On the Holy Trinity
nick cobb
"Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this
purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea,
in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him,
having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding
Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will
prove."
Justin Martyr,First Apology,13:(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:166-167
"[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand
to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all
things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and
heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy
Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen."
Martyrdom of Polycarp 14(A.D. 157),in ANF,1:42
"For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the
accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand
should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him
were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom
and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also
He speaks, saying, 'Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;' He
taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the
pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,20:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,1:487-488
"And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out
of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place,
and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by
whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For
he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in
need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own
bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all
things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by
Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle'
(arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him.
He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and
power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them
spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the
prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of
God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with
Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared
the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the
earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.' And Moses, who lived
many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an
instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' "
Theophilus of Antioch,To Autolycus,II:10(c.A.D. 181),in ANF,II:97-98
"In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the
Father suffered,God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching
they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have
done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the
Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is
one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it
is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who
proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom
nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into
the Virgin, and to have been born of her--being both Man and God, the
Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of
Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried,
according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the
Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the
Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent
also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy
Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe
in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of
faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before
any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of
yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks
all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our
new-fangled Praxeas."
Tertullian,Against Praxeas,2(post A.D. 213),in ANF,III:598
"Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by
it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are
inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is
said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son
one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other.
This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as
every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in
such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and
the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the
Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of
the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that
the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by
division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is
not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the
mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son
is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: My
Father is greater than I.' In the Psalm His inferiority is described as
being a little lower than the angels.' Thus the Father is distinct from
the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one,
and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who
is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom
the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this
expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a
division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the
Godhead); for He says, I will pray the Father, and He shall send you
another Comforter. ... even the Spirit of truth,' thus making the
Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also
distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the
Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of
the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that
they have the distinct names of Father and San amount to a declaration
that they are distinct in personality? For, of course, all things will
be what their names represent them to be; and what they are and ever
will be, that will they be called; and the distinction indicated by the
names does not at all admit of any confusion, because there is none in
the things which they designate. "Yes is yes, and no is no; for what is
more than these, cometh of evil."
Tertullian,Against Praxeas,9(post A.D. 213),in ANF,III:603-604
"[T]he statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be
understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it
is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of
temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are
not included in it are to be measured by times and ages."
Origen,First Principles,4:28(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:377
""Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and
destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine
Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partitive subsistences
and god-heads three. I am told that some among you who are catechists
and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are
diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius's opinions; for he
blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and the Father the Son,
but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Monad
into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For
it must needs be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is
united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one
as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Triad be
gathered up and brought together. For it is the doctrine of the
presumptuous Marcion, to sever and divide the Divine Monarchy into three
origins,--a devil's teaching, not that of Christ's true disciples and
lovers of the Saviour's lessons, For they know well that a Triad is
preached by divine Scripture, but that neither Old Testament nor New
preaches three Gods. Equally must one censure those who hold the: Son to
be a work, and consider that the Lord has come into being, as one of
things which really came to be; whereas the divine oracles witness to a
generation suitable to Him and becoming, but not to any fashioning or
making. A blasphemy then is it, not ordinary, but even the highest, to
say that the Lord is in any sort a handiwork. For if He came to be Son,
once He was not; but He was always, if (that is) He be in the Father, as
He says Himself, and if the Christ be Word and Wisdom and Power (which,
as ye know, divine Scripture says), and these attributes be powers of
God. If then the Son came into being, once these attributes were not;
consequently there was a time, when God was without them; which is most
absurd. And why say more on these points to you, men full of the Spirit
and well aware of the absurdities which come to view from saying that
the Son is a work? Not attending, as I consider, to this circumstance,
the authors of this opinion have entirely missed the truth, in
explaining, contrary to the sense of divine and prophetic Scripture in
the passage, the words, 'The Lord created me a beginning of His ways
unto His works .' For the sense of He created, as ye know, is not one,
for we must understand 'He created' in this place, as 'He set over the
works made by Him,' that is, mode by the Son Himself.' And 'He created'
here must not be taken for 'made,' for creating differs from making. 'Is
not He thy Father that hath bought thee? hath He not made thee and
created thee?' says Moses in his great song in Deuteronomy. And one may
Say to them, O reckless men, is He a work, who is 'the First-born of
every creature, who is born from the womb before the morning star,' who
said, as Wisdom, 'Before all the hills He begets me?' And in many
passages of the divine oracles is the Son said to have been s generated,
but nowhere to have come into being; which manifestly convicts those of
misconception about the Lord's generation, who presume to call His
divine and ineffable generation a making. Neither then may we divide
into three Godheads the wonderful and divine Monad; nor disparage with
the name of 'work' the dignity and exceeding majesty of the Lord; but we
must believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Christ Jesus His Son,
and in the Holy Ghost, and hold that to the God of the universe the Word
is united. For 'I,' says He, 'and the Father are one; 'and, 'I in the
Father and the Father in Me.' For thus both the Divine Triad, and the
holy preaching of the Monarchy, will be preserved."
