Catholics offer to mediate over Kosovo
Brid
15 March 2008
Serbia
Catholics offer to mediate over Kosovo
Jonathan Luxmoore
The head of Serbia's Catholic Church has said Catholics can help
mediate between Serbs and Albanians in an effort to settle disputes
over the newly independent republic of Kosovo, writes Jonathan
Luxmoore.
"Our Church has always sought good relations between Albanians and
Serbs, and between Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, as well as
dialogue between Christians of different denominations and between
faiths," said Archbishop Stanislav Hocevar of Belgrade, president of
Serbia's Sts Cyril and Methodius Bishops' Conference.
The Slovene-born church leader was speaking as a local Serbian
Orthodox bishop instructed followers to boycott Kosovo's institutions
and avoid co-operating with the European Union's mission, amid
continuing tensions over the country's 17 February declaration of
independence.
Speaking in Poland, Archbishop Hocevar said that Kosovo had a "special
significance" for Serbs, as the place of origin of Serbian Orthodoxy
and site of many important churches and monasteries. However, it
should also be remembered, Archbishop Hocevar added, that the mostly
Muslim Albanian population had been growing rapidly for decades, and
that many Serbs had long since withdrawn under pressure, along with
their Orthodox bishops.
jmd
>
> Church in the World
> 15 March 2008
>
> Serbia
>
> Catholics offer to mediate over Kosovo
when you know all the wrongs and viles that the roman-catholics have done in Kosovo, at the same level as muslims, killing and plundering, and I speak of
21st century kosovo.. when you read back what the roman-catholic "bishop" (fake orders, as heretic) of kosovo has written black on white that it was
justified to destroy the Orthodox churches "because they are political churches"!!
Byzantines used to say "better the turban of the sultan than the mitre of the pope" - today the Serbians will certainly say "better dying with Christ than living
with satan and his servants"
++
jmd wrote:
Go ahead, post it here. Only thing I know about RCs in Kosovo is that
the so-called "Croatian" Roman Catholic community (whihc was actually
mixed Albanian, Vlach and Croatian) that had lived there for centuries
gathered around the church of the miracle working icon of the Virgin
Leskavica (have the look that up - may have village wrong. Yep, looked
it up. It is allso the site of a neolithic mother goddess terra cotta
figures cache, aka "sow goddess") had to leave in the last conflict when
the Serbs started ridding the area of minorities on trains ane etc. The
community made a decision and moved. Worth looking up to see whether
the community is still intact.
Not finding anything under Bogorodica Leskavica or other alternate
transliteration spellings
>
>
>
Steve Hayes
>Church in the World
>15 March 2008
>
>Serbia
>
>Catholics offer to mediate over Kosovo
>
>Jonathan Luxmoore
>
>The head of Serbia's Catholic Church has said Catholics can help
>mediate between Serbs and Albanians in an effort to settle disputes
>over the newly independent republic of Kosovo, writes Jonathan
>Luxmoore.
>
>"Our Church has always sought good relations between Albanians and
>Serbs, and between Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, as well as
>dialogue between Christians of different denominations and between
>faiths," said Archbishop Stanislav Hocevar of Belgrade, president of
>Serbia's Sts Cyril and Methodius Bishops' Conference.
That's a bit ironic, considering the role that the Roman Catholic Church
played in provoking the Wars of the Yugoslav Succession, which started nearly
20 years ago, and have been continuing ever since, with huge amounts of
bloodshed and continuing violence.
Source: Huntington 1998:282.
"The breakup of Yugoslavia began in 1991 when Slovenia and Croatia moved
toward independence and pleaded with Western European powers for support. The
response of the West was defined by Germany, and the response of Germany was
in large part defined by the Catholic connection. The Bonn government came
under pressure to act from the German Catholic hierarchy, its coalition
partner the Christian Social Union Party in Bavaria, and the _Frankfurter
Allgemeine Zeitung_ and other media. The Bavarian media, in particular, played
a crucial role in developing German public sentiment for recognition.
