Orthodox Priest on War in Iraq
Ephrem Bensusan
situation at this moment that threatens to undermine the very basis of
Christian values. Therefore I feel it is my duty as an Orthodox priest
to stand up in defence of honour, courage and sacrifice.
Why is there opposition to a war in Iraq? Because war and killing are
evil? Yes.
But if we look behind the façade of the peace movement in the USA and
Europe, we see the usual left-wing agitators stirring up the people, as
did the revolutionaries in Russia in 1905 and later. It is the same
people or rather the same ideology that would replace God with man.
These very same people are capable of killing when it serves their
purpose. They are ruthless as history testifies.
Of course not all the peaceniks have a special agenda. There are many
who equate peace with comfort and domestic security. Who wants a war?
What will happen to my job, my investments etc? These are like the
domestic rabbits that are being fattened for the slaughter. Having
been fed a diet of socialist propaganda they are unable to see the
implications of the left-wing agenda. For many of these ‘ordinary’
folk, it will come as a great shock when masters of the left show their
true face. By that time it will be too late.
Already the traditional family is being threatened by same-sex
marriages. Everywhere basic decency has been replaced by a
lavender-tinted immorality, which has even penetrated the Church.
War is evil. But it is necessary when peace and good order are
threatened. This basic fact has been glossed over by years of leftist
propaganda in the media and especially in education.
No longer the transmission of the body of knowledge, education has been
used as a brainwashing tool to teach an anti-Christian and amoral
philosophy. The Holy City of Jerusalem has been replaced with the
Liberated City of Sodom.
And do not think for one moment that we as Orthodox Christians have not
been touched or influenced by these seeds of secularism. Even in the
Church, today there are many who have become totally secularized,
thinking that they can indeed serve God and Mammon.
St John the Baptist when asked by the soldiers what should they do,
answered: “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content
with your wages.” (Luke 3: 14).
St John did not tell the soldiers to lay down their arms.
Pacifism is not a Christian principle. St Sergei of Radonezh blessed
the soldiers before they went into battle. During the combat the saint
prayed for the souls who died bravely fighting against the Tartars.
St Nikolai of Japan blessed the Orthodox soldiers in the Japanese Army
before they fought the Russians. For this the Tsar decorated St Nikolai
for defending his adopted country. During WW2, the late Archbishop
Anthony of San Francisco served in the trenches with the Serbian Army.
He ministered to the wounded and dying, not just in the safety of the
Field Hospital, but in the trenches. It is said that he was communing a
dying soldier when a bullet glanced off the chalice. What did Fr
Anthony do? He did not run off and seek cover. He continued his
prayers and then only then did he retreat to safety.
And what of Vanya, a lieutenant in the Polish Army at Monte Casino? He
prayed that he would not have to kill anyone during combat. God heard
his prayer.
Single-handed he stormed a German machine-gun nest and took the enemy
prisoner. He told me that he fired into the air, hoping that he would
not hurt anyone. The surprised Germans gave up without a fight. Vanya
was decorated for bravery. Later St John of Shanghai awarded him a
gramota for loyal service to the Church as choirmaster and warden. I
had the honour of knowing this brave ‘pacifist’!
Of course these values are totally lost on a generation that has been
brought up on left-wing history texts. Should a boy show any signs of
manhood, he is immediately referred to the shrink for a course of
Ritalin. If this fails, he is made a pariah in our effeminate
hedonistic society.
When the Russian writer Solzhenitsyn first came to the west, he warned
us that what had happened in Russia would happen on American soil. At
that time I thought that what he was predicting was far-fetched
nonsense. Today I think differently.
The forces of the antichrist have already gathered in Europe and are
making their demands known.
Was Europe founded on sodomy and immorality? Was western civilization
the product of socialist serfdom and godless humanism? No. Europe was
founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition.
America too was established by God-fearing men who founded that great
nation on the basic Christian values, paying tribute to the virtues of
sacrifice, honour and courage. Now we are being told that this is all
bigotry and we have to consider other religions. We must not offend
others with the truth. Not that the left cares about religion. The
left hates absolutes except in its own godless religion of socialism.
When I see the ‘No War’ stickers, I wonder whether these people driving
their SUVs would start riding bicycles to avoid our need for oil. Would
they stop flying in jets? Do they ever consider the brave men and women
who gave their lives for the peace we enjoy?
Perhaps we as Orthodox Christians are waging a rear-guard action.
Nevertheless it is our duty to sacrifice ourselves as did those before
us for what is true, honest, just, pure, is lovely, or of good report..
(Phil 4: 8)
Fr Serafim
Mike Craney
Mike
"Ephrem Bensusan" <jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:AKmdnY41q8R...@comcast.com...
AGGreen
Al
"Ephrem Bensusan" <jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:AKmdnY41q8R...@comcast.com...
nicknospamcobb
AGGreen
viewpoint exactly like yours. Pretty darn pompous of you!!
"nicknospamcobb" <nickn...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:3E8117DE...@cris.com...
Ephrem Bensusan
Zaph'enath
> As you know, I try not comment on current events, but we have a
> situation at this moment that threatens to undermine the very basis of
> Christian values. Therefore I feel it is my duty as an Orthodox priest
> to stand up in defence of honour, courage and sacrifice.
It is apparent that he thinks that is what he is doing...
>
> Why is there opposition to a war in Iraq? Because war and killing are
> evil? Yes.
>
> But if we look behind the façade of the peace movement in the USA and
> Europe, we see the usual left-wing agitators stirring up the people, as
> did the revolutionaries in Russia in 1905 and later. It is the same
> people or rather the same ideology that would replace God with man.
That is a horribly offensive statement to make. I'm sure this priest is
speaking from a sense of good intention, but he is being very sloppy in
his rhetoric. It is my love of God, and for God's commandments that
motivates me to speak out against this war.
>
> These very same people are capable of killing when it serves their
> purpose. They are ruthless as history testifies.
Now he's making logical leaps. He first asserts some connection between
modern peace activists and Bolsheviks, then utterly fails to provide any
basis for the assertion. Then he leaps past his unsupported assertion
to make further unsupported assertions of ruthlessness.
>
> Of course not all the peaceniks have a special agenda.
Peaceniks? An Orthodox priest is throwing around derogatory epithets?
> There are many
> who equate peace with comfort and domestic security. Who wants a war?
> What will happen to my job, my investments etc?
What? Has he seen the people who are protesting? Men, women, children,
old people... Most of them risking jail time, many of them getting it.
This is the least comfortable position to take right now. Not only
that, but you get called names by the pro-war crowd, and called a
traitor by members of an administration that would make dissent a crime.
And for what? Excercising their right and duty to voice protest in
what is still supposed to be a democracy.
> These are like the
> domestic rabbits that are being fattened for the slaughter. Having
> been fed a diet of socialist propaganda they are unable to see the
> implications of the left-wing agenda.
What socialist propaganda? The closest thing we have here is Pacifica
radio. And even they fall short of actual socialism. What
conservatives call "left" over here is considered conservative by the
rest of the (non-Islamic) world.
And why doesn't he cry about the capitalist "propaganda" that is the
meat and bones of public education in the US? If we are going to pick
on a modern economic theory, why is socialism any worse in Christian
terms than capitalism? Just because we have grown up with it, it is not
valid to assume a normality for capitalism, from which socialism is an
ungodly aberration. Was it Orthodox Christians that developed
Capitalism? No, it was Dutch bankers and Enlightenment Deists. I'm not
asserting that you can't be a capitalist and be a Christian; but jeez,
let's get a clear head! Christians seemed to get along fine for the
fist 1700 years or so without capitalism.
The frequency with which I have heard the neo-conservatives in this NG
refer to the "agenda" of the liberals reminds me of something I kept
running across when I was a recovering "Scientific Creationist." Folks
like Duane Gish and Kent Hovind were always talking about the
"evolutionist agenda," trying somehow to link it with atheism,
homosexuality, communism, the boogey man... When all there were were
various scientists from diverse fields like biology, geology, etc. doing
their work, and reporting their findings. Meanwhile, the Scientific
Creationists had folks like Phil Johnson and Bill Dembski creating the
"Wedge Strategy," in which they clearly layed out their plan to inject
their brand of theism into every sector of society, from government to
education, to science. They even outlined their five, ten, twenty, and
twenty-five year goals! It seems to me that the folks who cry "agenda"
the loudest are often simply expressing their fear that the "the enemy"
is up to the same tricks they are.
> For many of these ‘ordinary’
> folk, it will come as a great shock when masters of the left show their
> true face. By that time it will be too late.
Masters? I'll give him this much, he makes up for in dramatic flair
what he lacks in logic. I'm sure his sermons are very entertaining.
>
> Already the traditional family is being threatened by same-sex
> marriages.
...because if the secular government allows for same-sex couples to have
civil unions, husbands will be forced to divorce their wives, and
fathers will be forced to abandon their children. Oh, think thats
absurd? I agree.
