Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GS
nick cobb wrote:
>
> Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
> hand-counting of ballots.
>
> ALL Americans should be up in arms. This woman has decided to in effect
> stop the complete and proper counting of ALL votes in the Florida race
> for the Presidency. In effect, throwing the election and causing the
> "Bush Boys" to go down in history as stealing the Presidential election
> of 2000!
item 2
>
> Maybe this is why women can never be let into serious positions of
> authority in the True Church!
what does voting have to do with women in the Church?
Wayne
"SergienkoL" <sergi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001114213957...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> >Maybe this is why women can never be let into serious positions of
> >authority in the True Church!
> >
>
> oh...and BTW... why don't you just grow up?
Barros
sergi...@aol.com wrote on 11/14/00 6:39 PM:
> All Americans??? What is this, a call for further centralization and a
> socialist state? Yeah, lets all jihad against Florida where a duly elected
> state government has exercised it's rights.... Lets all piss and moan and
> litigate until "our candidate" wins.... BTW...a teacher in Palm Beach gave
> that
> ballot to her kids and all of em could figure it out... and don't tell me that
> some blue haired granny who is sharp enough to do 25 bingo cards at once can't
> figure a ballot.....
>
>
Hi, Lisa (?)
Actually, I wouldn't mind if ballots were counted until Dec. 17th (or
longer if nec.). In my opinion, this part of the process concerns
determining as accurately as possible the "will of the people". Our voting
is not only, in my opinion, a right but a responsibility. And in each
particular election, I prefer to consider not just the policy proposals for
the next 4 years, but the effects on the next 400 if you will... if we
believe that this democracy is valuable, we should be certain to act in a
manner that will help to sustain it; if we consider it not unreasonable that
some people should die to sustain this democracy, shouldn't we make some
effort to at least count their votes? I find it deeply objectionable that
winners are announced based on a percentage of votes rather than accurate
counts. It is perhaps remiss that Fla. did not re-evaluate its particular
voting process when 15,000 ballots were discarded 4 years ago (can't
remember which county). In a different thread I mentioned that of 2 of our
children, one found the butterfly ballot confusing. And in case it matters,
in my opinion, at this point the identity of the winning candidate is
unimportant...
Thanks,
A.T.
GS
This time is was 80 thousand discarded. Says something not so nice
about the individuals' vote counting.
In a different thread I mentioned that of 2 of our
> children, one found the butterfly ballot confusing. And in case it matters,
> in my opinion, at this point the identity of the winning candidate is
> unimportant...
>
> Thanks,
> A.T.
I suggest the following:
1. Complete elimination of the Electoral College. Don't need it in
this literate age, even for the illiterate. Should the electoral
College be maintain (to counterbalance the effect of large cities and
states as opposed to representing more sectors and areas of society),
the electors should be divided according to the popular vote. Thus a
state 2/3 Democratic in the vote should send 2/3 of its electors to
represent the Democratic candidate, and 1/3 to the represent the
Republics. The concept of "winner takes all" should be avoided when it
comes into conflict with the popular vote.
2. ONE automatic voting system with provisions for changing one's vote
while in the booth (last minute decisions), advertised, explained and
demonstrated in the print and televised media repeatedly in advance of
the vote. Local sites should be available to practice voting, also as a
reminder of the importance of voting, perhaps at a local city or county
library.
3. No announcements of the popular vote until all voting is complete.
This would be a complete moratorium on poll results going public before
the final votes are tallied.
4. Concurrent counting of absentee ballots with one system only for
absentee . Absentee ballots to be as ambiguous as possible and to be
sent in enough in advance of the election to be electronically entered
into the computerized system PRIOR to the popular vote.
5. A ban on exit polling
6. A responsible attitude on the part of networks not to air negative
campaign ads.
nick cobb
hand-counting of ballots.
ALL Americans should be up in arms. This woman has decided to in effect
stop the complete and proper counting of ALL votes in the Florida race
for the Presidency. In effect, throwing the election and causing the
"Bush Boys" to go down in history as stealing the Presidential election
of 2000!
Maybe this is why women can never be let into serious positions of
SergienkoL
socialist state? Yeah, lets all jihad against Florida where a duly elected
state government has exercised it's rights.... Lets all piss and moan and
litigate until "our candidate" wins.... BTW...a teacher in Palm Beach gave that
ballot to her kids and all of em could figure it out... and don't tell me that
some blue haired granny who is sharp enough to do 25 bingo cards at once can't
figure a ballot.....
SergienkoL
>authority in the True Church!
>
oh...and BTW... why don't you just grow up?
John Peters
nick cobb wrote in message <3A11EE60...@cris.com>...
>Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
>hand-counting of ballots.
Just like St. Katherine stopped the pagan philosophers and schemers of her
day, and no doubt she'll be martyred too.
BTW, is Jesse Jackson on the faculty of SVS these days?
John
John Peters
I wish to publically apologize for a low blow to Nick Cobb, Jesse Jackson
and SVS.
One I actually like reading on occasion, one I actually voted for, and one I
visit at least annually and support via their publishing efforts (guess
which is which?)
I also should know better than to respond to a thread ending with a
multitude of exclamation points.
John
Barros
Peters at hoodp...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 11/14/00 8:52 PM:
Thanks for settin' a fine example for goofs like ME !!!
Polichinello
GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Barros wrote:
> >
> > in article 20001114213914...@ng-co1.aol.com, SergienkoL
at
> > sergi...@aol.com wrote on 11/14/00 6:39 PM:
> >
and a
> > > socialist state? Yeah, lets all jihad against Florida where a duly
elected
> > > state government has exercised it's rights.... Lets all piss and
moan and
> > > litigate until "our candidate" wins.... BTW...a teacher in Palm
Beach gave
> > > that
> > > ballot to her kids and all of em could figure it out... and don't
tell me that
> > > some blue haired granny who is sharp enough to do 25 bingo cards
at once can't
> > > figure a ballot.....
> > >
> > >
Maine's system awards the state winner the two senate electoral votes,
then the two congressional electors go to whoever wins the districts.
Seems more equitable, while avoiding the dangers of majoritarianism.
>
> 2. ONE automatic voting system with provisions for changing one's
vote
> while in the booth (last minute decisions), advertised, explained and
> demonstrated in the print and televised media repeatedly in advance of
> the vote. Local sites should be available to practice voting, also as
a
> reminder of the importance of voting, perhaps at a local city or
county
> library.
Actually, they have all of these things. The voters in Florida were
allowed three do-overs. Many of the 19,000 votes in question were
discarded because of the do-over allowance.
> 3. No announcements of the popular vote until all voting is complete.
> This would be a complete moratorium on poll results going public
> before
> the final votes are tallied.
Impractical in this age of leakers.
> 4. Concurrent counting of absentee ballots with one system only for
> absentee . Absentee ballots to be as ambiguous as possible and to be
> sent in enough in advance of the election to be electronically entered
> into the computerized system PRIOR to the popular vote.
I would agree with that.
> 5. A ban on exit polling
Impractical. Constitutionally unenforceable, and someone will come up
with a way around.
> 6. A responsible attitude on the part of networks not to air negative
> campaign ads.
This would give way too much power to the media, not to mention it's an
infringement of free speech. As it is, they must run all campaign ads,
and that's the way it should be. What one group perceives as a "negative
ad" another group would see as criticism of a person's public record.
The media could, OTOH, analyze and dissect these ads, something they
failed to do fairly with the NAACP's blatantly partisan attack ad.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
--
http://www.houstonreview.com
Houston's Conservative News Source
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
nskov
"John Peters" <hoodp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4mnQ5.751$S43....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John: Nick Cobb, the ultra liberal, Clinton-loving, SVS graduate, never did
and never will speak for St. Vlad's. After all, even "The Reader" attended
SVS.
Polichinello
nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote:
> Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
> hand-counting of ballots.
>
> ALL Americans should be up in arms. This woman has decided to in
effect
> stop the complete and proper counting of ALL votes in the Florida race
> for the Presidency. In effect, throwing the election and causing the
> "Bush Boys" to go down in history as stealing the Presidential
election
> of 2000!
Please. The people in Palm Beach are down to manufacturing votes for
Gore by divining the intent of "pregnant chads" and dimples. We've
also had a number of ballot boxes left by "inexperienced poll workers"
suddenly showing up full of Gore votes. Partisan shenanigans are going
on on both sides.
Florida's state law reads that all returns "shall be" (not "may be", not
"it would be nice if," "SHALL BE") in by 5:00 p.m. on the Tuesday
following the election. It's not optional. Sec'y Harris is enforcing the
law as written. Those counties still counting need to submit reasons for
their delay, as is proper, for the onus is on them. Unless they can
prove machine malfunction, which the Palm Beach Cty head, Theresa Lapore
has denied, they don't have a good reason to go to these odd methods of
creating votes for their man.
> Maybe this is why women can never be let into serious positions of
> authority in the True Church!
Yeah, but they can be Senators from New York apparently, even if they've
never lived there.
Atsaves
1996 attended by the then autocratic Archbishop Spyridon of the GOA. They
nominated members to be elected to the Archdiocesan Council. The guys in
charge suddenly changed the rules, had the priests vote for one of their own
independent of any laity voting, then nominated two laity members and allowed
the priests to vote for them. When pointed out how contrary to their own
published rules that stunt was, the response was, no that's the way we're going
to do it, and we're running out of time anyway so don't waste our time by
demanding that we conduct this election correctly.
Women, Nick, had nothing to do with that nonsense!
Of course, Spyridon now is "retired" and on a "pension" (which rumor has it he
returns the checks uncashed because he feels them to be insufficient). The
consent of the governed was lost through a series of stunts like this, and
Spyridon paid the price for it in a humiliating fashion.
It sounds like the Bush Brothers already know the REAL outcome of that election
in Florida. That's why Georgie Boy is fighting tooth and nail against any
further recounts. If the machine can't read the ballot, then tough! The hell
with the voter, just don't count it!
Funny how Katherine Harris was a Bush Delegate at the GOP convention, but has
made no effort to recuse herself. Now I hear she's running to court to try to
avoid her court order of "exercising her discretion" about the hand counted
ballot totals that came in after her claimed statutory inflexible deadline. The
Florida Attorney General was one of the Florida Gore Campaign Chairmen, and he
won't recuse himself either and he comes up with a series of contradictory
opinions (of course!). Is there something about Florida and their ideas of
ethics and avoiding any appearances of impropriety that is different from the
rest of us?
Sorry, everyone who qualifies has a constitutional right to vote AND to have
that vote counted. If a machine spits it out or can't count it right, then
someone needs to pick up that ballot and count it, unless it is truly spoiled.
What is Georgie Boy going to if he's asked to raise his right hand and swear an
oath to support and defend the constitution as President of the United States?
Put a qualification on it about elections? Ask for a better definition of what
"support" and "defend" means? (Like Clinton's famous what is "is?"
The Bush Brothers wouldn't be fighting against it so much if they knew that
they would win. All campaigns canvass and poll watch during elections and on
election day. I certainly have worked on enough of them to know. The reports
from the field must not be so hot for them, otherwise they would be demanding
(no, actually shrieking for) a recount of the entire state, or letting the
recount happen. And considering the "home town" of Jeb advantage, I'm sure
that they had ample foot soldiers to canvass and poll watch on November 7th in
Florida. When the networks initially called Florida for Gore, the Bush
Brothers got on the phone to contest that call based on the information they
had! And the networks later reversed themselves! So consequently they try to
stop the complete election tabulation so that they can declare Georgie Boy the
victor, knowing that the final corrected totals will show him losing?
And someone should pound on their crack lawyers and fool female press person
over the noggin a few times so that they understand that there has only been
ONE election, not three, there have been two (and in some places three)
recounts of the ballots cast during the ONE election, with different results
each time, and the State of Florida is clearly incapable of counting those
ballots because the result would be a Gore victory.
These clowns make us in the Chicago area look like a bunch of choir boys at
election time! And that ain't so easy to do folks! Its nice to kick back for
a change and let everyone else take the heat over an election for a change!
And a Daley is leading the charge for doing the right thing about counting
votes, which is very ironic to us over here!
I pity the fool who finally wins this thing. It will be tough governing
without the consent of the governed. (Declaration of Independence Jeffersonian
Democracy principles tossed in for good measure.) And taking office under a
cloud or suspicion that the other guy actually may have won but for the
stopping of counting of ballots and getting a final, legitimate figure is not
something I would wish for.
And this is coming from a guy who voted for Bush in Illinois!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: nick cobb ni...@cris.com
Date: Tue, Nov 14, 2000 8:01 PM
Message-id: <3A11EE60...@cris.com>
Polichinello
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
[...]
> It sounds like the Bush Brothers already know the REAL outcome of that
> election in Florida. That's why Georgie Boy is fighting tooth and
> nail against any further recounts. If the machine can't read the
> ballot, then tough! The hell with the voter, just don't count it!
The problem is that we're not talking about looking at a simple mark or
a hole now, Louis. They're trying to divine intent from dimpled chads.
This in the hands of highly partisan Democratic officials.
> Funny how Katherine Harris was a Bush Delegate at the GOP convention,
> but has
> made no effort to recuse herself. Now I hear she's running to court
> to try to
> avoid her court order of "exercising her discretion" about the hand
> counted
> ballot totals that came in after her claimed statutory inflexible
> deadline.
Actually, the GOP is in court to stop hand recounts, which tamper with
and damage ballots. The ruling from Palm Beach added the discretion
proviso onto the law, which simply read the results "shall be" in at
5:00 today. Harris is following the letter of the law.
Further, Theresa Lapore, the infamous ballot lady, refused a hand
recount in a local race where the Republican lost by 13 votes because
the machine was not malfunctioning. If anyone is applying arbitrary
standards its the Palm Beach collective.
> The
> Florida Attorney General was one of the Florida Gore Campaign
Chairmen, and he
> won't recuse himself either and he comes up with a series of
contradictory
> opinions (of course!). Is there something about Florida and their
ideas of
> ethics and avoiding any appearances of impropriety that is different
from the
> rest of us?
Not really. Wisconsin, Oregon, Pennsylvania are reporting a host of
irregularities as well. The spoiled ballot conundrum plagues Cook County
also, they've lost some 100,000 ballots to double punching. The only
reason we're seeing what's happening in Florida is that the cameras are
focused on it.
> Sorry, everyone who qualifies has a constitutional right to vote AND
to have
> that vote counted. If a machine spits it out or can't count it right,
then
> someone needs to pick up that ballot and count it, unless it is truly
spoiled.
> What is Georgie Boy going to if he's asked to raise his right hand and
swear an
> oath to support and defend the constitution as President of the United
> States?
But there is nothing wrong with machines. Lapore admitted as much
herself. They provide an objective count with a lessened probability of
tampering.
> Put a qualification on it about elections? Ask for a better
definition of what
> "support" and "defend" means? (Like Clinton's famous what is "is?"
The Bush campaign isn't hiring marketers to create crowds, nor are they
stirring up racial antagonisms with some pet rent-a-rioter like Jesse
Jackson. They have followed the law and obeyed all court orders given
them.
> The Bush Brothers wouldn't be fighting against it so much if they knew
that
> they would win. All campaigns canvass and poll watch during elections
and on
> election day. I certainly have worked on enough of them to know. The
reports
> from the field must not be so hot for them, otherwise they would be
demanding
> (no, actually shrieking for) a recount of the entire state, or letting
the
> recount happen. And considering the "home town" of Jeb advantage, I'm
sure
> that they had ample foot soldiers to canvass and poll watch on
November 7th in
> Florida.
Even in such a situation you can't be everywhere at once. Bush may head
the state government, but in the counties involved the Democrats provide
the workers and the sheriff's assistants through patronage. And, in
fact,there have been several callouts of problems.
>When the networks initially called Florida for Gore, the
>Bush
> Brothers got on the phone to contest that call based on the
information they
> had! And the networks later reversed themselves! So consequently
they try to
> stop the complete election tabulation so that they can declare Georgie
Boy the
> victor, knowing that the final corrected totals will show him losing?
But the final tallies, and the corrected tally didn't show him losing.
He was ahead. The problem with the network call was 1) It was issued
before the polls closed in the panhandle (a central time zoned area) and
2) it failed to include enough Cubans in the math. The Bush campaign was
right in questioning the call. It was wrong.
> And someone should pound on their crack lawyers and fool female press
person
> over the noggin a few times so that they understand that there has
only been
> ONE election, not three, there have been two (and in some places
three)
> recounts of the ballots cast during the ONE election, with different
results
> each time, and the State of Florida is clearly incapable of counting
those
> ballots because the result would be a Gore victory.
Any recount will give you this result anywhere. Be it in Florida, Texas
or even Illinois. It always happens.
> These clowns make us in the Chicago area look like a bunch of choir
boys at
> election time! And that ain't so easy to do folks! Its nice to kick
back for
> a change and let everyone else take the heat over an election for a
change!
> And a Daley is leading the charge for doing the right thing about
counting
> votes, which is very ironic to us over here!
LOL. Daley is part of the band of thieves doing everything they can to
hijack the election through legal chicanery. He knows damn well what he
was doing when he singled out the Florida counties for a hand recount
which favored him. That the Bush campaign was too slow to call for their
own doesn't make his actions any more commendable or democratic. So now
Daley was counter-blocked by Florida state law, which law demands in
explicit terms that all returns be in by 5:00 yesterday.
Live by legal technicality, die by legal technicality.