'Bavarian TV', Flora Lewis noted, 'much weighed upon by the very conservative
Bavarian government and the strong, assertive Bavarian Catholic Church which
had close connections with the church in Croatia, provided the television
reports for all of Germany when the war [with the Serbs] began in earnest. The
coverage was very one-sided'... Germany pressured the European Union to
recognise the independence of Slovenia and Croatia, and then, having secured
that, pushed forward on its own to recognize them before the Union did in
December 1991.
Austria and Italy promptly moved to recognize the two new states (1991:
Slovenia and Croatia, after German recognition and pressure), and very
quickly other Western countries, including the United States, followed. The
Vatican also played a central role. The Pope declared Croatia to be the
"rampart of Christianity," and rushed to extend diplomatic recognition to the
two states before the European Union did. The Vatican thus became a partisan
in the conflict, which had its consequences in 1994 when the Pope planned
visits to the three republics. Opposition by the Serbian Orthodox Church
prevented his going to Belgrade, and Serb unwillingness to guarantee his
security led to the cancellation of his visit to Sarajevo. He did go to
Zagreb, however, where he honoured Cardinal Alojzieje Stepinac, who was
associated with the fascist Croatian regime in World War II that persecuted
and slaughtered Serbs, Gypsies and Jews."
From Samuel Huntington's "The clash of civilizations and the remaking of the
world order".
And what is happening in Kosovo is simply the next step.
The "Huntington thesis" is that in the post-Cold War world conflicts would not
be between ideologies, as the Cold War was, but between civilizations, of
which he named 9:
Western
Orthodox
Muslim
Sinic
Hindu
Buddhist
African
Latin American
Japanese
he said that these conflicts would take place on the "fault lines" where
civilizations meet, and likened them to the earth's tectonic plates.
And events have largely proved him right.
Conflict in Tibet: Sinic-Buddhist
Conflict in Yugoslavia: Western - Orthodox - Muslim
Caucasian conflicts: Orthodox - Muslim
Sudan conflicts: Muslim - Christian - African
Intra-Anglican conflicts: African - Western
I don't say his thesis was absolutely spot on, but events seem to be playing
out roughly as he predicted.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
jmd
>
> jmd wrote:
>
> >Brid wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Church in the World
> >>15 March 2008
> >>
> >>Serbia
> >>
> >>Catholics offer to mediate over Kosovo
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >when you know all the wrongs and viles that the roman-catholics have done in Kosovo, at the same level as muslims, killing and plundering, and I
speak of
> >21st century kosovo.. when you read back what the roman-catholic "bishop" (fake orders, as heretic) of kosovo has written black on white that it
was
> >justified to destroy the Orthodox churches "because they are political churches"!!
> >Byzantines used to say "better the turban of the sultan than the mitre of the pope" - today the Serbians will certainly say "better dying with Christ
than living
> >with satan and his servants"
> >
> >
>
> Go ahead, post it here. Only thing I know about RCs in Kosovo is that
I have only the book in French, translated from Serbian, and it is _extremely_ precise, giving the full data's over victims, who, where, when, and if the
body has been uncovered or not. Shows also that _numerous_ bodies of Serbian victims have simply been placed by Albanese muslims into their own
cimeteries or in mass graves into they dipped few of their own, to make us believe to mass murders of Albanese by Serbians. They give name, date,
data's of all reports adressed to UN / Nato authorities, without reaction, and the way the UN / Nato is turning things away, qualifying crimes of "private
murder" when less than 10 deads happens in a same time and place, refusing to admit terrorism, and worse, refusing to defend Serbians when mobs of
Albanese are openly attacking them. Names and pictures of old women and young children with throat cutted in bed or in restaurant, burned alive
people, all.