Why do we care what others do? Has anyone noticed that it is legal to
eat meat during Lent? Has anyone noticed that it is perfectly legal to
never go to Confession for your whole life? We better get crackin' on
writing some new laws, eh.
> Everywhere basic decency has been replaced by a
> lavender-tinted immorality, which has even penetrated the Church.
It looks like the fundamentalist protestant drive to make everyone else
behave like us has also penetrated the Church. Considering the fact
that there is immorality where ther is sin, and the Church has never
been free of sin, I think that protestantism is the worse of the two
internal threats to Orthodoxy.
>
> War is evil. But it is necessary when peace and good order are
> threatened. This basic fact has been glossed over by years of leftist
> propaganda in the media and especially in education.
I work at a high school. Trust me, it is anything but leftist. I know
a 6th grade teacher who just completed the state-required section on
Moses and the Hebrew captivity in Egypt in her social studies class. It
was being taught as plain history. Since even most Biblical scholars
don't treat it in so simplistic a manner, this can be seen as a direct
religious influence in public education.
>
> No longer the transmission of the body of knowledge,
You have to realize how really humorous this sounds from the standpoint
of anthropology. It has _never_ been just the transmission of a body of
knowledge. The purpose of education in _any_ society is to socialize
the young into the values and worldview that will make them normal
members of society. Things like Math, Reading, etc, are just
periferals. The upper class, like always, makes sure that their young
are effectively educated, no matter the state of public education. Or,
at least they try.
Though, when first instituted, our public education system was a very
progressive notion. I mean, all societies have mechanisms of
socialization, but not all of them include the "Three-Rs". Kudos to the
founding fathers on that one. Of course, we've been outdone by Japan
and most of Europe now. It was nice of us to give them the idea, though.
> education has been
> used as a brainwashing tool to teach an anti-Christian and amoral
> philosophy. The Holy City of Jerusalem has been replaced with the
> Liberated City of Sodom.
Where does he live? Las Vegas? Granted, I live in one of the most
conservative areas of the entire nation. Here, you're considered a
leftist if you read something not published by Crossways or Zondervan.
>
> And do not think for one moment that we as Orthodox Christians have not
> been touched or influenced by these seeds of secularism. Even in the
> Church, today there are many who have become totally secularized,
> thinking that they can indeed serve God and Mammon.
Oh. Good. Finally he gets his digs in at Capitalism. He has redeemed
this piece just a little.
>
> St John the Baptist when asked by the soldiers what should they do,
> answered: “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content
> with your wages.” (Luke 3: 14).
(1) Those soldiers were serving essentially as police. What Jesus told
them makes perfect sense.
(2) "Do not intimidate anyone" seems to rule out "Shock and Awe"
bombing campaigns. And "do not...accuse falsely" seems to rule out
concocted incubator-baby stories.
>
> St John did not tell the soldiers to lay down their arms.
>
> Pacifism is not a Christian principle.
Oops, somebody forgot to tell Jesus. "You have learnt how it was said:
'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked
man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the
other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him
have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go
two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41
> St Sergei of Radonezh blessed
> the soldiers before they went into battle. During the combat the saint
> prayed for the souls who died bravely fighting against the Tartars.
>
> St Nikolai of Japan blessed the Orthodox soldiers in the Japanese Army
> before they fought the Russians. For this the Tsar decorated St Nikolai
> for defending his adopted country. During WW2, the late Archbishop
> Anthony of San Francisco served in the trenches with the Serbian Army.
> He ministered to the wounded and dying, not just in the safety of the
> Field Hospital, but in the trenches. It is said that he was communing a
> dying soldier when a bullet glanced off the chalice. What did Fr
> Anthony do? He did not run off and seek cover. He continued his
> prayers and then only then did he retreat to safety.
>
> And what of Vanya, a lieutenant in the Polish Army at Monte Casino? He
> prayed that he would not have to kill anyone during combat. God heard
> his prayer.
>
> Single-handed he stormed a German machine-gun nest and took the enemy
> prisoner. He told me that he fired into the air, hoping that he would
> not hurt anyone. The surprised Germans gave up without a fight. Vanya
> was decorated for bravery. Later St John of Shanghai awarded him a
> gramota for loyal service to the Church as choirmaster and warden. I
> had the honour of knowing this brave ‘pacifist’!
>
> Of course these values are totally lost on a generation that has been
> brought up on left-wing history texts.
Has he seen the history texts that we use in public schools? I guess
Moses receiving the Ten Commandments from God on Mt. Sinai is leftist
revisionism...
> Should a boy show any signs of
> manhood, he is immediately referred to the shrink for a course of
> Ritalin. If this fails, he is made a pariah in our effeminate
> hedonistic society.
>
> When the Russian writer Solzhenitsyn first came to the west, he warned
> us that what had happened in Russia would happen on American soil. At
> that time I thought that what he was predicting was far-fetched
> nonsense. Today I think differently.
That an illegitimate ruling class would gain absolute ascendency,
cloaking their takeover in virtue, and using the good intentions of the
masses (or else their complicit apathy) to accomplish it? It doesn't
matter what economic theory the rulers are touting, I guess. In that
case, communism; in this case capitalism. The difference to the little
guy is nil.
>
> The forces of the antichrist have already gathered in Europe and are
> making their demands known.
Who wrote this, Tim LaHaye?
>
> Was Europe founded on sodomy and immorality? Was western civilization
> the product of socialist serfdom and godless humanism? No. Europe was
> founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition.
How is a continent "founded" on peculiar sexual preferences? That is
some strange geophysical theory he's got in play. I don't want to hear
his ideas on volcanoes, or (perish the thought) the Mid-oceanic Ridge. :-)
True, it wasn't socialist serfdom; it was just plain, old fashioned,
_regular_ serfdom.
>
> America too was established by God-fearing men who founded that great
> nation on the basic Christian values,
The founding fathers were Deists. Jefferson created a version of the
Bible with all references to Christ's divinity removed. John Adams
claimed that there would be no decent society until organized religion
was done away with. I could go on.
Are these men that Orthodox Christians should be emulating? Sure they
were intelligent, but they were no _spiritual_ example.
> paying tribute to the virtues of
> sacrifice, honour and courage. Now we are being told that this is all
> bigotry and we have to consider other religions. We must not offend
> others with the truth. Not that the left cares about religion. The
> left hates absolutes except in its own godless religion of socialism.
Oh jeez. This guy _really_ sounds like a Fundamentalist Protestant.
Now we have elevated socialism to the level of a religion? Not just any
religion, but an oxymoronic "godless religion." Do leftist socialists
do "numberless math"? I guess they must have "plantless botany,"
"commodity-less economics," and "starless astronomy," as well.
>
> When I see the ‘No War’ stickers, I wonder whether these people driving
> their SUVs would start riding bicycles to avoid our need for oil.
I can't say that I've seen any "stop war" stickers on SUVs. But,
assuming they exist somewhere, those are some pretty hypocritical
people. Good as a sick joke, though. Sort of like putting a "save the
whales" sticker on a whaling boat.
> Would
> they stop flying in jets? Do they ever consider the brave men and women
> who gave their lives for the peace we enjoy?
>
> Perhaps we as Orthodox Christians are waging a rear-guard action.
> Nevertheless it is our duty to sacrifice ourselves as did those before
> us for what is true, honest, just, pure, is lovely, or of good report..
The only war that we are supposed to be waging is against our own
passions. The sin of others should not even take a place in our minds.
Perhaps if we stopped taking our religious cues from the
fundamentalist protestants, and looked to living our own lives
righteously rather than griping about how sinful everyone else is, we
could be effective forces for peace, love, purity, honesty, truth and
justice.
> (Phil 4: 8)
>
> Fr Serafim
Really?
>
--
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it. --George Bernard Shaw
Alexander Arnakis
<jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
><snipped>
>
>When I see the ‘No War’ stickers, I wonder whether these people driving
>their SUVs would start riding bicycles to avoid our need for oil. Would
>they stop flying in jets? Do they ever consider the brave men and women
>who gave their lives for the peace we enjoy?
>
>Perhaps we as Orthodox Christians are waging a rear-guard action.
>Nevertheless it is our duty to sacrifice ourselves as did those before
>us for what is true, honest, just, pure, is lovely, or of good report..
>(Phil 4: 8)
>
>Fr Serafim
Just as it's possible to quote Scripture on behalf of just about any
position, it's possible to find a clergyman to support just about any
policy. I've seen pictures of clergymen giving the Nazi salute in the
presence of Hitler.
The war is justified, but it's wrong to try to link it to religious
principles. Secular problems have secular solutions.
++
> Ephrem Bensusan
is a member of a self determined church that calls itself Orthodox
In his own words "TSERKOVNOST::An Eastern Orthodox Resource Centre is an
independent non-incorporated non-profit religious institution
established under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States of America and the laws of the State of Florida. It is not an
official organ of any particular Orthodox jurisdiction."
Zaph'enath
Well that explains "Fr" Serafim...
I wonder if the Constitution of the United States has Apostolic Succession.
