Alexanders GREEK Orthodox Church
T254
Just so those from the outside looking in can see that what Alexander (the
NON-ORTHODOX GREEK) posts in here regarding the GOA in the U.S. is not
necessarily the current mindset of all Greek Orthodox parishes, I am posting a
current reply from the Orthodox Forum. Fortunately, I have read many other
posts from converts to Orthodoxy into the GOA that say the same thing that is
being stated here to get overly upset by Alexanders posts.
Alexander seems to have a mind set that was popular 50 years ago but not
necessarily so today. How about some other Greek Orthodox backing me up on
this?
Bob
----------------------------------
Dear Bartlett, I am currently studying the catechism and hope to receive
chrismation in the Greek Orthodox Church. In my experience I have had no
ethnic/language barriers as the parish I attend has an english and greek
liturgy. The priests at my parish have been wonderful and the people
(native-born greeks and 2nd 3rd generation) have welcomed me and and made me
feel at home. I started out a United Methodist as a child. I became Roman
Catholic in college. I now believe I have found the true church of the
Apostles. Any Orthodox Church that falls under the jurisdiction of one of
the original Patriarchates is truly Orthodox from what I have learned. I
will pray for you as you search out a new Orthodox home. The important thing
is to Have Christ and no Him as crucified, resurrected, and as Lord and
Savior.
Bob Tallick
Alexander Arnakis
>
>Just so those from the outside looking in can see that what Alexander (the
>NON-ORTHODOX GREEK) posts in here regarding the GOA in the U.S. is not
>necessarily the current mindset of all Greek Orthodox parishes, I am posting a
>current reply from the Orthodox Forum. Fortunately, I have read many other
>posts from converts to Orthodoxy into the GOA that say the same thing that is
>being stated here to get overly upset by Alexanders posts.
>Alexander seems to have a mind set that was popular 50 years ago but not
>necessarily so today. How about some other Greek Orthodox backing me up on
>this?
>
>Bob
>
(usually) get a warm welcome from the cradle Orthodox. What I'm
giving, primarily, is the *Greek* viewpoint (the view from Greece and
that of those who still maintain ties with the Old Country). That view
holds, quite strongly, that Hellenism and Orthodoxy are mutually
dependent on each other for their survival in the New World. In my
experience, that's true. My Greek Protestant relatives who have
immigrated here have rather quickly been lost to Hellenism. On the
other hand, the small number of non-ethnic converts is not enough to
make a really viable Church.
vj...@biostrategist.com
As long as my folks sent me to a Greek-owned school until 8th
grade, I learned Greek without thinking about it. True, my folks had
post-secondary education in Greece hence, I learned better, and after
that, their friends and contacts often also spoke better, and I spoke
Greek at home. And yes, my folks were more demanding (my dad nicknamed
my mom "Tzartzano after the grammar textbook's author; my dad's
brother was once tutor to the future King Constantine XIII). (But,
then again, my mom would correct my English teacher's spelling, as
well!)
But when what I learned was my choice, I had no interest in
learning Greek just so I could speak to my relatives (nearly all of
whom spoke other languages) or to read Greek news (mostly rehashed
from American souces I already read).
Why then, would I continue to learn Greek? It turned out I did
so because of the faith. I wanted to read the Bible in Koine. My Art
History professor had us read the Gospel of John because it is the
basis for most Western Art, and I read it in Greek, then I started
reading the rest of the Bible (which took over a decade, a little
every Sunday). I wanted to read the 1500s Greek versions of Eusebius
I had microfilmed (the rare book collection wouldn't let me touch it
or copy it) so I could write my freshman comp paper on Constantine.
Many years later, I wrote the Greek consulate asking about
Greek dictionaries and they weren't competent or interested in
replying. So I wrote the US Embassy in Athens and they referred me to
Eleftherudaky (books.gr, and my folks were perplexed, because they
insisted they had taken me to that bookstore when I was young, but to
be honest, I didn't recall). And I got the Dimitrakos
dictionary. Why? because I was pained by what I saw as sloppy
translations on religious matters. This is important, because I
wasn't interested in GREEK, I wanted to find the TRUTH.
So, if the folks from Greece want their kids to learn anything
more than the caricature ghetto creole of Greek most of them speak, it
is better they concentrate on faith rather than language or culture.
(Of course, a great many of them will end up being embarassed to tell
their kids they didn't even finish much schooling back in Greece!)
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Fooey on GUI: [MS,X] Windows is for Bimbos]
vj...@biostrategist.com
after immigration to America. I suspect most Greeks end up Catholic and most
Russians end up Protestant. Nor does the ancestral language survive much.
Among Greeks, it has been my anecdotal experience that Greek Jews (except
Salonika Sephardics) preserve the Greek language much better than Greek
Christians of the second generation. Most Greeks of the second generation do
not know more than twenty mispronounced words of Greek. By and large most
Orthodox in America end up intermarrying and abandoning their faith. When
Greek parents make a big thing about Greek "culture", the net result is
usually Italian in-laws. I do not think you will find the GOA very active
outside of New York or the OCA very active outside of Pennsylvania.
In <auorih$3bj$1...@reader1.panix.com> by vj...@biostrategist.com
on Mon, 30 Dec 2002 07:11:13 +0000 (UTC) we perused:
*+- You're both wrong.
*+- As long as my folks sent me to a Greek-owned school until 8th
*+-grade, I learned Greek without thinking about it. True, my folks had
*+-post-secondary education in Greece hence, I learned better, and after
*+-that, their friends and contacts often also spoke better, and I spoke
*+-Greek at home. And yes, my folks were more demanding (my dad nicknamed
*+-my mom "Tzartzano after the grammar textbook's author; my dad's
*+-brother was once tutor to the future King Constantine XIII). (But,
*+-then again, my mom would correct my English teacher's spelling, as
*+-well!)
*+- But when what I learned was my choice, I had no interest in
*+-learning Greek just so I could speak to my relatives (nearly all of
*+-whom spoke other languages) or to read Greek news (mostly rehashed
*+-from American souces I already read).
*+- Why then, would I continue to learn Greek? It turned out I did
*+-so because of the faith. I wanted to read the Bible in Koine. My Art
*+-History professor had us read the Gospel of John because it is the
*+-basis for most Western Art, and I read it in Greek, then I started
*+-reading the rest of the Bible (which took over a decade, a little
*+-every Sunday). I wanted to read the 1500s Greek versions of Eusebius
*+-I had microfilmed (the rare book collection wouldn't let me touch it
*+-or copy it) so I could write my freshman comp paper on Constantine.
*+- Many years later, I wrote the Greek consulate asking about
*+-Greek dictionaries and they weren't competent or interested in
*+-replying. So I wrote the US Embassy in Athens and they referred me to
*+-Eleftherudaky (books.gr, and my folks were perplexed, because they
*+-insisted they had taken me to that bookstore when I was young, but to
*+-be honest, I didn't recall). And I got the Dimitrakos
*+-dictionary. Why? because I was pained by what I saw as sloppy
*+-translations on religious matters. This is important, because I
*+-wasn't interested in GREEK, I wanted to find the TRUTH.
*+- So, if the folks from Greece want their kids to learn anything
*+-more than the caricature ghetto creole of Greek most of them speak, it
*+-is better they concentrate on faith rather than language or culture.
*+-(Of course, a great many of them will end up being embarassed to tell
*+-their kids they didn't even finish much schooling back in Greece!)
vj...@biostrategist.com
A chap who is vice president of the biggest Manhattan GOP
clubhouse has a Greek surname. Indeed, his grandfather was my
childhood pharmacist in Astoria, and this same grandfather of his is
credited with winning back the Dodecanese in 1947 via his
writings. Italian forces sought this man's picture so they could
arrest him, and he instead mailed several photographs to Mussolini
directly! Well, this Greek hero was already wed to an American born
Corsican, and his school principal son considered himself French and
not Greek. My pharmacist's son married an Anglo-German Presbyterian
but they attended Unitarian services. My friend, the grandson (who was
brought back to the Greek island for them to marvel how he looks like
his grandfather), was however baptised Presbyterian. He attended
Presbyterian church when I met him, and now he is an Episcopalean
(Anglican). He seems set to get a mail-order bride, but plans to
insist she become "Christian" which to him means Protestant, not
Orthodox. (Good Luck, I know..)
My mom's cousin commanded the Greek NATO mission in Brussels
and also is the godfather of Crown Prince Paul. I sent him a
subscription to American Spectator. One year the renewal notices
miss-matched with one chap from Wisconsin with a non-Greek first name
but whose surname was Pappas. This chap wrote me how glad he was I was
sending a conservaive periodical to such a left wing country as Greece
(not realising who I was sending it to). After more correspondence I
realised that this chap was one quarter Greek, the rest being Polish,
and boy did he have criticism for our religion! Let's see the folks at
SAE try and enlist him as "Expatriate Hellenism"!
This is muttonhead's idea of preserving Orthodoxy?
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
> Here's two pieces of anecdotal evidence:
>
><snipped>
>
> This is muttonhead's idea of preserving Orthodoxy?
>
In each of the cases that you described, the subsequent generations
lost their Greek identity (and, incidentally, their Orthodoxy) because
their progenitors married outside the fold. Had their sense of Greek
loyalty been stronger, they would have married Greeks (or influenced
their spouses to become cultural Greeks), and so passed both their
Greekness and their Orthodoxy to the next generation. Your anecdotes
only go to prove what I've been saying!
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
> I do not think Orthodoxy survives much beyond the second generation
>after immigration to America. I suspect most Greeks end up Catholic and most
>Russians end up Protestant. Nor does the ancestral language survive much.
That's exactly my point! The ethnic identity is lost first, and then
the Orthodoxy follows. If you want to keep people Orthodox, you have
to reinforce their ethnic identity.
vj...@biostrategist.com
You've got it backwards. In America, it's ok to be segregated
by religion, but not by ethnicity or race. If you enforce culture, the
Greek kids end up marrying Italians. If you enforce religion, they end
up marrying Russians. Religion is a motivation for learning Greek, not
the other way around.
In <8d221v4ftqllrqhf0...@4ax.com> by Alexander Arnakis
<alexande...@verizon.net> on Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:09:44 GMT we perused:
*+-> I do not think Orthodoxy survives much beyond the second generation
*+->after immigration to America. I suspect most Greeks end up Catholic and most
*+->Russians end up Protestant. Nor does the ancestral language survive much.
*+-That's exactly my point! The ethnic identity is lost first, and then
*+-the Orthodoxy follows. If you want to keep people Orthodox, you have
*+-to reinforce their ethnic identity.
T254
>the Orthodoxy follows. If you want to keep people Orthodox, you have
>to reinforce their ethnic identity
What BS! What Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy is a religion, not an ethnic identity!
Bob Tallick
Cunneen
lost their Greek identity (and, incidentally, their Orthodoxy) because
their progenitors married outside the fold. >>
That's an awful denunciation of Orthodoxy! "Incidentally, their Orthodoxy" --
is that all it was for them, incidental???