Important remarks in English & picture below this quote
===================
"Memorandum sur le Kosovo et la Metochie," de l'assemblée des évêques de l'Église Orthodoxe de Serbie, Paris, 2004, un livre capital à acquérir.
http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/12/00/80/81/115_110.jpg
http://www.egliseorthodoxeserbe.org/fr/kosovo/memorandum.php
"Une raison-clé de cette absence d'activité de la KFOR et de la MINUK tenait non seulement à leur impréparation à cette situation sur le terrain, mais
avant tout à leur volonté ferme d'éviter à tout prix un conflit armé avec les Albanais eux-mêmes. La KFOR n'a jamais établi un contrôle effectif des
frontières avec l'Albanie et la Macédoine, ce qui a permis l'expansion de la contrebande, de la prostitution, du trafic de drogue et des armes.
Dans cette situation nouvelle, le peuple serbe se retrouvait sans direction, car les hauts fonctionnaires du régime de Milosevic avaient été parmi les
premiers à abandonner leurs compatriotes. Seule, au milieu de conditions très difficiles, l'Église fonctionnait effectivement, essayant, par l'intermédiaire des
paroisses et des monastères, de rassembler la population et de l'encourager à rester dans ses foyers en dépit de ces circonstances si difficiles. Ce n'est
qu'à l'automne 1999 que s'est manifesté un certain engagement du Comité pour le Kosovo et la Métochie de Belgrade, qui a joué, jusqu'au départ de
Milosevic du pouvoir, un rôle globalement très négatif pour la Province, lançant de fausses promesses à la population et restaurant l'influence des vieilles
structures politiques. Le rôle de ce Comité s'est même réduit à la fin à la vente de certificats de confirmation de la nationalité yougoslave et de la
délivrance de passeports à des Albanais du Kosovo. Ce n'est qu'après le changement de pouvoir en Serbie (le 5 octobre 2000) que s'est constitué le
Centre de Coordination du gouvernement de Serbie, dirigé par Nebojsa Covié, qui sera à l'origine de toute une série d'activités destinées à normaliser tant
bien que mal la vie dans les enclaves serbes du Kosovo et de la Métochie.
Au cours de l'été 1999, la répression sur ce qui restait de la population serbe s'est trouvée accrue, en particulier dans la région du Pomoravlje du Kosovo.
Assassinats, enlèvements, attaques des maisons individuelles et menaces de toutes sortes sont devenus un fait quotidien à Gnjilane et à Vitina, où les
Serbes qui y étaient restés vivaient encore aux côtés des Albanais. A l'issue de toute une série d'agressions, un nombre significatif de Serbes décida de
quitter Vitina le 19 juillet 1999. Ce jour-là, des extrémistes albanais jetèrent une bombe sur les Serbes à proximité de l'église orthodoxe de Vitina, ce qui
fit deux blessés.
Ce même jour, dans un autre secteur, en Métochie, le hiéromoine Stéphane Purié, chargé du service liturgique dans la dépendance du Patriarcat de Pec à
Budisavci, fut enlevé en compagnie d'un instituteur serbe par des extrémistes albanais de confession catholique-romaine. Aucun renseignement fiable n'a
pu être obtenu à ce jour à leur propos, bien que le moine David Perovic, qui séjournait à l'époque au Patriarcat de Pec, ait été informé par des Albanais
que le hiéromoine Stéphane avait été amené, après sa capture, dans la région d'Istok ou à Istok même, où il aurait été torturé et maltraité par des
Albanais avant d'être égorgé et jeté dans un puits à Istok, en compagnie d'autres Serbes qui venaient d'être tués. En dépit de tous les efforts pour
retrouver la trace du hiéromoine Stéphane et d'autres Serbes, kidnappés dans cette région par des extrémistes albanais, ni le diocèse de Raska-Prizren ni
le Patriarcat n'ont, jusqu'à aujourd'hui, rien appris concernant le destin du hiéromoine Stéphane.
Les nouvelles d'enlèvements de Serbes et de Roms arrivaient quotidiennement, de sorte que le diocèse installé à Gracanica commença dès les premiers
jours à tenir à jour les listes des personnes disparues, qui étaient systématiquement adressées aux représentants de la MINUK et de la KFOR, en les
appelant constamment à entreprendre quelque chose pour les retrouver et les libérer. De diverses sources arrivaient des nouvelles de personnes
enlevées, qui, quand elles n'étaient pas tuées aussitôt, étaient conduites dans des centres pénitentiaires de l'UCK, dirigés par des membres de l'UCK
officiellement dissoute, mais en fait jamais dispersée. De telles informations n'étaient jamais officiellement confirmées, mais non plus totalement démenties.