Zaph'enath
I must ask your forgiveness for the above post. I was overly rash. In
fact, _nowhere_ on the Tserkovnost web page could I find any claim that
it was a church, or anything other than a source of information. I am
guilty both of believing unsubstantiated gossip, and of being snide
about it.
Once I actually looked at the site (which I should have done first) I
realized that Gail must have been terribly mistaken.
So, again, I apologize.
- Joseph
Zaph'enath
least on the same page as far as operating systems. Even down to
$pelling...
Cheers,
- Joseph
AGGreen
Jerusale Patriarchate.
Al
"++" <sp...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3E815F09...@erols.com...
AGGreen
"Zaph'enath" <zaph...@mirai.cx> wrote in message
news:3E8163A...@mirai.cx...
>
> Well that explains "Fr" Serafim...
Father Seraphim has nothing to do with the TSERKOVNOST::An Eastern Orthodox
Resource Centre web site except that it is a supporting member of the
resource center, as am I and any number of other legitimate Orthodox
jurisdictions and churches. Tserkovnost has no control over what I put on my
web site nor what Fr. Serafim puts on his.
Here are the supporters, copied and pasted from the Tserkovnost search page:
"Websites actively supporting the Tserkovnost Eastern Orthodox Search Engine
include: The Orthodox Christian Information Center, St. Jonah of Manchuria
Russian Orthodox Church (Spring, Texas),The Antiochian Orthodox Christian
Archdiocese of North America Midwest Region, OrthodoxNet.com: The Global
Truth Network, St.Luke's Serbian Orthodox Mission (Etobicoke, Ontario), Holy
Trinity OCA Cathedral (San Francisco, California), Teknos Christian Pages &
Links, Orchid Land Publications, Monachos.net Orthodox Monastic & Patristic
Resources, Orthodox Church & Bible Study Links, King of Kings, The Southwest
Institute for Orthodox Studies, and The OrthodoxWest Information Network."
Al
AGGreen
I think Mother Gail's true rabble-rousing, unOrthodox colors have reached a
pinnacle.
Al
"Zaph'enath" <zaph...@mirai.cx> wrote in message
news:3E818052...@mirai.cx...
Ephrem Bensusan
What I DID NOT SAY in that statement is that Tserkovnost is a church. I
belong to ROCOR. You know, the Synod you left. I attend a Serbian
parish in Longwood, FL.
How does that make me a member of a self-determined church that calls
itself Orthodox? Or are you just casting aspersions at the Church Abroad?
And what do my pages on UNIX have to do with anything?
AGGreen
You have been the object of Gail's unOrthodox blasphemy. (Sorry, I cannot
use her "Orthodox" name.)
Al
"Ephrem Bensusan" <jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XhOdneHCHO7...@comcast.com...
Ephrem Bensusan
God forgives. I'm sure Galina just misunderstood the disclaimer.
In XC,
Ephrem, a sinner
++
Zaph'enath wrote:
> Ephrem,
>
> I must ask your forgiveness for the above post. I was overly rash. In
> fact, _nowhere_ on the Tserkovnost web page could I find any claim that
> it was a church, or anything other than a source of information. I am
> guilty both of believing unsubstantiated gossip, and of being snide
> about it.
>
> Once I actually looked at the site (which I should have done first) I
> realized that Gail
If you are Orthodox, it would be appropriate to call me by Galina, my Christian
name. But if you are signalling you are not, I understand.
> must have been terribly mistaken.
>
> So, again, I apologize.
Why apologize for asking where the dude was ordained?
>
>
> - Joseph
++
Really?
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> Galina--
>
> What I DID NOT SAY in that statement is that Tserkovnost is a church. I
> belong to ROCOR. You know, the Synod you left. I attend a Serbian
> parish in Longwood, FL.
>
> How does that make me a member of a self-determined church that calls
> itself Orthodox? Or are you just casting aspersions at the Church Abroad?
How could I do that? You haven't mentioned the ROCOR in this. And there are
no Serbian Churches under the ROCA or ROCOR that I remember. However, there
is a Sveta Petka which is regular SOC in Orlando area with no connection to
the ROCOR. When I looked it up, lo and behold, I was right. It is SOC not
ROCOR :
St. Petka Church
1990 Lake Emma Rd., Longwood, FL 32750,
Florida, U.S.A.
Phone: (407) 831-SERB
People found the statement by the supposed Fr. Seraphim (without a link)
unusual for an Orthodox priest. I posted your own disclaimer on your webpages
and let people know you were computer literate.
> And what do my pages on UNIX have to do with anything?
only that you are computer literate and a helpful person, not a priest. Nice
stuff.
>
>
> ++ wrote:
In the pope's own news:
War Would Be a "Disgrace for Humanity,"
Says Serbian Orthodox
VATICAN CITY, FEB. 6, 2003 (Zenit.org).- A representative of the
Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate told John Paul II that a war against
Iraq would be a "disgrace for humanity."
The representative, Metropolitan Amfilohije of Montenegro, is heading a
delegation in Rome
this week, to promote ecumenical rapprochement with the Catholic Church.
When the Orthodox metropolitan greeted the Holy Father today, he took
advantage of the
occasion to make an appeal for peace in Iraq.
"In the 20th century alone, our Church and our people were subjected to seven
wars, and still
today they suffer from profound wounds, especially in Kosovo," Metropolitan
Amfilohije
said.
This is why the Serbian Orthodox Church, "together with His Holiness, requests
the powerful
of the earth, especially the United States and its allies, not to get involved
in a new war, on
this occasion against Iraq," he added.
"This new war would be a new defeat for all of us and a new disgrace for the
whole of
humanity, and not just a humiliation and destruction of the honest Iraqi
people," he stressed.
The Serbian Orthodox Church has 9 million faithful spread over 32 dioceses
worldwide,
including four in North America, two in Western Europe, and two in Australia
and New
Zealand.
And from the Russian Orthodox Church website:
War Would Be a "Disgrace for Humanity,"
Says Serbian Orthodox
VATICAN CITY, FEB. 6, 2003 (Zenit.org).- A representative of the
Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate told John Paul II that a war against
Iraq would be a "disgrace for humanity."
The representative, Metropolitan Amfilohije of Montenegro, is heading a
delegation in Rome
this week, to promote ecumenical rapprochement with the Catholic Church.
When the Orthodox metropolitan greeted the Holy Father today, he took
advantage of the
occasion to make an appeal for peace in Iraq.
"In the 20th century alone, our Church and our people were subjected to seven
wars, and still
today they suffer from profound wounds, especially in Kosovo," Metropolitan
Amfilohije
said.
This is why the Serbian Orthodox Church, "together with His Holiness, requests
the powerful
of the earth, especially the United States and its allies, not to get involved
in a new war, on
this occasion against Iraq," he added.
"This new war would be a new defeat for all of us and a new disgrace for the
whole of
humanity, and not just a humiliation and destruction of the honest Iraqi
people," he stressed.
The Serbian Orthodox Church has 9 million faithful spread over 32 dioceses
worldwide,
including four in North America, two in Western Europe, and two in Australia
and New
Zealand.
and
IOCC Mobilizes Humanitarian Response For Iraq Crisis
INTERNATIONAL ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHARITIES (IOCC)
110 West Road, Suite 360, Baltimore, Md. 21204 - Tel: (410)
243-9820 - Fax: (410) 243-9824
Web: www.iocc.org - E-mail: ne...@iocc.org
For immediate release
March 18, 2003
IOCC MOBILIZES HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE FOR IRAQ
CRISIS
Baltimore (IOCC) - With diplomatic efforts to peacefully
disarm Iraq coming to an end, staff members
of International Orthodox Christian Charities (IOCC) are
being dispatched to the Middle East to
coordinate an Orthodox Christian response to assist the
victims of a war in Iraq.
IOCC, the official humanitarian aid agency of Orthodox
Christians, is planning a three-pronged
response to the current crisis: distribution of "survival
packs" to migrant workers fleeing Iraq;
provision of medical assistance to ill or disabled refugees
in Jordan; and distribution of
humanitarian relief supplies within Iraq with IOCC's local
church partners.
"The situation is fluid and will certainly evolve - as will
IOCC's response to the needs that emerge,"
said IOCC Chief Operating Officer David Holdridge.
IOCC's goal is to raise $1 million for relief supplies as
well as for life-saving medicines and medical
supplies needed now in Iraq and Jordan. The aid will assist
vulnerable children and their families.
Half of Iraq's 24.5 million citizens are children,
according to UNICEF.
An IOCC emergency response team is departing for Amman,
Jordan, to establish relief operations
and to provide technical assistance to church partners to
deliver and manage an effective
humanitarian relief distribution within Iraq.
"IOCC's priority is to support the Orthodox churches in the
region at this time of crisis, and to support
them in a way that will allow them to serve their own
community as well as deliver assistance to all
those in need within their reach," Holdridge said. "A
visible commitment to the provision of this
assistance by the Orthodox Church will be important as Iraq
seeks to rebuild a more equitable
society."
