Abp. Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept. 18
Z and ALTR
[06] New Archbishop of America Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept.
18
Athens, 27/8/1999 (ANA)
Newly elected Archbishop of America Dimitrios will be enthroned on Sept. 18
at a ceremony at the Patriarchate of Constantinople, located in the Fanar
district of Istanbul. Former Archbishop Iakovos will officiate at the
relevant event.
Dimitrios stressed that he will attempt to instill a climate of cooperation,
unity and peace among the Greek Orthodox faithful of America.
Regarding his relationship with former Archbishop Spyridon, he termed it
excellent.
Athens News Agency
Christo J. Balouris
Archdiocesan Cathedral in Manhattan. I wonder why the change.
Chris Balouris
Z and ALTR wrote in message
<19990827194236...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
Harry Coin
heirarchs, too.
Z and ALTR
>Date: Fri, 27 August 1999 08:56 PM EDT
>
>It will be in New York on the 18th, and a liturgy the next day with all the
>heirarchs, too.
>
>
>
Just checked with my parish office. You're right. Greek news service was
behind the times and not up-to-date!!!
Yiasas
Zoe
nick cobb
left over from the Byzantine Emperor and its time to get rid of it along with
mitres or crowns.
Anyway, it should be a big "shin-dig" with possibly even Gore and all sorts of
POLITICAL dignitaries at the Waldorff. NOW, the rich Greeks will try and rebuild
the power base, the "Greek Lobby," which they lost in Washington. With +
Dimitrios, will we see a move toward a united GOA and a united Orthodox Church
in America, or more Greek Nationalism and secularism?????
Bill Taylor
>And now, with his "ENTHRONEMENT(?)"--Is he a king or ruler? This terminology is
>left over from the Byzantine Emperor and its time to get rid of it along with
>mitres or crowns.
>
>Anyway, it should be a big "shin-dig" with possibly even Gore and all sorts of
>POLITICAL dignitaries at the Waldorff. NOW, the rich Greeks will try and rebuild
>the power base, the "Greek Lobby," which they lost in Washington. With +
>Dimitrios, will we see a move toward a united GOA and a united Orthodox Church
>in America, or more Greek Nationalism and secularism?????
>
This is a question I have been asking myself. Once all the noise has
died down and the emotion of the moment gives way to the everyday
running of the GOA.... then what??
Will it be more Big "G", little "o"??
Bill
GS
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> On 28 Aug 1999 15:33:53 PDT, nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote:
>
> > With +
> >Dimitrios, will we see a move toward a united GOA and a united Orthodox Church
> >in America, or more Greek Nationalism and secularism?????
> >
> I fervently hope for the latter.
And all of us here, I am sure, hope for the former. But, since you are not
Orthodox, your preference is not surprising
Alexander Arnakis
>
>This is a question I have been asking myself. Once all the noise has
>died down and the emotion of the moment gives way to the everyday
>running of the GOA.... then what??
>
>Will it be more Big "G", little "o"??
>
Alexander Arnakis
Atsaves
Greeks" who stuck with Archbishop Spyridon to the bitter end or the "rich
Greeks" who primarily funded the GOAL? The "rich Greeks" in the USA are well
known for being divided, petty and egotistical at times, which explains the
multiple Greek American secular organizations that can never somehow seem to
work together.
So as you can see, such blind categorizations fall short of the facts.
Lots of ordinary parishioners of the GOA are now questioning the "Greek Lobby"
and Big G little o stuff these days. Lots of them are very uncomfortable with
the involvement of the Greek Government in the selection of our new Archbishop,
as reported in many Greek newspapers in my area. Lots of them have lost trust
in the Patriarch of Constantinople and while certain GOAL members blindly
applaud the performance of our hierachs in the USA, the ordinary parishioner
understands that the hierarchs took their positions not to protect their
flocks, but to protect themselves. They are smarter than you think. Those who
attended our festival at my Parish in Chicago last week made it pretty clear
that Metropolitan Iakovos and his fellow Metropolitans need to come clean over
their actions and earn their trust as well. They allowed Archbishop Spyridon
to run roughshod in the beginning and remained silent instead of being
supportive when the laity fought back at the Clergy-Laity Congress they later
admitted was a "police state."
The ordinary parishioners are looking for someone to trust. If Archbishop
Demetrios gains their trust, he will have a peaceful ministry here in the U.S.
If he cannot, and if there is further interference in the form of
micromanagement of the GOA by the Phanar, the calls for autonomy or
autocephalous status will grow stronger and louder.
The "rich Greeks" have never controlled the thought processes of the ordinary
Greek Orthodox Christians in this country. They only pretend to. It is a
bitter truth that the "rich Greeks" who form Greek Lobby groups and Greek
secular organizations have never understood.
The best example is the Greek-American Independence Parade held in Chicago each
year. For years, one group ran it down Michigan Avenue (primarily) to sparse
crowds. This group is nicknamed the "millionaires club" by ordinary Greeks.
Then another group took it over by "uniting" the various Greek societies into
an "umbrella" organization controlled primarily by one, yes, you guessed it, a
Greek millionaire, who funds its activities. They took the parade and moved it
to Halsted Street on Sundays at 2:00 p.m. where even fewer participate and
attend to watch it.
What was impressive about GOAL is that they managed to tap into the true power
base of the GOA, the ordinary parishioners who supported them out of concern
over their Church. The ordinary parishioners do not feel that the battle is
over now, they are raising other questions about our future, including the
Ephraim Monasteries and reports of odd little things going on with them. Trust
needs to be earned, not taken for granted.
Time will tell now as to what happens in the future. The big galas are a
throwback to an earlier era and I don't see them happening too often in the
future.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<<Subject: Re: Abp. Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept. 18
From: nick cobb ni...@cris.com
Date: Sat, 28 August 1999 06:33 PM EDT
Message-id: <37C86565...@cris.com>
And now, with his "ENTHRONEMENT(?)"--Is he a king or ruler? This terminology is
left over from the Byzantine Emperor and its time to get rid of it along with
mitres or crowns.
Anyway, it should be a big "shin-dig" with possibly even Gore and all sorts of
POLITICAL dignitaries at the Waldorff. NOW, the rich Greeks will try and
rebuild
the power base, the "Greek Lobby," which they lost in Washington. With +
Dimitrios, will we see a move toward a united GOA and a united Orthodox Church
in America, or more Greek Nationalism and secularism?????
Z and ALTR wrote:
Alexander Arnakis
>
>Alexander Arnakis wrote:
>
>> nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote:
>>
>> > With +
>> >Dimitrios, will we see a move toward a united GOA and a united Orthodox Church
>> >in America, or more Greek Nationalism and secularism?????
>> >
>
>Orthodox, your preference is not surprising
I am a secular Greek nationalist. I see the Church as the focus of the
Greek ethnos in America. Whatever serves the cause of the Greek ethnos
is good, and whatever detracts from it is bad. Orthodox religiousity
is beside the point.
christopher
Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net says...
>
> I am a secular Greek nationalist. I see the Church as the focus of the
> Greek ethnos in America. Whatever serves the cause of the Greek ethnos
> is good, and whatever detracts from it is bad. Orthodox religiousity
> is beside the point.
Hellenic nationalism has absolutely no place in American society.
Alexander Arnakis
U.S. law recognizes dual citizenship. Since the U.S. and Greece have
always been, and will continue to be, allies, there is no conflict.
But besides that, America is a diverse society, and the "melting pot"
only goes so far. Greek culture is the light of the world. The
Orthodox religion is only a part of that.
Atsaves
I am a secular Greek nationalist. I see the Church as the focus of the
Greek ethnos in America. Whatever serves the cause of the Greek ethnos
is good, and whatever detracts from it is bad. Orthodox religiousity
is beside the point. >>
Then why not name the Church buildings after Papandreau, Kolokotronis, King
Constantine, Plato, Zeus and Hera among others? Orthodox religiousity besides
the point in a Church?
If you are trying to pick a fight or fan a debate, at least try not to go THAT
far out on a limb!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
GS
I see no problem with hellenic nationalism in clubs or cultural groups.
This keeps the language and customs alive.
But nationalism itself and Orthodoxy are incompatible. So the problem comes
with what our Louis calls big G little o in the church. The same is the
case with Russian nationalism, Ukranian nationalism, Serbian nationalism,
etc.etc. in place of Christianity.
christopher wrote:
> In article <37cbfc31...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net says...
> >
> > I am a secular Greek nationalist. I see the Church as the focus of the
> > Greek ethnos in America. Whatever serves the cause of the Greek ethnos
> > is good, and whatever detracts from it is bad. Orthodox religiousity
> > is beside the point.
