Back to Tradition: 'Russian Church Unity is Only a Question of Time'
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
BACK TO THE TRADITION:
'RUSSIAN CHURCH UNITY IS ONLY A QUESTION OF TIME'
As we predicted in a number of articles last year, the movement towards
unity in the various parts of the Russian Church now seems to be
irresistible.
Today's interview (11 June 2004) with Archbishop Mark of Germany and Great
Britain in the online Russian journal, Izvestia,
(www.izvestia.ru/community/article 119891), confirms the impression that, in
the words of the Archbishop, unity between the Russian Patriarchal Church
and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR) is 'only a question
of time'.
The commissions of the two parts of the Russian Church will meet later this
month to begin the tasks of working out details. However, whatever problems
there may be in this area and however many months this process may take, it
seems that given the goodwill on both sides, these can be overcome.
As regards most members of ROCOR, the attitude seems to be that the time has
come for unity and that what was once strongly resisted can now be accepted.
The longer the process of negotiation goes on, the less beneficial it will
be. 'Get it over and done with' appears to be the attitude of many in the
grassroots Russian parishes.
According to one source from Russia, the principal remaining problem is
modernist renovationism in the parishes under the Patriarchate outside
Russia. This includes in the British Isles, where the Patriarchate is split
in two, with stavropegic traditional parishes on one side, and the mainly
modernist Sourozh Diocese on the other. Indeed, it was this Diocese which
last year actually ejected a bishop sent from Russia to sort out its
self-created problems, which date back to the 60s. Today that Diocese is
divided within itself, with many members of it wishing to leave the Russian
Church altogether and go under the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It may be
that the time has come for the Patriarchate to rein in its extremists. This
would certainly reassure ROCOR and those in the Patriarchate in Russia who
know better.
Also noticeable are the events within the two former fragments of the
Russian Church, the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) in North America and
the Paris Jurisdiction of Russians under Constantinople.
The first, formally independent of Moscow since 1970, is headed by
Metropolitan German. At present in Moscow for the Patriarch's
75th 'jubilee', he seems to spend almost as much time there as in
Washington. In some respects this Church now seems to be returning to its
traditional Russian roots, abandoning the old-fashioned modernism of the 60s
and 70s. In part it is being pushed in this direction by the large
emigration of new Russians to North America. They want to see the sort of
Church that they know in Russia, using the Orthodox calendar and respectful
of Tradition.
As regards the Paris Jurisdiction of Russians, rather like the Sourozh
Diocese of the Patriarchate in Great Britain, it too is very divided. Only
recently in Cannes, Andrei Schmemann, a senior figure and one of the
founders of the Paris movement to return to the Russian Church, received a
Russian passport from President Putin himself. Members of that movement have
strongly criticized their own leader, Archbishop Gabriel, for being under
Greek control and not taking account of the Russian Tradition. Again, as in
the case of the OCA and the Sourozh Diocese, a large new emigration from
Russia is forcing the Paris modernists back to the Tradition.
What the future will bring, we will not speculate about. However, it is
clear that the long-awaited time for the revival of the Russian Church
worldwide is at last here.
This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from
http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm
john j
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
why one small step toward Christian unity is a step backward into the Middle
Ages?
"john j" <JOH...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13356-40...@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...
nick cobb
about to embark upon a massive liturgical renewal and correction of
bad practices which had creeped into the Russian Orthodox Church.
These reforms never took place. Now, with the ROC growing strong,
their only model is the past which embraced these bad practices. ROCOR
had always preserved these bad practices. So, today, we have these
churches looking to their past for guidance when in fact they should
be looking to the future, the correct theology and practices of the
Orthodox Church and a re-examination of Orthodoxy in the world TODAY.
Take something as simple as married clergy walking around town with
long beards, pony-tails, dirty black cassocks and funny hats doing
their grocery shopping. WHY? What kind of show is this?
The days of the clergy and monastics being an elitist class in Russia
is over!
