Catholic dioceses in Russia are "unfriendly act" - Moscow Patriarchate
Viktor Olevich
MOSCOW. Feb 11 (Interfax) - The establishment of Catholic dioceses on the
territory of Russia puts off a possible meeting between Patriarch of Moscow
and all Russia Alexy II and Pope John Paul II, spokesman for the Russian
Orthodox Church Igor Vyzhanov has told Interfax.
He referred to the statement of Holy See press secretary Joaquin
Navarro-Vals that the Vatican would upgrade the status of its institutions
in Russia.
The Moscow Patriarchate defines this intention as "an unfriendly action
as regards the Russian Orthodox Church and a step that does not take into
account the Church's interests," Vyzhanov said. "Such matters should be
discussed by the Churches instead of being fostered unilaterally."
"The development of a full-scale structure of the Catholic Church in
Russia does not conform to the genuine clerical needs of the Vatican. It
aims at further missionary activities among the people of our country,
which has never been Catholic," the Moscow Patriarchate said.
The Holy See plans to have four Catholic dioceses in Russia and to make
head of Russia's Catholics Tadeusz Kondrusevich the Archbishop-
Metropolitan of Our Lady's Archdiocese in Moscow.
Meanwhile, even the ancient, undivided Church believed there could not
be two bishops in one town. That principle was later defined as the
principle of canonical territory, Vyzhanov said.
As for the establishments of the Russian Orthodox Church in Catholic
countries, he said, "our church communities abroad are made up of
compatriots instead of foreigners, and we do not divide foreign countries
into eparchies. For instance, the bishop who lives in Paris caters to
Russian believers in France, Italy and Spain."
P. Skovorodkin
и благословлявшая войны на уничтожение России прется
со своей структурой в Россию (с благословения либерастов).
То есть католики, религиозно подчиненные "непогрешимому папе", сидящему в
Ватикане хотят подчинять ему же Россиян.
Нахуй Ватикан из России.
JOH...@webtv.net
insurance for Catholics .As the Russian govt. interferes more and more
in the affairs of relgions in Russia,usualy at the instigation of the
Patriarch of Moscow.
Marina
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4450-3C...@storefull-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden
I can not see a unfriendly act. We have here in Germany many Orthodox
Hierarchs (and it is good to have them in our country as witnesses, that
God’s Holy Ghost inspire all people to praise him in different languages
and traditions). But even, when these bishops and priests came only als
pastors for her own people (Russians, Greeks, Serbians, ...), it was
inevitable that also came German people, convert to Orthodox faith and
no Catholic or Protestant bishop today complain about it - it ist
freedom of religion.
It is clear, that the position of Russian Orthodox Church after the
years under sovjet oppression is difficult, but it is not good for the
future to struggle with windmills wings (as we say in German). It would
be better to discuss together, to find compromises and in the future
even to cooperate.
Pope John Paul II. has edited some principles for the Evangelization and
Ecumenism in Former Soviet Territories
(http://home.t-online.de/home/niko.wy/fsoviete.htm). Only in dialog can
I say: Do you really do, what ist written there.
Helmut Meier (excuse my bad English)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Kath. Pfarramt St. Laurentius Ruhmannsfelden
Telefon: 09929-902236 Fax: 09929-902237 Mobil: 0170 1039828
Adresse: Postfach 9, 94235 Ruhmannsfelden
Marktplatz 6, 94239 Ruhmannsfelden
E-Mail: pfarrei.ruh...@web.de
Homepage: http://kath_pfarr_ruhmannsfelden.bei.t-online.de/
--------------------------------------------------------------
Angantyr
"P. Skovorodkin" <podv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C682DEA...@yahoo.com...
> Ни хуя себе, католическая ересь, столетями направлявшая
> и благословлявшая войны на уничтожение России прется
> со своей структурой в Россию (с благословения либерастов).
> То есть католики, религиозно подчиненные "непогрешимому папе", сидящему в
> Ватикане хотят подчинять ему же Россиян.
> Нахуй Ватикан из России.
Я люблю Россию. Я также согласен с Вами, что Католические церкви и
Протестантские церкви уничтожают культуру и историю России.
Соответственно, мы должны быть сильны и *справедливы*, чтобы мы защитили ее.
Пожалуйста не опозорите Святую Россию с профанацией.
Пол
P. Skovorodkin
его акциям в России.
А позицию "не дай Бог не обидьте католиков" мы не
приемлем, они к нам всегда были беспощадны, как и жиды,
и другого от них не ждем.
Ежели чего, утрутся, переживут.
Igor R. Boyko
>Справедливость я вижу в решительном противодействии Ватикану,
>его акциям в России.
>А позицию "не дай Бог не обидьте католиков" мы не
>приемлем, они к нам всегда были беспощадны, как и жиды,
А разве не сказано подставить другую щеку?
ValuedCustomer
the Pope whining about them.
If the religion is not strong enough to stand on its own merit, then it has
reason to be worried about another religion's encroachment. It makes one
wonder if the Russian Orthodox church is just one big scam or the priests
are just worried about their meal ticket.
If the patriarche doesn't believe in his own religion and its ability to
stand up to this test, one has to question the validity of the religion
itself.
"Viktor Olevich" <vikol...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6b2506b9.02021...@posting.google.com...
Evan
"Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden" <kath_pfarr_r...@t-online.de> wrote in
message news:3C685B82...@t-online.de...
> It is clear, that the position of Russian Orthodox Church after the
> years under sovjet oppression is difficult, but it is not good for the
> future to struggle with windmills wings (as we say in German). It would
> be better to discuss together, to find compromises and in the future
> even to cooperate.
The problem is that there is little to nothing to discuss.
The Roman Catholic Church had a number of dioceses in Tsarist Russia, but
they were linked to geography (areas that were once under Poland, etc). Now
that isn't the case.
The Roman Catholic Church has both created many of the problems in the
Ukraine as well as fuels the fire there. That is where you have seen the
pope say one thing and do another. Given the chance what makes one think
that the Vatican won't do the same things where it can within Russia between
the Orthodox Catholics there (that wedge, of course, provided by the ROCOR
when she opted to try to divide the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia).
The Roman Catholic pope says that we are "sister churches". If you want to
promote that idea, you don't do things that make you appear to be poaching
the flock of your "sister church". I personally believe that Cardinal
Ratzinger was most correct when he said that we were NOT "sister churches".
Comments that the Roman Catholic pope did not correct, and in fact, seems to
follow, regardless of what else he may say (which is the common practice
that we see of speaking out of both sides of his mouth).
The Roman Catholic pope says that we are two lungs. The problem there is
that the Uniates see themselves as the "other lung". No one corrects them
so one can only conclude that we are not really the "other lung". Again,
depending upon which side of his mouth he is speaking out of, we really
don't know where Roman Catholicism stands.
> Pope John Paul II. has edited some principles for the Evangelization and
> Ecumenism in Former Soviet Territories
> (http://home.t-online.de/home/niko.wy/fsoviete.htm). Only in dialog can
> I say: Do you really do, what ist written there.
You can only dialogue when there is some element of trust in the person you
are dialoguing with. The problem is that neither this Roman Catholic pope,
nor the Vatican in general, has shown any consistent behavior towards the
Orthodox Catholic Church other than opportunistic activities to the benefit
of Roman Catholicism. They do take advantage of the less than warm
relations that exist between the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church
and the Ecumenical Patriarch, for example.
Principles mean something only if you are principled. The current Roman
Catholic pope and his organization has to date not shown to the Orthodox
Catholic Church that they are principled. So guidelines mean little to
nothing if you can't trust them based on their current and prior behavior.
Evan
Leonid Popov
more and more. It fights for its market.
--
Best Regards,
Leonid Popov, St.Petersburg, Russia.
"ValuedCustomer" <bitb...@devnull.com> wrote in message
news:Se8a8.64615$th4.20...@news02.optonline.net...
> There are Russian Orthodox churches all over in the US and you don't hear
> the Pope whining about them.
>
> If the religion is not strong enough to stand on its own merit, then it
has
> reason to be worried about another religion's encroachment.
[skipped]
ValuedCustomer
Donalds?
"Leonid Popov" <leonid...@atbusiness.com> wrote in message
news:a4b8tl$brk$1...@news.sovam.com...
Tomcat
Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden <kath_pfarr_r...@t-online.de> пишет в
Russia is the canonical territory of the Orthodox Church.
Germani, as I know is the territory of Roman Catholic Chirch that was
wrecked by Protestant Reformation. This problem has not any relation with
Catholic proselytism in Russia and Ukraine.
Such Catholic behaviour conflicts with Apostolic regulations.
Demagogy about "freedom of religion" leave to yourself - it is irrelevant
here. Especially in connetion with such agressive doctrines as
"Evangelization" and Ecumenism.
: I can not see a unfriendly act. We have here in Germany many Orthodox
Leonid Popov
> In that case, maybe they should worry more about the Russian mafia or Mc
> Donalds?
What for? Neither mafia nor McDonalds play on the market of beleif.
JOH...@webtv.net
The Patriarch convinces the city govt. of Moscow that the Salvation Army
is Para military organisation plotting against Russia. The Patriarch
contunualy opposes the Jehovah whitness's. The Patriarch makes
statements saying that western style "Freedom of Relgion " is not
possible in Russia.
The Patriarch supports restrictive laws that discriminate against
Catholics and Protestants.