>
Alexander Arnakis
>I see no problem with hellenic nationalism in clubs or cultural groups.
>This keeps the language and customs alive.
>
Having been deeply involved in Greek clubs and cultural groups, I can
tell you that they don't have very broad participation within the
Greek-American community. For better or worse, it is the Church that
is the focus of the community. This is the only realistic way to keep
the language and customs alive.
>But nationalism itself and Orthodoxy are incompatible.
Wrong! In the days of the Ottoman oppression, it was the Church that
kept the idea of a Greek Nation alive. Remember, it was the Bishop of
Old Patras Germanos who declared Greek Independence on Annunciation
Day 1821. Likewise, the Church played a similar role in the national
aspirations of the Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.
> So the problem comes
>with what our Louis calls big G little o in the church. The same is the
>case with Russian nationalism, Ukranian nationalism, Serbian nationalism,
>etc.etc. in place of Christianity.
>
Not "in place of" -- nationalism is a vehicle for Christianity, and
vice versa, especially when your antagonist is the infidel Moslem.
Alexander Arnakis
>Then why not name the Church buildings after Papandreau, Kolokotronis, King
>Constantine, Plato, Zeus and Hera among others? Orthodox religiousity besides
>the point in a Church?
>
>If you are trying to pick a fight or fan a debate, at least try not to go THAT
>far out on a limb!
>
In this post, I am expressing my personal opinions, from the point of
view of one who considers himself a Greek patriot, but who is not
particularly religious, at least in a conventional sense.
Face facts, the Church is the focus of community life among the
Greek-Americans. Many who attend are, like me, not religious but get
involved mainly to maintain their Greek roots. To these people, the
Orthodox religiousity is merely coincidental. Lip service is paid to
it, so that the children can attend Greek school. This is cynical, but
it's the truth.
Don't reduce the issue to the absurd by suggesting that church
buildings be named after Papandreou, etc. After all, there are those
of us who were not supporters of Papandreou (or King Constantine
either, for that matter). <G>
Now, your idea of building a Temple of the Olympian Zeus in Chicago
has merit. Think we can start a building fund? <G>
GS
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
Alex,
You missed two points:
1. nationalism and cultural heritage are two different fish
2. The big G , little g argument.
3. Nationalism and Orthodox literally ARE INcompatible, canonically.
Nick Theodorakis
Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Alexander Arnakis) wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:39:43 -0400, GS <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >I see no problem with hellenic nationalism in clubs or cultural groups.
> >This keeps the language and customs alive.
> >
> Having been deeply involved in Greek clubs and cultural groups, I can
> tell you that they don't have very broad participation within the
> Greek-American community. For better or worse, it is the Church that
> is the focus of the community. This is the only realistic way to keep
> the language and customs alive.
>
> >But nationalism itself and Orthodoxy are incompatible.
>
> Wrong! In the days of the Ottoman oppression, it was the Church that
> kept the idea of a Greek Nation alive. Remember, it was the Bishop of
> Old Patras Germanos who declared Greek Independence on Annunciation
> Day 1821. Likewise, the Church played a similar role in the national
> aspirations of the Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.
>
> > So the problem comes
> >with what our Louis calls big G little o in the church. The same is the
> >case with Russian nationalism, Ukranian nationalism, Serbian nationalism,
> >etc.etc. in place of Christianity.
> >
> Not "in place of" -- nationalism is a vehicle for Christianity, and
> vice versa, especially when your antagonist is the infidel Moslem.
>
Here is a repost of a speech I quoted a year or two ago.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
'We must also decry the simplification of Byzantium as "Greek". The
Roman Empire was ecumenical. Whether Latin of Greek predominated
in Constantinople, ours was a multiethnic empire, with the church
willing to use the local language to convey the world of God. Thus were
the Slavs and others converted to Orthodoxy and brought into the orbit
of our Roman civilization.
...
Entire libraries have been written about nationalism. But a curious
element of most nationalisms is the way they combine distant memories
with new ideas. In art, this combination of old and new is called
"post-modernism", and state-builders are certainly "artists" in the most
literal sense of the world. The genesis of nationalism involves
selective memory, and in the case of the Orthodox countries, nationalism
has favoured past periods of ethnic glory over the combined splendour of
Orthodox civilization.
We lament this imbalance. Without the church, we of the Orthodox
tradition can never have more than a lop-sided, skewed, and incomplete
view of who we are.
The emphasis on national or ethnic heritage has had the effect of
fragmenting the family of our ecumenical civilizations - from Russians
and Georgians to Albanians and Romanians. This is particularly
disturbing because nationalism is a phenomenon, with disastrous
consequences.
The holy Orthodox Church searched long for a language with which to
address nationalism, amid the strife and havoc this new idiology created
in the Orthodox lands of Eastern Europe and for much of the 19th
century. In 1972, the Holy Synod issued a definitive condemnation of
the sin of phyletism, saying, "We renounce, censure and condemn
racism, that is, racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds, and
dissensions within the Church of Christ..."
Today, more than a century later, nationalism remains the bane of our
ecumenical church. It is time for us to begin to reconcile nationalism
and ecumenism. They are not mutually exclusive...'
from a speech by His Holiness Pat. +BARTHOLEMEW, Archbishop of
Constantinople and Ecumenical Patriarch
source: http://www.patriarchate.org/SPEECHES/1993/Mnymosene-Nov12.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
In XC,
Nick
--
_______________________________________________
| Nick Theodorakis |
| nicholas_t...@urmc.rochester.edu |
| (previously theo...@gusun.georgetown.edu) |
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
(Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) on Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:32:05 GMT
we perused:
*+->Then why not name the Church buildings after Papandreau, Kolokotronis, King
You know why it is so hard to navigate in Athesn, right?
Every new grubmint, local and national, sets out to rename
the streets. So chances are, your map is out of date!
*+-Now, your idea of building a Temple of the Olympian Zeus in Chicago
It sickens me (and I think most Greek-Americans) to see the Greek left
say things like "Christianity is a Jewish plot to eliminate Greek
Glory. Greece was great only as a pagan country." (Besides, Greece
became great starting from when Socrates rebelled against pagan
oppression, indirectly setting the stage for Greek becoming the
vehicle for the propogation of Christianity.) Unfortunately this
thinking has currency, esp. among Greeks who have worked or studied in
Asia. But such thinking will only weaken the bonds between
Greek-Americans and greece.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[DQ2K: Make the Murky Clown Frown!]
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
Time? Admission? I deliberately didn't go to Spyridon's
enthronement, but I'd like to be at this one.
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
er.. the NY event.. not he EP one.. (Time? Admission?)
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
Greek-Americans promoted during the 1965-1980 period. Both the USA
and Greece were undergoing social unrest during those times and many
multiculturalist ideas were spread. Many people went back to Greece
and said "this is the American way". Well, it wasn't! In fact, I would
argue, that by the standards set by the USA Founding Fathers, most
countires of western Europe are not really democracies and most of
their populations still have no real idea about what democracy really
is. The USA Constitution is a unique balance of multi-dimensional
cross-sections of forces, making its ability to preserve stability and
democracy quite unique - while most other "democracies" under the UN's
false definitions of "democracy" have the seeds of their own
self-destruction. (However, many of the wonderful ideas of the USA
constitution do in fact come from the Byzantine Senate and Hippodrome,
plagiarised by Baldwin's "Crusaders" as the "Magna Carta")
Dual citisenship is something you apply for. The US
citisenship oath RENOUNCES prior citisenships. Dual citisenship
applies only to countries that have specific treaties with the USA for
this purpose.
I have no objection to Greeks having social organisations for
Greekness, but these have no place in the church. When my granfather
was killed by Greeks reds and my dad fought valiantly in the Grammos
battle against the reds, I am entitled to go to church and not be
confronted with representatives and allies of those war criminals
masquaerading as "dignitaries". We have tax laws in this country
which define protections for religions that are not provided to
cultural and political organisations. The reason Greeks end up seeking
the church as a common umbrella is because they find it so difficult
to agree on anything else they have in common. Ironically, the Greek
left and the USA left both tried to break this by encouraging old
calendarists during the 1980s.
Greece, under Metaxas, underwent a process of
self-definition. Resettled refugees and other groups spoke dialects
and even languages that were not understandable to other Greeks - and
by forbidding these, Metaxas succeeded in creating a unified society
in which today, many members of these various subgroups are so
intermarried as to be inseperable. In this, he not only imitated the
ways of the USA, but also the traditional "Greek Idea" or "Megali
Idea", that of "Universal Assimilative Citisenship" - the idea under
which the Russian and Byzantine Empires, as well as the USA, operated.
The London_Economist keeps wondering why the USA has an
affinity to religion which resembles more the Third World than Europe.