> I pity the fool who finally wins this thing. It will be tough
governing
> without the consent of the governed. (Declaration of Independence
Jeffersonian
> Democracy principles tossed in for good measure.) And taking office
under a
> cloud or suspicion that the other guy actually may have won but for
the
> stopping of counting of ballots and getting a final, legitimate figure
is not
> something I would wish for.
>
> And this is coming from a guy who voted for Bush in Illinois!
[...]
I'm beginning to see the virtue of secession. :-(
Atsaves
interpreted that the voter was ready to punch the hole, but then changed his
mind. The "chad" must be perforated in part for the vote to count. As a
former election judge, I can tell you that inspecting ballots in such a fashion
is a major pain in the posterior glutemus maximus! Hard on the eyes too! We
used to average 750 voters in our precinct. If the machine registered less
than 700 votes for the highest office, based on 750 votes cast, we are
instructed to inspect the ballots on the spot to see if the machine screwed up
or if the voters truly intended to vote for no one (or in the alternative, vote
for both candidates for an office). We then look at the "chad" and arrive at a
decision and report how many ballots were handled in such a fashion, and
initial each ballot so inspected and counted so someone later could double
check on us through a formal recount. (That way they don't have to go through
several hundred thousand ballots, they limit it to the initialed ones!)
But what's this stuff in Florida about most ballots being counted in
centralized locations by machine only, and not by the election judges in the
precincts? Talk about potential for mischief!
Here, we count them in the precincts, sign off on the numbers we find, then we
drive them to the local county clerk and sign a receipt for them. If they need
to be recounted later on, they are done at the clerks' office. We don't leave
them behind, or let someone else stroll out the door with the ballot box(es)
with ballots not being counted yet! How neanderthal! How preposterous! No
wonder why they are having so much trouble counting! They only thing we leave
behind is the equipment that gets picked up the next day!
And that's compared to Cook County for crying out loud! Sheesh!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Polichinello crash_...@my-deja.com
Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 9:35 AM
Message-id: <8uuafp$9hi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <3A11EE60...@cris.com>,
nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote:
> Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
> hand-counting of ballots.
>
> ALL Americans should be up in arms. This woman has decided to in
effect
> stop the complete and proper counting of ALL votes in the Florida race
> for the Presidency. In effect, throwing the election and causing the
> "Bush Boys" to go down in history as stealing the Presidential
election
> of 2000!
Please. The people in Palm Beach are down to manufacturing votes for
Gore by divining the intent of "pregnant chads" and dimples. We've
also had a number of ballot boxes left by "inexperienced poll workers"
suddenly showing up full of Gore votes. Partisan shenanigans are going
on on both sides.
Florida's state law reads that all returns "shall be" (not "may be", not
"it would be nice if," "SHALL BE") in by 5:00 p.m. on the Tuesday
following the election. It's not optional. Sec'y Harris is enforcing the
law as written. Those counties still counting need to submit reasons for
their delay, as is proper, for the onus is on them. Unless they can
prove machine malfunction, which the Palm Beach Cty head, Theresa Lapore
has denied, they don't have a good reason to go to these odd methods of
creating votes for their man.
> Maybe this is why women can never be let into serious positions of
> authority in the True Church!
Yeah, but they can be Senators from New York apparently, even if they've
never lived there.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
Polichinello
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> In my state (Illinois) "dimples" don't count on punch cards as they
can also be
> interpreted that the voter was ready to punch the hole, but then
changed his
> mind.
But that's not what happened in Florida. A judge ordered dimpled ballots
to be considered. Further, in Pinellas County, election officials
punched through hanging chads on Gore ballots, but didn't do it for the
Bush ballots, thush a 417 vote gain.
This is all true. All of our voting equipment needs a serious update. We
shouldn't be using this technology.
However, in the counties in question, there were no machine errors, but
there has been partisan shenanigans. Broward county checked 3 precincts
and found no serious error, so they decided against a recount. In comes
the Gore goons to talk to the local pols and, surprise, surprise,
Broward county will recount yet again.
Of course, all of these counties want to turn in their results on the
20th, the first business day after the 17th, when the pro-Bush military
ballots will have come in. That way they know how many Gore ballots they
need to manufacture. This is why Florida and other states have these
deadlines for certification.
Barros
>
> I suggest the following:
>
> 1. Complete elimination of the Electoral College. Don't need it in
> this literate age, even for the illiterate. Should the electoral
> College be maintain (to counterbalance the effect of large cities and
> states as opposed to representing more sectors and areas of society),
> the electors should be divided according to the popular vote. Thus a
> state 2/3 Democratic in the vote should send 2/3 of its electors to
> represent the Democratic candidate, and 1/3 to the represent the
> Republics. The concept of "winner takes all" should be avoided when it
> comes into conflict with the popular vote.
looking at the comments concerning the 3 19th c. winners of the electoral
but not popular vote.
> 2. ONE automatic voting system with provisions for changing one's vote
> while in the booth (last minute decisions), advertised, explained and
> demonstrated in the print and televised media repeatedly in advance of
> the vote. Local sites should be available to practice voting, also as a
> reminder of the importance of voting, perhaps at a local city or county
> library.
>
years): it would be nice if there were easily accessable info on voting
protocols--idiot me didn't realise there was a 5 min. limit on voting
machine use in NC.
I def. think we need some standardized ballot --as I mentioned earlier,
this is a highly mobile society.
At least in NC, woulda appreciated instructions inside the voting booth.
And pens--I asked 4 times for a pen (in case I wound up w/ a write-in vote)
and was refused each time.
> 3. No announcements of the popular vote until all voting is complete.
> This would be a complete moratorium on poll results going public before
> the final votes are tallied.
at the same time nationwide, it seems such news might be less damaging..
> 4. Concurrent counting of absentee ballots with one system only for
> absentee . Absentee ballots to be as ambiguous as possible and to be
> sent in enough in advance of the election to be electronically entered
> into the computerized system PRIOR to the popular vote.
>
> 6. A responsible attitude on the part of networks not to air negative
> campaign ads.
Well, thats unlikely..
Thanks for responding w/ thoughts...we've now got 3 years to figure it out
;)
A.T.
frjohn
"nick cobb" <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:3A11EE60...@cris.com...
> Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
> hand-counting of ballots.
>
> ALL Americans should be up in arms.
I agree, we should be up in arms. Gore and the Democrats are trying to steal
the election buy phony hand recounts that give their people the opportunity
to assign votes to Gore on the basis of their personal interpretation of the
supposed intent of the voter who cast a flawed ballot. It is really very
simple, if someone is too stupid to read the directions and cast their vote
properly, they are too stupid to vote.
Unfortunately, Florida is not the only place where Gore and his people have
tried to steal this election. They illegally kept the polls open in
Democratic areas of Missouri several hours beyond the legal limit. Although
they did not steal enough votes to keep Bush from taking the state, they did
succeed in electing a dead man to the U.S. Senate. In Milwaukee, students
have admitted that they voted more than once. In the same town, Gore workers
were bribing homeless men to vote for Gore with cigarettes.
Here in Shreveport, Gore and his supporters have convinced the blacks that
if Bush wins they will have to go back to slavery. Gore supporters also
called homes and told people that if Bush is elected workers will lose their
right to overtime pay. Finally, all over the country, black churches
violated IRS rules and became involved in the effort to elect Gore.
Archpriest John W. Morris
Atsaves
"dimples" don't cut it in my state. As to tampering with ballots during a hand
count in Florida, I would find that extremely unlikely since it is being done
out in the open surrounded by camera men. What happened to the good old
fashioned smoke filled back rooms of yesteryear? And I see that Bush signed
into law in Texas hand counting in close elections? Is he for real or what?
Talk about ironic!
Everyone is putting way too much faith in those tally machines. The machines
help with the count, but they are not as accurrate as portrayed by the GOP.
Take it from someone who's been there. Spoiled ballots due to double punching
(I recall one instance where a voter obviously not a rocket scientist, punched
every single hole in every single race!) are a fact of life everywhere and I am
sure Florida has their fair share of them. If a portion of the chad is still
clinging, the ballot gets rejected or it runs through with some goofy tally
occurring. But counting ballots at central locations instead of at the
precinct? Too unwielding and subject to funny business!
The two major parties can and do cover all the precincts without too much of a
problem to get preliminary totals and an idea of voter turn out and who voted
and who did not. This is especially true in "targeted" areas by campaigns,
like the State of Florida! The campaigns know during the course of the day as
to turn out if it is heavy or light and know a preliminary vote total within a
half hour when the polling place closes when the initial ballots are fed
through the machine. They then go outside, whip out the cell phone and call
someone with the figures.
Don't sell the campaigns short as to this huge fight over the ballots in
Florida. Both sides KNOW what the results are, leading to the preposterous
situation where Gore's camp is fighting to get that result and the Bush camp is
fighting to not get that result. They KNOW, which is why they are fighting
tooth and nail there. They got preliminary numbers from their precinct
captains and pollwatchers, and they KNOW. That's why the Bush Boys called the
networks and complained during the early "Gore Wins" call for Florida. Their
numbers were different for a good reason.
In the past I was involved in two recounts in close races. At best the vote
totals changed by a handful of votes, I mean, like 5 or 6 votes out of 750 cast
(less than a half of one percent). Not 3 or 4% like what Florida pulled down
simply by rerunning ballots through machines the first time! For Gore to gain
something like 1,600 votes is preposterous and brings into question the system
of counting in Florida of ballots.
The exit polling of the networks may know more than they realize too,
especially in the Palm Beach area where that "butterfly" ballot exists. People
polled in certain precincts that said they voted for Gore should correspond
fairly closely to the vote totals (some people do fib to pollsters) and the
initial network call may actually reflect that. Again, the campaigns KNOW!
Bill Daley's actions prove this point, don't you think? And as you and the
rest of the world have discovered, the Daleys are not stupid people.
But I did enjoy seeing Jesse Jackson down there stirring things up. We in the
Chicago area are always glad to get rid of him for a while and share him with
the rest of the world!
But the million dollar question remains, why can't Florida get the stupid count
right? Sheesh!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Polichinello crash_...@my-deja.com
Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 2:45 PM
Message-id: <8uusld$qbt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Walkermonk
the rest of the country something?? We know him, and we don't want him.
Grace Walker Monk
Alexander Arnakis
>
>I pity the fool who finally wins this thing. It will be tough governing
>without the consent of the governed. (Declaration of Independence Jeffersonian
>Democracy principles tossed in for good measure.) And taking office under a
>cloud or suspicion that the other guy actually may have won but for the
>stopping of counting of ballots and getting a final, legitimate figure is not
>something I would wish for.
>
>And this is coming from a guy who voted for Bush in Illinois!
>
Whoever takes office, whether Bush or Gore, will be a caretaker
President for at least the next two years (or until a working majority
emerges in Congress).
This is not necessarily a bad thing, since the close results showed
that there is no consensus in the country for *any* of the policies
argued about by the candidates.
BTW, I too voted for Bush, although my wife Valerie voted for Gore on
the ground of "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic," and she didn't
want an alcoholic, non-drinking or otherwise, running the country.
She's seen quite a bit of the results of alcoholism.
The post-election behavior of *both* candidates leaves a lot to be
desired, although Gore appears to be more "Presidential" based on his
apparent mastery of the process. Bush didn't seem to realize that the
campaign isn't over until one candidate is actually inaugurated.
Alexander Arnakis
<crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> 4. Concurrent counting of absentee ballots with one system only for
>> absentee . Absentee ballots to be as ambiguous as possible and to be
>> sent in enough in advance of the election to be electronically entered
>> into the computerized system PRIOR to the popular vote.
>
>
ambiguous as possible"?? What are you two trying to do, make a mockery
of our elections?
[Just kidding.]
Alexander Arnakis
>Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
>hand-counting of ballots.
>
>Maybe this is why women can never be let into serious positions of
>authority in the True Church!
A non-sequitur if ever I saw one!
nick cobb
reject and there have been many.
Ms. Harris is trying to throw the election. There can be no fair election when
19,000 votes are arbitrarily dismissed!
This has nothing to do with Liberalism. It has everything to do with a fair
election with proper counting in Florida!
nskov wrote:
> "John Peters" <hoodp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:4mnQ5.751$S43....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
Polichinello
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
[...]
First of all, I never said the Daleys were stupid. Immoral, ruthless
and potentially evil, yes, but not stupid.
Secondly, the state recount law in Texas has some guidance, which
Florida does not. It was an improvement on a pretty vague situation we
had before. One much like Florida. Also, I wouldn't poke too much fun
at Florida, because any state will have all manner of irregularities
that don't come to the surface until a close election. Particularly as
Florida is now undergoing a nationwide rectal exam on prime-time TV.
I'm beginning to feel that Bush should probably concede the election
for the sake of the nation, depending on the military ballots. Don't
get me wrong; I feel that Al Gore is unquestionably the lowest form of
life on two legs, save maybe the Clintons, but the nation is already
perilously divided, and civil war may be an option in a generation if
things keep going this way. Not even Al Gore is worth that.
However, I think you may be overestimating much of the efficiency of
the campaigns intelligence gathering. Remember, it was the Gore people
who were screaming lawsuit until Saturday. They were more than unhappy
with their numbers then. It was only after a few very, very improbable
gains (I mean astronomically improbable gains!) in the mechanical
recount were made that their tone noticably changed. It's clear that
someone is playing with the ballots IMO. We've already had a report of
a supervisor doing just that in Pinellas county. Also the fact that the
counties are predicting their recounts will be finished the day after
the absentee ballots are reported doesn't exactly give me too much
confidence in their honesty. I know you have faith in all those
cameras, but the cameras, quite simply, can't be everywhere and can't
see everything, especially when the counties in question are under firm
Democratic control.
Also, I'm not sure you understand the problems with maintaining a watch
on an election in a state so varied. I know Illinois isn't exactly
monochrome, but Florida's a whole other country. Outside of Chicago and
E. St. Louis, it's fairly bland and whitebread. Florida's a lot
different. Much of the state speaks Spanish, some counties are Jewish,
others redneck, others predominantly black. Actually, take Chicago and
expand it into an area the size of Florida, and you see the problem. I
worked as a Republican poll watcher in South Texas (an 85% Democratic
region), and even with a popular Republican governor in the state, it
was just impossible to cover each and every station in the area. We
didn't have the people there, and it isn't so easy shipping them down
from Houston or Dallas on a Tuesday. When I look at the maps of Palm
Beach and Miami-Dade, I see a situation similar to the Rio Grande
Valley.
I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes, Mistake
One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for them,
and instead of asking for a time consuming hand recount for the entire
state, along with other states, they went to court. (The prospect of a
long interregnum would shaken Gore's support at that point when they
had the moral upper hand, and led to his eventual concession.) But in
insisting that the deadline be observed, so that hanky-panky is kept to
minium, Harris, in my view, is doing the right thing, and she's
observing the law of her state.
If the courts want to overturn it, fine. Have at it. It'll weaken Gore
all the more, which, for the sake of the country, is fine by me. It'll
tough as hell for Gore to go out and bomb someone in the name of
democracy when he owes his office to a court ruling.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
Polichinello
cons...@my-deja.com
>Well John, I'm not Clinton-loving, nor an ultra-liberal. "The Reader"
>was a reject and there have been many.
Sorry Nick... I have my MA from the seminary. Feel free to call and ask
if you choose not to believe me.
But you are right about one thing... there are many SVS grads who have
come into ROCOR!
--
Reader Constantine Wright (consta...@hotmail.com)
Joy of All Who Sorrow Church - Atlanta GA
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
http://constans_wright.tripod.com
Y2K
In article <s6e61tkoap89v2h95...@4ax.com>,
--
=============
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
~ Niels Bohr ~
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>I agree, we should be up in arms. Gore and the Democrats are trying to steal
>the election buy phony hand recounts that give their people the opportunity
>to assign votes to Gore on the basis of their personal interpretation of the
>supposed intent of the voter who cast a flawed ballot. It is really very
>simple, if someone is too stupid to read the directions and cast their vote
>properly, they are too stupid to vote.
>Unfortunately, Florida is not the only place where Gore and his people have
>tried to steal this election. They illegally kept the polls open in
>Democratic areas of Missouri several hours beyond the legal limit. Although
>they did not steal enough votes to keep Bush from taking the state, they did
>succeed in electing a dead man to the U.S. Senate. In Milwaukee, students
>have admitted that they voted more than once. In the same town, Gore workers
>were bribing homeless men to vote for Gore with cigarettes.
>Here in Shreveport, Gore and his supporters have convinced the blacks that
>if Bush wins they will have to go back to slavery. Gore supporters also
>called homes and told people that if Bush is elected workers will lose their
>right to overtime pay. Finally, all over the country, black churches
>violated IRS rules and became involved in the effort to elect Gore.
>
Hand recounts are nothing unusual in elections. These counts are being
done under the watchful eyes of observers from both parties, and there
have been no allegations of fraud in the actual recount.
In Missouri, the complaint was the opposite of what you say: that
polls in black areas of St. Louis were closed while there were still
people in line waiting to vote.
It was well known that a vote for Mel Carnahan was really a vote for
his wife -- people were not actually voting for "a dead man."
The idea of bribing homeless men with cigarettes, when you stop to
think about it, is preposterous. The homeless generally are not
registered voters.
Black people are not stupid. I'm sure none believed that they would go
back to slavery if Bush were elected. However, they correctly thought
that Gore would be more generous to them than Bush would be.
I too voted for Bush, but let's be fair about this.
