Filthy ceremonies in church
Olena
baptized Orthodox or Ukrainian Catholic, then it seems that the wedding
would be fine.
Michelle
died as one....
If the bride was baptized Orthodox, then her religious lineage is of
no consequence.
Michelle
Sal0009 <sal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991130230202...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
> In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. I wrote
> letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just obstructs
> everything and refuses to act. He conducted matrimony and I found out
that the
> bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian. So
how
> can this be? This is Ukrainian church. I told the priest, and he says
the
> bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism.
Because
> this should not be allowed in church. So imagine - these people are
stupid or
> foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish,
then
> what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> 1/8....great-grandchildren? 1/16. So I wrote about this to bishop and
they are
> stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all parishioners
against
> me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
Olena
which Archbishop are you under?
Olena
> a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was baptised as a
> child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be allowed to
> receive baptism.
You cannot deny a child a sacrament. The parents wanted her to be
Orthodox. There is no problem in that. Just because her mother is of
Jewish descent does not mean that you should ban the baptism. There
really is NO reason to ban a baptism.
I was baptized Ukrainian Catholic, but had an Orthodox wedding. Neither
our Bishops or the Catholic bishop had a problem with that.
I don't see why you have such a problem with 2 Orthodox Christians
getting married in our church.
Lin & Wayne
> sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
>
> >In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. [snip]
> >He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
> >bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian.
>
> Egads!! My parish baptized someone of Jewish heritage a couple of years
> ago... me! Not only my mother, but my father also was Jewish -- and he
> was a Jew from Ukraine, no less!!
>
> > So how
> >can this be? This is Ukrainian church.
>
> Was it an Orthodox church? Or a Ukrainian church... In other words, was
> it a church which emphasizes right doctrine and worship, or right
> nationality??
>
> >I told the priest, and he says the
> >bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism.
>
> I guess that my priest, and bishop, join your priest and bishop in
> disagreeing with you here.
>
> > So imagine - these people are stupid or
> >foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
> >what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
>
> Although I am now divorced, before I became Christian I was married to a
> woman of Mexican heritage. Gee, what does that make my kids!?! (I love
> some of the ideas we come up with when confronted with applications
> asking about race...) And my son just married a woman who is part
> German, part British and part Swedish... What will my grandchildren
> be??? And will they fill their blini with gefilte fish and lutefisk and
> wienerschnitzel, and smother them with habanero chili sauce???
>
> My bet is that they'll be human beings, born into a world stained with
> sin, yet fully eligible to receive the grace of God. And they'll
> probably love Chinese food, like the rest of us.
>
> > So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
> >stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all parishioners against
> >me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
>
> Ummm -- could it be that your parish priest is right??? (As a memory
> jogger -- what was the "race" of the original apostles?)
>
> /Steven
It's nothing more than another troll, entering to rob us of our joy and peace during
this wonderful advent season. Why we insist on rising to the bait is beyond me.
Persons like this do not even deserve a response. The same can be said for the posts
of Gerard in which he continually baits us and those of evagrius...more subtle but
nonetheless unOrthodox. It is best to ignore such people and continue giving help to
true seekers and encouragement to fellow Orthodox believers.
--
Wayne
Sal0009
letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just obstructs
bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian. So how
can this be? This is Ukrainian church. I told the priest, and he says the
bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism. Because
this should not be allowed in church. So imagine - these people are stupid or
foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
Sal0009
>Maybe her mother is Jewish but her Father is Christian.
Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I know this for
a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was baptised as a
child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be allowed to
receive baptism.
>If she was
>baptized Orthodox or Ukrainian Catholic, then it seems that the wedding
>would be fine.
Orthodox, not Catholic. Its not fine. The wedding should be abrogated and
they should be banned from attending the parish. And the priest should be
transfered or removed for conducting this ceremony. they should be stopped.
Rachael
Sal0009 wrote :
> Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I know
this for
> a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was baptised as
a
> child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be allowed
to
> receive baptism.
If her parents are baptised, then they are Christians. If the bride was
baptised, she is a Christian as well. I don't understand the problem,
unless we're talking about good, old-fashioned anti-Semitism. THAT, in
itself, is a pretty bad problem! <smile>
Please, dear sir, remember that the first baptised followers of Christ
were Jews. As was Christ Himself.
~~Rachael
Catherine Hampton
: Maybe her mother is Jewish but her Father is Christian. If she was
: baptized Orthodox or Ukrainian Catholic, then it seems that the wedding
: would be fine.
If she is baptized Orthodox or Ukrainian Catholic, the race or religion
of her parents is utterly irrelevant. The priest rightly conducted
a wedding between two Christians.
That whole post sounded like some truly ugly racist nonsense. I
strongly suspect it was a troll -- a post intended to provoke a
flamewar rather than to discuss a real issue.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.hrweb.org/orthodox/>
St. Herman of Alaska * <http://www.stherman.sunnyvale.ca.us/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
Steve Nichols
>In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. [snip]
>He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
>bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian.
Egads!! My parish baptized someone of Jewish heritage a couple of years
ago... me! Not only my mother, but my father also was Jewish -- and he
was a Jew from Ukraine, no less!!
> So how
>can this be? This is Ukrainian church.
Was it an Orthodox church? Or a Ukrainian church... In other words, was
it a church which emphasizes right doctrine and worship, or right
nationality??
>I told the priest, and he says the
>bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism.
I guess that my priest, and bishop, join your priest and bishop in
disagreeing with you here.
> So imagine - these people are stupid or
>foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
>what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
Although I am now divorced, before I became Christian I was married to a
woman of Mexican heritage. Gee, what does that make my kids!?! (I love
some of the ideas we come up with when confronted with applications
asking about race...) And my son just married a woman who is part
German, part British and part Swedish... What will my grandchildren
be??? And will they fill their blini with gefilte fish and lutefisk and
wienerschnitzel, and smother them with habanero chili sauce???
My bet is that they'll be human beings, born into a world stained with
sin, yet fully eligible to receive the grace of God. And they'll
probably love Chinese food, like the rest of us.
> So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
>stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all parishioners against
>me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
Ummm -- could it be that your parish priest is right??? (As a memory
Catherine Hampton
: Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I know this for
: a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was baptised as a
: child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be allowed to
: receive baptism.
Christ Himself was Jewish. So were most of the great saints of the
first two centuries or so of the Church, including all but one of the
New Testament authors.
Further, what you said was blasphemous. NO ONE should be forbidden
baptism. No one should be barred from repentance and an opportunity
to know Christ. (Not even racists or religious bigots.)
T254
strongly suspect it was a troll -- a post intended to provoke a
flamewar rather than to discuss a real issue. >>
i think you hit the nail on the head on this one.
robert G Tallick
Sal0009
Sal0009
>Christ Himself was Jewish. So were most of the great saints of the
>first two centuries or so of the Church, including all but one of the
>New Testament authors.
>
>
You mean Apostle John who was Greek?
>Further, what you said was blasphemous. NO ONE should be forbidden
>baptism. No one should be barred from repentance and an opportunity
>to know Christ. (Not even racists or religious bigots.)
Give me a break! If stupidity and foolishness were great deeds, you'd be a
living saint long ago...
Olena
Sal0009
>The priest rightly conducted
>a wedding between two Christians.
>
>
You have no authority to judge that.
>That whole post sounded like some truly ugly racist nonsense. I
>strongly suspect it was a troll -- a post intended to provoke a
>flamewar rather than to discuss a real issue.
>
>
If you have nothing to say, then keep silent.
Steve Nichols
>It's nothing more than another troll, entering to rob us of our joy and peace during
>this wonderful advent season. Why we insist on rising to the bait is beyond me.
Sorry, Wayne, I have to admit that this bait was particularly tempting.
My late father, raised a Jew in Ukraine, would clam up when talking
about the persecution which the local "Christians" would give to the
family... He would say very little, but the terror in his eyes and in
his voice would say everything.
One of the toughest hurdles for my becoming Orthodox was overcoming the
dread of joining that very group which behaved so mercilessly to my
father.
>It is best to ignore such people and continue giving help to
>true seekers and encouragement to fellow Orthodox believers.
I basically agree, but we have to remember that there are lurkers who
see this sort of drivel, too. Perhaps -- Lord have mercy! -- someone
whom we've never heard of is looking at this newsgroup, trying to find
out about Orthodox Christianity. If that person were to see such
bigotry, and not see response by people who hold the Orthodox love of
their neighbors, what would that say to a "true seeker"? What would
that seeker think the "standard" Orthodox opinion of racism is?
If I had seen something like this three years ago, and there was no
response... I may well not have gone to an Orthodox liturgy. Ever.
I may not have been able to read past the hate, and notice that the
original poster had pointed out that his bishop and his priest were
solidly against him, and were turning the whole parish against him.
Seen in that context, this post frankly speaks favorably of Orthodoxy!
So, unfortunately, I think that some degree of response is necessary, to
help the unseen true seekers. But there's also a time to kick the dust
from our shoes... we can't let these threads clog up either the internet
or our lives.
And sometimes it's good to find out about these trolls -- they need our
prayers, too.
In Christ, /Steven
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
> In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. I wrote
> letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just obstructs
> everything and refuses to act. He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
> bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian. So how
> can this be? This is Ukrainian church. I told the priest, and he says the
> bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism. Because
> this should not be allowed in church. So imagine - these people are stupid or
> foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
> what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
In Christ there is no Greek nor Jew. There is nothing wrong with the proposed
marriage canonically
>
> 1/8....great-grandchildren? 1/16. So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
> Olena <supe...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >Maybe her mother is Jewish but her Father is Christian.
>
> Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I know this for
> a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was baptised as a
> child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be allowed to
> receive baptism.
Why not? THey are Christians now.
>
>
> >If she was
> >baptized Orthodox or Ukrainian Catholic, then it seems that the wedding
> >would be fine.
>
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
> Olena <supe...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >may I ask which parish this is?
>
> UOC-USA
> What about you?
No, which specific parish.
evagr...@my-deja.com
I am not a troll whose purpose is to destroy your little peace of mind.
I don't have the slightest interest in disturbing your world. However,
I don't take kindly to your continual insults of me. I doubt that you
have any ability to do anything more than insult, cowering behind false
piety while doing so. Keep waving your floppy Bible! I'll keep posting!
In article <3844B4B7...@pacifier.com>,
Lin & Wayne <lsh...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> Steve Nichols wrote:
>
> > sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> >
> > >In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony.
[snip]
> > >He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
> > >bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is
Ukrainian.
> >
> > Egads!! My parish baptized someone of Jewish heritage a couple of
years
> > ago... me! Not only my mother, but my father also was Jewish --
and he
> > was a Jew from Ukraine, no less!!
> >
> > > So how
> > >can this be? This is Ukrainian church.
> >
> > Was it an Orthodox church? Or a Ukrainian church... In other
words, was
> > it a church which emphasizes right doctrine and worship, or right
> > nationality??
> >
> > >I told the priest, and he says the
> > >bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving
baptism.
> >
> > I guess that my priest, and bishop, join your priest and bishop in
> > disagreeing with you here.
