visit an Islamic country. ...His is not the power of armies or
technology or wealth. It is the unexpected power of a baby in a
stable, of a man on a cross, of a simple fisherman who carried a
message of hope to Rome. ...We thank God for this rare man, a servant
of God and a hero of history. And I thank all of you for building this
center of conscience and reflection in our Nation's Capital. (15)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take
a while... [But] we will rid the world of the evil-doers. (16)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I have told the nation more than once that...the
teachings of Islam are the teachings of peace and good. ...And I also
appreciate the prayers to the universal God. (17)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I appreciate your [the Russians'] understanding there
is a universal and gracious God. (18)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: ...universal God...is important -- obviously,
important part of my life, but very important part of the life of our
country. (19)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: As more and more people go to their churches and
synagogues and mosques and hear that universal call to love a
neighbor, America's culture is changing. ...Out of the evil done to
this great land is going to come incredible good... (20)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Islam is...a faith based upon love, not hate.
...Americans of all faiths will come together in a spirit of unity...
Everybody ought to worship the Almighty, however they choose. (21)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Tomorrow is September the 12th. A milestone is passed,
and a mission goes on. Be confident. Our country is strong. And our
cause is even larger than our country. Ours is the cause of human
dignity; freedom guided by conscience and guarded by peace. This ideal
of America is the hope of all mankind. That hope drew millions to this
harbor. That hope still lights our way. And the light shines in the
darkness. And the darkness will not overcome it. [John 1:5] May God
bless America. (22)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I am pleased to join you today in the celebration of
Eid, the culmination of the Holy Month of Ramadan. ...Islam traces
its origins back to God's call on Abraham. And Ramadan commemorates
the revelation of God's word in the Holy Koran to the prophet
Mohammad... The spirit behind this holiday is a reminder that...Islam
affirms God's justice... Eid Mubarak. God bless. (23)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely
to Earth; yet we can pray that all are safely home. (24)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: F___ Saddam. We're taking him out. (25)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: America welcomes individuals of all backgrounds and
religions, and our citizens hold diverse beliefs. In prayer, we share
the universal desire to speak and listen to our Maker and to seek the
plans He has for our lives. ...In this hour of history's calling,
Americans are bowing humbly in churches, synagogues, temples, mosques,
and in their own homes, in the presence of the Almighty. ...Now,
therefore, I, George W. Bush, President of the United States of
America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2003, as a National Day of Prayer.
I ask the citizens of our Nation to pray, each after his or her own
faith, in thanksgiving for the freedoms and blessings we have received
and for God's continued guidance and protection. (26)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: We are mindful as well that some good men and women
are not making the journey home. ...Every name, every life is a loss
to our military, to our nation and to the loved ones who grieve.
There is no homecoming for these families. Yet we pray in God's time
their reunion will come. (27)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them,
and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [Hussein], which I did,
and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If
you [Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas] help me I will act, and
if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them. (28)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Islam's a peaceful religion. The basic tenets of
Islam is peace and respect and tolerance. (29)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Ramadan...provides Muslims a time to...practice God's
commands. ...Islam is a peaceful religion... (30)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: Ramadan...this holy time..is...a good time for people
of all faiths to reflect on...[our] gratitude to God... I
particularly want to thank Imam Faizul Khan, who will lead us in
prayer. ...Islam is a religion that brings hope and comfort to good
people across America and around the world. Tonight we honor...the
tradition of Islam by hosting this Iftaar at the White House. (31)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: By encouraging the celebration of faith and sharing of
God's love and boundless mercy, churches like yours [the Metropolitan
Community Churches] put hope in people's hearts and a sense of purpose
in their lives... This milestone provides an opportunity to reflect
on your years of service and to rejoice in God's faithfulness to your
congregation. (32)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: [To the remark, "Some people who share your beliefs
don't believe that Muslims worship the same Almighty."] I do say
that...I believe we worship the same God. (33)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: [To Diane Sawyer's question "are you saying you will
absolutely support a Constitutional amendment against gay marriage and
against gay civil unions?" my answer is:] the position of this
administration is that whatever legal arrangements people want to
make, they're allowed to make, so long as it's embraced by the state
or start[s] at the state level. ...[To her statement that "Vice
President Cheney has spoken out in favor of civil unions [and] In the
2000 election, you said pretty much it was a state issue", I say:]
That's right. Except and unless judicial rulings undermine the
sanctity of marriage. In which case, we may need a Constitutional
amendment. ...I also think it's very important, on this subject, that
the country be tolerant of people and understand people, but tolerance
and belief in marriage aren't mutually exclusive points of view. ...I
do believe in the sanctity of marriage. ... but I don't see that as
conflict with being a tolerant person or an understanding person...
(34)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
GEORGE W. BUSH: I deserve a second term because, first, I've showed
the American people I'm capable of handling tough times... And
secondly, we're changing the world... Let me rephrase that: The world
is changing, and we're helping to change it. ... (35)
ROBERT COATES: Bush was baptized Episcopalian but is now Methodist.
S O U R C E S
(1) George W. Bush in April 1986, addressing Al Hunt of the Wall
Street Journal, quoted in Jake Tapper, "God Is Their CoPilot: Both
Born-Again, Bush and Gore Have Made This the Most God-Fearing
Presidential Race in 100 Years. But Their Faiths Have Led these Men in
Two Completely Different Directions," SALON, 07 July 2000,
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/07/07/born_again/.
(2) George W. Bush in March 1987 quoted by Doug Wead, cited in Hanna
Rosin, "Applying Personal Faith to Public Policy: 'Changed Man'
Advocates Church-Based Programs," WASHINGTON POST, 24 July 2000,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A31740-2000Jul23¬Found=true.
"[George W. Bush's] father, then running for president, was under
attack by what inside the campaign they called 'the aliens' --
evangelical Republicans flocking to the candidacy of Pat Robertson.
Bush arrived in Washington in March 1987 and was put in charge of
'coalitions,' the campaign code word for evangelicals. 'He came in
and said, "We're gonna take this thing over,"' recalls Doug Wead, a
campaign aide with ties to the evangelicals and Bush's partner in the
venture."
(3) George W. Bush in response to a Hartford [Connecticut] Courant
reporter who asked what Bush and his father talked about when they
weren't discussing politics at the 1988 Republican convention, quoted
in Jake Tapper, op. cit.
(4) Texas Governor George W. Bush in 1998, right before leaving for a
trip to Israel, in response to an Austin American-Statesman reporter
who asked Bush what he would say to the Israelis upon arrival, quoted
in Jake Tapper, op. cit.