Quant à la localisation de ces camps, la KFOR se contentait d'y répondre à l'avance par des démentis. Comme dans d'autres secteurs de la Province, les
principaux organisateurs des enlèvements et des tortures des Serbes étaient les chefs locaux de l'UCK [...]"
memorandum p.76-77
http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/12/00/80/81/crimen10.jpg
"On note une évolution semblable en ce qui concerne le nombre d'immeubles détruits, en particulier d'églises et de monastères, car au cours de 2000,
quoiqu'avec moins d'intensité, on a continué à détruire des églises et à ravager les cimetières, de sorte que le nombre de Sanctuaires détruits a
largement dépassé le chiffre de 100. Il reste toutefois à établir, par des recherches détaillées et la mise en évidence des dommages subis, le nombre
exact d'églises détruites. Jusqu'à aujourd'hui, on a pu déterminer qu'il y a eu 112 Sanctuaires détruits et profanés. Car il faut savoir que l'Église orthodoxe
serbe ne dispose pas, jusqu'à aujourd'hui, d'un accès aux nombreuses églises situées dans des localités à majorité albanaise, puisque la KFOR évite de
donner des assurances permettant des visites techniques et l'examen approprié de toutes les églises et sanctuaires considérés.
On a souvent répété la déclaration de l'évêque Artemije affirmant que même les églises qui ont survécu à 500 ans de joug turc, n'ont pu survivre à dix-
huit mois de paix internationale! Bien que la KFOR ait mis en place dès août 1999 une protection active de plusieurs églises et monastères, les Albanais ont
mis à profit tout moment d'inattention ou de négligeance pour détruire des sanctuaires serbes, faisant ainsi clairement savoir aux Serbes qu'il n'y a pas de
place pour eux aux côtés des Albanais au Kosovo et en Métochie, et qu'il ne peut pas y en avoir.
C'est ainsi que, malgré la présence de la KFOR et en dépit de sa protection, on a détruit les églises à Pomazatin, à Banjska près de Vucitrn et quelques
autres. La destruction des églises et monastères orthodoxes serbes et la dévastation des cimetières et des monuments culturels font partie d'une
stratégie albanaise plus large, dont le but est de modifier non seulement la situation démographique, mais l'identité culturelle et historique de la Province.
Simultanément, la nouvelle science historique albanaise ainsi que le système d'enseignement correspondant, imposent une pseudo-identité à certains
grands sanctuaires serbes, tels que Decani et le Patriarcat de Pec.
Dans cette entreprise, un rôle déshonorant est joué par certains groupes catholiques, notamment parmi les Albanais eux-mêmes, qui affirment que les
Serbes "ont occupé" les soi-disant églises catholiques albanaises qui auraient été bâties par des monarques illyriens et albanais (!?). Une telle affirmation a
été soutenue à plusieurs reprises devant des représentants internationaux par le prêtre catholique don San Zefi et une telle pseudo-instruction est
enseignée aux élèves albanais dans la Province. L'évêque catholique de Prizren, Mgr Marco Sopi, a, dans un entretien accordé à propos du Kosovo et
publié en 2001 par Caritas-Vincenza, justifié ouvertement la destruction d'églises orthodoxes serbes construites après la guerre, sous le prétexte qu'il
s'agissait d'églises "politiques." Dans la même interview, l'évêque Sopi a proféré une contre-vérité en soutenant que le siège de l'Église Orthodoxe serbe
n'a été transféré au Kosovo et en Métochie qu'au XIX ème siècle, après le congrès de Berlin, à l'évidence dans le but de tromper l'opinion. En dépit des
demandes du diocèse de Raska-Prizren ainsi que des représentants de l'organisation américaine "Conférence des religions mondiales pour la paix" de New
York, qui est active dans le dialogue entre les religions, l'évêque Sopi n'a jamais voulu revenir sur ses affirmations. Dans cette entreprise malhonnête de
capture de l'histoire et de la culture d'autrui, les musulmans et les catholiques albanais se présentent unis, alors que la jeune génération des Albanais du
Kosovo croit fermement que le Patriarcat de Pec, Decani, Gracanica et d'autres sanctuaires orthodoxes serbes ont été construits par des individus
dénommés Gai, Prend, Agron et d'autres figures obscures et imaginaires de la nouvelle "histoire kosovare." Ajoutons que les terroristes albanais ont essayé
à plusieurs reprises d'atteindre avec des grenades les monastères de Decani (2 fois) et le Patriarcat de Pec.