That seems a more critical problem than maintaining Greek culture; if
membership in the religion isn't based on faith but only on cultural links,
then you are ALWAYS are the mercy of cultural change. What you seem to be
saying is that, in a voluntaristic country like the U.S., no one will
voluntarily become Orthodox or stay Orthodox; the other Christian faiths are
more appealing or whatever.
Hey, that's defeatism! What a crock! Orthodoxy is cool stuff, the next best
thing to Catholicism around. If Catholicism can compete in this country, then
Orthodoxy certainly can, too.
Anti-papalism is rampant among American Protestants; they just can't IMAGINE
being a papist. They may hunger for the Eucharist and wallow in the Fathers,
but they just can't swim the Tiber. Their family would disown them; they'd be
thrown out of their communities and jobs. There's a niche market for
Orthodoxy; traditional Christianity without the pope. I've even sent a few down
that road.
Can the defeatism! You've got too many treasures to pass yourselves off as
paupers.
T254
>thing to Catholicism around.
John: You were doing great until the above sentence.
Orthodoxy IS CATHOLICISM! In its most pure, original, and truest form.
Bob
Bob Tallick
Nicolas
assure you that most Greeks, in Canada at least, whether they're 2nd, 3
rd or 4th generation have preserved their language, culture and identity.
Your failed campaign to discredit Greeks from Greece or NA must stem
from a deep seated hatred towards your own kind which is despicable and
outrageous.
Take your cynicism and stuff it where the sun doesn't shine.
Nicolas
Alexander Arnakis
>
>That's an awful denunciation of Orthodoxy! "Incidentally, their Orthodoxy" --
>is that all it was for them, incidental???
>
religion. Greece today is an essentially secular country, with
adequate lip service being paid to the "prevailing" Orthodox religion.
If you study history, you know that this is the same attitude
exhibited by the ancient Greeks, who were fairly cynical about their
pagan gods, endowing them with all the human foibles.
The attitude of most Greeks (at least the ones that I know) is that
monasteries make very good substitutes for lunatic asylums!
Alexander Arnakis
> What you seem to be
>saying is that, in a voluntaristic country like the U.S., no one will
>voluntarily become Orthodox or stay Orthodox; the other Christian faiths are
>more appealing or whatever.
>
Of course some will become Orthodox, but more will leave than will
come in. Objectively speaking, other Christian faiths *are* more
appealing -- because they're more consonant with the American culture
and/or are organizationally stronger. There are also sociological
reasons why people tend to gravitate to particular denominations --
for example, Episcopalians are seen as having a higher socioeconomic
status than, say, Pentacostalists. People go to churches where they
fit in socially.
Alexander Arnakis
>There's a niche market for
>Orthodoxy; traditional Christianity without the pope.
I venture to say that most Americans love and respect the Pope. If
someone has a tendency toward traditional Christianity, the
institution of the Papacy is not the main impediment to becoming
Catholic. The main impediment for the traditionalist is the
"modernizing" trend in Catholicism since Vatican II. Why would a
traditionalist go to a church that promotes guitar Masses? *That's*
why someone would become Orthodox rather than Catholic!
Dmitri
Church, Joey.
dimo
Dmitri Mosier
Iowa City, Iowa
Dana Netherton
alexande...@verizon.net (Alexander Arnakis) said ...
> On 31 Dec 2002 07:55:53 GMT, cun...@aol.com (Cunneen) wrote:
> >
> >That's an awful denunciation of Orthodoxy! "Incidentally, their Orthodoxy" --
> >is that all it was for them, incidental???
> >
> In a word, yes. Very few Greeks are serious about religion -- any
> religion. Greece today is an essentially secular country, with
> adequate lip service being paid to the "prevailing" Orthodox religion.
> If you study history, you know that this is the same attitude
> exhibited by the ancient Greeks, who were fairly cynical about their
> pagan gods, endowing them with all the human foibles.
It's also the same attitude exhibited by most Western
Europeans -- Britain, France, Italy, Germany, and so forth.
In Britain, it seems to be a phenomenon of the 20th century
-- post WW I -- but I don't know of any solid studies that
clinch that notion.
> The attitude of most Greeks (at least the ones that I know) is that
> monasteries make very good substitutes for lunatic asylums!
"God looks after lunatics and small children ..."
--
(Mr) Dana Netherton
Juno address is a spam dump. To reach me, e-mail:
dana 1 netherton 2 net, where "1" = at, and "2" = dot
--------
I don't belong to an organized religion.
I'm Eastern Orthodox.
Dana Netherton
>
> Just so those from the outside looking in can see that what Alexander (the
> NON-ORTHODOX GREEK) posts in here regarding the GOA in the U.S. is not
> necessarily the current mindset of all Greek Orthodox parishes, I am posting a
> current reply from the Orthodox Forum. Fortunately, I have read many other
> posts from converts to Orthodoxy into the GOA that say the same thing that is
> being stated here to get overly upset by Alexanders posts.
> Alexander seems to have a mind set that was popular 50 years ago but not
> necessarily so today. How about some other Greek Orthodox backing me up on
> this?
>
> Bob
Bob,
I think that Alexander and vip2 are discussing the future of
the Greek-American subculture per se, not the future of
Greek Orthodoxy in the US per se.
Because the two are intertwined today, they necessarily
include Greek Orthodoxy in their discussion. But ISTM
they're not focusing on whether potential converts would be
welcomed in GOA parishes.
As for me -- as I said in another post, I was made welcome.
I have also corresponded with a person (in a different part
of the US) who was rebuffed -- because his wife and children
were not coming to Orthodoxy with him.
To inquirers who are thinking about approaching a parish, I
would recommend this:
Don't rule out any particular parish, until you can get a
"reality check" from someone who might know about it.
Approach an Orthodox Christian whom you think you can rely
upon, and ask them for a recommendation about the parishes
in your area. (Or region, in some places.) Then act on it.
I recommend this because it's what I did. Thanks to the
recommendations I got, I decided that *in my area* my best
choice was to bypass the local OCA and ROCOR parishes (we
have no Antiochian parishes here) and approach one of the
two GOA parishes here. For a bunch of reasons that I
wouldn't have understood at the time, I'm very glad now that
I did.
Dushevno
>From: t2...@aol.com (T254)
>Date: 12/31/2002 9:25 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20021231092507...@mb-fx.aol.com>
A.L.
Dushevno
>religion. Greece today is an essentially secular country, with
>adequate lip service being paid to the "prevailing" Orthodox religion.
Sounds a lot like Italy ... A.L.
vj...@biostrategist.com
<n...@nbnet.nb.ca> on Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:43:12 GMT we perused:
*+-I truely have no idea which planet from the sun you call home, but I
*+-assure you that most Greeks, in Canada at least, whether they're 2nd, 3
*+-rd or 4th generation have preserved their language, culture and identity.
I was unaware that you bouzouki types are able to survive
outside of the undegroud rodent caverns where you engage in your
neopagan drunken whoring, but the numbers for what happens outside
your limited sampling ability are quite clear, and they follow:
-[1]-
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question17.html
The longer answer:According to a recent study of Orthodoxy in the
United States, the real membership (number of adult adherents and
their children) in all Eastern Christian Churches in the USA can be
estimated at about 1,200,000 persons.This figure is considerably
less than the commonly accepted estimations, which range as high as
over four million.
The greatest disproportions between "claimed" and actual memberships
were found in the two largest Orthodox jurisdictions:
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (typically claimed 1,954,500* members
versus 440,000 actual adherents)
Orthodox Church in America (1,000,000* versus 115,000 actual adherents)
-[2]-
http://www.geocities.com/vasjp2/ruminatn.htm#GRKNUMS
US%Ancestry: Germanic 30 Celtic 20 Mediterranean 12 Slavic 5
Asian 6 Amerind/Hisp 15 African 12
US%Faiths: Baptist 20 Orthodox 2 Anglican 3 Muslim 4 Jewish 3
Lutheran 8 Methodist 10 Pentecostal 3 Presb/Refm 3 Vaticanist 44.
(Also NYTimes Almanac 2000 p417 says Vat 38% Bapt 17%.. based on nccusa.org)
Greek Orth US (k) Avg Ann 77-93: Baptisms 10 Wedd/Gr 2 Wedd/Mx
3 Chrism 1 Funrl 4 Divrc/Gr .4 Divrc/Mx .3. By diocese (Baptisms,
funerals): NY(1540,763), NJ(1063,458), Chgo(838,425), Atla(740,175),
Detr(573,304), SF(924,377), Pgh(532,281), Bost(942,595); Dividing
difference (Bapt-Funrl) by Grk Pop gro=.6% or USA Pop gro=1% should
approx population.
Orth Chr Laity 1993 Proj Orth Renewal pp20-21 ISBN 0-937032-95-6
1'genrn 200k immigr, 2' 350k 3' 250k 4' 100k Tot 900k.. 1975 Gallup .031 Gr
Orth (Reinken). 670k 1990 550k (Kosmin). Archd 130k fam, 400k indiv. 2/3 Gr
ethn Orth, OCA 24.5kfam* 400.130=75k=150*500parish
1990 US Census C90STF3C1 NY-NNJ-LI-CT MSACMSA=5602: LANGUAGE
SPOKEN AT HOME Speak only English:12,062,150 Greek: 107,612 First
ancestry: Greek 168,688 Second ancestry: Greek: 22,933 Single
ancestry: Greek: 135,206
1990 US Census C90STF3C1 Nationwide Greek: LANGUAGE SPOKEN AT HOME
388,260 First ancestry reported 921,782 Second ancestry reported
188,591 Single ancestry reported 632,540
GSS RELIGKID Protestant 813 Catholic 395 Jewish 29 Orthodox 8 (ie 0.6%)
Moslem 3 Other 21 No religion 46 Don't know 24 No answer 20
550 parishes x 500 members or 200 families make quarter
million, but in 1992 half the parishes had under 75 families and a
total of 86,000 contributing members. OCA has 26,000 supporting
members. There are no more than half a million Orthodox in the USA:
250,000 Greek, 75,000 Russian, 150,000 Antiochian and 2,000 converts.
-[3]-
From: VasosPeter J Panagiotopoulos2d ([23]76530...@COMPUSERVE.COM)
Subject: census
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date: 1993-10-09 09:16:34 PST
to:>internet hel...@uga.cc.uga.edu
John Protopapas (of OC Life) was telling me at St Vlad Ed Day that he
feels there are fewer than half a million Orthodox in America. He claims the
churches get their numbers from ethnic census numbers (which bring in
nonOrthodox converted offspring of mixed marriages) and that baptisms tell a
different story. The following will attempt to reproduce his results out of
academic curiosity without my necessarily believing or endorsing them. Let us
first assume that the GOANSA (Greek Orthodox) numbers multiplied by something
like 2.3 will give the total SCOBA (all Orthodox) numbers. The GOANSA
YEARBOOOK shows ten thousand baptisms per year, a thousand chrismations and 4
thousand funerals, varying by no more than ten percent annually and showing
no significant growth or decline over the past fifteen years, except that the
Reagan years did show a BIG overall slump which has now been recovered. US
Census table 18.3.1.1 shows an overall population of 250 million with a
median age of 32.9, about 11 mln near the age of baptism, 20 mln over the age
of life expectancy, and 40 mln at the typical (late) Orthodox marrying age.