> >
> > > So imagine - these people are stupid or
> > >foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2
jewish, then
> > >what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> >
> > Although I am now divorced, before I became Christian I was married
to a
> > woman of Mexican heritage. Gee, what does that make my kids!?! (I
love
> > some of the ideas we come up with when confronted with applications
> > asking about race...) And my son just married a woman who is part
> > German, part British and part Swedish... What will my grandchildren
> > be??? And will they fill their blini with gefilte fish and
lutefisk and
> > wienerschnitzel, and smother them with habanero chili sauce???
> >
> > My bet is that they'll be human beings, born into a world stained
with
> > sin, yet fully eligible to receive the grace of God. And they'll
> > probably love Chinese food, like the rest of us.
> >
> > > So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
> > >stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all
parishioners against
> > >me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
> >
> > Ummm -- could it be that your parish priest is right??? (As a
memory
> > jogger -- what was the "race" of the original apostles?)
> >
> > /Steven
>
> It's nothing more than another troll, entering to rob us of our joy
and peace during
> this wonderful advent season. Why we insist on rising to the bait is
beyond me.
> Persons like this do not even deserve a response. The same can be
said for the posts
> of Gerard in which he continually baits us and those of
evagrius...more subtle but
> nonetheless unOrthodox. It is best to ignore such people and continue
giving help to
> true seekers and encouragement to fellow Orthodox believers.
>
> --
> Wayne
>
> http://sites.netscape.net/waynedouglas46/homepage
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
evagr...@my-deja.com
I'm curious. What is your logic behind your assertions? What is
unlawful? What texts can you cite in favor of your view?
In article <19991201012122...@ng-cf1.aol.com>,
Christopher Beattie
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I am not a troll .....
If you look carefully, I believe he was referring to Sal0009, not YOU
as a troll. Leaping that carelessly to conclusions might result in you
leaping into a precipice.
> In article <3844B4B7...@pacifier.com>,
> Lin & Wayne <lsh...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> > Steve Nichols wrote:
> > > sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
--
Peace & Good!
Christopher Beattie SFO
KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.
christopher
sal...@aol.com says...
> In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. I wrote
> letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just obstructs
> everything and refuses to act. He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
> bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian. So how
> can this be? This is Ukrainian church. I told the priest, and he says the
> bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism. Because
> foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
> what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all parishioners against
> me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
>
So what is the problem?? The bride is an Orthodox Christian of Jewish
descent??? Nothing wrong there.
evagr...@my-deja.com
He did not directly call me a troll, but he did imply it.
So......I did a Nixon........sorry.
In article <823rn0$pn9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Cfortunato
>first two centuries or so of the Church, including all but one of the
>New Testament authors
No, he means Luke.
Do you think John was Greek?
Lin & Wayne
> Catherine Hampton <x...@hrweb.org> scribbled:
>
> >The priest rightly conducted
> >a wedding between two Christians.
> >
> >
>
> You have no authority to judge that.
>
> >That whole post sounded like some truly ugly racist nonsense. I
> >strongly suspect it was a troll -- a post intended to provoke a
> >flamewar rather than to discuss a real issue.
> >
> >
>
> If you have nothing to say, then keep silent.
You, SIR, are a racist and furthermore you are most certainly NOT
Orthodox. For the past several months we have witnessed ugly posts such
as yours, no doubt inspired by the Evil One. It is YOU who should remain
silent and learn from the Christians on this newsgroup. You have invaded
our home, burst in unvited and yet you have the unmitigated gall to tell
a long-standing member here to remain silent? Please, take your bigotry
elsewhere...none of us are buying the sin you are trying to sell.
--
Wayne
T254
living saint long ago...>>
You mean the same attributes that keep you from being a true Orthodox
Christian.
robert G Tallick
Cushingura
"Rachael" <ken...@home.nospamcom> wrote:
>
> Sal0009 wrote :
>
> > Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I
know
> this for
> > a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was
baptised as
> a
> > child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be
allowed
> to
> > receive baptism.
>
bride was
> baptised, she is a Christian as well. I don't understand the problem,
> unless we're talking about good, old-fashioned anti-Semitism. THAT,
> in itself, is a pretty bad problem! <smile>
There's nothing old fashioned about it. What our strange little
friend is ascribing to is a variant of neo-paganism.
Pretty soon he'll be trying to tell us that Jesus was actually an Aryan.
They all do. :)
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
Phil (Silouan) Thompson
> >Christ Himself was Jewish. So were most of the great saints of the
> >first two centuries or so of the Church, including all but one of the
> You mean Apostle John who was Greek?
John is a Hebrew name. You'll find plenty of Jews named Yehohanan [John] in
the pre-Christian apocrypha, but you'll find no historical references to
anybody named Ioannes [John] until after Christ.
Silouan
Phil (Silouan) Thompson
>And will they fill their blini with gefilte fish and lutefisk and
> wienerschnitzel, and smother them with habanero chili sauce???
Please, Steve! It's the fast!
That recipe actually sounded good to me... :)
Silouan
Cushingura
sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. I
wrote
> letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just obstructs
> everything and refuses to act. He conducted matrimony and I found out
that the
> bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian.
So how
> can this be?
If you don't know the answer to this, I think you might want to talk
with your parents about the birds and the bees.
> This is Ukrainian church.
No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
>I told the priest, and he
> says the bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving
> baptism. Because this should not be allowed in church.
Open your Bible to Matthew 28:19.
> So imagine - these people are stupid or foolish - what will happen to
> their children?
They'll be baptized Orthodox Christians. What is it to you?
> since she is 1/2
>jewish, then
> what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> 1/8....great-grandchildren? 1/16. So I wrote about this to bishop and
> they are stonewalling me.
That's because they'd rather not excommunicate you for phyletism unless
their forced to.
Keep it up though, and you'll get it.
> And parish priest is trying to align all
> parishioners against me.
Glad to hear it. Good for him.
> I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
Just keep it up. You'll get one.
Until then you might want to ponder what Orthodoxy teaches us, and you
might understand why the Church isn't responding:
"One day a pilgrim came to see us. He complained bitterly about the
Jews and abused them. he had been going about the villages and had to
put up with their unfriendliness and cheating. he was so bitter against
them that he cursed them, even saying they were not fit to live because
of their obstinacy and unbelief. Finally he said that he had such an
aversion for them that it was quite beyond his control.
'You have no right, friend," said the *starets* [a Greek Athonite
monk] "to abuse and curse the Jews like this. God made
them jus as He made us. You should be sorry for them and pray for them,
not curse them. Believe me, the disgust you fell for them comes from
the fact that your are not grounded in the love of God and *have no
interior prayer as a security [my emphasis] and , therefore no inward
peace. I will read you a passage from the Holy Fathers about this.
Listen this is what Mark the Podvizhnik writes: 'The sould which is
inwardly untied to God becomes, in the greatness of its joy, like a good
natured, simple-hearted child, and now condemns no one, Greek, heathen,
Jew, nor sinner, but looks at them with sight that has been cleansed,
finds joy in the whole world, and wants everybody--Greeks and Jews and
heathen-- to praise God.' And Macarius the Great, of Egypt, says that
the inward contemplative 'burns with so great a love that if it were
possible he would have everyone dwell within him, making no differnce
between bad and good.' There dear brother, you see what the Holy
Fathers think about it, so I advise you to lay aside your fierceness,
and look upon everything as being under the all-knowing providence of
God, and when you meet vexations accuse yourself especially of lack of
patience and humility."
The Pilgrim Continues His Way, translated by RM French.
Atsaves
Joachim conducted with couples facing idiots such as this poster. You will see
what complaints they have about people like you with your attitudes. You won't
like what you hear either!
If the bride was baptised and the groom was baptised then they could become
properly married in the Church, notwithstanding your incredible ignorance on
this topic.
The fact that her mother is or was "Jewish" means nothing in this scenerio.
What will happen to the children, you ask? After this newly wedded couple and
their children face you and your torture tactics in Church a few times, and you
make them as welcome in Church as toxic nuclear waste, they will leave the
Church and you will celebrate and bask in your unforgivable ignorance.
I suggest you consult with your Bishop and your Priest as to the rules and
regulations our Church uses in deciding on whether to bless a marriage or not
before attacking this couple any further with your ignorance.
Your Priest and Bishop sound like they knew what they were doing. You don't!
Louis Geo. Atsaves
(The Orthodox member of an inter-Christian marriage)
<< Subject: Filthy ceremonies in church
From: sal...@aol.com (Sal0009)
Date: Tue, 30 November 1999 11:02 PM EST
Message-id: <19991130230202...@ng-fn1.aol.com>
In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony. I wrote
letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just obstructs
everything and refuses to act. He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is Ukrainian. So how
can this be? This is Ukrainian church. I told the priest, and he says the
bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving baptism. Because
this should not be allowed in church. So imagine - these people are stupid or
foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
1/8....great-grandchildren? 1/16. So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all parishioners against
me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
>>
Atsaves
a child? Or is it the daughter was baptised as a child?
Jews should be banned from baptism?
Didn't John the Baptist baptise a Jew? Should we make this a multiple choice
answer like Regis Philben does in "You Want To Be A Millionaire?" Are you
comfortable with your answer? Positive? You need a few hints? Want to call
someone first?
I love ignorance. Leave this couple alone. You are the one with the problem
here, not them. They can be happily married in the Church. Make them feel
welcome and if you can't at least leave them alone.
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Filthy ceremonies in church
From: sal...@aol.com (Sal0009)
Date: Tue, 30 November 1999 11:41 PM EST
Message-id: <19991130234151...@ng-fw1.aol.com>
Olena <supe...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Maybe her mother is Jewish but her Father is Christian.
Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I know this for
a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was baptised as a
child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be allowed to
receive baptism.
>If she was
Cushingura
Xste...@pacific.net wrote:
[...]
> > So imagine - these people are stupid or
> >foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2
jewish, then
> >what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
>
> a woman of Mexican heritage. Gee, what does that make my kids!?! (I
> love
> some of the ideas we come up with when confronted with applications
> asking about race...) And my son just married a woman who is part
> German, part British and part Swedish...
You think you got problems? My father's Jewish, my mother's Scottish,
Swedish, Irish and English and my girlfriend is Palestinian. I already
feel for my kids!! :)
> What will my grandchildren
> be???
I think the term American usually covers this quite nicely. ;)
> And will they fill their blini with gefilte fish and lutefisk
> and wienerschnitzel, and smother them with habanero chili sauce???
I wouldn't want to be in an enclosed environment with them if they did!!
> My bet is that they'll be human beings, born into a world stained with
> sin, yet fully eligible to receive the grace of God. And they'll
> probably love Chinese food, like the rest of us.
Just so Gerard doesn't pounce on you, Steve: You mean the World is
stained with sin, not the babies?
> > So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
> >stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all
> parishioners against
> >me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
>
> Ummm -- could it be that your parish priest is right??? (As a memory
> jogger -- what was the "race" of the original apostles?)
Inuit? Samoan? Swahili?
Best Regards,
Bryan J. Maloney
> foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2 jewish, then
> what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
You know what's even worse, Sal?
There's some mendicant rabble-rouser named Yshua who's 100% Jewish, and
your Church building has pictures of Him plastered all over the place!
Lin & Wayne
> Mr. Andres,
>
> I am not a troll whose purpose is to destroy your little peace of mind.