The response to the Iraq crisis is part of IOCC's
continuing commitment to help refugees and other
victims of war. For 10 years, in places like the former
Yugoslavia, the Republic of Georgia and the
West Bank, IOCC has been offering food, clothing and
shelter to people displaced by war and civil
unrest. Once the violence stops, IOCC has been there with
self-help programs that bring new hope
and opportunity.
In addition to helping vulnerable families in Iraq, the
IOCC operations will provide medical
assistance to ill or disabled refugees and displaced
persons expected to flee Iraq through Jordan.
The survival packs contain items such as food staples and a
first-aid kit.
IOCC has worked in the Middle East since 1997 and currently
has programs in the Holy Land and
Lebanon. Since 1992, IOCC has distributed more than $160
million in relief and development
assistance in 21 countries.
To help in providing relief, call IOCC's donation hotline
toll-free at 1-877-803-4622, make a gift
on-line at www.iocc.org, or mail a check or money order to
IOCC, "Middle East Crisis," P.O. Box
630225, Baltimore, Md. 21263-0225.
and
Ephrem Bensusan
++ wrote:
> I apologize and will remove those postings. Meanwhile, who is " Fr Serafim"?
>
> Really?
>
Fr. Serafim Gascoigne is a priest of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. He is
in Seattle.
>
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>
>>Galina--
>>
>>What I DID NOT SAY in that statement is that Tserkovnost is a church. I
>>belong to ROCOR. You know, the Synod you left. I attend a Serbian
>>parish in Longwood, FL.
>>
>>How does that make me a member of a self-determined church that calls
>>itself Orthodox? Or are you just casting aspersions at the Church Abroad?
>
>
> How could I do that? You haven't mentioned the ROCOR in this. And there are
> no Serbian Churches under the ROCA or ROCOR that I remember. However, there
> is a Sveta Petka which is regular SOC in Orlando area with no connection to
> the ROCOR. When I looked it up, lo and behold, I was right. It is SOC not
> ROCOR :
>
> St. Petka Church
> 1990 Lake Emma Rd., Longwood, FL 32750,
> Florida, U.S.A.
> Phone: (407) 831-SERB
I am personally ROCOR. I go to a Serbian parish. The reason is that
the nearest ROCOR parish is 130 miles away. I would go to a ROCOR
parish if there was one close enough.
I didn't say that Sv. Petka is a ROCOR parish. But there is a connexion
between the SOC and ROCOR--they are both Orthodox Churches. :-)
>
> People found the statement by the supposed Fr. Seraphim (without a link)
> unusual for an Orthodox priest. I posted your own disclaimer on your webpages
> and let people know you were computer literate.
>
I should have posted the link. Please forgive me.
>
>>And what do my pages on UNIX have to do with anything?
>
>
> only that you are computer literate and a helpful person, not a priest. Nice
> stuff.
>
>
Thank you.
I know that the position of the Serbian Patriarchate is that the US
should not go to war in Iraq.
As far as I am aware neither Vladyka Lavr nor Valdyka Gavriil--my
Metropolitan and my Bishop--have not publicly issued any statements on
the war.
I am happy to see the IOCC doing what they are doing. I hope this
crisis will be over soon, that the Iraqi people are quickly liberated
from their tyrannical ruler, that peace can be brought about.
Mir,
Ephrem
++
AGGreen wrote:
> Ephrem,
>
> You have been the object of Gail's unOrthodox blasphemy. (Sorry, I cannot
> use her "Orthodox" name.)
>
> Al
We alreay know you lack manners, Al. And now we know you are capable of falsely
accusing others of blasphemy
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
But when you post on something contrary to the Orhtodox position (even if written by
an Orhtodox priest), do not state where that came from and then state you are a
member of the ROCOR and attend an SOC church, it gives the impression that both the
ROCOR and SOC authorize this viewpoint. Please have the courtesy, even if others do
not, that when you are posting views contrary to the Church viewpint, that you
clearly state this, provide links to information contrary to or purporting to be
from Orthodox.
>
>
> I didn't say that Sv. Petka is a ROCOR parish. But there is a connexion
> between the SOC and ROCOR--they are both Orthodox Churches. :-)
The SOC does not recognize the ROCOR
>
>
> >
> > People found the statement by the supposed Fr. Seraphim (without a link)
> > unusual for an Orthodox priest. I posted your own disclaimer on your webpages
> > and let people know you were computer literate.
> >
> I should have posted the link. Please forgive me.
no problemo
> only that you are computer literate and a helpful person, not a priest. Nice
> > stuff.
> >
> >
> Thank you.
>
> I know that the position of the Serbian Patriarchate is that the US
> should not go to war in Iraq.
Good to see you note it
>
>
> As far as I am aware neither Vladyka Lavr nor Valdyka Gavriil--my
> Metropolitan and my Bishop--have not publicly issued any statements on
> the war.
But all other Orthodox worldwide have. And so has their Patriarch
>
>
> I am happy to see the IOCC doing what they are doing. I hope this
> crisis will be over soon, that the Iraqi people are quickly liberated
> from their tyrannical ruler, that peace can be brought about.
War is not a path to peace.
++
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> I've seen pictures of clergymen giving the Nazi salute in the
> presence of Hitler.
But when such a clergyman is suggested for sainthood, we can intervene, as
the Orhtodox did in the case of Stjepanic
Ephrem Bensusan
> The SOC does not recognize the ROCOR
Since when?
Provide documentation.
>>As far as I am aware neither Vladyka Lavr nor Valdyka Gavriil--my
>>Metropolitan and my Bishop--have not publicly issued any statements on
>>the war.
>
>
> But all other Orthodox worldwide have. And so has their Patriarch
Patriarch Alexei is not the Patriarch of ROCOR.
And I really don't need to clarify anything about Orthodox Bishops being
against war in Iraq. That's what you're here for. And, incidentally,
that doesn't necessarily make it "the Orthodox Position." It only makes
it the position of the Orthodox Bishops.
AGGreen
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3E8230DB...@erols.com...
AGGreen
***It would seem that Mother doesn't know as much as she thinks she knows!
:-(
Al
Ephrem Bensusan
Didn't she say yesterday that she knows and keeps in touch with all of
the ROCOR and HOCNA people? If so you'd think she know that the pretext
of the HOCNA crowd leaving ROCOR 17 years ago was precisely the fact
that ROCOR Bishops and Priests were CONSTANTLY AND UNASHAMEDLY
CONCELEBRATING WITH THE SOC!
And what was the pretext upon which the Mansonville Schism occurred?
Was it not that we asked the SOC to help mediate the eventual peace
(whether it be reunion or mutual recognition) between the Church Abroad
and the MP?
She spent 25 years in the Synod and she doesn't know this? It's not
like we've kept it secret.
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> ++ wrote:
>
> > The SOC does not recognize the ROCOR
>
> Since when?
>
> Provide documentation.
Uh, it works the other way around. There is no doucmnetation becuase there
is no recognition. So you would have to find documentation shuggesting they
do
>
>
> >>As far as I am aware neither Vladyka Lavr nor Valdyka Gavriil--my
> >>Metropolitan and my Bishop--have not publicly issued any statements on
> >>the war.
> >
> >
> > But all other Orthodox worldwide have. And so has their Patriarch
>
> Patriarch Alexei is not the Patriarch of ROCOR.
ROCOR has no patriarch, none whatsoever. It has had, over time, several
bishops, some of which, over time, have become discarded and reviled. Makes
ya wonder...
>
>
> And I really don't need to clarify anything about Orthodox Bishops being
> against war in Iraq. That's what you're here for. And, incidentally,
> that doesn't necessarily make it "the Orthodox Position." It only makes
> it the position of the Orthodox Bishops.
No. Actually, it is the Orhtodox position. period
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> Evidently not.
>
> Didn't she say yesterday that she knows and keeps in touch with all of
> the ROCOR and HOCNA people? If so you'd think she know that the pretext
> of the HOCNA crowd leaving ROCOR 17 years ago was precisely the fact
> that ROCOR Bishops and Priests were CONSTANTLY AND UNASHAMEDLY
> CONCELEBRATING WITH THE SOC!
The pretext of the people who left who determined a name fo themselves and
eventually renamed themselves into HOCNA, was that their leader had been
discovere to be a homosexual. When the investigation began, the faction,
eventually the True Orthodox CHurch (or was that their second name) then broke
off, refusing an enquiry, and several specious rationales for breaking off were
manufactured. One of which was that the SOC, with whom the ROCOR used to have
relations in contradiction to the SO not a part of the SOC Patriarchate in the
diaspora (the majority) was one way that the ROCOR could counteract the Serbs
under the OCA etc. The ROCOR was trying to concelebrate with whomever it could
for the sake of legitimacy and so was the OCA. But after the HOCNA split,
various of the splinter groups like the HOCNA could not supposedly stomach the
level of ecumenism of the SOC.
>
>
> And what was the pretext upon which the Mansonville Schism occurred?
> Was it not that we asked the SOC to help mediate the eventual peace
> (whether it be reunion or mutual recognition) between the Church Abroad
> and the MP?
