Response I received from the Episcopal Church
T254
regarding the absence of any Orthodox Christian representation. I personally
find it insulting.
Can someone please tell me what he means by this - "In fact only the three
Abrahamic traditons were asked to provide that service to the president and
the nation. " Doesn't he realize that Orthodoxy is the original Abrahamic
continuation within Christianity? When and how can Billy Graham trace his
churches lineage to the Abrahamic traditions within Christianity? For that
matter how can he as an Episcopalian?
To be quite honest with you all, this reply angers me more the the original
oversight.
Bob
===================================================================
Dear Mr. Tallick,
Thank you for your message concerning the service last Friday at Washington
National Cathedral. Had the liturgy been designed as an ecumenical service,
I have no doubt that members of the Orthodox community would have been asked
to provide significant leadership roles. However the White House asked the
Cathedral to provide the venue for the service and it was determined early
on that it would be an interfaith event. Given the very large number of
religious communities in the US it is clear that not every group--however
significant--could be asked to provide leadership. In fact only the three
Abrahamic traditons were asked to provide that service to the president and
the nation. We hope that all baptized Christians found great comfort in
noting that a clear Christian witness was sounded in prayer, song,
preaching, and Holy Scripture.
Please share this information with your Orthodox friends who may also have
wondered why this was not an ecumenical event. And please keep us in your
prayers.
Charis kai eirene,
Roy J. Enquist
-----------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: Prayer Service at the National Cathedral
Date: Saturday, September 22, 2001 5:02:30 PM
From: enq...@starpower.net
To: T2...@aol.com
From: enq...@starpower.net (mia enquist)
To: T2...@aol.com
Dear Mr. Tallick,
Thank you for your message concerning the service last Friday at Washington
National Cathedral. Had the liturgy been designed as an ecumenical service,
I have no doubt that members of the Orthodox community would have been asked
to provide significant leadership roles. However the White House asked the
Cathedral to provide the venue for the service and it was determined early
on that it would be an interfaith event. Given the very large number of
religious communities in the US it is clear that not every group--however
significant--could be asked to provide leadership. In fact only the three
Abrahamic traditons were asked to provide that service to the president and
the nation. We hope that all baptized Christians found great comfort in
noting that a clear Christian witness was sounded in prayer, song,
preaching, and Holy Scripture.
Please share this information with your Orthodox friends who may also have
wondered why this was not an ecumenical event. And please keep us in your
prayers.
Charis kai eirene,
Roy J. Enquist
robert G Tallick
T254
>Abrahamic traditons were asked to provide that service to the president
>and
My reply -
Perhaps then you can explain to me and my fellow Orthodox Christians why there
was Buddhist representation. Where is the connection to Abrahamic traditions
within Buddhism?
Robert G Tallick
robert G Tallick
GS
Since when do we allow the Protestants to determine our ecclesiastical fitness for
service?
Ferguson
- I think he is trying to say that we were represented by those who
spoke. When we pursue accepatnce this is the result. Billy Graham (who
I respect and like) can represent all of us. When we are just a part
of the ecumenical herd we are well just that.
- Do you have a good URL that contains clear information about the
event and list of speakers? I do plan to plan to send a msg myself.
Frankly it will not matter but I feel better. Why won't it matter
because this was a political event not a religious event. Orthodox are
obviously not a part of the power elite at this point.
- Yes the msg in reply is insulting in tone.
- Orthodox bring alot of discredit on themselves - by infighting and
over ethnic identification. Certainly the infighting of RC and
Protestants does not effect their influence - becasue they have
temporal power and influence. The Orthodox chruch in America does not
have temporal power. Do Orthodox represent any ethnic/racial groups
that politicans need to get in with? Do Orthodox have connections to
any rich countries or countries of influence? Do Orthodox control a
block of votes? Do we vote on moral issues in a particulair way?
Does one have to apeal to the Orthodox Church in order to tap into any
wealthy people?
- I in no way am a grand supporter of most of the ecumenical nonsense
- it is simply a waste of time and effort. This clearly shows the
uselessness of the Orthodox pursuit to be like eveyone else.
We Orthodox simply need to be Orthodox, stop the infighting, and stop
looking for acceptance in the world.