Polichinello
I openly admit my bias and couldn't care less. It's not that I love the
GOP so much as I loathe the other party.
> Hand recounts are nothing unusual in elections. These counts are being
> done under the watchful eyes of observers from both parties, and there
> have been no allegations of fraud in the actual recount.
Actually, there are allegations of impropriety. The Pinellas county
supervisor punched through chads on the Gore ballot rendering 417 new
votes. The gains Gore made have been called as probable as 30 lightening
strikes.
> In Missouri, the complaint was the opposite of what you say: that
> polls in black areas of St. Louis were closed while there were still
> people in line waiting to vote.
The polls closing time was at 7:00. A partisan judge ordered them open
until 10:00, and then he was reversed 45 minutes later.
> It was well known that a vote for Mel Carnahan was really a vote for
> his wife -- people were not actually voting for "a dead man."
True, but the cynical use of the widow was fairly revolting.
> The idea of bribing homeless men with cigarettes, when you stop to
> think about it, is preposterous. The homeless generally are not
> registered voters.
In a lot of states you can register on the same day. They write you in
at the ballot box. It's part of these motor voter laws. This woman
was caught essentially red-handed doing just what Fr. John alleged.
> Black people are not stupid. I'm sure none believed that they would go
> back to slavery if Bush were elected. However, they correctly thought
> that Gore would be more generous to them than Bush would be.
>
> I too voted for Bush, but let's be fair about this.
With the ads run by the NAACP, you have to be suspicious though. There
was genuine hatred ginned up against Bush. That kind of tribalism is not
good. Particularly as Bush has done a lot to include minorities in the
GOP, and in Texas government. There's an us against them mentality
siezing hold of the country, and this is one of the most visible
manifestations.
There are other irregularities as well. Absentee military ballots were
sent bulk rate 4th class instead of first class, and after being cast
were delayed yet further by the post. In Philadelphia absentee ballots
were passed around black churches filled out under watchful eyes and
returned to proctors. God only knows how many non-citizens were given
ballots in addition to the millions hustled through by the politicized
INS.
However, all in all, I'm thinking Bush should look at conceding. Gore
will be severely weakened as president. He'll have to deal with Sen.
Clinton's ambitions and an opposition legislature. Also, Gore doesn't
have the talents of Bill Clinton, so he's most likely going to lose even
further seats in the mid-term election. If Bush hangs tight, he'll be in
a good spot to run again in 2004. (It's going to be rather difficult
after last night though.)
The only thing that galls me is that the Clintons are going to get away
with murder one more time. But, low-lifes that they are, they are not
worth ripping the country apart.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
--
http://www.houstonreview.com
Houston's Conservative News Source
Rob Osborn
I don't think that 19,000 ballets were arbitrarily dismissed. In fact, they
were discarded and the voters were allowed to re-cast their votes.
This is what I have heard through the media, anyway. Please don't forget
that 15,000 ballets were discarded from the same county and voting area in
1996. It seems that they have a history or botching their vote.
Peace
Rob
nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:3A1345AD...@cris.com...
frjohn
>
> Hand recounts are nothing unusual in elections. These counts are being
> done under the watchful eyes of observers from both parties, and there
> have been no allegations of fraud in the actual recount.
>
It is not really a question of a hand recount. I have no problem with a
hand recount if it is simply a matter of a hand recount of ballots are
clearly marked. Unfortunately, however Gore supporters are trying to find
every possible way to count a ballot for their candidate.
> The idea of bribing homeless men with cigarettes, when you stop to
> think about it, is preposterous. The homeless generally are not
> registered voters.
>
Apparantly in Wisconsin, a person can register to vote the day of the
election.
> Black people are not stupid. I'm sure none believed that they would go
> back to slavery if Bush were elected. However, they correctly thought
> that Gore would be more generous to them than Bush would be.
>
Unfortunately blacks have been victim of a well organized propaganda
campaign that has convinced many of them that if the Republicans win that
they will lose their freedom.
Fr. John W. Morris
evagr...@my-deja.com
I find your tirade a little puzzling, to say the least.
The point is quite simple, very simple, as simple as a prairie muffin
on a clean white plate.
Americans are, essentially, a bunch of overstuffed, obese, greedy,
moronic and self-obsessed couch potatoes whose only passions are
shopping, driving gas-guzzling SUV's and RV's, and toting military
rifles.
There hasn't been any, any, political debate worth even the flatulent
explosion of a field mouse in this country for years.
Americans can't think. The only thinking they do has to do with buying
and selling, the two primary cultural activities besides watching
boring TV shows and getting excited about men fighting over a turd
shaped object on New Year's day or hurtling and hitting a spit covered
ball during the summer or seeing overgrown tatooed black men fight over
a large bounceable pumpkin.
The political process in this country has deteriorated to an
advertising contest. Sound bites convey no thought, just emotion and
feeling.
There is no thought, no real debate, no thinking.
And, as long as this continues, your personal tirades about the evil
Democrats vs, virtuous Republicans, ( snark!), will continue to be
highly amusing and irrelevant and useless.
In article <8v0sbk$cql$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Hand recounts are nothing unusual in elections. These counts are
being
> > done under the watchful eyes of observers from both parties, and
there
> > have been no allegations of fraud in the actual recount.
>
> Actually, there are allegations of impropriety. The Pinellas county
> supervisor punched through chads on the Gore ballot rendering 417 new
> votes. The gains Gore made have been called as probable as 30
lightening
> strikes.
>
> > In Missouri, the complaint was the opposite of what you say: that
> > polls in black areas of St. Louis were closed while there were still
> > people in line waiting to vote.
>
> The polls closing time was at 7:00. A partisan judge ordered them open
> until 10:00, and then he was reversed 45 minutes later.
>
> > It was well known that a vote for Mel Carnahan was really a vote for
> > his wife -- people were not actually voting for "a dead man."
>
> True, but the cynical use of the widow was fairly revolting.
>
> > The idea of bribing homeless men with cigarettes, when you stop to
> > think about it, is preposterous. The homeless generally are not
> > registered voters.
>
> In a lot of states you can register on the same day. They write you in
> at the ballot box. It's part of these motor voter laws. This woman
> was caught essentially red-handed doing just what Fr. John alleged.
>
> > Black people are not stupid. I'm sure none believed that they would
go
> > back to slavery if Bush were elected. However, they correctly
thought
> > that Gore would be more generous to them than Bush would be.
> >
Polichinello
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
[...]
> Americans are, essentially, a bunch of overstuffed, obese, greedy,
> moronic and self-obsessed couch potatoes whose only passions are
> shopping, driving gas-guzzling SUV's and RV's, and toting military
> rifles.
Hey, Michel. You don't like it here?
Delta's ready when you are. ;)
Be sure to space your connections though.
I didn't characterize all Democrats as evil, only the Clintons and Gore.
I mince no words with this crew. If this election were between Bush and
say someone like Carter, it would be a much different story, but it
isn't. Gore is divider and a hater, and he's determined to use
factionalism to gain power, like some cheap two bit ceasar.
Whatever you want to say about the Republicans, they weren't the ones
who ordered bombings to save political careers. In my book, that renders
the current occupants of 1600 Pennsylvania evil. Not Hilter evil or
Stalin evil, but evil nonetheless.
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <8v10uv$h4p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Polichinello <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8v108e$g9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> [...]
> > Americans are, essentially, a bunch of overstuffed, obese, greedy,
> > moronic and self-obsessed couch potatoes whose only passions are
> > shopping, driving gas-guzzling SUV's and RV's, and toting military
> > rifles.
> [...]
>
> Hey, Michel. You don't like it here?
>
> Delta's ready when you are. ;)
>
> Be sure to space your connections though.
>
> I didn't characterize all Democrats as evil, only the Clintons and
Gore.
> I mince no words with this crew. If this election were between Bush
and
> say someone like Carter, it would be a much different story, but it
> isn't. Gore is divider and a hater, and he's determined to use
> factionalism to gain power, like some cheap two bit ceasar.
>
> Whatever you want to say about the Republicans, they weren't the ones
> who ordered bombings to save political careers. In my book, that
renders
> the current occupants of 1600 Pennsylvania evil. Not Hilter evil or
> Stalin evil, but evil nonetheless.
>
Polichinello
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Mr. Copold,
[...]
I assume you have more a response than this.
Atsaves
parts of Florida they are also trying to count "dimples" as punches in punch
cards. In Illinois when I acted as an election judge "dimples" were considered
too inconsistent to be considered the will of the voter (did he mean to punch
it through or did he start to then change his mind?) Lets all remember that
the "inventor" of this punch press process was on CNN last night admitting that
his system routinely undercounts votes if the "chad" is left dangling on the
card. So a hand count should be called for in those counties where some
obviously irregular voting numbers were generated (for example, the local
county commissioner receiving more votes than the presidential candidates). If
everyone stopped playing games, those hand counts can take place. But the GOP
is desperately trying to stop it and has not called for hand counts in areas
they traditionally do well, which leads me to believe that their reports from
their poll watchers and precinct workers have scared them into desperately
trying to stop the counting of votes. As I have said elsewhere on this thread,
THEY KNOW! If a hand count would have helped Bush get elected, they would be
shrieking louder than Bill Daley now.
As to "homeless voters," long, long, long time ago in Chicago (and I'm sure
elsewhere) clever precinct workers would arrange to register homeless voters
using a transient hotel address. Then on election day they would vote and
would be given a pack of cigarrettes or beer on the way out (and down the
street a bit). In reality, that is more difficult to pull off these days.
We have a scandal brewing now in Illinois (OK, that is a small play on words
but I'm no Fr. Kalisnikov!) where unlicensed truckers and drivers from out of
state moved into a certain hotel in suburban Chicago, then took the drivers
license exam after paying a small, shall we say illegal type of stipend, with
someone at the "Secretary of State" office, and "passed." There are allegedly
several thousand Illinois Drivers Licenses with the address of that hotel on
them now driving around. Those caught and forced to retake the test flunked in
huge numbers.
We should not fear a legitimate recount. Everyone must be sure who REALLY was
elected to be president of the USA.
Then we should kick Florida out of the Union! -:)
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: "frjohn" frj...@microgear.net
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 8:56 AM
Message-id: <8v0sk6$8mi$1...@news.asacomp.com>
>
> Hand recounts are nothing unusual in elections. These counts are being
> done under the watchful eyes of observers from both parties, and there
> have been no allegations of fraud in the actual recount.
>
It is not really a question of a hand recount. I have no problem with a
hand recount if it is simply a matter of a hand recount of ballots are
clearly marked. Unfortunately, however Gore supporters are trying to find
every possible way to count a ballot for their candidate.
> The idea of bribing homeless men with cigarettes, when you stop to
> think about it, is preposterous. The homeless generally are not
> registered voters.
>
Apparantly in Wisconsin, a person can register to vote the day of the
election.
> Black people are not stupid. I'm sure none believed that they would go
> back to slavery if Bush were elected. However, they correctly thought
> that Gore would be more generous to them than Bush would be.
>
Atsaves
But for someone who claims that his point is "as simple as a prairie muffin on
a clean white plate" (?) you sure came up with a less than simple answer!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: evagr...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 9:59 AM
Message-id: <8v108e$g9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Polichinello
doesn't tie. They settle those situations by dealing both candidate one
hand of five card poker. (No bets, or card exchanges, show what you
got.) The winner is the one with the higher hand.
One sheriff (I think) got into office with an Ace high flush.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
[...]
Atsaves
Not only is our election being decided by a bunch of incompetents in Florida
who cant count, read a ballot, perform a hand count, and want to end it before
everyone's vote is counted, . . .
But . . . . . (drum roll please!)
We are now totally dependent on the United States Post Office to deliver the
remaining absentee ballots in a timely fashion to these knuckleheads so those
votes can be miscounted too!
I say after this is all over with, we kick Florida out of the Union! -:)
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Polichinello crash_...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 8:52 AM
Message-id: <8v0sbk$cql$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
Atsaves
In Illinois, we rejected Jesse Jackson twice! We are always trying to ship him
out to stir up things whenever we can!
Problem is, everyone keeps sending him back to us! Maybe those little old
ladies in Palm Beach will think he's cute and keep him!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: walke...@aol.com (Walkermonk)
Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 6:50 PM
Message-id: <20001115195047...@ng-fr1.aol.com>
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <20001116132531...@ng-fk1.aol.com>,
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> Well! Someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!
You bet!
>
> But for someone who claims that his point is "as simple as a prairie
muffin on
> a clean white plate" (?)
You do know what a prairie muffin is?
you sure came up with a less than simple answer!
Of course. My rant has to do with the fact that politics in this
country is in terrible shape.
There's no discussion, none, outside of the mouthing of platitudes.
Mr. Copold and I, ( no geniuses we, or at least me), have had more
substantive discussions, exploring philosophic, theologic, political
and economic aspects of the issues than either Bore or Gush, both of
whom are supposedly well versed in such arcana.
I doubt either one could stand up to either Mr. Copold or myself in a
debate, not about "facts" but about basic principles,
philosophical/theological.
That's what needed in politics today and, unfortunately, no one
approaches this level, outside of conjuring God up for "family values",
whatver those mean.
Sorry....but this political election is the nadir of American politics
so far.
I'm waiting for them to descend to the level of Phillippines politics;
it shouldn't be too long.
Atsaves
cynical in that election, either four or six years ago we had someone running
as a state senator (to be sent to Springfield, IL) who was in the hospital on
his death bed on election day.
He was kept on life support and died two days later. The local GOP (he was a
GOP candidate) selected someone who then served out his term!
The Democrats were rather upset about this as you can very well imagine and
there were lots and lots of snide comments and charges about it, but they ran a
lackluster candidate who was losing to a huge margin to a dying man anyway! (It
was a strong GOP suburban area.)
Politics ain't bean bag! -:)
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Polichinello crash_...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 8:52 AM
Message-id: <8v0sbk$cql$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <uim71t88r4tqlspnk...@4ax.com>,
V1_0
>
> I find your tirade a little puzzling, to say the least.
>
> The point is quite simple, very simple, as simple as a prairie muffin
> on a clean white plate.
>
> Americans are, essentially, a bunch of overstuffed, obese, greedy,
> moronic and self-obsessed couch potatoes whose only passions are
> shopping, driving gas-guzzling SUV's and RV's, and toting military
> rifles.
Excuse me, I think I heard you wrong. Must be the noise from the TV,
or the people next door doing all that shooting and the rev'in of their
4x4's. If I could figure out how to use this remote, I'd think about
turning down the volume of the TV - maybe I'd be able to hear a bit
better if I rolled up this window too.. Nah, too hard.
>
> There hasn't been any, any, political debate worth even the flatulent
> explosion of a field mouse in this country for years.
Besides those we are having here?
>
> Americans can't think. The only thinking they do has to do with buying
> and selling, the two primary cultural activities besides watching
> boring TV shows and getting excited about men fighting over a turd
> shaped object on New Year's day or hurtling and hitting a spit covered
> ball during the summer or seeing overgrown tatooed black men fight
> over a large bounceable pumpkin.
Or someone kicking a pumpkin around a field for no good reason.
>
> The political process in this country has deteriorated to an
> advertising contest. Sound bites convey no thought, just emotion and
> feeling.
>
> There is no thought, no real debate, no thinking.
You expect that there should be? Name one time or place where
the "masses" were involved in more than day to day existance. Where
the "masses" actually made a decision, rather than following. If you
take a look at, say, all the "revolutions" that occured - French,
Russian, Civil war, American Revolution, you see a small group of
people piloting the rest.
>
> And, as long as this continues, your personal tirades about the evil
> Democrats vs, virtuous Republicans, ( snark!), will continue to be
> highly amusing and irrelevant and useless.
Until the next small group comes along and pilots us to another form of
government, or all passes.
-V
Polichinello
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> Hey Derek, if you think that the use of Mel Carnahan's widow in
Missouri was
> cynical in that election, either four or six years ago we had someone
running
> as a state senator (to be sent to Springfield, IL) who was in the
hospital on
> his death bed on election day.
>
> He was kept on life support and died two days later. The local GOP
(he was a
> GOP candidate) selected someone who then served out his term!
>
> The Democrats were rather upset about this as you can very well
imagine and
> there were lots and lots of snide comments and charges about it, but
they ran a
> lackluster candidate who was losing to a huge margin to a dying man
anyway! (It
> was a strong GOP suburban area.)
>
> Politics ain't bean bag! -:)
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
"When I die, I want to be buried in Brooks County, so I can continue
being active in politics."
Ann Richards, Fmr. Governor of Texas commenting on the South Texas
county. (She was a lousy governor, but had a few good moments.)
Polichinello
Support D.C. statehood. Then you can call the Reverend "Senator," and
never see him again, except on holidays or CNN. :)
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
In article <20001116133725...@ng-fk1.aol.com>,
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> Hey Grace!
>
> In Illinois, we rejected Jesse Jackson twice! We are always trying to
ship him
> out to stir up things whenever we can!
>
> Problem is, everyone keeps sending him back to us! Maybe those little
old
> ladies in Palm Beach will think he's cute and keep him!
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
>
> << Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> From: walke...@aol.com (Walkermonk)
> Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 6:50 PM
> Message-id: <20001115195047...@ng-fr1.aol.com>
>
> Shouldn't the fact that Gore couldn't win his home state (where I
live) tell
> the rest of the country something?? We know him, and we don't want
him.