Secularity is more of a social disease in Europe than the USA. The
secularity of the Greek church only exists in the ghetto. By the time
Greek-Americans are here several generations, the only way you get the
kids to go to church is if they believe in the faith and not the
culture. I endeavored to learn Greek because I wanted to access the
church, not Greece. If you bring the kids into the faith, you have a
chance of keeping them Greek - but if you try to keep them Greek, they
will turn their backs on both the church and the culture. Ironically,
90% of Americans of Greek ancestry are not Orthodox and do not know
any Greek, precisely because their grandparents and greatgrandparents
were like you, this is, secular. [ cf
http://www.dorsai.org/~vjp2/ruminatn.htm#GRKNUMS ]
In <37dc1eda...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> by Alexander
Arnakis (Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) on Mon, 30 Aug 1999
06:09:35 GMT we perused:
*+->> I am a secular Greek nationalist. I see the Church as the focus of the
*+->> Greek ethnos in America. Whatever serves the cause of the Greek ethnos
...
*+-U.S. law recognizes dual citizenship. Since the U.S. and Greece have
*+-always been, and will continue to be, allies, there is no conflict.
...
*+-But besides that, America is a diverse society, and the "melting pot"
*+-only goes so far. Greek culture is the light of the world. The
*+-Orthodox religion is only a part of that.
nick cobb
assigned to North America. And yes, he has his throne or chair in his cathedral
in NY.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
> Time? Admission? I deliberately didn't go to Spyridon's
> enthronement, but I'd like to be at this one.
>
nick cobb
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
> er.. the NY event.. not he EP one.. (Time? Admission?)
>
JOH...@webtv.net
was worse than the French. And everyone knows what Americans think of
the French.
Second outdated Nationalism causes Orthodoxy a lot of grief and
embarassment.
So lets keep things clear.
JOH...@webtv.net
enthronment?
Is yes,how will they be treated.
lak...@my-deja.com
before he even approached American shores, presumably
because he was the patriarch's choice?
That same Patriarch who dared call +Iakovos' bluff and
accepted his rashly proffered resignation?
Now... That sickens me!
Lacon
In article <7qhit9$1u...@enews3.newsguy.com>,
vj...@smtp.dorsai.org (Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087
Bioengineer-Financier) wrote:
>
>
> Time? Admission? I deliberately didn't go to Spyridon's
> enthronement, but I'd like to be at this one.
>
> - = -
> Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+,
Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
> BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
> vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
> ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully
disclaimed.}---
> [DQ2K: Make the Murky Clown Frown!]
>
Alexander Arnakis
><snip>
>
> Dual citisenship is something you apply for. The US
>citisenship oath RENOUNCES prior citisenships. Dual citisenship
>applies only to countries that have specific treaties with the USA for
>this purpose.
>
You're totally wrong about this. You don't apply for dual citizenship;
it is something that arises because of operation of law. U.S. law
defines a U.S. citizen as someone who was born or naturalized in the
U.S. (or was born abroad of U.S. parents). Many other countries,
including Greece, define citizenship on the basis of ancestry.
Therefore, someone who was born in the U.S. of Greek citizen parents
would be a dual national at birth.
It is true that the U.S. naturalization oath includes a renunciation
of prior citizenship. However, in the case of Greeks, this is
ineffective because under Greek law one doesn't lose Greek citizenship
by a simple declaration of renunciation. It generally takes an Act by
the Greek Parliament to ratify such a renunciation.
The U.S. Courts, and the U.S. State Department, have recognized this
situation. In fact, there is quite a well-developed body of law
dealing with issues of dual citizenship.
Generally, treaties have nothing to do with it.
> I have no objection to Greeks having social organisations for
>Greekness, but these have no place in the church.
No, face the fact that the Church is the core of Greekness in America.
> When my granfather
>was killed by Greeks reds and my dad fought valiantly in the Grammos
>battle against the reds, I am entitled to go to church and not be
>confronted with representatives and allies of those war criminals
>masquaerading as "dignitaries".
Two points:
1. Would it make any difference if the representatives of Greece (who
may or may not make an appearance at your church) were in fact
anti-Communists who were on the same side as your ancestors? This was
in fact the case for many years. And even now, the Communists, after
being legalized, barely manage to get about 8% of the vote in Greece.
2. The Greek National Idea transcends parties and politics.
> We have tax laws in this country
>which define protections for religions that are not provided to
>cultural and political organisations.
This issue is far larger than tax laws. Anyway, cultural/educational
organizations have almost the same status under the tax laws as
churches, the main difference being that churches do not have to apply
for an exemption letter to have contributions to them be
tax-deductible. (Political organizations, of course, are another
matter, but we're not talking about that situation here.)
>The reason Greeks end up seeking
>the church as a common umbrella is because they find it so difficult
>to agree on anything else they have in common.
All the more reason for the Church to fulfill the role of promoting
Greek ethnic identity.
> Ironically, the Greek
>left and the USA left both tried to break this by encouraging old
>calendarists during the 1980s.
>
What?! I never heard this before, and I have been around Greek
circles for a long time. The Greek left is secular and would certainly
be opposed to Old Calendarists, and the U.S. left absolutely doesn't
give a damn about what goes on in the Orthodox Church. Back up your
assertion.
> Greece, under Metaxas, underwent a process of
>self-definition. Resettled refugees and other groups spoke dialects
>and even languages that were not understandable to other Greeks - and
>by forbidding these, Metaxas succeeded in creating a unified society
>in which today, many members of these various subgroups are so
>intermarried as to be inseperable. In this, he not only imitated the
>ways of the USA, but also the traditional "Greek Idea" or "Megali
>Idea", that of "Universal Assimilative Citisenship" - the idea under
>which the Russian and Byzantine Empires, as well as the USA, operated.
>
You misunderstand the "Megali Idea" completely. Metaxas was
diametrically opposed to the Venizelist Megali Idea -- the notion that
all Greek-populated lands should be part of Greece. I'm surprised at
you -- I thought you knew your Greek history better than that.
Greeks in general (at least in modern times) have never subscribed to
the notion that Greece should have universal assimilative citizenship.
They are not interested in absorbing heterogeneous ethnic groups.
> The London_Economist keeps wondering why the USA has an
>affinity to religion which resembles more the Third World than Europe.
>Secularity is more of a social disease in Europe than the USA.
Why is secularity a social disease? Your assumption is that
religiousity is the only healthy social condition. I would strongly
dispute that.
> The
>secularity of the Greek church only exists in the ghetto. By the time
>Greek-Americans are here several generations, the only way you get the
>kids to go to church is if they believe in the faith and not the
>culture.
If this is true, then the Greek ethnicity in America is doomed!
Because the Orthodox faith, per se, is not consonant with the secular
values kids learn in the larger American society. I contend that the
exact opposite approach is the proper one: attract the kids to Church
by emphasizing the Greek culture.
>I endeavored to learn Greek because I wanted to access the
>church, not Greece. If you bring the kids into the faith, you have a
>chance of keeping them Greek - but if you try to keep them Greek, they
>will turn their backs on both the church and the culture.
I think you are absolutely wrong on this. In the long term, the Greek
culture will have a stronger attraction than the Orthodox faith.
>Ironically,
>90% of Americans of Greek ancestry are not Orthodox and do not know
>any Greek, precisely because their grandparents and greatgrandparents
>were like you, this is, secular.
I would dispute your 90% figure. But if it is anywhere close to true,
that means that the religion is not attracting the younger generation.
I think that emphasizing Greek culture would be more attractive,
simply because although you can change your religious outlook, you
cannot change your ancestry. And now people are returning to their
roots throughout America.
Alexander Arnakis
The Ecumenical Patriarch is literally a hostage of the Turks.
Everything he says has to be considered to be spoken under duress. It
is the same as Ocalan, from prison and under sentence of death,
telling his Kurdish followers to lay down their arms.
The Patriarch's freedom of action and speech can never be restored
until he leaves Turkey.
GS
Spiridon.
Now that was thinking. Maybe only 95% of all American Orthodox own his
books
Galina
Bryan J. Maloney
Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Alexander Arnakis) wrote:
> No, face the fact that the Church is the core of Greekness in America.
If that is the case, then the Church has become a tool of Satan. If
"Greekness" is the purpose of the Church, then the Church has becomes
Satan's toy.
> If this is true, then the Greek ethnicity in America is doomed!
> Because the Orthodox faith, per se, is not consonant with the secular
> values kids learn in the larger American society. I contend that the
That is a good thing.
> exact opposite approach is the proper one: attract the kids to Church
> by emphasizing the Greek culture.
In other words, becoming the willing tool of Satan (a mockery of the
Church) is what you advocate.