http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/12/00/80/81/omiros10.jpg
La tragédie des Serbes du Kosovo et de la Métochie est visible à chaque pas, mais elle est particulièrement notable à Pristina, où la population serbe
atteignait 40.000 habitants avant la guerre, mais où ne subsistaient plus à la mi-2000, que 200 à 300 personnes, qui continuent pour la plupart à vivre
dans un immeuble résidentiel (YU Programme) entouré de fils de fer barbelé, sous la protection des gardes de la KFOR en armes. Il est heureux de
pouvoir noter que la vieille église paroissiale de Saint Nicolas à Prigtina est restée active tout le temps, avec son prêtre, l'archiprêtre Miroslav Popadic qui a
souvent risqué sa vie en se rendant chez les fidèles à Prigtina et dans les environs. Mais, comme on le verra plus tard, cette église et son prêtre sont la
cible d'attaques de plus en plus fréquentes d'Albanais en colère. Le nombre d'habitants à Gnjilane et à Orahovac s'est sensiblement réduit au cours de
2000, tombant au début de 2001 à 400 à Gnjilane (contre 12.000 avant la guerre) et à 450 à Orahovac. C'est ainsi qu'à la veille de la guerre le petit
village de Gorazdevac, avec le retour d'un certain nombre de réfugiés, devint pratiquement le centre démographique le plus important de Métochie, où
vivent maintenant environ 1000 habitants. A Pec, il ne subsiste plus de Serbes, alors que le nombre de Serbes à Prizren est tombé au-dessous de 200,
avant de se réduire à 68 personnes, essentiellement âgées. A Djakovica, 6 vieilles Serbes continuent à végéter."
memorandum p.87-88
===================
US-led UN/Nato have never admitted the numerous "man huntings" for racial & religious motives done against the legitimate population of Kosovo, the
Serbians. It is simply astonishing to go across the lists of victims the Kosovo & Bosniac dioceses of the Church of Serbia are giving out. Unlike what
happened under communist rule, here it is clearly a genocide. And worse, happening with the US orders to let it be done. Because the US have their
military base they want to keep at any cost in the region. A military camp the US installed on the ground of a sovereign country, taking advantage of the
UN resolution 1299 that kept the national forces of Serbia away from that part of Serbia! What would Americans say if tomorow Mexico decided to install
Mexican military camps in south California? Same here, the Serbians are in full legitimity to revolt against the military occupation of US and the stupid
Europeans following them.
please, look this picture (from the book and also available on kosovo.net)
http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/12/00/80/81/kos010.jpg
what do you see?
a. the victims have all received a bullet in the head (at least one)
b. they are all civilians
c. the victim on the right of the picture has his hands tied with a rope. It is an execution.
They are numerous cases like this, but the USA want to have their military base in the region, cos' the Western European people, unlike their
governements, refuses more and more the military occupation of part of their countries by US forces under pretext of protection - against what?!