The Patriarch pushs for the restoration of State Religion status that
the Russian Church had under the Romanovs and Stalin.
Marina
So far, you are just mnaking unfounded accusations and slanderous ones at
that.
What EVIDENCE have you got of the Patriarch doing these things? Are they
documents, speeches? What?
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20470-3C...@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> O.K. Marina.
> The Patriarch convinces the city govt. of Moscow that the Salvation Army
> is Para military organisation plotting against Russia. The Patriarch
> contunualy opposes the Jehovah whitness's
Where are these STATEMENTS?
You have still failed to provide EVIDENCE -
It's easy to accuse - but back it up with FACTS - so far you haven't given
any.
JOH...@webtv.net
When Communsm fell the Catholic church moved quickly to restore its
organisation in former Communist countries .So that in case of a
reversion to old habits the church would be prepared.
Except in Russia,in Russia because the Pope wanted to be sensitive to
Russian feelings she created a hybrid organisation,that satisfied no
one. Designed to be understanding of RO feelings it even neglected
some Catholics interests.
It was a waste of time.The paranoia of the Moscow Patriarchate made all
the Popes attempts at reasonableness useless.
His restrictions on the Catholic church in Russia only hurt
Catholics.
JOH...@webtv.net
The Doctrine of " Canonical teritory" is a 2 edged sword.
If Catholic churchs in Russia violate the Russian churchs rights? what
do RO churchs in Italy do? or in Mexico or the Phillipines.
JOH...@webtv.net
The Pope has bent over backwards to accomodate the Patriarch of
Moscow.
He placed restrictions on the Catholic church in Russia that exiist no
where else.
He allowed Catholic charities to help Orthodox institutions.
He did not immediately restore The traditional church structure in
Russia.
The Majority of Catholics in Russia are there because of the Communist
govt.s wars of aggression.
He even ignored the Rights of the Russian Rite Catholic church all to
get along with the Patriarch.It was all useless!!!!
Evan
organization
> more and more. It fights for its market.
And parents would look like "a commercial organization" also to you if they
try to protect their children?
Evan
Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden
>
> "Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden" <kath_pfarr_r...@t-online.de> wrote in
> message news:3C685B82...@t-online.de...
>
> > It is clear, that the position of Russian Orthodox Church after the
> > years under sovjet oppression is difficult, but it is not good for the
> > future to struggle with windmills wings (as we say in German). It would
> > be better to discuss together, to find compromises and in the future
> > even to cooperate.
>
> The problem is that there is little to nothing to discuss.
>
> The Roman Catholic Church had a number of dioceses in Tsarist Russia, but
> they were linked to geography (areas that were once under Poland, etc). Now
> that isn't the case.
It isn't the problem of catholic church, that the oppression of Stalin
had the result, that catholics were dispersed in all Russia.
> The Roman Catholic Church has both created many of the problems in the
> Ukraine as well as fuels the fire there.
That there are three Orthodox Churches is not a act of the catholic
Church.
> That is where you have seen the
> pope say one thing and do another. Given the chance what makes one think
> that the Vatican won't do the same things where it can within Russia between
> the Orthodox Catholics there (that wedge, of course, provided by the ROCOR
> when she opted to try to divide the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia).
This is also not a problem of Catholic Church. ROCOR operates not by
remote control
for Vatican.
> The Roman Catholic pope says that we are "sister churches". If you want to
> promote that idea, you don't do things that make you appear to be poaching
> the flock of your "sister church". I personally believe that Cardinal
> Ratzinger was most correct when he said that we were NOT "sister churches".
This is not correct. Cardinal Ratzinger distinguishs precise
between Othodox and Protestant Churches.
> Comments that the Roman Catholic pope did not correct, and in fact, seems to
> follow, regardless of what else he may say (which is the common practice
> that we see of speaking out of both sides of his mouth).
>
> The Roman Catholic pope says that we are two lungs. The problem there is
> that the Uniates see themselves as the "other lung". No one corrects them
> so one can only conclude that we are not really the "other lung". Again,
> depending upon which side of his mouth he is speaking out of, we really
> don't know where Roman Catholicism stands.
>
> > Pope John Paul II. has edited some principles for the Evangelization and
> > Ecumenism in Former Soviet Territories
> > (http://home.t-online.de/home/niko.wy/fsoviete.htm). Only in dialog can
> > I say: Do you really do, what ist written there.
>
> You can only dialogue when there is some element of trust in the person you
> are dialoguing with. The problem is that neither this Roman Catholic pope,
> nor the Vatican in general, has shown any consistent behavior towards the
> Orthodox Catholic Church other than opportunistic activities to the benefit
> of Roman Catholicism. They do take advantage of the less than warm
> relations that exist between the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church
> and the Ecumenical Patriarch, for example.
The problem is, that the Pope has to consider the Catholic faithful, who
expect him to establish pastoral care. Because the Orthodox Hierarchs
turned him down, he has to take action. At last nobody is a winner -
therefore it is no other way, but dialog and to make compromises.
> Principles mean something only if you are principled. The current Roman
> Catholic pope and his organization has to date not shown to the Orthodox
> Catholic Church that they are principled. So guidelines mean little to
> nothing if you can't trust them based on their current and prior behavior.
>
> Evan
--
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Hmm, and you look to Alexey the KGBist as to a protecting father?
Angantyr
"Igor R. Boyko" <bo...@mail.cern.ch> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.3.95a.10202...@pcjinr02.cern.ch...
должны защитить ее. Россия - наша мать.
Пол.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> .................................................
>
> The Roman Catholic Church has both created many of the problems in the
> Ukraine as well as fuels the fire there. That is where you have seen the
> pope say one thing and do another. Given the chance what makes one think
> that the Vatican won't do the same things where it can within Russia between
> the Orthodox Catholics there (that wedge, of course, provided by the ROCOR
> when she opted to try to divide the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia).
Please detail for me what problems you accuse the Catholic Church of creating
in Ukraine and what fires it is fueling there, and how.
> ...........................................................
>
> follow, regardless of what else he may say (which is the common practice
> that we see of speaking out of both sides of his mouth).
Yes the Pope does speak out of both sides of his mouth! :)
He suffers from Parkinsons disease but is not paralyzed on one side of his
face as for example is Mr. Chretien, the prime minister of Canada.
So what?
> .............................................................
>
> You can only dialogue when there is some element of trust in the person you
> are dialoguing with. The problem is that neither this Roman Catholic pope,
> nor the Vatican in general, has shown any consistent behavior towards the
> Orthodox Catholic Church
Please point out what you see as inconsistancies.
> other than opportunistic activities to the benefit of Roman Catholicism.
Such as?
> They do take advantage of the less than warm
> relations that exist between the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church
> and the Ecumenical Patriarch, for example.
Please provide these examples of the less that warm relations ...
and the advantage that the Roman Catholic Church has managed to take of
them
> .....................................
>
>
> Evan
deacon.gregory
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20469-3C6...@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Marina
> When Communsm fell the Catholic church moved quickly to restore its
> organisation in former Communist countries .
under communism, supporting the Nazis. Shame is not been able to sustain its
support in places like Africa, the Roman Catholic Missions have more or less
deserted these areas, seems like easy pickings the Roman Church is after
every time.
Deacon Gregory
deacon.gregory
maybe it needs to get its house in order there before anywhere else.
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20470-3C...@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
JCarew
"deacon.gregory" wrote in message
>
> <JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>>Marina
>>When Communism fell the Catholic church moved
>>quickly to restore its organization in former
>>Communist countries .
>snip<
>Shame is not been able to sustain its support in places
>like Africa, the Roman Catholic Missions have more
>or less deserted these areas, seems like easy pickings
>the Roman Church is after every time.
Not true the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church
in Africa is turning from being a missionary
Church to an indigenous Church the number
of seminarians has trebled over the past two
decades. See below:
Subject: New Statistics for Catholics World Wide
Date: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:28 PM
EWTN News Story, 11-Feb-2002
VATICAN CITY, (Zenit.org).- The latest "Annuario Pontificio" reports
there are more diocesan priests, fewer religious priests, and about
the same number of Catholics worldwide, compared with a year earlier.
According to the 2002 pontifical yearbook, which was presented to John
Paul II on Saturday, there are 1.05 billion baptized Catholics in the
world, 17.3% of the population.
Of the Catholics, 49.4% are in the Americas, while 26.7% are in Europe.
This percentage decreased to 12.4% in Africa, 10.7% in Asia, and 0.8%
in Oceania.
In comparing 1999 and 2000, the Church has 189 more priests in absolute
terms, thanks to an increase of 789 more diocesan priests. The number of
priests in religious orders and congregations fell by 600.
The yearbook indicates a turnaround in the crisis of priestly vocations,
reflected in the increase of seminarians (students of philosophy and
theology) over the past two decades. Their total number increased by
73.1%, rising from 63,882 in 1978 to 110,583 in 2000.
The most significant growth was recorded in Africa, where the number of
seminarians trebled. The increase in Asia and the Americas was 125% and
65%, respectively. Europe saw a 12% increase.
Among the other data:
--4,092,725 consecrated individuals are dedicated full-time to
evangelization: 4,541 bishops, 405,178 priests (including 265,781
diocesan), 27,824 permanent deacons, 55,057 professed religious who are
not priests, 801,185 professed women religious, 30,687 members of secular
institutes, 126,365 lay missionaries, and 2,641,888 catechists.
--over the past year 161 new bishops were appointed.