> I don't have the slightest interest in disturbing your world. However,
> I don't take kindly to your continual insults of me. I doubt that you
> have any ability to do anything more than insult, cowering behind false
> piety while doing so. Keep waving your floppy Bible! I'll keep posting!
>
> In article <3844B4B7...@pacifier.com>,
> Lin & Wayne <lsh...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> > Steve Nichols wrote:
> >
> > > sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> > >
> > > >In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony.
> [snip]
> > > >He conducted matrimony and I found out that the
> > > >bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is
> Ukrainian.
> > >
> > > Egads!! My parish baptized someone of Jewish heritage a couple of
> years
> > > ago... me! Not only my mother, but my father also was Jewish --
> and he
> > > was a Jew from Ukraine, no less!!
> > >
> > > > So how
> > > >can this be? This is Ukrainian church.
> > >
> > > Was it an Orthodox church? Or a Ukrainian church... In other
> words, was
> > > it a church which emphasizes right doctrine and worship, or right
> > > nationality??
> > >
> > > >I told the priest, and he says the
> > > >bride was baptised. So they should be banned from receiving
> baptism.
> > >
> > > I guess that my priest, and bishop, join your priest and bishop in
> > > disagreeing with you here.
> > >
> > > > So imagine - these people are stupid or
> > > >foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2
> jewish, then
> > > >what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> > >
> > > Although I am now divorced, before I became Christian I was married
> to a
> > > woman of Mexican heritage. Gee, what does that make my kids!?! (I
> love
> > > some of the ideas we come up with when confronted with applications
> > > asking about race...) And my son just married a woman who is part
> > > German, part British and part Swedish... What will my grandchildren
> > > be??? And will they fill their blini with gefilte fish and
> lutefisk and
> > > wienerschnitzel, and smother them with habanero chili sauce???
> > >
> > > My bet is that they'll be human beings, born into a world stained
> with
> > > sin, yet fully eligible to receive the grace of God. And they'll
> > > probably love Chinese food, like the rest of us.
> > >
> > > > So I wrote about this to bishop and they are
> > > >stonewalling me. And parish priest is trying to align all
> parishioners against
> > > >me. I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
> > >
> > > Ummm -- could it be that your parish priest is right??? (As a
> memory
> > > jogger -- what was the "race" of the original apostles?)
> > >
> > > /Steven
> >
> > It's nothing more than another troll, entering to rob us of our joy
> and peace during
> > this wonderful advent season. Why we insist on rising to the bait is
> beyond me.
> > Persons like this do not even deserve a response. The same can be
> said for the posts
> > of Gerard in which he continually baits us and those of
> evagrius...more subtle but
> > nonetheless unOrthodox. It is best to ignore such people and continue
> giving help to
> > true seekers and encouragement to fellow Orthodox believers.
> >
> > --
> > Wayne
> >
> > http://sites.netscape.net/waynedouglas46/homepage
> >
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
The more you post, the more you confirm that you are not an Orthodox
Christian Mr. Vasquez. You insult, you demonstrate pride, you have little
respect for the Church of Christ...no...it is your little world filled only
with your proud vision of your scholastic abilities which is threatened.
Most Orthodox have long since tagged you for what you are: a little arrogant
peacock playing at being Orthodox. You are not worth my time or peace of
mind to bother reading your foolish posts. Back to killfile for you. Oh, and
by all means - post away. A leopard cannot change its spots and you will
only further confirm what we already know to be the case.
--
Wayne
Marina Robb
banned.
Mr. Troll, you are a disgrace to Christ and His Church.
Marina
evagrius
I just visited your web-site. Nery nice. I now understand your
antipathy for me, given your very long sojourn in an evangelical church.
You describe your first visit to an Orthodox Church as going against
your "western mindset" ,that it attracted and repelled you, with its
chants, icons, incense etc;
I, raised as a Catholic, had no such experience. Indeed, I was familiar
with chants; Gregorian chant is quite lovely and powerful, icons; there
are icons and statues in Catholic churches, where people light candles,
just as Orthodox do, incense; yes, the Catholic church has incense too,
bodily movements; Catholics kneel, stand etc;, it's a bit different
from Orthodox but not much. The Liturgy itself was not confusing; the
basic structure is the same; different prayers but the epiclesis is
there and the Words of Institution. So....it wasn't the culture shock
you had, nor the intellectual or spiritual shock.
Indeed, it felt quite comfortable. I received communion even though I
was Catholic. The priest gave me a look but he gave it anyway. He was
in an Antiochian Orthodox Church in Los Altos, Ca. Catherine Hampton
knows him.
Now, as an Orthodox from a Catholic background, I see no need to
belittle my former expression of faith, to insult it or to state
misinformation on it. I do see the need to have the differences
clarified and elucidated, but without polemic, hatred or rancor.
I don't need to argue about the "one, true Church" because that
argument leads nowhere. It reflects the same attitude that Catholics
had in the fifties, known as triumphalism and it reflects an
evangelical "mindset", (perhaps its source of origin).
I would rather argue that all sides need to abandon stubborness, hatred
and pride, and have honest dialogue, not polemic.
You seem to have a psychological inability to do that because you need
to convince yourself, over and over again, that you made the right
"choice".
I don't have that need. Orthodoxy chose me, not vice-versa. I was
always Orthodox, just as most Catholics are, whether they know it or
not. Catholic saints, the great ones, are fully Orthodox, in their life
and they lead Catholics to Orthodoxy just as the Orthodox ones do.
You come from a different world, a different spiritual world. It's not
mine.
I acknowledge that but you don't.
I also acknowledge that I am biased against evangelicals.....because
they're anti-Catholic.
You will never be fully Orthodox until you cease being
anti-Catholic...which doesn't mean becoming Catholic, just not hating
or belittling them but respecting their faith.
You will never be fully Orthodox until you see all human beings as
icons of Christ. If you do.....then you don't need to belittle or
insult them, do you?
In article <38457553...@pacifier.com>, Lin & Wayne
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
sp...@erols.com
You seem to be saying that becuase you were Roman Catholic, you had no problem
being Orthodox. But why, since you spend the majority of your time on this
netgroup suggesting the validity of ROman Catholicism and the problems of
Orthodoxy, did you ever become Orthodox. Or did you?
Lin & Wayne
notions. I have determined to end discussion with this person, but his
distortions, lack of reading skills, and rather inflated opinion of his ability
to pigeon-hole each and everyone with whom he has a disagreement, has caused me
to write this final post to him. Indeed, knowing his insufferable pride and
psychological need to have the last word, thus putting everything in its proper
perspective as far as he is concerned... I will allow him that privilege.
> Mr. Andres,
>
> I just visited your web-site. Nery nice. I now understand your
> antipathy for me, given your very long sojourn in an evangelical church.
Oh. You are now a mind reader, I take it. Becaues of my background you believe
you are able to understand my own antipathy towards you? How very smug of you.
Does the word ARROGANT ASS ring a bell with you?
> Now, as an Orthodox from a Catholic background, I see no need to
> belittle my former expression of faith, to insult it or to state
> misinformation on it.
Are you suggesting I belittle my evangelical past, Mr. Pomposity? I don't. It
was that very past that led me to the ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
What you happen to do in regards to your Roman background is of no interest to
me whatsoever.
> I don't need to argue about the "one, true Church" because that
> argument leads nowhere.
Really? The Orthodox Church, Mr. Vasquez, IS the One, true Church. If you find
that triumphalistic, it is because of YOUR background. The fact that you choke
on it demonstrates you still, with all your pseudo learning, do NOT fully
understand that of which the One Church is comprised.
> It reflects the same attitude that Catholics
> had in the fifties, known as triumphalism and it reflects an
> evangelical "mindset", (perhaps its source of origin).
No. It doesn't. This is a rather infantile generalization used by someone who
has never fully given up Romanism nor fully entered into the true Church.
>
> I would rather argue that all sides need to abandon stubborness, hatred
> and pride, and have honest dialogue, not polemic.
No. You would rather demonstrate what you believe to be your scholastic
knowledge. Funny. The only person you are hoodwinking is YOURSELF. The true
theological scholars on this newsgroup have never been taken in by you. Your
time here among us has been nothing BUT polemic, rancor, hatred, stubborness and
PRIDE.
>
> You seem to have a psychological inability to do that because you need
> to convince yourself, over and over again, that you made the right
> "choice".
Wrong. You are once again assuming and you know that a person who assumes is an
ass. I do NOT need to convince myself of anything. It is YOU, however, who have
never truly left Romanism and now must find ways to convince yourself that
Orthodoxy is but another expression of Romanism.
>
> I don't have that need. Orthodoxy chose me, not vice-versa. I was
> always Orthodox, just as most Catholics are,
You have NEVER been Orthodox. Orthodoxy never chose you. The Holy Spirit draws
whom He will. Saying that most Catholics are...blah blah blah...is nothing more
than an unsupported generalization. You love generalizations, don't you Mr.
Vasquez. It puts everyone in neat little packages and gives order to your rather
pathetic little world. It makes you believe you understand each and everyone and
furthers your erroneous belief that you are better and more knowledgeable than
the rest of us. Has it ever occurred to you how many persons on this newsgroup
with whom you have problems? Have you ever noticed how you cannot let a single
post regarding yourself to pass by...but MUST have the last word? That is
because you are a pompous little man who believes that the world revolves around
himself alone.
> You come from a different world, a different spiritual world. It's not
> mine.
Right. I do NOT come from your world, Vasquez. I come from a world in which I
loved the Lord more than myself. You have demonstrated that you believe YOU ARE
GOD. It seems to me that if Christ Himself posted a piece on this newsgroup, you
would call Him to task for it if it in anyway diverged from your own
single-minded grasp of theology. Pathetic.
> I also acknowledge that I am biased against evangelicals.....because
> they're anti-Catholic.
Heh heh. Now we have an admission here. But really, we all knew this to be true
anyway. We know you are a bigotted little man and also one who loves to make
sweeping generalizations. You're so predictable you are rather laughable.
>
> You will never be fully Orthodox until you cease being
> anti-Catholic...which doesn't mean becoming Catholic, just not hating
> or belittling them but respecting their faith.
First off, I am Orthodox. It is YOU who are NOT Orthodox. Furthermore you have
no right to say I hate or belittle Roman Catholics. In fact, while you may
"think" after reading my short Bumpy Road to Orthodoxy, that you know me...you
do not. You have no idea what my association with the Roman Church has been nor
who in my own family happen to be Roman Catholic. Once again, as Marina has
pointed out countless times, you do have considerable reading comprehension
difficulties.
>
> You will never be fully Orthodox until you see all human beings as
> icons of Christ. If you do.....then you don't need to belittle or
> insult them, do you?
But of course your own sarcastic posts towards me and so many others on this
newsgroup (after all, it was you who said you only hung around here for the sake
of entertainment thus the fact that you take exception to so many speaks to the
lie of that assertion)...the admission of your hatred towards
evangelicals...THIS qualifies you as Orthodox? Hahahaha..you are truly pathetic.