By experience I also add that there are 600 GOANSA parishes each averaging
100 extended families of about five persons each. Taking 10*250/11=227 or
600*100*5=300, we can twice deduce about a quarter million GOANSAns. Comments?
From vj...@panix.com Tue Dec 31 20:02:49 2002
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Subject: A quick question about the numbers of Eastern Orthodox in the USA - February 2002
X-URL: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question17.html
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A Quick Question
How many Eastern Orthodox
are there in the USA?
The quick answer: Far less than usually reported.
The longer answer: According to a recent study of Orthodoxy in the
United States, the real membership (number of adult adherents and
their children) in all Eastern Christian Churches in the USA can be
estimated at about 1,200,000 persons. This figure is considerably
less than the commonly accepted estimations, which range as high as
over four million.
The greatest disproportions between "claimed" and actual memberships
were found in the two largest Orthodox jurisdictions:
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (typically claimed 1,954,500* members
versus 440,000 actual adherents)
Orthodox Church in America (1,000,000* versus 115,000 actual
adherents)
* membership figures are from the Yearbook of American & Canadian
Churches, National Council of Churches, 2000.
The most likely reason for this discrepancy is the common practice of
equating Church membership with the total number of representatives of
a corresponding ethnic group including second and third American
generations of the original immigrants, independent of these persons
actual relationship to the Orthodox Church.
See [28]table below for additional data.
A Troubled Identity
The research also found that Orthodox Churches are struggling with the
issue of their changing nature and mission in American. Beginning in
the 1970s, fundamental changes took place in the demographics of the
Orthodox jurisdictions. These changes included
* the increasing proportion of the American-born members and of
converts who came to the Orthodoxy mainly through the
inter-Christian marriages,
* the new developments in religious education and liturgical life,
and
* the grassroots movements encouraging greater Orthodox unity for
the sake of mission
These changes have essentially altered the standing of the Orthodox
Churches on the contemporary American religious scene. Religious
faith and ethnic identity, once seen as inseparable, are increasingly
less important for the socially-mobile, geographically-dispersed,
English speaking second, third and fourth generations of Orthodox in
America. Nor is this an important consideration for the
ever-increasing number of Orthodox converts raised in other religious
traditions. Nevertheless, at the beginning of a new millennium, the
jurisdictional distinctiveness still does remain a basic
characteristic of Orthodox Christianity in the USA.
Current Sources of Growth in US Orthodox Churches
There are three possible demographic sources of growth: immigration,
the offspring of church members, and Anglo-American converts. In
nearly all of the Orthodox jurisdictions, new immigrants are roughly
as important for membership growth as are the children of existing
members, and in many cases immigration is still the major source of
church growth. With the offspring members there is the added factors
of the natural desire to assimilate into the dominant American culture
and drift away from the language, customs and to a large extent from
the Orthodox faith of their parents.
The Project
This project is a study by Alexei D. Krindatch (Institute of
Geography, Moscow, Russia) of 22 major Orthodox (Eastern Christian)
Churches in the USA with a total membership of 1,200,000 adherents
gathered in 2,400 local parishes.
The research was sponsored by "Association of Statisticians of
American Religious Bodies" as a part of the nationwide "Religious
Congregations Membership Study: 2000." The data were obtained directly
from the headquarters (diocesan offices) of Orthodox Churches in North
America by personal visits there and by interviewing of the church's
leaders the bishops or the chancellors.
Read more about this recent study of Orthodox Churches in the United
States at [29]the index page for this study.
Orthodox Churches in the USA at a Glance
Orthodox
jurisdictions
Parishes
Membership
Full
members
Adherents
(estimate)
1. Orthodox Church in America (OCA)
456
39,400
115,100
1a. Regular Territorial diocese of OCA 368 29,600 76,000
1b. Albanian diocese of OCA
12
1,500
6,500
1c. Bulgarian diocese of OCA
19
1,500
8,800
1d. Romanian episcopate of OCA
57
6,800
23,800
2. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
525
N/d
440,000
3. Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
206
41,840
83,700
4. Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA
78 N/d 57,500
5. Serbian Orthodox Church
40 N/d N/d
6. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
106
9,200
30,000
7. American Carpatho Russian Greek Catholic Diocese of USA
76
11,753
20,000
8. Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America and Canada
14
N/d
6,200
9. Bulgarian Eastern Orthodox Diocese of the USA
9
N/d
4,340
10. Albanian Orthodox Diocese in America
2
350
500
11. Patriarchal parishes of Russian Orthodox Church
33
N/d
N/d
12. Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
128
N/d
N/d
13. Parishes of Macedonian Orthodox Church in USA
16 N/a
14,500
14. Holy Orthodox Church in North America
25 N/a
1,900
15. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Vasiloupolis
39 5,000
28,500
16. Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
18 N/a
36,016
17. Armenian Church of America
89 11,400
45,800
18. Armenian Apostolic Church of America
38 11,100
23,200
19. Archdiocese of North America of Coptic Orthodox Church
116 N/a N/d
20. Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
23 N/d 15,100
21. Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church
22
N/a
4,340
22. American diocese of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
59
N/a
13,300
"N/a"
- not applicable; "N/d" no data available.
"Full members" are generally defined as the persons older than 18,
paying regularly annual Church membership fees and officially recorded
as the members by the Church. These data were obtained from the
headquarters of various Orthodox jurisdictions in USA.
"Adherents" are generally defined as all those baptized Orthodox, who
are well known to the local parish and attend church services several
times a year (at least by major celebrations such as Easter, etc.) and
their children. These data present result of our research work and
were obtained as a result of analysis by comparing of various sources
of information (number of full members, average attendance on regular
Sunday versus major Church feasts, number of persons on mailing lists
of each jurisdiction, the size of the circulation of the major Church
newspaper, etc.).
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-[2]-
http://www.geocities.com/vasjp2/ruminatn.htm#GRKNUMS
US%Ancestry: Germanic 30 Celtic 20 Mediterranean 12 Slavic 5
Asian 6 Amerind/Hisp 15 African 12
US%Faiths: Baptist 20 Orthodox 2 Anglican 3 Muslim 4 Jewish 3
Lutheran 8 Methodist 10 Pentecostal 3 Presb/Refm 3 Vaticanist 44.
(Also NYTimes Almanac 2000 p417 says Vat 38% Bapt 17%.. based on nccusa.org)
Greek Orth US (k) Avg Ann 77-93: Baptisms 10 Wedd/Gr 2 Wedd/Mx
3 Chrism 1 Funrl 4 Divrc/Gr .4 Divrc/Mx .3. By diocese (Baptisms,
funerals): NY(1540,763), NJ(1063,458), Chgo(838,425), Atla(740,175),
Detr(573,304), SF(924,377), Pgh(532,281), Bost(942,595); Dividing
difference (Bapt-Funrl) by Grk Pop gro=.6% or USA Pop gro=1% should
approx population.
Orth Chr Laity 1993 Proj Orth Renewal pp20-21 ISBN 0-937032-95-6
1'genrn 200k immigr, 2' 350k 3' 250k 4' 100k Tot 900k.. 1975 Gallup .031 Gr
Orth (Reinken). 670k 1990 550k (Kosmin). Archd 130k fam, 400k indiv. 2/3 Gr
ethn Orth, OCA 24.5kfam* 400.130=75k=150*500parish
1990 US Census C90STF3C1 NY-NNJ-LI-CT MSACMSA=5602: LANGUAGE
SPOKEN AT HOME Speak only English:12,062,150 Greek: 107,612 First
ancestry: Greek 168,688 Second ancestry: Greek: 22,933 Single
ancestry: Greek: 135,206
1990 US Census C90STF3C1 Nationwide Greek: LANGUAGE SPOKEN AT HOME
388,260 First ancestry reported 921,782 Second ancestry reported
188,591 Single ancestry reported 632,540
GSS RELIGKID Protestant 813 Catholic 395 Jewish 29 Orthodox 8 (ie 0.6%)
Moslem 3 Other 21 No religion 46 Don't know 24 No answer 20
550 parishes x 500 members or 200 families make quarter
million, but in 1992 half the parishes had under 75 families and a
total of 86,000 contributing members. OCA has 26,000 supporting
members. There are no more than half a million Orthodox in the USA:
250,000 Greek, 75,000 Russian, 150,000 Antiochian and 2,000 converts.
-[3]-
From: VasosPeter J Panagiotopoulos2d ([23]76530...@COMPUSERVE.COM)
Subject: census
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date: 1993-10-09 09:16:34 PST
to:>internet hel...@uga.cc.uga.edu
John Protopapas (of OC Life) was telling me at St Vlad Ed Day that he
feels there are fewer than half a million Orthodox in America. He claims the
churches get their numbers from ethnic census numbers (which bring in
nonOrthodox converted offspring of mixed marriages) and that baptisms tell a
different story. The following will attempt to reproduce his results out of
academic curiosity without my necessarily believing or endorsing them. Let us
first assume that the GOANSA (Greek Orthodox) numbers multiplied by something
like 2.3 will give the total SCOBA (all Orthodox) numbers. The GOANSA
YEARBOOOK shows ten thousand baptisms per year, a thousand chrismations and 4
thousand funerals, varying by no more than ten percent annually and showing
no significant growth or decline over the past fifteen years, except that the
Reagan years did show a BIG overall slump which has now been recovered. US
Census table 18.3.1.1 shows an overall population of 250 million with a
median age of 32.9, about 11 mln near the age of baptism, 20 mln over the age
of life expectancy, and 40 mln at the typical (late) Orthodox marrying age.
By experience I also add that there are 600 GOANSA parishes each averaging
100 extended families of about five persons each. Taking 10*250/11=227 or
600*100*5=300, we can twice deduce about a quarter million GOANSAns. Comments?
Cunneen
>Orthodoxy; traditional Christianity without the pope.
I venture to say that most Americans love and respect the Pope. If
someone has a tendency toward traditional Christianity, the
institution of the Papacy is not the main impediment to becoming
Catholic. The main impediment for the traditionalist is the
"modernizing" trend in Catholicism since Vatican II. Why would a
traditionalist go to a church that promotes guitar Masses? *That's*
why someone would become Orthodox rather than Catholic!>>
No, you don't appreciate the depths of anti-papalism in Protestantism. It's
not a reasoned position; the pope was thrown at them since childhood as the
boogey man, the antiChrist, with Catholicism as the whore of Revelation. The
result is an invincible revulsion to things papal and Roman.
As an RCIA director for many years, converts tend to take the church where it's
at today. They don't care what it was thirty years ago, just what it is now.