(5) Texas Governor George W. Bush, quoted in "Bush: Christianity
Central to His Life", RELIGION TODAY, 26 January 2000, or in Peter
Glover, "Playing the Christian Card: The Politics of Religion", CRN
NEWS, Number 9, 2000,
http://www.c-r-n.org.uk/articles/gen_playing.pdf, or in Michael Lind,
"Bush Whistles Dixie," NEWSWEEK, 23 December 2003,
http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=1078, or in
Daniel Lazare, "THE NEW YORKER Goes to War", NATION, 15 May 2003,
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030602&c=1&s=lazare, or in
Robin McKie and Martin Bright, "In the Beginning", OBSERVER, 17 March
2002, http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,668840,00.html,
or in Patrick Johnston, "Why Christians Should Not Vote for George W.
Bush", INTELLECTUAL CONSERVATIVE, 15 February 2004,
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3114.html)
(6) Texas Governor George W. Bush, speaking to James Robinson in the
election year 2000, quoted in Stephen Mansfield, THE FAITH OF GEORGE
W. BUSH, Tarcher/Penguin, November 2003.
(7) Texas Governor George W. Bush, quoted in Jake Tapper, "A 'Major
League Asshole': In an Embarrassing Gaffe, George W. Bush Insults a
New York Times Reporter," SALON, 04 September 2000,
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/09/04/cuss_word/.
(8) Texas Governor George W. Bush, "George W. Bush: Running on His
Faith," US NEWS ONLINE, 1999,
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/33/story_3345_1.html.
(9) Texas Governor George W. Bush, A CHARGE TO KEEP, ed. Mickey
Herskowitz, Morrow,William & Co., November 1999.
(10) Ibid.
(11) Texas Governor George W. Bush interviewed in Walter Isaacson, "My
Heritage Is Part of Who I Am," TIME, 30 July 2000,
http://www.time.com/time/campaign2000/story/textframe_bushinterview1.html
and http://www.time.com/time/campaign2000/story/textframe_bushinterview2.html.
(12) Texas Governor George W. Bush, quoted in Laurie Goodstein,
"Bush's 'Jesus Day' Is Called a First Amendment Violation," NEW YORK
TIMES, 06 August 2000, http://www.beth-am.org/index2.cfm?page=362.
(13) US President George W. Bush, "Remarks by the President at
National Prayer Breakfast, Washington Hilton Hotel, Washington. D.C.,"
Office of the Press Secretary, 01 February 2001,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/02/20010201.html.
(14) US President George W. Bush, "Remarks by the President to
Cardinals, Bishops and Catholic Leaders, The East Room", Office of the
Press Secretary, 21 March 2001,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/03/20010322.html.
(15) US President George W. Bush, "Remarks by the President at
Dedication of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center, Catholic
University Washington, D.C.", Office of the Press Secretary, 22 March
2001, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/03/20010322-14.html
and http://www.usembassy.it/file2001_03/alia/a1032206.htm.
(16) US President George W. Bush quoted in John F. Harris, "Bush Gets
More International Support For U.S. Campaign Against Terrorism:
Officials Warn New Attacks Are Possible," WASHINGTON POST, 17
September 2001, page A01,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41157/2001Sep16.html.
(17) US President George W. Bush, "Text: Bush Welcomes Muslim
Americans to White House," 26 September 2001,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/attacked/transcripts/bushtext2_092601.html.
(18) US President George W. Bush, "Remarks by the President to
Community and Religious Leaders, Spaso House, Moscow, Russia," Office
of the Press Secretary, 24 May 2002,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/05/20020524-12.html.
(19) US President George W. Bush, "President Bush, President Putin
Discuss Joint Efforts against Terrorism: Remarks by President Bush and
Russian President Putin in Photo Opportunity - Calgary, Kananaskis,
Canada," Office of the Press Secretary, 27 June 2002,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020627-3.html.
(20) US President George W. Bush, "President Talks Homeland/Economic
Security at Mt. Rushmore: Remarks by the President on Homeland
Security and the Budget," Mount Rushmore, South Dakota, Office of the
Press Secretary, 15 August 2002,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/08/20020815.html.
(21) US President George W. Bush, "President Bush Holds Roundtable
with Arab- and Muslim-American Leaders, Embassy at Afghanistan,
Washington, D.C.," Office of the Press Secretary, 10 September 2002,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020910-7.html.
(22) US President George W. Bush, "President's Remarks to the Nation,
Ellis Island, New York, New York", Office of the Press Secretary, 11
September 2002, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020911-3.html.
(23) US President George W. Bush, "President Commemorates Eid al-Fitr:
Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr, The Islamic Center of
Washington, D.C., Washington, D.C.," Office of the Press Secretary, 05
December 2002, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/12/20021205-5.html.
(24) US President George W. Bush, "President Addresses Nation on Space
Shuttle Columbia Tragedy: Remarks by the President on the Loss of
Space Shuttle Columbia, The Cabinet Room, 01 February 2003,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030201-2.html.
(25) US President George W. Bush at the White House in March 2002,
quoted in Michael Elliott and James Carney, "First Stop, Iraq: How Did
the U.S. End up Taking on Saddam? The Inside Story of How Iraq Jumped
to the Top of Bush's Agenda -- and Why the Outcome There May
Foreshadow a Different World Order," TIME, 23 March 2003,
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030331/wroad.html.
(26) US President George W. Bush, "National Day of Prayer, 2003, by
the President of the United States of America: A Proclamation," Office
of the Press Secretary, 30 April 2003,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030430-22.html.
(27) US President George W. Bush, "Full Text: Bush Speech Aboard the
USS Abraham Lincoln," 01 May 2003,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2627-2003May1.html.
(28) US President George W. Bush, quoted by Palestinian Prime Minister
Mahmoud Abbas, in Arnon Regular, "'Road Map Is a Life Saver for Us,'
PM Abbas Tells Hamas," HAARETZ, 25 June 2003,
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310788&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y.
Also cf. Chris Floyd, "Errand Boy," MOSCOW TIMES, 27 June 2003,
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/06/27/120.html.
(29) US President George W. Bush, "Roundtable Interview of the
President by the Press Pool, Aboard Air Force One, En Route Canberra,
Australia," Office of the Press Secretary, 22 October 2003,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031022-7.html.
(30) US President George W. Bush, "President's Ramadan Message,"
Office of the Press Secretary, 24 October 2003,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031024-10.html.
(31) US President George W. Bush, "Remarks by the President at Iftaar
with Ambassadors and Muslim Leaders, State Floor," Office of the Press
Secretary, 28 October 2003,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031028-9.html.
(32) US President George W. Bush, Letter dating 14 October 2003 to the
founding congregation in Los Angeles of the Metropolitan Community
Churches, led by leading homosexual activist Rev. Troy D. Perry, on
the occasion of its 35th anniversary. quoted in "Bush Cheers 'Gay'
Church after 'Marriage Week': Attempts to Please Family Advocates,
Homosexuals Baffle Both Groups", WORLDNETDAILY, 12 November 2003,
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35539.