I do not knowthe "Mansonville schism. Must of gotten lost in the middle of the
Mathewite and the Sergianists and all the other ites and ists and isms one
learned to properly revile within the ROCA/ROCOR/HOCNA/True Orhtodox etc.
>
>
> She spent 25 years in the Synod and she doesn't know this? It's not
> like we've kept it secret.
Left the Synod about (it was a transition) 20-10 years ago depending on the
year, i.e. during this period attended other jurisdictions..
AGGreen
>
>
> >
> > And I really don't need to clarify anything about Orthodox Bishops being
> > against war in Iraq. That's what you're here for. And, incidentally,
> > that doesn't necessarily make it "the Orthodox Position." It only makes
> > it the position of the Orthodox Bishops.
>
> No. Actually, it is the Orhtodox position. period
Galina, if it's the Orthodox "position," certainly it must be dogmatized in
one of the Church's canons. I can't find it. Help me out, here. Where?
Al
++
AGGreen wrote:
Thou shalt not kill
And the second is like unto it, that thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself
Peace, peace be unto you
Inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these, My servants, ye have done it unto
Me.
...
Ephrem Bensusan
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>
>>Evidently not.
>>
>>Didn't she say yesterday that she knows and keeps in touch with all of
>>the ROCOR and HOCNA people? If so you'd think she know that the pretext
>>of the HOCNA crowd leaving ROCOR 17 years ago was precisely the fact
>>that ROCOR Bishops and Priests were CONSTANTLY AND UNASHAMEDLY
>>CONCELEBRATING WITH THE SOC!
>
>
> The pretext of the people who left who determined a name fo themselves and
> eventually renamed themselves into HOCNA, was that their leader had been
> discovere to be a homosexual. When the investigation began, the faction,
> eventually the True Orthodox CHurch (or was that their second name) then broke
> off, refusing an enquiry, and several specious rationales for breaking off were
> manufactured. One of which was that the SOC, with whom the ROCOR used to have
> relations in contradiction to the SO not a part of the SOC Patriarchate in the
> diaspora (the majority) was one way that the ROCOR could counteract the Serbs
> under the OCA etc. The ROCOR was trying to concelebrate with whomever it could
> for the sake of legitimacy and so was the OCA. But after the HOCNA split,
> various of the splinter groups like the HOCNA could not supposedly stomach the
> level of ecumenism of the SOC.
>
>
ask everybody to believe. The REAL REASON is a different matter. I
know the situation surrounding the exodus in 1986 as well as anybody
else. Doesn't change the fact that they, HOCNA, blame ROCOR
concelebrations with the SOC, among other things.
There has never been a time when the SOC and ROCOR did not have mutual
recognition. The way you try to rewrite history is truly Orwellian.
>>
>>And what was the pretext upon which the Mansonville Schism occurred?
>>Was it not that we asked the SOC to help mediate the eventual peace
>>(whether it be reunion or mutual recognition) between the Church Abroad
>>and the MP?
>
>
> I do not knowthe "Mansonville schism. Must of gotten lost in the middle of the
> Mathewite and the Sergianists and all the other ites and ists and isms one
> learned to properly revile within the ROCA/ROCOR/HOCNA/True Orhtodox etc.
>
>
The Mansonville Schism is the group now called the R.O.C. in Exile, who
left in 2001. Because ROCOR was too ecumenist and was "being lured into
the MP."
Ephrem Bensusan
Assuming you are referring to Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian butcher,
the Latin Antichrist still beatified him despite the protests of the
Orthodox.
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> Galina,
>
> Assuming you are referring to Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian butcher,
> the Latin Antichrist still beatified him despite the protests of the
> Orthodox.
WE were not successful but we did let the world know about what the cardinal
represented. I don't think it is appropriate, by the way, to call the Roman
Pope the antichrist.
>
>
> ++ wrote:
> >
> >
> > But when such a clergyman is suggested for sainthood, we can intervene, as
> > the Orthodox did in the case of Stjepanic
The Icon Corner
> From: Ephrem Bensusan <jben...@nospam.comcast.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:42:44 -0500
> Subject: Re: Orthodox Priest on War in Iraq
>
> Galina,
>
> Assuming you are referring to Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian butcher,
> the Latin Antichrist still beatified him despite the protests of the
> Orthodox.
>
Yes, and there is a great book called _The Vatican Holocaust_ that details
the atrocities commited by The Vatican during the Second World War.
Ephrem Bensusan
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>
>> ++ wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The SOC does not recognize the ROCOR
>>
>>
>> Since when?
>>
>> Provide documentation.
>
>
>
> Uh, it works the other way around. There is no doucmnetation becuase
there
> is no recognition. So you would have to find documentation
shuggesting they
> do
>
>
No it doesn't. I have personal knowledge of multiple occasions wherein
Serbian BISHOPS concelebrate in SAN FRANCISCO both with the late Vl.
Antony, and the current Vl. Kyrill.
I have personal knowledge of many times Vl. Mark of Berlin (ROCOR)
concelebrating with Serbian Bishops in Serbia and on Sveti Gora at Hilandar.
Fact is, Galina, you don't know what you're talking about. There has
never been a time when mutual recognition did not exist between ROCOR
and the SOC.
And you keep making a distinction between ROCOR and ROCA? What's that?
>>
>> >>As far as I am aware neither Vladyka Lavr nor Valdyka Gavriil--my
>> >>Metropolitan and my Bishop--have not publicly issued any statements on
>> >>the war.
>> >
>> >
>> > But all other Orthodox worldwide have. And so has their Patriarch
>>
>> Patriarch Alexei is not the Patriarch of ROCOR.
>
>
>
> ROCOR has no patriarch, none whatsoever. It has had, over time, several
> bishops, some of which, over time, have become discarded and reviled.
Makes
> ya wonder...
>
>
Of course not. The last valid Russian Patriarch, as far as ROCOR is
concerned was His Holiness Sv. Tikhon the Confessor. It is well known
in the world that ROCOR has, since Sergei became Patriarch, dusputed the
legitimacy of Moscow. Everybody knows this. Your point?
And who doesn't have some "discredited and reviled" bishops? Makes ya
wonder...
Ephrem Bensusan
++ wrote:
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>
>>Galina,
>>
>>Assuming you are referring to Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian butcher,
>>the Latin Antichrist still beatified him despite the protests of the
>>Orthodox.
>
>
> WE were not successful but we did let the world know about what the cardinal
> represented. I don't think it is appropriate, by the way, to call the Roman
> Pope the antichrist.
>
Tell it to the 700,000 Serbian martyrs of Jasenovac.
AGGreen
>
>
>
> Thou shalt not kill
>
> And the second is like unto it, that thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself
>
> Peace, peace be unto you
>
> Inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these, My servants, ye have done it
unto
> Me.
What do the footnotes to the Orthodox Study Bible say about these passages?
Are they anti-war statements?
AGGreen
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and both churches commune each other's people.
It seems the ROCOR is most strict in the U.S. and the U.K. I've corresponded
with ROCOR priests in Australia where they concelebrate with other
jurisdictions and commune other church's people.
Al
"Ephrem Bensusan" <jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:GYecndCoB7i...@comcast.com...
++
AGGreen wrote:
> Heck,
Heck is a euphemism for Hell. Orthodox are not supposed to use the word.
> Ephrem, in New Zealand, ROCOR priests often concelebrate with the
> Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and both churches commune each other's people.
> It seems the ROCOR is most strict in the U.S. and the U.K. I've corresponded
> with ROCOR priests in Australia where they concelebrate with other
> jurisdictions and commune other church's people.
post that correspondence here, with their permission. See what they say.
AGGreen
>
>
> AGGreen wrote:
>
> > Heck,
>
> Heck is a euphemism for Hell. Orthodox are not supposed to use the word.
***Cut the shit, Gail! (What is "shit" a euphemism for?)
>
> > Ephrem, in New Zealand, ROCOR priests often concelebrate with the
> > Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and both churches commune each other's
people.
> > It seems the ROCOR is most strict in the U.S. and the U.K. I've
corresponded
> > with ROCOR priests in Australia where they concelebrate with other
> > jurisdictions and commune other church's people.
>
> post that correspondence here, with their permission. See what they say.
***The New Zealand priest is a member of the Orthodox-Forum at Yahoogroups.
Join and ask. I don't keep correspondence very long. Uses up too much hard
drive space.
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> ++ wrote:
>
>
> No it doesn't. I have personal knowledge of multiple occasions wherein
> Serbian BISHOPS concelebrate in SAN FRANCISCO both with the late Vl.
> Antony, and the current Vl. Kyrill.
You mean not the Vladika Kyril who went over to the OCA? And are you sure about
that concellebration? Becuase there has been a lot of fundraising by the SOC with
them being very careful not to concellebrate even when they attended services.
>
>
> I have personal knowledge of many times Vl. Mark of Berlin (ROCOR)
> concelebrating with Serbian Bishops in Serbia and on Sveti Gora at Hilandar.