Nektarios
-------------------------------------------
(T254) wrote
Scott Wilcox
" Doesn't he realize that Orthodoxy is the original Abrahamic
> continuation within Christianity?
peace and believing the best about others. Yes, it was a mistake, but to
immediately be so offended as to make inflammatory accusations of ill will,
is to fall into the roots of the world crisis we find ourselves in.
We Orthodox are speaking very conflicting messages concerning our distaste
for ecumenism/interfaith practice vs. wanting to be included and yet seen as
the "true faith". This is not the time, I think, to be reacting to this
oversight. To be offended and start seeing others in this light is not
helpful, but fuels more anger and hatred.
When and how can Billy Graham trace his
> churches lineage to the Abrahamic traditions within Christianity?
Well....again the rhetoric you use would indicate that you indeed see no
connection at all with Billy Grahams' faith with that of Abraham and his
tradition. Yes, we christians may debate apostolic succession, etc, but to
question any lineage or connection, you have fallen into serious accusations
here, in your reaction about "not being included". I was and am not
horrified at the idea of having Billy Graham represent me as an American
Christian at that service.
For that
> matter how can he as an Episcopalian?
>
again, not very charitable words...
> To be quite honest with you all, this reply angers me more the the
original
> oversight.
>
love believes all things. Could it just possibly have been an oversight and
not an attack on your "Holy Faith". Let's not use the language that incites
yet another "Holy War" in our land and among christian brothers and sisters
here in America.
Scott
T254
>connection at all with Billy Grahams' faith with that of Abraham and his
>tradition.
Only in the sense that he labels it as 'Christian'. But I certainly don't see
it as the continuation and the fulfillment of the prophecies. And certainly
not the identified continuation of the Abrahamic traditions that has the the
right to speak for Christian traditions that are 1600 or more years older.
That's like having a 6th grader speak on behalf of everyone. Including college
graduates.
I have a deep respect for Doctor Graham but he does not speak for me nor my
religion. We do not share the same faith or doctrines.
Do you think that any Roman Catholic would agree he speaks for them also?
There are probably many Protestant denominations that would also say the same
thing.
I have no objection to what he said. But my tradition has special prayers for
the repose of the soul's who have departed this life. I would have liked to
have seen them prayed along with the eloquent words uttered by Dr Graham.
>Love believes all things. Could it just possibly have been an oversight
>and
>not an attack on your "Holy Faith".
If it was just an oversight, then why wasn't it mentioned in the reply?
Bob
robert G Tallick
Scott Wilcox
Cunneen
religion. We do not share the same faith or doctrines.
Do you think that any Roman Catholic would agree he speaks for them also? >>
Well, Bob, although Graham doesn't share ALL the things we believe as
Catholics, he does share quite a bit. Often then he DOES speak for us.
You seem intent on putting DISTANCE between your Orthodoxy and the belief of
other Christians, to the point of exaggerating differences. Perhaps that's why
Orthodox didn't get invited to national prayer meetings -- it is perceived that
you'd rather not pray with the rest of us?
T254
>Catholics, he does share quite a bit. Often then he DOES speak for us.
>
So then I take it that you have no objections to having Dr Graham speak on
behalf of ALL CHRISTIANS in this matter. Including your Roman Catholic
Church?
Tell me. Are any of those 6000+ souls in purgatory? Dr Graham sure doesn't
think so. He would question it's existence. If he therefore speaks for all
Christians, then there is no need for any Roman Catholic to pray for the
suffering souls to be released from Purgatory because Dr Graham follows the
teachings of his Southern Baptist beliefs and denies it's existence. And Dr
Graham is speaking on behalf of ALL Christians.
>You seem intent on putting DISTANCE between your Orthodoxy and the belief
>of
>other Christians, to the point of exaggerating differences.
No. What I am pointing out is that are enough differences between us to
justify that Dr Graham, as a Protestant, cannot speak for either your church
nor mine. Our Christian concepts regarding death are not the same.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Steve Hayes
>- I in no way am a grand supporter of most of the ecumenical nonsense
>- it is simply a waste of time and effort. This clearly shows the
>uselessness of the Orthodox pursuit to be like eveyone else.