JOH...@webtv.net (john j) wrote in message news:<13356-40...@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net>...
john j
This Re-union is the business of the Russian Orthodox church. The
requirments for it are steps backwards . Thats why it seems they are
movig together backwards !
Constantine Wright
> Take something as simple as married clergy walking around town with
> long beards, pony-tails, dirty black cassocks and funny hats doing
> their grocery shopping. WHY? What kind of show is this?
A witness to the distinctiveness of the Orthodox Church, fdifferent
from the ho-hum protestantism and lukewarm RCism that people are
leaving in droves. It's a powerful missionary statement.
And besides... "dirty black cassocks???" Get real... when I've seen
Orthodox priests in public dressed as Orthodox priests and not clergy
of other religions, they've been in clean black cassocks!
Not that married clergy *always* have to wear their uniform (policemen
and firemen don't!) BUT when dresed as clergy they should never ape
the western clerical suit.
In the Joy of the Risen Lord,
Rd. Constantine
======================================================
+ Reader Constantine Wright
IC|XC http://constans_wright.tripod.com
+--+--+ Traditional Orthodox Christian
NI|KA http://www.new-ostrog.org/paper1.html
+ Member of St. Nicholas Orthodox Church of
the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in the Americas
======================================================
Polik
"nick cobb" <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:b6548fc4.04062...@posting.google.com...
> Absolutely correct! Before Communism took over in Russia, the ROC was
> about to embark upon a massive liturgical renewal and correction of
> bad practices which had creeped into the Russian Orthodox Church.
> These reforms never took place. Now, with the ROC growing strong,
> their only model is the past which embraced these bad practices. ROCOR
> had always preserved these bad practices. So, today, we have these
> churches looking to their past for guidance when in fact they should
> be looking to the future, the correct theology and practices of the
> Orthodox Church and a re-examination of Orthodoxy in the world TODAY.
> Take something as simple as married clergy walking around town with
> long beards, pony-tails, dirty black cassocks and funny hats doing
> their grocery shopping. WHY? What kind of show is this?
You have no understanding of the powerful feelings these traditions evoke.
These traditions represent a determined example of the endurance of the
faith throughout time, and thus a testament to Holy Orthodoxy. It is an
important part of the engine driving the revival of the Russian Orthodox
Church, in the FSU. As if this was not proof enough, many people are
actually becoming deeply interested in the Old Believer faith, which could
only be described as ultra-traditional.
A "modern" view of Orthodoxy would simply would garner lukewarm support, at
best. A Church that you would want in Russia and Ukraine would lead to its
swift demise.
Better the Orthodox Church with priests in black robes than no Orthodox
Church at all.
Polik.
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
> about to embark upon a massive liturgical renewal and correction of
> bad practices which had creeped into the Russian Orthodox Church.
> These reforms never took place. Now, with the ROC growing strong,
> their only model is the past which embraced these bad practices. ROCOR
> had always preserved these bad practices. So, today, we have these
> churches looking to their past for guidance when in fact they should
> be looking to the future, the correct theology and practices of the
> Orthodox Church and a re-examination of Orthodoxy in the world TODAY.
> Take something as simple as married clergy walking around town with
> long beards, pony-tails, dirty black cassocks and funny hats doing
> their grocery shopping. WHY? What kind of show is this?
***How about Bermuda shorts and Hawaiian shirts?
>
> The days of the clergy and monastics being an elitist class in Russia
> is over!
***Why would an Arab care about what goes on in russia?
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
"Constantine Wright" <constant...@angelfire.com> wrote in message
news:b763578b.04062...@posting.google.com...
> ni...@cris.com (nick cobb) wrote in message
news:<b6548fc4.04062...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Take something as simple as married clergy walking around town with
> > long beards, pony-tails, dirty black cassocks and funny hats doing
> > their grocery shopping. WHY? What kind of show is this?
>
> A witness to the distinctiveness of the Orthodox Church, fdifferent
> from the ho-hum protestantism and lukewarm RCism that people are
> leaving in droves. It's a powerful missionary statement.