Bryan J. Maloney
Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Alexander Arnakis) wrote:
> Face facts, the Church is the focus of community life among the
> Greek-Americans. Many who attend are, like me, not religious but get
> involved mainly to maintain their Greek roots. To these people, the
> Orthodox religiousity is merely coincidental. Lip service is paid to
> it, so that the children can attend Greek school. This is cynical, but
> it's the truth.
Face facts, many people commit murder, therefore we might as well make it legal.
Bryan J. Maloney
vj...@dorsai.org,vj...@compuserve.com,vj...@mcimail.com,vj...@csi.com wrote:
> Dual citisenship is something you apply for. The US
> citisenship oath RENOUNCES prior citisenships. Dual citisenship
> applies only to countries that have specific treaties with the USA for
> this purpose.
As I understand the matter, the USA actually does not even recognize dual
citizenship for adults sufficiently to officially "not" recognize it. One
is either a US citizen fully or one is not. The "second" citizenship is a
*nonentity* under US law. It is considered so utterly insignificant as to
not even merit being made illegal. Children born under mixed citizenship
circumstances have the option of declaring US citizenship at adulthood
without requiring naturallization.
Z and ALTR
>Date: Wed, 01 September 1999 01:03 AM EDT
>
>
>The 64 dollar question is will there be None Orthodox guests at his
>enthronment?
>Is yes,how will they be treated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Holy Trinity Cathedral (NYC) where the enthronement is to take place is not a
large church, therefore, seating is limited and is by invitation. VP Al Gore
and other dignitaries, both American and Greek, have been invited to attend.
Please clarify by what you mean by your question as to how non-Orthodox will be
treated?
Yiasou
Zoe
Atsaves
1. The Church is the core of Greekness in America, and
2. If that is the case, then the Church has become a tool of Satan.
The first is being argued by someone who wants the Church to be a secular Greek
club first, with "religiosity" an afterthought, and readily admits to having
strayed from the Church (Arnakis), the second seems to take an anti-Greek
attitude and equate "Greekness" with Satan. (Maloney).
Baloney to both. Both both of you should pause and reflect on your arguments
for a while. As someone who is a Greek-American, I reject the argument that
the Church should emphasize Greek language and culture to the exclusion of or
diminuation of the Greek Orthodox Faith, and I further reject the argument that
anything Greek is satanic.
Some may wish to go to Church to worship Greece or Russia, but the majority of
parishioners I run across (Greek and non-Greek) who are Greek Orthodox seem to
go to Church for a much higher purpose.
And what does any of this have to do with Archbishop Demetrios being enthroned
on September 18?
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Abp. Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept. 18
From: bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Date: Wed, 01 September 1999 02:15 PM EDT
Message-id: <bjm10-01099...@potato.cit.cornell.edu>
In article <37cc796f...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
JOH...@webtv.net
I ws refering to the fact that everytime None-Orthodox
are in attendance at some religious function and there are prayers. Some
one screams heresy. That it is forbidden for Orthodox to pray with None-
Orthodox and when its Orthodox Hierarchs that ,that is even worse.
John
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
(ats...@aol.com) on 01 Sep 1999 23:16:41 GMT we perused:
*+-1. The Church is the core of Greekness in America, and
*+-2. If that is the case, then the Church has become a tool of Satan.
*+-Baloney to both. Both both of you should pause and reflect on your arguments
Thank you!
1. Americans are as a whole a lot less secular than Europeans.
2. Greek society genuinely and piously DID once center around the church.
3. In USA society (cf deTocqueville) voluntary associations replace
the role of government in other societies. This includes churches.
4. Just about every ethnic group used to have ethnic churches until they
assimilated. Those who are most fanatic about assimilation come from ethnic
groups whose home country was once in conflict with the USA, yet before
these conflicts, these groups were the ones most emphatically ethnocentric.
5. You can't force Greekness or Americaness or Russianess on anyone.
The church has to be bigger than that. You can have a mild tension
towards "More English" the way Iakovos did, but you can't force it.
Church transcends ethnicity. When I headed the OCF in college, what struck
me was that 85% of what I thought was Greek culture was Orthodox culture -
I saw the same things in Egyptians, Russians, Romanians, even Orthodox
from India.
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
You cannot force someone to be a Greek citisen if he does not want it.
I was told if I wanted to be a Greek citisen when I was 18, I would have
to register to vote in Greece. I deliberately chose NOT to.
Now, I know Greece attributes citisenship by blood and the USA by
soil, and that Greece reserves the right to draft into military
service anyone of Greek ancestry who works in Greece for more than a
year - and that the USA can't do anyrhing about this and that this is
unrelated to dual citisenship.
I crossposted to misc.legal so they can add details.
In <37cc796f...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> by Alexander Arnakis
(Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) on Wed, 01 Sep 1999 07:27:46 GMT
we perused:
*+-Vasos Panagiotopoulos (+1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier) wrote:
*+-> Dual citisenship is something you apply for. The US
*+->citisenship oath RENOUNCES prior citisenships. Dual citisenship
*+->applies only to countries that have specific treaties with the USA for
*+->this purpose.
*+->
*+-You're totally wrong about this. You don't apply for dual citizenship;
*+-it is something that arises because of operation of law. U.S. law
*+-defines a U.S. citizen as someone who was born or naturalized in the
*+-U.S. (or was born abroad of U.S. parents). Many other countries,
*+-including Greece, define citizenship on the basis of ancestry.
*+-
*+-Therefore, someone who was born in the U.S. of Greek citizen parents
*+-would be a dual national at birth.
*+-
*+-It is true that the U.S. naturalization oath includes a renunciation
*+-of prior citizenship. However, in the case of Greeks, this is
*+-ineffective because under Greek law one doesn't lose Greek citizenship
*+-by a simple declaration of renunciation. It generally takes an Act by
*+-the Greek Parliament to ratify such a renunciation.
*+-
*+-The U.S. Courts, and the U.S. State Department, have recognized this
*+-situation. In fact, there is quite a well-developed body of law
*+-dealing with issues of dual citizenship.
*+-
*+-Generally, treaties have nothing to do with it.
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
(Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) on Wed, 01 Sep 1999 07:27:46 GMT
we perused:
*+-1. Would it make any difference if the representatives of Greece (who
*+-may or may not make an appearance at your church) were in fact
In principle, no. People come to the USA for a variety of reasons.
Some of them don't want to have anyhting to do with Greece any more -
isn't it their church as well?
*+-Greeks in general (at least in modern times) have never subscribed to
*+-the notion that Greece should have universal assimilative citizenship.
Modern Greece has in fact absorbed the notion of "self-determination",
something alien to the vast majority of Greek history.
*+-Why is secularity a social disease? Your assumption is that
*+-religiousity is the only healthy social condition. I would strongly
*+-dispute that.
Well, then don't attend any more churches and leave us all alone.
*+-If this is true, then the Greek ethnicity in America is doomed!
It is. As a whole, America is different from other countries.
I found it so abhorent my nephews (cousin's kids) were called
"auslanders" in Germany and made to attend "auslander schools".
*+-I would dispute your 90% figure. But if it is anywhere close to true,
The GOA has no more than 250,000 members. I confronted the late GOA
chancellor Fr Germanos Stavropoulos with this a month before his
tragic accident and he confirmed it, adding "but the Russians are much
less" ( cf: http://www.dorsai.org/~vjp2/ruminatn.htm#GRKNUMS ) There
are no more than half a million Orthodox in the USA (I don't want to
list it here, click the above link for the data).
The fact is ethnocentricity works to the advantage of the papacy which
tells the young Americans of Greek ancestry that Orthodoxy is just an
ethnic variant of Vaticanism, and absorbs many of them through
intermarriage. Indeed a lot of these "ethnic" Greeks would rather
marry Italians than other Orthodox nationalities.
Most "Greek Americans" are of partial Greek heritage. The most
educated Americans (ie Asians, Greeks, Jews) have the highest
intermarriage rates, and the least educated have the lowest. I would
argue this because the uneducated do not fully particiapte in the
American experience.
Alexander Arnakis
Maloney) wrote:
>
>As I understand the matter, the USA actually does not even recognize dual
>citizenship for adults sufficiently to officially "not" recognize it. One
>is either a US citizen fully or one is not. The "second" citizenship is a
>*nonentity* under US law. It is considered so utterly insignificant as to
>not even merit being made illegal. Children born under mixed citizenship
>circumstances have the option of declaring US citizenship at adulthood
>without requiring naturallization.
Sorry to say you're completely wrong about this. I hold both Greek and
U.S. passports, and I'm a U.S. civil servant.
The State Department has quite detailed regulations concerning dual
citizenship. And there's a well-developed body of law in the U.S
courts.