>
> Grace Walker Monk
>
> >>
>
>
--
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <8v1c2j$rcn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
V1_0 <v1...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8v108e$g9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Mr. Copold,
> >
> > I find your tirade a little puzzling, to say the least.
> >
> > The point is quite simple, very simple, as simple as a prairie
muffin
> > on a clean white plate.
> >
> > Americans are, essentially, a bunch of overstuffed, obese, greedy,
> > moronic and self-obsessed couch potatoes whose only passions are
> > shopping, driving gas-guzzling SUV's and RV's, and toting military
> > rifles.
>
> Excuse me, I think I heard you wrong. Must be the noise from the TV,
> or the people next door doing all that shooting and the rev'in of
their
> 4x4's. If I could figure out how to use this remote, I'd think about
> turning down the volume of the TV - maybe I'd be able to hear a bit
> better if I rolled up this window too.. Nah, too hard.
>
> >
> > There hasn't been any, any, political debate worth even the
flatulent
> > explosion of a field mouse in this country for years.
>
> Besides those we are having here?
Ironically, there's been more substantive discussions here, even with
all the insults, than there has been in national debates.
>
> >
> > Americans can't think. The only thinking they do has to do with
buying
> > and selling, the two primary cultural activities besides watching
> > boring TV shows and getting excited about men fighting over a turd
> > shaped object on New Year's day or hurtling and hitting a spit
covered
> > ball during the summer or seeing overgrown tatooed black men fight
> > over a large bounceable pumpkin.
>
> Or someone kicking a pumpkin around a field for no good reason.
Can't. Too messy. Besides, it's a skull.
>
> >
> > The political process in this country has deteriorated to an
> > advertising contest. Sound bites convey no thought, just emotion and
> > feeling.
> >
> > There is no thought, no real debate, no thinking.
>
> You expect that there should be? Name one time or place where
> the "masses" were involved in more than day to day existance. Where
> the "masses" actually made a decision, rather than following. If you
> take a look at, say, all the "revolutions" that occured - French,
> Russian, Civil war, American Revolution, you see a small group of
> people piloting the rest.
Then you need to go to some other countries where people actually do
discuss and debate politics, where demonstrations or manifestations of
various sizes and sorts occur whenever certain topics need real
political debate. As for political debate, there's numerous magazines
and newspapers, each with a fairly articulate political viewpoint.
Do you know of any major magazine in the U.S. that even admits to a
political view?
After all, look at the recent "petrol" strike in the U.K. It was rather
effective in forcing the government to examine the problem and at least
communicate.
That's democracy in action.
I doubt the ol' couch potato would even get up to demonstrate over
anything, particularly if a game's on.
>
> >
> > And, as long as this continues, your personal tirades about the evil
> > Democrats vs, virtuous Republicans, ( snark!), will continue to be
> > highly amusing and irrelevant and useless.
>
> Until the next small group comes along and pilots us to another form
of
> government, or all passes.
>
> -V
>
GS
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:26:52 GMT, Polichinello
> <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 4. Concurrent counting of absentee ballots with one system only for
> >> absentee . Absentee ballots to be as ambiguous as possible and to be
> >> sent in enough in advance of the election to be electronically entered
> >> into the computerized system PRIOR to the popular vote.
> >
> >I would agree with that.
> >
> Love it! So you agree with Galina that absentee ballots should be "as
> ambiguous as possible"?? What are you two trying to do, make a mockery
> of our elections?
Oops, I meant to say that the ballots should be UNambiguous, of course!
hahahaha, thanks for noticing my mistake so I could address it!
Galina
>
> [Just kidding.]
GS
Got me, too. UNambiguous, UNambiguous, UNambiguous......
GS
Barros wrote:
>
> >
> > I suggest the following:
> >
> > 1. Complete elimination of the Electoral College. Don't need it in
> > this literate age, even for the illiterate. Should the electoral
> > College be maintain (to counterbalance the effect of large cities and
> > states as opposed to representing more sectors and areas of society),
> > the electors should be divided according to the popular vote. Thus a
> > state 2/3 Democratic in the vote should send 2/3 of its electors to
> > represent the Democratic candidate, and 1/3 to the represent the
> > Republics. The concept of "winner takes all" should be avoided when it
> > comes into conflict with the popular vote.
> Is this similar to what (for ex.) Maine does ? Sounds reasonable, esp.
> looking at the comments concerning the 3 19th c. winners of the electoral
> but not popular vote.
No, I was suggesting something more radical than Maine. Instead of
splitting the electoral college vote like Maine (which might, indeed, be
an interim step to a completely popular election), I was suggesting NO
ELECTORAL COLLEGE at all. The proponents of the Electoral College wish
to mitigate the votes coming from large cities as opposed to rural
areas, but I would suggest that these are already mitigated by the
existence of the Senate, which gives larger than population
representation to lower populated areas.
The Electoral COllege had its basis in a period in which the American
public was less than 25% literate. At that time, it made sense for
literate representative of the voting public to register their voting
decisions.
> > 2. ONE automatic voting system with provisions for changing one's vote
> > while in the booth (last minute decisions), advertised, explained and
> > demonstrated in the print and televised media repeatedly in advance of
> > the vote. Local sites should be available to practice voting, also as a
> > reminder of the importance of voting, perhaps at a local city or county
> > library.
> >
> We get alot of effluvia in our munincipal water bill (in 3 states over 15 +
> years): it would be nice if there were easily accessable info on voting
> protocols--idiot me didn't realise there was a 5 min. limit on voting
> machine use in NC.
> I def. think we need some standardized ballot --as I mentioned earlier,
> this is a highly mobile society.
In our highly mobile soceity, it would also be appropriate to have votes
cast by social security numbers, to discourage the practice of people
voting in two locales when they moved as people remain on the polls in
their former and present poliing places much of the time as there is a
spotty reporting of removals from the new registration to the previous
registration.
> At least in NC, woulda appreciated instructions inside the voting booth.
> And pens--I asked 4 times for a pen (in case I wound up w/ a write-in vote)
> and was refused each time.
I have noticed over the years, voting in ten different places, that
write-ins are confusing to a lot of polling places.
> > 3. No announcements of the popular vote until all voting is complete.
> > This would be a complete moratorium on poll results going public before
> > the final votes are tallied.
> If voting were spread over 2 or 3 days, to allow voting to start and finish
> at the same time nationwide, it seems such news might be less damaging..
Good point! Why not have a longer time for voting? Two days, however,
ought to be enough.
> > 4. Concurrent counting of absentee ballots with one system only for
> > absentee . Absentee ballots to be as UNambiguous as possible and to be
> > sent in enough in advance of the election to be electronically entered
> > into the computerized system PRIOR to the popular vote.
> >
> > 5. A ban on exit polling
> Oooh, denyin' the media's fun ? Now yer gettin' dangerous :)
The media can have all the fun it wants talking to people outside of
polling places. And it always has a lot of fun discussing the
aftershocks of any given election. But I do think we should truncate
the media's role in our election process. The individuals's votes
should be enaobled by minimizing the media's attempts to affect the
same. It is only human nature to want to "back a winner". So let that
winner be more public will than media determined during the process of
the vote itself.
> > 6. A responsible attitude on the part of networks not to air negative
> > campaign ads.
>
> Well, thats unlikely..
Yes, but.....
>
> Thanks for responding w/ thoughts...we've now got 3 years to figure it out
> ;)
I thought your two to three day vote idea was solid. It would allow for
people voting after work and have less impact on the economy as an
extended voting period would allow for the accommodation of more voters
after working hours..
>
> A.T.
GS
Rob Osborn wrote:
>
> Mr.Cobb,
>
> I don't think that 19,000 ballets were arbitrarily dismissed. In fact, they
> were discarded and the voters were allowed to re-cast their votes.
>
> This is what I have heard through the media, anyway. Please don't forget
> that 15,000 ballets were discarded from the same county and voting area in
> 1996. It seems that they have a history or botching their vote.
>
> Peace
>
> Rob
Please give some indication that you are right as to those 19,000 +
discarded ballots being revoted. That is not what I am reading in the
Washington Post unless I missed something..
>
> nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
> news:3A1345AD...@cris.com...
> > Well John, I'm not Clinton-loving, nor an ultra-liberal. "The Reader" was
> a
> > reject and there have been many.
> >
> > Ms. Harris is trying to throw the election. There can be no fair election
> when
> > 19,000 votes are arbitrarily dismissed!
> >
> > This has nothing to do with Liberalism. It has everything to do with a
> fair
> > election with proper counting in Florida!
One tends to agree with Nick. One thing I found amazingly mismanaged
was having different formats in different counties for voting. Does
anyone know if this is the case in other states?
Walkermonk
>From: ats...@aol.com (Atsaves)
>Date: 11/16/2000 12:37 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20001116133725...@ng-fk1.aol.com>
>
>Hey Grace!
>
>In Illinois, we rejected Jesse Jackson twice! We are always trying to ship
>him
>out to stir up things whenever we can!
>
>Problem is, everyone keeps sending him back to us! Maybe those little old
>ladies in Palm Beach will think he's cute and keep him!
>
>Regards,
>
>Louis Geo. Atsaves
>
LOL! Hadn't thought of that. :-)
Grace Walker Monk
Walkermonk
>From: Polichinello crash_...@my-deja.com
>Date: 11/16/2000 12:49 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8v1a83$pn5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>Actually, if you think Florida is bad, you better hope New Mexico
>doesn't tie. They settle those situations by dealing both candidate one
>hand of five card poker. (No bets, or card exchanges, show what you
>got.) The winner is the one with the higher hand.
>
>One sheriff (I think) got into office with an Ace high flush.
>
>Best Regards,
>Derek Copold
>
>[...]
My husband thinks they should do a Celebrity Death Match with wives and VPs
taking turns too.
Grace Walker Monk
GS
Atsaves wrote:
>
> In my state (Illinois) "dimples" don't count on punch cards as they can also be
> interpreted that the voter was ready to punch the hole, but then changed his
> mind. The "chad" must be perforated in part for the vote to count. As a
> former election judge, I can tell you that inspecting ballots in such a fashion
> is a major pain in the posterior glutemus maximus! Hard on the eyes too! We
> used to average 750 voters in our precinct. If the machine registered less
> than 700 votes for the highest office, based on 750 votes cast, we are
> instructed to inspect the ballots on the spot to see if the machine screwed up
> or if the voters truly intended to vote for no one (or in the alternative, vote
> for both candidates for an office). We then look at the "chad" and arrive at a
> decision and report how many ballots were handled in such a fashion, and
> initial each ballot so inspected and counted so someone later could double
> check on us through a formal recount. (That way they don't have to go through
> several hundred thousand ballots, they limit it to the initialed ones!)
>
> But what's this stuff in Florida about most ballots being counted in
> centralized locations by machine only, and not by the election judges in the
> precincts? Talk about potential for mischief!
>
> Here, we count them in the precincts, sign off on the numbers we find, then we
> drive them to the local county clerk and sign a receipt for them. If they need
> to be recounted later on, they are done at the clerks' office. We don't leave
> them behind, or let someone else stroll out the door with the ballot box(es)
> with ballots not being counted yet! How neanderthal! How preposterous! No
> wonder why they are having so much trouble counting! They only thing we leave
> behind is the equipment that gets picked up the next day!
>
> And that's compared to Cook County for crying out loud! Sheesh!
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
>
Oh, we've got a professional on our newsgroup! Great to hear how it
works, Louis. But speaking of Neanderthal, why were y'all using that
punchcard method at all when there were ambiguous results on a regular
basis enough to note a chad punching/perforation rule?
I love our machines like I used in this election. You punch a button
and it registers a light next to the person of your vote. If you didn't
like it, or you pressed the button wrong, you can punch it again....and
again and again until the little lights shine on whoever you wish. Only
after the whole process is done, you push the vote button on the lower
right hand side, a big giant one. This opens the curtain in the booth.
the previous ones we had had a lever to register the final vote, which
some weaker people had a hard time effecting, so I found the new
machines an improvement.
GS
Polichinello wrote:
> In comes
> the Gore goons to talk to the local pols and, surprise, surprise,
> Broward county will recount yet again.
Do you think it necessary to suggest that epople associated with the
election campaign of Vice President Gore are "goons"?
> That way they know how many Gore ballots they
> need to manufacture. This is why Florida and other states have these
> deadlines for certification.
I think this amounts to libel of both the Gore campaign and of the
Florida elections systems, which I doubt are partisan. I think it
unnecessary for you to state such an OPINION, especially on a religious
netgroup, without proving such assertions.
>
> Best Regards,
> Derek Copold
> --
> http://www.houstonreview.com
> Houston's Conservative News Source
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
In general, I see nothing worng with our Orthodox newsgroup discussing
the issue of the American election, and ways we think it could be
improved, or the nature of the Orthodox vote, as diverse as that is.
However, I think we need not generalize and negatively characterize
individual candidates in ad hominem attacks or otherwise act in less
than an appropriate manner when discussing the issues and peoples
involved with the issues.
I'd like to say that I usually vote as a conservative, and did so in
this election, BUT do not think that your written attitude reflects
conservatives in general. In fact, by using words such as "goons" or
suggesting that polling places have deadlines for certification becuase
of the probability of the manufacturing of votes you give conservatism a
somewhat inappropriate appearance.
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
>
>
> The problem is that we're not talking about looking at a simple mark or
> a hole now, Louis. They're trying to divine intent from dimpled chads.
> This in the hands of highly partisan Democratic officials.
Prove that the visual counting of chads is partisan, or even in the
"hands" of Democratic officials.
>
>
> Actually, the GOP is in court to stop hand recounts, which tamper with
> and damage ballots. The ruling from Palm Beach added the discretion
> proviso onto the law, which simply read the results "shall be" in at
> 5:00 today. Harris is following the letter of the law.
That is debateable as the letter of the law suggested that the ballots
themselves should avoid any ambiguity. My preference would have been
for a revote in locales with ambiguous returns and a large number of
thrown away ballots.
>
> Further, Theresa Lapore, the infamous ballot lady, refused a hand
> recount in a local race where the Republican lost by 13 votes because
> the machine was not malfunctioning. If anyone is applying arbitrary
> standards its the Palm Beach collective.
There should be no partisan decisions, but was this necessarily a
partisan decision? Were there thousands of uncounted votes?
>
>
>
> Not really. Wisconsin, Oregon, Pennsylvania are reporting a host of
> irregularities as well. The spoiled ballot conundrum plagues Cook County
> also, they've lost some 100,000 ballots to double punching. The only
> reason we're seeing what's happening in Florida is that the cameras are
> focused on it.
Ballot irregularities hsould be addressed wherever they ocur. THe GOAL
should be to ensure that every single individual vote really counts.
>
>
> But there is nothing wrong with machines.
Obviously there is, enough for a considerable number of people to feel
that their votes went to waste with a confusing ballot format.
Lapore admitted as much
> herself. They provide an objective count with a lessened probability of
> tampering.
The disputed punch ballot itself was ambiguous enough to cause seroius
questions of voter intent.
>
> The Bush campaign isn't hiring marketers to create crowds, nor are they
> stirring up racial antagonisms with some pet rent-a-rioter like Jesse
> Jackson. They have followed the law and obeyed all court orders given
> them.
Are you suggest that the Gore campaign is "sitrring up racial
antagonisms"?
On what basis do you call Jesse Jackson a "rent-a-rioter"?
>
>
> Even in such a situation you can't be everywhere at once. Bush may head
> the state government, but in the counties involved the Democrats provide
> the workers and the sheriff's assistants through patronage. And, in
> fact,there have been several callouts of problems.
Please prove that partisanship or do not suggest it.
>
>
> But the final tallies, and the corrected tally didn't show him losing.
> He was ahead. The problem with the network call was 1) It was issued
> before the polls closed in the panhandle (a central time zoned area) and
> 2) it failed to include enough Cubans in the math. The Bush campaign was
> right in questioning the call. It was wrong.
I agree there. See my suggesting on exit polling by the media.
Anything that could affect voting that has not yet occurred by
suggesting a "winner" should be stopped.
>
> > And someone should pound on their crack lawyers and fool female press
> person
Has the BUsh campaign no "crack lwyers" or "female press persons"? Do
you personally wish to give the impression that a female press person is
any different than a male one?
> > over the noggin a few times so that they understand that there has
> only been
> > ONE election, not three, there have been two (and in some places
> three)
> > recounts of the ballots cast during the ONE election, with different
> results
> > each time, and the State of Florida is clearly incapable of counting
> those
> > ballots because the result would be a Gore victory.
I think the above paragraph irresponsible.
>
> Any recount will give you this result anywhere. Be it in Florida, Texas
> or even Illinois. It always happens.
No, I doubt it "always" happens.
>
>
> LOL. Daley is part of the band of thieves
Would you like to substantiate that Daley is a theif, or the people he
works with?
doing everything they can to
> hijack the election through legal chicanery. He knows damn
Do you think you could leave out the D...word in our Orthodox newsgroup?
well what he
> was doing when he singled out the Florida counties for a hand recount
> which favored him. That the Bush campaign was too slow to call for their
> own doesn't make his actions any more commendable or democratic. So now
> Daley was counter-blocked by Florida state law, which law demands in
> explicit terms that all returns be in by 5:00 yesterday.
>
> Live by legal technicality, die by legal technicality.
You seem to have variable attitudes on this one
Rob Osborn
Palm Beach election site and indicated that the 19,000 ballets were, in
fact, ballets that were discarded because of voter error. And, that the
voters were given new ballots to cast.
GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3A143E13...@my-deja.com...
evagr...@my-deja.com
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
> In article <20001115191443...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
> ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> [...]
>
> First of all, I never said the Daleys were stupid. Immoral, ruthless
> and potentially evil, yes, but not stupid.
Substantiate in the case of the Daley involved.
>
> Florida is now undergoing a nationwide rectal exam on prime-time TV.
Was that necessary on our Orthodox newsgroup?
>
> I feel that Al Gore is unquestionably the lowest form of
> life on two legs, save maybe the Clintons, but the nation is already
> perilously divided, and civil war may be an option in a generation if
> things keep going this way. Not even Al Gore is worth that.
I find your characterization of Gore specious and your atittude that our
nation is on the verge of a Civil War and perilously divided downright
silly
>
>
> Also, I'm not sure you understand the problems
Actually, I think he does understand a varied electorate. He's from
Chicago
with maintaining a watch
> on an election in a state so varied. I know Illinois isn't exactly
> monochrome, but Florida's a whole other country. Outside of Chicago and
> E. St. Louis, it's fairly bland and whitebread.
Define whitebread
Florida's a lot
> different. Much of the state speaks Spanish,
So does one-fifth of the Washington, D.C. area.
Define "much"
> some counties are Jewish,
Same as a lot of other areas of the country. Is this bad?
> others redneck,
Define "redneck". By this do you mean agricultural or something else?
others predominantly black.
Baltimore, Maryland is over 60% Afro-American. Is this unusual?
Actually, take Chicago and
> expand it into an area the size of Florida, and you see the problem.
What problem might this be? That Americans come from diverse
backgrounds?
I
> worked as a Republican poll watcher in South Texas (an 85% Democratic
> region), and even with a popular Republican governor in the state, it
> was just impossible to cover each and every station in the area. We
> didn't have the people there, and it isn't so easy shipping them down
> from Houston or Dallas on a Tuesday.
Whyever not? I been there and noted that there are major highways into
the area...
When I look at the maps of Palm
> Beach and Miami-Dade, I see a situation similar to the Rio Grande
> Valley.
And that would be what? Poll watcher preference to not go to certain
locales? What?
>
> I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes, Mistake
> One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for them,
I am sure that a seasoned diplomat like James Baker will appreciate your
characterization of him.
By the way, is there anything negative, in your mind, about older women?
> and instead of asking for a time consuming hand recount for the entire
> state, along with other states, they went to court. (The prospect of a
> long interregnum would shaken Gore's support at that point when they
> had the moral upper hand, and led to his eventual concession.) But in
> insisting that the deadline be observed, so that hanky-panky is kept to
> minium, Harris, in my view, is doing the right thing, and she's
> observing the law of her state.
You are unwarranted in suggesting "hanky panky" without proof of the
same.
>
> If the courts want to overturn it, fine. Have at it. It'll weaken Gore
> all the more, which, for the sake of the country, is fine by me. It'll
> tough as hell
Is this expression appropriate for an Orthodox newsgroup?
for Gore to go out and bomb someone in the name of
> democracy when he owes his office to a court ruling.
Although I was against the bombing of Kosovo (Bombing is never the
answer), as I assume you refer to, the reason for doing so was based on
an escalation of horrifying civil and human rights abuses. It was not
Gore, by the way, who bombed anyone but NATO, of which the United States
was a part. There was bi-partisan apprpoval for the bombing,
unfortunately.
GS
Walkermonk wrote:
>
> Shouldn't the fact that Gore couldn't win his home state (where I live) tell
> the rest of the country something?? We know him, and we don't want him.
Politics in Tennessee have changed radically from the time that Gore
Senior went stumping the state in his overalls.
What are your specific reasons for not wanting him, personally?
>
> Grace Walker Monk
GS
Atsaves wrote:
>
> Hey Grace!
>
> In Illinois, we rejected Jesse Jackson twice! We are always trying to ship him
> out to stir up things whenever we can!
>
> Problem is, everyone keeps sending him back to us! Maybe those little old
> ladies in Palm Beach will think he's cute and keep him!
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
Let Washington D.C. be a state and let Jessee run for election as its
first Senator. He'd probably do a great job.
>
> << Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> From: walke...@aol.com (Walkermonk)
> Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 6:50 PM
> Message-id: <20001115195047...@ng-fr1.aol.com>
>
> Shouldn't the fact that Gore couldn't win his home state (where I live) tell
> the rest of the country something?? We know him, and we don't want him.
>
> Grace Walker Monk
>
> >>
BrendanoD
INSTEAD OF ALGORE
10. They complained that the arrow wasn't in ENGLISH
9. They didn't want to take a pregnant chad to have a back-alley abortion
8. They were rattled from their walk to the Polling Place from all the people
yelling at them to "GIT OUTTA MY GARAGE!"
7. They voted for multiple candidates by punching-in their vote with their
false teeth
6. They thought "Pat Buchanan" was short for "Algore"
5. Their moral compass arrow keeps pointing SOUTH
4. They were distracted by thinking about that nice lady, Carol Roberts of the
Canvassing Board...."she's such a nice Femi-Nazi"
3. *sigh*
2. After 6 hours of voting, the polling official was getting too"snippy"
1. Their lucky "Clinton" thong was getting too crunchy, if you know what I mean
GS
Y2K wrote:
>
> You think Bush's wife voted for Gore? (hehe)
>
Hmmmm. If you were Bush's wife, would you vote for him?
> =============
>
> Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
>
> ~ Niels Bohr ~
Atsaves
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
evagr...@my-deja.com
uh........what was I thinking about?????
I'll get back to you on it. I think it vanished into the Internet ether.
In article <8v175g$msu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Polichinello <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8v15lb$lk0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Mr. Copold,
> [...]
>
> I assume you have more a response than this.
>
> Best Regards,
> Derek Copold
> --
> http://www.houstonreview.com
> Houston's Conservative News Source
>
evagr...@my-deja.com
I prefer the Klingon Death Match. It's more virile, if you know what I
mean.
Besides.......we'd at least have a physically fit president.
In article <20001116160147...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
GS
frjohn wrote:
>
> "nick cobb" <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
> news:3A11EE60...@cris.com...
> > Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
> > hand-counting of ballots.
> >
> > ALL Americans should be up in arms.
>
Gore and the Democrats are trying to steal the election buy phony hand
recounts
Is it appropriate to charge Gore and his campaign staff with theft?
> Unfortunately, Florida is not the only place where Gore and his people have
> tried to steal this election.
Is it appropriate to charge Gore and his campaign staff with theft?
They illegally kept the polls open in
> Democratic areas of Missouri several hours beyond the legal limit.
Were people prevented from voting there if the polls had closed? What
was the stated reason for keeping the polls open?
Although
> they did not steal enough votes to keep Bush from taking the state,
Is it appropriate to charge Gore and his campaign staff with theft?
they did
> succeed in electing a dead man to the U.S. Senate.
I believe that was a live wife of a man who had fallen asleep that was
elected?
In Milwaukee, students
> have admitted that they voted more than once.
Yes. I am sure that this happened elsewhere as well, but should not be
attributed to anything partisan. It is illegal wherever it occurs.
In the same town, Gore workers
> were bribing homeless men to vote for Gore with cigarettes.
No one bribes anyone's votes. If someone was handing out cigarettes,
that is not appropriate, but even so should not have affected a vote.
> Here in Shreveport, Gore and his supporters have convinced the blacks that
> if Bush wins they will have to go back to slavery.
Where can we read about this unsubstantiated claim? Can you po9int to
any speech of Gore's in which he sated such a thing? Anyone else's
speech?
Gore supporters also
> called homes and told people that if Bush is elected workers will lose their
> right to overtime pay.
Has this been substantiated? A Roman Catholic rpiest in the Washington
area suggested to parishioners who had Gore bumper stickers that they
could not take communion. I suppose there are irregularities all over
the country when people express their opinions, however misguided and
undemocratic in order to effect results they'd like to see..
>Finally, all over the country, black churches
> violated IRS rules and became involved in the effort to elect Gore.
See above on the Roman Catholic parish. Over the years, I have heard a
few sermons in Chruch that suggested who the priest thought parisioners
ought to vote for. I agree that this should not be done.
>
> Archpriest John W. Morris
Your opinions would have been better stated without the Archpriest in
front of your name. You are entitled to an opinion, and welcome to
suggest illegalities, especially if substantiated, but.......people
might mistakenly think htat you represent CHURCH opinion.
GS
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
>
>
>
> The idea of bribing homeless men with cigarettes, when you stop to
> think about it, is preposterous. The homeless generally are not
> registered voters.
That is correct. A number of years ago I and my son Theodore stumped on
the street for a resolution in the District of Columbia to guarantee
homeless people a place to stay (i.e. shelter accommodations). The
single most asked question by every homeless person who stopped by to
speak to me during the day I was doing this volunteer work was "How can
I register to vote until I get an address?". I didn't know how this
could be accomplished, unfortunately, but provided a little information
on who they might contact.
We are called upon to be merciful, even as our Lord is merciful.
Rob Osborn
More than I trust you.
<evagr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8v1ifb$1h5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3A1345AD...@cris.com...
> > > > > Well John, I'm not Clinton-loving, nor an ultra-liberal. "The
> Reader"
> > was
> > > > a
> > > > > reject and there have been many.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ms. Harris is trying to throw the election. There can be no fair
> > election
> > > > when
> > > > > 19,000 votes are arbitrarily dismissed!
> > > > >
> > > > > This has nothing to do with Liberalism. It has everything to do
> with a
> > > > fair
> > > > > election with proper counting in Florida!
> > >
> > > One tends to agree with Nick. One thing I found amazingly
> mismanaged
> > > was having different formats in different counties for voting. Does
> > > anyone know if this is the case in other states?
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > nskov wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "John Peters" <hoodp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:4mnQ5.751$S43....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > nick cobb wrote in message <3A11EE60...@cris.com>...
> > > > > > > >Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has
> > stopped
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >hand-counting of ballots.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just like St. Katherine stopped the pagan philosophers and
> > schemers of
> > > > her
> > > > > > > day, and no doubt she'll be martyred too.
> > > > > > > BTW, is Jesse Jackson on the faculty of SVS these days?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John: Nick Cobb, the ultra liberal, Clinton-loving, SVS
> graduate,
> > never
> > > > did
> > > > > > and never will speak for St. Vlad's. After all, even "The
> Reader"
> > > > attended
> > > > > > SVS.
> > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
>
>
> With the ads run by the NAACP, you have to be suspicious though. There
> was genuine hatred ginned up against Bush. That kind of tribalism is not
> good. Particularly as Bush has done a lot to include minorities in the
> GOP, and in Texas government. There's an us against them mentality
> siezing hold of the country, and this is one of the most visible
> manifestations.
I find your use of the word "tribalism" when discussing an
Afro-American organization particularly appalling
>
> There are other irregularities as well. Absentee military ballots were
> sent bulk rate 4th class instead of first class, and after being cast
> were delayed yet further by the post.
That is unfortunate but ought have no efect on who anyone voted for
In Philadelphia absentee ballots
> were passed around black churches filled out under watchful eyes and
> returned to proctors.
Can you point to a URL to substantiate such an accusation in terms of
the "watchful eyes"?
>God only knows
SInce you rarely discuss theological or Church oriented issues on this
forum, and this is another example of your not discussing the same,
could you respectfully limit your use of the word "God" in association
with your partisan politics. I will remind you that I am a conservative
as I suggest this.
how many non-citizens were given
> ballots in addition to the millions hustled through by the politicized
> INS.
>
> However, all in all, I'm thinking Bush should look at conceding. Gore
> will be severely weakened as president. He'll have to deal with Sen.
> Clinton's ambitions and an opposition legislature. Also, Gore doesn't
> have the talents of Bill Clinton, so he's most likely going to lose even
> further seats in the mid-term election. If Bush hangs tight, he'll be in
> a good spot to run again in 2004. (It's going to be rather difficult
> after last night though.)
>
> The only thing that galls me is that the Clintons are going to get away
> with murder one more time. But, low-lifes that they are, they are not
> worth ripping the country apart.
Thank you for your opinion.
Polichinello
GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > In comes
> > the Gore goons to talk to the local pols and, surprise, surprise,
> > Broward county will recount yet again.
>
> Do you think it necessary to suggest that epople associated with the
> election campaign of Vice President Gore are "goons"?
Yep.
>
> > That way they know how many Gore ballots they
> > need to manufacture. This is why Florida and other states have these
> > deadlines for certification.
>
> I think this amounts to libel of both the Gore campaign and of the
> Florida elections systems, which I doubt are partisan. I think it
> unnecessary for you to state such an OPINION, especially on a
religious
> netgroup, without proving such assertions.
[...}
>
> In general, I see nothing worng with our Orthodox newsgroup discussing
> the issue of the American election, and ways we think it could be
> improved, or the nature of the Orthodox vote, as diverse as that is.
> However, I think we need not generalize and negatively characterize
> individual candidates in ad hominem attacks or otherwise act in less
> than an appropriate manner when discussing the issues and peoples
> involved with the issues.
>
> I'd like to say that I usually vote as a conservative, and did so in
> this election, BUT do not think that your written attitude reflects
> conservatives in general. In fact, by using words such as "goons" or
> suggesting that polling places have deadlines for certification
becuase
> of the probability of the manufacturing of votes you give conservatism
a
> somewhat inappropriate appearance.
They've already caught one shmegegi running around Palm Beach with
a voting machine. A supervisor in Florida was punching out chads, and
there are charges of malfeasance now pending against Carol Roberts, and
the likes of Paul Begala, Bill Daley and Jesse Jackson are goons.
I call it as I see it. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
--
http://www.houstonreview.com
Houston's Conservative News Source
Polichinello
> > ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > First of all, I never said the Daleys were stupid. Immoral, ruthless
> > and potentially evil, yes, but not stupid.
>
> Substantiate in the case of the Daley involved.
Daley has out and out stated that whatever it takes, he'll get his man
in office. He doesn't care about legalities or the law. We already know
about the Senior Daley's activities.
> >
> > Florida is now undergoing a nationwide rectal exam on prime-time TV.
>
> Was that necessary on our Orthodox newsgroup?
Sorry.
> >
> > I feel that Al Gore is unquestionably the lowest form of
> > life on two legs, save maybe the Clintons, but the nation is already
> > perilously divided, and civil war may be an option in a generation
if
> > things keep going this way. Not even Al Gore is worth that.
>
> I find your characterization of Gore specious
Let's begin with "the greatest president in history" and go to Red
Chinese fundraisers. I have serious basis for this belief.
> and your atittude that
> our
> nation is on the verge of a Civil War and perilously divided downright
> silly
You don't go out west much, do you? We're not on the verge, but we are
on our way. If you don't believe me take a look at the county-by-county
map. The reds and the blues are disagreeing on issues that don't lend
themselves to compromise. This is not a good situation.
> > Also, I'm not sure you understand the problems
>
> Actually, I think he does understand a varied electorate. He's from
> Chicago
Well, duh. I said just that.
> with maintaining a watch
> > on an election in a state so varied. I know Illinois isn't exactly
> > monochrome, but Florida's a whole other country. Outside of Chicago
and
> > E. St. Louis, it's fairly bland and whitebread.
>
> Define whitebread
>
> Florida's a lot
> > different. Much of the state speaks Spanish,
>
> So does one-fifth of the Washington, D.C. area.
Much smaller area.
> Define "much"
A whole bunch. 30-40% of a state encompassing an area that would swallow
hundreds of DC's and Chicagos.
> > some counties are Jewish,
>
> Same as a lot of other areas of the country. Is this bad?
No. It's different.
> > others redneck,
> Define "redneck". By this do you mean agricultural or something else?
Something like that, yes.It's also encompasses a Southern culture.
> others predominantly black.
>
> Baltimore, Maryland is over 60% Afro-American. Is this unusual?
Maryland is much smaller, and Baltimore has known more than a few cases
of ballot rigging BTW.
> Actually, take Chicago and
> > expand it into an area the size of Florida, and you see the problem.
>
> What problem might this be? That Americans come from diverse
> backgrounds?
Are you just going to give me happy-clappy yip-yap, or address the
problem. Different cultures, different languages over a far larger area
make for a very difficult environment within which monitor votes.
> I
> > worked as a Republican poll watcher in South Texas (an 85%
Democratic
> > region), and even with a popular Republican governor in the state,
it
> > was just impossible to cover each and every station in the area. We
> > didn't have the people there, and it isn't so easy shipping them
down
> > from Houston or Dallas on a Tuesday.
>
> Whyever not? I been there and noted that there are major highways
into
> the area...
Houston is 6 hours away, Dallas 10. It's impractical when your
volunteers all work for a living.
> When I look at the maps of Palm
> > Beach and Miami-Dade, I see a situation similar to the Rio Grande
> > Valley.
>
> And that would be what? Poll watcher preference to not go to certain
> locales? What?
Obviously, there are preferences. You also have to travel miles, not
blocks, between very different precincts.
> >
> > I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes, Mistake
> > One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for them,
>
> I am sure that a seasoned diplomat like James Baker will appreciate
your
> characterization of him.
Baker blew the 92 election, and he's blowing this one as well. I
couldn't care less what he thinks. He may be a seasoned diplomat, but
when it comes to politics, he isn't so hot.
> By the way, is there anything negative, in your mind, about older
> women?