>We Orthodox simply need to be Orthodox, stop the infighting, and stop
>looking for acceptance in the world.
I agree. The whole discussion started because a Roman Catholic troll posting
here was trying to score points by making something of the absence of the
Orthodox at that event. In every Orthodox Church I have been in since
September 11, prayer has been offered for the dead and bereaved, and we are
8000 miles from New York.
That may not count much in the eyes of the world, but it surely counts where
it really matters.
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/stanmer/182/
Z and ALTR
Not all Orthodox would rather not pray with those who wish to offer prayers,
especially for those we now mourn who lost their lives in the senseless attack
on the WTC. Please read my post re WH Meeting, Pentagon visit, and Yankee
Stadium benediction by his Eminence Abp Demetrios.
Scott Wilcox
> Tell me. Are any of those 6000+ souls in purgatory? Dr Graham sure
doesn't
> think so. He would question it's existence.
But we all agree that they are indeed in the Lord's presence...whatever that
may mean.....right?...We ALL agree that the souls of those departed are in
God's hands. That's alot in common, and also worth mentioning, yes? You act
like Billy Graham has no concern whatever for the after life, and that is
wrong of you to insinuate.
If he therefore speaks for all
> Christians, then there is no need for any Roman Catholic to pray for the
> suffering souls to be released from Purgatory because Dr Graham follows
the
> teachings of his Southern Baptist beliefs and denies it's existence.
yet even those among our own, emphasize the importance of those doctrines
and practices differently. Many see them as more for our benefit rather than
those gone ahead of us.
And Dr
> Graham is speaking on behalf of ALL Christians.
>
>
> >You seem intent on putting DISTANCE between your Orthodoxy and the belief
> >of
> >other Christians, to the point of exaggerating differences.
>
> No. What I am pointing out is that are enough differences between us to
> justify that Dr Graham, as a Protestant, cannot speak for either your
church
> nor mine. Our Christian concepts regarding death are not the same.
We were not sating that he spoke for anyone's "church", only a shared faith
among all christians, which you seem to be offend by the very notion of.
Scott
>
> Bob
>
>
> robert G Tallick
T254
>among all christians, which you seem to be offend by the very notion of.
I'm offended regarding the answer I received. Apparently the Epscopal Church
does recognize differences amongst those from the continuation of the
Abrahamic traditions that call themselves Christians. Otherwise, why did he
invite the Roman Catholic Cardinal of Washington, the Episcopal Bishop of
Washington, but not the Orthodox Bishop of Washington, or any Orthodox Bishop
for that matter. The oldest Christian Church of the Abrahamic tradition
doesn't get equal time. It was a snub.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Scott Wilcox
> doesn't get equal time.
It was a snub.
I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt...forgive them for
their oversight and believe the best about their motives.....rather than
think evil of their intentions......but you do what you feel you need to...
Scott
GS
T254 wrote:
Dear Robert,
Sometimes it is a matter of counting one's blessings. One afternoon, my son
Theodore and I went to tour the National Cathedral, having a little extra time
after chruch. we did so and then it was time for evensong. We stayed. I wanted
him to hear the boys choir. The dear Reverend Canon Roy J. Enquist ws giving one
of the sermons (there were three sermonettes that evening) and he actually
managed to make Christ an equivocal kind of being and tie him somewhat in as kind
of Buddhist and Islamic. I don't remember his precise words, but it was the
worst sort of prevarication. I could not believe my ears, so I caught up with
him after the service , asking to speak to him. Evidently he is a high mucky
muck of some kind and I was told that one does not simply discuss sermons with
the "higher" clergy. I said that I thought it important, as the divinity of
Christ was apparently in question and could the fellow I was speaking to explain
the difference between higher and lower clergy, pleasze understand I am Orhtodox
and we do not make such differentiations, a Patriarch is the same as a street
cleaner. Basically, the upstart of all this is that I spoke with the dear
Reverend Canon (whatever Canon means in this context) about the matter of his
sermon and was informed that he agreed with me, that the divinity of Christ and
the Trinity as One in essence and undivided is true lbut that it is necessary in
the National cathedral to attract everyone to faith including people of other
faiths. By which I have the ditinct impression he meant Hindu and Muslim in
addition to Christian. I think I muttered something about God not being a
mutible and indefinite quantity subject to political reinterpretation and
politely thanked him especially since he had been gracious enough to flat out say
"You are right" and be nice about it.