Pope Dionysius[regn 260-268],to Dionysius of Alexandria,fragment in
Athanasius' Nicene Definition 26(A.D. 262),in NPNF2,IV:167-168
"Now the person in each declares the independent being and subsistence.
But divinity is the property of the Father; and whenever the divinity of
these three is spoken of as one, testimony is borne that the property of
the Father belongs also to the Son and the Spirit: wherefore, if the
divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is
established, and the unity is not dissevered; and the oneness Which is
naturally the Father's is also acknowledged to be the Son's and the
Spirit's."
Gregory the Wonderworker(Thaumaturgus),Sectional Confession of
Faith,8(A.D. 270),in ANF,VI:42
"For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is
one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also,
with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three
Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreate, without end, and to
which there is no successor. For neither will the Father ever cease to
be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy
Ghost to be what in substance and personality He is."
Methodius,Oration on the Palms,4(A.D. 305),in ANF,VI:396-397
"We believe in one God, the Father almighty,maker of all things, visible
and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God,begotten
from the Father,only-begotten,that is,from the substance of the
Father,God from God,light from light,true God from true God,begotten,not
made,of one substance with the Father...And in the Holy Spirit."
Creed of Nicea(A.D. 325),in ECC,215-216
" Let no one therefore separate the Old from the New Testament; let no
one say that the Spirit in the former is one, and in the latter another;
since thus he offends against the Holy Ghost Himself, who with the
Father and the Son together is honoured, and at the time of Holy Baptism
is included with them in the Holy Trinity. For the Only-begotten Son of
God said plainly to the Apostles, Go ye, and make disciples of all the
nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Ghost. Our hope is in Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost. We
preach not three God; let the Marcionites be silenced; but with the Holy
Ghost through One Son, we preach One God. The Faith is indivisible; the
worship inseparable. We neither separate the Holy Trinity, like some;
nor do we as Sabellius work confusion. But we know according to
godliness One Father, who sent His Son to be our Saviour we know One
Son, who promised that He would send the Comforter from the Father; we
know the Holy Ghost, who spake in the Prophets, and who on the day of
Pentecost descended on the Apostles in the form of fiery tongues, here,
in Jerusalem, in the Upper Church of the Apostles..."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,16:4(c.A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:116
"I can see no limit to my venture of speaking concerning God in terms
more precise than He Himself has used. He has assigned the
Names--Father, Son and Holy Ghost,--which are our information of the
Divine nature. Words cannot express or feeling embrace or reason
apprehend the re suits of enquiry carried further; all is ineffable,
unattainable, incomprehensible. Language is exhausted by the magnitude
of the theme, the splendour of its effulgence blinds the gazing eye, the
intellect cannot compass its boundless extent....When Israel hears that
its God is one, and that no second god is likened, that men may deem him
God, to God Who is God's Son, the revelation means that God the Father
and God the Son are One altogether, not by confusion of Person but by
unity of substance. For the prophet forbids us, because God the Son is
God, to liken Him to some second deity....But I cannot describe Him,
Whose pleas for me I cannot describe. As in the revelation that Thy
Only-begotten was born of Thee before times eternal, when we cease to
struggle with ambiguities of language and difficulties of thought, the
one certainty of His birth remains; so I hold fast in my consciousness
the truth that Thy Holy Spirit is from Thee and through Him, although I
cannot by my intellect comprehend it."
Hilary of Poiters,On the Trinity,2:5,4:42,12:56(A.D. 359),in
NPNF2,IX:53,84,233
"[T]hey ought to confess that the Father is God, the Son God, and the
Holy Ghost God, as they have been taught by the divine words, and by
those who have understood them in their highest sense. Against those who
cast it in our teeth that we are Tritheists, let it be answered that we
confess one God not in number but in nature. For everything which is
called one in number is not one absolutely, nor yet simple in nature;
but God is universally confessed to be simple and not composite."
Basil,To the Caesareans,Epistle 8 (A.D. 360),in NPNF2,VIII:116
"For this Synod of Nicaea is in truth a proscription of every heresy. It
also upsets those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and call Him a
Creature. For the Fathers, after speaking of the faith in the Son,
straightway added, 'And we believe in the Holy Ghost,' in order that by
confessing perfectly and fully the faith in the Holy Trinity they might
make known the exact form of the Faith of Christ, and the teaching of
the Catholic Church. For it is made clear both among you and among all,
and no Christian can have a doubtful mind on the point, that our faith
is not in the Creature, but in one God, Father Almighty, maker of all
things visible and invisible: and in one Lord Jesus Christ His
Only-begotten Son, and in one Holy Ghost; one God. known in the holy and
perfect Trinity, baptized into which, and in it united to the Deity, we
believe that we have also inherited the kingdom of the heavens, in
Christ Jesus our Lord, hrough whom to the Father be the glory and the
power for ever and ever. Amen."
Athanasius,To the Bishops in Africa,11(A.D. 372),in NPNF2,IV:492
"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from
the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and
glorified."