Judas, while made in the image and likeness of God, was a traitor, pure and
simple. Those who put their hand to the plow and turn back are not FIT for the
Kingdom. If you continue to claim to be what you consistently demonstrate
yourself not to be (an Orthodox Christian), you are such a person. Frankly, I
feel a real sense of pity for you, Vasquez. You are and likely will remain, a
prisoner of your own ego. Until you are knocked off that high horse of yours and
admit that others may in fact know more than yourself, you will remain lost and
"kicking against the pricks" as it were.
Now, I have wasted far too much time and effort with you, Vasquez. Go back to
your little world of Vasquez and company vs all others. Climb back atop your
soapbox and demonstrate to all who will give you the time, how truly Christian
you are...how wonderfully knowledgeable you are...how meek and mild you are.
Catherine Hampton
: He did not directly call me a troll, but he did imply it.
Uh... Actually, Evagrius, he didn't -- this time. He was referring
to the unspeakable little idiot who started this thread, not you.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.hrweb.org/orthodox/>
St. Herman of Alaska * <http://www.stherman.sunnyvale.ca.us/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
evagrius
Because there are those on this NG who attack Roman Catholicism with
erroneous information, slander or libel, hatred, rancor and polemic.
Many of the charges made against Roman Catholicism are wrong, based on
information reflecting Roman Catholic theology before Vatican II. I've
noticed that a lot of the "snippy" petty points are erroneous and do
not reflect Roman Catholic theology in its current state. Oftentimes,
they are caricatures of the real beliefs and practices of Roman
Catholics. I've noticed that especially with evangelical converts to
Orthodoxy who come with a built-in prejudice and do not bother to
correct it. They ,instead, are re-enforced in their prejudices and
misinformation by Orthodox who are equally ignorant of Catholicism and
who also don't bother to correct their misunderstanding.
My criticisms of Orthodoxy are based on my love for its value and
treasure. I don't want to see Orthodoxy react to the world like the
servant who buried his talent in Christ's parable. Far too often, I see
Orthodox quite smug about their faith, not seeing that it has to risk
itself in the world. Burying its treasure does not make Orthodoxy
present to the world nor follow the Gospel..."if a seed dies...".
If you read my posts about Roman Catholicism, I've never said anything
that was contrary to the official position of the Orthodox Church. I
just don't agree with the more rabid elements, those who reject the
world and hug their icons, refusing to let anyone else see them.
By the way, I saw an article in the Manchester Guardian about the new
Moscow Cathedral. It had a picture in it of the Patriarch and a patron
pointing to a huge icon of the Christ-Child. Unfortunately, the icon
was,to say the least, very bad. Have you ever heard of Charles Keane?
He became a millionaire in the 70's with his paintings of children with
huge, huge, eyes. The icon of the Christ-Child had huge "Keane" eyes.
Terrible.
evagrius
You prove your case, regarding the depths of your own Orthodoxy.
You really are angry aren't you? You haven't stopped being angry, have
you? You admmitted on your site you have problems with anger. Well,
work on it by letting me be.
By the way, why do you pose yourself on your site?
Humility?
I'm sorry. You do come from a different place than I do. You can think
whatever you want, just leave me alone by not insulting me.
Don't you pay attention to the One you claim as Lord? Did He tell you
to call me an ass, or a Judas or non-Christian?
In article <3845A401...@pacifier.com>, Lin & Wayne
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
evagrius
Heh, heh. Great quote but a bad typo there, "untied" for "united".
Very dyslexic!
However, your quote shows the very best of Orthodoxy, indeed, of what
religion is really all about.
Thanks for sharing it.
In article <8249b9$479$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Cushingura
<crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <19991130230202...@ng-fn1.aol.com>,
> sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> > In church, the priest conducts unlawful non-canonical ceremony.
> I
> wrote
> > letters to bishop and discussed this wth priest and he just
> obstructs
> > everything and refuses to act. He conducted matrimony and I
> found out
> that the
> > bride's mother is of jewish descent. And the bridegroom is
> Ukrainian.
> So how
> > can this be?
> If you don't know the answer to this, I think you might want to
> talk
> with your parents about the birds and the bees.
> > This is Ukrainian church.
> No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
> jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
> >I told the priest, and he
> > says the bride was baptised. So they should be banned from
> receiving
> > baptism. Because this should not be allowed in church.
> Open your Bible to Matthew 28:19.
> > So imagine - these people are stupid or foolish - what will
> happen to
> > their children?
> They'll be baptized Orthodox Christians. What is it to you?
> > since she is 1/2
> >jewish, then
> > what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> > 1/8....great-grandchildren? 1/16. So I wrote about this to
> bishop and
> > they are stonewalling me.
> That's because they'd rather not excommunicate you for phyletism
> unless
> their forced to.
> Keep it up though, and you'll get it.
> > And parish priest is trying to align all
> > parishioners against me.
> Glad to hear it. Good for him.
> > I wrote a letter asking to remove him and got no response.
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
sp...@erols.com
evagrius wrote:
> Ms. Galina,
>
> Because there are those on this NG who attack Roman Catholicism with
> .
> If you read my posts about Roman Catholicism,
Almost all your posts are on Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy
> I've never said anything
> that was contrary to the official position of the Orthodox Church.
You have, and that's why I killfiled you for a long time. Now I have modified
killfiling to include anyone who posts in an interesting thread.
> I
> just don't agree with the more rabid elements, those who reject the
> world and hug their icons, refusing to let anyone else see them.
> By the way, I saw an article in the Manchester Guardian about the new
> Moscow Cathedral. It had a picture in it of the Patriarch and a patron
> pointing to a huge icon of the Christ-Child. Unfortunately, the icon
> was,to say the least, very bad. Have you ever heard of Charles Keane?
> He became a millionaire in the 70's with his paintings of children with
> huge, huge, eyes. The icon of the Christ-Child had huge "Keane" eyes.
> Terrible.
Iconography is not intended as realistic painting. Bulgarians have wooden panel
icons in one traditional style in which the pupils of the eyes are drilled
holes. You might find that ugly or not. Iconography is not intended to be
corporeally, romantically beautiful, only spiritually beautiful. i have seen
folk icons with large eyes, and certain famous RUssian ones are like this, that
I find quite beautiful. But, here you are again, bashing something Orthodox.
I notice that you failed to answer my question. OK, I will rephrase. When, if
ever, were you chrismated Orthodox and why did you leave ROman Cathlicism IF YOU
LEFT.
Galina
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>You, SIR, are a racist and furthermore you are most certainly NOT
>Orthodox. For the past several months we have witnessed ugly posts such
>as yours, no doubt inspired by the Evil One. It is YOU who should remain
>silent and learn from the Christians on this newsgroup. You have invaded
>our home, burst in unvited and yet you have the unmitigated gall to tell
>a long-standing member here to remain silent? Please, take your bigotry
>elsewhere...none of us are buying the sin you are trying to sell.
I agree completely. The man is a raving anti-Semite as well as a
lunatic. According to him, one cannot be a Christian if one is even
1/4 Jewish, and this "taint of blood" continues through all future
generations! Not even the Nazis went that far.
Olena
Oh, my buddy Antony!
(I'm no longer under him, I'm under Vsevolod.)
Olena
> husband of an Albanian Orthodox who attends there and he is an American. Number of
> nationalities there, as is proper in every Orthodox church. It is far more
> important to be orthodox than to belong to some ethnic social club
>
I agree, we even had a few of Irish decent in our church.
Cushingura
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> > this should not be allowed in church. So imagine - these people
are stupid or
> > foolish - what will happen to their children? since she is 1/2
jewish, then
> > what will their children be? 1/4 jewish. And grandchildren?
> > 1/8....great-grandchildren? 1/16. So I wrote about this to bishop
and they
>
>
> There's some mendicant rabble-rouser named Yshua who's 100% Jewish,
> and your Church building has pictures of Him plastered all over the
> place!
What's more, I hear He's got a gang of about 12, and even His mother is
in on the conspiracy!
Derek Copold.
Sal0009
Sal0009
>Now you say both parents were baptised and the "Jewish" mother was baptised
>as
>a child? Or is it the daughter was baptised as a child?
Both parents are baptised. Her father i Ukrainian and was probably baptised as
a child. Her mother os of jewish descent and probably was baptised as a
convert. The daughter was baptised as a child. However, these baptisms are
obviously invalid.
>Jews should be banned from baptism?
No conversions to be allowed for damned people.
>I love ignorance.
I don't.
> Leave this couple alone.
When they will divorce and leave the parish (the bride and her family, at
least), nobody will bother them.
You are the one with the problem
>here, not them.
That may be your opinion, but it is not the opinion of the Church.
> They can be happily married in the Church.
No. If they wish to engage in illegal behavior, they can go somewhere else.
They should not disrupt traditional church institutions.
> Make them feel
>welcome and if you can't at least leave them alone.
See above.
Sal0009
>You know what's even worse, Sal?
>
>
>There's some mendicant rabble-rouser named Yshua who's
This is a particularly ugly example of blasphemy. (even though I doubt you
intended it to be that way). It has a Protestant stench though.
Steve Nichols
>Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>> There's some mendicant rabble-rouser named Yshua who's 100% Jewish,
>> and your Church building has pictures of Him plastered all over the
>> place!
>
>What's more, I hear He's got a gang of about 12, and even His mother is
>in on the conspiracy!
Yeah, they say that whole gang is Jewish. Do you figure that they're a
bunch of lawyers and bankers, just making life miserable for the honest
carpenters and fishermen of the area?
//Steven
Sal0009
>> This is Ukrainian church.
>
>No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
>jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
No. The Ukrainian Church is for Ukrainians.
If you see "Bulgarian Orthodox Church", do you expect to find a Chinese priest
and an Albanian parish there?!
>Open your Bible to Matthew 28:19.
>
>
And?
>> So imagine - these people are stupid or foolish - what will happen to
>> their children?
>
>They'll be baptized Orthodox Christians. What is it to you?
>
>
Its not just "to me". The Church should not sponsor and conduct non-canonical
ceremonies.
>That's because they'd rather not excommunicate you for phyletism unless
>their forced to.
Don't worry, Mr. Copold. I am not the one up for excommunication here.
>Keep it up though, and you'll get it.
>
>
Isn't the real reason you are so enraged and call for "excommunication" because
you, sir, are yourself in a situation where your baptism is invalid due to the
same reasons?:) Or am I wrong, Mr. Copold?:) Isn't the same true about most of
those who attacked me, like Mr. Nichols and Ms. Rachel Kenoyer?:)) -:)
Catherine Hampton
:> You know what's even worse, Sal?
:> There's some mendicant rabble-rouser named Yshua who's 100% Jewish,
:> and your Church building has pictures of Him plastered all over the
:> place!
: What's more, I hear He's got a gang of about 12, and even His mother is
: in on the conspiracy!
A gang of twelve to the eighth power or so....
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
> Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >> This is Ukrainian church.
> >
> >No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
> >jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
>
> No. The Ukrainian Church is for Ukrainians.
>
> If you see "Bulgarian Orthodox Church", do you expect to find a Chinese priest
> and an Albanian parish there?!
Actually, at the Bulgarian church in Hollywood, California, the reader is the
husband of an Albanian Orthodox who attends there and he is an American. Number of
nationalities there, as is proper in every Orthodox church. It is far more
important to be orthodox than to belong to some ethnic social club
>
>
Cushingura
sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >> This is Ukrainian church.