If they find Christ in the church today, if they find meaning and fellowship,
they'll stay.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>I think that Alexander and vip2 are discussing the future of
>the Greek-American subculture per se, not the future of
>Greek Orthodoxy in the US per se.
>
>Because the two are intertwined today, they necessarily
>include Greek Orthodoxy in their discussion. But ISTM
>they're not focusing on whether potential converts would be
>welcomed in GOA parishes.
>
Orthodoxy, but it won't stand or fall because of converts. The vast
majority of the Orthodox in America are "cradle" Orthodox --
immigrants or the children of immigrants. That's why the issue of
ethnic identity is so important. If Orthodoxy relied on converts, it
would be just another tiny denomination. Absent the ethnic connection,
the number of "converts out" would greatly exceed the number of
"converts in."
As far as the issue of welcoming converts goes, why wouldn't the
Orthodox welcome them? After all, the converts boost the Orthodox
numbers and clout. The only people who would object to converts would
be some aged immigrants who still think of the Church as "our thing."
Alexander Arnakis
All Europe is secular, judging from the statistics on church
attendance. But, to be fair, Greece and Italy are more religious than,
say, France or Britain. Some 20 - 25% of Greeks are regular
churchgoers. (This is still a lot less than in the U.S.)
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:49:04 GMT,
>alexande...@verizon.net (Alexander Arnakis) said ...
>
>> The attitude of most Greeks (at least the ones that I know) is that
>> monasteries make very good substitutes for lunatic asylums!
>
>"God looks after lunatics and small children ..."
To amplify -- The Greek mental-health system is overtaxed. If some of
the marginal cases would enter monasteries, that would relieve some of
the burden. But keep in mind that the overtly delusional are unlikely
to be accepted as monks. (I was present once in a Mt. Athos monastery
when just such a candidate was rejected.) Those with milder symptoms,
such as various neuroses, agoraphobia, etc., are likely to fit right
in.
T254
>be some aged immigrants who still think of the Church as "our thing."
Which is a perfect example of yourself Alexander.
Bob
Bob Tallick
Alexander Arnakis
I don't think of the Church as "my thing" at all. I'm in the happy
position of being able to stand back and look at it objectively.
vj...@biostrategist.com
On secularism, it's true. A decade ago, the (London)
_Economist scoffed that in the USA folks are highly religious which
makes them more like the third world than like Europe.
On converts, I'd like to see converts stay. I have been
disappointed despite my 20yrs-ago enthusiasm on converts. To get a
few converts for a handful of years, at most a decade, when you also
have a flock, wastes a lot of energy. Find a way to make them stay and
that might change. There have been very few mass conversions in our
time. Maybe the Black Muslims, the Baptists, and the Catholics, but
this has been more because of regional/racial/ethnic reasons than
genuine faith. In the USA, religion has unfortunately been very much a
code word to disguise racial segregation. People change religion these
days for the same reason they divorce - their lives change and their
personality, their interests, their careers, can have radical shifts
uneard of in prior times. The religion of the future will therefore
have to be adaptible on the outside, but constant on the inside,
understanding, able to change with the environment, but providing a
sence of permanence, a sanctuary from the ever-changing world outside.
vj...@biostrategist.com
horrid conditions of the assylum on the island of Leros?
Dogs, even in older Greece, lived better.
A mentality not unlike that behind the ancient practice of infanticide.
In <m0p41voh80ace8lb1...@4ax.com> by Alexander Arnakis
<alexande...@verizon.net> on Wed, 01 Jan 2003 03:51:37 GMT we perused:
*+-To amplify -- The Greek mental-health system is overtaxed. If some of
Steve Hayes
>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:49:04 GMT,
>alexande...@verizon.net (Alexander Arnakis) said ...
>> On 31 Dec 2002 07:55:53 GMT, cun...@aol.com (Cunneen) wrote:
>> >
>> >That's an awful denunciation of Orthodoxy! "Incidentally, their Orthodoxy" --
>> >is that all it was for them, incidental???
>> >
>> In a word, yes. Very few Greeks are serious about religion -- any
>> religion. Greece today is an essentially secular country, with
>> adequate lip service being paid to the "prevailing" Orthodox religion.
>> If you study history, you know that this is the same attitude
>> exhibited by the ancient Greeks, who were fairly cynical about their
>> pagan gods, endowing them with all the human foibles.
>
>It's also the same attitude exhibited by most Western
>Europeans -- Britain, France, Italy, Germany, and so forth.
>In Britain, it seems to be a phenomenon of the 20th century
>-- post WW I -- but I don't know of any solid studies that
>clinch that notion.
>
There are parallels to this in the attitudes of Anglicans in Argentina.
Perhaps someone should to a comparative missiological study.
It's only over the loast 20 years that Anglicans in Argentina, especially in
Buenos Aires, have started introducing Spanish into their services. The
churches were attended mainly by English-speaking people, and the churches
were a kind of ethnic ghetto. But as generations have passed, many of the
people have married Spanish-speaking spouses. Their kids grow up speaking
Spanish, so why should they inflict an English-speaking church on them -
rather join a Roman Catholic or Pentecostal Church.
Diaspora communities are all very similar in some ways.
--
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Warecliff
observations. My grandfather from Greece married my grandmother here in
America. She was from a family who came here in 1623 and anything but Greek.
When she died a few years back, at 92, most of the parishioners were surprised
to learn that she wasn't born in Greece. When Papou first came here in 1908, he
worked a shoeshine boy. A rich Irishman always stopped to have his shoes shined
and gave papou a 10 cent tip. Papou and Yiaya's daughter, my Mother, grew up to
marry the grandson of the rich Irishman, my Dad. I was raised in a Greek
household...Greek school, Church, the whole nine yards, but taught to love and
respect the RC Church and our Irish heritage. I was an altar boy in both
Churches. My wife's people came here in 1633 and she was raised a
Congregationalist. After 26 years of marriage to me, she is one of the best
cooks in the parish, a welcomed and popular visitor and relative in the
ancestoral village in Greece (a couple of years back she lead the dance line of
the village women during the May day celebration), a past member of the
soumvoulio and president of the Ladies Society. My boys are the fifth
generation of the family in our parish and regularly travel to the Patrida,
which they love. But we are all thoroughly and absolutely American...Orthodox
Americans.
In our little parish up here in the snow, we have been blessed with a dynamic
young priest and the additional presence of an Antiochian Archmandrite who is
French Canadian and a convert. Between the two of them we are seeing a surge of
interest in Orthodoxy among Catholics and Protestants, especially Episcopalians
and just this year several chrismations, but only after long study. The parish
is growing and active, internally and in the greater community around us. The
ethnic club atmosphere is virtually gone and the liturgy more than 80% prayed
in English. As president of the soumvoulio, I received, right after the priest
arrived, 2 complaints about this. Those people are now the biggest supporters
of the priest. Believe it or not, the children of the "Xenoi" have picked up
some Greek, perhaps by osmosis, and the parents have embraced our Greek culture
to a great extent. Conversely, the tone of both general assemblies and
soumvoulio meetings has become increasingly civil. And the singing of Christmas
carols after the Liturgy this year sounded much better than in the past!
I do believe that Orthodoxy in many senses defines "Greekness", but not the
other way around. And I thank God everyday for the good Orthodox Americans who
have become part of our community here. I do hope that what I am seeing here in
Maine will be the future of the Church in America, for Greeks and everyone
else.
Jack Clifford
++
I have noticed in the better parishes over the years. What I have noticed in the
more nationalist parishes/clubs one is that they end up having a large turnover so
that when you show up a couple years down the line, you only notice a few people
you know with the rest replaced by new nationalists. I passed one of those the
other week, had actually gone into the bookshop to see if they had something.
Outside, my family encountered some people we hadn't before seen, sitting around a
fire outside, speaking to a few people who conversed with them about pagan winter
figures.
When we passed by, the head of these actually started insulting us in their
language, even calling us "those idiots" and couple other unnecessary things,
assuming no one would understand. I had not noticed them from my visit there a year
ago. And all we were doing is passing by and seeing what they were selling
outside, saying nothing.
"And why are we idiots," I asked in their language, "and who are you? Are you
Orthodox? Is that how Orthodox speak these days?"
There were profuse apologies, but all oriented toward "We didn't know you
understood us, forgive me!" instead of stating that they shouldn't have been
talking about people nastily to begin with. "We didn't realize you were one of us,"
said the leader of that group.
"We're not one of you," I replied. "In Christ there is no Greek nor Jew, no male
nor female...In Christ there are only Christians."
"I don't understand," was the reply.
"Ask Father X," I replied, mentioning someone who could put them straight about the
relationship of pagan national customs with Christianity.
Warecliff wrote:
> I do believe that Orthodoxy in many senses defines "Greekness", but not the
> other way around. And I thank God everyday for the good Orthodox Americans
> whohave become part of our community here. I do hope that what I am seeing here
> in Maine will be the future of the Church in America, for Greeks and everyone
> else.
>
> Jack Clifford
Orthodoxy has never been exclusive until just a decade or so ago. This is not to
say that there weren't people who had a problem with their faith. In almost every
heritage type of Orthodoxy, you run into at least one individual who says "If you
aren't [Greek, Romanian, Serb, Russian, Ukrainian, Macedonian, Bulgarian,
Belorussian, Carpathorussian, Moldovan, etc.], then why are you Orthodox?" They
don't seem to accept that Orthodoxy is the true Christian religion, but ask if
"there must be a father, a grandmother, something." Do they think so little of
their faith that if there is no genetic connection then why bother with such a
religion? Sometimes such individuals go even further "Did you once fall in love
with one of us?", assuming that only something strong and powerful like love or
strong and powerful like temporary lust could bind someone to the True Faith. For
such people, I think it is very important NOT to have a heritage, or at least to
refuse to present one. For such people, tied to the faith for all the wrong
reasons, (but at least it is a start) it is indeed important to be heritage free.
For Orthodoxy, there need be no excuse. And to keep our Orthodoxy pure of
nationalism, pure of hatred, free from manipulation politically or socially, should
be a constant struggle. At the same time, Jack, keeping Orthodox customs alive is
very important, whether it is a way of making pogacha or artos or the singing of a
single hymn - nothing should be lost, if possible, and all should be made
accessible for the next generations. I was thinking about this accessibility even
regarding two different English service CDs put out by St. Vladimir's. One, a
Pascha CD, is clear - you can hear (and possibly learn) every word. For the other,
a Christmas CD, if you did not know the words already, you are lost in a sea of
borrowed sopranos and sometimes precious pronunciation. Nor did anyone bother to
print the words in the insert. It would not have mattered as much that the
Christmas CD had been a theatrical production, had words been enclosed.