Epiphanius,Creed(A.D. 374),in NP,8
"The Substance of the Trinity is, so to say, a common Essence in that
which is distinct, an incomprehensible, ineffable Substance. We hold the
distinction, not the confusion of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a
distinction without separation; a distinction without plurality; and
thus we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as each existing from
and to eternity in this divine and wonderful Mystery: not in two
Fathers, nor in two Sons, nor in two Spirits. For there is one God, the
Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord, Jesus
Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.' There is One born of the
Father, the Lord Jesus, and therefore He is the Only-begotten. There is
also One Holy Spirit,' as the same Apostle hath said. So we believe,so
we read, so we hold. We know the fact of distinction, we know nothing of
the hidden mysteries; we pry not into the causes, but keep the outward
signs vouchsafed unto us."
Ambrose,On the Christian Faith,8:92(A.D. 380),in NPNF2,X:274
"We believe in one God,the Father,almighty,maker of heaven and earth,of
all things visible and invisible;And in one Lord Jesus Christ,the
only-begotten Son of God,begotten from the Father before all ages,light
from light,true God from true God,begotten not made,of one substance
with the Father,through Whom all things came into existence...And in the
Holy Spirit,the Lord and life-giver,Who proceeds from the Father, Who
with the Father and the Son is together worshipped and together
glorified..."
Creed of Constantinople(A.D. 381),in ECC,297-298
"For neither the centurion nor that poor woman who for twelve years was
wasting away with a bloody flux, had believed in the mysteries of the
Trinity, for these were revealed to the Apostles after the resurrection
of Christ; so that the faith of such as believe in the mystery of the
Trinity might have its due preeminence: but it was her singleness of
mind and her devotion to her God that met with our Lord's approval: 'For
she said within herself, If I do but touch his garment, I shall be made
whole.' This is the faith which our Lord said was seldom found. This is
the faith which even in the case of those who believe aright is hard to
find in perfection. 'According to your faith, be it done unto you,' says
God. I do not, indeed, like the sound of those words. For if it be done
unto me according to my faith, I shall perish. And yet I certainly
believe in God the Father, I believe in God the Son, and I believe in
God the Holy Ghost. I believe in one God; nevertheless, I would not have
it done unto me according to my faith."
Jerome,Against Luciferians,15(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VI:327
"But they[ie. Catholics] worship the Father and the Son and the Holy
Ghost, One Godhead; God the Father, God the Son and (do not be angry)
God the Holy Ghost, One Nature in Three Personalities, intellectual,
perfect, Self-existent, numerically separate, but not separate in Godhead."
Gregory of Nazianzen,Against the Arians and concerning himself,Oration
33:16(ante A.D. 389),in NPNF2,VII:334
"Seest thou that he implies that there is no difference in the gifts of
the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? Not confounding the
Persons, God forbid! but declaring the equal honor of the Essence. For
that which the Spirit bestows, this he saith that God also works; this,
that the Son likewise ordains and grants. Yet surely if the one were
inferior to the other, or the other to it, he would not have thus set it
down nor would this have been his way of consoling the person who was
vexed."
Chrysostom John,Homily on 1st Corinthians,29:4(c.A.D. 392),in NPNF1,XII:171
"Since, then, in the case of those who are regenerate from death to
eternal life, it is through the Holy Trinity that the life-giving power
is bestowed on those who with faith are deemed worthy of the grace, and
in like manner the grace is imperfect, if any one, whichever it be, of
the names of the Holy Trinity be omitted in the saving baptism--for the
sacrament of regeneration is not completed in the Son and the Father
alone without the Spirit: nor is the perfect boon of life imparted to
Baptism in the Father and the Spirit, if the name of the Son be
suppressed: nor is the grace of that Resurrection accomplished in the
Father and the Son, if the Spirit be left out :--for this reason we rest
all our hope, and the persuasion of the salvation of our souls, upon the
three Persons, recognized by these names; and we believe in the Father
of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Fountain of life, and in the
Only-begotten Son of the Father, Who is the Author of life, as saith the
Apostle, and in the Holy Spirit of God, concerning Whom the Lord hath
spoken, 'It is the Spirit that quickeneth". And since on us who have
been redeemed from death the grace of immortality is bestowed, as we
have said, through faith in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy
Spirit, guided by these we believe that nothing servile, nothing
created, nothing unworthy of the majesty of the Father is to be
associated in thought with the Holy Trinity; since, I say, our life is
one which comes to us by faith in the Holy Trinity, taking its rise from
the God of all, flowing through the Son, and working in us by the Holy
Spirit. Having, then, this full assurance, we are baptized as we were
commanded, and we believe as we are baptized, and we hold as we believe;
so that with one accord our baptism, our faith, and our ascription of
praise are to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. But if
any one makes mention of two or three Gods, or of three God-heads, let
him be accursed. And if any, following the perversion of Arius, says
that the Son or the Holy Spirit were produced from things that are not,
let him be accursed. But as many as walk by the rule of truth and
acknowledge the three Persons, devoutly recognized in Their several
properties, and believe that there is one Godhead, one goodness, one
rule, one authority and power, and neither make void the supremacy of
the Sole-sovereignty, nor fall away into polytheism, nor confound the
Persons, nor make up the Holy Trinity of heterogeneous and unlike
elements, but in simplicity receive the doctrine of the faith, grounding
all their hope of salvation upon the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit,--these according to our judgment are of the same mind as we, and
with them we also trust to have part in the Lord."