>
> > and instead of asking for a time consuming hand recount for the
entire
> > state, along with other states, they went to court. (The prospect of
a
> > long interregnum would shaken Gore's support at that point when they
> > had the moral upper hand, and led to his eventual concession.) But
in
> > insisting that the deadline be observed, so that hanky-panky is kept
to
> > minium, Harris, in my view, is doing the right thing, and she's
> > observing the law of her state.
>
> You are unwarranted in suggesting "hanky panky" without proof of the
> same.
The law is designed to prevent "hanky-panky" that's why it needs to be
enforced. It's like a seat-belt law. Sure someone may have done fine
without the seat belt for years, but we can't say the same forever.
And there has been hanky-panky in the past.
> >
> > If the courts want to overturn it, fine. Have at it. It'll weaken
Gore
> > all the more, which, for the sake of the country, is fine by me.
It'll
> > tough as hell
>
> Is this expression appropriate for an Orthodox newsgroup?
Are you thinking I should say hell is easy?
> for Gore to go out and bomb someone in the name of
> > democracy when he owes his office to a court ruling.
>
> Although I was against the bombing of Kosovo (Bombing is never the
> answer), as I assume you refer to, the reason for doing so was based
on
> an escalation of horrifying civil and human rights abuses. It was not
> Gore, by the way, who bombed anyone but NATO, of which the United
States
> was a part. There was bi-partisan apprpoval for the bombing,
> unfortunately.
Not really. The usual GOP cowards headed for the high grass of "support
the troops," but most of GOP House delegation voted to stop the war.
BTW, I was thinking more along the lines of the unfortunated aspirin
factory in the Sudan.
V1_0
GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Barros wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I suggest the following:
> > >
>>> 1. Complete elimination of the Electoral College. Don't need it in
>>> this literate age, even for the illiterate. Should the electoral
>>> College be maintain (to counterbalance the effect of large cities
>>> and states as opposed to representing more sectors and areas of
>>> society), the electors should be divided according to the popular
>>> vote. Thus a state 2/3 Democratic in the vote should send 2/3 of
>>> its electors to represent the Democratic candidate, and 1/3 to the
>>> represent the Republics. The concept of "winner takes all" should
>>> be avoided when it comes into conflict with the popular vote.
Why? How far down will you go with this division? When 51% of a state
votes for a ___ Governer, how do you divide the office?
You see, with the current system when we vote for a president, we vote
as a *state*, not as individuals. That's what the electorial college
does for us. We individually vote to determine what we as a *state*
want. Then all the states cast their votes to determine a president.
The vote of each state is weighted - that's why some states have more
Electorial votes than others.
This prevents one state (or smallish group of states) from total
control, which *could* happen (in an unlikely scenario) if all the
votes for a party are concentrated in those states. In this case, the
policy of the nation would be in favor of those states rather than the
nation as a whole. Note: this sort of scenario had much more of a
possibility of occuring when there were fewer states.
Not that I'm advocating keeping the electorial college - what I am
saying is that the reasons for it are deeper than just illiteracy.
Unless you are thinking that it is there to "override" the votes of the
population - in which case I'm sure that any of us could think of a
more clever way to do that.
> The proponents of the Electoral College wish to mitigate the votes
> coming from large cities as opposed to rural areas, but I would
> suggest that these are already mitigated by the
> existence of the Senate, which gives larger than population
> representation to lower populated areas.
Again, it's the state that gets represented. This is counterbalanced
by the house.
>
> The Electoral COllege had its basis in a period in which the American
> public was less than 25% literate. At that time, it made sense for
> literate representative of the voting public to register their voting
> decisions.
At any rate, I assert that the Electorial college won't be that far off
from the popular vote. Here's the latest numbers:
Candidate Votes % Electoral Votes *
Al Gore (D) 49,386,557 48% 262
George W. Bush (R) 49,154,355 48% 246
Ralph Nader (Gre.) 2,703,722 3% 0
Patrick J. Buchanan (Ref.) 438,407 0% 0
A little math on them:
49386557 - 49154355 = 232202
49386557 + 49154355 = 98540912
232202/98540912 = 2.35640197850005691037241465757e-3
******* 0.24% difference. ******
It's pretty close. So how has the electorial college overriden "the
will of the people" - bear in mind that the final results aren't in,
and that the percentage of error on these numbers from our election
process is greater than the difference in the votes.
When we go to 99% accuracy on vote recording, then I can see
the 'college as being an important thing to reform. Right now we
should focus on getting the process of recording votes more accurate
and timely (even if we give multiple days for voting - once it's done,
there should be no reason that we shouldn't know within a few hours who
won).
Either way, 52% of the population didn't vote for the winner. Isn't
that the majority?
-V
Polichinello
There
> > was genuine hatred ginned up against Bush. That kind of tribalism is
not
> > good. Particularly as Bush has done a lot to include minorities in
the
> > GOP, and in Texas government. There's an us against them mentality
> > siezing hold of the country, and this is one of the most visible
> > manifestations.
>
> I find your use of the word "tribalism" when discussing an
What? That's the word to described ethnic block behavior. Tribalism. It
has nothing to do with race.
> >
> > There are other irregularities as well. Absentee military ballots
were
> > sent bulk rate 4th class instead of first class, and after being
cast
> > were delayed yet further by the post.
>
> That is unfortunate but ought have no efect on who anyone voted for
If they didn't get their ballots, that's a problem. If they were
hampered, that's a problem. If the ballots are delayed in transit,
that's a problem.
> In Philadelphia absentee ballots
> > were passed around black churches filled out under watchful eyes and
> > returned to proctors.
>
> Can you point to a URL to substantiate such an accusation in terms of
> the "watchful eyes"?
http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2000/11/15/recount/print.html
> >God only knows
>
> SInce you rarely discuss theological or Church oriented issues on this
> forum, and this is another example of your not discussing the same,
> could you respectfully limit your use of the word "God" in association
> with your partisan politics. I will remind you that I am a
conservative
> as I suggest this.
From someone who spent a great deal of time starting her own personal
crusade on threads of her own initiation, that's a rather strange
comment. Over the past couple of years, I've addressed mainly
theological issues. I didn't start this thread. Nick did, and I
responded to it.
I think saying "God only knows" is an apt description of the situation.
After all, He is, by definition, omniscient. Therefore, it would follow,
that off all beings, God would certainly know, particularly as we really
don't know how many non-citizens voted in our elections.
Or are you suggesting that God is not omniscient?
> how many non-citizens were given
> > ballots in addition to the millions hustled through by the
politicized
> > INS.
> >
> > However, all in all, I'm thinking Bush should look at conceding.
Gore
> > will be severely weakened as president. He'll have to deal with Sen.
> > Clinton's ambitions and an opposition legislature. Also, Gore
doesn't
> > have the talents of Bill Clinton, so he's most likely going to lose
even
> > further seats in the mid-term election. If Bush hangs tight, he'll
be in
> > a good spot to run again in 2004. (It's going to be rather difficult
> > after last night though.)
> >
> > The only thing that galls me is that the Clintons are going to get
away
> > with murder one more time. But, low-lifes that they are, they are
not
> > worth ripping the country apart.
>
> Thank you for your opinion.
You're quite welcome.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
--
http://www.houstonreview.com
Houston's Conservative News Source
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
> Support D.C. statehood. Then you can call the Reverend "Senator," and
> never see him again, except on holidays or CNN. :)
Beats seeing the head honcho of DC on a video in a motel smoking dope
with a hookah, pun intended
>
> Best Regards,
> Derek Copold
>
> In article <20001116133725...@ng-fk1.aol.com>,
> ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> > Hey Grace!
> >
> > In Illinois, we rejected Jesse Jackson twice! We are always trying to
> ship him
> > out to stir up things whenever we can!
> >
> > Problem is, everyone keeps sending him back to us! Maybe those little
> old
> > ladies in Palm Beach will think he's cute and keep him!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Louis Geo. Atsaves
> >
> > << Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > From: walke...@aol.com (Walkermonk)
> > Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 6:50 PM
> > Message-id: <20001115195047...@ng-fr1.aol.com>
> >
> > Shouldn't the fact that Gore couldn't win his home state (where I
> live) tell
> > the rest of the country something?? We know him, and we don't want
> him.
> >
> > Grace Walker Monk
> >
> > >>
> >
> >
>
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
>
>
> Yep.
>
> >
>
> They've already caught one shmegegi running around Palm Beach with
> a voting machine. A supervisor in Florida was punching out chads, and
> there are charges of malfeasance now pending against Carol Roberts, and
> the likes of Paul Begala, Bill Daley and Jesse Jackson are goons.
>
> I call it as I see it. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.
I will continue to comment on in appropriate language in posts on this
religious newsgroup. You don't like my commentary....killfile
me.....please
>
> Best Regards,
> Derek Copold
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > > First of all, I never said the Daleys were stupid. Immoral, ruthless
> > > and potentially evil, yes, but not stupid.
> >
> > Substantiate in the case of the Daley involved.
>
> Daley has out and out stated that whatever it takes, he'll get his man
> in office. He doesn't care about legalities or the law. We already know
> about the Senior Daley's activities.
In the first point, you cannot infer illegality through such a
statement, secondly, Daley Junior is not his father. Judge him on his
own merits and demerits....but substantiate generalizations and
characterizations amounting to blanket condemnations and libelous
statement with fact, not innuendo.
>
> > >
> > > Florida is now undergoing a nationwide rectal exam on prime-time TV.
> >
> > Was that necessary on our Orthodox newsgroup?
>
> Sorry.
That's the boy
>
> > >
> > > I feel that Al Gore is unquestionably the lowest form of
> > > life on two legs, save maybe the Clintons, but the nation is already
> > > perilously divided, and civil war may be an option in a generation
> if
> > > things keep going this way. Not even Al Gore is worth that.
> >
> > I find your characterization of Gore specious
>
> Let's begin with "the greatest president in history" and go to Red
> Chinese fundraisers. I have serious basis for this belief.
He is a good solid family man with good moral instincts. His wife's a
sweetie, too. I have seroius basis for this belief
>
> > and your atittude that
> > our
> > nation is on the verge of a Civil War and perilously divided downright
> > silly
>
> You don't go out west much, do you?
I was in Arizona this summer. Rest my case
We're not on the verge, but we are
> on our way.
Sun bakes too many heads down there. Just joking of course b ut the
rest of the country is ho hum on this....
If you don't believe me take a look at the county-by-county
> map. The reds and the blues are disagreeing on issues that don't lend
> themselves to compromise. This is not a good situation.
>
> > > Also, I'm not sure you understand the problems
> >
> > Actually, I think he does understand a varied electorate. He's from
> > Chicago
>
> Well, duh. I said just that.
Look at the sentence again.
>
> > with maintaining a watch
> > > on an election in a state so varied. I know Illinois isn't exactly
> > > monochrome, but Florida's a whole other country. Outside of Chicago
> and
> > > E. St. Louis, it's fairly bland and whitebread.
> >
> > Define whitebread
Whoops. WOuldn't touch that one, wouldya?
> >
> > Florida's a lot
> > > different. Much of the state speaks Spanish,
> >
> > So does one-fifth of the Washington, D.C. area.
>
> Much smaller area.
Uh, come again?
>
> > Define "much"
>
> A whole bunch. 30-40% of a state encompassing an area that would swallow
> hundreds of DC's and Chicagos.
Area or population?
>
> > > some counties are Jewish,
> >
> > Same as a lot of other areas of the country. Is this bad?
>
> No. It's different.
>
> > > others redneck,
> > Define "redneck". By this do you mean agricultural or something else?
>
> Something like that, yes.It's also encompasses a Southern culture.
I doubt you are a part of that culture and I doubt you understand it.
>
> > others predominantly black.
> >
> > Baltimore, Maryland is over 60% Afro-American. Is this unusual?
>
> Maryland is much smaller, and Baltimore has known more than a few cases
> of ballot rigging BTW.
Uh, Baltimore population is larger than that some foreign countries....
>
> > Actually, take Chicago and
> > > expand it into an area the size of Florida, and you see the problem.
> >
> > What problem might this be? That Americans come from diverse
> > backgrounds?
>
> Are you just going to give me happy-clappy yip-yap, or address the
> problem.
You are NOT addressing the question.
Different cultures, different languages over a far larger area
> make for a very difficult environment within which monitor votes.
>
> > I
> > > worked as a Republican poll watcher in South Texas (an 85%
> Democratic
> > > region), and even with a popular Republican governor in the state,
> it
> > > was just impossible to cover each and every station in the area. We
> > > didn't have the people there, and it isn't so easy shipping them
> down
> > > from Houston or Dallas on a Tuesday.
> >
> > Whyever not? I been there and noted that there are major highways
> into
> > the area...
>
> Houston is 6 hours away, Dallas 10. It's impractical when your
> volunteers all work for a living.
The cost of democracy.......Are you suggesting that Democrats have a
better volunteer service standard? That they are not working for a
living and can do better poll duty? What?
>
> > When I look at the maps of Palm
> > > Beach and Miami-Dade, I see a situation similar to the Rio Grande
> > > Valley.
You ever been down there?
> >
> > And that would be what? Poll watcher preference to not go to certain
> > locales? What?
>
> Obviously, there are preferences. You also have to travel miles, not
> blocks, between very different precincts.
Poor babies.....
>
> > >
> > > I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes, Mistake
> > > One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for them,
> >
> > I am sure that a seasoned diplomat like James Baker will appreciate
> your
> > characterization of him.
>
> Baker blew the 92 election, and he's blowing this one as well. I
> couldn't care less what he thinks. He may be a seasoned diplomat, but
> when it comes to politics, he isn't so hot.
So you would not only be proud of your characterization of this seasoned
diplomat and would even expand upon your dislike and disapproval of his
life contributions in addition to his efforts for and support of the
Bush campaign?
> > > I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes, Mistake
> > One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for them,
> > I am sure that a seasoned diplomat like James Baker will appreciate your
characterization of him.
By the way, is there anything negative, in your mind, about older
> > women?
Whoa....wouldn't touch that question either, wouldya boy. I take it you
will not be so cavalierly using phrases like "old ladies" so flippantly
in the future? Or calling James Baker one?
> >
> > > and instead of asking for a time consuming hand recount for the
> entire
> > > state, along with other states, they went to court. (The prospect of
> a
> > > long interregnum would shaken Gore's support at that point when they
> > > had the moral upper hand, and led to his eventual concession.) But
> in
> > > insisting that the deadline be observed, so that hanky-panky is kept
> to
> > > minium, Harris, in my view, is doing the right thing, and she's
> > > observing the law of her state.
> >
> > You are unwarranted in suggesting "hanky panky" without proof of the
> > same.
>
> The law is designed to prevent "hanky-panky" that's why it needs to be
> enforced. It's like a seat-belt law. Sure someone may have done fine
> without the seat belt for years, but we can't say the same forever.
>
> And there has been hanky-panky in the past.
>
> > >
> > > If the courts want to overturn it, fine. Have at it. It'll weaken
> Gore
> > > all the more, which, for the sake of the country, is fine by me.
> It'll
> > > tough as hell
> >
> > Is this expression appropriate for an Orthodox newsgroup?
>
> Are you thinking I should say hell is easy?
I'm suggesting that cursing is not appropriate for this newsgroup
>
> > for Gore to go out and bomb someone in the name of
> > > democracy when he owes his office to a court ruling.
> >
> > Although I was against the bombing of Kosovo (Bombing is never the
> > answer), as I assume you refer to, the reason for doing so was based
> on
> > an escalation of horrifying civil and human rights abuses. It was not
> > Gore, by the way, who bombed anyone but NATO, of which the United
> States
> > was a part. There was bi-partisan aproval for the bombing,
> > unfortunately.
>
> Not really. The usual GOP cowards headed for the high grass of "support
> the troops," but most of GOP House delegation voted to stop the war.
This is a disingenous response.
GS
Polichinello wrote:
>
> In article <3A145659...@my-deja.com>,
> GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Polichinello wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the ads run by the NAACP, you have to be suspicious though.
> There
> > > was genuine hatred ginned up against Bush. That kind of tribalism is
> not
> > > good. Particularly as Bush has done a lot to include minorities in
> the
> > > GOP, and in Texas government. There's an us against them mentality
> > > siezing hold of the country, and this is one of the most visible
> > > manifestations.
> >
> > I find your use of the word "tribalism" when discussing an
> > Afro-American organization particularly appalling.
>
> What? That's the word to described ethnic block behavior. Tribalism. It
> has nothing to do with race.
Yep, I' m sure.... Watch that language, boy
> > >
> > > There are other irregularities as well. Absentee military ballots
> were
> > > sent bulk rate 4th class instead of first class, and after being
> cast
> > > were delayed yet further by the post.
> >
> > That is unfortunate but ought have no efect on who anyone voted for
>
> If they didn't get their ballots, that's a problem. If they were
> hampered, that's a problem. If the ballots are delayed in transit,
> that's a problem.
But not, as I suggested, a partisan problem. As for the methodologies,
see my post on election reform. I suggested a uniform election method
and a very advanced mailing of absentee ballots to help ensure a
concurrent return with precinct voting.
>
> > In Philadelphia absentee ballots
> > > were passed around black churches filled out under watchful eyes and
> > > returned to proctors.
> >
> > Can you point to a URL to substantiate such an accusation in terms of
> > the "watchful eyes"?