--the Vatican has diplomatic relations with 174 states.
End of quote
From 1998 the Catholic Church
in Africa has gone from 107 million to
116 million in 2001(includes all
Catholic rites).
From the Catholic Almanacs for
1998 and 2001
Jim Carew sfo
firefly
The same go in the USA, because there is many garbage religions
they don't like the nice Catholic one.
firefly
Evan wrote:
> Protect from what?
>
Steve Hayes
>Catholic dioceses in Russia are "unfriendly act" - Moscow Patriarchate
>
>MOSCOW. Feb 11 (Interfax) - The establishment of Catholic dioceses on the
>territory of Russia puts off a possible meeting between Patriarch of Moscow
>and all Russia Alexy II and Pope John Paul II, spokesman for the Russian
>Orthodox Church Igor Vyzhanov has told Interfax.
> He referred to the statement of Holy See press secretary Joaquin
>Navarro-Vals that the Vatican would upgrade the status of its institutions
>in Russia.
Are there any Orthodox dioceses or bishops in Italy?
How does their status compare with the previous or proposed status of the
proposed Catholic bishops in Russia?
--
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Marina
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20469-3C6...@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Marina
> It was a waste of time.The paranoia of the Moscow Patriarchate made all
> the Popes attempts at reasonableness useless.
What paranoia? Give evidence.
> His restrictions on the Catholic church in Russia only hurt
> Catholics.
What restrictions? Give evidence for your claims!
Deloni
understand it.
--
Deloni, SPb, Russia
"Evan" <ekal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Egda8.416$eS3....@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Deloni
news:a4c350$1dbm6m$1...@ID-82146.news.dfncis.de...
> > А разве не сказано подставить другую щеку?
> >
> Если мужчина насилует нашу мать, должен мы подставить другую щеку? Нет мы
> должны защитить ее. Россия - наша мать.
>
> Пол.
Вы говорите с позиции нормального взрослого мужчины. Это похвально. Но речь
не о вас, а о Церкви, которая по определению должна руководствоваться
законом Божиим. Христос что говорил? Не претендуя на буквальную точность,
напомню: "Если тебя ударили по одной щеке, подставь вторую. Если грабитель
требует с тебя рубашку, отдай и штаны." Экстраполируя на ваш пример,
получаем нечто вроде "Если мужчина насилует твою мать, подставь и свое
очко." Извините за грубость.
Да и не в РПЦ Россия.
--
Deloni, SPb, Russia
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On 11 Feb 2002 12:37:53 -0800, vikol...@aol.com (Viktor Olevich) wrote:
>
> >Catholic dioceses in Russia are "unfriendly act" - Moscow Patriarchate
> >
> >MOSCOW. Feb 11 (Interfax) - The establishment of Catholic dioceses on the
> >territory of Russia puts off a possible meeting between Patriarch of Moscow
> >and all Russia Alexy II and Pope John Paul II, spokesman for the Russian
> >Orthodox Church Igor Vyzhanov has told Interfax.
> > He referred to the statement of Holy See press secretary Joaquin
> >Navarro-Vals that the Vatican would upgrade the status of its institutions
> >in Russia.
>
> Are there any Orthodox dioceses or bishops in Italy?
>
> How does their status compare with the previous or proposed status of the
> proposed Catholic bishops in Russia?
>
But would that not depend strictly on the administrative actions taken by
the Orthodox denomination involved. I.e. why would the Vatican have anything
to say about an Orthodox diocese, bishopric, or even patriarchate?
The Vatican might comment if the patriach of the Russian Orthodox Church or
the patriarch of Constantinopole decided to move to someplace in Italy or
to Jerusalem etc. But I doubt if there would be any possible steps taken
to influence such a move.
Igor R. Boyko
>> >Справедливость я вижу в решительном противодействии Ватикану,
>> >его акциям в России.
>> >А позицию "не дай Бог не обидьте католиков" мы не
>> >приемлем, они к нам всегда были беспощадны, как и жиды,
>>
>> А разве не сказано подставить другую щеку?
>>
>Если мужчина насилует нашу мать, должен мы подставить другую щеку? Нет мы
>должны защитить ее.
Это жиды так считали, око за око.
А Иисус сказал, "а я говорю вам - подставь другую щеку".
>Россия - наша мать.
kirill
>
> On 11 Feb 2002 12:37:53 -0800, vikol...@aol.com (Viktor Olevich) wrote:
>
> >Catholic dioceses in Russia are "unfriendly act" - Moscow Patriarchate
> >
> >MOSCOW. Feb 11 (Interfax) - The establishment of Catholic dioceses on the
> >territory of Russia puts off a possible meeting between Patriarch of Moscow
> >and all Russia Alexy II and Pope John Paul II, spokesman for the Russian
> >Orthodox Church Igor Vyzhanov has told Interfax.
> > He referred to the statement of Holy See press secretary Joaquin
> >Navarro-Vals that the Vatican would upgrade the status of its institutions
> >in Russia.
>
> Are there any Orthodox dioceses or bishops in Italy?
>
> How does their status compare with the previous or proposed status of the
> proposed Catholic bishops in Russia?
The Russian Orthodox church operating outside Russia serves the
ex-pat community. There is no effort to try to convert Catholics
or other Christians. Clearly the same cannot be said for the
Catholic church. The Vatican is still on its 1000 year old crusade
against the east.
Angantyr
"kirill" <kir...@university.edu> wrote in message
news:3C6A8DD4...@university.edu...
> Steve Hayes wrote:
> >
> > On 11 Feb 2002 12:37:53 -0800, vikol...@aol.com (Viktor Olevich)
wrote:
> >
> > >Catholic dioceses in Russia are "unfriendly act" - Moscow Patriarchate
> > >
> > >MOSCOW. Feb 11 (Interfax) - The establishment of Catholic dioceses on
the
> > >territory of Russia puts off a possible meeting between Patriarch of
Moscow
> > >and all Russia Alexy II and Pope John Paul II, spokesman for the
Russian
> > >Orthodox Church Igor Vyzhanov has told Interfax.
> > > He referred to the statement of Holy See press secretary Joaquin
> > >Navarro-Vals that the Vatican would upgrade the status of its
institutions
> > >in Russia.
> >
> > Are there any Orthodox dioceses or bishops in Italy?
> >
> > How does their status compare with the previous or proposed status of
the
> > proposed Catholic bishops in Russia?
>
> The Russian Orthodox church operating outside Russia serves the
> ex-pat community. There is no effort to try to convert Catholics
> or other Christians.
Anecdotally, at my church, virtually everyone is of Russian descent (and
about 90% actually born in Russia) and everyone speaks Russian. I am the
only convert in the entire church. The church did not seek me out, I sought
out the church.
Paul.
Blair Sheridan
Dmitri Matskevitch
"Igor R. Boyko" <bo...@mail.cern.ch> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.3.95a.10202...@pcjinr02.cern.ch...
А Иисус - не жид, что ли?
--
_________________
Дмитрий Мацкевич
Angantyr
"Igor R. Boyko" <bo...@mail.cern.ch> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.3.95a.10202...@pcjinr02.cern.ch...
Никогда не правильно защитить?
>
> >Россия - наша мать.
>
Marina
"ValuedCustomer" <bitb...@devnull.com> wrote in message
news:Se8a8.64615$th4.20...@news02.optonline.net...
> There are Russian Orthodox churches all over in the US and you don't hear
> the Pope whining about them.
>
>
Is the US a 'Catholic' country?
!!!
Marina
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20470-3C...@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Cater to Russian immigrants?
>
Evan
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C696C81...@bellsouth.net...
> Hmm, and you look to Alexey the KGBist as to a protecting father?
The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church has a responsibility for the
souls that have been entrusted to him.
Evan
Evan
"firefly" <hvi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3C69C361...@worldnet.att.net...
> Protect from what?
Protect those within the Church from being mislead or misguided to someplace
outside of the Church and away from Christ.
Evan
Evan
"Deloni" <p...@chat.ru> wrote in message news:a4d2hr$kdl$1...@news.sovam.com...
> If you lived in Russia and saw what is going with the church, you could
> understand it.
Been there, did that and have the T-shirt.
Are there things that I could be critical about? Sure. Just as there are
things that go on in the States that I could be critical about.
But for every critical comment that I could make I also saw a hundred or a
thousand things that I thank God about.
Evan
Evan
> It isn't the problem of <roman>catholic church, that the oppression of
Stalin
> had the result, that <roman>catholics were dispersed in all Russia.
All peoples were dispersed. Orthodox Catholics were also dispersed to areas
that did not have a church also, or to places that the church was closed,
torn down or used for other purposes. Orthodox Catholics fled to other
countries where the communists did not control the territory. also due to
the oppression of Stalin, and it wasn't the problem of the Russian Orthodox
Church. They still are there, including places such as Italy, etc., where
the administration of those parishes are not by local bishops. If we want
to take the same tact then we should divide up Italy and a host of other
countries into assorted Orthodox Catholic dioceses. We haven't. But
perhaps we should.
> That there are three Orthodox Churches is not a act of the <roman>catholic
> Church.
It may not have been an act of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Roman
Catholic Church uses anything that will benefit her and nationalism is just
one of those tools that are being used in the Ukraine.
> This is also not a problem of <roman>Catholic Church. ROCOR operates not
by
> remote control
> for Vatican.