(33) US President George W. Bush, "President Bush, Prime Minister Hold
Joint Press Conference, Foreign and Commonwealth Offices, London,
England," Office of the Press Secretary, 20 November 2003,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031120-3.html; also
"Text of Bush, Blair Remarks: A Text of President Bush's and British
Prime Minister Tony Blair's Remarks Thursday at the Foreign and
Commonwealth Offices in London, As provided by the White House,"
ASSOCIATED PRESS, 20 November 2003,
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-bush-blair-text,0,5763089.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines.
(34) US President George W. Bush, "繕ltimate Penalty': Excerpts From
Interview With President Bush -- Part 3," Diane Sawyer's Dec. 16
interview with President Bush, 16 December 2003,
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/US/bush_sawyer_excerpts_3_031216.html.
(35) US President George W. Bush, quoted in Bill Sammon, "Bush Aims to
Avoid Father's Mistakes", WASHINGTON TIMES, 10 May 2004,
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040510-122703-4851r.htm.
Sumbuny
<posting from a.r.c.r-c>
I watched the funeral with interest--it was very moving, very beautiful. As
a Catholic choir member, I have sung at many funeral Masses, and Catholic
funeral services (not including a Mass) and I noted many similarities.
However, I do have a question:
What church ritual was the basis for the ceremony here?
I understand the Reagans are Presbyterian, and that the minister who
conducted the service is Episcopalian....would those in either of those
church say that the service--though ecumenical--was basically Episcopalian,
or Presbyterian?
Thanks,
Buny
jeb
news:rA2zc.6504$qg.6139@lakeread06...
Prayer (page 469) - the service for the "Burial of the Dead" (Rite 1). Some
parts were left out but what he did recite was verbatim from the liturgy, up
to the point where the Eucharist would normally (?) start. [Actually, I've
never seen Eucharist happen at an Episcopal funeral, but it's in the prayer
book.]
He may have also recited some of the prayers following the Eucharist part of
the liturgy, I don't know.
Sumbuny
"jeb" <qwert...@zxcvbnm.lkj> wrote in message
news:WJ7zc.64665$My6.2886@fed1read05...
Thanks! Much of the ritual was very similar to a Catholic Memorial service,
except that there was no Eucharist (Catholic Memorial services do have the
distribution of the Eucharist; the Mass has the full Liturgy of the
Eucharist, which includes the consecration from bread/wine to Body/Blood).
I actually caught myself a couple of times thinking the (Catholic)
responses--they were not the same, but close.
I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different words
than we have--beautiful just the same.
This is what I like about UseNet (I am posting from a.r.c.r-c), even the
cross-posting (or *because* of it?).....we can *learn from each other*, if
we dare to! <G>
Buny
Elbert Wall
> Thanks! Much of the ritual was very similar to a Catholic Memorial service,
> except that there was no Eucharist (Catholic Memorial services do have the
> distribution of the Eucharist; the Mass has the full Liturgy of the
> Eucharist, which includes the consecration from bread/wine to Body/Blood).
> I actually caught myself a couple of times thinking the (Catholic)
> responses--they were not the same, but close.
>
> I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different words
> than we have--beautiful just the same.
It's hymn 376 in the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal, though I didn't pay close
enough attention to know if those were the words they used. The
Southern Baptists call the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee" and use
a completely different tune.
> This is what I like about UseNet (I am posting from a.r.c.r-c), even the
> cross-posting (or *because* of it?).....we can *learn from each other*, if
> we dare to! <G>
Scary, isn't it?
dancertm
wrote:
The neat thing is, minus the choir, and military things, the late
president got the same service every Episcopalian gets.
Sine Nomine
news:zzCzc.5503$Wr....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Sumbuny wrote:
-- snip --
> > I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different
words
> > than we have--beautiful just the same.
>
> It's hymn 376 in the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal, though I didn't pay close
> enough attention to know if those were the words they used. The
> Southern Baptists call the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee" and use
> a completely different tune.
The Hymn Tune was indeed Hymnal 1982 number 376 "Hymn to Joy" (after
Beethoven's "Ode to Joy"). The hymn itself, however is not in either the
1940 or 1982 hymnals. It is the first two verses of William J. Iron's 1873
hymn "Sing with all the saints in glory"
(originally "Sing with all the sons of glory")
As sung in the service, the words are:
"Sing with all the saints in glory, sing the resurrection song!
Death and sorrow, earth’s dark story, to the former days belong.
All around the clouds are breaking, soon the storms of time shall cease;
In God’s likeness we, awaken, knowing the everlasting peace.
"O what glory, far exceeding all that eye has yet perceived!
Holiest hearts, for ages pleading, never that full joy conceived.
God has promised, Christ prepares it, there on high our welcome waits.
Every humble spirit shares it; Christ has passed th’eternal gates.."
--
Respectfully,
Sine Nomine
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
everyone. (Romans 12:18)
To reply via e-mail, remove -nospamplease- from address.
Matthew Weber
"Fred Goodwin, CMA" wrote:
Â
God Bless Ronald Reagan and the United States of America.Fred Goodwin
Diocese of West Texas
Prayers for the dead, Fred? How...Catholic.
--
Matthew Weber
Curatorial Assistant
Music Library
University of California, Berkeley
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any
remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
 The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _Ecclesiastes; or,
The Preacher_ 1:11
Â
Sumbuny
"Sine Nomine" <Sine.nomine@-nospamplease-att.net> wrote in message
news:ulDzc.18280$Di3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Thanks for sharing the words used at this service....Ode to Joy is one of my
favorite songs (I used it at my wedding), and it always gives me goosbumps,
even without lyrics. These verses are very apropos for a funeral.
Buny
Sine Nomine
-- snip --
> Thanks for sharing the words used at this service
-- snip --
My pleasure.
--
Respectfully,
Sine Nomine
Media vita in morte sumus:
quem quærimus adiutorem,
nisi te Domine?
Elbert Wall
> "Sumbuny" <IGNORETH...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:%m_zc.1071$r84.845@lakeread06...
>
> -- snip --
>
>
>>Thanks for sharing the words used at this service
>
>
> -- snip --
>
> My pleasure.
>
OK, now ...
What was that absolutely gorgeous piece the orchestra played while
Ray-Gun was being carried out of the Cathedral? I'd love to add it to
my collection of CDs. I've been scanning the Hymnal to see if it's one
of ours, with no success so far.