So the US govt', eager to remain in the region with a military force for reasons you, American citizens, should better ask them.., that US govt' violates
sovereignity of Serbia, buy corrupt muslim and communists leaders (pleonasm, sorry) from surrounding countries, and creates more and more damages,
death, and hatred in the region. I repeat, this is all satanic.
jmd
>
>
> Source: Huntington 1998:282.
indeed an interesting thesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations
interesting to note that the ultra-catholic Spain is almost always perfectly inline with the protestant USA
only exception with Kosovo, due to Basque & Catalunia and so on... otherwise, good little soldiers
interesting to note the amount of times that vatican & washington are inline for the same purposes against the Church and countries where it still has
majority : Ukrainia and the pretended "orange revolution," Georgia and the numerous little revolutions, Serbia, Greece (both vatican & US are on the side of
Turkey)...
jmd
>
> Church in the World
> 15 March 2008
>
with highly shoking pictures of victims of the Albanese - Serbs, Roms.... - and all relevant links. Included deacon Steven's good article of the day, and
geopolitician analytics. Striking.
http://stmaterne.blogspot.com/2008/03/balkans-premires-explosions-de.html
=
http://tinyurl.com/3aq2x6
Brid
> That's a bit ironic, considering the role that the Roman Catholic Church
> played in provoking the Wars of the Yugoslav Succession, which started nearly
> 20 years ago, and have been continuing ever since, with huge amounts of
> bloodshed and continuing violence.
>
> Source: Huntington 1998:282.
An interesting analysis, Deacon Stephen. I couldn't take the Catholic
offer to play the honest broker seriously either. I can't remember now
where I read it, but I once saw a quote to the effect that 'Europe
ends where Orthodoxy begins', attributed to, I think, an Austrian
politician.
Steve Hayes
That I can easily believe.
I remember reading, shortly before the breakup of Yugoslavia, op-ed pieces in
the newspapers here making such propaganda -- the Serbs, they said, were
esentially Eastenr and Asiatic and Ottoman and barbaric, while the Croates
were European and civilized. We'd grown so accustomed to seeing similar
propaganda from the apartheid regime here that that kind of racist propaganda
stuck out like a sore thumb. It wasn't until layer that it transpired that the
Croatian nationalists had hired a US advertising firm to produce it for them.
When I first read Huntington's book I was pretty strongly prejudiced against
it, mainly because I first heard of it from an American missionary working in
Romania. He had gone there as a Protestant to convert the godless commies,
converted to Orthodoxy instead, and gone back to help the Orthodox Church. He
mentioned the book in some other connection, saying that Romanians were
extremely angry about it because it advocated giving half of Romania to
Hungary.
So when I read it I was prepared to read something like the Croat propaganda
that was sindicated to half the newspapers in the Western world and even made
it to South Africa, and was pleasantly surprised to find that it wasn't like
that at all, and actually made a very good case for the thesis I outlined in
my previous message.
What angered the Romanians was a map, showing the dividing line between the
"Western" and "Orthodox" civilizations, which ran through the middle of
Romania. It nowhere advocated giving any of Romania to Hungary, but the map
did show did show that in the past that part of Romania had been part of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Some people (mainly Muslims) have accused Huntington of actually *advocating*
and promoting a clash of civilisations. He doesn't, as far as I can see. He
just points out that it is there, and points out some of the things that cause
or exacerbate it.
For instance, when he said:
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or
values or religion (to which few members of other
civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in
applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this
fact; non-Westerners never do".
... which I thought was a pretty astute remark, and suicide bombing is one way
in which some non-Westerners are trying to play catch up.
I don't agree with everything Huntington says, and i think he got some things
wrong, but it does provide a useful way of explaining conflict in the
post-Cold War world. And if you can analyse the causes of conflict, it makes
it easier to devise strategies for reducing it or preventing it, and indicates
the kind of behaviour to avoid because it might exacerbate conflict.
Brid
>
> "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or
> values or religion (to which few members of other
> civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in
> applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this
> fact; non-Westerners never do".
>
> ... which I thought was a pretty astute remark, and suicide bombing is one way
> in which some non-Westerners are trying to play catch up.
Yes, that is indeed a pretty astute remark. We also got the anti-Serb
propaganda passed off as reputable journalism here too. The most
dishonest thing is that the west tried to portray itself as neutral
arbiter, but has clearly plumped for one side.