Sure , when you go there, all they ask is if you are Orthodox, not your
jurisdiction.
> Fact is, Galina, you don't know what you're talking about. There has
> never been a time when mutual recognition did not exist between ROCOR
> and the SOC.
You sure about that?
>
>
> And you keep making a distinction between ROCOR and ROCA?
I am always making that mistake, from people pronouncing the acronym as if it was
a real word. It is ROCE
> What's that?
lol
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Tel (559) 275-1744
St. Andrew's Church
1427 Cossacks Pl.
Glendora, CA 91740
Priest Nikita Orloff
Tel (818) 892-2517
Russian Convent of Our Lady of Vladimir
St. Seraphim of Sarov Skete
PO Box 778
Moss Beach, CA 94038
Abbess Evgenia
Church of the New Martyr Grand Duchess Elizabeth
5997 D Devecchi Ave
Citrus Heights, CA
Mailing Address: PO Box 191363
Sacramento, CA 95819
Contact: Subdeacon Timofey
(916) 456-1526
Holy Dormition Skete
RR 1 box 192
Preston Hollow, NY 12469
Hieromonk Damian (Hanson)
Tel/Fax (518) 239-4650
St. Joseph of Petersburg Orthodox Church
18300 NW West Union Rd
Portland, OR
Mailing Address: PO Box 1011
Oregon City, OR 97045-0063
Archpriest Joseph Sunderland
Tel (503) 657-7155
E-mail: josephsu...@yahoo.com
Holy Assumption Church
39 Red Hill Dr
Stafford, VA 22554-1045
Archpriest Anatoly Trepatschko
Deacon John Trepaschko
Reader Nicholas Trepaschko
Tel. (540) 286-1657
E-mail: franat...@aol.com
All Saints Orthodox Church
3537 North 27th Street
Birmingham, AL 35207
Tarasios Sullivan, reader
Tel (205) 251-6694
E-mail: bil...@webtv.net
New Haven, Connecticut Area
Contact: John Dikov
Tel (203) 734-4980
E-mail: jdi...@aol.com
╚Behold what is so good or
so joyous as for brethren to dwell together in unity!╩ (Ps. 132:1)
Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church
Outside of Russia (ROCE)
Metropolitan Vitaly, First
Hierarch of ROCOR (ROCE)
Archbishop Varnava of Cannes and
Europe, Deputy First Hierarch of
ROCOR (ROCE)
Bishop Sergei of Mansonville
Bishop Vladimir of Sacramento
Bishop Bartholomew of Granada
Archpriest Benjamin Joukoff,
Secretary of ROCOR (ROCE)
Canada
South America
Europe
Russia
Press on a diocese
to see its
list of parishes
Canada
Quebec
Holy Transfiguration Skete
83 Chemin du Monastere
Mansonville, PQ J0E 1X0 CANADA
Metropolitan Vitaly
Bishop Vladimir
Archpriest Sergei Petroff
Tel (450) 292-3102
St. Seraphim of Sarov Chapel
8011 Champagneur Ave
Montreal, PQ H3N 2K4 CANADA
Bishop Sergei
Priest George Cap
Deacon Andrei Lomov
Tel (514) 278-8896
ROCE services are being held in the Hall of the Saint John
the Martyr Church
670 Sixth Ave
Lachine, PQ H8S 2Y3
Fr. George Cap
Contact: Bishop Sergei
Please note: In the Church building is commemorated
Metropolitans Laurus and Vitaly as
reported by the parish priest Fr. George Lagodich. We must
state that Fr. George L. has
no affiliation with the Synod of Metropolitan Vitaly
having joined with Metropolitan Laurus
and is only causing confusion to the flock by these
actions.
Ontario
Toronto:
Meeting in various locations until a suitable place is
found, contact reader Sergey Agou for times of services.
Tel (905) 430-3199
E-mail: sola...@sympatico.ca
Holy Trinity Church
1420 Drouillard Rd.
Windsor, On N8Y 2R9
Priest Theodore Gacanin
Tel (519) 972-3865
Ottawa: to be announced...
Alberta
St. Vladimir Cathedral
6824 - 128th Ave
Edmonton, AB T5C 1S7 CANADA
Bishop Bartholomew E-mail: re...@albertamail.com
Priest Andrew Kencis
Priest Mark Smith E-mail: PMAS...@telus.net
Tel (780) 476-2381
Dormition Skete
PO Box 104
Wildwood, AB T0E 2M0 CANADA
Priest Andrew Kencis
British Columbia
St. Alexander Nevsky Mission
10328 Western Crescent
Prince George, BC V2N 2M5 CANADA
Priest Andrew Kencis
Vancouver:
Saint John the Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco
parish
Regular services with monthly Divine Liturgy
Please contact: Nicholas Petroff
E-mail: nicholas...@telus.net
Our Lady of Kazan Mission
Sechelt, BC
Contact: Damian or Helen Wright
Tel (604) 885-0432
E-mail: cmi...@hotmail.com
etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hard to keep track, ain't it
Galina
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> ++ wrote:
> >
> > Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Galina,
> >>
> >>Assuming you are referring to Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian butcher,
> >>the Latin Antichrist still beatified him despite the protests of the
> >>Orthodox.
> >
> >
> > WE were not successful but we did let the world know about what the cardinal
> > represented. I don't think it is appropriate, by the way, to call the Roman
> > Pope the antichrist.
> >
> Tell it to the 700,000 Serbian martyrs of Jasenovac.
Please read up on the antiChrist. The present Pope had nothing to do with
Jasenovac , as far as I know
Judegement is the Lord's
We know not the day or the hour
Galina
Ephrem Bensusan
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>
>>++ wrote:
>>
>>
>>No it doesn't. I have personal knowledge of multiple occasions wherein
>>Serbian BISHOPS concelebrate in SAN FRANCISCO both with the late Vl.
>>Antony, and the current Vl. Kyrill.
>
>
> You mean not the Vladika Kyril who went over to the OCA?
No. I mean Vladyka Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, a member
of the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR, successor to Vladyka Antony, successor
to our father among the saints Sv. Ioann the Wonderworker, who, in case
you are unaware, often concelebrated with the Serbs as well. In fact, I
have a wonderful old picture of Sv. Ioann and Sv. Justin Celiski when
they taught together at the Beograd Seminary.
He's the fifth bishop in the list you posted from the Official Synod
Website.
And are you sure about
> that concellebration? Becuase there has been a lot of fundraising by the SOC with
> them being very careful not to concellebrate even when they attended services.
>
Which concelebration? There have been so many that I can begin to
figure out which one you're talking about.
>
>>
>>I have personal knowledge of many times Vl. Mark of Berlin (ROCOR)
>>concelebrating with Serbian Bishops in Serbia and on Sveti Gora at Hilandar.
>
>
> Sure , when you go there, all they ask is if you are Orthodox, not your
> jurisdiction.
>
Sorry, Galina--they do ask. And Archbishop Mark of Berlin is hardly an
obscure figure in Europe. It's not like they don't know who he is. Get
real.
>
>>Fact is, Galina, you don't know what you're talking about. There has
>>never been a time when mutual recognition did not exist between ROCOR
>>and the SOC.
>
>
> You sure about that?
>
Positive.
>
>>
>>And you keep making a distinction between ROCOR and ROCA?
>
>
> I am always making that mistake, from people pronouncing the acronym as if it was
> a real word. It is ROCE
>
>
>>What's that?
>
>
> lol
Ah. Then yes--there is a difference. ROCE is the Mansonville Schism to
which I referred earlier. Those who left because we who have remained
in communion with the Serbs.
ROCA on the other hand is a synonym for ROCOR. Zarubezhnoi.
Zagranitsei. You know. Or maybe you don't.
What's your beef, Galina? It seems very important to you to create a
division where there is none. The SOC maintains communion with ROCOR,
OCA, and MP. Is it any different than when the Serbs maintained
communion with both Bulgaria and the EP while concelebration was banned
between the two?
What's the big problem?
>
>
> http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/
[snip] List of ROCOR Bishops
>
> http://www.russianorthodoxchurchinexile.com/
>
> Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCE)
>
[snip] List of ROCE Bishops
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Hard to keep track, ain't it
No harder to keep track of than if I posted 2 lists of Bishops in a way
designed to confuse unwary onlookers.
Again, what's your beef? Why do you try to create a division where
there isn't one?
>
> Galina
>
Ephrem Bensusan
Something Galina may not realise: Except for the administrative
division between the ROCOR and the MP/OCA (which is an internal matter
of the Russian Church, to be resolved by a future Sobor of the Russian
Church), ROCOR has not made any Synodal pronouncement breaking communion
with any other Orthodox body.
Concelebrations happen all the time. What's her problem?
You know, when I started going to Sv. Petka, I made it clear to the
priest that I was ROCOR. He didn't scold me. He didn't tell me I was
uncanonical. He didn't call me a schismatic. He just received me to
Confession and Communion.
And no, Galina, I did not confess my membership in ROCOR as a sin!