Gregory of Nyssa,To the City of Sebasteia,Epistle 2 (ante A.D. 394),in
NPNF2,V:528-529
"All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and
New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me
concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to
the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the
Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an
indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but
one God: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the
Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He
who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the
Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son,
Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the
unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin
Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, andand roseburied,, again the
third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that
this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was
baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the
Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,'
the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of
fire,' but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from
heaven, Thou art my Son,' whether when He was baptized by John, or when
the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice
sounded, saying, I have both glorified it,and will glorify it again;'
but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although
the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible,
so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith."
Augustine,On the Trinity,I:4,7(A.D. 416),in NPNF1,III:20
"But after him the schism of Sabellius burst forth out of reaction
against the above mentioned heresy, and as he declared that there was no
distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, he impiously
confounded, as far as was possible, the Persons, and failed to
distinguish the holy and ineffable Trinity. Next after him whom we have
mentioned there followed the blasphemy of Arian perversity, which, in
order to avoid the appearance of confounding the Sacred Persons,
declared that there were different and dissimilar substances in the
Trinity."
John Cassian,The Incarnation of Christ,2(A.D. 430),in NPNF2,XI:551-552
"In God there is one substance, but three Persons; in Christ two
substances, but one Person. In the Trinity, another and another Person,
not another and another substance (distinct Persons, not distinct
substances)...Because there is one Person of the Father, another of the
Son, another of the Holy Ghost; but yet there is not another and another
nature (distinct natures) but one and the same nature."
Vincent of Lerins,Commonitory,37(ante A.D. 450),in NPNF2,XI:140
"But although, dearly-beloved, the actual form of the thing done was
exceeding wonderful, and undoubtedly in that exultant chorus of all
human languages the Majesty of the Holy Spirit was present, yet no one
must think that His Divine substance appeared in what was seen with
bodily eyes. For His Nature, which is invisible and shared in common
with the Father and the Son, showed the character of His gift and work
by the outward sign that pleased Him, but kept His essential property
within His own Godhead: because human sight can no more perceive the
Holy Ghost than it can the Father or the Son. For in the Divine Trinity
nothing is unlike or unequal, and all that can be thought concerning Its
substance admits of no diversity either in power or glory or eternity.
And while in the property of each Person the Father is one, the Son is
another, and the Holy Ghost is another, yet the Godhead is not distinct
and different; for whilst the Son is the Only begotten of the Father,
the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, not in the way
that every creature is the creature of the Father and the Son, but as
living and having power with Both, and eternally subsisting of That
Which is the Father and the Son."
Pope Leo the Great(regn 440-461),Sermon 77:2 (ante A.D. 461),in
NPNF2,XII:190
"Or, if any one should perhaps think that this is done out of veneration
for the supreme Trinity, neither so is there any objection to immersing
the person to be baptized in the water once, since, there being one
substance in three subsistences, it cannot be in any way reprehensible
to immerse the infant in baptism either thrice or once, seeing that by
three immersions the Trinity of persons, and in one the singleness of
the Divinity may be denoted."
Pope Gregory the Great(regn A.D. 590-604),To Leander Bishop of
Hispalis,Letter 43(A.D. 591),in NPNF2,XII:88
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Great stuff on the Holy Trinity, I have a copy of
Rubelev's Icon of The Holy Trinity on the wall.
Why don't you post it on an Islamic website,
rather than on a site where most believe in The
Holy Trinity?
Jim
Tell me if I am wrong when I claim the Holy
Orthodox Church believes in the Holy Trinity?
nick cobb
Church is "THE" original Christian church. The original Christian
families are now being murdered in Lebanon.
Please, go ahead and post this wherever you like!
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
nick cobb wrote:
> Of course the Orthodox Church believes in the Holy Trinity. The Orthodox
> Church is "THE" original Christian church. The original Christian
> families are now being murdered in Lebanon.
>
with Israel, Islamic Fascists murdered him and a civil
war broke out and the Christians of Lebanon lost, thus
their fear of trying to disarm Hezbollah which a UN
resolution asks for.
Please tell me what you think of Islamic sharia
law saying Christians are dhimmis? You forgot
to answer.
Viva Karl the Hammer,
Jim
Isa 62:1 - For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace,
Alexander Arnakis
>
> Great stuff on the Holy Trinity, I have a copy of
> Rubelev's Icon of The Holy Trinity on the wall.
An icon of the Trinity would of necessity include God the Father.
Orthodox iconography generally avoids trying to portray God the
Father. The human form applies only to God the Son (the Incarnation).
(The Holy Spirit is usually shown as an allegorical dove.)