Since you're an Orthodox Christian, the situation is analogous to the
dual nature of Christ -- fully human and yet fully devine. So one can
be "fully" a U.S. citizen and also "fully" a Greek citizen.
Alexander Arnakis
>Kalistos Timothy Ware was one of the candidates at the same time as
>Spiridon.
>
Not a chance that a non-Greek would be selected.
Alexander Arnakis
>
>I was told if I wanted to be a Greek citisen when I was 18, I would have
>to register to vote in Greece. I deliberately chose NOT to.
>
>Now, I know Greece attributes citisenship by blood and the USA by
>soil, and that Greece reserves the right to draft into military
>service anyone of Greek ancestry who works in Greece for more than a
>year - and that the USA can't do anyrhing about this and that this is
>unrelated to dual citisenship.
>
>I crossposted to misc.legal so they can add details.
>
If your father was a Greek citizen when you were born (or your mother,
if you were born after 1984), regardless of where you were born, you
are a Greek citizen. It doesn't matter if you are also a citizen of
another country.
In most cases, if you don't want to assert Greek citizenship, this is
a moot point. But if you take up residence in Greece, and stay for
more than 6 months, you are liable to be drafted into the Greek Army
up until the age of 50.
The draft issue is DIRECTLY related to dual citizenship.
Anna Jarlson
citizen...this gave her and my mother, aunt and uncle the 'choice' to live
and work in either country, and as far as I understood it, the USA fully
recognizes both her citizenship(s).
Rich Wales
> If your father was a Greek citizen when you were
> born (or your mother, if you were born after 1984),
> regardless of where you were born, you are a Greek
> citizen. . . . if you take up residence in Greece,
> and stay for more than 6 months, you are liable to
> be drafted into the Greek Army up until the age of
> 50. The draft issue is DIRECTLY related to dual
> citizenship.
And Greece isn't the only country where this sort of thing can happen.
I knew someone, some years ago, who was born in the US to Korean
parents. He went to South Korea as a missionary for the Mormon Church
-- but a few months into his stay, he was informed that he was a Korean
citizen because his father was from Korea (I'm not sure if his father
was from South or North Korea, or even if it made any difference). As
a result, my friend had to leave the country ASAP in order not to be
drafted into the South Korean army. This despite the fact that he had
come to Korea on a US passport, had not claimed any sort of privileges
or benefits reserved for Korean citizens, and had never imagined or
wanted himself to be a citizen of any country other than the US.
Under certain circumstances, children of US citizens can be deemed under
US law to be US citizens, even if they are born outside the US. This
is unlikely to have military service implications (since the US hasn't
conscripted anyone since 1973), but there could be tax consequences --
the US being one of only a handful of nations which claim a right to tax
any citizen, regardless of his residence or the source of his income.
Rich Wales ri...@webcom.com http://www.webcom.com/richw/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. My comments are for discussion
purposes only and are not intended to be relied upon as legal or
professional advice.
Alexander Arnakis
>We seem to have two fascinating leaps in logic in this thread:
>
>1. The Church is the core of Greekness in America, and
>
>2. If that is the case, then the Church has become a tool of Satan.
>
>The first is being argued by someone who wants the Church to be a secular Greek
>club first, with "religiosity" an afterthought, and readily admits to having
>strayed from the Church (Arnakis), the second seems to take an anti-Greek
>attitude and equate "Greekness" with Satan. (Maloney).
>
First of all, I wouldn't denigrate the religious aspect of the Church
for those who are sincere Orthodox believers. But in my experience
there are many, many nominal Greek Orthodox who either give little
thought to the actual Church theological teachings, or (like myself
formerly) are conscientiously opposed to these teachings but pay lip
service to them (hypocritically) for the sake of the other benefits
the Church provides.
Let us ask ourselves, what is it that makes the Greek Orthodox Church
unique in America? And what is the best way to keep and attract
members to it?
I contend that it is not the Orthodox theology that motivates the bulk
of the members. The theology is distinguishable from Catholicism, or
even mainstream Protestantism, by relatively obscure points that are
lost on the average churchgoer. Nor is it the outward manifestations
of the Liturgy, the Icons, the priestly vestments, the incense, etc.,
all of which can be found among other Orthodox jurisdictions and among
Eastern Rite (Uniate) Catholics. And since these aspects are not
unique, those placing primary importance on them would have no
difficulty gravitating to other denominations which are
organizationally stronger.
No, the ONLY thing that makes the Greek Orthodox Church unique is its
Greekness. This is the thing that must be emphasized among the youth
in order to keep them within the fold. And, for the sake of keeping
the next generations Greek, we must actively try to discourage
intermarriage with non-Greeks and encourage marriage within the
community. And the Church should do everything it can to maintain its
traditional place for the new immigants arriving from the Old Country,
who rejuvenate its Hellenic character with each wave of arrivals.
I think the Greek language and culture have a lot to offer and would
be very attractive to the educated younger generation if presented in
an appropriate way. So, the Church should organize Greek summer camps,
sponsor trips to Greece, conduct Greek language classes, promote Greek
film festivals, etc., etc., all of which have been condemned by
certain posters on this NG. But I say that this is the only way to
keep the Church from becoming extinct within a few generations.
Atsaves
Neighborhood in Chicago my parish promoted Greek Ethnicity until it was blue in
the face. We were known in these parts as the Greek Ghetto Church. Most of
what you suggested in your posting was actually done with, through or at my
Parish in the form of ethnicity and language promotion.
Then a funny thing happened. Immigration from Greece suddenly slowed to a
trickle. The new arrivals worked hard, raised their families, prospered and
the vast majority moved to the suburbs. Their kids began to marry non-Greeks
and Yiayia and Papou began to fret when their grandchildren did not go to
Church.
Church attendance during that period (mid 1970's to 1990) plunged. Church
membership went from 2,500 paid annual (and several thousand who just dropped
in on occasion as you suggested) to less than 700.
Then the light bulb went off in our respective heads. The priest who lead us
for many years retired and a new priest came in who emphasized religion,
prayer, liturgy and theology. English suddenly made its way into the liturgy.
And people began flocking back to our Parish. A Church which seats 800 during
a liturgy (and averaged 300 at its nadir) suddenly was standing room only each
Sunday. The priest who promoted spirituality over ethnicity was promoted to
Metropolitan of Hong Kong.
So to answer your little lecture, the exact opposite happened at our parish.
The less "ethnic" we became, the more populated we became. The survival of our
parish in the future obviously will not be based on Greek ethnicity, but will
be based on liturgy, theology, religion, prayer, confession (unheard of years
ago), etc. The proof is within our own Parish and its remarkable comeback.
Look around you Arnakis. You are wishing for what was in the past, and not
what will be the future. Perhaps if you returned and attended a few liturgies
you may rediscover your faith.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Abp. Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept. 18
From: Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Alexander Arnakis)
Date: Fri, 03 September 1999 01:05 AM EDT
Message-id: <37d123be...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Alexander Arnakis
The experience of your parish could easily be due to any of the
following factors:
1. Cyclical changes in interest in things religious over time.
Religion in general has been experiencing a revival in the 1990's.
2. The dynamic personality of your priest.
3. Increase in the educational level of the younger generation, and
with that a growing appreciation of things Greek.
4. The improved economy of the 1990's, making financial contributions
to the church easier.
So, unless these various factors could be isolated and analyzed, we do
not know exactly what led to the revival of your parish. I think my
analysis remains valid. Time will tell.
Cunneen
The less "ethnic" we became, the more populated we became. The survival of our
parish in the future obviously will not be based on Greek ethnicity, but will
be based on liturgy, theology, religion, prayer, confession (unheard of years
ago), etc. The proof is within our own Parish and its remarkable comeback.>>
I wonder if the push for Greek ethnicity implies a lack of faith that the
Orthodox can "compete" successfully in the American religious arena? Isn't it
a "circle the wagons" defensive posture?
Your post seems to indicate that a vibrant Orthodox parish can more than hold
its own.
Deo Gratias
John
Warecliff
faith that the
>Orthodox can "compete" successfully in the American religious arena? Isn't
>it
>a "circle the wagons" defensive posture?
>
I don't think it has anything to do with Orthodoxy, John. But it is a
defensive, circle the wagons mentality manifesting itself here. I'm sure, over
the past two or three years you've seen references to the Omogenia on these
threads and its that essentially "unAmerican" "volkische" or ethnocentric
attitude which drives this Greek ethnicity stuff in 1999. It doesn't surprise
me that some think the Church should be in the forefront of this. The Church,
as others have pointed out, for better or worse, has been, up to the present
generation, the focal point of the Greek community here. What is surprising is
that under Spyridon, Greekness became an article of faith for his immediate
circle, some professors at the School (remember the infamous Fr. Dragas?)and
various members of the clergy. In America in 1999 this was absurd, but Spyridon
used the "Greek card" both to divide the faithful and attempt to rally the
"Omogenia" (this doesn't include anyone of non-Greek blood, even if they are
Greek wannabees; its a matter of the blood) to his standard. The fact that it
didn't work, it seems to me, bodes well for the future of Orthodoxy and its
ability to "compete" in the American religious arena.