So you see, had the Orthodox been invited, it might have been to enoble such
prevaricating theology. Had we been there, it might have been somewhat hard to
stomach.
Z and ALTR
absence of representation of the Orthodox Church at the National Prayer
Service. He suggests that I share it with my Orthodox friends. I will reply
to him myself, but if any of you want to comment to him, please do so. There
are many reasons we should perservere - not the least of which is that
Orthodoxy is the fourth major faith in this country - recognized by
Presidential decree. Therefore, to lump us as "other" Christian denominations
is not accurate. Denominations is a Protestant "thing."
Zoe
Thank your message concerning my e-mail note of clarification to Mr. Tallick.
Your raise many interesting questions which, I'm afraid, can't be dealt with
adequately via e-mail. What is needed is a much more sustained and deliberate
venue. Please feel free to let me know if you'd like to do that. I'm sure we
can work out something. I assume your questions were not rhetorical and that
you wish me to answer them. Here are very brief but, I believe, accurate
answers. 1. Dr. Graham was invited to deliver the sermon at the urging of the
joint planning committee consisting of White House and cathedral staff. It
clearly was physically difficult for him to respond positively to the
President's request. 2. Washington National Cathedral, since its founding,
sees as its mission to be (a) a House of Prayer for All People, (b) a great
church for national purposes, and (c) the chief mission church of the diocese
of Washington of the Episcopal Church. Clearly the cathedral on l4 September
primarly served the first two priorities. Do you know of any other churches
which regularly attempt to do this? 3. Of course the great Orthodox
churches--as all Christian churces-- are a part of the
Abrahamic tradition. The Orthodox churches were not the only significant
Christian churches not represented in leadership roles in our interfaith
service. Obviously, all could not be represented. This necessary
limitation, of course, is not a sign of disrespect, but does require
understanding. 4. Graduate education for clergy varies significantly from
seminary to seminary. Typically, however, church history is a required course
or sequence of courses. Leaders of all churches find that an understanding of
2000 years of history is essential for faithful ministeries in our time. This
is a formidable task facing all churches. But it is not impossible. I have
found, for example, that material of Orthodox provenance is increasingly used
in Roman Catholic and Protestant churches today.
Please feel free to share this information with your Orthodox friends. While
the service was not ecumenical, we now have an ecumenical opportunity awaiting
us as we pray that Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, will send us now into the
world in peace and will grant us strength and courage to love and serve Him
with gladness and singless of heart through Christ our Lord.
Charis kai eirene,
Roy J. Enquist
----- Original Message -----
From: Zand...@aol.com
To: enq...@starpower.net
Cc: archd...@goarch.org ; ortho...@thrace.ee.duth.gr
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 1:11 PM
Subject: National Prayer Service
The Rev. Canon Roy J. Enquist, Ph.D.,
Special Assistant to the Dean for Ecumenical and Interfaith Affairs
To Whom It May Concern:
My friend Mr. Robert Tallick has posted your reply to him re the National
Prayer service. I find your reference to the Three Abrahamic traditions to be
not only insulting but far off the truth - if that were the case, what was the
Rev. Billy Graham doing there? Why at the Episcopal Cathedral? In your
viewpoint, Catholics, Baptists and Episcopalians are part of the original
Abrahamic tradition, but not Orthodox. Baptists and Episcopalians were
protesting Catholicism 1500 years after the Resurrection and were certainly a
long way from Abraham. Orthodoxy and Catholicism were one church until 1054,
therefore, Orthodoxy is as much a "child" of Abrahamic tradition as, in your
opinion, Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians are. Or was it a way to include
Jews and Muslims to say that they were Abraham's desciples? If so, that was an
inspired idea, but if you are so insensitive to the hurt you have occasioned to
the Fourth Major Faith, it is a sad commentary on your interpretation of
Christ's message - a message that we Orthodox did much to spread in the early
days of the church, and which we kept alive even under 500 years of Ottoman
rule. May I respectfully suggest that a course in early Church history be made
a part of the theological studies of your clergy.