Anyway, icons of the Holy Trinity, for that reason, would be
considered semi-heretical.
nick cobb
nick cobb
a man on his right and a dove is theologically incorrect. Although these
icons are trying to show what happened at Christ's Baptism, it cannot be
depicted in "a picture."
God the Father is pure Spirit and cannot be seen - period. The Holy
Spirit is not a dove. This is why Rublev picked the scene of the visit
of the Three Men (angels) at the Oak of Mamre to depict the Holy
Trinity. Quite possibly, it was!
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>Icons depicting the Father as an old man seated in heaven and Christ as
>a man on his right and a dove is theologically incorrect. Although these
>icons are trying to show what happened at Christ's Baptism, it cannot be
>depicted in "a picture."
>
>God the Father is pure Spirit and cannot be seen - period. The Holy
>Spirit is not a dove. This is why Rublev picked the scene of the visit
>of the Three Men (angels) at the Oak of Mamre to depict the Holy
>Trinity. Quite possibly, it was!
>
>nick cobb wrote:
>> Wrong again! Read Rublov.
>>
Nick, I don't understand what you're trying to say. In this post, you
are agreeing with me, while in your earlier post you said I was "wrong
again."
What I was saying was that an icon of the Holy Trinity including God
the Father wouldn't be Orthodox. (Since God the Father can't be
depicted in human form, or any form for that matter.)
The relationship between an icon depicting three angels, and the Holy
Trinity, escapes me.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:55:11 GMT, nick cobb <ni...@nospamsnet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Icons depicting the Father as an old man seated in heaven and Christ as
> >a man on his right and a dove is theologically incorrect. Although these
> >icons are trying to show what happened at Christ's Baptism, it cannot be
> >depicted in "a picture."
> >
> >God the Father is pure Spirit and cannot be seen - period. The Holy
> >Spirit is not a dove. This is why Rublev picked the scene of the visit
> >of the Three Men (angels) at the Oak of Mamre to depict the Holy
> >Trinity. Quite possibly, it was!
> >
> >nick cobb wrote:
> >> Wrong again! Read Rublov.
> >>
The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
Mystery of the Trinity.
Jim
Alexander Arnakis
>
>The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
>
>It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
>but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
>
>It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
>
>The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
>Mystery of the Trinity.
>
surrounding the concept of the Trinity? To call it an icon of the
Trinity sounds misleading at best.
OK, here's a general question about the Trinity: The one
(monotheistic) God has many aspects. Why stop at the "magic" number of
three? You could just as easily, like the Hindus, say that God has
10,000 -- or an infinite number -- of Persons or iterations. A
pantheist would say that each grain of sand in the universe is an
iteration of God. In human terms, we can say that each person is an
avatar of God. Thus, there's nothing qualitatively unique about Jesus
as Son of God. We're *all* Children of God -- some, like Jesus, are
spiritually closer than others to the Godhead.
Stephen Adams
>On 5 Aug 2006 12:13:00 -0700, jwshe...@satx.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
>>
>>It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
>>but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
>>
>>It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
>>
>>The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
>>Mystery of the Trinity.
>>
>So it's not an icon of the Trinity itself, but of an allegorical event
>surrounding the concept of the Trinity? To call it an icon of the
>Trinity sounds misleading at best.
>
>OK, here's a general question about the Trinity: The one
>(monotheistic) God has many aspects. Why stop at the "magic" number of
>three?
Because that is how many were revealed...
-Stephen
--
Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
malchu...@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Mt 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Jim
nick cobb
to Abraham." "And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre..."
This is also the passage where the Lord is going to Sodom & Gomorrah to
destroy these towns. Why? "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah
is great and their sin is very grave..." According to this, unnatural
sex acts between woman & woman, man & man and animals is in the eyes of
the Lord, "a very grave sin." Worthy of complete destruction!
Alexander Arnakis
>Alexander Arnakis <inv...@address.none> writes:
>>
>>OK, here's a general question about the Trinity: The one
>>(monotheistic) God has many aspects. Why stop at the "magic" number of
>>three?
>
>Because that is how many were revealed...
>
I think it's both simpler and more complicated than that. (To fall
back on revelation is not really an answer.) The number three was not
chosen at random. Here's a good explanation:
"If you want a small number that significance is attached to, the
traditional choice is three. If you have two things, it implies two
opposing forces in balance, such as good vs. evil, male vs. female,
day vs. night, etc. Even though that is often used, frequently, you
don't want to convey that concept. If there are four things, that's
too many. You are less likely to know them all completely or visualize
them all at once. Thus three is a common number. A perfect example is
the Trinity of Christianity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
What is the Holy Ghost? It never appears in any other context. The
Holy Ghost was invented purely to make the number three. If all you
had was the Father and the Son, it would imply that they were two
opposing forces."
http://www.geocities.com/jefferywinkler/greekmythtriplets.html
And this:
"Nontrinitarian Christians have long contended that the doctrine of
the Trinity is a prime example of Christian borrowing from pagan
sources. According to this view, a simpler idea of God was lost very
early in the history of the Church, through accommodation to pagan
ideas, and the "incomprehensible" doctrine of the Trinity took its
place. As evidence of this process, a comparison is often drawn
between the Trinity and notions of a divine triad, found in pagan
religions and Hinduism. Hinduism has a triad, i.e., Trimurti.