Jack Clifford
Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Abp. Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept. 18
From: Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Alexander Arnakis)
Date: Sat, 04 September 1999 01:37 AM EDT
Message-id: <37dbad47...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
The experience of your parish could easily be due to any of the
following factors:
1. Cyclical changes in interest in things religious over time.
Religion in general has been experiencing a revival in the 1990's.>>
Perhaps this has been a factor. It certainly cannot be ruled out.
<<2. The dynamic personality of your priest.>>
That would explain two years of the revival. The other four that followed?
His replacement is very spiritual but far less charismatic and a very low key
personality type while hard working.
<<3. Increase in the educational level of the younger generation, and
with that a growing appreciation of things Greek.>>
The increase in the educational level is certainly true. The growing
appreciation of things "Greek" however has not necessarily followed. Greek
school enrollment continues its slow decline, mirroring past years. Our full
time principal has retired and is now being replaced with a part time
principal, part time teacher. Attendance at Greek Independence Day events,
parades and the like have dramatically declined and continue to do so to the
point where we no longer use our auditorium which seats nearly 1,000 but often
use a smaller hall which seats 300-400 or so.
<<4. The improved economy of the 1990's, making financial contributions
to the church easier.>>
The financial problems continue primarily because our building is way too large
for our current congregation, but the assets of having a large auditorium,
classrooms, a gymnasium, smaller conference and meeting rooms, a separate
baptistry and other amenities, even with our main building being constructed in
1927 and auditorium and gym in 1962 and all are in chronic need of repair and
upgrading outweigh the liabilities of such a huge structure (we heat and air
condition an entire city block to give you an idea of our size).
Although the average contribution per steward has increased, it has not been an
overly dramatic one.
<<So, unless these various factors could be isolated and analyzed, we do
not know exactly what led to the revival of your parish. I think my
analysis remains valid. Time will tell.>>
We have a good idea. The Greek ethnicity of the past is clearly that: of the
past. Even our Greek ethnic diehards in our parish admit to that rather
mournfully. An attempt to have a rather popular Greek singer from Greece
appear in our auditorium sold so few tickets that the event was cancelled.
Years ago such acts from Greece would hit the Chicago area and stay for a while
(weeks at a time) playing before packed houses. Today they come in for one or
two quick shows in small or medium venues and vamoose quick.
Your comments remind me of a little story during my tenure as Parish Council
President. Our priest who retired began implementing some of the changes which
proved very successful, and flat out told the Parish Council that since he was
retiring, he would give it a shot and if people got upset, well at least he
tried. One Sunday in particular just towards the end of the Orthros (Matins),
an altar boy approached me with a note from that priest. That note from Fr. V.
said: "Be prepared for the fireworks. Today there will be English in the
Liturgy."
Sure enough half of the liturgy was in English. I braced myself during the
coffee/social hour for an onslaught of outraged complaints. No one said
anything. Later Fr. V and I talked and he too said no one complained.
Time can be the greatest force of change of all.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
Alexander Arnakis
>
>I wonder if the push for Greek ethnicity implies a lack of faith that the
>Orthodox can "compete" successfully in the American religious arena? Isn't it
>a "circle the wagons" defensive posture?
>
When you "Americanize" you "Protestantize" or "Catholicize" the youth.
It's the culture. The Jews have this exact same problem in America.
One of their answers has been to emphasize the Holocaust and ties to
Israel.
Alexander Arnakis
>
>We have a good idea. The Greek ethnicity of the past is clearly that: of the
>past. Even our Greek ethnic diehards in our parish admit to that rather
>mournfully. An attempt to have a rather popular Greek singer from Greece
>appear in our auditorium sold so few tickets that the event was cancelled.
>Years ago such acts from Greece would hit the Chicago area and stay for a while
>(weeks at a time) playing before packed houses. Today they come in for one or
>two quick shows in small or medium venues and vamoose quick.
>
Hellenism among the Diaspora. Too often, Greece treats the Greeks
overseas as distant stepchildren. There are many more things that can
and should be done to foster contacts between Greece and all of the
Greeks abroad, and not just the "community leaders."
>Sure enough half of the liturgy was in English. I braced myself during the
>coffee/social hour for an onslaught of outraged complaints. No one said
>anything. Later Fr. V and I talked and he too said no one complained.
>
Could it be that the parishioners were paying so little attention to
the Liturgy that they just didn't care what language it was in? ;-)
Alexander Arnakis
> What is surprising is
>that under Spyridon, Greekness became an article of faith for his immediate
>circle, some professors at the School (remember the infamous Fr. Dragas?)and
>various members of the clergy. In America in 1999 this was absurd, but Spyridon
>used the "Greek card" both to divide the faithful and attempt to rally the
>"Omogenia" (this doesn't include anyone of non-Greek blood, even if they are
>Greek wannabees; its a matter of the blood) to his standard. The fact that it
>didn't work, it seems to me, bodes well for the future of Orthodoxy and its
>ability to "compete" in the American religious arena.
>
Mark my words, Dimitrios will do exactly the same things in this
regard. He can't help himself; he is Greek and has the Greek mindset.
The only solution, from your point of view, would be to have a purely
American Archbishop, and not just one merely born in America, like
Spyridon. The likelihood of this happening is about on a par with the
likelihood of the Patriarch leaving Constantinople.
Warecliff
this
>regard. He can't help himself; he is Greek and has the Greek mindset.
>
>The only solution, from your point of view, would be to have a purely
>American Archbishop, and not just one merely born in America, like
>Spyridon. The likelihood of this happening is about on a par with the
>likelihood of the Patriarch leaving Constantinople.
>
should he come here and try to play the same ethnic card Spyridon played, I
fear he'll end up with an autocephaly movement on his hands that will be
unstoppable. I have to disagree with you about the inevitability of the new
Archbishop using the ethnic card. I spend a good deal of time in Greece every
year. The change in outlook of the Greek people I've seen over the past ten
years is astonishing. No more talk of "the Europeans" or "going to Europe".
They seem, especially those under 50, to be joining the world at large and
becoming at least citizens of the EU if not of the world. The Greek phronema,
in and of itself, isn't the problem. Greek racism, Omogeniaism or Dragasism is.
My oldest son travels to Greece on his own fairly regularly; he went to Greece
with us when he was little. I wanted him to know and appreciate his roots and,
so far as is possible for a thoroughly American kid, love the old country of
his great-grandfather. It worked, without the Church playing Greek club for
him and he's a first class Hellene without any of the omogenia Dragasism pushed
by the late and unlamented Spyridon regime. Oh, and by the way, he's a college
student, a varsity athelete and in Church every Sunday he's home from school.
There's no need for the Church to be a Greek Club and there's certainly no need
for the Archbishop to be 100% American, though I suspect the next one will be.
As for this being as likely as the Patriarchate leaving Constantinople, well
very few of us care anymore where the EP goes or what he does, so long as he
doesn't come here and doesn't do it to us.
Jack Clifford
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
(Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) on Sun, 05 Sep 1999 01:49:22
-0400 we perused:
*+-Hellenism among the Diaspora. Too often, Greece treats the Greeks
*+-overseas as distant stepchildren. There are many more things that can
*+-and should be done to foster contacts between Greece and all of the
First of all, with the EU, a lot of Europeans begin to see
those who left to live in America as "ethnic trash" or "people of low
quality" they were better off getting rid of. I've seen this with
Irish, and Italians as well as Greeks. The London_Economist, once in a
while, begins to decry how American religiosity more resembles the
third-world than European secularism. Fortunately, most of us see
secularism as just another masturbatory European disease.
Secondly, while we are proud of our Greek heritage, by and
large, we do NOT like the terms "diaspora", "apodimos" (expat) and
"omoyenia" (a nazi-sounding term if there ever was one!). These terms
are very offensive and insulting to us. The only exception is those
who came here in 1965-1980, when the USA "melting pot" got indigestion
and started masqurading as a "mosaic".
In countries with a multiculturalist ideology (Canada and
Australia) or in countries where the nazi ethic still flourishes
(Germany, were they have special schools for "auslanders" - another
nazi term), Greeks wish to call themselves "diaspora", but not here.
The reason Greece started falling for this ridiculous thinking is that
in the 1970s, by and large, those leaving Greece were more often
headed for Germany than the USA. (Keep in mind that in 1972 Greece
stopped being a net exported of labor.)