> >
> >No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
> >jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
>
> No. The Ukrainian Church is for Ukrainians.
Do you do blood tests?
>
> If you see "Bulgarian Orthodox Church", do you expect to find a
> Chinese priest and an Albanian parish there?!
I wouldn't expect it, but it would be a pleasant surprise.
> >Open your Bible to Matthew 28:19.
> >
> >
>
> And?
"Go ye therefore unto ***ALL MEN*** baptizing them in the name of the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
There's nothing in there about "except Jews" or any other group for that
matter.
> >> So imagine - these people are stupid or foolish - what will happen
to
> >> their children?
> >
> >They'll be baptized Orthodox Christians. What is it to you?
> >
> >
>
> Its not just "to me". The Church should not sponsor and conduct
> non-canonical ceremonies.
Can you kindly point to the canon that backs up your position?
> >That's because they'd rather not excommunicate you for phyletism
unless
> >their forced to.
>
> Don't worry, Mr. Copold. I am not the one up for excommunication
> here.
Oh? Really?
OK. I go to St. George's Antiochian in Houston under Bishop Basil.
Give me your full name and jurisdiction and we'll see who stays after
you state your case.
However, I suggest you read the encyclical on phyletism first.
Otherwise the only churches that'll accept you are these:
http://www.wtotc.org
http://www.creator.org
> >Keep it up though, and you'll get it.
> >
> >
>
> Isn't the real reason you are so enraged and call for
> "excommunication" because you, sir, are yourself in a situation where
> your baptism is invalid due to the same reasons?:) Or am I wrong, Mr.
> Copold?:) Isn't the same true about most of those who attacked me, >
> like Mr. Nichols and Ms. Rachel Kenoyer?:)) -:)
Would you have us wear yellow stars as well?
Tell me, Sal. Do you sing yourself to sleep at night with
the Host Wessel Lied?
Derek Copold
BTW, Kenoyer's of Jewish descent too?
evagr...@my-deja.com
I know that but he didn't need to include me in his tirade, did he?
He gets his knickers in a twist everytime he reads my posts.
I usually ignore him but my patience sometimes wears out.
In article <s4b98h...@corp.supernews.com>,
Catherine Hampton <x...@hrweb.org> wrote:
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> : He did not directly call me a troll, but he did imply it.
>
> Uh... Actually, Evagrius, he didn't -- this time. He was referring
> to the unspeakable little idiot who started this thread, not you.
>
> --
> Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
> Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
> Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.hrweb.org/orthodox/>
> St. Herman of Alaska * <http://www.stherman.sunnyvale.ca.us/>
>
> (Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
> spam trap.)
>
Cushingura
Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[...]
> http://www.wtotc.org
Typo:
Sal's future church home is actually at:
Derek Copold
evagr...@my-deja.com
If you killfile me all the time, then how do you know that I don't post
regarding Orthodoxy?
I consider killfiling to be a peculiar practice. It means that the
killfiler only wants to read what is comfortable; one might as well be
writing to oneself. It's a very interesting form of solipsism. "A small
circle of friends", in public, shutting out all others, smugly Orthodox
yet afraid to tolerate criticism or deep questions. It's a cowardly
route.
It's the equivalent of the steward burying his talent.
In article <3845C71E...@erols.com>,
sp...@erols.com wrote:
>
>
> evagrius wrote:
>
> > Ms. Galina,
> >
> > Because there are those on this NG who attack Roman Catholicism with
> > .
> > If you read my posts about Roman Catholicism,
>
> Almost all your posts are on Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy
How do you know if you killfile me all the time?
>
> > I've never said anything
> > that was contrary to the official position of the Orthodox Church.
>
> You have
Where? I'm discussing the official position of the Orthodox Church, not
your or other's particular version of it. After all, there is supposed
to be freedom in Orthodoxy,( I've read that it's "freer" than the
"juridicial" Catholic Church, yet I've seen more legalism and enforced
"Orthodox" opinion here than in the Catholic Church, an irony).
, and that's why I killfiled you for a long time. Now I have modified
> killfiling to include anyone who posts in an interesting thread.
If you killfile what I write, then, again, how do you know what I say?
> > I
> > just don't agree with the more rabid elements, those who reject the
> > world and hug their icons, refusing to let anyone else see them.
> > By the way, I saw an article in the Manchester Guardian about the
new
> > Moscow Cathedral. It had a picture in it of the Patriarch and a
patron
> > pointing to a huge icon of the Christ-Child. Unfortunately, the icon
> > was,to say the least, very bad. Have you ever heard of Charles
Keane?
> > He became a millionaire in the 70's with his paintings of children
with
> > huge, huge, eyes. The icon of the Christ-Child had huge "Keane"
eyes.
> > Terrible.
>
> Iconography is not intended as realistic painting. Bulgarians have
wooden panel
> icons in one traditional style in which the pupils of the eyes are
drilled
> holes. You might find that ugly or not. Iconography is not intended
to be
> corporeally, romantically beautiful, only spiritually beautiful. i
have seen
> folk icons with large eyes, and certain famous RUssian ones are like
this, that
> I find quite beautiful. But, here you are again, bashing something
Orthodox.
No, I'm not bashing something Orthodox. I'm bashing bad art. You should
read the article. It quotes a number of Orthodox who will not enter the
Cathedral because it does not have a true Orthodox "feel" to it-its art
is shabby and not truly iconic. Get a copy if you can or go to the
library and read it. Just because it's "religious" doesn't mean it good
art.
> I notice that you failed to answer my question. OK, I will
rephrase. When, if
> ever, were you chrismated Orthodox and why did you leave ROman
Cathlicism IF YOU
> LEFT.
I was chrismated in 1982. I answered that question a long, long time
ago.
Now, when were you baptized?
> Galina
Cushingura
Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8263bh$ckg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > http://www.wtotc.org
>
> Typo:
>
> Sal's future church home is actually at:
>
> http://www.wcotc.org
Third time's a charm!
(It's a dotcom! I'm really killing the comedic effect here. Sorry)
Derek
evagr...@my-deja.com
You belittle Roman Catholicism, sir, and therefore you belittle MY
past, and therefore me. I don't belittle YOUR past, but just say what
it is. If you are uncomfortable, too bad.
> > I don't need to argue about the "one, true Church" because that
> > argument leads nowhere.
>
> Really? The Orthodox Church, Mr. Vasquez, IS the One, true Church. If
you find
> that triumphalistic, it is because of YOUR background. The fact that
you choke
> on it demonstrates you still, with all your pseudo learning, do NOT
fully
> understand that of which the One Church is comprised.
No, it just means that I've heard it all before, with the same tiresome
results. You're still evangelical in your attitude so.....it's habit
with you.
> > It reflects the same attitude that Catholics
> > had in the fifties, known as triumphalism and it reflects an
> > evangelical "mindset", (perhaps its source of origin).
>
> No. It doesn't. This is a rather infantile generalization used by
someone who
> has never fully given up Romanism nor fully entered into the true
Church.
You see. You again insult, calling Roman Catholicism Romanism. I'm
sorry but that attitude, said the way you say it, is triumphalist. It's
infantile to be triumphalist, since it betrays insecurity.
> > I would rather argue that all sides need to abandon stubborness,
hatred
> > and pride, and have honest dialogue, not polemic.
>
> No. You would rather demonstrate what you believe to be your
scholastic
> knowledge. Funny. The only person you are hoodwinking is YOURSELF.
The true
> theological scholars on this newsgroup have never been taken in by
you. Your
> time here among us has been nothing BUT polemic, rancor, hatred,
stubborness and
> PRIDE.
I see that you again can't say anything witout copying someone, in this
cae, myself. I've had discussions of a scholarly nature with a few
people here, but since you "killfile" me, how do you know?
>
> > You seem to have a psychological inability to do that because you
need
> > to convince yourself, over and over again, that you made the right
> > "choice".
>
> Wrong. You are once again assuming and you know that a person who
assumes is an
> ass. I do NOT need to convince myself of anything. It is YOU,
however, who have
> never truly left Romanism and now must find ways to convince yourself
that
> Orthodoxy is but another expression of Romanism.
You are wrong. Again you insult, using pejoratives. I never said that
the two are the same. I've always said that they are developments of
diffeent traditions. That's quite different from what you say.
> > I don't have that need. Orthodoxy chose me, not vice-versa. I was
> > always Orthodox, just as most Catholics are,
>
> You have NEVER been Orthodox. Orthodoxy never chose you. The Holy
Spirit draws
> whom He will. Saying that most Catholics are...blah blah blah...is
nothing more
> than an unsupported generalization. You love generalizations, don't
you Mr.
> Vasquez. It puts everyone in neat little packages and gives order to
your rather
> pathetic little world. It makes you believe you understand each and
everyone and
> furthers your erroneous belief that you are better and more
knowledgeable than
> the rest of us. Has it ever occurred to you how many persons on this
newsgroup
> with whom you have problems? Have you ever noticed how you cannot let
a single
> post regarding yourself to pass by...but MUST have the last word?
That is
> because you are a pompous little man who believes that the world
revolves around
> himself alone.
Gee, that's quite a generalization, Mr. Wayne. Now, your web-site has a
section called Wayne's world. Does it revolve around you?
As far as "having the last word",it's because I wanmt to answer any and
all accusations.
> > You come from a different world, a different spiritual world. It's
not
> > mine.
>
> Right. I do NOT come from your world, Vasquez. I come from a world in
which I
> loved the Lord more than myself. You have demonstrated that you
believe YOU ARE
> GOD.
Please prove this. How can you be so sure? Isn't it you, right now,
abrogating the judgement of God to yourself?
It seems to me that if Christ Himself posted a piece on this
newsgroup, you
> would call Him to task for it if it in anyway diverged from your own
> single-minded grasp of theology.
Probably He would be castigated by the whole NG, including myself.
After all, isn't that what happened to Him in Jerusalem? Do you think
we'd act any better than the apostles, who saw Him face-to-face?
Pathetic.
Yep. Pathetic that your response is so angry.
>
> > I also acknowledge that I am biased against evangelicals.....because
> > they're anti-Catholic.
>
> Heh heh. Now we have an admission here. But really, we all knew this
to be true
> anyway. We know you are a bigotted little man and also one who loves
to make
> sweeping generalizations. You're so predictable you are rather
laughable.
No. It's you that's predictable. It's a fact that a lot of anti-
Catholicism in the U.S. comes from evangelicals, who know very little
of Catholicism and even less of Orthodoxy. Your relatives acted in
typical evangelical style. You do too, when your anti-Catholicism comes
out.
> >
> > You will never be fully Orthodox until you cease being
> > anti-Catholic...which doesn't mean becoming Catholic, just not
hating
> > or belittling them but respecting their faith.
>
> First off, I am Orthodox. It is YOU who are NOT Orthodox. Furthermore
you have
> no right to say I hate or belittle Roman Catholics. In fact, while
you may
> "think" after reading my short Bumpy Road to Orthodoxy, that you know
me...you
> do not. You have no idea what my association with the Roman Church
has been nor
> who in my own family happen to be Roman Catholic. Once again, as
Marina has
> pointed out countless times, you do have considerable reading
comprehension
> difficulties.