"As far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in
threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in
Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after
Christ. After the death of the apostles, many nontrinitarians contend
that these pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity. (First and
second century Christian writings reflect a certain belief that Jesus
was one with God the Father, but anti-Trinitarians contend it was at
this point that the nature of the oneness evolved from pervasive
coexistence to identity.)
"Some find a direct link between the doctrine of the Trinity, and the
Egyptian theologians of Alexandria, for example. They suggest that
Alexandrian theology, with its strong emphasis on the deity of Christ,
was an intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and
Christianity.
"The Church is charged with adopting these pagan tenets, invented by
the Egyptians and adapted to Christian thinking by means of Greek
philosophy. As evidence of this, critics of the doctrine point to the
widely acknowledged synthesis of Christianity with platonic
philosophy, which is evident in Trinitarian formulas that appeared by
the end of the third century. Catholic doctrine became firmly rooted
in the soil of Hellenism; and thus an essentially pagan idea was
forcibly imposed on the churches beginning with the Constantinian
period. At the same time, neo-Platonic trinities, such as that of the
One, the Nous and the Soul, are not a trinity of consubstantial equals
as in orthodox Christianity."
mikejames
that you know of.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
I have found that most PC types don't really
believe the Creeds. Why don't they be honest
and join the Unitarians where they would be
able to state what they really believe?
Jim
The neo-orthodox can accept all of
the Apostles Cereed accept under
Pontius Pilate.
Paul VI of Rome
mikejames
Enjoy your little ivory tower where you can look down on everyone and
judge them.
Stephen Adams
>On 5 Aug 2006 21:41:42 GMT, Stephen Adams <ada...@no.spam> wrote:
>
>>Alexander Arnakis <inv...@address.none> writes:
>>>
>>>OK, here's a general question about the Trinity: The one
>>>(monotheistic) God has many aspects. Why stop at the "magic" number of
>>>three?
>>
>>Because that is how many were revealed...
>>
>I think it's both simpler and more complicated than that. (To fall
>back on revelation is not really an answer.)
Except that it is. Certainly, you gave practical answers. But the problem
remains, and always was, dealing with the following:
The Father is revealed as God
The Son is revealed as God
The Holy Spirit is revealed as God
There is one God.
However we reach our conclusions, that is the issue that must be dealt with.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Projection noted.
Jim
If the Episcopal Church wants to
change its religion, I see no reason
to change mine.
aggreen
nick cobb wrote:
> Of course the Orthodox Church believes in the Holy Trinity. The Orthodox
> Church is "THE" original Christian church. The original Christian
> families are now being murdered in Lebanon.
***The descendents of the original Christian families are in Jerusalem
where the Church was "founded" by Christ at Pentecost. Followers of
Christ were first called "Christian" in the ancient city of Antioch
which is in Turkey.
***Very few Christians have been inadvertently killed by Israel. Most
of the Lebanese dead, around 600 civilians, are Islamic.
aggreen
nick cobb wrote:
> Icons depicting the Father as an old man seated in heaven and Christ as
> a man on his right and a dove is theologically incorrect. Although these
> icons are trying to show what happened at Christ's Baptism, it cannot be
> depicted in "a picture."
>
> God the Father is pure Spirit and cannot be seen - period. The Holy
> Spirit is not a dove. This is why Rublev picked the scene of the visit
> of the Three Men (angels) at the Oak of Mamre to depict the Holy
> Trinity. Quite possibly, it was!
***The main Russian icon on the ceiling of the OCA parish in
Binghamton, NY --Dormition of the Virgin Mary -- shows an angry God
(face fully shown) sitting on His throne in the clouds, lightening
bolts emanating from within the clouds. He is surrounded by the
Cherubim and Seraphim (that are not looking upon God's face).
***I have an old Russian icon of God the Father and God the Son
standing side by side. The faces are identical. God the Father has
white hair and beard; God the Son has brown hair and beard.
Al
aggreen
Andrei Rublev.
Andrei Rublev was born circa 1360 (presumably). According to the
anonymous author of the The Lives of Russian Saints, a book compiled in
the early eighteenth century, Andrei Rublev died on January 29, 1430,
and was buried at the Andronikov Monastery in Moscow.