At this time of year, along with the civil calendar, I always pray for one thing -
that my grandchildren, at least a few of them (I'm realistic), be Orthodox. Not
because they are "ians" or "ecks" or "ists" or any other nation in part, in whole
or by vague memory, for politics, for sentimentality, or even by admiration, but
because our Christianity has been kept whole enough in its essentially truth and
beauty that it would be something they, too, would wish to persevere, to have as a
lifestyle. To achieve that, we must all be vigilant against the corruption of and
corrupted use of Orthodox Christianity. And vigilant about it being made
accessible to all. We should each of us, I think, not proseletyze as much as open
our arms wide to hug any and every person who comes near us. "Welcome, welcome!"
"hug, hug", "kiss, kiss!", "Come celebrate the feast with us!" "How beautiful it
is, do you see?" and "It is nice to see you again. How have you been? ", to be
happy to see each and everyone. Every one is precious. Every one is the last
Christian, and the first. Every single one should bring tears of joy to our eyes.
"Glory to God in the highest.
And on earth peace,
Good will to men,"
Srekna Nova Godina / Happy New Year,
Galina
++
vj...@biostrategist.com wrote: The religion of the future will therefore
> have to be adaptible on the outside, but constant on the inside,
> understanding, able to change with the environment, but providing a
> sence of permanence, a sanctuary from the ever-changing world outside.
There is a kind of instinct people have within them that really is a knee jerk
reaction against racism.
After the new calendar Christmas Eve service, one of my sons and I went over
nearby to the Washington Cathedral for their late service extravaganza. One
thing I noticed (also being amused to notice a gaggle of Orthodox diplomats
who individually showed up there, some taking communion) is that all the
people who did not look like Wasps , or the ones that weren't Episcopalian
(most of them clutching their service programs, still reading the instructions
on how to go up to the communion, or asking one of the ushers how it was done)
is that they all headed like homing pigeons to the one afro-American priest
handing out the communion. Some knew me and noticed me on the way back, as I
was sitting pretty up front. "they give you a crunchy cracker," said one,
referring to the wafer, "And then you get a slug of wine. And they don't
apparently care who or what you are," said one Balkan friend.
Alexander Arnakis
>
>....... In almost every
>heritage type of Orthodoxy, you run into at least one individual who says "If you
>don't seem to accept that Orthodoxy is the true Christian religion, but ask if
>"there must be a father, a grandmother, something." Do they think so little of
>their faith that if there is no genetic connection then why bother with such a
>religion? Sometimes such individuals go even further "Did you once fall in love
>with one of us?", assuming that only something strong and powerful like love or
>strong and powerful like temporary lust could bind someone to the True Faith.
Galina, let me turn this around and ask you -- if you have no genetic
connection to "Macedonia," then why are you so enamored of
"Macedonia"? It appears that your True Faith is not Orthodoxy, but a
geopolitical entity known as the FYROM. Why else are you the one-woman
cheering squad for it here?
>
>For Orthodoxy, there need be no excuse. And to keep our Orthodoxy pure of
>nationalism, pure of hatred, free from manipulation politically or socially, should
>be a constant struggle.
Pot calling the kettle black. The hypocrisy of this statement, coming
from you, is mind-boggling.
Dana Netherton
Hayes) said ...
Indeed. "Are we expatriates [people who are "abroad"
temporarily, and will return home in due course? or are we
emigrants [people who have settled here for the rest of our
lives, we and our children and their children]?"
The Greeks in the US are still unclear about the answer to
this question. Many of them (and apparently the church
hierarchy) behave as if they are expatriates ... however,
their children and grandchildren who grew up in the US would
call them "emigrants" (or "immigrants", being now Americans
themselves).
Probably ditto the Argentinean Anglicans, who appear to be
slipping slowly from being expatriates to being
emigrants/immigrants. When the transition goes far enough,
their church's model needs to change.
In Britain, the Lutheran community began as expatriates --
first refugees from Nazi-occupied territories (who might
have returned after the end of WW II), then businessmen and
diplomats (and families) temporarily assigned to Britain.
The businessmen and diplomats continue to cycle from the
Continent to Britain and back. However, many of the
refugees stayed, married Brits, and raised their children in
Britain.
The German-etc speaking Lutheran churches in London continue
to serve the expatriate community. About 40 years ago, the
refugee families founded an English-speaking Lutheran
congregation in London. There's still *one* English-
speaking Lutheran congregation in London, and a handful of
smaller ones elsewhere in England (none in Scotland, Wales
or N. Ireland, AFAIK).
Oh, there are also some congregations founded by Lutheran
missionaries from the US -- affiliated with the LC-Missouri
Synod, and I think with the LC-Wisconsin Synod, Lutheran
denominations that view anything non-Lutheran as substandard
Christianity. AFAIK, they had an initial spell of success,
chiefly by opening up churches in new communities that had
no churches, but stagnated thereafter. (I could be wrong
about their progress ... my knowledge was second-hand, and
is now very dated.)
So ... yes, there are lots of similarities among minority
religious groups with a long heritage as the majority
heritage, back home, that then proceed to move into others'
territories.
Dana Netherton
(Warecliff) said ...
> Well, I have now read thirty messages on this thread and have a few
> observations.
<snip>
> I do believe that Orthodoxy in many senses defines "Greekness", but not the
> other way around. And I thank God everyday for the good Orthodox Americans who
> have become part of our community here. I do hope that what I am seeing here in
> Maine will be the future of the Church in America, for Greeks and everyone
> else.
>
> Jack Clifford
Dang, this is good to hear! Amen, amen, amen!
Happy New Year.
--
(Mr) Dana Netherton, who is learning some Greek in order to
be able to help with chanting the Byzantine chant; our
protopsaltis, a couple of Sundays ago, after we finished
chanting while the antidoron was being distributed, said:
"Your Greek is coming along well. Now your *English* ..."
(with a big grin, of course!)
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>Indeed. "Are we expatriates [people who are "abroad"
>temporarily, and will return home in due course? or are we
>emigrants [people who have settled here for the rest of our
>lives, we and our children and their children]?"
>
>The Greeks in the US are still unclear about the answer to
>this question. Many of them (and apparently the church
>hierarchy) behave as if they are expatriates ... however,
>their children and grandchildren who grew up in the US would
>call them "emigrants" (or "immigrants", being now Americans
>themselves).
>
Greek immigrants to the U.S. originally came here for economic
reasons, with every intention of returning to Greece once they had
made their fortunes. Some never made the expected fortunes, and many
of *them* returned home in disgrace. Others did well, and after many
years did return to the Old Country. But they discovered that their
very success had soured their relationships. They found a relatively
poor Greece, which they looked at with a jaundiced eye, while, on the
other hand, the relatives that they had left behind were resentful of
them. Basically, a long stay in America had changed the immigrants'
way of thinking and expectations.
The official Greek statistics today show that very few Greeks are
permanently repatriated from America. "Repatriations" come from the
former East Bloc, from the Third World, and from places like Germany,
to which Greeks had gone as "guest workers."
Greek government policy recognizes this reality. Greeks from America
(and, to a lesser extent, places like Canada and Australia) aren't
really expected to want to resettle in Greece. They form the
"permanent diaspora." What the Greek powers-that-be (including the
Church hierarchy) would like is for the Greeks in America to retain
their Greek identity but remain in place. This has obvious advantages
for everyone involved.
The problem, as you point out, comes in later generations, when the
"American" cultural identity begins to overwhelm the Greek one. This
is what the debate about the role of the Church is all about. How can
the Greek identity be maintained in parallel with the American one?
From the Greek point of view, the Church, like it or not, is central
to this.
vj...@biostrategist.com
history have gone to foreign places, lived there for a few generations
and then went back. Most nationalities don't have collective memories
of such events, and so assume they will never return to the land of
their ancestry. But during the previous century, you had Greeks going
to Greece from (Ivero-Pontic) Georgia, Egypt, and so on. I believe
this model does NOT APPLY ANY MORE, and especially not in the USA.
But habits imparted by the lessons of history have taught Greeks that
inevitably, they will be ejected and their ancestors will go back.
The idea of assimilative immigration (esp. for those who came to the
USA during the 1970s - when the USA appeared to be splitting into many
ethnicities or "minorities") is totally incomprehensible to them.
In <MPG.187d0eff9...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> by Dana Netherton
<neth...@juno.com> on Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:44:24 GMT we perused:
*+-Indeed. "Are we expatriates [people who are "abroad"
*+-temporarily, and will return home in due course? or are we
*+-emigrants [people who have settled here for the rest of our
*+-lives, we and our children and their children]?"
*+-The Greeks in the US are still unclear about the answer to
*+-this question.
vj...@biostrategist.com
ghettos or in Greece. The Greek government has set up an Organisation
for Expatriate Hellenism, called "SAE" and they are trying to kill off
AHEPA and substitute it with SAE. (By contrast, my Taiwanese friends
tell me their government got the overseas Chinese to set up a chapter
of their "Monte Jade" organisation in Taiwan.)
I kid you not, but I have spoken with senior Greek diplomats
who believe there are twice as many expatriate Greeks than residents
of Greece; and these self-same diplomats believe in bizarrely
dangerous adventurist notions that all Greek troops have to do is land
in Turkey and the majority of the population of Turkey (supposedly
being "hidden" Greeks) will rise up and then all this supposed
expatriate diaspora will return to greece to defeat off the Turks!
Why does this happen? Because wherever a Greek diplomat is posted, he
seeks to parade his lazy behind in the Greek ghettoes rather than try
to acquaint himself with his host country's culture to better do his
job. It is no wonder that most Greek foreign policy initiatives fall
on deaf ears.
In <av07ov$gf3$1...@reader1.panix.com> by vj...@biostrategist.com
on Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:22:23 +0000 (UTC) we perused:
*+- Well, you hit the nail on the head. Greeks, throughout
*+-history have gone to foreign places, lived there for a few generations
*+-and then went back. Most nationalities don't have collective memories
*+-of such events, and so assume they will never return to the land of
*+-their ancestry. But during the previous century, you had Greeks going
*+-to Greece from (Ivero-Pontic) Georgia, Egypt, and so on. I believe
*+-this model does NOT APPLY ANY MORE, and especially not in the USA.
*+-But habits imparted by the lessons of history have taught Greeks that
*+-inevitably, they will be ejected and their ancestors will go back.
*+-The idea of assimilative immigration (esp. for those who came to the
*+-USA during the 1970s - when the USA appeared to be splitting into many
*+-ethnicities or "minorities") is totally incomprehensible to them.
*+-In <MPG.187d0eff9...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> by Dana Netherton
*+- <neth...@juno.com> on Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:44:24 GMT we perused:
*+-*+-Indeed. "Are we expatriates [people who are "abroad"
*+-*+-temporarily, and will return home in due course? or are we
*+-*+-emigrants [people who have settled here for the rest of our
*+-*+-lives, we and our children and their children]?"
*+-*+-The Greeks in the US are still unclear about the answer to
*+-*+-this question.
*+- - = -
*+- Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
*+- BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
*+- http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
*+- ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
*+- [Fooey on GUI: [MS,X] Windows is for Bimbos]
Cunneen
USA during the 1970s - when the USA appeared to be splitting into many
ethnicities or "minorities") is totally incomprehensible to them.>>
Very interesting concept. American style "Assimilative immigration" really IS
a new reality, isn't it? Of course, it isn't just American; we see it in
Canada and Latin America and Australia. But the great variety of nationalities
really is particular to the U.S., I think.