Grace and peace to you also, sir.
Dear Mr. Tallick,
Thank you for your message concerning the service last Friday at Washington
National Cathedral. Had the liturgy been designed as an ecumenical service,
I have no doubt that members of the Orthodox community would have been asked
to provide significant leadership roles. However the White House asked the
Cathedral to provide the venue for the service and it was determined early
on that it would be an interfaith event. Given the very large number of
religious communities in the US it is clear that not every group--however
significant--could be asked to provide leadership. In fact only the three
Abrahamic traditons were asked to provide that service to the president and
the nation. We hope that all baptized Christians found great comfort in
noting that a clear Christian witness was sounded in prayer, song,
preaching, and Holy Scripture.
Please share this information with your Orthodox friends who may also have
wondered why this was not an ecumenical event. And please keep us in your
prayers.
Charis kai eirene,
Roy J. Enquist
From: <T2...@aol.com>
To: <enq...@starpower.net>
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Prayer Service at the National Cathedral
> To Whom It May Concern:
>
> As an Orthodox Christian, I was deeply saddened to see that there was no
> Orthodox Christian Hierarch present at last week's prayer service to
> represent the fourth major religious faith in the United States. In
> investigating this oversight it has come to my attention that no formal
> invitation was issued to any Orthodox Christian Hierarch to represent the
six
> million Orthodox Christians who reside in this country. The vast majority
of
> them being either born or nationalized citizens of our country.
> I would appreciate a reply that would explain why this oversight occurred.
> Especially since there are not one, but two Orthodox Christian Cathedrals
> with in a two block radius of the National Cathedral.
> Chances are that there were also a percentage of Orthodox Christians who
were
> amongst those who have perished. Yet we did not have the opportunity to
> express our sorrow and pray with our fellow Americans at your Cathedral.
To
> pray for our own as well as all the others who have perished. I speak for
> millions of Orthodox Christians who are insulted and deeply hurt by this
> insult to our Holy faith.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> Robert G Tallick
Serge
You should. Though it probably wouldn't influence such treatment of the
Orthodox much, because as you say 'Orthodox are
obviously not a part of the power elite at this point' - a small minority.
<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus'</a>
JOH...@webtv.net
Many Orthodox in this NG have adopted the old ( Latinist )
Catholic 'TRIUMPHALIST " atitude, Orthodoxy is the True faith your
all heretics we dont associate with heretics.
This is most evident in Russia and Greece and any country where the
Orthodox church is the state religion.
Orthodox churchs were forced to Join organisations such as the World
Council of churchs and other Protestant Ecumenical organisations for
political reasons.
In America,it has been much harder for the Orthodox churchs to maintain
this atitude,the standoffishness,is considered Un-American.
The strong hold of ethnicity in the various Orthodox churchs is also a
liability when it comes to their being considered ' American".
Oh there are strong ethnic feeligs in, Irish,Polish, portugese, or
Italian Catholics as well,but. There is no question as to where their
loyalties lie ,they are AMERICANS.When the United States was at war with
Italy, it was a war with a country ,Italy. Not the Catholic church!!
American Catholics by the hundreds of thousands served with no qualms.
Recently the war with Serbia,many Orthodox in this country tried to make
it look like it was a war against Orthodoxy,not a country ,Serbia.
The lack of support for the United States among the Orthodox in this
country was noticeable and regretable
Marina
No?
I didn't think so.
Come back when you've read a book and not the Catholic version of a Chick
tract.
Thankfully, most members of the Roman Catholic Church show considerably more
intelligence, learning and understanding about Orthodoxy than anything you
have written on this list.
Marina
GS
Sister in Christ Marina wrote, presumably to Cunneen:
Dana Netherton
said ...
>
>
> Sister in Christ Marina wrote, presumably to Cunneen:
No, Galina, this was to <JOH...@webtv.net>.
--
(Mr) Dana Netherton
dana 1 netherton 2 net, where "1" = at, and "2" = dot
--------
I don't belong to an organized religion.
I'm Eastern Orthodox.