Mir,
Ephrem
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
What's your beef, Galina? It seems very important to you to create a
division where there is none. The SOC maintains communion with ROCOR,
OCA, and MP. Is it any different than when the Serbs maintained
communion with both Bulgaria and the EP while concelebration was banned
between the two?
I don't have a beef. I was stating what I know to be fact.
I challenge you to email to the Serbian Patriarchate and have them issue
a statement they are in communion with the ROCOR, the ROCA or even the
ROCIE or the ROCE. It's a pity but it's a reality
that they aren't. I had the pelasure of talking to the Serbian Patriarch's
representative i n the US last night at the OCA cathedral where he occasionally
serves. Imagine that.
What's the big problem?
The only problem is the numerous jursidictions we Orthodox have
instead of getting along with one another. Everyone should be concelebrating,
my opinion, regardless of calendar.I personally prefer the old, so do a
lot of churches, and there is a reason for it. But I wouldn't claim
someone a heretic for following the new or, if I were a priest, communing
her or him.
> http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/[snip] List of ROCOR Bishops
>
> http://www.russianorthodoxchurchinexile.com/
>
> Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCE)
>[snip] List of ROCE Bishops
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Hard to keep track, ain't itNo harder to keep track of than if I posted 2 lists of Bishops in a way
designed to confuse unwary onlookers.
I meant which church ended up in which jurisdiction, how many are
still in the HOCNA or filpped over somewhere else to, say, a Patriarchate
making new churches in the US, etc. etc.
Again, what's your beef? Why do you try to create a division where
there isn't one?
Quite the opposite. The divisions are unnecessary.
>
> Galina
>
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> Yep.
>
> Something Galina may not realise:
You may not be aware that speaking of people with whom you are regularly
communicating in the third person is bad manners.
> Except for the administrative
> division between the ROCOR and the MP/OCA (which is an internal matter
> of the Russian Church, to be resolved by a future Sobor of the Russian
> Church), ROCOR has not made any Synodal pronouncement breaking communion
> with any other Orthodox body.
I've seen a few dog fights in my day between these and a few court cases as well.
No need for them. As far as pronouncements, let's take the opposite case. I have
seen ROCOR members communed in the OCA and elsewhere. I have not seen much of the
opposite and thankfully we've escaped the period of time in which people were
asked to rebaptise themselves in the only true remnant church
>
>
> Concelebrations happen all the time. What's her problem?
Are you asking me to state what my own problems are? People concelebrate all the
time. Even when they don't recognize one another's jurisdictions. Poeple and
jurisdictions also condemn one another over the same.
> You know, when I started going to Sv. Petka, I made it clear to the
> priest that I was ROCOR. He didn't scold me. He didn't tell me I was
> uncanonical. He didn't call me a schismatic. He just received me to
> Confession and Communion.
very nice. And does this priest know your attitudes on the war?
>
>
> And no, Galina, I did not confess my membership in ROCOR as a sin!
I would never suggest such a thing.
>
>
> Mir,
Don't say it unless you want to live it
>
> Ephrem
>
Work the Peace!
AGGreen
Orthodoxy, Corrector of Manners, Spiritual Director of the Cyber World.
Look, up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, NO...it's Cyber Gail!!
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3E8384E0...@erols.com...
AGGreen
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3E838307...@erols.com...
Ephrem Bensusan
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>
>>Yep.
>>
>>Something Galina may not realise:
>
>
> You may not be aware that speaking of people with whom you are regularly
> communicating in the third person is bad manners.
>
>
>>Except for the administrative
>>division between the ROCOR and the MP/OCA (which is an internal matter
>>of the Russian Church, to be resolved by a future Sobor of the Russian
>>Church), ROCOR has not made any Synodal pronouncement breaking communion
>>with any other Orthodox body.
>
>
> I've seen a few dog fights in my day between these and a few court cases as well.
> No need for them. As far as pronouncements, let's take the opposite case. I have
> seen ROCOR members communed in the OCA and elsewhere. I have not seen much of the
> opposite and thankfully we've escaped the period of time in which people were
> asked to rebaptise themselves in the only true remnant church
>
And I've seen plenty of OCA and MP people communed in ROCOR parishes.
ROCOR never called herself the "only true remnant church." Some
fanatical priests and laity did. They have tended over the years to go
into schism from ROCOR. Thus you have HOCNA, ROAC, ROCE. The other
jurisdictions have their share of schismatics too. The multitude of
"independent" parasynagogues tracing their succession back to Aftimios
Ofiesh of the American Metropolia comes to mind.
>
>>
>>Concelebrations happen all the time. What's her problem?
>
>
> Are you asking me to state what my own problems are? People concelebrate all the
> time. Even when they don't recognize one another's jurisdictions. Poeple and
> jurisdictions also condemn one another over the same.
>
>
>>You know, when I started going to Sv. Petka, I made it clear to the
>>priest that I was ROCOR. He didn't scold me. He didn't tell me I was
>>uncanonical. He didn't call me a schismatic. He just received me to
>>Confession and Communion.
>
>
> very nice. And does this priest know your attitudes on the war?
>
I don't know--the subject hasn't come up. But it's not a secret.
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> Thus you have HOCNA, ROAC
> >
> >>Ephrem
> >>
> >
> >
> > Work the Peace!
> >
Ephrem Bensusan
schismatics under Valentin of Suzdal, and their US Representative,
Bishop Gregory of Denver, formerly Archimandrite Gregory of Dormition
Skete, formerly under Kallinikos of Lamia, formerly under Chrysostomos
Kiousis, formerly under ROCOR, formerly under the Syrian (Antiochian)
Orthodox Diocese of Cleveland (Michael Shaheen).
http://www.russianorthodoxautonomouschurchinamerica.com
AGGreen
The ROAC doesn't seem to know what it's identity is.
Al
"Ephrem Bensusan" <jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:y4adnVlgEMv...@comcast.com...
Ephrem Bensusan
>
>
> Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
>
>> What's your beef, Galina? It seems very important to you to create a
>> division where there is none. The SOC maintains communion with ROCOR,
>> OCA, and MP. Is it any different than when the Serbs maintained
>> communion with both Bulgaria and the EP while concelebration was banned
>> between the two?
>
>
> statement they are in communion with the ROCOR, the ROCA or even the
> i n the US last night at the OCA cathedral where he occasionally
> serves. Imagine that.
>
request. I can't count the number of times that I remember Serbian
Bishops and priests serving at the ROCOR Cathedral in San Francisco.
I don't know who it is that you spoke to last night--I know there are
currently 3 bishops here in America: Metr. Christopher, Bishop
Mitrofan, and Bishop Longin. Why don't you identify your source?
You don't say if you asked him about it. And if you did, I'm not sure
whether I could believe what you relay to me, since you can't appear to
keep straight the acronyms of the Synod and the Mansonville Schismatics.
Fr. Alexander Lebedeff had a post on this a couple years ago
http://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010D&L=orthodox&P=R8876&D=1&O=D&m=54423
>>
>>
>> What's the big problem?
>>
>
> The only problem is the numerous jursidictions we Orthodox have instead
> of getting along with one another. Everyone should be concelebrating,
> my opinion, regardless of calendar.I personally prefer the old, so do a
> lot of churches, and there is a reason for it. But I wouldn't claim
> someone a heretic for following the new or, if I were a priest,
> communing her or him.
>
Who said anyone was an heretic over the calendar? As Al pointed out, in
Australia, even the New Calendarist Greeks concelebrate with ROCOR.
The ROCOR and the Serbs do get along. Thats the whole point. The ROCOR
gets along with people a whole lot better than you seem to think.
I've noticed recently, much to my pleasure, that every time St. Nicholas
(the ROCOR Cathedral in Seattle) has an event, I see photos of Fr. Vadim
Pogrebniak, the dean of the OCA cathedral there, in attendance.
>>
>> > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/
>>
>> [snip] List of ROCOR Bishops
>>
>> >
>> > http://www.russianorthodoxchurchinexile.com/
>> >
>> > Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCE)
>> >
>>
>> [snip] List of ROCE Bishops
>>
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> > Hard to keep track, ain't it
>>
>> No harder to keep track of than if I posted 2 lists of Bishops in a way
>> designed to confuse unwary onlookers.
>>
>
> I meant which church ended up in which jurisdiction, how many are still
> in the HOCNA or filpped over somewhere else to, say, a Patriarchate
> making new churches in the US, etc. etc.
>
I didn't get that--all I saw was a long list of Bishops.
>>
>>
>> Again, what's your beef? Why do you try to create a division where
>> there isn't one?
>>
>
> Quite the opposite. The divisions are unnecessary.
>
Exactly. The Serbs know it. ROCOR knows it. That's why there is no
division between us.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Galina
>> >
>>
AGGreen
"Ephrem Bensusan" <jben...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:12-dnX-OZPV...@comcast.com...
alight
> As you know, I try not comment on current events, but we have a
> situation at this moment that threatens to undermine the very basis of
> Christian values. Therefore I feel it is my duty as an Orthodox priest
> to stand up in defence of honour, courage and sacrifice.