And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!) of
the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
And I was also pleased at the enormous compliments CNN gave us on the
conduct of the funeral and the beauty of the church. With so many vile
ceremonies being held in buildings that would serve better as bowling
alleys, it's refreshing to see that some people still think a church
should look like a church, and a congregation should still show some
reverence. CNN remarked that if nothing else, the US at least knows how
to do a state funeral.
Priscilla Ballou
Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
> And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!) of
> the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
> how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
> them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
Bowing when the cross passes is by no means a universal practice among
Episcopalians. I would hazard a guess that at my church we have about a
50% cross-bow rate. I don't do it, myself.
Priscilla
--
"This religion [Christianity] isn't for sissies." - my friend Jane
"Being in the church is sometimes like doing the Bunny Hop."
- my same friend Jane
dancertm
wrote:
It is my understanding the recessional was music by John Williams from
the film Band of Brothers, and was based in part on the hymn tune
Abide With Me (although I could not hear the tune clearly with the new
harmonies.) I've also heard the title We Were Soldiers which might be
what Williams named it.
I watched the funeral on CSPAN, no one talking as they always let the
experience speak for itself.
The UK can still out do us, but we're pretty damn close.
Sine Nomine
-- snip --
> What was that absolutely gorgeous piece the orchestra played while
> Ray-Gun was being carried out of the Cathedral? I'd love to add it to
> my collection of CDs. I've been scanning the Hymnal to see if it's one
> of ours, with no success so far.
Former President Reagan's recessional was by Nick Glennie-Smith from the
score of the Mel Gibson vehicle "We Were Soldiers." The arrangement uses a
motif that seems to appear (haven't seen the movie) throughout the film.
The End Credits include the hymn "Mansions Of The Lord" by Randall Wallace,
who adapted the original book for the screenplay and also directed the movie
and appears to be the source of the performance at the end of the service.
You can find a somewhat inaccurate document on the service music for this
event at this link:
http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/pdfs/servicemusic040611.pdf
It does have the benefit of giving all the prelude music as well as the
music for the service proper, and it includes the words of all sung pieces.
> And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!)
Um, not so long as it costs so much (it ain't the hardware, it's the
subscription that bugs me). I will continue to use VCR tapes with the
intention of transferring them to DVD when I upgrade my computer (someday).
> of
> the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
> how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
> them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
I always thought this a rather high church devotional gesture. I did so
since, as a former RC I was quite comfortable with this kind of ritual, but
I have never been in an Episcopal church where this was a universal
practice. Now, that Episcopal Monastery I attended for some years in
Denver, THAT's a different story altogether.....
> And I was also pleased at the enormous compliments CNN gave us on the
> conduct of the funeral and the beauty of the church. With so many vile
> ceremonies being held in buildings that would serve better as bowling
> alleys, it's refreshing to see that some people still think a church
> should look like a church, and a congregation should still show some
> reverence.
Well, it does depend on what you think a church should look like to begin
with, I would guess. I believe I took quite a bit longer than even this
country has been in existence for buildings that even slightly resemble the
Cathedral Church of St. Peter and St. Paul to appear (about one-and-a-half
millenium, I am guessing). I am more a fan of "Grace Cathedral" in San
Francisco, but I no longer enjoy their services. The National Cathedral
certainly does lend itself to the pomp desired for such an event.
> CNN remarked that if nothing else, the US at least knows how
> to do a state funeral.
Well, in this case, at least. Personally, I taped the C-SPAN coverage to
avoid the "talk, don't listen" approach to church service coverage.
--
Respectfully,
Sine Nomine
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
everyone. (Romans 12:18)
To reply via e-mail, remove -nospamplease- from address.
Sumbuny
"Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vze23t8n-57F820...@news.verizon.net...
> In article <WjgAc.4089$w07....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
>
> > And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!) of
> > the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
> > how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
> > them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
>
> Bowing when the cross passes is by no means a universal practice among
> Episcopalians. I would hazard a guess that at my church we have about a
> 50% cross-bow rate. I don't do it, myself.
IIRC, bowing is an Eastern sign of respect (after spending 3 years on
Okinawa in the early '90s, I got in the habit myself for a while! <G>)
Considering the mentality of Jesus' culture (oriental, not occidental), it
would not be unusual for those in the Christian churches to bow (even
slightly) as a sign of respect.
Buny
Elbert Wall
> "Elbert Wall" <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote in message
> news:WjgAc.4089$w07....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Um, not so long as it costs so much (it ain't the hardware, it's the
> subscription that bugs me). I will continue to use VCR tapes with the
> intention of transferring them to DVD when I upgrade my computer (someday).
I paid $100 for installation and I pay an extra $4.99 a month to DirecTV
for the TiVo service. I think it's money well spent.
Thanks for the info on the music.
Priscilla H Ballou
Oh, I bow to the Table or to someone who is bowing to me (like before and
after then incense me), but just not as the cross passes. Doesn't
compute with me.
Priscilla
--
"Come to Planet Earth! Watch people with brains not use them! Several
shows daily! Free admittance!" Keera Ann Fox in alt.support.menopause
Priscilla H Ballou
>I paid $100 for installation and I pay an extra $4.99 a month to DirecTV
>for the TiVo service. I think it's money well spent.
If I weren't interested in receiving local stations, I might go with
DirecTV and TiVo, but I am, so I'm not.
Sine Nomine
The cost is a bit more expensive right now outside of the DirectTV package.
TiVo will probably become a bundled part of digital Cable eventually. I am
not really an early adapter.
> Thanks for the info on the music.
You betcha! 8^)
Elbert Wall
> If I weren't interested in receiving local stations, I might go with
> DirecTV and TiVo, but I am, so I'm not.
Gotcha covered. I get all the Memphis stations: 3, 5, 10, 13, 24 and
30. The only things I don't get are 1) the Little Rock stations and 2)
local radar composite from The Weather Channel. That last is because I
live out in the woods and they can't tell which market I belong to,
though they should default to the Memphis market.
All this for about what I was paying my cable "provider."
I chose CNN for the coverage because a) I trusted them and b) I don't
know no better.
Anyway, I think I'm going to burn a DVD with just the coverage from when
the hearse arrives at the Cathedral until they put Ronnie back in the
hearse. That's just under two hours and will fit nicely on a standard
play DVD.
Full disclosure: I couldn't stand Reagan, right-winger that I am. But
he had a hell of a going-away party. I want one just like that.
Elbert Wall
> Oh, I bow to the Table or to someone who is bowing to me (like before and
> after then incense me), but just not as the cross passes. Doesn't
> compute with me.
I guess Calvary is "higher" than your church. I take my cues from the
choir and clergy. They all bow
1) when a cross passes
2) at the mention of the Trinity during the Doxology
3) at the mention of the incarnation in the Creed
4) when passing across the center of the church
5) when entering my pew, if I have not observed 4)
6) when leaving my pew for communion
I also bow at any mention of Christ's name during the rite, and any time
that crossing myself is impractical. I do not bow when entering the church.