The Greeks, being Mediterranean white, have little or no trouble fitting in and
intermarrying. Nor do the Russians or most of what we think of as the Orthodox
world.
I live among a lot of Filipinos, and they are having the same problem with
assimilation. They thought that there would be little or no intermarriage;
instead more than 30% of the young Filipinos marry non-Filipinos.
No one is immune from assimilative immigration these days. Everyone is
marrying everyone!
Alexander Arnakis
> Well, you hit the nail on the head. Greeks, throughout
>history have gone to foreign places, lived there for a few generations
>and then went back. Most nationalities don't have collective memories
>of such events, and so assume they will never return to the land of
>their ancestry. But during the previous century, you had Greeks going
>to Greece from (Ivero-Pontic) Georgia, Egypt, and so on. I believe
>this model does NOT APPLY ANY MORE, and especially not in the USA.
>But habits imparted by the lessons of history have taught Greeks that
>inevitably, they will be ejected and their ancestors will go back.
>The idea of assimilative immigration (esp. for those who came to the
>USA during the 1970s - when the USA appeared to be splitting into many
>ethnicities or "minorities") is totally incomprehensible to them.
>
But even in ancient (classical) Greece, you had the model of permanent
colonization. The major city-states planted colonies, first, in other
parts of Greece, and then expanded to all parts of the Mediterranean
(Sicily, Marseilles, the Spanish coast, etc.). The thinking was that
these colonists would *not* go back to their home cities; rather, they
would set up permanent outposts and proceed to Hellenize their new
environments.
You're confusing the Jewish Diaspora (which was the result of
persecution) with the Greek Diaspora (which was and is an effort at
self-betterment).
Regarding "assimilative immigration," the goal of every immigrant
should be to fit seamlessly into his new environment. But there's
another, deeper level, involving core identity. In other words, the
"outer man" can become American while the core remains Greek. Becoming
acclimatized to a new language and culture should be an additive, not
a subtractive, process.
Dana Netherton
supplementary comments.
-- Dana, who got his bachelor's degree at St John's College
Annapolis, and who knows very well how important Greece was
to the formation of the Western culture (and who also likes
those very likeable people in his new parish!)
On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:43:13 +0000 (UTC),
vj...@biostrategist.com (vj...@biostrategist.com) said ...
Steve Hayes
>On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:15:10 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve
>Hayes) said ...
>> There are parallels to this in the attitudes of Anglicans in Argentina.
>> Perhaps someone should to a comparative missiological study.
>>
>> It's only over the loast 20 years that Anglicans in Argentina, especially in
>> Buenos Aires, have started introducing Spanish into their services. The
>> churches were attended mainly by English-speaking people, and the churches
>> were a kind of ethnic ghetto. But as generations have passed, many of the
>> people have married Spanish-speaking spouses. Their kids grow up speaking
>> Spanish, so why should they inflict an English-speaking church on them -
>> rather join a Roman Catholic or Pentecostal Church.
>>
>> Diaspora communities are all very similar in some ways.
>
>Indeed. "Are we expatriates [people who are "abroad"
>temporarily, and will return home in due course? or are we
>emigrants [people who have settled here for the rest of our
>lives, we and our children and their children]?"
>
>The Greeks in the US are still unclear about the answer to
>this question. Many of them (and apparently the church
>hierarchy) behave as if they are expatriates ... however,
>their children and grandchildren who grew up in the US would
>call them "emigrants" (or "immigrants", being now Americans
>themselves).
>
>Probably ditto the Argentinean Anglicans, who appear to be
>slipping slowly from being expatriates to being
>emigrants/immigrants. When the transition goes far enough,
>their church's model needs to change.
The language, and the way in which the church was established, seem to
determine the way such a community functions.
In the case of the Brits in Argentina, and the Greeks in North America, South
Africa, Australia and other places, they spoke a different language from the
majority. They had migrated for economic reasons. The expatriate communities
built their own churches and imported their own clorgy as a kind of private
enterprise, apart from the church. They didn't ask a bishop to send them a
priest, because there was no bishop.
The church became a centre for language and culture as well as religion. It
was a place where their children could hear "their" language. So the churches
were ghetto comunities.
In South Africa, one reason that this didn't happen with Anglicans (as it did
in South America) was that they were missionary. They evangelised local people
who spoke a variety of languages. They established a local episcopate, and
thogh there were some with the disapora mentality who objected, eventually the
local church model prevailed (there is still a schismatic Anglican body called
"The Church of England in South Africa", but it is not in comunion with the
Church of England).
People with the expatriate/diaspora mentality end up with hyphenated names -
Anlgo-Argentines, Greek Americans, Arab-Americans, African-Americans, Albanian
Americans etc.
>In Britain, the Lutheran community began as expatriates --
>first refugees from Nazi-occupied territories (who might
>have returned after the end of WW II), then businessmen and
>diplomats (and families) temporarily assigned to Britain.
I think it goes back a long way before that - at least to the time of King
George I, the first of the Hanoverian monarchs. But yes, refugees from the
Nazi oppression did give it a boost.
I knew one Anglican priest who had been such a refugee. He had been studying
to be a Rabi in Germany, went to England in about 1938, and became an
Anglican. He Anglicised his name, and when I knew him was more English than
the English. A refugee who became an imiigrant, and no diaspora.
Dana Netherton
>
> > Well, you hit the nail on the head. Greeks, throughout
> >history have gone to foreign places, lived there for a few generations
> >and then went back. Most nationalities don't have collective memories
> >of such events, and so assume they will never return to the land of
> >their ancestry. But during the previous century, you had Greeks going
> >to Greece from (Ivero-Pontic) Georgia, Egypt, and so on. I believe
> >this model does NOT APPLY ANY MORE, and especially not in the USA.
> >But habits imparted by the lessons of history have taught Greeks that
> >inevitably, they will be ejected and their ancestors will go back.
> >The idea of assimilative immigration (esp. for those who came to the
> >USA during the 1970s - when the USA appeared to be splitting into many
> >ethnicities or "minorities") is totally incomprehensible to them.
>
> But even in ancient (classical) Greece, you had the model of permanent
> colonization. The major city-states planted colonies, first, in other
> parts of Greece, and then expanded to all parts of the Mediterranean
> (Sicily, Marseilles, the Spanish coast, etc.). The thinking was that
> these colonists would *not* go back to their home cities; rather, they
> would set up permanent outposts and proceed to Hellenize their new
> environments.
Mind you, in that "B.C." era the colonies were moving into
areas that were considerably less thickly-populated than
America was, even 100 years ago. More like the first
English colonies on these shores. Which quickly "took over"
the neighborhood ... just as those Greek colonies did in the
classical era.
Today? Folks who go to an already-settled country are going
to be either expatriates or emigrants ... not colonists.
> Regarding "assimilative immigration," the goal of every immigrant
> should be to fit seamlessly into his new environment. But there's
> another, deeper level, involving core identity. In other words, the
> "outer man" can become American while the core remains Greek. Becoming
> acclimatized to a new language and culture should be an additive, not
> a subtractive, process.
And BTW as a WASO (and former WASP) I have no problem with
this, since the "additions" go both ways.
Without such additions from German culture, we Americans
wouldn't have hamburgers or lager beer -- just sandwiches
and ale.
Without such additions from Jewish culture, we wouldn't have
"White Christmas" and "God Bless America" (both written by
Irving Berlin, of course).
And on, and on.
Having spent a few years as an expat myself, I have a lot of
sympathy with expats ... and btw I have a lot of sympathy
with the expat's desire to worship in his mother tongue. So
I'm giving zero "push" to the increased use of English in my
parish.
When people are ready for it, it will happen. Til then --
I'm happy to sing Divine Liturgy music in Greek in the
choir, and to chant the Sunday Matins ison in Greek in the
kliros. (Frankly, I'm happy just to be there. Language,
schmanguage (another Jewish "addition" to the culture!)!
Alexander Arnakis
> I should add that my comments apply more to Greeks in USA
>ghettos or in Greece. The Greek government has set up an Organisation
>for Expatriate Hellenism, called "SAE" and they are trying to kill off
>AHEPA and substitute it with SAE. (By contrast, my Taiwanese friends
>tell me their government got the overseas Chinese to set up a chapter
>of their "Monte Jade" organisation in Taiwan.)
>
That's the General Secretariat for Greeks Abroad (GGAE). See
http://www.ggae.gr/default.en.asp I've visited their offices in
Athens, and they're quite friendly and helpful people.
To say that this organization is trying to kill off AHEPA is nonsense.
They're trying to work *with* Greek civic associations like AHEPA.
> I kid you not, but I have spoken with senior Greek diplomats
>who believe there are twice as many expatriate Greeks than residents
>of Greece;
Well, in a loose way, there are. There are about 11 million Greeks in
Greece, and at least twice that many people in the rest of the world
having *some* Greek ancestry. That's not to say that all of those with
some Greek ancestry even identify themselves any longer as Greeks.
>and these self-same diplomats believe in bizarrely
>dangerous adventurist notions that all Greek troops have to do is land
>in Turkey and the majority of the population of Turkey (supposedly
>being "hidden" Greeks) will rise up and then all this supposed
>expatriate diaspora will return to greece to defeat off the Turks!
If a Greek diplomat told you this, he was pulling your leg! The Greek
diplomats I've met have been pretty savvy people. (The selection
process tends to weed out the bozos.) They're well aware of the true
situation in Turkey.
>Why does this happen? Because wherever a Greek diplomat is posted, he
>seeks to parade his lazy behind in the Greek ghettoes rather than try
>to acquaint himself with his host country's culture to better do his
>job. It is no wonder that most Greek foreign policy initiatives fall
>on deaf ears.
>
Maybe the problem is in the Greeks in the "ghettoes" hearing what they
want to hear, rather that what is actually being said? For example,
I've been to many meetings of the Epirotic Society in Washington,
D.C., in which maps of southern Albania were trotted out, purporting
to show a huge Greek population in what they call Northern Epirus. If
a Greek diplomat was present, and solemnly nodded at the speeches,
they took that as a sign of validation. The fact is that there are
precious few Greeks left in Albania. (Most of them were smart enough
to leave as soon as they could.)
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>Today? Folks who go to an already-settled country are going
>to be either expatriates or emigrants ... not colonists.
>
that the Greek Establishment thinks of the Greek diaspora as colonists
-- agents of influence in their host countries. For this to be true,
they have to keep their Greek identity intact.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>In South Africa, one reason that this didn't happen with Anglicans (as it did
>in South America) was that they were missionary. They evangelised local people
>who spoke a variety of languages. They established a local episcopate, and
>thogh there were some with the disapora mentality who objected, eventually the
>local church model prevailed (there is still a schismatic Anglican body called
>Church of England).