And again, of course *nothing* is the problem of the Roman Catholic Church,
but that doesn't prevent it from using anything to it's advantage. Within
Russia, herself, I do fault the ROCOR for giving the Vatican another soft
spot to try to drive a wedge that will only benefit the Vatican. I am not
faulting the Vatican for taking advantage of that soft spot, regardless of
how un-Christian the Vatican's actions may be.
I said:
> > The Roman Catholic pope says that we are "sister churches". If you want
to
> > promote that idea, you don't do things that make you appear to be
poaching
> > the flock of your "sister church". I personally believe that Cardinal
> > Ratzinger was most correct when he said that we were NOT "sister
churches".
You replied:
> This is not correct. Cardinal Ratzinger distinguishs precise
> between Othodox and Protestant Churches.
You are mistaken. Ratzinger stated that the Orthodox Catholic Church is not
a "sister church" to Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism is the "mother
church" that has no "sisters". Of course, Ratzinger has the wrong notion
that the Roman Catholic Church is somehow not just the Church at Rome but is
the Catholic Church. Therefore Ratzinger, wrongfully equates the Roman
Catholic Church, or the Church at Rome as THE Catholic church when he states
that there are no sisters to it. Since his incorrect theology has the
approval of the roman catholic pope, who also shares that wrong belief, I
will stand by what I said when I said that Ratzinger doesn't not share the
idea that we are "sister churches".
> The problem is, that the Pope has to consider the <Roman>Catholic
faithful, who
> expect him to establish pastoral care. Because the Orthodox Hierarchs
> turned him down, he has to take action. At last nobody is a winner -
> therefore it is no other way, but dialog and to make compromises.
It is always a one way street, isn't it? Either do what the roman catholic
pope says or else. That is how dialogue is understood by Roman Catholics, I
guess. Lacking from all of this is any dialogue and compromise. As I said,
it is always a one way street. It is never the fault of Roman Catholicism,
is it. No, I didn't think so.
Evan
P. Skovorodkin
Девы.
А жиды нонешние к евреям Библии никакого отношения не имеют.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
There has been some question on how to make him accept the
responsibility for his part of what happened to some Russian souls
because he reported to the KGB.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
How are your two claims connected?
mp del norte
Врете вы, Бойко (признайтесь, что вы и детандер сперли).
Иисус сказал: "не мир принес я вам, а меч". А про другую щеку - это
чтоб с друг другом не дрались.
Усп. (ТМ)
МП
JOH...@webtv.net
The RO church in Mexico uses the Image of "Our Lady of
Guadalupe " how many Russian immigrants are iterested in O.L. Of
Guadalupe .
Marina
otherwise known as "Panagia Hodegetria"
After all, it is the same Mother of God, and one that is 'native' to their
adopted countyry!
Here, the Orthodox have a chapel at Walsingham - as well as Catholics and
Anglicans.
After all, the Mother of God does not have a nationality!!
Marina
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16177-3C...@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
JOH...@webtv.net
The record is clear and ' public '.It has been Rome that has
comprimised,it is Rome that has ignored the unfounded hostility of the
Moscow Patriarch. It is Rome that has shown sensitivity to Moscows
paranoia.
T254
>otherwise known as "Panagia Hodegetria"
Which you forgot to mention was stolen from a Greek Orthodox Church in Crete.
Also, go in any Uniate church and 99.9% of the Icons you will see are Orthodox
in origin.
Or how about the following ORTHODOX Icons that are venerated in Roman Catholic
Churches of various Rites -
Our Lady of Vladimir
Our Lady of Kazan
Our Lady of Chestihova (sp?)
Poachev Icon of the Mother of God
St Andrei Rublev's Icon of the Trinity (Hospitality of Abraham)
Just to scratch the surface. Which makes Johnny boys comment on the Icon of
Our Lady of Gaudalupe laughable.
You really have to do some more reading Johnny boy.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Viktor Olevich
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV
.c The Associated Press
MOSCOW (AP) - In a growing rift with the Vatican, the Russian Orthodox
Church has told a top papal envoy who was to visit this month that he
is no longer welcome, pointing at the pope's ``unfriendly'' decision
to set up Roman Catholic dioceses in Russia.
The Orthodox Church's chief of foreign relations, Metropolitan Kirill,
told Cardinal Walter Kasper in a letter that his visit to Russia would
be ``impossible'' at the current time, Orthodox Church spokesman Igor
Vyzhanov said Wednesday.
Kirill spoke two days after the Vatican announced its decision to
elevate the status of its four ``apostolic administrations'' in Russia
into full-fledged dioceses, a change the Russian church called part of
an effort by the Roman Catholic Church to expand its influence and
seek converts. The Vatican said it was merely meant to improve
pastoral services for Catholics in Russia.
Pope John Paul II has made the improvement of relations with Orthodox
Christians after a millennium of division a goal of his papacy, and
wants to visit Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church says that cannot
happen until relations improve - something it says can only occur if
the Roman Catholic Church stops its alleged proselytizing in Russia.
Kirill told The Associated Press Television News a meeting between
Alexy and John Paul would be ``unlikely'' until the churches, divided
since the Great Schism of 1054, solve their fundamental differences.
In a statement released Tuesday, Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch
Alexy II said the decision to create dioceses aggravated the church
conflict. ``The Vatican's action has jeopardized the ability of the
Catholic West and the Orthodox East to cooperate as two great
civilizations for the benefit of Europe and the entire world,'' he
said.
A Russian newspaper said the Vatican decision indicated that it has
lost hope of settling the dispute through dialogue and has decided to
go its own way without worrying so much about opposition from the
Russian church. ``The Vatican's move has signaled an end to its policy
of appeasement toward the Russian Orthodox Church,'' the liberal daily
Novye Izvestia said in an editorial.
The Roman Catholic Church says there are about 600,000 Catholics in
Russia today, while there were an estimated 800,000 on the territory
of modern-day Russia before the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Catholics
have pushed for the return of church property that was confiscated
during the Soviet era.
The Russian Orthodox Church does not release figures on its followers,
but Britain's Keston Institute estimates that about two-thirds of
Russia's 144 million people consider themselves Orthodox Christians.
AP-NY-02-13-02 1505EST
James Russo
Church which, according to you folks is "without grace".
Either the Orthodox in Mexico are admitting that the Holy Mother consorts
with "heretics" or they are fishing in the Roman pond.
"T254" <t2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020214165811...@mb-mf.aol.com...
T254
>with "heretics" or they are fishing in the Roman pond.
Maybe we are learning from the Romans by fishing in their pond. They have been
stealing from our pond for over a thousand years.
Bob
robert G Tallick
JCarew
"T254" <t2...@aol.com> wrote in message:
Your ducking his question. It sounds like the Orthodox
in Mexico are pandering to the citizens of Mexico for
oblivious reasons the way you describe it. Living in
an area(Southern California) with a lot of
Mexican/Americans and having been to Mexico many
times I can tell you the one thing that most Mexicans
I know seem to agree on is there veneration of Our
Lady under the title of "Our Lady of Guadalupe"
Jim Carew sfo
Marina
<JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16175-3C...@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Marina
they venerate the Mother of God.
There is ONLY ONE!
She may be given different attributes in various icons, but the Orthodox do
not venerate one icon, to the exclusion of another. They do not say specific
prayers to one of these attributes, but they say them to the Mother of God
herself.
I mean they wouldn't pray to the Mother of God of Kazan, or the Mother of
God of Walsingham, or even the Mother of God of Guadeloupe.
It may be that they have a depiction of her - as depicted locally - is in
the Church.
However, the beliefs about the Mother of God - will be Orthodox ones.
They just pray to the 'Panagia' - the 'All-Holy'
Where exactly is this Church doing these things, anyway?
Evan
> There has been some question on how to make him accept the
> responsibility for his part of what happened to some Russian souls
> because he reported to the KGB.
Only by those who have a hatred for the Russian Orthodox Church.
And their opinion, frankly, doesn't matter.
Evan
Evan
I wrote:
> > Protect those within the Church from being mislead or misguided to
someplace
> > outside of the Church and away from Christ.
You asked:
> How are your two claims connected?
Simple. Those who leave the Orthodox Catholic Church for something else
leaves Christ and His Church for something else.
His Holiness, the Patriarch, is simply trying to prevent people being
mislead or misguided into leaving Christ and His Church.
Evan
JOH...@webtv.net
If the RO church in Mexico was only for Russian immigrants.Why
adopt a native Catholic representation of the BVM.
The Catholic church uses Eastern representations because she
recognises no national boundries or Ethnic divisions.She is the
Universal Church.
T254
>adopt a native Catholic representation of the BVM.
Probably for the same reasons that Uniates use all the Orthodox Catholic
representations of the BVM Johnny boy. That was the whole point of my post.
You really should learn to read more carefully.
>The Catholic church uses Eastern representations because she
>recognises no national boundries or Ethnic divisions.She is the
>Universal Church.
And the original (Orthodox) Catholic Church isn't allowed to do the same?
Bob
robert G Tallick
Viktor Olevich
RUSSIAN CHURCH DOES NOT WANT TO SEE
CATHOLIC CARDINAL IN MOSCOW
Mir religii, 14 February 2002
The Russian Orthodox church (RPTs) officially informed the Vatican on
Wednesday that the visit to Moscow of Cardinal Walter Kasper, which was
planned for the second half of February, is undesirable. The letter sent to
the cardinal, who is the chairman of the papal Council on Cooperation for
Christian Unity, stressed that under current circumstances, "carrying out
Your Eminence's visit to Moscow for the previously agreed dates is not
possible."