However, Greece itself will be the one to suffer from such
delusions, because corrupt leftis politicians will create non-existant
"diaspora" voters to keep themselves in office, just as they inflate
numbers in making it look that there are millions of Greeks in the USA
(when you would be luck if 150,000 could speak any functional
day-to-day Greek, and that only 250,000 are Orthodox).
For further reference:
http://www.dorsai.org/~vjp2/gramrlpl.htm
http://www.dorsai.org/~vjp2/grk-views.txt (in iso-8859-7 ELOT font)
http://www.dorsai.org/~vjp2/ruminatn.htm#GRKNUMS
Atsaves
The EP and Spyridon found that out the hard way recently when they tried to
drag to Church back into the 1600's using dictatorial rather than conciliar
methods. Time has changed all of us, it has not changed our faith.
The EP will eventually leave Constantinople when we run out of Greek Orthodox
"Turkish Citizens" for the Holy Synod to elect subject to the veto power of the
Turkish Authorities.
With a Greek-Turkish population now declining to around 1,500 with the majority
of them elderly, it may very well be in our lifetimes that the EP will turn out
the lights and move elsewhere. Then the Holy Synod of the EP can function like
a true Holy Synod again and not function under Turkish vetos.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<<Subject: Re: Abp. Dimitrios to be enthroned on Sept. 18
From: ware...@aol.com (Warecliff)
Date: Sun, 05 September 1999 09:33 AM EDT
Message-id: <19990905093342...@ng-bg1.aol.com>
Alexander Arnakis
> First of all, with the EU, a lot of Europeans begin to see
>those who left to live in America as "ethnic trash" or "people of low
>quality" they were better off getting rid of. I've seen this with
>Irish, and Italians as well as Greeks.
I travel to Greece quite regularly, and I have never seen this
attitude. In fact, I would say that most Greeks have some relative in
America, and they are unlikely to denigrate their own family! Now,
years ago there was a stereotype of the "brouklis" or returning
emigrant, but those people sometimes brought derision upon themselves
by their overweaning behavior.
>The London_Economist, once in a
>while, begins to decry how American religiosity more resembles the
>third-world than European secularism. Fortunately, most of us see
>secularism as just another masturbatory European disease.
Speak for yourself.
> Secondly, while we are proud of our Greek heritage, by and
>large, we do NOT like the terms "diaspora", "apodimos" (expat) and
>"omoyenia" (a nazi-sounding term if there ever was one!). These terms
>are very offensive and insulting to us.
Why? If the Jews talk about their Diaspora, why can't the Greeks? And
why is "omoyenia" Nazi-sounding? It simply refers to the totality of
the ethnic Greeks.
> The only exception is those
>who came here in 1965-1980, when the USA "melting pot" got indigestion
>and started masqurading as a "mosaic".
I came here in 1948, as a small child with my parents, and I was
brought up to consider myself both a Greek and an American, which of
course I still do. And nobody can be more "assimilated" than I am!
> However, Greece itself will be the one to suffer from such
>delusions, because corrupt leftis politicians will create non-existant
>"diaspora" voters to keep themselves in office,
There is no evidence whatever that such vote tampering has happened or
is being planned. And anyway, the Diaspora Greeks that do vote tend to
favor New Democracy (conservative).
To call Simitis a leftist is a joke. Although, for old times' sake, he
addresses the PASOK faithful as "comrades" at the annual party
convention, his policies are totally Establishmentarian.
>just as they inflate
>numbers in making it look that there are millions of Greeks in the USA
>(when you would be luck if 150,000 could speak any functional
>day-to-day Greek, and that only 250,000 are Orthodox).
The ability to speak Greek is not what makes one Greek (witness the
Karamanlides from Asia Minor). It's the ethnic consciousness. Whether
or not they are Orthodox, in this day and age, is also irrelevant to
their ethnicity.
It's obvious from your remarks that much work needs to be done to keep
lost sheep like you from straying from the fold.
Linards Ticmanis
your statements about Germany are, as far as I can tell from living
here, and from my father being a now-naturalized foreigner (Latvian)
living here since 1945, plainly false. Special schools for foreigners
do not exist, other than very few established by themselves for people
staying in Germany only temporarily, like e.g. American GIs who want
to have English language education for their kids, or diplomatic
personell. Nobody is forced to attend any such schools, and I'd guess
that at least 95% of foreigners here don't. "Ausländer" is plainly the
German translation of "Foreign National" and is a term in use at least
since the recreation of Germany in 1871, its not from the lingua
tertii imperii. Unfortunately it is true that Helmut Kohl's former
somewhat right-wing government of Christian Democrats and Free
Democrats, particularily the former, were not very helpful in the
integration of foreigners and refused to change the old blood
principle laws of citizenship (Though this was never unsurmountable;
anybody living here for 10 years, without criminal record and not
living on welfare, could apply for citizenship, as my father did back
in 1975, provided they got released from their former citizenship by
the state of origin; the latter was sometimes problematic as
especially Turkey often required people to relinquish any and all
property held in Turkey to the Turkish State in those cases, and also
severely delayed the process.) However the new leftish government of
Gehrhard Schröder has already changed things somewhat and now lets
everybody born here or living here for 15(?) years freely choose
German citizenship; Children born here with one parent living here are
automatically treated as German citizens until they have to make the
choice at (I believe) age 22).
Germany certainly still isnt the most open country in the world in
granting citizenship, and public opinion is a big problem as it has
been extremely divided between "let them all in" and "throw them all
out". However things now seem to settle down, and also we have been
one of the most open in allowing temporary residence in case of
necessity, as the Balkan wars have shown. A far cry from Nazi politics
in my books.
Please don't claim things you dont know for sure, Vasos.
--
Linards Ticmanis
-----------------------------------------------------
"Heaven is Best if viewed with Microsoft Internet Explorer"
(from "Children of God" sect homepage.)
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier > In
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
convince most yanks that my initial comments were
correct. Unfortunately Europeans have yet to learn the real lessons of
American democracy and are content with superficial imitations like
"multiculturalism" - the saddest part is that this also applies to
Greeks, who, having invented the Athenian and Byzantine prototypes,
should know better. Unfortunatelty, even in education, the Greeks have
abandoned the AngloHellenistic concept of the generalist in favor of
the SinoGermanic model of the unpeered-hence-unispectable
hyperspecialist.
In <7qv73r$1gl$1...@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> by Linards Ticmanis
(ticm...@coli.uni-sb.de) on Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:57:09 +0200 we
perused:
*+-that at least 95% of foreigners here don't. "Ausländer" is plainly the
*+-German translation of "Foreign National" and is a term in use at least
*+-since the recreation of Germany in 1871, its not from the lingua
*+-tertii imperii. Unfortunately it is true that Helmut Kohl's former
*+-somewhat right-wing government of Christian Democrats and Free
*+-Democrats, particularily the former, were not very helpful in the
*+-integration of foreigners and refused to change the old blood
*+-principle laws of citizenship (Though this was never unsurmountable;
...
*+-Germany certainly still isnt the most open country in the world in
*+-granting citizenship, and public opinion is a big problem as it has
*+-been extremely divided between "let them all in" and "throw them all
*+-out". However things now seem to settle down, and also we have been
*+-one of the most open in allowing temporary residence in case of
*+-necessity, as the Balkan wars have shown. A far cry from Nazi politics
*+-Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier > In
*+-countries with a multiculturalist ideology (Canada and
*+-> Australia) or in countries where the nazi ethic still flourishes
*+-> (Germany, were they have special schools for "auslanders" - another
*+-> nazi term), Greeks wish to call themselves "diaspora", but not here.
Rich Wales
> you renounce all previous citizenship when naturalised,
> but you are then allowed to add it back.
Be aware, too, that although the US naturalization oath contains that
elaborate and ornate "renunciatory clause", this renunciation may or
may not be accepted as binding by a new US citizen's "old country".
In particular, it is my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm
mistaken on this) that the renunciatory clause in the US naturalization
oath is legally meaningless under Greek law -- and, as a result, a Greek
citizen who becomes a naturalized US citizen is still a Greek citizen
(as far as Greek law is concerned).
Alexander Arnakis
>Vasos Panagiotopoulos wrote:
>
> > you renounce all previous citizenship when naturalised,
> > but you are then allowed to add it back.
>
>Be aware, too, that although the US naturalization oath contains that
>elaborate and ornate "renunciatory clause", this renunciation may or
>may not be accepted as binding by a new US citizen's "old country".
>
>In particular, it is my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm
>mistaken on this) that the renunciatory clause in the US naturalization
>oath is legally meaningless under Greek law -- and, as a result, a Greek
>citizen who becomes a naturalized US citizen is still a Greek citizen
>(as far as Greek law is concerned).