>
That's odd. How can that be, when the Anglicans offer open communion
to everyone? (At least the Episcopalians around here commune any
baptized Christian.)
>People with the expatriate/diaspora mentality end up with hyphenated names -
>Anglo-Argentines, Greek Americans, Arab-Americans, African-Americans, Albanian
>Americans etc.
>
It's a little more complicated than that. For example,
African-Americans don't consider themselves expatriates from Africa,
except in the loosest sense. (Actually, "African-American" is a polite
synonym for "black" -- a white South African immigrating to the U.S.
wouldn't be called "African-American.") These hyphenated names just as
often denote simple origin as they do expatriate status.
Dana Netherton
Hayes) said ...
> On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:44:24 GMT, Dana Netherton <neth...@juno.com> wrote:
<various interesting comments snipped ... >
> >In Britain, the Lutheran community began as expatriates --
> >first refugees from Nazi-occupied territories (who might
> >have returned after the end of WW II), then businessmen and
> >diplomats (and families) temporarily assigned to Britain.
>
> I think it goes back a long way before that - at least to the time of King
> George I, the first of the Hanoverian monarchs. But yes, refugees from the
> Nazi oppression did give it a boost.
Now that you mention it, I do remember that the precedent
being used today is said to have been established under
George I: that the Lutherans were permitted to worship in
their own church (and not in "the church by law
established", that is, the Church of England) without
interference from English authorities ... so long as they
did not try to evangelize among the English population!
I heard this quoted by a Lutheran church leader in Britain,
who said he had had it quoted to him by a C of E leader.
Whether the C of E leader had a twinkle in his eye when he
quoted it ... I cannot say!
> I knew one Anglican priest who had been such a refugee. He had been studying
> to be a Rabi in Germany, went to England in about 1938, and became an
> Anglican. He Anglicised his name, and when I knew him was more English than
> the English. A refugee who became an immigrant, and no diaspora.
Of course, there is also a strong "diaspora" Jewish
community in northern London: in Golders Green and Finchley,
Margaret Thatcher's old constituency. With a Chief Rabbi
and everything. :-)
(I lived in Finchley while I was studying in London. Watched
a few Orthodox Jewish families walk past my windows, late
Friday afternoons, heading for synagogue.)
Dana Netherton
Yup, that's the impression I get too. :-)
vj...@biostrategist.com
<neth...@juno.com> on Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:11:34 GMT we perused:
*+-Without such additions from German culture, we Americans
*+-wouldn't have hamburgers or lager beer
BTW, you should note that a hundred years ago Germans in America spoke
German and didn't want to become Americanised. It was only the two
World Wars which made them decide to shed their Germanness.
A hundred years ago, German was to the USA what Spanish is today.
vj...@biostrategist.com
The Greek government does in fact think this, but if you look at the
numbers, non-ghetto offspring of immigrants shed this. In the 1980s,
Papandreou had the effect on Greeks born in the USA that Hitler had on
German Americans in the 1940s: it made them shed their ethnicity.
In <gpo71v02qbl22qicb...@4ax.com> by Alexander Arnakis
<alexande...@verizon.net> on Thu, 02 Jan 2003 07:04:31 GMT we perused:
*+-that the Greek Establishment thinks of the Greek diaspora as colonists
*+--- agents of influence in their host countries. For this to be true,
*+-they have to keep their Greek identity intact.
vj...@biostrategist.com
on 02 Jan 2003 04:53:48 GMT we perused:
*+-a new reality, isn't it? Of course, it isn't just American; we see it in
*+-Canada and Latin America and Australia. But the great
Nope. The Kanuks and Ozzies aren't much of countries, they believe in
multiculturalism. (Mind you, just listen to the Greek liturgy praying
for "Greek Nation and American People" - they refuse to believe we are
a country, just a collection of ethnicites.) But the Kanuks and Ozzies,
still have a colonial mentality and will end up like Lebanon in thw 1970s.
*+-instead more than 30% of the young Filipinos marry non-Filipinos.
The rate for Greeks, Jews and Asians in the USA is 50% intermarriage.
The most educated groups are 50%, but the least educated ethnicities,
like the Hispanics, are 20%. The supposed 3 million Greeks in the USA
are 90% of mixed heritage.
*+-No one is immune from assimilative immigration these days. Everyone is
*+-marrying everyone!
Indeed, see above. The more successful you are in the USA< he more
likely you are to intermarry.
vj...@biostrategist.com
Arizona/Indiana listserver to a bishop and he sent me back a letter
protesting that Jefferson & al would disagree and went on about how
the USA was based on Greek ideals. Indeed, the very first overseas
expedition of the USA, against Lybia's Barbary Pirates, was aided only
by some Greek seamen, quite remarkable given that at the time Greece
was still under the Turkish yolk.
Was it Emerson or Thoreau who wrote a poem about a Greek
immigrant? Here's a really demonstrative story. When I was on campus
for my 10th reunion, Columbia's own curator/librarian told me how an
ancestor of that Greek immigrant (immigrant in poem was a Columbia
student) was a Greek diplomat about to retire. The diplomat contacted
the librarian in order to research his ancestor mentioned in the poem.
About that same time, I sat at the dinner honoring visiting Patr
Dimitrios next to a man who used to manage "Athens Bank" the Wall
Street entity which merged into Atlantic Bank. He told me a rather
remarkable story of his ancestry. In the 1790s one of his ancestors
from Greece came to America, married a woman of Scottish-AmerIndian
stock, and went back to Greece, only to have this man return (I
believe his name was Nicas). So the Greeks never signed on the
assimilative immigration compact, although, ironically, they always
expected their colonial subjects to assimilate or "Hellenise". That,
too is part of the problem, USA, Rome, Russia, Greece, all subscribe
to the notion of "Assimilative Universal Citisenship", except here,
the two identical notions collide with one another.
Another thing to look at is South Italy: In the 700s many
Slavs overran Greece, even the Peloponese. Many "western" texts
therefore consider Greece (wrongly) Slavified. But the Slavs were
repelled and the Greeks from Italy returned. I find it incredible,
that after TWENTY YEARS in Italy, as refuges, they RETURNED to Greece!
Of course, it pretty much waters down the ideas about Southern Italy
being Greek or about Greece being Slav, which are promoted by those
reading history selectively; fortunately genetic testing is reminding
us of the facts.
In <MPG.187d915c2...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> by Dana Netherton
<neth...@juno.com> on Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:00:38 GMT we perused:
*+--- Dana, who got his bachelor's degree at St John's College
*+-Annapolis, and who knows very well how important Greece was
*+-to the formation of the Western culture (and who also likes
vj...@biostrategist.com
http://www.bartleby.com/185/a14.html
H.L. Mencken (1880-1956). The American Language. 1921.
10. Greek
I am informed by Mr. S. S. Lontos, editor of Atlantis, the Greek
newspaper published in New York, that Greek journalists and other
writers working in the United States try to avoid the use of
Americanisms in their writing, and that the same care is observed by
educated Greeks in conversation. But the masses of Greek immigrants
imitate the newcomers of all other races by adopting Americanisms
wholesale. In most cases the loan-words, as in Italian, undergo
changes. Thus, bill-of-fare becomes biloferi, pie changes to pay, sign
and shine to saina (there is no sh-sound in Greek), cream to creamy,
fruit-store to fruitaria, clams to clammess, steak to stecky, polish
to policy, hotel to otelli, stand to stanza, lease to lista, depot to
depos, car to carron (=Modern Greek, karron, a cart), picture to
pitsa, elevator and elevated to elevata, and so on. The Greeks suffer
linguistic confusion immediately they attempt English, for in Modern
Greek nay (spelled nai) means yes, P. M. indicates the hours before
noon, and the letter N stands for South. To make things even worse,
the Greek papoose means grandfather and mammie means grandmother. 1
So far as I know, no philological study of American Greek has been
made. Undoubtedly all the processes of decay that have been going on
in Greece itself for centuries will be hastened in this country.
Whenever English begins to influence another language it plays havoc
with the inflections. 2
Steve Hayes
<alexande...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:00:16 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)
>wrote:
>>
>>In South Africa, one reason that this didn't happen with Anglicans (as it did
>>in South America) was that they were missionary. They evangelised local people
>>who spoke a variety of languages. They established a local episcopate, and
>>thogh there were some with the disapora mentality who objected, eventually the
>>local church model prevailed (there is still a schismatic Anglican body called
>>"The Church of England in South Africa", but it is not in communion with the
>>Church of England).
>>
>That's odd. How can that be, when the Anglicans offer open communion
>to everyone? (At least the Episcopalians around here commune any
>baptized Christian.)
That is a fairly recent development - within the last 25 years or so.
And even today, the lcoser the other bodies come to Anglicanism, the more
difficult they find it to admit them to communion.
>>People with the expatriate/diaspora mentality end up with hyphenated names -
>>Anglo-Argentines, Greek Americans, Arab-Americans, African-Americans, Albanian
>>Americans etc.
>>
>It's a little more complicated than that. For example,
>African-Americans don't consider themselves expatriates from Africa,
>except in the loosest sense. (Actually, "African-American" is a polite
>synonym for "black" -- a white South African immigrating to the U.S.
>wouldn't be called "African-American.") These hyphenated names just as
>often denote simple origin as they do expatriate status.
I'm not an expert on it, but I get the impression that those who like to
regard themselves as African-American DO see themselves as diaspora, and they
even use the word.
There's one in soc.culture.african, who is busy tring to export the American
Kwanzaa festival to Africa. Kwanzaa is as American as Thanksgiving, and the
only people in Africa who might celebrate it would be expatriate Americans.
astron
"Dana Netherton" <neth...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.187da6f6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:00:16 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve
> (I lived in Finchley while I was studying in London.
What were you studying there ?
Watched
> a few Orthodox Jewish families walk past my windows, late
> Friday afternoons, heading for synagogue.)
>
> --
> (Mr) Dana Netherton
> Juno address is a spam dump. To reach me, e-mail:
> dana 1 netherton 2 net, where "1" = at, and "2" = dot
> --------
> I don't belong to an organized religion.
> I'm Eastern Orthodox.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 30/12/02
Alexander Arnakis
> Indeed, the very first overseas
>expedition of the USA, against Lybia's Barbary Pirates, was aided only
>by some Greek seamen, quite remarkable given that at the time Greece
>was still under the Turkish yoke.
>
It was a company of 38 Greek mercenaries, hired by Gen. William Eaton.
They were his most reliable troops, other than his 8 U.S. Marines. The
whole idea of the attack on Tripoli was based on leveraging local
opposition forces, in an exact precursor to what the U.S. did recently
in Afghanistan.
For details, see
http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/eaton/eatonbattle.html
Alexander Arnakis
>Here's soemthing amusing, from the 1920s
>http://www.bartleby.com/185/a14.html
>
><snipped>
This old immigrant Greek-American lingo is called "brouklika.."