The letter, signed by Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, was
sent last night, but an answer has still not come from the Vatican. As
ITAR-TASS learned at the Moscow patriarchate, "this is a normal reaction to
the unilateral steps of the Vatican in creating a centralized structure of
the Catholic church in Russia, undertaken despite the position of RPTs."
According to sources close to representatives of the Roman Catholic church
in Moscow, Cardinal Kasper's visit was scheduled independent of the decision
on establishing its dioceses in Russia and was planned within the bounds of
regular consultations between the Holy See and the government of the Russian
federation.
On Tuesday, MID of Russia expressed regret that the Vatican's latest steps
were taken without reference to the opinion of the Russian side. (tr. by
PDS, posted 15February 2002)
Gerard Serafin
wrote
> > When Communsm fell the Catholic church moved
quickly to restore its
> > organisation in former Communist countries .
> And were was the Roman Catholic Church during
the persecution of Christians
> under communism, supporting the Nazis.
No, being persecuted by the communists as she was
by the Nazis.
> Shame is not been able to sustain its
> support in places like Africa, the Roman
Catholic Missions have more or less
> deserted these areas, seems like easy pickings
the Roman Church is after
> every time.
If you look at statistics you will the phenomenal
growth of Catholicism in both Africa and Asia.
Far far beyond anything in the Orthodox missions.
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great* books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
"God does not want golden vessels
but golden hearts" (St John Chrysostom)
Gerard Serafin
>
> Are there any Orthodox dioceses or bishops in
Italy?
Yes, there are. Do a websearch and some info will
appear.
> How does their status compare with the previous
or proposed status of the
> proposed Catholic bishops in Russia?
Compares to the new status, since now the
Catholics like the Orthodox in Italy have
dioceses.
firefly
the Fat Rabi Mosse.
firefly
Gerard Serafin
MOSCOW, Feb 15, 02 (CWNews.com) -- Archbishop
Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz of
Moscow has issued a detailed formal response to
the complaints raised by
the Russian Orthodox Church regarding the
establishment of new Catholic
dioceses in Russia. The following is the full text
of the archbishop's
statement.
Declaration by Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz
1. Considering that:
-- religious communities have the right to
self-organisation according
to their own hierarchic and institutional
structures;
-- it is the duty of the Pope and the bishops of
the Catholic Church to
ensure normal conditions for pastoral care of
Catholics;
-- the normal structure of the Catholic Church
according to Canon Law is
a diocese and a ecclesiastical province
(metropolitan);
-- the act of raising of existing Apostolic
Administrations in Russia to
the rank of permanent dioceses, on February 11,
2002, did not break
Russian law;
-- this step, necessary for Catholics in Russia,
was taken after both
the Russian authorities and the hierarchy of the
Russian Orthodox Church
had been informed according to international
practice.
We are perplexed and seriously concerned about the
interference in
internal affairs of the Catholic Church in Russia
which in the past few
days has become so evident.
We are convinced that the Catholics of the Russian
Federation have the
same rights as citizen members of other religions,
and that the
legitimate exercising of these rights may not
under any circumstances be
publicly questioned, or become the object of
political speculation.
2. Moreover we feel it is our duty to publicly
confute statements
contained in the public declaration by the
Patriarch of Moscow and all
Russia Alexis II and the Holy Synod of the Russian
Orthodox Church on
February 12, 2002, which do not correspond to the
truth.
3. In the declaration it is said that the form
instituted in Russia "of
Catholic ecclesiastical life is not typical even
of Catholic countries
where there are no ecclesiastical provinces with
dioceses administered
by a Metropolitan."
This affirmation is false. The Code of Canon Law
of the Catholic Church
states that for common pastoral action of various
neighbouring dioceses,
and the more closely to foster relations between
diocesan bishops,
dioceses bordering on each other are united by the
supreme authority in
the Church in Ecclesiastical Provinces.
The head of the Ecclesiastic Province is the
Metropolitan, who is
Archbishop of his own archdiocese. The office of
Metropolitan is linked
to an Episcopal see, determined or approved by the
Roman Pontiff (cfr
Can.435). There are Archdioceses and Metropolitans
in many countries for
example the Archdioceses and Metropolitans of
Paris, Washington, Prague,
Milan, Warsaw (Poland alone has 13 archdioceses)
and also in former USSR
territories Riga, Minsk-Mogilev, Vilnius, Kaunas,
Lvov.
The other dioceses which are part of the
ecclesiastical province are
called "suffragan dioceses". The authority of the
Metropolitan in their
regard is defined by Canon Law:
-- to see that faith and ecclesiastical discipline
are carefully
observed and to notify the Roman Pontiff if there
be any abuses;
-- for a reason approved beforehand by the
Apostolic See, to conduct a
canonical visitation if the suffragan Bishop has
neglected it;
-- to appoint a diocesan Administrator of a vacant
Episcopal see when he
is not appointed within 8 days;
-- The Metropolitan has no other power of
governance over suffragan
dioceses.
4. The declaration of the Hierarchy of the Russian
Orthodox Church
states that "the territory of Russian has never
been divided into
dioceses".
We wish to recall that:
-- diocesan structures of the Catholic Church
existed in southern Russia
as early as the 14th and 15th centuries. In the
17th and 18th centuries
there existed the diocese of Smolensk;
-- the See (center) of the Archdiocese of Mogliev
was the capital of the
Russian Empire, St Petersburg, while the diocese
of Tiraspol had
Sarataov as its See. What is more in 1923 the
diocese of Vladivostok was
established. The Archbishop of Mogliev was called
Metropolitan of all
Catholic Churches in the Russian Empire;
-- since the establishing of the Archdiocese of
Mogliev, until the last
Archbishop Jan Cepljak, sentenced to death in 1923
and exiled, 27
pastors occupied the See of St Petersburg.
-- also within the present-day territory of the
Kaliningrad region the
Catholic Church had structures;
this means that within the present day boundaries
of the Russian
Federation there were Catholic dioceses, an
archdiocese which had its
Metropolitan Archbishop and suffragan dioceses.
5. Taking all that is written above into
consideration, we think that
the alteration of the status of the structures of
the Catholic Church in
Russia and the institution of an ecclesiastical
province cannot be seen
as the creation of a new Catholic structure
parallel to the Russian
Orthodox Church.
In the first place the dioceses do not bear the
name of the city in
which they have their See. We have not the
Archbishop of Moscow or for
Russia, but an Archbishop in Moscow.
In the second place the Russian Orthodox Church
has an Archbishop of
Vilnius for Lithuania, of Brussels for Belgium, of
Berlin for Germany
and no member of the Catholic Church would raise
any objection because
the appointment of archbishops is an internal
affair of the Russian
Orthodox Church which appoints its pastors
according to necessity.
In the third place the Metropolitan has no
effective power in the other
dioceses which are autonomous and are
administrated by their own
bishops.
6. The declaration in question, for the umpteenth
time, denounces
numerous episodes of missionary activity on the
part of Catholic clergy
among the Russian people. "We consider this
activity proselytism and we
continue to identify it as one of the main
obstacles to improving
relations between our Churches", the document
states.
For our part, over the last eleven years we have
repeatedly asked the
hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church to bring
to confrontation
concrete facts and begin at last to evaluate
concrete facts of Catholic
proselytism in Russia. We want to know where,
when, under which
circumstances and who has engaged or is engaging
in activity of
proselytism. Unfortunately as yet we have received
no information
whatever in this regard, just as we have received
no reply to our
invitation to sit around a table and define the
significance of the term
"proselytism".
7. Despite the tension created in relations
between the Catholic Church
and the Russian Orthodox Church I hope, and I pray
to God, that dialogue
may continue and that it may bear fruit. I am
convinced that the
Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church can
respond together to the
challenges of our day for the good of human
civilization.
Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz
Moscow, February 13, 2002
Declaration issued by the Information Center
of the Conference of Catholic Bishops of the
Russian Federation
Please quote source
Evan
"JCarew" <oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:Djja8.25446$p02.4055728272@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> Not true the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church
> in Africa is turning from being a missionary
> Church to an indigenous Church the number
> of seminarians has trebled over the past two
> decades.
Meaningless information.
If you had one in the first year and three in the next year you would have
"trebled".
Evan
Evan
"Gerard Serafin" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:ilhb8.65437$8d1.20...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
To the comment:
> And were was the Roman Catholic Church during
the persecution of Christians
> under communism, supporting the Nazis.
You replied:
> No, being persecuted by the communists as she was
> by the Nazis.
But you did forget:
And running around, arm in arm with the Fascists.
Evan
Evan
>
> Please detail for me what problems you accuse the <Roman>Catholic Church
of creating
> in Ukraine and what fires it is fueling there, and how.
We have been through this so many times. I suggest that you look through
the archives and find the many posts. It all has to do with the resolution
of what parishes would remain with the Orthodox Catholic Church and what
parishes would become Roman Catholic parishes.
> Yes the Pope does speak out of both sides of his mouth! :)
> He suffers from Parkinsons disease but is not paralyzed on one side of his
> face as for example is Mr. Chretien, the prime minister of Canada.
> So what?
Speaking out of both sides of his mouth only means that he lies. In other
words the Roman Catholic pope tells lies and has been shown to be
untrustworthy. But that is a pattern that many Roman Catholic popes have
had over the centuries so I guess you are just used to it.
> Please point out what you see as inconsistancies.