Then, if you do not....why say the things you do? I do notice that you
quote Merton. Why? Don't you know that he would be intensely disliked
by you if you heard him. Have you read anything by him except The
sSeven Story Mountain?
> >
> > You will never be fully Orthodox until you see all human beings as
> > icons of Christ. If you do.....then you don't need to belittle or
> > insult them, do you?
>
> But of course your own sarcastic posts towards me and so many others
on this
> newsgroup (after all, it was you who said you only hung around here
for the sake
> of entertainment thus the fact that you take exception to so many
speaks to the
> lie of that assertion)...the admission of your hatred towards
> evangelicals...THIS qualifies you as Orthodox? Hahahaha..you are
truly pathetic.
I wrote I was "biased" against evangelicals, not that I hated them.
Improve your reading comprehension yourself. I've never written
anything hateful against evangelicals, unlike you concerning Roman
Catholics.
> Judas, while made in the image and likeness of God, was a traitor,
pure and
> simple. Those who put their hand to the plow and turn back are not
FIT for the
> Kingdom. If you continue to claim to be what you consistently
demonstrate
> yourself not to be (an Orthodox Christian), you are such a person.
Frankly, I
> feel a real sense of pity for you, Vasquez. You are and likely will
remain, a
> prisoner of your own ego. Until you are knocked off that high horse
of yours and
> admit that others may in fact know more than yourself, you will
remain lost and
> "kicking against the pricks" as it were.
I presume that the same goes for you, Mr Wayne Andres(?) Douglas(?)
>
> Now, I have wasted far too much time and effort with you, Vasquez. Go
back to
> your little world of Vasquez and company vs all others. Climb back
atop your
> soapbox and demonstrate to all who will give you the time, how truly
Christian
> you are...how wonderfully knowledgeable you are...how meek and mild
you are.
Yes, and you go back to your little web-site with pictures of yourself
and your "special" journey.
evagr...@my-deja.com
Please explain your logic. Are you arguing that each "race" or each
"nationality" have its own church and keep strictly to themselves? A
sort of global apartheid?
Hmmmm. Interesting. How do you propose to do this?
How does it square with Pentecost? How does it square with the
Jerusalem Council with Peter and Paul?
In article <19991202001828...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >> This is Ukrainian church.
> >
> >No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
> >jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
>
> No. The Ukrainian Church is for Ukrainians.
>
> If you see "Bulgarian Orthodox Church", do you expect to find a
Chinese priest
> and an Albanian parish there?!
>
> >Open your Bible to Matthew 28:19.
> >
> >
>
> And?
>
> >> So imagine - these people are stupid or foolish - what will
happen to
> >> their children?
> >
> >They'll be baptized Orthodox Christians. What is it to you?
> >
> >
>
> Its not just "to me". The Church should not sponsor and conduct non-
canonical
> ceremonies.
>
> >That's because they'd rather not excommunicate you for phyletism
unless
> >their forced to.
>
> Don't worry, Mr. Copold. I am not the one up for excommunication
here.
>
> >Keep it up though, and you'll get it.
> >
> >
>
> Isn't the real reason you are so enraged and call for
"excommunication" because
> you, sir, are yourself in a situation where your baptism is invalid
due to the
> same reasons?:) Or am I wrong, Mr. Copold?:) Isn't the same true
about most of
> those who attacked me, like Mr. Nichols and Ms. Rachel Kenoyer?:)) -:)
>
>
evagr...@my-deja.com
What blasphemy? Don't tell me Yeshua, Jesus, was not a mendicant. I
suppose he was wealthy?
Please tell us the blasphemy.
In article <19991202000629...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
>
> >You know what's even worse, Sal?
> >
> >
> >There's some mendicant rabble-rouser named Yshua who's
>
> This is a particularly ugly example of blasphemy. (even though I
doubt you
> intended it to be that way). It has a Protestant stench though.
>
>
Marina Robb
Sal0009 wrote in message <19991202000141...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
>
>
>
>>Now you say both parents were baptised and the "Jewish" mother was
baptised
>>as
>>a child? Or is it the daughter was baptised as a child?
>
>
>Both parents are baptised. Her father i Ukrainian and was probably
baptised as
>a child. Her mother os of jewish descent and probably was baptised as a
>convert. The daughter was baptised as a child. However, these baptisms
are
>obviously invalid.
Why obviously? Jews can be baptised, read a little history, all the members
of the Early Church were Jewish. Better, read the book of Acts.
Marina
Marina Robb
Sal0009 wrote in message <19991202001828...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>> This is Ukrainian church.
>>
>>No. It's an Orthodox church. It may be under the Ukrainian
>>jurisdiction, but it's Orthodox first and foremost.
>
>No. The Ukrainian Church is for Ukrainians.
>
to let the Jerusalem Patriarch know, oh dear, but they're Greek like me.
One's former religion or even ethnicity is of no consequence, onece you're
baptised you're baptised.
Ukrainian Church -- aren't there about ten different versions and none
recognised by the rest of Orthodoxy with people like this - no wonder.
Marina
Marina
T254
of the Early Church were Jewish. Better, read the book of Acts.
Marina>>
A person like this isn't interested in reading the book of acts or any other
books of the Bible. To them its more important to read re-writen books on
Ukrainian History and Mein Kampf.
>>
robert G Tallick
T254
If you see "Bulgarian Orthodox Church", do you expect to find a Chinese priest
and an Albanian parish there?! >>
This person is a perfect example of what an Orthodox Catholic should not be.
He or she sees the Church as nothing more than the local 'Ukrainian social and
cultural center'. I certainly hope that he/she is the exception in the
parish. If not, then the whole future of the parish is doomed (which, under
such circumstances is as it should be).
robert G Tallick
Atsaves
poor people alone. Your hatred of that poor woman because she may be 1/4
Jewish is a disease you better seek treatment for. And by the way, being Jewish
means not being part of a race, but being part of a religion. So the 1/4
Jewish blood argument you are making and flipping out over reveals how ignorant
you actually are.
I know you don't like the answers your Bishop has given you, but your racist
anti-semetic rantings really have no place in the Church.
Unless you subscribe to the "White Man's Bible."
Leave those poor people alone and get yourself some help before you do
something really stupid!
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Filthy ceremonies in church
From: sal...@aol.com (Sal0009)
Date: Thu, 02 December 1999 12:01 AM EST
Message-id: <19991202000141...@ng-fx1.aol.com>
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
>Now you say both parents were baptised and the "Jewish" mother was baptised
>as
>a child? Or is it the daughter was baptised as a child?
Both parents are baptised. Her father i Ukrainian and was probably baptised as
a child. Her mother os of jewish descent and probably was baptised as a
convert. The daughter was baptised as a child. However, these baptisms are
obviously invalid.
>Jews should be banned from baptism?
Bryan J. Maloney
<crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> What's more, I hear He's got a gang of about 12, and even His mother is
> in on the conspiracy!
Have you also heard that this aforementioned mother seems to exercise a
most un-Fundamentalist level of authority in daily affairs of these
people, even though she isn't ordained to any great office!?
The very idea, exercising leadership without ordination!?
--
Whatever the reasons, which are no doubt complex, the
American public seem to believe that science is socially
and economically valuable, whereas the majority of the
British public seem to believe that scientists only take a
break from torturing animals to plot ever more devious ways
of undermining the great British way of life.
-----Dr. Jordan Raff
sp...@erols.com
that that is what we Orthodox use and go by in our daily worship. We pray
for each other by our first names. We address priests by their Christian
names, appemded with Father or Otec or Pop in whatever language.
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Ms. Galina,
>
> If you killfile me all the time, then how do you know that I don't post
> regarding Orthodoxy?
I just said i modified killfiling to exclude specific threads.
>
>
> I consider killfiling to be a peculiar practice. It means that the
> killfiler only wants to read what is comfortable; one might as well be
> writing to oneself. It's a very interesting form of solipsism. "A small
> circle of friends", in public, shutting out all others, smugly Orthodox
> yet afraid to tolerate criticism or deep questions. It's a cowardly
> route.
> It's the equivalent of the steward burying his talent.
No, it is indicative of not spending too long on a given newsgroup and/or
not answering to trolls.
>
> > Almost all your posts are on Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy
>
> How do you know if you killfile me all the time?
You have a point but, that's what you were writing before, that's what you
are writing now. WHat you wrote in the interim might have gone through an
evolution into Orthodoxy and a devolution back to Roman Catholic
apologetics, but I kind of doubt it.
>
>
> >
> > > I've never said anything
> > > that was contrary to the official position of the Orthodox Church.
> >
> > You have
>
> Where? I'm discussing the official position of the Orthodox Church,
You sometimes start your posts with what you think Orthodox Church believes
but it is often your opinion or slant.
> not
> your or other's particular version of it. After all, there is supposed
> to be freedom in Orthodoxy,( I've read that it's "freer" than the
> "juridicial" Catholic Church, yet I've seen more legalism and enforced
> "Orthodox" opinion here than in the Catholic Church, an irony).
>
> , and that's why I killfiled you for a long time. Now I have modified
> > killfiling to include anyone who posts in an interesting thread.
>
> If you killfile what I write, then, again, how do you know what I say?
read above
>
>
> >
> > Iconography is not intended as realistic painting. Bulgarians have
> wooden panel
> > icons in one traditional style in which the pupils of the eyes are
> drilled
> > holes. You might find that ugly or not. Iconography is not intended
> to be
> > corporeally, romantically beautiful, only spiritually beautiful. i
> have seen
> > folk icons with large eyes, and certain famous RUssian ones are like
> this, that
> > I find quite beautiful. But, here you are again, bashing something
> Orthodox.
>
> No, I'm not bashing something Orthodox. I'm bashing bad art.
It is iconography and obviously not iconography you understand.
> You should
> read the article. It quotes a number of Orthodox who will not enter the
> Cathedral because it does not have a true Orthodox "feel" to it-its art
> is shabby and not truly iconic. Get a copy if you can or go to the
> library and read it. Just because it's "religious" doesn't mean it good
> art.
I know the difference
>
>
> > I notice that you failed to answer my question. OK, I will
> rephrase. When, if
> > ever, were you chrismated Orthodox and why did you leave ROman
> Cathlicism IF YOU
> > LEFT.
>
> I was chrismated in 1982. I answered that question a long, long time
> ago.
Now, the second half of the question.. Why , if you ever did, did you leave
ROman Catholicism
>
>
> Now, when were you baptized?
As a child. I wrote a long post about it on this very newsgroup
>
>
> > Galina
Bryan J. Maloney
(Sal0009) wrote:
> a child. Her mother os of jewish descent and probably was baptised as a
> convert. The daughter was baptised as a child. However, these baptisms are
> obviously invalid.
How are the obviously invalid? Please cite Scripture or Canon, if
possible--if not that, at least cite an appropriate writing of the
Fathers.
>
> >Jews should be banned from baptism?
>
> No conversions to be allowed for damned people.
"There is no Greek, no Jew, in Christ Jesus".
> That may be your opinion, but it is not the opinion of the Church.
It is the opinion of the Church of Christ, perhaps not of the Church of
Satan, though.
sp...@erols.com
Olena wrote:
> > Actually, at the Bulgarian church in Hollywood, California, the reader is the
> > husband of an Albanian Orthodox who attends there and he is an American. Number of
> > nationalities there, as is proper in every Orthodox church. It is far more
> > important to be orthodox than to belong to some ethnic social club
> >
>
> I agree, we even had a few of Irish decent in our church.