I noticed on reviewing RR's funeral that most of the congregation
crossed themselves when his coffin passed on entering the church.
Crossing is a whole 'nother animal.
Elbert Wall
... some idiocies.
I see that I got lost in my own train of thought.
Matthew Weber
Elbert Wall wrote:
Priscilla H Ballou wrote:> Oh, I bow to the Table or to someone who is bowing to me (like before and
> after then incense me), but just not as the cross passes. Doesn't
> compute with me.I guess Calvary is "higher" than your church. I take my cues from the
choir and clergy. They all bow1) when a cross passes
2) at the mention of the Trinity during the Doxology
3) at the mention of the incarnation in the Creed
Most people in my church genuflect here.
Â
4) when passing across the center of the church
It's customary to bow to the altar in this case; one also genuflects to the reserved Sacrament.
Â
5) when entering my pew, if I have not observed 4)
6) when leaving my pew for communionI also bow at any mention of Christ's name during the rite,
The Catholic tradition (whence this comes) is that one should bow at any mention of the Holy Name (i.e. Jesus). In true nit-picking Tridentine fashion, the title "Christ" by itself does not rate a bow.
There are also odd places in the rubrics where bowing or genuflecting
is done; I think there's a point in the Alleluia for Pentecost where everyone's
supposed to genuflect. Fortescue's Ceremonies of the Roman Rite
is a very interesting exposition of exactly what is supposed to happen
when, in very minute detail.
Â
--
Matthew Weber
Curatorial Assistant
Music Library
University of California, Berkeley
Wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
 The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _Ecclesiastes; or,
The Preacher_ 2:13
Â
Priscilla H Ballou
Huh? I thought it was interesting. Don't say mean things about my friend
Elbert!
john j
Elbert Wall
>
> Elbert Wall wrote:
>
>> I guess Calvary is "higher" than your church. I take my cues from the
>> choir and clergy. They all bow
>>
>> 1) when a cross passes
>> 2) at the mention of the Trinity during the Doxology
>> 3) at the mention of the incarnation in the Creed
>>
> Most people in my church genuflect here.
We say the Creed in the pews. How do you get on one knee there? Or do
you just sort of curtsy?
>>
>> 4) when passing across the center of the church
>
> It's customary to bow to the altar in this case; one also genuflects to
> the reserved Sacrament.
>
>>
>> 5) when entering my pew, if I have not observed 4)
>> 6) when leaving my pew for communion
>>
>> I also bow at any mention of Christ's name during the rite,
>>
> The Catholic tradition (whence this comes) is that one should bow at any
> mention of the Holy Name (i.e. Jesus). In true nit-picking Tridentine
> fashion, the title "Christ" by itself does not rate a bow.
True. I misspoke.
> There are also odd places in the rubrics where bowing or genuflecting is
> done; I think there's a point in the Alleluia for Pentecost where
> everyone's supposed to genuflect. Fortescue's Ceremonies of the Roman
> Rite is a very interesting exposition of exactly what is supposed to
> happen when, in very minute detail.
One of our vergers crosses himself during the Prayers of the People when
the prayer is for the dead. And I have a good friend who gets on one
knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
We recently installed the stations of the cross, though I had to work
last Good Friday and missed the ceremony. Don't know what they did.
Elbert Wall
> Episcopalians doing all this bowing seems very , Papist to me, LOL
>
Dunnit though?
Matthew Weber
Elbert Wall wrote:
> Matthew Weber wrote:
>
> We say the Creed in the pews. How do you get on one knee there? Or do
> you just sort of curtsy?
>
We have benches. :) The older members of the congregation just bow, though
(and we sing the Creed, btw).
>
>
> One of our vergers crosses himself during the Prayers of the People when
> the prayer is for the dead.
It seems to be traditional to do so at the phrase "May the souls of all the
faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace."
> And I have a good friend who gets on one
> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
>
This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to anyone you
owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
Hugh Beyer
news:40D70574...@library.berkeley.edu:
>> And I have a good friend who gets on one
>> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
>>
>
> This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
>
But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
reserved sacrement.
Hugh
--
Saying evolution proves that God doesn't exist makes as much sense as saying
hammers prove that carpenters don't exist.
Elbert Wall
> But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
> reserved sacrement.
Well, sorta. Our reserved sacrament is put into small boxes to be taken
by LEMs to what we used to call "the shut-ins." The commissioning of
the LEMs is a short bit right at the end of the Eucharist.
And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
Priscilla Ballou
Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
Priscilla
Gabby
Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
Gabby
Brian J Dawson
While the service did take place in a ECUSA Cathedral it was ecumenical and
hence not a Eucharist. (I assume from this post it wasn't as I did not view
it on TV). When members of the ECUSA die we have the Eucharist at the
funeral. The Eucharist is the MOST important rite of our church.
I have seen many ECUSA funerals. Both as a acolyte darning my youth and for
my parents. The Eucharist is ALWAYS celebrated. Sometimes it can be a low
service that depends on the family of the deceased but it is always a
Eucharist!
Also you mentioned the responses were close but not the same as the
Catholic. While a liberal I prefer the old english rite that we used prior
to the late 1970's. After that our church introduced modern english for rite
2. However in rite 2 we have about four or five (someone correct me here)
subrites. It just seems that no one wants to have ritual anchors anymore. So
the responses vary with it being Rite 1 (old english) or rite 2 (modern
english) with several subvarieties.
Brian J Dawson
Brian J Dawson
"Sumbuny" <IGNORETH...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:e1pzc.7031$qg.6426@lakeread06...
>
> "jeb" <qwert...@zxcvbnm.lkj> wrote in message
> news:WJ7zc.64665$My6.2886@fed1read05...
> > "Sumbuny" <IGNORETH...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:rA2zc.6504$qg.6139@lakeread06...
> > >
> > > <posting from a.r.c.r-c>
> > >
> > > I watched the funeral with interest--it was very moving, very
beautiful.
> > As
> > > a Catholic choir member, I have sung at many funeral Masses, and
> Catholic
> > > funeral services (not including a Mass) and I noted many
similarities.
> > >
> > > However, I do have a question:
> > >
> > > What church ritual was the basis for the ceremony here?
> > >
> > > I understand the Reagans are Presbyterian, and that the minister who
> > > conducted the service is Episcopalian....would those in either of
those
> > > church say that the service--though ecumenical--was basically
> > Episcopalian,
> > > or Presbyterian?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Buny
> > >
> > What Rev Danforth said was straight out of the Episcopal Book of Common
> > Prayer (page 469) - the service for the "Burial of the Dead" (Rite 1).