See above.
> > other than opportunistic activities to the benefit of Roman Catholicism.
>
> Such as?
See above.
> > They do take advantage of the less than warm
> > relations that exist between the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox
Church
> > and the Ecumenical Patriarch, for example.
>
> Please provide these examples of the less that warm relations ...
> and the advantage that the Roman Catholic Church has managed to take of
> them
If you have not seen the Roman Catholic pope suck up to the EP, you have not
been watching much of anything that has gone on.
Regardless, look in the archives regarding the situation in the Ukraine and
you will find over and over the tactics of the Roman Catholic church that
makes it so very untrustworthy.
Evan
Evan
For me, Bob, I just look at it as the Theotokos trying to help lead those
outside of the Church back to the Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church.
Evan
JCarew
"Evan" <ekal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message:
>"JCarew" <oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>Not true the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church
>>in Africa is turning from being a missionary
>>Church to an indigenous Church the number
>>of seminarians has trebled over the past two
>>decades.
>
>Meaningless information.
>
> If you had one in the first year and three in the
>next year you would have "trebled".
Not when you look at it in the context of the rest
of the post
see below
From: "JCarew" <oth...@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Catholic dioceses in Russia are"unfriendlyact" - Moscow
Pat...
Date: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:28 PM
"deacon.gregory" wrote in message
>
> <JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>>Marina
>>When Communism fell the Catholic church moved
>>quickly to restore its organization in former
>>Communist countries .
>snip<
>Shame is not been able to sustain its support in places
>like Africa, the Roman Catholic Missions have more
>or less deserted these areas, seems like easy pickings
>the Roman Church is after every time.
Not true the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church
in Africa is turning from being a missionary
Church to an indigenous Church the number
of seminarians has trebled over the past two
decades. See below:
Subject: New Statistics for Catholics World Wide
Date: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:28 PM
EWTN News Story, 11-Feb-2002
VATICAN CITY, (Zenit.org).- The latest "Annuario Pontificio" reports
there are more diocesan priests, fewer religious priests, and about
the same number of Catholics worldwide, compared with a year earlier.
According to the 2002 pontifical yearbook, which was presented to John
Paul II on Saturday, there are 1.05 billion baptized Catholics in the
world, 17.3% of the population.
Of the Catholics, 49.4% are in the Americas, while 26.7% are in Europe.
This percentage decreased to 12.4% in Africa, 10.7% in Asia, and 0.8%
in Oceania.
In comparing 1999 and 2000, the Church has 189 more priests in absolute
terms, thanks to an increase of 789 more diocesan priests. The number of
priests in religious orders and congregations fell by 600.
The yearbook indicates a turnaround in the crisis of priestly vocations,
reflected in the increase of seminarians (students of philosophy and
theology) over the past two decades. Their total number increased by
73.1%, rising from 63,882 in 1978 to 110,583 in 2000.
The most significant growth was recorded in Africa, where the number of
seminarians trebled. The increase in Asia and the Americas was 125% and
65%, respectively. Europe saw a 12% increase.
Among the other data:
--4,092,725 consecrated individuals are dedicated full-time to
evangelization: 4,541 bishops, 405,178 priests (including 265,781
diocesan), 27,824 permanent deacons, 55,057 professed religious who are
not priests, 801,185 professed women religious, 30,687 members of secular
institutes, 126,365 lay missionaries, and 2,641,888 catechists.
--over the past year 161 new bishops were appointed.
--the Vatican has diplomatic relations with 174 states.
End of quote
From 1998 the Catholic Church
in Africa has gone from 107 million to
116 million in 2001(includes all
Catholic rites).
From the Catholic Almanacs for
1998 and 2001
Jim Carew sfo
Gerard Serafin
> > >Either the Orthodox in Mexico are admitting
that the Holy Mother consorts
> > >with "heretics" or they are fishing in the
Roman pond.
> "T254" <t2...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > Maybe we are learning from the Romans by
fishing in their pond. They have
> been
> > stealing from our pond for over a thousand
years.
> For me, Bob, I just look at it as the Theotokos
trying to help lead those
> outside of the Church back to the Church, the
Orthodox Catholic Church.
I wonder why, though, Our Lady of Guadalupe
appeared to Catholics and her miraculous tilma is
enshrined in a Catholic church?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3C698B0E...@bellsouth.net...
> >
> > Please detail for me what problems you accuse the <Roman>Catholic Church
> of creating
> > in Ukraine and what fires it is fueling there, and how.
>
> We have been through this so many times. I suggest that you look through
> the archives and find the many posts. It all has to do with the resolution
> of what parishes would remain with the Orthodox Catholic Church and what
> parishes would become Roman Catholic parishes.
How did the parishes which were under the rule of the Moscow hierarchy
pre aprox. 1991 get to be in that position?
I know that there were some disputed cases where most of the faithful
i.e. parishioners did not wish to remain subjects of the church of Moscow
contrary to the loyal Orthodox batiushka.
But all of these cases seemed to be contested by the Moscow hierarchy
as economic contests over the parish property.
I also remember where the Moscow orthodox desecrated a historical
site with heavy construction equipment because they wanted to put
up a commemorative plaque. However that was at a site that was under
Orthodox control (not Moscow branch). So Catholics had no part in
this, except to decry the desecration on scientific and historical grounds.
>
> > Yes the Pope does speak out of both sides of his mouth! :)
> > He suffers from Parkinsons disease but is not paralyzed on one side of his
> > face as for example is Mr. Chretien, the prime minister of Canada.
> > So what?
>
> Speaking out of both sides of his mouth only means that he lies. In other
> words the Roman Catholic pope tells lies and has been shown to be
> untrustworthy. But that is a pattern that many Roman Catholic popes have
> had over the centuries so I guess you are just used to it.
>
> > Please point out what you see as inconsistancies.
>
> See above.
I see accusations and an avoidance to provide any supporting evidence.
>
>
> > > other than opportunistic activities to the benefit of Roman Catholicism.
> >
> > Such as?
>
> See above.
where?
>
>
> > > They do take advantage of the less than warm
> > > relations that exist between the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox
> > > Church and the Ecumenical Patriarch, for example.
> >
> > Please provide these examples of the less that warm relations ...
> > and the advantage that the Roman Catholic Church has managed to take of
> > them
>
> If you have not seen the Roman Catholic pope suck up to the EP, you have not
> been watching much of anything that has gone on.
>
> Regardless, look in the archives regarding the situation in the Ukraine and
> you will find over and over the tactics of the Roman Catholic church that
> makes it so very untrustworthy.
>
> Evan
But that is just the point. I do not see any actions which could be construed
as you would want to describe them. I asked for you to provide me with
these examples and why you consider them to be meant to cause problems.
You refuse. Probably because you can't defend your claims.
--Rostyk
Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden
This is not true. Many faithful (priests and lay people) were persecuted
by the Nazis. In KZ Dachau there was an own "Priests-Block". There were
martyrs in Ausschwitz, Berlin-Ploetzensee, Flossenbuerg, ...
Today many say, they could be more brave. This is incorrect. We live in
security and there is no danger and it is easy to speak free. It's out
of order to criticize people, who were afraid of KZ, dead-punishment.
Helmut Meier
--------------------------------------------------------------
Kath. Pfarramt St. Laurentius Ruhmannsfelden
E-Mail: pfarrei.ruh...@web.de
Homepage: http://kath_pfarr_ruhmannsfelden.bei.t-online.de/
--------------------------------------------------------------
Evan
> >"JCarew" <oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
> >>Not true the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church
> >>in Africa is turning from being a missionary
> >>Church to an indigenous Church the number
> >>of seminarians has trebled over the past two
> >>decades.
I said:
> >Meaningless information.
> >
> > If you had one in the first year and three in the
> >next year you would have "trebled".
To which you replied:
> Not when you look at it in the context of the rest
> of the post
>
> see below
I did and it said:
> Of the Catholics, 49.4% are in the Americas, while 26.7% are in Europe.
> This percentage decreased to 12.4% in Africa, 10.7% in Asia, and 0.8%
> in Oceania.
So you had a DECREASE in Africa, where you are claiming increases. Ok,
let's go on.
> The most significant growth was recorded in Africa, where the number of
> seminarians trebled. The increase in Asia and the Americas was 125% and
> 65%, respectively. Europe saw a 12% increase.
All it says is that "some number" trebled. If you had one and now you had
three you would have trebled, just as I said.
Meaningless information that sounds good to a Roman Catholic propagandist.
Evan
Evan
"Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden" <kath_pfarr_r...@t-online.de> wrote in
message news:3C6E3A76...@t-online.de...
Gerard Bugge wrote in reply to the comment:
> And were was the Roman Catholic Church during the persecution of
Christians
> under communism, supporting the Nazis.
"No, being persecuted by the communists as she was by the Nazis."
I added:
But you did forget:
And running around, arm in arm with the Fascists.
To this you replied:
> This is not true. Many faithful (priests and lay people) were persecuted
> by the Nazis. In KZ Dachau there was an own "Priests-Block". There were
> martyrs in Ausschwitz, Berlin-Ploetzensee, Flossenbuerg, ...
> Today many say, they could be more brave. This is incorrect. We live in
> security and there is no danger and it is easy to speak free. It's out
> of order to criticize people, who were afraid of KZ, dead-punishment.
That has nothing to do with what I said.
And let's not forget that the Orthodox Catholics were also sent to the death
camps.