>
That's exactly right -- a renunciation of Greek citizenship is
ineffective unless, among other requirements, it is ratified by a
special Act of the Greek Parliament.
Arthur L. Rubin
> That's exactly right -- a renunciation of Greek citizenship is
> ineffective unless, among other requirements, it is ratified by a
> special Act of the Greek Parliament.
Similarly, if I remember correctly, a renunciation of US citizenship
is ineffective unless performed on US soil (at an embasssy, etc.).
There may be other exceptions, but I believe most of the Vietnam
era draft dodgers in Canada are still US citizens.
--
Arthur L. Rubin 216-...@mcimail.com
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
According to the web page cited at the end, you renounce all previous
citisenship when naturalised, but you are then allowed to add it back.
Oath of Allegiance. If your application is approved, you will be
required to take the following oath of allegiance to the United States
in order to become a citizen:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce
and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince,
potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore
been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the
Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all
enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and
allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United
States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant
service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the
law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian
direction when requrired by the law; and that I take this obligation
freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help
me God."
The oath came from this bizarrely named web site
http://www.holladaypaganism.com/oathofal.htm
(I just noticed it and I am not amused)
There is a detailed discussion of dual citisenship at:
http://webcom.com/richw/dualcit/faq.html
Rich Wales
> Similarly, if I remember correctly, a renunciation
> of US citizenship is ineffective unless performed
> on US soil (at an embasssy, etc.). There may be
> other exceptions, but I believe most of the Vietnam
> era draft dodgers in Canada are still US citizens.
It's more complicated than that. US law on dual citizenship and loss of
citizenship has changed considerably since the 1960's. Back then, if
you acquired another citizenship (such as Canadian citizenship), loss
of US citizenship was pretty much automatic, regardless of whether you
wanted to give it up or made any explicit moves to give it up.
Even after the US Supreme Court ruled in 1967 (Afroyim v. Rusk) that the
14th Amendment had elevated the retention of US citizenship to the level
of a constitutional right, the State Department continued for some time
to treat foreign naturalization as grounds for loss of US citizenship,
for reasons such as the following:
(1) an extremely narrow reading of the Afroyim ruling -- basically
conceding only that voting in a foreign election could no longer
be grounds for revocation of US citizenship;
(2) a policy that performance of an action which Congress had designated
as causing loss of citizenship (e.g., acquiring the citizenship of
another country) was sufficient to prove the intent to give up one's
US citizenship required by the Afroyim ruling (this interpretation
wasn't ultimately squashed until the 1980 Supreme Court ruling in
Vance v. Terrazas);
(3) the existence, between 1967 and 1973, or an explicit renunciatory
clause in the Canadian naturalization oath -- meaning that Americans
who obtained Canadian citizenship during that period of time were
generally held to have conclusively (irrebuttably) shown an intent
to give up their US citizenship, regardless of anything else they
might have said or done;
(4) a general State Dept. policy, even after the Terrazas ruling in
1980, to the effect that foreign naturalization constituted strong
(albeit not 100% irrebuttable) evidence of an intent to give up US
citizenship.
This general state of affairs really didn't change until the State Dept.
adopted its current, highly permissive policy on retention of citizen-
ship in April 1990.
My understanding is that quite a few of the Americans who fled to Canada
to escape the Vietnam-era draft, and who subsequently became Canadian
citizens, were indeed involuntarily stripped of their US citizenship at
the time. Some have managed to get their US citizenship reinstated, but
not all -- and, of course, some have never tried to do so, or might not
even be aware that changes in US law and State Dept. policy might permit
them to get their old citizenship back.
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
(Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) on Sun, 05 Sep 1999 22:40:04
-0400 we perused:
*+->secularism as just another masturbatory European disease.
*+-
*+-Speak for yourself.
No, speak for YOURself. People like yourself do not belong in church. Period.
*+-> Secondly, while we are proud of our Greek heritage, by and
*+->large, we do NOT like the terms "diaspora", "apodimos" (expat) and
*+->"omoyenia" (a nazi-sounding term if there ever was one!). These terms
*+->are very offensive and insulting to us.
*+-
*+-Why? If the Jews talk about their Diaspora, why can't the Greeks? And
*+-why is "omoyenia" Nazi-sounding? It simply refers to the totality of
*+-the ethnic Greeks.
Omoyania refers to racial homogeneity. As such it is a vulgar term.
Jews in America by and large do NOT talk about the
diaspora. Only a certain group of leftist Jews who escaped Europe in
the 1930s have the fancy of being the influence behind Israel - but
relations between them and Israel are deteriorating.
But you manage to disclose the hideous, vulgar anti-Semitism
that hides underneath all the Quackandroids, even though they are led
by a man name Semites.
*+-> The only exception is those
*+->who came here in 1965-1980, when the USA "melting pot" got indigestion
*+->and started masqurading as a "mosaic".
*+-
*+-I came here in 1948, as a small child with my parents, and I was
*+-brought up to consider myself both a Greek and an American, which of
*+-course I still do. And nobody can be more "assimilated" than I am!
Yet you are part of the problematic "baby boom" generation
that caused most problems in both Greece and the USA. You may have
come here as a youngster, but it is clearly obvious you hung out way
too much with the Quackandroid miscreants who came here 1965-80.
*+-> However, Greece itself will be the one to suffer from such
*+->delusions, because corrupt leftis politicians will create non-existant
*+->"diaspora" voters to keep themselves in office,
*+-
*+-There is no evidence whatever that such vote tampering has happened or
*+-is being planned. And anyway, the Diaspora Greeks that do vote tend to
*+-favor New Democracy (conservative).
Because corruption in Greece is so rampant, most people do not
object to it the way we yanks do. I have been involved in politics
long enough to know that such a flakey definition of voting rights is
ripe for abuse.. and believe me, when something is ripe, human animals
take advantage. The difference between USA democracy and European
democracy is that we in the USA start with the premise that anyone
wanting public office is evil, so we put chains on them before they
enter office - but you Europeans keep getting fooled that your
politicians can save you, that they can be some kind of messiah, and
they keep robbing you blind.
*+-To call Simitis a leftist is a joke. Although, for old times' sake, he
*+-addresses the PASOK faithful as "comrades" at the annual party
*+-convention, his policies are totally Establishmentarian.
No, Gustax Semites is a part of the
Clinton-Blair-Schroeder-Barak mafia, socialists with a friendly
face. They are the people who made pilgrimages to Breznev to learn how
to create mafias: let's call them Clintoonista Hadjibreznevies.
*+-Karamanlides from Asia Minor). It's the ethnic consciousness. Whether
*+-or not they are Orthodox, in this day and age, is also irrelevant to
So go form your secular and cultural organisations and leave
our churches alone so that we may genuinely worship. You know, when
the Greek-American students organisation formed at Columbia in 1978
(to separate from the Greek groups compose dmostly of those who
planned to go back to Greece) I suggested they link with the
Archdiocese and they replied there were many Jewish Greek students
there. In fact, Flushing is now the largest USA Greek parish, but
when I was growing up half the Greeks in Flushing were Jewish. At the
Cathedral in NYC, we had folks who attended the youth fellowship who
were Arvanites who normally attended the Albanian (OCA) church in
Jamaica. I know someone who was born in Athens in 1940 yet is Jewish,
and he formed the AHEPA chapter at UIUC as a student, then they threw
him out because he was Jewish. So, ask yourself, are you secular? If
so, why do you involve the church? Are you trying to hide your
bigotries behind religious freedom?
Michael Baker
relating to
dual citizenship: http://www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/law.html
US State Department
policies on
dual citizenship: http://www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/policies.html
US court rulings
on dual citizenship http://www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/cases.html
> Even after the US Supreme Court ruled in 1967 (Afroyim v. Rusk) that the
> 14th Amendment had elevated the retention of US citizenship to the level
> of a constitutional right, the State Department continued for some time
> to treat foreign naturalization as grounds for loss of US citizenship,
> for reasons such as the following:
Afroyim v. Rusk (1967) http://www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/cases.html#Afroyim
> (4) a general State Dept. policy, even after the Terrazas ruling in
> 1980, to the effect that foreign naturalization constituted strong
> (albeit not 100% irrebuttable) evidence of an intent to give up US
> citizenship.
> This general state of affairs really didn't change until the State Dept.
> adopted its current, highly permissive policy on retention of citizen-
> ship in April 1990.
US State Department
policies on dual citizenship: http://www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/policies.html
--
Michael Baker
mike...@callyourlawyers.com
http://www.callyourlawyers.com
Voice Mail: 1-888-Excite2 Ext. 312-217-0550