> Some
> > parts were left out but what he did recite was verbatim from the
liturgy,
> up
> > to the point where the Eucharist would normally (?) start. [Actually,
I've
> > never seen Eucharist happen at an Episcopal funeral, but it's in the
> prayer
> > book.]
> >
> > He may have also recited some of the prayers following the Eucharist
part
> of
> > the liturgy, I don't know.
>
>
> Thanks! Much of the ritual was very similar to a Catholic Memorial
service,
> except that there was no Eucharist (Catholic Memorial services do have the
> distribution of the Eucharist; the Mass has the full Liturgy of the
> Eucharist, which includes the consecration from bread/wine to Body/Blood).
> I actually caught myself a couple of times thinking the (Catholic)
> responses--they were not the same, but close.
>
> I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different
words
> than we have--beautiful just the same.
>
> This is what I like about UseNet (I am posting from a.r.c.r-c), even the
> cross-posting (or *because* of it?).....we can *learn from each other*, if
> we dare to! <G>
> Buny
>
>
Priscilla Ballou
"Brian J Dawson" <nos...@spiderfree.com> wrote:
> I have seen many ECUSA funerals. Both as a acolyte darning my youth and for
> my parents. The Eucharist is ALWAYS celebrated. Sometimes it can be a low
> service that depends on the family of the deceased but it is always a
> Eucharist!
Nope. Not true. There are definitely ECUSA funerals which are not
Eucharist.
Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou
"Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
both Episcopalians.
But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
other for oils?
Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou
Paul Harwood <pa...@wrevel.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:28:31 GMT, Hugh Beyer said in
> alt.religion.christian.episcopal:
>
> >Matthew Weber <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in
>
> >> This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> >> anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
> >>
> >
> >But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
> >reserved sacrement.
>
> What rule is that? We have reserve sacrament in our aumbry pretty
> much all the time -- and a darn good thing, too, because I had to
> refill the chalice *twice* from the reserve sacrament this past
> Sunday. Are we violating some canon somewhere with this practice?
Nope. We have reserved sacrament too a lot of the time. It may be
needed for the sick/homebound or the presider may not put enough on the
plate for consecration and need to dip into the leftovers.
Priscilla
Hugh Beyer
Huh. One of the 39 Articles states that the sacrament is not to be reserved,
I believe to prevent all that nasty papist idolatry associated with it. I was
sure that I had seen rubrics stating that it was not to be reserved, but any
extra "consumed reverently"--the only exceptions being that some could be
taken right away to the sick, and you could hold some over on Good Friday.
But you weren't supposed to keep it otherwise.
But I did a quick search and can't find any support for that in the rules and
in practice it seems that a lot of churches are assuming there will be
reserved sacrament around.
So was I just hallucinating?
Priscilla Ballou
Priscilla Ballou <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to add.... I think you mean "ciborium" rather than
"chalice." Putting wafers in the chalice would end you up with mush.
;-)
Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou
Hugh Beyer <beyer...@acm.org> wrote:
> Priscilla Ballou <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:vze23t8n-8FDCF6...@news.verizon.net:
>
> > In article <8h4fd0hrn7jnhmt67...@4ax.com>,
> > Paul Harwood <pa...@wrevel.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:28:31 GMT, Hugh Beyer said in
> >> alt.religion.christian.episcopal:
> >>
> >> >Matthew Weber <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in
> >>
> >> >> This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> >> >> anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there
> >> >is no reserved sacrement.
> >>
> >> What rule is that? We have reserve sacrament in our aumbry pretty
> >> much all the time -- and a darn good thing, too, because I had to
> >> refill the chalice *twice* from the reserve sacrament this past
> >> Sunday. Are we violating some canon somewhere with this practice?
> >
> > Nope. We have reserved sacrament too a lot of the time. It may be
> > needed for the sick/homebound or the presider may not put enough on the
> > plate for consecration and need to dip into the leftovers.
>
> Huh. One of the 39 Articles states that the sacrament is not to be reserved,
And we adhere so closely to the 39 Articles today. ;-)
> I believe to prevent all that nasty papist idolatry associated with it. I was
> sure that I had seen rubrics stating that it was not to be reserved, but any
> extra "consumed reverently"--the only exceptions being that some could be
> taken right away to the sick, and you could hold some over on Good Friday.
> But you weren't supposed to keep it otherwise.
I think pastoral need would (should!) trump rubrics. If you've got a
parish (as we do) with lots of elderly, and you cover at least one
nursing home, then you may need "Jesus to go" on short notice. I don't
think we've got much/any reserved right now, though, because our supply
priest this past Sunday was breaking hosts in pieces since the altar
guild (or whoever set up the elements for the offertory) misestimated
turnout.
> But I did a quick search and can't find any support for that in the rules and
> in practice it seems that a lot of churches are assuming there will be
> reserved sacrament around.
>
> So was I just hallucinating?
I don't know. Was it fun?
Priscilla
Gabby
> In article <10df7o4...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > > > Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
> > > > And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
> > > > Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
> > > What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
> > In the Catholic Church the ambry holds the Sacred Oils (Oil of
Catechumen,
> > Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
>
> I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
> both Episcopalians.
>
> But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
> tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
> other for oils?
Yes. Many churches now display the oils in a glass fronted ambry, usually
close to the Baptismal Font. The Tabernacle holds the Blessed Sacrament
either in the Sanctuary or in a Reservation Chapel.
Gabby
Priscilla Ballou
"Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
> "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:vze23t8n-2210F8...@news.verizon.net...
> > In article <10df7o4...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > > Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
> > > > > And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
> > > > > Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
>
> > > > What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
>
> > > In the Catholic Church the ambry holds the Sacred Oils (Oil of
> Catechumen,
> > > Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
> >
> > I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
> > both Episcopalians.
> >
> > But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
> > tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
> > other for oils?
>
> Yes. Many churches now display the oils in a glass fronted ambry, usually
> close to the Baptismal Font. The Tabernacle holds the Blessed Sacrament
> either in the Sanctuary or in a Reservation Chapel.
Thanks. I didn't know that before.
Priscilla
Hugh Beyer
I agree, and on the 39 articles too. This is of interest to me mostly
because of the theological and historical implications, and also because
it's more fun to break the rules if you know what they are. :0)
> If you've got a
> parish (as we do) with lots of elderly, and you cover at least one
> nursing home, then you may need "Jesus to go" on short notice. I don't
> think we've got much/any reserved right now, though, because our supply
> priest this past Sunday was breaking hosts in pieces since the altar
> guild (or whoever set up the elements for the offertory) misestimated
> turnout.