There are Scots and Irish both in one local Bulgarian church
Bryan J. Maloney
Sal, who is your Bishop?
evagrius
In article <19991202000141...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> >Now you say both parents were baptised and the "Jewish" mother
> was baptised
> >as
> >a child? Or is it the daughter was baptised as a child?
> Both parents are baptised. Her father i Ukrainian and was
> probably baptised as
> a child. Her mother os of jewish descent and probably was
> baptised as a
> convert. The daughter was baptised as a child. However, these
> baptisms are
> obviously invalid.
> >Jews should be banned from baptism?
> No conversions to be allowed for damned people.
Damned people? Please elucidate. Do you mean that ALL Jews are damned?
By whom or who? Did Our Lord damn them? How do you know? A private
revelation? Where's your Scripture for it? And......were the first
Christians then damned since they were Jewish?
> >I love ignorance.
> I don't.
> > Leave this couple alone.
> When they will divorce and leave the parish (the bride and her
> family, at
> least), nobody will bother them.
> You are the one with the problem
> >here, not them.
> That may be your opinion, but it is not the opinion of the Church.
> > They can be happily married in the Church.
> No. If they wish to engage in illegal behavior, they can go
> somewhere else.
> They should not disrupt traditional church institutions.
> > Make them feel
> >welcome and if you can't at least leave them alone.
> See above.
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The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Olena
> "nationality" have its own church and keep strictly to themselves? A
> sort of global apartheid?
> Hmmmm. Interesting. How do you propose to do this?
> How does it square with Pentecost? How does it square with the
> Jerusalem Council with Peter and Paul?
>
I agree -- I wonder if Sal knows that Archbishop Antony had let our
Archimandrite serve in a Ukrainian Orthodox Church for over 14 years?
And now he heads the youth ministry? And to think, Father is 100% GREEK!
(:::gasp:::)
Anthony J. Bryant
> In article <19991202000141...@ng-fx1.aol.com>, sal...@aol.com
> (Sal0009) wrote:
>
> > a child. Her mother os of jewish descent and probably was baptised as a
> > convert. The daughter was baptised as a child. However, these baptisms are
> > obviously invalid.
>
> How are the obviously invalid? Please cite Scripture or Canon, if
> possible--if not that, at least cite an appropriate writing of the
> Fathers.
Maybe they were baptized by Mormons....
Tony
Who can't believe there are idiots like that out there.
evagrius
In article <3846D0E...@erols.com>, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> And your first name is? The reason why I suggest at least a first
> name is
> that that is what we Orthodox use and go by in our daily worship.
> We pray
> for each other by our first names. We address priests by their
> Christian
> names, appemded with Father or Otec or Pop in whatever language.
I prefer not to. My choice.
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Ms. Galina,
> >
> > If you killfile me all the time, then how do you know that I
> don't post
> > regarding Orthodoxy?
> I just said i modified killfiling to exclude specific threads.
> >
> >
> > I consider killfiling to be a peculiar practice. It means that
> the
> > killfiler only wants to read what is comfortable; one might as
> well be
> > writing to oneself. It's a very interesting form of solipsism.
> "A small
> > circle of friends", in public, shutting out all others, smugly
> Orthodox
> > yet afraid to tolerate criticism or deep questions. It's a
> cowardly
> > route.
> > It's the equivalent of the steward burying his talent.
> No, it is indicative of not spending too long on a given newsgroup
> and/or
> not answering to trolls.
No, it is not wanting to be open to the world. One does not have to
respond to trolls. Nor does one have to read every post.
> >
> > > Almost all your posts are on Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy
> >
> > How do you know if you killfile me all the time?
> You have a point but, that's what you were writing before, that's
> what you
> are writing now.
How? What I am writing now is because there have been ignorant,
unwarranted attacks on Roman Catholicism, by individuals ignorant of
its actual theology and practice.
WHat you wrote in the interim might have gone
> through an
> evolution into Orthodoxy and a devolution back to Roman Catholic
> apologetics, but I kind of doubt it.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm also not sure about what is
mean by "apologist", ( I've noticed that there's a copycat syndrome
here....one uses a term or insult and,sudenly, others do to...it
reveals a serious lack of creative thinking...and a "gang"
mentality...it's quite fascinating to see).
Please define the term as you use it.
> > > > I've never said anything
> > > > that was contrary to the official position of the Orthodox
> Church.
> > >
> > > You have
> >
> > Where? I'm discussing the official position of the Orthodox
> Church,
> You sometimes start your posts with what you think Orthodox Church
> believes
> but it is often your opinion or slant.
Please explain this; after all, I've never seen anyone give me
references or texts that will correct what is supoosed to be my
misunderstanding, just another person's opinion that I am incorrect.
I've rarely noticed anyone say that I am, ( through that fashion), more
often, it's through Evanian or Waynian insults).
That's a long answer. In a nutshell? Because it has, within the
Liturgy, preserved a unity of theology, prayer contemplation and
practice that was broken up in Roman Catholicism during the last 400
years or so. Roman Catholicism suffered, first theloss of monastic
influence, second, the separation of theology from contemplation,
third, the development of a "rational" theology separate from
prayer,particularly after the great scholastics died,( the rationalists
were essentially "pea-brains") fourth, the development of a legalism,
often in extreme forms-see Jansenism, for example, and its horrific
influence on the Irish Catholic, fifth, the development of a
monarchical, authoritarian Papacy, in contradiction to its earlier
history, sixth, the overuse of this Papacy in extending or maintaining
Roman Catholic influence.
All of these influences were recognized by Catholic scholars beginning
in this century. The modernist movement. quashed by the Vatican,
attempted to deal with them. Fortunately, there were excellent
scholars, De Lubac, Congar, Hausheer, von Balthasar and a host of
others who researched early Church history, rehabilitated Patristics,
and developed liturgical theology by renewing interest in it.
Vatican II was initiated by a Pope who has served in Turkey. Probably
exposed to Orthodoxy, no?
He rehabilitated the above mentioned, for many of them had been
silenced by the Vatican, even banned.
Their continuous scholarly activity was really quite courageous.
I read thei works while studying theology and through them also read
Orthodox writers, Lossky, Meyendorff, etc;
I became Orthodox arounfd the time I married my wife, who is Ukrainian
Orthodox.
I decided to become Orthodox because the Liturgy made more sense as a
unity of theology, prayer and rite. ( That doesn't mean I dislike the
Catholic one-but I think that there needs to be an Orthodox influence
to give it the right depth). I am attracted to hesychasm because it
accorded well with how I felt about prayer, ( I'm uncomfortable with
more emotive prayer, dislike using imagery-not too good with it- and
liked the notion of stillness-( I had practiced zazen and so knew very
well about trying to get there).
There.....for now.....enuff said???
> >
> >
> > Now, when were you baptized?
> As a child. I wrote a long post about it on this very newsgroup
> >
> >
> > > Galina
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
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Bryce Bills
Alexander Arnakis <Arn...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:F9FFOBjyH91zV1...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 05:12:51 -0800, Lin & Wayne <lsh...@pacifier.com>
> wrote:
>
> >You, SIR, are a racist and furthermore you are most certainly NOT
> >Orthodox. For the past several months we have witnessed ugly posts such
> >as yours, no doubt inspired by the Evil One. It is YOU who should remain
> >silent and learn from the Christians on this newsgroup. You have invaded
> >our home, burst in unvited and yet you have the unmitigated gall to tell
> >a long-standing member here to remain silent? Please, take your bigotry
> >elsewhere...none of us are buying the sin you are trying to sell.
>
> I agree completely. The man is a raving anti-Semite as well as a
> lunatic. According to him, one cannot be a Christian if one is even
> 1/4 Jewish, and this "taint of blood" continues through all future
> generations! Not even the Nazis went that far.
I couldn't agree more. After all, our Lord Christ was from 100% jewish
descent.
Steve Nichols
>sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
>> >Jews should be banned from baptism?
>> No conversions to be allowed for damned people.
>
>Damned people? Please elucidate. Do you mean that ALL Jews are damned?
As I understand it, we Jews, even those of us who have been baptized and
chrismated Orthodox, and even those who lead unusually pious lives, are
predestined to be beyond salvation. This is the gospel according to
that well respected father of the southeastern reformation, Johann
Calvinstein.
Gads, I've been reading this newsgroup too much!!!!!!!!!
Alexander Arnakis
<crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Tell me, Sal. Do you sing yourself to sleep at night with
>the Host Wessel Lied?
>
The Horst Wessel Song actually has a rather catchy tune, that one
doesn't hear much anymore.
Someone in Germany has posted parodic lyrics on the Web, that make the
Horst Wessel Lied seem like a hymn to toleration and multiculturalism!
Elsewhere on the Web, a musicologist has posted a juxtaposition of
Horst Wessel with the hymn tune "What a Friend We Have in Jesus,"
that shows that the two songs are basically the same melody, with a
few notes transposed!
Alexander Arnakis
>No. The Ukrainian Church is for Ukrainians.
>
Tell me, what do the Ukrainians in the Ukraine do about the Jews in
their midst? Aren't they also considered Ukrainians? Or is there a
religious test for citizenship?
If Jews in the Ukraine wished to convert to Orthodoxy, would they be
rejected?
Alexander Arnakis
>He or she sees the Church as nothing more than the local 'Ukrainian social and
>cultural center'.
Actually, he goes further than that and contends that the *religious*
functions of the church should be denied to non-Ukrainian Orthodox.
I wonder how he would feel if, say, a Greek Orthodox wished to marry
one of the Ukrainian Orthodox members of his parish?
There is nothing wrong with a parish being the center of a given
ethnic social and cultural life, as long as it doesn't exclude any
believers from its religious functions.
evagr...@my-deja.com
Johann Calvinstein? Is he related to the jeans maker? Isn't that guy huh
Jewish?
In article <3846ff5b...@pacnews.pacific.net>,
Sal0009
>You think you got problems? My father's Jewish, my mother's Scottish,
>Swedish, Irish and English and my girlfriend is Palestinian. I already
>feel for my kids!! :)
I feel for them too :(
BTW, isn't having girlfriends (Muslim ones?:) non-canonical? High time to
excommunicate you, pal-:)
>> What will my grandchildren
>> be???
>
>I think the term American usually covers this quite nicely. ;)
Thats correct. American they will be. Orthodox they won't be.
Sal0009
>On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 05:12:51 -0800, Lin & Wayne <lsh...@pacifier.com>
>wrote:
>
>>You, SIR, are a racist and furthermore you are most certainly NOT
>>Orthodox. For the past several months we have witnessed ugly posts such
>>as yours, no doubt inspired by the Evil One. It is YOU who should remain
>>silent and learn from the Christians on this newsgroup. You have invaded
>>our home, burst in unvited and yet you have the unmitigated gall to tell
>>a long-standing member here to remain silent? Please, take your bigotry
>>elsewhere...none of us are buying the sin you are trying to sell.
>
>I agree completely.
<clap> <clap>
> The man is a raving anti-Semite as well as a
>lunatic.