It can get downright humorous. Examples:
cottage = "kotetsi" ("chicken coop" in Greek)
coffin = "kofini" (a large basket used in the harvesting of grapes)
don't worry = "min kaneis ghouri" (don't make a good-luck charm)
car = "karo" (a draycart)
.... and my favorite....
Christmas = "krisimes" (days of crisis)
++
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 13:40:17 -0500, ++ <arch...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> >....... In almost everyheritage type of Orthodoxy, you run into at least one
> individual who says "If you aren't [name a nationality], then why are you Orthodox?"
> They
> >don't seem to accept that Orthodoxy is the true Christian religion, but ask if
> >"there must be a father, a grandmother, something." Do they think so little of
> >their faith that if there is no genetic connection then why bother with such a
> >religion? Sometimes such individuals go even further "Did you once fall in love
> >with one of us?", assuming that only something strong and powerful like love or
> >strong and powerful like temporary lust could bind someone to the True Faith.
>
> Galina, let me turn this around and ask you -- if you have no genetic
> connection to "Macedonia," then why are you so enamored of
> "Macedonia"? It appears that your True Faith is not Orthodoxy, but a
> geopolitical entity known as the FYROM. Why else are you the one-woman
> cheering squad for it here?
I have never cheered for anything called fyrom. Additionally, I have no faith in
geopolitical entities - they are ephemeral. God is fro all time to all time, worthy of
faith.
Btw, I brought up a very real issue, one that you have difficulty confronting.
>
> >
> >For Orthodoxy, there need be no excuse. And to keep our Orthodoxy pure of
> >nationalism, pure of hatred, free from manipulation politically or socially, should
> >be a constant struggle.
>
> Pot calling the kettle black. The hypocrisy of this statement, coming
> from you, is mind-boggling.
I rather differ in your assessment but understand your desire to deflect from a topic
difficult for you to confront.
June R Harton
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3E133611...@erols.com...
Really nice Gail, except for the following falsehood...
> Orthodoxy has never been exclusive until just a decade or so ago. This is
not to
> say that there weren't people who had a problem with their faith. In
almost every
> heritage type of Orthodoxy, you run into at least one individual who says
"If you
> aren't [Greek, Romanian, Serb, Russian, Ukrainian, Macedonian, Bulgarian,
> Belorussian, Carpathorussian, Moldovan, etc.], then why are you Orthodox?"
Obviously Macedonian is Greek of actual Macedonia northern Greece
(refer the Orthodox bible) and the Macedonian you are referring to above
is West Bulgarian of Fyrom.
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm
And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
That's more like it , Gail! Then you will concur with the following and
cease in future to pretend that the West Bulgarians of Fyrom are
"Macedonians"
and pretending that the ancient Greek Macedonian heritage belongs to them:
Infowolf1
>On 31 Dec 2002 07:55:53 GMT, cun...@aol.com (Cunneen) wrote:
>>
>>That's an awful denunciation of Orthodoxy! "Incidentally, their Orthodoxy"
>--
>>is that all it was for them, incidental???
>>
>In a word, yes. Very few Greeks are serious about religion -- any
>religion. Greece today is an essentially secular country, with
>adequate lip service being paid to the "prevailing" Orthodox religion.
>If you study history, you know that this is the same attitude
>exhibited by the ancient Greeks, who were fairly cynical about their
>pagan gods, endowing them with all the human foibles.
>
>The attitude of most Greeks (at least the ones that I know) is that
>monasteries make very good substitutes for lunatic asylums!
Then it follows that these Greeks who feel this way, even if they
attend church and take the Eucharist every week, are not in
fact Orthodox anyway. They are already apostate.
There is a saying among evangelicals:
Being in a church does not make you a Christian, any more than
being in a garage makes you a car.
Infowolf1
>is what the debate about the role of the Church is all about. How can
>the Greek identity be maintained in parallel with the American one?
And my take on this is that since the role of the church properly
is about souls not ethnicity, it follows that people who think in
these terms are barely Christian if at all. One cannot always say
whether someone is secretly apostate or not, but the overall
picture is not a good one.
Neitehr is such a lack of feeling for God in church a mere
post WW I attitude - maybe it is in terms of being out in the open
about it, but the violence and dishonesty and immorality of men
who claimed to be Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant shows their
faith was largely in name only.
for instance, in the early Islamic expansion wars, there were some
women who were confronted with Greek soldiers who had defeated their
husbands and brothers the Moslems
who had run.
These men demanded sex, and at first tried to talk them into
not resisting but it was clear they would rape them. One woman rallied
the others to sieze sticks and clubs and fought them off, then meanshile
their men had got their act back together and came and killed the Greeks.
St. Paul says to the entire Corinthian community not just
some monks, "But now I have written unto you not to keep
company, if any that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous,
or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an
one no not to eat.
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without, do not
ye judge them that are within?
but them that are without God judgeth. "
I corinthians 5:11-13 first
part of 13, now note very carefully the last part of vs. 13, to show that
this is a mandate for excommunication not merely not going to
dinner at a person's home:
"THEREFORE PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES
THAT WICKED PERSON."
I have read an excuse for keeping such as accepted members
of the church based on the parable of the wheat and the tares.
But the problem is, that Jesus explained the parable as this, that
the field both were sown in was the world, not the church. Obviously
the wheat were the believers, and therefore the church. The
field itself is not the church.
Dana Netherton
(astron) said ...
>
> "Dana Netherton" <neth...@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.187da6f6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:00:16 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve
>
> > (I lived in Finchley while I was studying in London.
>
>
> What were you studying there ?
Ecclesiastical History (at King's College London). This was
in my "Episcopalian period" (which lasted 25 years, btw).
I focused on modern history, and on Anglican liturgical
history: specifically, on the changes in Anglican
eucharistic practice in the 20th century ... from very
infrequent communion to weekly general communion ... and
their influence upon the liturgical revisions that began in
the 1950s (and whose first results were published and used
in the 1960s). In the Church of England, of course (sources
about Episcopalian events were very meager in England).
Steve Hayes
>Ecclesiastical History (at King's College London). This was
>in my "Episcopalian period" (which lasted 25 years, btw).
When were you there?
Did you know Wim Zwalf?
astron
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:49:02 +1100, ast...@texas.com.us
> (astron) said ...
> >
> > "Dana Netherton" <neth...@juno.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.187da6f6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > > On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:00:16 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve
> >
> > > (I lived in Finchley while I was studying in London.
> >
> >
> > What were you studying there ?
>
> Ecclesiastical History (at King's College London). This was
> in my "Episcopalian period" (which lasted 25 years, btw).
>
> I focused on modern history, and on Anglican liturgical
> history: specifically, on the changes in Anglican
> eucharistic practice in the 20th century ... from very
> infrequent communion to weekly general communion ... and
> their influence upon the liturgical revisions that began in
> the 1950s (and whose first results were published and used
> in the 1960s). In the Church of England, of course (sources
> about Episcopalian events were very meager in England).
>
Sounds enlightening and interesting .
BTW , do the Episcopalians in the US use the "filioque" ? Many Anglicans
here
do not --- which surprised me in speaking to the Anglican Archbishop of
Sydney ( Conservative ) .
I assumed that since Henry VIII removed his Church from Catholicism it
would follow the "filioque" .
Dana Netherton
Hayes) said ...
> On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 04:59:18 GMT, Dana Netherton <neth...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Ecclesiastical History (at King's College London). This was
> >in my "Episcopalian period" (which lasted 25 years, btw).
>
> When were you there?
>
> Did you know Wim Zwalf?
1982-86. The name doesn't ring a bell. :-)
Dana Netherton
>
> "Dana Netherton" <neth...@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.18817659f...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:49:02 +1100, ast...@texas.com.us
> > (astron) said ...
> > >
> > > "Dana Netherton" <neth...@juno.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.187da6f6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 06:00:16 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve
> > >
> > > > (I lived in Finchley while I was studying in London.
> > >
> > >
> > > What were you studying there ?
> >
> > Ecclesiastical History (at King's College London). This was
> > in my "Episcopalian period" (which lasted 25 years, btw).
> >
> > I focused on modern history, and on Anglican liturgical
> > history: specifically, on the changes in Anglican
> > eucharistic practice in the 20th century ... from very
> > infrequent communion to weekly general communion ... and
> > their influence upon the liturgical revisions that began in
> > the 1950s (and whose first results were published and used
> > in the 1960s). In the Church of England, of course (sources
> > about Episcopalian events were very meager in England).
> >
>
> Sounds enlightening and interesting .
It was a blast, and I was sorry that I had to come back to
the States. :-)
> BTW , do the Episcopalians in the US use the "filioque" ? Many Anglicans
> here do not --- which surprised me in speaking to the Anglican Archbishop of
> Sydney ( Conservative ) .
>
> I assumed that since Henry VIII removed his Church from Catholicism it
> would follow the "filioque" .
Dunno about Australia, but ...
The US Episcopal church's current Prayer Book (voted OK in
1976 and ratified in 1979) contains the filioque, as has
every Prayer Book since the first Episcopal Prayer Book in
1790 (and every English Prayer Book since the first one in
1549), but it's more-or-less "understood" at the parish
level to be "optional". Them as wants to say it, does ...
them as doesn't ... doesn't.
In my 25 years, I never attended an Episcopal service where
the Creed was said at which most people did not say the
filioque. I know, because I omitted it myself, from my very
earliest days in the Episc Church. And therefore (given
everyone else's practice) developed the habit of waiting a
beat or two for the other folks to clear their throats of
those extra three words (in English) before continuing, with
them, in the rest of the Creed.
One of the very small (but very welcome) "reliefs" of
becoming Orthodox: my practice WRT the filioque no longer
makes me unusual during the Creed. :-)
I understand that there was debate about including the
filioque in the 1979 Prayer Book. The draft book, presented
to the 1976 General Convention, omitted it. (I just
confirmed this by checking my copy.)
Presumably it was put back in by the General Convention,
presumably because most Anglicans who have an opinion on the
matter (and that is not all Anglicans of course, by any
means!) continue to believe that the theology behind the
filioque clause is true and correct. I seem to recall
hearing that it had been omitted from the draft prayer book
as a mark of courtesy toward the Orthodox, not out of
serious theological "shift" among the authors or editors of
the book. If (as seems likely) there was no real
theological support for the change, then it would seem
reasonable to drop the change. That said, it seems mildly
surprising to find Anglicans favoring theological truth over
courtesy, in their official capacity as ecclesiastical
decision-makers!
But this is all speculation based on vague memories on my
part. The official commentary on the 1979 Prayer Book does
not explain the decision. (Again, I just confirmed this by
checking my copy.)
Steve Hayes
>On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:20:05 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve
>Hayes) said ...
>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 04:59:18 GMT, Dana Netherton <neth...@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Ecclesiastical History (at King's College London). This was
>> >in my "Episcopalian period" (which lasted 25 years, btw).
>>
>> When were you there?
>>
>> Did you know Wim Zwalf?
>
>1982-86. The name doesn't ring a bell. :-)
OK, he would have been before your time then.