>
> http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2000/11/15/recount/print.html
Salon.com is not exactly reliable verifiable news source, but I will
take a look......looking...written by a Nader supporter.....personal
opinion....Hmmmm... The remark was not substantiated and it was not as
you reported it. The original comment was :
> Local talk shows,
> for example, were seething in the week before the election about absentee ballots being distributed and compulsorily collected during services at African-American
> churches in Philadelphia.
There is nothing about watchful eyes here, only talk of distribution and
collection. This may be an overzealous method of getting absentee
ballot people to vote...and they may have all voted for BUsh, who
knows? Careful how you exaggerate, Derek old boy, or if and when you
get into the real media you might get justifiably sued.
>
> > >God only knows
> >
> > SInce you rarely discuss theological or Church oriented issues on this
> > forum, and this is another example of your not discussing the same,
> > could you respectfully limit your use of the word "God" in association
> > with your partisan politics. I will remind you that I am a
> conservative
> > as I suggest this.
>
> From someone who spent a great deal of time starting her own personal
> crusade on threads of her own initiation,
I am sorry I generalized about your postings. It is true that I often
skip them so I have no idea about which you usually write. I'm aware
the thread was begun by Nick.
What crusade (which crusade?) of mine are you referring to?
that's a rather strange
> comment. Over the past couple of years, I've addressed mainly
> theological issues. I didn't start this thread. Nick did, and I
> responded to it.
>
> I think saying "God only knows" is an apt description of the situation.
> After all, He is, by definition, omniscient. Therefore, it would follow,
> that off all beings, God would certainly know, particularly as we really
> don't know how many non-citizens voted in our elections.
Your original statement was :
> > God only knows how many non-citizens were given
> > ballots in addition to the millions hustled through by the politicized
> > INS.
It was that juxtaposition to which I was referring, not whether or not
God is greatest of all.
>
> Or are you suggesting that God is not omniscient?
>
Obviously not.
GS
Rob Osborn wrote:
>
> I heard it on the Rush Limbaugh show. Apparently Mary Matalin went to the
> Palm Beach election site and indicated that the 19,000 ballets were, in
> fact, ballets that were discarded because of voter error. And, that the
> voters were given new ballots to cast.
I haven't read this one. It might have been a misinterpretation of Ms
Matlin from something she overheard.
>
>
frjohn
>
> Is it appropriate to charge Gore and his campaign staff with theft?
>
Yes. It is appropriate because that is exactly what they are trying to do.
Gore was part of one of the most corrupt and dishonest administraitons in
American history. It now seems that he is even worse than Clinton.
Fr. John
GS
V1_0 wrote:
>
> In article <3A143D26...@my-deja.com>,
> GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Barros wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I suggest the following:
> > > >
> >>> 1. Complete elimination of the Electoral College. Don't need it in
> >>> this literate age, even for the illiterate. Should the electoral
> >>> College be maintain (to counterbalance the effect of large cities
> >>> and states as opposed to representing more sectors and areas of
> >>> society), the electors should be divided according to the popular
> >>> vote. Thus a state 2/3 Democratic in the vote should send 2/3 of
> >>> its electors to represent the Democratic candidate, and 1/3 to the
> >>> represent the Republics. The concept of "winner takes all" should
> >>> be avoided when it comes into conflict with the popular vote.
>
> Why? How far down will you go with this division? When 51% of a state
> votes for a ___ Governer, how do you divide the office?
>
> You see, with the current system when we vote for a president, we vote
> as a *state*, not as individuals.
I understand the current system, Mr. anonymous. I was suggesting that
there is no need for this system any longer . WE have, in this age, an
informed electorate. WE might not agree with the lot of them, or wish
to give the vote to the 50.00000001% of them, but our democracy is
strong enough and representative enough now to let people have their
vote, not electors.
That's what the electorial college
> does for us. We individually vote to determine what we as a *state*
> want. Then all the states cast their votes to determine a president.
> The vote of each state is weighted - that's why some states have more
> Electorial votes than others.
I know how the system works. It is time to move to a more
representative democracy in our voting. As I stated, the Senate takes
up the slack for the representation of states with smaller electorates.
>
> This prevents one state (or smallish group of states) from total
> control, which *could* happen (in an unlikely scenario) if all the
> votes for a party are concentrated in those states.
That is a fear, yes, and I addressed it. I even suggested a transition
, with a division of the electoral votes to multipartisaned electors
based on preicnct votes.
In this case, the
> policy of the nation would be in favor of those states rather than the
> nation as a whole. Note: this sort of scenario had much more of a
> possibility of occuring when there were fewer states.
>
> Not that I'm advocating keeping the electorial college - what I am
> saying is that the reasons for it are deeper than just illiteracy.
I never suggested t6hat illiteracy was the only reason and rationale for
the electoral college. I rather dislike you suggesting that I did twice
in one post.
> Unless you are thinking that it is there to "override" the votes of the
> population - in which case I'm sure that any of us could think of a
> more clever way to do that.
No, I did not suggest that.
>
> > The proponents of the Electoral College wish to mitigate the votes
> > coming from large cities as opposed to rural areas, but I would
> > suggest that these are already mitigated by the
> > existence of the Senate, which gives larger than population
> > representation to lower populated areas.
>
> Again, it's the state that gets represented. This is counterbalanced
> by the house.
that's obvious.
Now here's the crux. THere need not, actually, be a majority to win...
Barros
> I thought your two to three day vote idea was solid. It would allow for
> people voting after work and have less impact on the economy as an
> extended voting period would allow for the accommodation of more voters
> after working hours..
>
>
>>
>> A.T.
Except they'd HATE it in Pa. -- can't serve alcohol on voting days until the
polls close...
frjohn
>
>
> Is it appropriate to charge Gore and his campaign staff with theft?
>
Most definitely, the story below shows that they are trying to steal the
election.
Observers say ballots manipulated by examiner
By Steve Miller
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Visit our Election 2000 page
for daily election news and analysis
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Five observers to Saturday's hand count in Palm
Beach County have filed affidavits in federal court charging that a
Democratic county commissioner manipulated ballots so Al Gore would receive
more votes than George W. Bush.
Carol Roberts, a de facto appointee to the three-member elections
canvassing board, is accused in the filings of asking a Democratic observer
to the count whether ballots should count and that she "twisted the ballots
and poked her finger directly in sections of, and aggressively handled, the
ballots."
On one occasion, observer John Grotta said in a sworn statement, Miss
Roberts looked at a ballot and said " 'Unfortunately, the corners aren't
detached,' as she was referring to a ballot that would have been a vote for
Vice President Gore."
The most pointed charges in the affidavits were cited in a request by
the Palm Beach Republican Party that Miss Roberts, a longtime Democrat, step
down from the board because of her partisan behavior in last week's sample
count of 4,600 ballots.
When the count found that Mr. Gore netted 19 more votes, Miss Roberts
was adamant about a full recount, asserting that Mr. Gore could claim as
many as 1,900 more votes based on the sampling.
Miss Roberts refused to remove herself from the panel, saying in a
public statement - read by canvassing board chairman Charles Burton to a
press gallery that is now an encampment outside the Emergency Operation
Center here - that the count was done "in full view of public observers from
both parties and cameras from all over the world.
"All board members examined and voted on all questioned ballots and
nearly all votes were unanimous. . . . I will continue to be fair and
impartial and will not recuse myself."
Yesterday, Miss Roberts publicly challenged the election powers of
Secretary of State Katherine Harris, a Republican, in the recount dispute,
saying Attorney General Robert Butterworth, a Democrat, had the proper
authority. Mrs. Harris has been the target of Democrats, who claim she is
partisan and must recuse herself.
The partisan rancor has completely divided the sides in the manual
recount debate. Palm County's hand count was delayed yesterday pending the
state Supreme Court's opinion on the legal standing of the process.
The charge against Miss Roberts "is not a witch hunt," said Mark Hoch,
administrator for the county's Republican Party.
"We have complaints coming out of the woodwork, and most of the things
we look at are unsubstantiated," Mr. Hoch said. "Carol Roberts, though, can
be seen as truly partisan."
Miss Roberts arrived at the emergency center around 6:15 a.m. yesterday
with a sheriff's deputy bodyguard and a personal assistant. As a vocal
advocate of the manual count in both Palm Beach County and three other
surrounding - and Democrat-dominated -counties, Miss Roberts has thrived on
the controversy surrounding the recount.
At one point this week, Miss Roberts said she would go to jail to have
the manual recount accomplished. In Palm Beach County, recounts by hand and
machine have added 787 votes for Mr. Gore to an extra 119 for Mr. Bush - a
net Gore pick up of 668.
The affidavits filed yesterday also include charges that elections
workers were reluctant to reassess votes despite the protests of observers.
In one case, a worker refused to recount a stack of ballots that
contained Bush votes, according to observer Mark Klimer.
Mr. Klimer's statement included the accusation that Miss Roberts picked
up ballots from a stack that was to be evaluated later by the entire board
and interspersed them with a stack of Gore votes.
He also said the ballot evaluation was inconsistent. Some ballots
judged as Gore votes did not meet the agreed standards for a valid vote, the
West Palm Beach banker said.
Mr. Klimer said yesterday he was in the counting room for 4 and 1/2
hours on Saturday. A Republican, Mr. Klimer said his interest was not
partisan: "I was there to make sure it was fair."
"Beyond a shadow of a doubt, what I saw is the absolute truth," Mr.
Klimer said.
Miss Roberts is one of three Democrats on the seven-member County
Commission. She was elected in 1986 after serving 11 years on the West Palm
Beach City Council.
When she became president of the Florida Association of Counties in
1996, Miss Roberts took some heat for marking the occasion with three days
of festivities paid for with $55,000 from her business friends.
Visit our Election 2000 page
for daily election news and analysis
> >
> > Archpriest John W. Morris
>
> Your opinions would have been better stated without the Archpriest in
> front of your name. You are entitled to an opinion, and welcome to
> suggest illegalities, especially if substantiated, but.......people
> might mistakenly think htat you represent CHURCH opinion.
How else should I sign my name. That is who I am. Anyone with any sense
knows that I am only expressing my opinion.
Barros
11/16/00 12:12 PM:
>
>
> Atsaves wrote:
>>
>> In my state (Illinois) "dimples" don't count on punch cards as they can also
>> be
>> interpreted that the voter was ready to punch the hole, but then changed his
>> mind. The "chad" must be perforated in part for the vote to count. As a
>> former election judge, I can tell you that inspecting ballots in such a
>> fashion
>> is a major pain in the posterior glutemus maximus! Hard on the eyes too! We
>> used to average 750 voters in our precinct. If the machine registered less
>> than 700 votes for the highest office, based on 750 votes cast, we are
>> instructed to inspect the ballots on the spot to see if the machine screwed
>> up
>> or if the voters truly intended to vote for no one (or in the alternative,
>> vote
>> for both candidates for an office). We then look at the "chad" and arrive at
>> a
>> decision and report how many ballots were handled in such a fashion, and
>> initial each ballot so inspected and counted so someone later could double
>> check on us through a formal recount. (That way they don't have to go
>> through
>> several hundred thousand ballots, they limit it to the initialed ones!)
>>
>> But what's this stuff in Florida about most ballots being counted in
>> centralized locations by machine only, and not by the election judges in the
>> precincts? Talk about potential for mischief!
>>
>> Here, we count them in the precincts, sign off on the numbers we find, then
>> we
>> drive them to the local county clerk and sign a receipt for them. If they
>> need
>> to be recounted later on, they are done at the clerks' office. We don't
>> leave
>> them behind, or let someone else stroll out the door with the ballot box(es)
>> with ballots not being counted yet! How neanderthal! How preposterous! No
>> wonder why they are having so much trouble counting! They only thing we leave
>> behind is the equipment that gets picked up the next day!
>>
>> And that's compared to Cook County for crying out loud! Sheesh!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Louis Geo. Atsaves
>>
>
>
> Oh, we've got a professional on our newsgroup! Great to hear how it
> works, Louis. But speaking of Neanderthal, why were y'all using that
> punchcard method at all when there were ambiguous results on a regular
> basis enough to note a chad punching/perforation rule?
>
> I love our machines like I used in this election. You punch a button
> and it registers a light next to the person of your vote. If you didn't
> like it, or you pressed the button wrong, you can punch it again....and
> again and again until the little lights shine on whoever you wish. Only
> after the whole process is done, you push the vote button on the lower
> right hand side, a big giant one. This opens the curtain in the booth.
> the previous ones we had had a lever to register the final vote, which
> some weaker people had a hard time effecting, so I found the new
> machines an improvement.
WOW ! and I thought I didn't understand the instructions... I tried to "turn
off " my vote but it didn't work...
A.T.
Barros
>> on an election in a state so varied. I know Illinois isn't exactly
>> monochrome, but Florida's a whole other country. Outside of Chicago and
>> E. St. Louis, it's fairly bland and whitebread.
>
> Define whitebread
>
nskov
"Atsaves" <ats...@aol.com> wrote in message > Not only is our election
being decided by a bunch of incompetents in Florida
> who cant count, read a ballot, perform a hand count, and want to end it
before
> everyone's vote is counted, . . .
"want to end it before everyone's vote is counted". You know, I get sick
and tired of hearing these old worn out statements. Are you really saying
that everyone's vote has not been counted? How many times do they have to
be counted before everyone's vote is counted? Whose has not been counted?
The ones that were punched twice? Or the ones that after the voters returned
home....."thought " that they had mistakenly voted for Buchanan? What were
the first two counts all about? Now, we have a bunch of Democrats looking
for fictitious Gore votes by trying to determine what the "intent" of the
voters was. Boy, we sure have deteriorated into a banana republic. And
these old senile bingo players are actually signing petitions that state
that they swear that they think they voted wrong. This whole episode is
characteristic of the Clinton/Gore administration. Honesty and character
are long gone with this bunch of jerks. Gore picked a real winner by
having Daley act as a hatchet man to represent him. His father taught him
a lot on how to rig elections.
Barros
ats...@aol.com wrote on 11/16/00 5:20 PM:
> Why does most of the nation still use punch cards? Because its cheaper than
> some of the more accurate electronic stuff being used today!
>
> Bet after this election lots and lots of counties in this country will start
> spending some money to upgrade!
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
Hope so...that'd be worth the 'cost' of this election
Steve Nichols
> It's the apopaclypse i tell you!
>
> First I hear of Chads becoming pregnant! then I hear of Chads dangling in
> public! What next? Cats and dogs mating with each other?????
No -- individual inspection of the chads. Close up. By hand.
> armageddon outta here....
It's clear that we're in the last daze.
> Mother Tula
Is this Mother Tula Lulalula -- the Irish nun in the Japanese
Orthodox Church??
(No offense whatsoever intended to either Irish or Japanese)
/Papa Oomawmaw
(No offense intended to surfin' birds)
SergienkoL
First I hear of Chads becoming pregnant! then I hear of Chads dangling in
public!
What next? Cats and dogs mating with each other?????
armageddon outta here....
Mother Tula
evagr...@my-deja.com
Have it your way. I couldn't stand listening to such a personage who's
so proud of his ignorance.
He's an outstanding example of porkus Americanus. The perfect type of
American that makes non-Americans wince.
Do you know he can't even walk a block to get a sandwich?
In article <ljYQ5.249$rs4....@nntp2.onemain.com>,
"Rob Osborn" <osb...@complianceinc.com> wrote:
> Mr. Vasquez,
>
> More than I trust you.
>
> <evagr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8v1ifb$1h5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Mr. Osborn,
> >
> >
> >
> > You're gonna trust the Limbaugher?
> >
> >
> > In article <%CXQ5.59$BS1...@nntp3.onemain.com>,
> > "Rob Osborn" <osb...@complianceinc.com> wrote:
> > > I heard it on the Rush Limbaugh show. Apparently Mary Matalin
went
> > to the
> > > Palm Beach election site and indicated that the 19,000 ballets
were,
> > in
> > > fact, ballets that were discarded because of voter error. And,
that
> > the
> > > voters were given new ballots to cast.
> > >
> > > > > > > news:4mnQ5.751$S43.39254@bgtnsc06-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > nick cobb wrote in message
<3A11EE60...@cris.com>...
> > > > > > > > >Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida,
has
> > > stopped
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >hand-counting of ballots.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just like St. Katherine stopped the pagan philosophers
and
> > > schemers of
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > > day, and no doubt she'll be martyred too.
> > > > > > > > BTW, is Jesse Jackson on the faculty of SVS these days?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John: Nick Cobb, the ultra liberal, Clinton-loving, SVS
> > graduate,
> > > never
> > > > > did
> > > > > > > and never will speak for St. Vlad's. After all, even "The
> > Reader"
> > > > > attended
> > > > > > > SVS.
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <8v1p8q$7np$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Polichinello <crash_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <3A145659...@my-deja.com>,
> GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Polichinello wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the ads run by the NAACP, you have to be suspicious though.
> There
> > > was genuine hatred ginned up against Bush. That kind of tribalism
is
> not
> > > good. Particularly as Bush has done a lot to include minorities in
> the
> > > GOP, and in Texas government. There's an us against them mentality
> > > siezing hold of the country, and this is one of the most visible
> > > manifestations.
> >
> > I find your use of the word "tribalism" when discussing an
> > Afro-American organization particularly appalling.
>
> What? That's the word to described ethnic block behavior. Tribalism.
It
> has nothing to do with race.
>
> > >
> > > There are other irregularities as well. Absentee military ballots
> were
> > > sent bulk rate 4th class instead of first class, and after being
> cast
> > > were delayed yet further by the post.