>
> And besides... "dirty black cassocks???" Get real... when I've seen
> Orthodox priests in public dressed as Orthodox priests and not clergy
> of other religions, they've been in clean black cassocks!
>
> Not that married clergy *always* have to wear their uniform (policemen
> and firemen don't!) BUT when dresed as clergy they should never ape
> the western clerical suit.
>
> In the Joy of the Risen Lord,
> Rd. Constantine
***The first two ROC priests of my parish, founded shortly after the start
of the last century, are pictured with their wives and children dressed in
what appears to be black suits with collarless white shirts buttoned at the
neck (no tie).
Al
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
"Polik" <po...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:OBLBc.36$z7I...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
***I think there are too many Orthodox Christians who would have the
Orthodox Church modernize and be more protestant-like. Personally, I wish my
OCA would return to the Old Calendar across the board.
Al
nick cobb
However, a church which is archaic and cannot interface with society
today is a dead church. We aren't talking about changing the Divine
Liturgy or Folk Mass type of stuff. As prominent theologians of the
Orthodox Church have said, "Orthodoxy infiltrates a culture and
transforms it."
Old calendars are just that; old, inaccurate calendars!
Polik
"AGG" <Big A...@nopoopovspam.com> wrote in message
news:q_LBc.369764$M3.2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
To be completely honest, there are many external aspects of Protestantism
that appeal to me. I enjoy the songs of praise that the entire congregation
can join in and sing with (uusally with the words displayed on a large
screen at the fron of the church). I enjoy the Bible study classes wherein
one could discuss the interpretation of a clause or a general concept. I
prefer to stand beside my beloved wife, as a sign a unity as much as a
concession to my love for her. And sometimes, I simply need to sit. :-)
On the other hand, I desire the tradition of the old calendar, which
separates the sacred time from the profane. I need the uniformity of the
Slavonic liturgy, wherever I may be celebrating the divine service. The
tradition provides me with a sense of continuity and awe.
I see the good where it is.
Polik.
>
> Al
>
>
TheBlackKnight
john j
isolate.In An Orthodox country it might not mean much,but. In a
western country such as the USA the last thing young Orthodox want to
feel is separate from their neighbors and friends.
OCA which has dreams of being the " American Orthodox church",uniting
all Orthodoxy in America would have no chance if it adopted the policies
of ROCOR.
The murmuring that when on when the GOA primate attended President
Reagans funeral is an example . Most Americans thought it was a plus for
Orthodoxy .I can Remember Archbishop Iakovos he was the more or less
the Orthodox representative at American state occasions. Of course it
made Americans think all Orthodox were Greek. Yet you still hear
murmuring about praying with the Hetrodox.
Or the Primate of OCA saying that he had to attend interfaith
gatherings,because.As an American church it was expected !
nick cobb
"AGG" <Big A...@nopoopovspam.com> wrote in message news:<9XLBc.369762$M3.3...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
Polik
> The Triumphalism of the ROC might sound nice,but. It has a tendency to
> isolate.In An Orthodox country it might not mean much,but. In a
> western country such as the USA the last thing young Orthodox want to
> feel is separate from their neighbors and friends.
Who are you to say how young Orthodox (in particular, young Russian
Orthodox) want to feel? I suggest to you that the tradition of Russian
Orthodoxy gives them pride in their heritage.
> OCA which has dreams of being the " American Orthodox church",uniting
> all Orthodoxy in America would have no chance if it adopted the policies
> of ROCOR.
OCA has dreams of being the "American Orthodox Church, but only has empty
churches. ROCOR has no such illusions, but must content herself with
churches full of parishoners and growing. Res ipse loquitur.
Polik.
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
in the Diocese of the West.
"nick cobb" <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:ZrMBc.643$hC2...@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
nonOrthodox?
"Polik" <po...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:YsMBc.320$bGI...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Al@nopoopovspam.com AGG
Al
nick cobb
fight your buddy Bush's war!
nick cobb
nick cobb
Al
to modernize like the protestants? And why? If the True Faith has been
working for all of these years, why fix what ain't broke?