Rublev's name has long become legend. Already in the fifteenth century
icons painted by Rublev were considered worth their weight in gold and
were much-coveted collectors' items. So great was Rublev's fame, that
the Church Council, held in Moscow in 1551, thus prescribed in its
statutes the official canon for the correct representation of the
Trinity: "... to paint from ancient models, as painted by the Greek
painters and as painted by Andrei Rublev..." No wonder numerous works
were described to his brush, including such icons that were created by
other painters even many years after Rublev's time. Twentieth century
historians of art found that very few of his works ascribed in the
chronicles, The Lives of Russian Saints and other sources to Andrei
Rublev's brush have survived. Still extant among Rublev's more or less
authentic works are individual icons of the festival tier in the
iconostasis of the Annunciation Cathedral in Moscow's Kremlin,
individual icons and frescoes of the Cathedral of the Assumption of
Vladimir and The Old Testament Trinity from the Holy Trinity Cathedral
at the St.Sergius Trinity Monastery. Now some of his works can be
viewed in both the Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow and the Russian Museum
in St. Petersburg.
St.Sergius and his monastery.
Rublev's name is associated with the history of the Moscow artistic
school. Many of his works, just as those of his disciples and
followers, originated in Moscow or in towns and monasteries around it.
In Moscow, Rublev's clients were Prince Dmitry Donskoy's sons Vasily
and Yury, and also the disciples and followers of St.Sergius of
Radonezh. The life of St.Sergius, the founder of the Holy Trinity
Monastery, was considered an ideal by contemporaries of Rublev. The
Monastery of the Holy Trinity was a place where ideas of fraternity,
calm, love to god and spiritual self-improvement were expressed. As
early as in the fourteenth century the popularity of the Holy Trinity
was based not only on its religious content, but also on tragic
conditions of Russian political and social life. Those were times of
constant feudal strife, which took a toll of thousands of lives and
systematically weaken Russian principalities. The foremost thinkers of
the time realized how deadly destructive the feuds were, making Russia
an easy prey to enemies. It was clear that the nation has to put an end
to internal strife and to throw off the Mongol Yoke. Mingling facts of
real life with concepts borrowed from the Gospels and the writings of
the Holy Fathers, the medieval mentality embodied these ideas through
complex and abstract speculations in the image of the Trinity. Being
undivided, the Trinity denounced strife and called for togetherness;
being individualized, it condemned oppression and called for
liberation.
The fifteenth-century Muscovite, Epiphanius the Wise wrote in the first
biography of St.Sergius that the monastery was founded so that
"contemplation of the Holy Trinity would conquer the hateful fear of
this world's dissensions". St.Sergius of Radonezh, who dedicated the
monastery to the Holy Trinity, did not restrict himself to mere prayer
in seclusion. St.Sergius had given every possible backing to Prince
Dmitry Donskoy's policy towards the unification of the fighting Russian
principalities into a single state and towards delivering the Russian
people from the hateful Mongol Yoke. His policy became reality
following the first significant victory of Russian army in the battle
on Kulikovo Field (September, 1380). Because the river Don flows nearby
from the Kulikovo Field, the prince Dmitry was titled Donskoy after
this battle. Obviously, much in Rublev's beliefs conformed to the
beliefs of St.Sergius. This observation leads to an understanding of
the painter's philosophy.
The Icon of the Holy Trinity.
In the medieval Russia, all newly-painted icons were coated with a
layer of a special drying oil to protect the painting against
mechanical damage and impart greater intensity to the colors.
Unfortunately, with time oil darkened, thereby darkening the initial
colors of icons and eventually turning absolutely black. For this
reason, the icon had to be renewed, and the Trinity was painted over
with fresh paints within its faintly discernible contours. This
procedure was repeated several times. Towards the turn of the twentieth
century there remained nothing of Rublev's masterpiece apart from the
rapturous recollections of antiquity. The first attempt to remove later
accretions from the fifteenth-century icon was made in 1905. At the end
of 1918 restoration work was continued, the surround was removed and it
is only since then that the icon's appearance has become close to the
original. We say "close to" because in these long five centuries the
icon's painting turned out to be damaged: the gold background was lost,
the tree was painted anew within the old contours, the top layers of
paint were washed off, even the ground was occasionally disturbed and
cracks appeared, the outlines of the Angels' heads were partly altered.
All this notwithstanding, even in its present state the Trinity remains
one of the best extant Russian icons.
The subject of the icon is based on the Biblical story about the visit
by three Angels to the Prophet Abraham and his wife Sarah. According to
the theological interpretations whose authors associated the Old
Testament events with events of the New Testament, these Angels were
the three Persons of the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son and the
Holy Spirit. Though revealing direct iconographic affinity with this
kind of representations, the Trinity as painted by Rublev, has its own
features which carry a new quality and a new content. In Rublev's icon
we observe for the first time all the three Angels shown equal. This
icon alone conformed to the strict rules of the orthodox doctrine of
the Trinity.
Meantime, some historians of art believe that Rublev expressed in the
icon the need for and benefit of love, of a union based on the trust of
one individual in another. Whereas Rublev's Trinity is void of any
noticeable energy of earthly life, of corporeality of forms and
external manifestations of love, equally absent from it is that cold
soaring of the spirit, so remote from humans. The image determines the
subtle struck balance between soul and spirit, the corporeal and the
imponderable, endless and immortal sojourn in the heavens. When
speaking of Rublev's work, different authors describe the Trinity's
Angels as quiet, gentle, anxious, sorrowful, and the mood permeating
the icon as detached, meditative, contemplative, intimate.