> >
> > That is unfortunate but ought have no efect on who anyone voted for
>
> If they didn't get their ballots, that's a problem. If they were
> hampered, that's a problem. If the ballots are delayed in transit,
> that's a problem.
>
> > In Philadelphia absentee ballots
> > > were passed around black churches filled out under watchful eyes
and
> > > returned to proctors.
> >
> > Can you point to a URL to substantiate such an accusation in terms
of
> > the "watchful eyes"?
>
> http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2000/11/15/recount/print.html
>
> > >God only knows
> >
> > SInce you rarely discuss theological or Church oriented issues on
this
> > forum, and this is another example of your not discussing the same,
> > could you respectfully limit your use of the word "God" in
association
> > with your partisan politics. I will remind you that I am a
> conservative
> > as I suggest this.
>
> From someone who spent a great deal of time starting her own personal
> crusade on threads of her own initiation, that's a rather strange
> comment.
Ah......but those are her very own "special" topics!
Over the past couple of years, I've addressed mainly
> theological issues. I didn't start this thread. Nick did, and I
> responded to it.
>
> I think saying "God only knows" is an apt description of the
situation.
> After all, He is, by definition, omniscient. Therefore, it would
follow,
> that off all beings, God would certainly know, particularly as we
really
> don't know how many non-citizens voted in our elections.
>
> Or are you suggesting that God is not omniscient?
>
> > how many non-citizens were given
> > > ballots in addition to the millions hustled through by the
> politicized
> > > INS.
> > >
> > > However, all in all, I'm thinking Bush should look at conceding.
> Gore
> > > will be severely weakened as president. He'll have to deal with
Sen.
> > > Clinton's ambitions and an opposition legislature. Also, Gore
> doesn't
> > > have the talents of Bill Clinton, so he's most likely going to
lose
> even
> > > further seats in the mid-term election. If Bush hangs tight, he'll
> be in
> > > a good spot to run again in 2004. (It's going to be rather
difficult
> > > after last night though.)
> > >
> > > The only thing that galls me is that the Clintons are going to get
> away
> > > with murder one more time. But, low-lifes that they are, they are
> not
> > > worth ripping the country apart.
> >
> > Thank you for your opinion.
>
> You're quite welcome.
>
> Best Regards,
> Derek Copold
> --
> http://www.houstonreview.com
> Houston's Conservative News Source
>
nick cobb
frjohn wrote:
> "nick cobb" <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
> news:3A11EE60...@cris.com...
> > Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has stopped the
> > hand-counting of ballots.
> >
> > ALL Americans should be up in arms.
>
> I agree, we should be up in arms. Gore and the Democrats are trying to steal
> the election buy phony hand recounts that give their people the opportunity
> to assign votes to Gore on the basis of their personal interpretation of the
> supposed intent of the voter who cast a flawed ballot. It is really very
> simple, if someone is too stupid to read the directions and cast their vote
> properly, they are too stupid to vote.
> Unfortunately, Florida is not the only place where Gore and his people have
> tried to steal this election. They illegally kept the polls open in
> Democratic areas of Missouri several hours beyond the legal limit. Although
> they did not steal enough votes to keep Bush from taking the state, they did
> succeed in electing a dead man to the U.S. Senate. In Milwaukee, students
> have admitted that they voted more than once. In the same town, Gore workers
> were bribing homeless men to vote for Gore with cigarettes.
> Here in Shreveport, Gore and his supporters have convinced the blacks that
> if Bush wins they will have to go back to slavery. Gore supporters also
> called homes and told people that if Bush is elected workers will lose their
> right to overtime pay. Finally, all over the country, black churches
> violated IRS rules and became involved in the effort to elect Gore.
>
> Archpriest John W. Morris
Atsaves
conspiracy theorists will have a field day with this one! Mary Matalin was .
. . .
(drum roll please)
. . . . born and raised on the South Side (i.e. "Daley Country") of
Chicago! -:)
Isn't she the one who later married that Ragin Cajun who ran Clinton's campaign
"It's the Economy Stupid!" years ago? (I forget his name at the moment -
another brain spasm over all this stuff!)
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: "Rob Osborn" osb...@complianceinc.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 2:38 PM
Message-id: <%CXQ5.59$BS1...@nntp3.onemain.com>
I heard it on the Rush Limbaugh show. Apparently Mary Matalin went to the
Palm Beach election site and indicated that the 19,000 ballets were, in
fact, ballets that were discarded because of voter error. And, that the
voters were given new ballots to cast.
GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3A143E13...@my-deja.com...
>
>
> Rob Osborn wrote:
> >
> > Mr.Cobb,
> >
> > I don't think that 19,000 ballets were arbitrarily dismissed. In fact,
they
> > were discarded and the voters were allowed to re-cast their votes.
> >
> > This is what I have heard through the media, anyway. Please don't
forget
> > that 15,000 ballets were discarded from the same county and voting area
in
> > 1996. It seems that they have a history or botching their vote.
> >
> > Peace
> >
> > Rob
>
> Please give some indication that you are right as to those 19,000 +
> discarded ballots being revoted. That is not what I am reading in the
> Washington Post unless I missed something..
>
>
> >
> > nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
> > news:3A1345AD...@cris.com...
> > > Well John, I'm not Clinton-loving, nor an ultra-liberal. "The Reader"
was
> > a
> > > reject and there have been many.
> > >
> > > Ms. Harris is trying to throw the election. There can be no fair
election
> > when
> > > 19,000 votes are arbitrarily dismissed!
> > >
> > > This has nothing to do with Liberalism. It has everything to do with a
> > fair
> > > election with proper counting in Florida!
>
> One tends to agree with Nick. One thing I found amazingly mismanaged
> was having different formats in different counties for voting. Does
> anyone know if this is the case in other states?
>
> > >
> > >
> > > nskov wrote:
> > >
> > > > "John Peters" <hoodp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:4mnQ5.751$S43....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > nick cobb wrote in message <3A11EE60...@cris.com>...
> > > > > >Well, Katherine Harris, Secretary of State in Florida, has
stopped
> > the
> > > > > >hand-counting of ballots.
> > > > >
> > > > >
Atsaves
some of the more accurate electronic stuff being used today!
Bet after this election lots and lots of counties in this country will start
spending some money to upgrade!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: GS oh...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 2:12 PM
Message-id: <3A143FB5...@my-deja.com>
Atsaves
end (rhyming of course) and bringing the U.S. government to a complete halt!
On second thought . . .
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Polichinello crash_...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 1:35 PM
Message-id: <8v1ct8$sak$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Support D.C. statehood. Then you can call the Reverend "Senator," and
never see him again, except on holidays or CNN. :)
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
In article <20001116133725...@ng-fk1.aol.com>,
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> Hey Grace!
>
> In Illinois, we rejected Jesse Jackson twice! We are always trying to
ship him
> out to stir up things whenever we can!
>
> Problem is, everyone keeps sending him back to us! Maybe those little
old
> ladies in Palm Beach will think he's cute and keep him!
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
>
> << Subject: Re: Katherine Harris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> From: walke...@aol.com (Walkermonk)
> Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 6:50 PM
> Message-id: <20001115195047...@ng-fr1.aol.com>
>
> Shouldn't the fact that Gore couldn't win his home state (where I
live) tell
> the rest of the country something?? We know him, and we don't want
him.
>
> Grace Walker Monk
>
> >>
>
>
--
Atsaves
Don't go changing my vote now! I already voted for the Celebrity Death
Matches!
But wait! Can I vote again?
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Katherine Harris
From: evagr...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Nov 16, 2000 3:39 PM
Message-id: <8v1k76$339$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Mr. Atsaves,
I prefer the Klingon Death Match. It's more virile, if you know what I
mean.
Besides.......we'd at least have a physically fit president.
In article <20001116160147...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
> Now, this I like!
>
> Regards,
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
>
> << My husband thinks they should do a Celebrity Death Match with
wives and VPs
> taking turns too.
>
> Grace Walker Monk >>
Polichinello
GS <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Polichinello wrote:
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > First of all, I never said the Daleys were stupid. Immoral,
ruthless
> > > > and potentially evil, yes, but not stupid.
> > >
> > > Substantiate in the case of the Daley involved.
> >
> > Daley has out and out stated that whatever it takes, he'll get his
man
> > in office. He doesn't care about legalities or the law. We already
know
> > about the Senior Daley's activities.
>
> In the first point, you cannot infer illegality through such a
> statement, secondly, Daley Junior is not his father. Judge him on his
> own merits and demerits....but substantiate generalizations and
> characterizations amounting to blanket condemnations and libelous
> statement with fact, not innuendo.
I can most certainly infer it if I like. He's abused the manual recount
provision, which was in place for mechanical failure, to advance his
man to the White House. He's done irreparable damage to the office, no
matter who makes it there. That makes him ruthless, immoral and
potentially evil in my view.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Florida is now undergoing a nationwide rectal exam on prime-
time TV.
> > >
> > > Was that necessary on our Orthodox newsgroup?
> >
> > Sorry.
>
> That's the boy
> >
> > > >
> > > > I feel that Al Gore is unquestionably the lowest form of
> > > > life on two legs, save maybe the Clintons, but the nation is
already
> > > > perilously divided, and civil war may be an option in a
generation
> > if
> > > > things keep going this way. Not even Al Gore is worth that.
> > >
> > > I find your characterization of Gore specious
> >
> > Let's begin with "the greatest president in history" and go to Red
> > Chinese fundraisers. I have serious basis for this belief.
>
> He is a good solid family man with good moral instincts. His wife's a
> sweetie, too. I have seroius basis for this belief.
Great. Hitler loved dogs. So what? He sold his soul for Red Chinese
contributions and his integrity to cover for his Boss' illegality.
> >
> > > and your atittude that
> > > our
> > > nation is on the verge of a Civil War and perilously divided
downright
> > > silly
> >
> > You don't go out west much, do you?
>
> I was in Arizona this summer. Rest my case
Go to Kingman.
>
> We're not on the verge, but we are
> > on our way.
>
> Sun bakes too many heads down there. Just joking of course b ut the
> rest of the country is ho hum on this....
It's called sullen resentment. People notice what's going on.
> If you don't believe me take a look at the county-by-county
> > map. The reds and the blues are disagreeing on issues that don't
lend
> > themselves to compromise. This is not a good situation.
> >
> > > > Also, I'm not sure you understand the problems
> > >
> > > Actually, I think he does understand a varied electorate. He's
from
> > > Chicago
> >
> > Well, duh. I said just that.
>
> Look at the sentence again.
Again, well, duh, I said just that.
> >
> > > with maintaining a watch
> > > > on an election in a state so varied. I know Illinois isn't
exactly
> > > > monochrome, but Florida's a whole other country. Outside of
Chicago
> > and
> > > > E. St. Louis, it's fairly bland and whitebread.
> > >
> > > Define whitebread
>
> Whoops. WOuldn't touch that one, wouldya?
Missed it. It's a mix of northern european ethnicities. All English
speaking, none particularly tied to european homelands.
> > >
> > > Florida's a lot
> > > > different. Much of the state speaks Spanish,
> > >
> > > So does one-fifth of the Washington, D.C. area.
> >
> > Much smaller area.
>
> Uh, come again?
> >
> > > Define "much"
> >
> > A whole bunch. 30-40% of a state encompassing an area that would
swallow
> > hundreds of DC's and Chicagos.
>
> Area or population?
Area and population
> >
> > > > some counties are Jewish,
> > >
> > > Same as a lot of other areas of the country. Is this bad?
> >
> > No. It's different.
> >
> > > > others redneck,
> > > Define "redneck". By this do you mean agricultural or something
else?
> >
> > Something like that, yes.It's also encompasses a Southern culture.
>
> I doubt you are a part of that culture and I doubt you understand it.
Really? I grew up down here in Texas (after third grade), and I was
stationed in South Carolina for 9 months. I got more of feel than you
do in Maryland.
> >
> > > others predominantly black.
> > >
> > > Baltimore, Maryland is over 60% Afro-American. Is this unusual?
> >
> > Maryland is much smaller, and Baltimore has known more than a few
cases
> > of ballot rigging BTW.
>
> Uh, Baltimore population is larger than that some foreign
> countries....
It isn't bigger than the state of Florida.
> >
> > > Actually, take Chicago and
> > > > expand it into an area the size of Florida, and you see the
problem.
> > >
> > > What problem might this be? That Americans come from diverse
> > > backgrounds?
> >
> > Are you just going to give me happy-clappy yip-yap, or address the
> > problem.
>
> You are NOT addressing the question.
It's right below. Read again.
> Different cultures, different languages over a far larger area
> > make for a very difficult environment within which monitor votes.
> >
> > > I
> > > > worked as a Republican poll watcher in South Texas (an 85%
> > Democratic
> > > > region), and even with a popular Republican governor in the
state,
> > it
> > > > was just impossible to cover each and every station in the
area. We
> > > > didn't have the people there, and it isn't so easy shipping them
> > down
> > > > from Houston or Dallas on a Tuesday.
> > >
> > > Whyever not? I been there and noted that there are major highways
> > into
> > > the area...
> >
> > Houston is 6 hours away, Dallas 10. It's impractical when your
> > volunteers all work for a living.
>
> The cost of democracy.......Are you suggesting that Democrats have a
> better volunteer service standard?
It's called patronage. Pachanga politics.
> That they are not working for a
> living and can do better poll duty? What?
Oh, yeah. I knew a patron that would pay $50 to these guys. In addition
to the government bennys, they made out pretty well.
> >
> > > When I look at the maps of Palm
> > > > Beach and Miami-Dade, I see a situation similar to the Rio
Grande
> > > > Valley.
>
> You ever been down there?
I stopped at Holmstead when I was flying in the Air Force. I can also
read demographic information as well.
>
> > >
> > > And that would be what? Poll watcher preference to not go to
certain
> > > locales? What?
> >
> > Obviously, there are preferences. You also have to travel miles, not
> > blocks, between very different precincts.
>
> Poor babies.....
Again, this would justify ballot stuffing.
> >
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes,
Mistake
> > > > One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for
them,
> > >
> > > I am sure that a seasoned diplomat like James Baker will
appreciate
> > your
> > > characterization of him.
> >
> > Baker blew the 92 election, and he's blowing this one as well. I
> > couldn't care less what he thinks. He may be a seasoned diplomat,
but
> > when it comes to politics, he isn't so hot.
>
> So you would not only be proud of your characterization of this
seasoned
> diplomat and would even expand upon your dislike and disapproval of
his
> life contributions in addition to his efforts for and support of the
> Bush campaign?
Oh yeah.
> > > > I'm not saying the Bush campaign hasn't made a few mistakes,
Mistake
> > > One being that they sent that old lady Baker down to front for
them,
>
> > > I am sure that a seasoned diplomat like James Baker will
appreciate your
> characterization of him.
>
> By the way, is there anything negative, in your mind, about older
> > > women?
>
> Whoa....wouldn't touch that question either, wouldya boy.
It was so petty, it wasn't worth my time. Something you'd expect you'd
expect from a vieja.
> I take it you
> will not be so cavalierly using phrases like "old ladies" so
flippantly
> in the future?
Baker is an old woman. A nag. An ineffective crone past his time. Want
me to go on? He whines, he mewls. He's proven to be a PR disaster and
not up to the task. Want some more? Do you want to keep pettifogging
the conversation with these nits? You won't intimidate me on this
point. If you don't like my phrasing, too bad. I don't particularly
care at this point, so any callouts you make will either be ignored or
mocked mercilessly.
> Or calling James Baker one?
Baker's a public figure. He's fair game for criticism.
No one's cursing. It's a turn of phrase. I believe we acknowledge the
existence of Hell, and define it as a tough place to be.
> >
> > > for Gore to go out and bomb someone in the name of
> > > > democracy when he owes his office to a court ruling.
> > >
> > > Although I was against the bombing of Kosovo (Bombing is never the
> > > answer), as I assume you refer to, the reason for doing so was
based
> > on
> > > an escalation of horrifying civil and human rights abuses. It
was not
> > > Gore, by the way, who bombed anyone but NATO, of which the United
> > States
> > > was a part. There was bi-partisan aproval for the bombing,
> > > unfortunately.
> >
> > Not really. The usual GOP cowards headed for the high grass
of "support
> > the troops," but most of GOP House delegation voted to stop the war.
>
> This is a disingenous response.
No. It's direct. The Kosovo action wasn't as bi-partisan as you're
making it out to be. When Congress ties on a resolution to revoke
spending for a military campaign in progress, you don't have full bi-
partisan support. The only thing that kept it going was Clinton's
blatant flaunting of the Constitution when he failed to consult
Congress and ordered the bombing.
And don't give me that NATO BS. We know who runs the show over there.
Polichinello
> >
> > >
>
> >
> > They've already caught one shmegegi running around Palm Beach with
> > a voting machine. A supervisor in Florida was punching out chads,
and
> > there are charges of malfeasance now pending against Carol Roberts,
and
> > the likes of Paul Begala, Bill Daley and Jesse Jackson are goons.
> >
> > I call it as I see it. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.
>
> I will continue to comment on in appropriate language in posts on this
> religious newsgroup. You don't like my commentary....killfile
> me.....please
Forget it. I don't killfile.
Polichinello
He's mellowed out considerably in the past few years. I've heard the
point about the spoiled ballots being "mulligans" as well. I can't
remember where. It wasn't Mary Matalin though.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
In article <8v1tc4$bbt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
http://www.houstonreview.com
Houston's Conservative News Source