Al
nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message news:<l0MCc.1540$Gc5....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
FTT
"Al" <aggr...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:df4e6c04.0406...@posting.google.com...
> But The church is nearly 2,000 years old. Are you suggesting we need
> to modernize like the protestants? And why? If the True Faith has been
> working for all of these years, why fix what ain't broke?
>
> Al
One does not need to "modernize" the TRUTH - just one's attitude
of communicating it , Al..
Isn't there an Orthodox belief of "growing from glory unto glory" ?
It's not a 'proposition' to argue over but to "do" and to " be in the
process
of BECOMING ".
Why continue to hassle Nick?
Just desist and "do" and "become" fully" Orthodox if you really believe
in Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy as far as I can discern is also about "orthopraxy"
"right belief" = "right doing".
And wht's going on here is not good at all , Al. Your wrong doing brings all
your
"hoop la" about Orthodox belief into serious question by non-Orthodox
lurkers.
Your actions belie your beliefs. They come across as of your head and not
your
heart.
Don't reply with what about Nick...??
You are responsible for your own actions...... not anyone else's.
Peace
FTT
nick cobb
Polik
> Some bishops are "enlightened" and educated and others like living in
1800!
That is an offensive comment to those of us who are enriched by the
traditions of the Church.
Polik.
Polik
> Does your priest approve of your breaking canon law by praying with the
> nonOrthodox?
I have not been to a Protestant church for a long time except for a friend's
wedding. He asked me to say a prayer and a recitation from the Bible. In
essence, they were led by an Orthodox...me!
I think these minor exceptions do not affect my Orthodoxy as a whole. At
Christmas time, I still sing all the same old Christmas carols that I
learned in my native French as a Roman Catholic. They bring back warm
feelings and memories. Again, this does not affect my Orthodoxy. I have to
be able to realize and to judge what is fit and what is not.
As for my Orthodox church, I have clearly chosen a distinctly traditionalist
church, with all the accompanying traditions. The "modernist" churches have
no appeal, spiritual or otherwise to me. Again, I have judged what is fit
for me.
Polik.
Polik
> That's stupid!
I answered his question without resorting to the lowest common denominator.
Polik.
john j
that God told his church everything it had to know by the 7th Ecumenical
council. Catholics believe,he hasn't finished,yet..
++
FTT
>
>Isn't there an Orthodox belief of "growing from glory unto glory" ?
>
>It's not a 'proposition' to argue over but to "do" and to " be in the
>process of BECOMING ".
>
>Why continue to hassle Nick?
>
>Just desist and "do" and "become" fully" Orthodox if you really believe
>in Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy as far as I can discern is also about "orthopraxy"
>"right belief" = "right doing".
>
Ortho- right
praxis - practice, way of doing things
>
>And wht's going on here is not good at all , Al. Your wrong doing brings all
>your "hoop la" about Orthodox belief into serious question by non-Orthodox
>lurkers. Your actions belie your beliefs. They come across as of your head and not
>your heart.
>
>Don't reply with what about Nick...??
>
>You are responsible for your own actions...... not anyone else's.
>
Killfiles really keep clean inboxes and lwer tempers
>
>Peace
>FTT
Polik
> We have gone a bit afield, but It comes down to Orthodox believing
> that God told his church everything it had to know by the 7th Ecumenical
> council. Catholics believe,he hasn't finished,yet..
Mormons believe that He has not finished yet. In fact, they believe that
they have a living prophet who continues to give God's revelations.
It does not mean a thing as to the correctness of one's beliefs. Your
comment is a red herring.
Polik.
>
john j
It does, does one believe in a church that says God stoped talking in
the 11th century or befor . Or a church that in accordance with
scripture believes God still talks to his church
Polik
By your logic, then the only true Church must be the Mormon Church, because
God still talks to the Mormon Church and it is the only one with a living
prophet...except possibly for the Moonies, who have the re-incarnation of
Christ, Reverend Moon, who continues to guide the Church.
Again, your comment does not follow and leaves me with questions about what
you are proposing. What faith are you supporting in place of Orthodoxy?
Polik.