But they were sent at the hands of the Nazis and by the Fascists (where the
Roman Catholic Church was the collaborator of such acts).
Evan
Evan
I wrote:
> > We have been through this so many times. I suggest that you look
through
> > the archives and find the many posts. It all has to do with the
resolution
> > of what parishes would remain with the Orthodox Catholic Church and what
> > parishes would become Roman Catholic parishes.
I again suggest that you go through the archives.
> How did the parishes which were under the rule of the Moscow hierarchy
> pre aprox. 1991 get to be in that position?
How did the Roman Catholic parishes get to be in that position pre-WWII?
> I know that there were some disputed cases where most of the faithful
> i.e. parishioners did not wish to remain subjects of the church of Moscow
> contrary to the loyal Orthodox batiushka.
Again, go back through the archives and read. You will hear all about how
the parishes were to have been allowed to decide on their own what they
wanted to be and how, when the votes went against the Roman Catholic Church,
the Roman Catholic Church used force to "correct" the problem.
> But all of these cases seemed to be contested by the Moscow hierarchy
> as economic contests over the parish property.
Really? And somehow Roman Catholicism had no interest in nor participated
in any of these as "economic contests over the parish property"? Again go
back through the archives and find out how interested in parish property the
Roman Catholic Church was and is.
> I also remember where the Moscow orthodox desecrated a historical
> site with heavy construction equipment because they wanted to put
> up a commemorative plaque. However that was at a site that was under
> Orthodox control (not Moscow branch). So <Roman>Catholics had no part in
> this, except to decry the desecration on scientific and historical
grounds.
And what site was this?
> I see accusations and an avoidance to provide any supporting evidence.
I can say the same about what you have written, but I have directed you to
the endless discussions on this that have taken place here over and over and
over here. All you have to do is a little research.
As for where to look, the following from the web site of the Russian
Orthodox Church should give you a start:
The years between late 80s and early 90s saw the worsening of the relations
between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. The main cause was the
inadmissible violent methods employed by the Greek Catholic churches to
restore their legal parish life after an "underground" existence. This
violent process was most painful for the Orthodox in Western Ukraine (Lvov,
Ternopol, Ivano-Frankovsk regions, Transcarpathia). There the tension was
such as to lead to mass disorders, clashes, seizures of the Orthodox
churches when Orthodox communities were forced out of their places of
worship; discrediting campaigns were conducted against the Orthodox of the
Moscow Patriarchate in the press; the Greek Catholic newspapers, like "Meta"
and "I Believe" would openly call them "the fifth column of Moscow", or
"agents of Russia's imperial influence".
It was necessary to exercise every possible effort to change the situation.
Unfortunately, direct contact with the Uniates was impossible, because the
Greek Catholics had left the so-called Quadrennial Commission. That
commission was formed in January 1990 and had among its members
representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, of the Roman Catholic Church, of
the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and Catholics of Eastern Rite from Western
Ukraine.
The Uniate members withdrew from the commission under the pressure of the
extremist members of the Ukrainian political movement RUKH, who promised, in
case they came to power, to take church buildings from the Orthodox and give
them over to Eastern Catholics. Therefore, they thought it unnecessary to
carry on dialogue with the Orthodox Church.
The attempts to come into contact with the local or central authorities and
to urge them to insure human rights and religious freedom, brought no
result.
The Orthodox continued to be forced out with ever growing malice. Moreover,
world public opinion was distrustful of the protests on the part of the
Moscow Patriarchate, believing that what was going on in Western Ukraine was
the reversal of historical injustice.
In such a situation it was important to do the utmost to bring it home to
public opinion, to international organizations, to Christian Churches,
including the Roman Catholic Church, that beating Orthodoxy in Western
Ukraine was not only an act of violation of human rights and religious
freedom, but also an annihilation of whatever progress the dialogue between
the Orthodox and Catholic Churches had made in the previous years. It was
essential to show that uniatism was a dangerous and unacceptable way for
achieving unity.
Unia has brought about new divisions, tearing the One Body of the Orthodox
Church. The four centuries of its maintenance have revealed it as a
dangerous form of proselytism against Orthodoxy. Human sufferings and even
bloodshed were the sad aftermath of the divisions it had caused.
At the same time, it is important to emphasize that while repudiating Unia
as a method, the Churches do not abjure people. The Greek Catholic
communities existing today, with a legal right to existence, like any other
religious organization or association, should cease to be the source of
divisions and conflicts between the Orthodox and Catholics."
Not that you will believe any of it, but you have been given a place to
start to look.
Evan
Evan
> I wonder why, though, Our Lady of Guadalupe
> enshrined in a <Roman>Catholic church?
As I said, to lead those outside of the Church to the Church, the Orthodox
Catholic Church.
The Theotokos has also appeared to the Copts in Egypt for probably the very
same reason.
Evan
Gerard Serafin
> > Of the Catholics, 49.4% are in the Americas,
while 26.7% are in Europe.
> > This percentage decreased to 12.4% in Africa,
10.7% in Asia, and 0.8%
> > in Oceania.
> So you had a DECREASE in Africa, where you are
claiming increases. Ok,
> let's go on.
The decrease is in the percentage of world
Catholics not in the numbers of Catholics in
Africa.
From 1998 the Catholic Church
in Africa has gone from 107 million to
116 million in 2001(includes all
Catholic rites).
That's an increase in two years of 9,000,000. Not
bad (considering that is far, far greater than the
total number of Orthodox in Africa, who do not
number close to a million).
> > The most significant growth was recorded in
Africa, where the number of
> > seminarians trebled. The increase in Asia and
the Americas was 125% and
> > 65%, respectively. Europe saw a 12% increase.
> All it says is that "some number" trebled. If
you had one and now you had
> three you would have trebled, just as I said.
The number is in the thousands. So it is
meaningful indeed.
Gerard Serafin
ws.com...
> The Orthodox continued to be forced out with
ever growing malice. Moreover,
> world public opinion was distrustful of the
protests on the part of the
> Moscow Patriarchate, believing that what was
going on in Western Ukraine was
> the reversal of historical injustice.
And realizing, too, that Moscow was not honest in
the reality of things (and Orthodox voices, like
Bishop Vsleslod says the violence was minimal on
the Catholic side). In fact, Moscow never
mentions this: the most ferocious battles of all
are between the divided Orthodox denominations in
Ukraine. The MP keeps mum on this in its
continual whining about the Ukrainian Catholic
Church and its imaginary violence. (Not that there
wasn't some violence; but this was settled quickly
and is a matter of the past not present).
Dushevno
The effect of the Guadalupe apparition, if genuine, was not to turn the
Native Mexicans into Roman Catholics, but into Christians -- I mean, guys,
Jesus Christ is still preached in the Roman church, right?
There are critics who claim that the whole things was fabricated <good
pun there> by the RCs to win over the Indians. I have no idea what the truth is
and frankly, it would be stupid for Orthodox to go there because a number of
our saints and miracles are impeachable, too, so the argument is inherently
divisive and fruitless.
The cloak depicts an Indian woman and reflects vestiges of symbolism
associated with an indigenous pagan goddess. At the time, the RCs wre shocked
by it because they had not yet become accustomed to depictions of the Theotokos
as non-Euro.
RCs out there: have the cloak and the image ever been subjected to the
sort of scientific scrutiny that the Shroud of Turin was? Just curious ...
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3C6DEAE7...@bellsouth.net...
>
> > How did the parishes which were under the rule of the Moscow hierarchy
> > pre aprox. 1991 get to be in that position?
>
> How did the Roman Catholic parishes get to be in that position pre-WWII?
>
Since you refuse to answer. I am forced to quess from your remark that you
mean to imply that it was by the same process.
Now all the Catholic parishes pre-WWII were, as far as I know, that way
from their initial creation. i.e. were founded that way by the faithful
parishioners and incorporated into the Ukrainian Catholic Church
administrative structure.
Are you claiming that for all the parishes under the rule of the Moscow
hierarchy pre aprox. 1991?
If not then answer my original question directly and clearly.
--Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3C6DEAE7...@bellsouth.net...
>
> > How did the parishes which were under the rule of the Moscow hierarchy
> > pre aprox. 1991 get to be in that position?
>
> How did the Roman Catholic parishes get to be in that position pre-WWII?
>
> > I know that there were some disputed cases where most of the faithful
> > i.e. parishioners did not wish to remain subjects of the church of Moscow
> > contrary to the loyal Orthodox batiushka.
>
> Again, go back through the archives and read. You will hear all about how
> the parishes were to have been allowed to decide on their own what they
> wanted to be and how, when the votes went against the Roman Catholic Church,
> the Roman Catholic Church used force to "correct" the problem.
and of course the Moscow Orthodox Church never, never, used force to keep
a parish under its control. :) whether against the wishes of parishioners who
voted pro Catholic or pro Ukrainian Orthodox Church. :)
--Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3C6DEAE7...@bellsouth.net...
>
> > I also remember where the Moscow orthodox desecrated a historical
> > site with heavy construction equipment because they wanted to put
> > up a commemorative plaque. However that was at a site that was under
> > Orthodox control (not Moscow branch). So <Roman>Catholics had no part in
> > this, except to decry the desecration on scientific and historical grounds.
>
> And what site was this?
I suggest that you look in the Archives. :)
>
> > I see accusations and an avoidance to provide any supporting evidence.
>
> I can say the same about what you have written, but I have directed you to
> the endless discussions on this that have taken place here over and over and
> over here. All you have to do is a little research.