>
> Why is there opposition to a war in Iraq? Because war and killing are
> evil? Yes.
>
> But if we look behind the façade of the peace movement in the USA and
> Europe, we see the usual left-wing agitators stirring up the people, as
> did the revolutionaries in Russia in 1905 and later. It is the same
> people or rather the same ideology that would replace God with man.
>
> These very same people are capable of killing when it serves their
> purpose. They are ruthless as history testifies.
>
> Of course not all the peaceniks have a special agenda. There are many
> who equate peace with comfort and domestic security. Who wants a war?
> What will happen to my job, my investments etc? These are like the
> domestic rabbits that are being fattened for the slaughter. Having
> been fed a diet of socialist propaganda they are unable to see the
> implications of the left-wing agenda. For many of these ‘ordinary’
> folk, it will come as a great shock when masters of the left show their
> true face. By that time it will be too late.
>
> Already the traditional family is being threatened by same-sex
> marriages. Everywhere basic decency has been replaced by a
> lavender-tinted immorality, which has even penetrated the Church.
>
> War is evil. But it is necessary when peace and good order are
> threatened. This basic fact has been glossed over by years of leftist
> propaganda in the media and especially in education.
Mr so called priest.
You are a teacher of faith and you don't know what Christ taught?
As Christ said, he who takes up the sword, shall perish with the sword.
Now if you think war is necessary then go fight with them. Will you go?
Or are you just someone who hides behind the reality of war and killings?
Thou shall not kill.
Who is he that denies God's commands? he who shall perish.
>
> No longer the transmission of the body of knowledge, education has been
> used as a brainwashing tool to teach an anti-Christian and amoral
> philosophy. The Holy City of Jerusalem has been replaced with the
> Liberated City of Sodom.
>
> And do not think for one moment that we as Orthodox Christians have not
> been touched or influenced by these seeds of secularism. Even in the
> Church, today there are many who have become totally secularized,
> thinking that they can indeed serve God and Mammon.
>
> St John the Baptist when asked by the soldiers what should they do,
> answered: “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content
> with your wages.” (Luke 3: 14).
>
> St John did not tell the soldiers to lay down their arms.
>
> Pacifism is not a Christian principle. St Sergei of Radonezh blessed
> the soldiers before they went into battle. During the combat the saint
> prayed for the souls who died bravely fighting against the Tartars.
>
> St Nikolai of Japan blessed the Orthodox soldiers in the Japanese Army
> before they fought the Russians. For this the Tsar decorated St Nikolai
> for defending his adopted country. During WW2, the late Archbishop
> Anthony of San Francisco served in the trenches with the Serbian Army.
> He ministered to the wounded and dying, not just in the safety of the
> Field Hospital, but in the trenches. It is said that he was communing a
> dying soldier when a bullet glanced off the chalice. What did Fr
> Anthony do? He did not run off and seek cover. He continued his
> prayers and then only then did he retreat to safety.
>
> And what of Vanya, a lieutenant in the Polish Army at Monte Casino? He
> prayed that he would not have to kill anyone during combat. God heard
> his prayer.
>
> Single-handed he stormed a German machine-gun nest and took the enemy
> prisoner. He told me that he fired into the air, hoping that he would
> not hurt anyone. The surprised Germans gave up without a fight. Vanya
> was decorated for bravery. Later St John of Shanghai awarded him a
> gramota for loyal service to the Church as choirmaster and warden. I
> had the honour of knowing this brave ‘pacifist’!
>
> Of course these values are totally lost on a generation that has been
> brought up on left-wing history texts. Should a boy show any signs of
> manhood, he is immediately referred to the shrink for a course of
> Ritalin. If this fails, he is made a pariah in our effeminate
> hedonistic society.
>
> When the Russian writer Solzhenitsyn first came to the west, he warned
> us that what had happened in Russia would happen on American soil. At
> that time I thought that what he was predicting was far-fetched
> nonsense. Today I think differently.
>
> The forces of the antichrist have already gathered in Europe and are
> making their demands known.
>
> Was Europe founded on sodomy and immorality? Was western civilization
> the product of socialist serfdom and godless humanism? No. Europe was
> founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition.
>
> America too was established by God-fearing men who founded that great
> nation on the basic Christian values, paying tribute to the virtues of
> sacrifice, honour and courage. Now we are being told that this is all
> bigotry and we have to consider other religions. We must not offend
> others with the truth. Not that the left cares about religion. The
> left hates absolutes except in its own godless religion of socialism.
>
> When I see the ‘No War’ stickers, I wonder whether these people driving
> their SUVs would start riding bicycles to avoid our need for oil. Would
> they stop flying in jets? Do they ever consider the brave men and women
> who gave their lives for the peace we enjoy?
>
> Perhaps we as Orthodox Christians are waging a rear-guard action.
> Nevertheless it is our duty to sacrifice ourselves as did those before
> us for what is true, honest, just, pure, is lovely, or of good report..
> (Phil 4: 8)
>
> Fr Serafim
>
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
I would not presume to waste the time of the Patriarchate with a such a
request.
lame reply. Quite literally, they are not in communion.
As usual when I travel in the Balkans, I bring along a bunch of our American
church programs we get on a weekly basis, Orthodox calendars in English,
etc. The monks I tlked to in Serbia and Montenegro last autumn were
delighted that the bulletins were form the OCA.
I can't count the number of times that I remember Serbian
Bishops and priests serving at the ROCOR Cathedral in San Francisco.
In the old days, ROCOR and Metropolia and Patriarchate people used
to regularly commune at each other's with the exception that no one from
Met. or ROCOR would take communion in the Patriarchate but the Patriarchate
people were welcome in ours.
I don't know who it is that you spoke to last night--I know there are
currently 3 bishops here in America: Metr. Christopher, Bishop
Mitrofan, and Bishop Longin. Why don't you identify your source?
I did. Read what I said. There is only ONE rep of the
SOC Patriarchate in America.
You don't say if you asked him about it.
Why would I. He has been serving off and on at the OCA cathedral
for three years and is an effective representative in DC
And if you did, I'm not sure
whether I could believe what you relay to me, since you can't appear to
keep straight the acronyms of the Synod and the Mansonville Schismatics.
Like I said to Father George (American ROCOR priest locally) about a year ago, that when a church gets to the point where you have to read up to learn who to dislike this week becuase of yet another ite or ism, and you can't remember which bishop it is these days giving the all holy legitimacy to the jurisdiction, things ain't normal in Kansas. He disagreed, of course, and was all set to explain to me why sojeone was a a Matthewite or a Danielist or some such.
Fr. Alexander Lebedeff had a post on this a couple years ago
http://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010D&L=orthodox&P=R8876&D=1&O=D&m=54423
Doesn't show official recognition between the jurisdictions.
>>
>>
>> What's the big problem?
>>
>
> The only problem is the numerous jursidictions we Orthodox have instead
> of getting along with one another. Everyone should be concelebrating,
> my opinion, regardless of calendar.I personally prefer the old, so do a
> lot of churches, and there is a reason for it. But I wouldn't claim
> someone a heretic for following the new or, if I were a priest,
> communing her or him.
>Who said anyone was an heretic over the calendar? As Al pointed out, in
Australia, even the New Calendarist Greeks concelebrate with ROCOR.The ROCOR and the Serbs do get along. Thats the whole point. The ROCOR
gets along with people a whole lot better than you seem to think.
The ROCOR is the only jurisdiction outside a few Serb churches doing
yearly memorial services to Drazha Mihailic. A lto of people are
ready to gather for that one, just like the yearly services to that Nazi
martyr General Vlasov. Fraws the crowds.
I've noticed recently, much to my pleasure, that every time St. Nicholas
(the ROCOR Cathedral in Seattle) has an event, I see photos of Fr. Vadim
Pogrebniak, the dean of the OCA cathedral there, in attendance.
Sounds healthy
>
> Quite the opposite. The divisions are unnecessary.
>Exactly. The Serbs know it. ROCOR knows it. That's why there is no
division between us.
But officially, there still are.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Galina
>> >
>>
AGGreen
"alight" <sheb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e83fe68$0$12819$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
***Then why were the Apostles advised to buy a sword and carry it with them
as they went out preaching and teaching, as St. Luke reported.
>
> Now if you think war is necessary then go fight with them. Will you go?
> Or are you just someone who hides behind the reality of war and killings?
>
> Thou shall not kill.
***Followd by: Thou shalt let thine infidel Moslem barbarians kill you!
>
> Who is he that denies God's commands? he who shall perish.
***What was St. Constantine doing when he saw the vision of the Holy Cross
in the Heavens?
Ephrem Bensusan
>> <http://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010D&L=orthodox&P=R8876&D=1&O=D&m=54423>
++
Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> Whatever Galina. Like I said--Orwellian.
>
> ++ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ephrem Bensusan wrote:
> >
> >> I would not presume to waste the time of the Patriarchate with a such a
> >> request.
Your answer is but an email away. Take the challenge.