>
>> But I did a quick search and can't find any support for that in the
>> rules and in practice it seems that a lot of churches are assuming
>> there will be reserved sacrament around.
>>
>> So was I just hallucinating?
>
> I don't know. Was it fun?
Not nearly as much fun as it should have been.
john j
Papist Idolitry? at least in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church
we all acknowledge what the Eucharist , is. Its not a matter of local
opinion as it is in the PECUSA .
Priscilla Ballou
Hugh Beyer <beyer...@acm.org> wrote:
> Priscilla Ballou <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:vze23t8n-D11401...@news.verizon.net:
> > I think pastoral need would (should!) trump rubrics.
>
> I agree, and on the 39 articles too. This is of interest to me mostly
> because of the theological and historical implications, and also because
> it's more fun to break the rules if you know what they are. :0)
Heh! And easier to defend yourself to the Bishop. ;-)
Priscilla
Elbert Wall
> Hi Sumbury,
> While the service did take place in a ECUSA Cathedral it was ecumenical and
> hence not a Eucharist. (I assume from this post it wasn't as I did not view
> it on TV). When members of the ECUSA die we have the Eucharist at the
> funeral. The Eucharist is the MOST important rite of our church.
>
> I have seen many ECUSA funerals. Both as a acolyte darning my youth and for
> my parents. The Eucharist is ALWAYS celebrated. Sometimes it can be a low
> service that depends on the family of the deceased but it is always a
> Eucharist!
>
> Also you mentioned the responses were close but not the same as the
> Catholic. While a liberal I prefer the old english rite that we used prior
> to the late 1970's. After that our church introduced modern english for rite
> 2. However in rite 2 we have about four or five (someone correct me here)
> subrites. It just seems that no one wants to have ritual anchors anymore. So
> the responses vary with it being Rite 1 (old english) or rite 2 (modern
> english) with several subvarieties.
Episcopal Rite I is vastly different from Rite II, in more than just
language. Rite I includes a recitation of the Decalog, and its
principal speaker is the priest. Rite II has much more congregational
participation and has four official variants, the Eucharistic Prayers A
through D.
Rite I was intended to be used once a month, and Rite II weekly.
Finally, Rite I is used at some impossibly early hour, clearly with a
view to discouraging people from attending.
And you are correct: Some people find regularity stupifying; I suspect
the clergy are most susceptible to this boredom.
dancertm
wrote:
>
>"Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:vze23t8n-2210F8...@news.verizon.net...
>> In article <10df7o4...@corp.supernews.com>,
>> "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> > "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
>> > > > Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
>> > > > And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
>> > > > Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
>
>> > > What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
>
>> > In the Catholic Church the ambry holds the Sacred Oils (Oil of
>Catechumen,
>> > Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
>>
>> I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
>> both Episcopalians.
>>
>> But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
>> tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
>> other for oils?
>
>Yes. Many churches now display the oils in a glass fronted ambry, usually
>close to the Baptismal Font. The Tabernacle holds the Blessed Sacrament
>either in the Sanctuary or in a Reservation Chapel.
>
>Gabby
>
At St. Wilfrids they are both kept in the Tabernacle in the Chapel.
All but once, but this happened during construction. When he Rector at
the time visited the construction he found a coke can in what was to
become the Tabernacle :-)
Matthew Weber
Hugh Beyer wrote:
> Matthew Weber <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in
> news:40D70574...@library.berkeley.edu:
>
> >> And I have a good friend who gets on one
> >> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
> >>
> >
> > This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> > anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
> >
>
> But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
> reserved sacrement.
>
>
While I won't say they're "wrong," the idea behind genuflection is that you bend
the knee to the tabernacle and what's in it. The altar (if it's in a different
place than the tabernacle is) receives a bow when you cross the sanctuary. I
have noticed, especially with RC folks, that the two have become conflated so
that often people genuflect toward the altar regardless of whether the
tabernacle is there or not, and whether or not there even is a tabernacle. I
like the distinction myself, but on the other hand, this is how customs come
into being and change.
Sumbuny
"Matthew Weber" <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:40D9A6AE...@library.berkeley.edu...
>
>
> Hugh Beyer wrote:
>
> > Matthew Weber <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in
> > news:40D70574...@library.berkeley.edu:
> >
> > >> And I have a good friend who gets on one
> > >> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
> > >>
> > >
> > > This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> > > anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
> > >
> >
> > But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there
is no
> > reserved sacrement.
> >
> >
>
> While I won't say they're "wrong," the idea behind genuflection is that
you bend
> the knee to the tabernacle and what's in it. The altar (if it's in a
different
> place than the tabernacle is) receives a bow when you cross the sanctuary.
I
> have noticed, especially with RC folks, that the two have become conflated
so
> that often people genuflect toward the altar regardless of whether the
> tabernacle is there or not, and whether or not there even is a tabernacle.
I
> like the distinction myself, but on the other hand, this is how customs
come
> into being and change.
<nodding> You genuflect if the Eucharist is in the tabernacle (no
genuflecting on Good Friday, when the Eucharist is removed and the
tabernacle doors left open to show it is empty)....if the Eucharist is out
of the tabernacle (such as when present in the monstrance on the altar for
adoration), one does not merely genuflect, but one goes down on *both* knees
before entering the pew (or upon exiting pew).
Buny
Gabby
>
> "Matthew Weber" <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
> news:40D9A6AE...@library.berkeley.edu...
> I
> > have noticed, especially with RC folks, that the two have become
conflated
> so
> > that often people genuflect toward the altar regardless of whether the
> > tabernacle is there or not, and whether or not there even is a
tabernacle.
> I
> > like the distinction myself, but on the other hand, this is how customs
> come
> > into being and change.
>
>
> <nodding> You genuflect if the Eucharist is in the tabernacle (no
> genuflecting on Good Friday, when the Eucharist is removed and the
> tabernacle doors left open to show it is empty)....if the Eucharist is out
> of the tabernacle (such as when present in the monstrance on the altar for
> adoration), one does not merely genuflect, but one goes down on *both*
knees
> before entering the pew (or upon exiting pew).
The rubrics no longer call for a double genuflection on Holy Thursday. At
least that's what my ORDO tells me. Is it still done at any other time?
Gabby
AGPedersen
>Huh. One of the 39 Articles states that the sacrament is not to be reserved,
>I believe to prevent all that nasty papist idolatry associated with it. I was
>
>sure that I had seen rubrics stating that it was not to be reserved, but any
>extra "consumed reverently"--the only exceptions being that some could be
>taken right away to the sick, and you could hold some over on Good Friday.
>But you weren't supposed to keep it otherwise.
>
>But I did a quick search and can't find any support for that in the rules and
>
>in practice it seems that a lot of churches are assuming there will be
>reserved sacrament around.
>
>So was I just hallucinating?