>
> I don't agree with everything Huntington says, and i think he got some things
> wrong, but it does provide a useful way of explaining conflict in the
> post-Cold War world. And if you can analyse the causes of conflict, it makes
> it easier to devise strategies for reducing it or preventing it, and indicates
> the kind of behaviour to avoid because it might exacerbate conflict.
It's interesting because the whole idea of a clash of civilizations is
anathema to the multiculturalist agenda which dominates our society. I
think I would be one of the last generation of schoolchildren in this
country to have been brought up with GK Chesterton and the Battle of
Lepanto. I'm glad you brought up the Huntington thesis, I managed to
track down and save a copy of his original paper on the subject.
Thanks again,
Brid
Steve Hayes
>On 18 Mar, 21:05, Steve Hayes <hayesm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or
>> values or religion (to which few members of other
>> civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in
>> applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this
>> fact; non-Westerners never do".
>>
>> ... which I thought was a pretty astute remark, and suicide bombing is one way
>> in which some non-Westerners are trying to play catch up.
>
>Yes, that is indeed a pretty astute remark. We also got the anti-Serb
>propaganda passed off as reputable journalism here too. The most
>dishonest thing is that the west tried to portray itself as neutral
>arbiter, but has clearly plumped for one side.
There were numerous opportunities for being neutral arbiter, but they were
thrown away, along with any bargaining chips the West might have had -- the
biggest being non recognition of independence -- of Crotatia, Slovenia, Bosnia
and so on, with with each recognition of indepndence, the slide into violence
speeded up.
>> I don't agree with everything Huntington says, and i think he got some things
>> wrong, but it does provide a useful way of explaining conflict in the
>> post-Cold War world. And if you can analyse the causes of conflict, it makes
>> it easier to devise strategies for reducing it or preventing it, and indicates
>> the kind of behaviour to avoid because it might exacerbate conflict.
>
>It's interesting because the whole idea of a clash of civilizations is
>anathema to the multiculturalist agenda which dominates our society. I
>think I would be one of the last generation of schoolchildren in this
>country to have been brought up with GK Chesterton and the Battle of
>Lepanto. I'm glad you brought up the Huntington thesis, I managed to
>track down and save a copy of his original paper on the subject.
Try to get hold of his book, much better than the paper.
The Black Monk
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT), Brid
>
>
> Don't forget that the Allied program of de-Nazification was not
> implemented in Austria after 1945 .This means the attitudes of WWII
> are still luring under the surface .Basically they secretly ,
> unreconstructed fascists . The same can be said about the Catholic
> right-wing in Bayern,Germany which forms the ideological bedrock of
> the German "Christian" Democratic Party .
That's an ironic claim, given that Catholic Bavaria was where the
Nazis consistently had the least support in the 1930's (and even
within Bavaria, Nazi support was greatest in Protestant enclaves and
in secular Munich city) .
All the stats are here:
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/rise(n)-1.htm
regards,
BM
>
> The right wing in the Vatican must also be mentioned . They are the
> same people that want Pope Pious XII to be canonized . He was their
> "darling" or poster-child .
>
> The allure of fascism still lurks in influential Roman Catholic
> circles -- they have learned nothing from history it seems.
>
> As Churchill said : History repeats itself because of fools that
> refuse to learn from it .
>
> Peter
jmd
>
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:06:31 -0700 (PDT), Brid
> <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> The Serbs need to get a lobby in Washington D.C. and a P.R. firm to
> fix up their image . The average westerner doesn't know of their
> plight -- only what the Muslims et al. want to spin off as the truth.
>
> Peter
exactly
Slovenians and Croatians used PR for that purpose
now it's very trendy to go their on hollidays
almost no-one in Western Europe noticed the scandal at top of Slovenian govt', with the public acknowledgement that they had accepted corruption money
from Washington to recognize the "independant" Kosovo and, being in presidency of the EU for a few months, to put maximum presure on other EU
countries to accept that hold-up... a good PR for Serbia and Slovenians would better stop advertising for hollidays, cos' no-one here would go there..