According to you, a "lunatic" is someone who disagrees with you. Interesting
concept...but not original. It was introduced in the USSR to imprison
dissenters in mental institutions claiming they were "mad". The diagnosis was
"steady-progressive schizophrenia". The inventor of this school of "criminal
psychiatry" was none other than KGB colonel Dr. Daniel Luntz. Now take a guess
what ethno-religious group he belonged to?:))
Sal0009
>In article <Jf214.12556$M%.101106@news.rdc1.wa.home.com>,
> "Rachael" <ken...@home.nospamcom> wrote:
>>
>> Sal0009 wrote :
>>
>> > Yes, her father is Ukrainian. Her mother is of jewish descent, I
>know
>> this for
>> > a fact. Both her parents are baptised and apparently she was
>baptised as
>> a
>> > child. This sort of baptism should be banned, they should not be
>allowed
>> to
>> > receive baptism.
>>
>> If her parents are baptised, then they are Christians. If the
>bride was
>> baptised, she is a Christian as well. I don't understand the problem,
>> unless we're talking about good, old-fashioned anti-Semitism. THAT,
>> in itself, is a pretty bad problem! <smile>
>
>There's nothing old fashioned about it. What our strange little
>friend is ascribing to is a variant of neo-paganism.
>
No.
>Pretty soon he'll be trying to tell us that Jesus was actually an Aryan.
Do not put words into my mouth. I most certainly do not subscribe to these
Chamberlainian theories.
The argument about "Jewish" apostles actually has no merit in current
conditions. In Old Testament times, the Jews were Chosen people and carried the
Word of God. After they refused to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and killed
Him, they were damned. Christians now became the Chosen people. The modern
jews are descendants of the very pharisees who killed God. A nation of
God-killers. A metaphysical anti-Christ.
>
>They all do. :)
>
Sal0009
>
><< Why obviously? Jews can be baptised, read a little history, all the
>members
>of the Early Church were Jewish. Better, read the book of Acts.
>
>Marina>>
>
>A person like this isn't interested in reading the book of acts or any other
>books of the Bible.
No.
> To them its more important to read re-writen books on
>Ukrainian History
What are "re-written books on Ukrainian history?" I doubt you know anything
about Ukrainian (or any other, for that matter) history.
> and Mein Kampf.
>
Mein Kampf was a pretty crude propaganda shell for Hitler. It certainly had
some effect in agitating the masses in 1930's Germany...but what do I have to
do with it?:)
I doubt you ever read it. Otherwise, you would have known it is a brutish
anti-Slav tract, and consequently no clear-thinking Ukrainian would enjoy or
agree with its contents.
>
>
>
>
>
Sal0009
>> If you see "Bulgarian Orthodox Church", do you expect to find a Chinese
>priest
>> and an Albanian parish there?!
>
>Actually, at the Bulgarian church in Hollywood, California, the reader is the
>husband of an Albanian Orthodox who attends there and he is an American.
>Number of
>nationalities there, as is proper in every Orthodox church. It is far more
>important to be orthodox than to belong to some ethnic social club
>
>>
You are right in some respects. However, here we are dealing not just with
some people who due to circumstances beyond their control ended up belonging to
a parish of a different ethnic group or who do not have a church in the area,
but of the representatives of the God-killing nation.
Sal0009
>Oh IC == so its Ok if we have a Jewish Orthodox Church then!!
No, its Ok if we have a Ukrainian, Georgian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Serbian,
Greek, Ethiopean, and a multitude of other Orthodox Churches. But a "Jewish
Orthodox Church" is an oxymoron. God-killers cannot be represented within
Church.
>I'll be sure
>to let the Jerusalem Patriarch know, oh dear, but they're Greek like me.
Thats right. Unlike RC, which has a vertical administrative-territorial
structure - the Orthodox Church has a parallel autocephalic structure. Thus,
each nation has its own autonomous church structure, with diasporas of each
nation belonging to the same Church whether they live in Ukraine, U.S. or
Zimbabwe. However, there is one notable exception: the God-killing nation has
no church - so the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Greek.
>One's former religion or even ethnicity is of no consequence, onece you're
>baptised you're baptised.
Thats correct, with the exception of God-killers, the damned nation.
>
>Ukrainian Church -- aren't there about ten different versions
No.
> and none
>recognised by the rest of Orthodoxy with people like this - no wonder.
>
Your approval is hardly necessary.
>Marina
>
>
Sal0009
>Tell me, what do the Ukrainians in the Ukraine do about the Jews in
>their midst? Aren't they also considered Ukrainians? Or is there a
>religious test for citizenship?
>
>
In Eurasia, citizenship is only a legal formality. What matters is
ethno-confessional background. No, they are not considered Ukrainians, never
been, and never will be. Nor do they consider themselves to be Ukrainians.
The same is true in any given country(Americans ARE very bad at understanding
that the American concept of "citizenship" applies to US only)- A German living
in Lithuania considers himself a German, not a Lithuanian. A Jew living in
Germany considers himself a Jew, not a German. A Hungarian living in France
considers himself Hungarian, not French. Their citizenship is irrelevant.
>If Jews in the Ukraine wished to convert to Orthodoxy, would they be
>rejected?
Some priests would reject, but others would probably go ahead with the baptism.
(As you see, the same happened in our parish). Essentially, what you are
asking is like asking...if homosexuals wish to get married in church in
U.S....can they or would they be rejected? Well...you always find a few
heretics willing to do perform such blasphemous ceremonies...unfortunately:(
Sal0009
>On 02 Dec 1999 14:57:58 GMT, t2...@aol.com (T254) wrote:
>
>>He or she sees the Church as nothing more than the local 'Ukrainian social
>and
>>cultural center'.
>
>Actually, he goes further than that and contends that the *religious*
>functions of the church should be denied to non-Ukrainian Orthodox.
>
I have never contended that. A Ukrainian Orthodox belongs to Ukrainian Church,
Bulgarian - to Bulgarian Church, Greek - to Greek Church, Ethiopean - to
Ethiopean Church.
>I wonder how he would feel if, say, a Greek Orthodox wished to marry
>one of the Ukrainian Orthodox members of his parish?
There are such occurences. If this happens, then usually the couple choose
which parish they wish to attend together. If there are a few people of
different descent attending the parish, its national spirit is not affected.
But we are talking about a very different situation: a representative of the
damned nation.
>There is nothing wrong with a parish being the center of a given
>ethnic social and cultural life, as long as it doesn't exclude any
>believers from its religious functions.
Thats right.
Cushingura
sal...@aol.com (Sal0009) wrote:
> Cushingura <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >You think you got problems? My father's Jewish, my mother's
Scottish,
> >Swedish, Irish and English and my girlfriend is Palestinian. I
already
> >feel for my kids!! :)
>
> I feel for them too :(
Yeah, I'm real touched.
>
> BTW, isn't having girlfriends (Muslim ones?:) non-canonical? High
time to
> excommunicate you, pal-:)
She's Orthodox, not that that would really matter to racist like you.
> >> What will my grandchildren
> >> be???
> >
> >I think the term American usually covers this quite nicely. ;)
>
> Thats correct. American they will be. Orthodox they won't be.
Sez you, not the Church.
Derek Copold
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
Actually, I think all us Orthodox in here are in total agreement on this issue you
brought up. You are the odd one out on this issue with the racist outlook. Lose
the racism. The Jewish people i have met who have converted to Orthodoxy are
wonderful people. Should one of my sons marry a Jewish Orthodox person, I would be
glad to welcome such a woman into my family.
Galina
sp...@erols.com
evagrius wrote:
> Ms. Galina,
>
> In article <3846D0E...@erols.com>, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> > And your first name is? The reason why I suggest at least a first
> > name is
> > that that is what we Orthodox use and go by in our daily worship.
> > We pray
> > for each other by our first names. We address priests by their
> > Christian
> > names, appemded with Father or Otec or Pop in whatever language.
>
> I prefer not to. My choice.
the first name is the basics with Orthodoxy. Your name honors (usually, becuae
there are a couple priests out there fond of adding new names to the stock of
future saints names) your saint, and is how we pray for you.
>
>
> > No, it is indicative of not spending too long on a given newsgroup
> > and/or
> > not answering to trolls.
>
> One does not have to
> respond to trolls. Nor does one have to read every post.
Precisely
>
>
> > >
> > > > Almost all your posts are on Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy
> > >
> > > How do you know if you killfile me all the time?
> > You have a point but, that's what you were writing before, that's
> > what you
> > are writing now.
>
> How? What I am writing now is because there have been ignorant,
> unwarranted attacks on Roman Catholicism, by individuals ignorant of
> its actual theology and practice.
yes, that is your major focus, and your interpretations show you to have a Roman
Catholic mindset on some issues.
>
>
> WHat you wrote in the interim might have gone
> > through an
> > evolution into Orthodoxy and a devolution back to Roman Catholic
> > apologetics, but I kind of doubt it.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm also not sure about what is
> mean by "apologist", ( I've noticed that there's a copycat syndrome
> here....one uses a term or insult and,sudenly, others do to...it
> reveals a serious lack of creative thinking...and a "gang"
> mentality...it's quite fascinating to see).
> Please define the term as you use it.
Apologist as in apologetics as in Apologeia
>
>
> > You sometimes start your posts with what you think Orthodox Church
> > believes
> > but it is often your opinion or slant.
>
> Please explain this; after all, I've never seen anyone give me
> references or texts that will correct what is supoosed to be my
> misunderstanding, just another person's opinion that I am incorrect.
> I've rarely noticed anyone say that I am, ( through that fashion), more
> often, it's through Evanian or Waynian insults).
Well, I haven't read enough of the posts lately to see who is insulting you.
But there have been some in which you state something like "the Orthodox
believe" such and so on an issue.
I wonder what you mean by "rational theology". You should probably be aware
that the Philokalia both reflects an ancient Christian practice but is a
theologically transformed version of a Roman Catholic work. The work of the
before mentioned theologians is not courageous enough as it does not rid Roman
Cahtolicism of the heresies which were introduced into the western faith and
therefore keeps us Christians apart.
sp...@erols.com
know today some monks who keep silence.
Olena
to say about it (and to see if it's really true)
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
The nation was not at fault, just individuals within that nation. All people are
redeemable. We better hope so, for the sake of our own sins.
Galina
sp...@erols.com
Sal0009 wrote:
> "Marina Robb" <mari...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >Oh IC == so its Ok if we have a Jewish Orthodox Church then!!
>
> No, its Ok if we have a Ukrainian, Georgian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Serbian,
> Greek, Ethiopean, and a multitude of other Orthodox Churches. But a "Jewish
> Orthodox Church" is an oxymoron. God-killers cannot be represented within
> Church.
>
> >I'll be sure
> >to let the Jerusalem Patriarch know, oh dear, but they're Greek like me.
>
> Thats right. Unlike RC, which has a vertical administrative-territorial
> structure - the Orthodox Church has a parallel autocephalic structure. Thus,
> each nation has its own autonomous church structure, with diasporas of each
> nation belonging to the same Church whether they live in Ukraine, U.S. or
> Zimbabwe. However, there is one notable exception: the God-killing nation has
> no church - so the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Greek.
The Patriarch of Jerusalem may be Greek, but there are families in Bethlehem who
trace themselves back to the first Christians in Palestine.