>
--Rostyk
T254
>voted pro Catholic or pro Ukrainian Orthodox Church. :)
>--Rostyk
As Evan stated twice already since we have gone over this umpteenth times
already..... Check the archives and you will find out that thanks to the Roman
Catholic Church (Both Latin & Uniate Rites) the people never got a chance to
vate. That was the whole issue as the archives will indicate.
robert G Tallick
JCarew
"Dushevno" <dush...@aol.com> wrote in message
>RCs out there: have the cloak and the image ever
>been subjected to the sort of scientific scrutiny that
>the Shroud of Turin was? Just curious ...
Yes about 20 years ago they published a book
on there findings I used to have a copy but it
got lost in moving around over the years
Jim Carew sfo
Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden
>
> "Pfarramt Ruhmannsfelden" <kath_pfarr_r...@t-online.de> wrote in
> message news:3C6E3A76...@t-online.de...
>
> Gerard Bugge wrote in reply to the comment:
> > And were was the Roman Catholic Church during the persecution of
> Christians
> > under communism, supporting the Nazis.
> "No, being persecuted by the communists as she was by the Nazis."
>
> I added:
> But you did forget:
> And running around, arm in arm with the Fascists.
>
> To this you replied:
> > This is not true. Many faithful (priests and lay people) were persecuted
> > by the Nazis. In KZ Dachau there was an own "Priests-Block". There were
> > martyrs in Ausschwitz, Berlin-Ploetzensee, Flossenbuerg, ...
> > Today many say, they could be more brave. This is incorrect. We live in
> > security and there is no danger and it is easy to speak free. It's out
> > of order to criticize people, who were afraid of KZ, dead-punishment.
>
> That has nothing to do with what I said.
>
> And let's not forget that the Orthodox Catholics were also sent to the death
> camps.
Yes, this ist right and should never be forgotten.
> But they were sent at the hands of the Nazis and by the Fascists (where the
> Roman Catholic Church was the collaborator of such acts).
>
> Evan
This is a bad suggestion.
OK the bishops in Germany were not very brave after 1933 (before this
term they said often that Nazi-ideology is antichristian). But you have
to see that Hitler was since January 30th the government and see St.
Pauls letter to the Romans 13, 1-7. And you have to consider, that
peoples agreement to the Nazi-government encreased, when unemployment
was falling off. And to criticize the government had no response.
The bishops in Germany, and also the Vatican perhaps had made mistakes
(afterwards all people are more prudent), but never they were
collaborators.
JOH...@webtv.net
lot of Catholics in it,but.There are more Orthodox, so how is it that
the Orthodox are so illtreated by the Catholic minority?
His Blessedness The Patriarch of Constantinople is a reasonable,
inteligent,man so the fact that he is able to get along wit the Pope is
no surprise.
JOH...@webtv.net
new tone? It would seem that the Metropolitan may have new orders.
When the "Administrative districts " were created,Rome imposed
restrictions some that even harmed Catholics all to be" sensitive" to
the Russian Orthodox church.
The administrator for European Russia,the new Metropolitan.Was the most
scrupulous in enforcing Romes restrictions.For which he was criticised
by many Catholics and continualy criticised by the patriarchate.
after more than 10 years of this it would seem the policy of being "
sensitive " has shown itself a failure.
So now maybe Rome has decided that enough is enough and that there are
some people one simply cannot get along with and Alesky II
is one of them.
Evan
> The number is in the thousands. So it is
> meaningful indeed.
No where does it give a number it only says it trebled. If you go from one
to three you have "trebled".
So it may not be at all meaningful.
Evan
Evan
> OK the bishops in Germany were not very brave after 1933 (before this
> term they said often that Nazi-ideology is antichristian). But you have
> to see that Hitler was since January 30th the government and see St.
> Pauls letter to the Romans 13, 1-7. And you have to consider, that
> peoples agreement to the Nazi-government encreased, when unemployment
> was falling off. And to criticize the government had no response.
> The bishops in Germany, and also the Vatican perhaps had made mistakes
> (afterwards all people are more prudent), but never they were
> collaborators.
And again let me go back to the original exchange.
Bugge wrote:
"No, being persecuted by the communists as she was by the Nazis."
in reference to what the Roman Catholic Church was doing during the war.
I wrote:
"But you did forget:
And running around, arm in arm with the Fascists."
No go back to your reply above and try to use the word Fascists instead of
Nazi.
You can not say that the Roman Catholic Church did not collaborate with the
Fascists, since the historical fact is that it did.
That is my point. Good, bad or indifferent, the relationship between the
Roman Catholic Church and the Nazi and between the Roman Catholic Church and
the Fascists was not the same.
Evan
Evan
> Since you refuse to answer. I am forced to quess from your remark that you
> mean to imply that it was by the same process.
I am refusing to answer nothing. I simply asked, how did many, most of the
Uniate parishes in the Ukraine become Uniate/Roman Catholic parishes? Many,
most of those parishes were Orthodox Catholic parishes, part of the Russian
Orthodox Church, which were then forceably made into Roman Catholic/Uniate
parishes under the direction of Roman Catholic governments.
> Now all the <Roman>Catholic parishes pre-WWII were, as far as I know,
that way
> from their initial creation. i.e. were founded that way by the faithful
> parishioners and incorporated into the Ukrainian Catholic Church
> administrative structure.
The problem is that "as far as I know" comment is an assumption, but not the
case nor historically factual.
> Are you claiming that for all the parishes under the rule of the Moscow
> hierarchy pre aprox. 1991?
> If not then answer my original question directly and clearly.
Many/most of the parishes were Orthodox Catholic parishes, forcibly turned
into Roman Catholic parishes and then returned to the Orthodox Catholic
Church. So pre-1991 many/most of the parishes were returned to the Orthodox
Catholic Church. Were some "always" Uniate parishes? Yes. And as I have
always said, those should be returned to the Uniates. If the people want to
remain Orthodox Catholics then they should also have the right to express
their will. Those parishes stolen from the Orthodox should return to the
Orthodox. If those folks want to become Roman Catholics, they too should
have the right to decide. That was the process that was agreed to by all
sides and that was the process that the Roman Catholic Church chose to
abandon when the votes in what it thought to be "safe" areas were running
strongly in favor of remaining within the Orthodox Catholic Church.
Had the Roman Catholic pope kept his word, much of what followed never would
have gone on. So, by being dishonest the Roman Catholic pope has created a
problem that now requires the propagandists from Rome to try to convince
folks that somehow Rome is "pure" in this matter and the problem is with
those nasty Orthodox Catholics.
Evan
Evan
> > > I also remember where the Moscow orthodox desecrated a historical
> > > site with heavy construction equipment because they wanted to put
> > > up a commemorative plaque. However that was at a site that was under
> > > Orthodox control (not Moscow branch). So <Roman>Catholics had no part
in
> > > this, except to decry the desecration on scientific and historical
grounds.
I asked:
And what site was this?
You replied:
> I suggest that you look in the Archives. :)
May I ask what Roman Catholic propagandist site I should check?
Evan
Evan
news:Eevb8.66846$8d1.20...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> And realizing, too, that Moscow was not honest in
> the reality of things (and Orthodox voices, like
> Bishop Vsleslod says the violence was minimal on
> the Catholic side).
Moscow has been very honest in the reality of things.
One can almost consider the words of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom so many
years ago as prophetic when he said that Rome has no interest in unity, only
in swallowing up the Orthodox Catholic Church.
While some could say that the violence was "mininal" that also is somewhat
meaningless. A few Roman Catholic/uniate thugs enter a church, lock the
door to keep the others out, vote to remain a Roman Catholic Church and then
file the paperwork could all be done with a "minimum of violence".
> In fact, Moscow never
> mentions this: the most ferocious battles of all
> are between the divided Orthodox denominations in
> Ukraine.
Reading right from the propaganda manual, Gerry?
I hardly think that the discussions that have been held between the
Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople have been hid from
public view. Nor has the reaction of the Patriarch of Moscow to some of the
Patriarch of Constantinople's interference or possible interference has been
kept quiet. Nor has the fact that one group, the so called Kiev
Patriarchate, is headed by a defrocked bishop, unrecognized by anyone in the
Church, been kept a big secret.
Perhaps your propagandists should spend a little time learning things
instead of trying to twist reality to suit their cause. Lies and
distortions such as you presented are far too easy to disprove.
> The MP keeps mum on this in its
> continual whining about the Ukrainian Catholic
> Church and its imaginary violence. (Not that there
> wasn't some violence; but this was settled quickly
> and is a matter of the past not present).
Ah yes, a matter of the past but not the present. Yet what Stalin did
somehow is not part of the past but is the present for Roman Catholics. The
consistent double standard that Roman Catholics seem to follow all the time.
Evan
Evan
> Brothers, brothers, let's do our homework ...
> The effect of the Guadalupe apparition, if genuine, was not to turn
the
> Native Mexicans into Roman Catholics, but into Christians -- I mean, guys,
> Jesus Christ is still preached in the Roman church, right?
Never said that He wasn't.
One can only hope that it eventually leads them to the Orthodox Catholic
Church.
Evan
Dushevno
> Good, bad or indifferent, the relationship between the
>Roman Catholic Church and the Nazi and between the Roman Catholic Church and
>the Fascists was not the same.
Brother, hit a dictionary.The Nazis were a German brand of fascism.
A.L.