>
> Hugh
I suspect the rubric you are looking for is on page 84 of the 1928 prayerbook.
It says: " And if any of the consecrated Bread and Wine remain after the
Communion, it shall not be carried out of the Church; but the Minister adn
other Communicants shall, immeadiately after the Blessing, reverently eat and
drink the same."
I have never personally seen any such rubric in the 1979 prayerbook. My late
father, the priest, told me on one occassion that as far as he could tell that
was one of the differences between the 1928 and 1979 prayerbook.
My other discussions with him over the years on the subject lead me to believe
as you do that the primary thrust of Anglican thought as expressed in the 39
articles was ban or highly discourage "adoration" o the sacrament. Especially,
whole 'services' where the sacrament was taken out and paraded about then
returned to the tabernacle without there even being a eucharist service.
Peace.
Arthur
Priscilla H Ballou
>My other discussions with him over the years on the subject lead me to believe
>as you do that the primary thrust of Anglican thought as expressed in the 39
>articles was ban or highly discourage "adoration" o the sacrament. Especially,
>whole 'services' where the sacrament
-- one host --
> was taken out and paraded about
in a monstrance
> then
>returned to the tabernacle without there even being a eucharist service.
AKA "Benediction."
It's truly a wierd devotion I had a very hard time understanding when I
became RC 24 years ago. I think I understand the emotional draw of it, but it
certainly doesn't fit into my current theology, and I can't imagine any
ECUSA church being sufficiently high to indulge in it.
Priscilla
--
"Come to Planet Earth! Watch people with brains not use them! Several
shows daily! Free admittance!" Keera Ann Fox in alt.support.menopause
dancertm
As an EM, I could not do without Elements in the Tabernacle. I am on
call for two hospitals for unchurched Episcopalians who request
Eucharist, and there have been other times when I've had to do a
mid-week home visit. It's very easy for me to pack a home communion
kit and take care of things. Hording is good :-)
AGPedersen
>Especially,
>>whole 'services' where the sacrament
>
>-- one host --
>
>> was taken out and paraded about
>
>in a monstrance
>
>> then
>>returned to the tabernacle without there even being a eucharist service.
>
>AKA "Benediction."
>
>It's truly a wierd devotion I had a very hard time understanding when I
>became RC 24 years ago. I think I understand the emotional draw of it,
At some level I think I can, also. Even with without a sojourn into the RC
world. I found myself about two years ago on a street in a small German town
where they were celebrating a religious feast with a parade through the town of
the host in a Monstrance. It was interesting to watch. But, I had to do some
real soul searching as to how to respond. Selecting a "posture" that at one
time maintained proper reverence for the Real Presence, without seemingly given
approval to their way of handling it. My Anglican upbringing being what it is.
I chose to find a different street to walk on.
> but it certainly doesn't fit into my current >theology, and I can't imagine
any
>ECUSA church being sufficiently high to indulge in it.
Agreed on both points.
Peace,
Arthur
AGPedersen
>As an EM, I could not do without Elements in the Tabernacle. I am on
>call for two hospitals for unchurched Episcopalians who request
>Eucharist, and there have been other times when I've had to do a
>mid-week home visit. It's very easy for me to pack a home communion
>kit and take care of things. Hording is good :-)
Since the Rubrics on the subject seem to have disappeared with the 1979 BCP and
the 39 Articles are now regarded as historical documents, unless one can find
some other legal impediment reserved sacrament would seem to be totally
permissable.
Perhaps we finally figured out it was not necessary to throw out the baby with
the bath water on this. We could have reserved sacrament for the uses you
outline without going off into the "flights of adoration" that existed in the
RC world.
Peace,
Arthur
Matthew Weber
Priscilla H Ballou wrote:
>
> AKA "Benediction."
>
> It's truly a wierd devotion I had a very hard time understanding when I
> became RC 24 years ago. I think I understand the emotional draw of it, but it
> certainly doesn't fit into my current theology, and I can't imagine any
> ECUSA church being sufficiently high to indulge in it.
>
Back in the Tridentine days, most laity in the RCC didn't take communion at Mass
(unworthiness due to being in a state of sin). It was common for the priest and
server to be the only communicants in a church full of people. Solemn Benediction
was the next-best thing to receiving communion--I forget exactly what the indulgence
is for attending a Benediction service, but it was supposed to take time off your
purgatory sentence.
There are ECUSA churches which have Benediction; a number of cathedrals have it
occasionally, and super-high places like St Paul's K Street in DC will have it as
well. And of course, there are a number of continuing Anglican bodies that are
old-style Anglo-Cat enough to do that sort of thing.
I'm not particularly convinced by Benediction either. It seems rather beside the
point to go waving Jesus around over everyone's head; the point of the sacrament is
that it be consumed by the faithful, not fetishized.
--
Matthew Weber
Curatorial Assistant
Music Library
University of California, Berkeley
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that
which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace,
and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _Ecclesiastes; or, The Preacher_ 3:1-8
Priscilla H Ballou
>Priscilla H Ballou responded to my earlier post:
>>Especially,
>>>whole 'services' where the sacrament
>>-- one host --
>>> was taken out and paraded about
>>in a monstrance
>>> then
>>>returned to the tabernacle without there even being a eucharist service.
>>AKA "Benediction."
>>It's truly a wierd devotion I had a very hard time understanding when I
>>became RC 24 years ago. I think I understand the emotional draw of it,
>At some level I think I can, also. Even with without a sojourn into the RC
>world. I found myself about two years ago on a street in a small German town
>where they were celebrating a religious feast with a parade through the town of
>the host in a Monstrance. It was interesting to watch. But, I had to do some
>real soul searching as to how to respond. Selecting a "posture" that at one
>time maintained proper reverence for the Real Presence, without seemingly given
>approval to their way of handling it. My Anglican upbringing being what it is.
>I chose to find a different street to walk on.
I think people often need something to focus on in order to engage in
certain types of prayer. If one believes that the wafer of bread really
is the Body of Christ, and that's the closest you've got to having Jesus
there with you to focus on, then it makes sense to me that many people
would find the experience of Benediction to be very powerful. And I can
see the appeal of using the host as a stand-in for the person in a
procession.
I think if I were on that street I would stand quietly out of respect for
the faith of the people who find the reserved host to be a helpful focal point
for their worship, just as I would stand quietly out of respect for any
other expression of religion in which I don't participate.
Priscilla
--
"The question is whether the Bible is primarily a book of laws
to you and you need divine permission for all and everything you
do, or a charter of God's love with love as the summary of God's
will, and freedom to find out what that means in a changing world,
and forgiveness for those who honestly try to find out but err."
- Andreas Höfeld in alt.religion.christian.episcopal