Depicting the Trinity as an indivisible essence without beginning and
without end, infinite and eternal, Rublev chose repetitive light and
airy movement as the leitmotif of the composition. The Angels'
attitudes and meaningful gestures, their inclinations are amazing in
their dissimilarity while being almost identical, so that the icon
leaves the clear impression of a seemingly many-voice talk.
It is not fortuitous that we perceive Andrei Rublev's Trinity as the
highest achievement of Russian art. Crowning a long artistic career of
a single master, it is also an embodiment of the creative thought of
several generations. Just as any other medieval artist, Rublev highly
valued tradition and collective effort. All the best features of early
fifteenth-century Russian culture merged in the Trinity: a form of
philosophical generalization, outwordly abstract, but with an amazingly
concrete content, a capacity to express through iconographic images the
national character, and artistic skills attaining to the pinnacles of
world art.
Credits: the text is loosely based on G.Vzdornov's article in Ref.4,
pp.205-212. In some places, text was either changed or rearranged.
aggreen
http://www.holy-transfiguration.org/library_en/lord_trinity_rublev.html
Al
Alexander Arnakis
>
>***The main Russian icon on the ceiling of the OCA parish in
>Binghamton, NY --Dormition of the Virgin Mary -- shows an angry God
>(face fully shown) sitting on His throne in the clouds, lightening
>bolts emanating from within the clouds. He is surrounded by the
>Cherubim and Seraphim (that are not looking upon God's face).
>
>***I have an old Russian icon of God the Father and God the Son
>standing side by side. The faces are identical. God the Father has
>white hair and beard; God the Son has brown hair and beard.
>
Father are typically found in the Russian tradition, rather than the
Greek tradition.
From http://www.goholycross.org/studies/studies_icons.html --
"The Basics of Iconography
"God the Father can not be depicted"
And from http://www.unicorne.org/ORTHODOXY/avril2003/icons.htm --
"Question:
"I have received a large 19th century Russian icon depicting God the
Father. The Holy Spirit in the usual form of a dove is also shown.
However, Christos is excluded. I have never before seen this
particular representation. Is this unusual?
"Answer:
"Dr. Alexander Roman al...@unicorne.org
"The icon is unusual in a few ways.
"First of all, traditional Orthodox iconographic rules state that God
the Father is NOT to be represented in any way. Therefore, the
representation of the Father as the "Ancient of Days" is not
permitted, even though iconographers do take their liberties and do
write such icons."
This from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity_Icon
"Holy Trinity Icon
"The Holy Trinity is an important subject of iconographic
representation in Eastern Orthodox Christianity .
"There are two different types of Holy Trinity icons: the Old
Testament Trinity and the New Testament Trinity.
"Old Testament Trinity
"The Old Testament Trinity subject is best known from the famous icon
painted by St Andrey Rublev (created sometime between 1408 and 1425).
"This icon is actually more properly called the "Hospitality of
Abraham" (see Genesis 18). The appearance of the three angels to
Abraham at Mamre was a type of the Holy Trinity, not an appearance of
the Holy Trinity itself. There is only one hypostasis, the Divine
Logos, Jesus Christ in the form of an angel and two angels.
"New Testament Trinity
"The New Testament Trinity depicts the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit distinctly. The Father is painted as a white-bearded man with a
very special type of nimbus (it contains two rombic figures: one is
red, another is blue). The Holy Spirit is shown as a white dove with a
halo of the same type as Father has. The dove may be placed between
the Father and the Son (if they sit near each other at the same
level), or the dove may be shown in a beam of light from the mouth of
the Father, as if the Holy Spirit was just sent by Him.
"Christ may be shown either as an adult, (in this case he is sitting
right from His Father) or as an infant (in this case he is sitting on
His Father's knees). The name of this type of icon is also called
Paternity.
"It is interesting that in Eastern Orthodoxy, depictions of God the
Father were prohibited for a long period of time. However, when the
movement of antitrinitrarians became strong in medieval Novgorod, a
new type of iconography appeared: Spas Vethiy Denmi (The Savior Old
with Days). In this type of icon, Jesus Christ is depicted as an old
white-haired man. The basis of this iconography is that Jesus is
saying that He and the Father are one. This very image of God the
Father is used in New Testament Trinity icons.
"The New Testament Trinity subject may be actually introduced into any
icon where the Christ is shown: for this purpose the painter needs
only to add the Father and the dove at the upper side of the icon.
"The New Testament Trinity is not popular in official Orthodoxy in
Russia nowadays, though it was popular in Novgorod earlier. Among
Popovtsy Old Believers this type of an icon is very widespread, since
the New Testament Trinity is depicted above any crucifixion icon
(without the Son, since he is on the Cross in this case). The New
Testament Trinity also appears on the wonder-working icon of Our Lady
of Kursk (also without the Son, since in this case Mary holds him on
her knees)."
Detailed discussion at http://catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1761
See also
http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm