Consecration - Christ the Saviour Cathedral
T254
My friend Taras, who along with his family, attended the consecration answers
Father Gerards jibes and percentage comments. Apparently the attendence inside
the Cathedral was limited to 16,000 for security reasons. However, as he
states the were thousands outside the Cathederal where the consecration service
was broadcast and large TV screens were set up. This clearly shows up on the
video he sent me.
Taras and his family had VIP invitations, and as such were up on the Ambo at
the left side of the Iconostasis. So some of the shots in the video give a
panoramic view of the crowds within the Cathedral. A sight to behold! While
the Patriarch, followed by the other Orthodox Patriarchs and Bishops were in
procession around the outside of the Cathedral with the relics to be inserted
into the Altar, Taras had a Deacon film the inside of the Sanctuary with the
Patriarchal throne etc.
Anyhow, here is Taras reply to our resident troll -
======================================================
Bob,
When a bad artist looks at a wonderful painting in a museum he may feel
that he would never be able to make something similar to that. So, out of
jealousy he may decide to destroy the famous work. But, this is not going
to improve his own talent. It is always easier to break, than to create. It
is always easier to "pour dirt" on something than to clean it off. I know
many people (including majority of Russian TV channels and public
newspapers) who wanted to see only negative results of the Jubilee Council
of Bishops. They diminished significance of the Consecration of the
Cathedral of Christ the Savior. They hated the fact that numerous new
saints and confessors of Orthodox faith had been glorified. That's why it
is not a surprise that another person jealous of someone else's glory is
trying to make fun of "facts" that he has no true knowledge of.
The amount of people who followed hundreds of cross processions from each
parish in Moscow was countless. It was like a sea of people who came that
morning to the Cathedral. Even being in Moscow at that time I did not hear
exact estimates of how many people actually came by foot carrying icons,
banners and crosses, following their priests. Only 16,000 were admitted
inside the Cathedral because of security reasons, while others had to stand
outside filling up all surrounding streets and squares and watch the event
on big screens set up outside for this purpose. I had a VIP pass to the
Cathedral (that's the big one I sent to you) and it allowed me to get very
close to the Royal Doors. It was very tight there too. I had to hold my
video camera above my head at all times in order to tape the ceremony. It
was even crowded where the Prime Minister, Mayor of Moscow and heads of
various foreign delegations stood. President Putin intended to come to the
ceremony but had to cancel because of the accident with the nuclear sub,
which was developing at that time.
The event was organized at the highest level. A few thousand of military
troops and police that surrounded the Cathedral were not even necessary
(may be). All participants of the cross processions who stood outside
looking like a multitude of angels and slightly resembling a huge army of
heavenly hosts witnessing the glory of God, ready to pacify any disturbance
that could appear against His will, were calm and filled with awe.
Everything was peaceful and glorious. One thing was obvious - the Truth in
Russia again has prevailed against the evil, as it has always been for
centuries.
Sinful servant of God, Taras
robert G Tallick
T254
Taras replies regarding Father Gerards statistics -
Bob,
I think I have provided some explanation in my previous message. I don't
want to discuss any statistical numbers because at this time I don't have
the information handy. However, if this becomes very important I can get
such information directly from people who work with the Moscow
Patriarchate. Moscow's population is about 10,000,000 people. I do believe
that approximately between 100,000 to 200,000 (1-2%) of them may be
attending churches regularly. Well, let us thank God that there are so many
faithful who pray for us, sinners! Everyone should remember that regular
attendance of churches in Russia is significantly different than attendance
of Christian clubs (i.e. so-called Protestant Churches, etc.) in the West.
Practically, in all churches there are at least two daily services (liturgy
and vespers), and in all monastery churches there are a few more. Each
service is usually two hours long (or more). There is no place to sit
during services, and your priest will not give you a communion if you have
been slacking in your spiritual effort. If you are an "active" believer
your whole life must be built around the Church. There are many people who
come to churches during important Feasts. But, all I can tell you is that
absolutely all churches get completely packed during such feasts. Who
counts all these people? I don't know. I have never seen anyone actually
doing it. We have to ask a reasonable question here: What's the reason for
counting these people?
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote:
> Taras replies regarding Father Gerards statistics -
> Moscow's population is about 10,000,000 people. I do believe
> that approximately between 100,000 to 200,000 (1-2%) of them may be
> attending churches regularly.
Bob, be sure to thank Taras for me.
He confirms what I contended: that the figure on the Stetson site is a
mistake, and instead of "20%" attendance of Orthodox in Moscow, it
should actually read "2%."
Between 1% and 2% is the figure I've always read; now Taras confirms
this.
Thank him for me.
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"There is only one sadness: not to be a saint" (Leon Bloy)
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote:
> So some of the shots in the video give a
> panoramic view of the crowds within the Cathedral. A sight to behold!
Bob, I saw some of the video as well and I can truly understand your
enthusiastic "a sight to behold!"
Maybe you, too, can appreciate my own enthusiasm. On the same Sunday as
of the Dedication, I watched on EWTN the great gathering in Rome of the
Youthful Church with the Pope and hundreds of bishops--and every once in
a while there would be a panoramic view of the multitude--as far as the
eye could see--altogether 2,000,000 youth of great joy and enthusiasm.
A sight to behold! :-)
evagr...@my-deja.com
Two million? All in one place? Isn't that a little large?
Aren't you exaggerating a tad, say by a zero or two?
In article <39C7B4AB...@home.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Polichinello
>
> > Moscow's population is about 10,000,000 people. I do believe
> > that approximately between 100,000 to 200,000 (1-2%) of them may be
> > attending churches regularly.
>
> Bob, be sure to thank Taras for me.
>
> He confirms what I contended: that the figure on the Stetson site is a
> mistake, and instead of "20%" attendance of Orthodox in Moscow, it
> should actually read "2%."
>
> Between 1% and 2% is the figure I've always read; now Taras confirms
> this.
>
> Thank him for me.
He isn't confirming your number; he's granting it *arguendo* to make a
point. Even if your ridiculous underestimate is true, it's still
represents a significant number.
A point that can be easily extended by further pointing out that W.
European countries have pathetically lower attendance (not to mention
'regular' attendance) with plentiful physical structures and easier
rules.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
--
http://www.houstonreview.com
Houston's Conservative News Source
Polichinello
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Mr. Bugge,
>
> Two million? All in one place? Isn't that a little large?
>
> Aren't you exaggerating a tad, say by a zero or two?
Perish the thought.
evagr...@my-deja.com
Maybe it was those over excited Italians. You know how "they" are,
those Mediterranean types. Perhaps Mr. Bugge got caught up in their
enthusiasm.
They do the same for soccer games; start exaggerating the score until
it looks like a Dallas-Forty Niner game.
In article <8q8ef7$9l4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Polichinello
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Mr. Copold,
>
> Maybe it was those over excited Italians. You know how "they" are,
> those Mediterranean types. Perhaps Mr. Bugge got caught up in their
> enthusiasm.
> They do the same for soccer games; start exaggerating the score until
> it looks like a Dallas-Forty Niner game.
As Fr. K would have it, their lust for garlic, tomatoes and Popes would
probably reinforce this. (Though Italians aren't exactly overfond of
Popes, save maybe Johnny 23.)
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
Gerard Serafin
> Aren't you exaggerating a tad, say by a zero or two?
No, almost all accounts give two million--and if you saw photos of the
event or watched any of it on TV or video, you will see for yourself. It
was an incredibly large crowd, perhaps the largest ever gathering in
Europe. The only larger gathering, some reports said, was the World
Youth Day closing in Manila, which they estimate brought together
perhaps four millions.
I'll send a photo of one shot that shows something of the size.
Of course, even Rome was taken by surprise. Estimates had anticipated
between 1,000,000 and 1,500,000. But it was larger, by far, than that.
(And due to that size, some say not quite as well organized as Paris
three years ago, when there were about 1,000,000 present for the last
days).
T254
>point.
Exactly!
>A sight to behold! :-)
For a Roman Catholic maybe. But didn't do a damn thing for me except to wonder
why so many wayward sheep were in the same Pasteur.
>A point that can be easily extended by further >pointing out that W.
>European countries have pathetically lower >attendance (not to mention
>'regular' attendance) with plentiful physical >structures and easier
>rules.
Good point. Not to mention shorter services. It's amazing how Protestants &
Roman Catholics love to come in here with church attendence in Orthodox
countries like Russia and Greece. But the Protestants don't want to talk about
statistics of Church attendence in England or Roman Catholics about Church
attendence in places like France.
I live in a Roman Catholic neighborhood and the majority of my friends are
Roman Catholic. Yet I can honestly say that not one of these RC friends or
neighbors attends Mass on a regular basis. Other than Baptisms. Weddings, or
Funerals, the only other time you will see them enter a RCC is on Ash Wednesday
for less than five minutes so they can get the ashes on their forehead and
parade around as pious Roman Catholic frauds for the rest of the day. Why
isn't Fr Gerard worried about that?
Taras's private comment to me was why are these people so caught up with
statistics. It's quality not quantity. Here is his comment which Fr Gerard
conveniently side steps -
"Who counts all these people? I don't know. I have never seen anyone actually
doing it. We have to ask a reasonable question here: What's the reason for
counting these people?"
"If you are an "active" believer your whole life must be built around the
Church. There are many people who
come to churches during important Feasts."
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> > > Taras replies regarding Father Gerards statistics -
> > > Moscow's population is about 10,000,000 people. I do believe
> > > that approximately between 100,000 to 200,000 (1-2%) of them may be
> > > attending churches regularly.
> > Bob, be sure to thank Taras for me.
> > He confirms what I contended: that the figure on the Stetson site is a
> > mistake, and instead of "20%" attendance of Orthodox in Moscow, it
> > should actually read "2%."
> >
> > Between 1% and 2% is the figure I've always read; now Taras confirms
> > this.
> >
> > Thank him for me.
> He isn't confirming your number; he's granting it *arguendo* to make a
> point. Even if your ridiculous underestimate is true, it's still
> represents a significant number.
I don't think so, Derek. He says "I do believe that the attendance I do
believe that approximately between 100,000 to 200,000 (1-2%) of them may
be attending churches regularly."
I think you miss his point here. He is affirming the low estimate. Low
it is, I agree. But it's the one everyone gives..even Taras!
> A point that can be easily extended by further pointing out that W.
> European countries have pathetically lower attendance (not to mention
> 'regular' attendance) with plentiful physical structures and easier
> rules.
I think Britain may have lower for C of E people; Stokholm for
Lutherans, etc.
But even for western Europe, 1-2% is very low.
Very low.
T254
Bob,
Again, I would like to say that it is easy to make unintelligent remarks
and portray something in a negative light. This expriest you are talking
about obviously has no elementary knowledge of subjects he is talking
about. Just out of interest you may ask him how many Muslims live in
Moscow. May be he has a good idea on how to convert Chechens to the
Christian faith? Let it even be the Roman Catholic (an absurd combination
of words) faith. If he's got any single serious idea, you may continue this
dialogue with him. If not, then I personally have serious doubts that such
a person may be even an expriest.
robert G Tallick
Polichinello
Your taking that sentence WAY out of context. Bob Tallick confirms my
point.
>
> I think you miss his point here. He is affirming the low estimate. Low
> it is, I agree. But it's the one everyone gives..even Taras!
>
> > A point that can be easily extended by further pointing out that W.
> > European countries have pathetically lower attendance (not to
mention
> > 'regular' attendance) with plentiful physical structures and easier
> > rules.
>
> I think Britain may have lower for C of E people; Stokholm for
> Lutherans, etc.
>
> But even for western Europe, 1-2% is very low.
>
> Very low.
France, Italy and the others fall within that realm if you apply the
same standards of "regularity." Also,if you exclude all the Muslims from
count too. LOL.
Even if we accept your laughable figure, which we don't, it still
doesn't take into account 70 years of severe religious suppression. What
excuse can you offer for your side?
Michel Foucault?
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> > I think Britain may have lower for C of E people; Stokholm for
> > Lutherans, etc.
> >
> > But even for western Europe, 1-2% is very low.
> >
> > Very low.
> France, Italy and the others fall within that realm if you apply the
> same standards of "regularity." Also,if you exclude all the Muslims from
> count too. LOL.
> Even if we accept your laughable figure, which we don't, it still
> doesn't take into account 70 years of severe religious suppression. What
> excuse can you offer for your side?
> Michel Foucault?
You guys are a scream. Really.
I offered my opinion, based on some knowledge, that the stats you were
discussing were most likely a mistake.
I used the example of the attendance at the Dedication of the Church of
Christ the Savior to demonstrate my point.
The figure I give--"laughable" you say--is the one given officially as
well.
Remember the Pascha stats--the police kept a record and it amounted to
less than 200,000 attending. We discussed this before. At least Michel
did and mentioned this figure. I think you did too.
Now you are "attacking" Catholic countries, etc. etc. etc.
You guys are a scream!
No joy a la Fr Schmemman, it seems to me.
No delight in discussion--just blast, blast, blast.
A scream.
I actually have fun doing it though, if truth be told.
I think I have a measure of joy in my faith even.
You guys are a scream.
Carry on... :-)
T254
>point.
It's amazing how our resident troll will do that at times just to try and prove
an erroneous point he has made or to try and get our goat. Taras did not
confirm the 1%-2% statistic, he just replied to it. Gerard completely brushes
over the portions of his email that allude to this -
His very first sentences states -
["I don't want to discuss any statistical numbers because at this time I don't
have the information handy. However, if this becomes very important I can get
such information directly from people who work with the Moscow Patriarchate."]
But of course Gerard completly excludes this.
[" But, all I can tell you is that
absolutely all churches get completely packed during such feasts. Who counts
all these people? I don't know. I have never seen anyone actually doing it. We
have to ask a reasonable question here: What's the reason for
counting these people?"]
As you can see he's baffled at the reason for the statistics in the first
place. I had to explain that what it means to people like Gerard is that if
true than it means 98% are ripe for proseltyzing and conversion.
Since Gerard likes statistics. here are the current ones on Church growth from
the Russian Orthodox Church website -
[ At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in 1991), 26
seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did not exist
at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a Theological
Institute, a women's pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The total
number of theological students including those of the correspondence
departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been
established to develop religious education among the laity. This important work
is coordinated by the Department for Religious Education and Catechism.
There is a variety of forms in which religious education and catechization of
lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches, circles for
adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox kindergartens,
Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia, schools,
lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday school has been
the most popular form of catechism. ]
Perhaps Gerard can provide us with some statistics on how many Roman Catholic
institutions and churches have been closed in some of the major American cities
due to a decline in membership. Or is that a taboo subject for him?
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> Even if we accept your laughable figure, which we don't, it still
> doesn't take into account 70 years of severe religious suppression. What
> excuse can you offer for your side?
It might prove interesting to see the stats regarding Poland and western
Ukraine today (among the Catholics) as compared with Moscow and Russia
regarding attendance. Surely the persecution in Ukraine was as bad as it
gets and Poland was not exactly favorable to the Catholic Church (but
the Polish episcopate managed a tremendous united front and was able to
salvage more than in some other countries).
Polichinello
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > > I think Britain may have lower for C of E people; Stokholm for
> > > Lutherans, etc.
> > >
> > > But even for western Europe, 1-2% is very low.
> > >
> > > Very low.
>
> > France, Italy and the others fall within that realm if you apply the
> > same standards of "regularity." Also,if you exclude all the Muslims
from
> > count too. LOL.
>
> > doesn't take into account 70 years of severe religious suppression.
What
> > excuse can you offer for your side?
>
>
> You guys are a scream. Really.
>
> I offered my opinion, based on some knowledge, that the stats you were
> discussing were most likely a mistake.
To which you failed to cite a source substantiating your opinions.
> I used the example of the attendance at the Dedication of the Church
> of Christ the Savior to demonstrate my point.
A point vitiated by an eyewitness cited by Bob Tallick. You're point
decisively failed, to which you played Catholic Triumphalist by
comparing the Roman gathering to this event. I suppose some comparisons
are OK, but others are off-limits. Will you be telling us that 2+2=5
next?
> The figure I give--"laughable" you say--is the one given officially as
> well.
By whom? The official figure in play is 20%. Michel cited it.
> Remember the Pascha stats--the police kept a record and it amounted to
> less than 200,000 attending. We discussed this before. At least Michel
> did and mentioned this figure. I think you did too.
Actually, no I didn't. The stats failed also to take into account
cemetary services, a rather large phenomenon. Again flawed statistics
using overly narrowed constraints.
> Now you are "attacking" Catholic countries, etc. etc. etc.
We're showing comparable cases that demonstrate even if you're arguments
and assertions are correct, they pale in comparison to the activities in
Catholic countries. Or do you prefer to maintain one standard for
Orthodox lands and another for Catholics?
> You guys are a scream!
>
> No joy a la Fr Schmemman, it seems to me.
>
> No delight in discussion--just blast, blast, blast.
We have discussed and refuted your assertion with explanations and
applied your standards to your own situtation. The end result of that
tact is this defensive hissy fit you're now throwing.
> A scream.
>
> I actually have fun doing it though, if truth be told.
>
> I think I have a measure of joy in my faith even.
>
> You guys are a scream.
>
> Carry on... :-)
Throughout this entire discussion you've provided nothing to
substantiate your claims beyond "I believe," which is why I cited the
post-modernist Philosopher Michel Foucault. You two would get along
quite fine.
However, since we're discussing faith, Alexander Men's Catholic
Biographer, Yves Hamant, reported that there are 1,000,000 Orthodox
funerals a year. That pretty much covers them all. Regular attendance,
whatever that is, may not fit your notions of propriety too well, but
it's very clear that when it counts, there are plenty of Orthodox
believers in Russia.
Polichinello
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > Even if we accept your laughable figure, which we don't, it still
> > doesn't take into account 70 years of severe religious suppression.
What
> > excuse can you offer for your side?
>
western
> Ukraine today (among the Catholics) as compared with Moscow and Russia
> regarding attendance. Surely the persecution in Ukraine was as bad as
it
> gets and Poland was not exactly favorable to the Catholic Church (but
> the Polish episcopate managed a tremendous united front and was able
to
> salvage more than in some other countries).
Bully for them. (By the way, you haven't cited a number, so don't
pretend you have.)
However, Poland never endured the full brunt of the Bolshevik terror of
the early 20's or the Stalinist purges. Western Ukraine was largely
spared as well as it was Polish. I'm not saying the past century was a
breeze, it wasn't, but it wasn't nearly as difficult as the situation in
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote:
> Perhaps Gerard can provide us with some statistics on how many Roman Catholic
> institutions and churches have been closed in some of the major American cities
> due to a decline in membership. Or is that a taboo subject for him?
Actually membership figures have grown consistently over the years--over
60,000,000 Catholics in the US now.
Demographics have changed and there have been closings of parishes and
institutions; though the Catholic Church maintains more churches and
schools in inner city, non-Catholic areas, beyond any other, by far. As
Newsweek wrote not long ago, speaking of the exodus of churches from the
inner cities, "except the Catholic Church, the Church that stayed." Nice
to read that in Newsweek! :-)
In other words, there are almost as many Catholics in the US (which has
been known as a "Protestant" country) as there are Orthodox in Russia,
and more than in any other Orthodox country, by far. The second largest
Orthodox Church is in Romania, I believe, and there are less than
20,000,000 there.
I don't have "taboo" subjects.
But I do have some stats and *facts.*
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote:
>
> >Your taking that sentence WAY out of context. Bob Tallick confirms my
> >point.
> It's amazing how our resident troll will do that at times just to try and prove
> an erroneous point he has made or to try and get our goat. Taras did not
> confirm the 1%-2% statistic, he just replied to it. Gerard completely brushes
> over the portions of his email that allude to this -
I wasnt' at all interested in Taras' opinions and assumptions. I was
simply glad to see him confirm the stats I gave. He did that. And now
you all dance around.
You guys are a scream! :-)
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> However, Poland never endured the full brunt of the Bolshevik terror of
> the early 20's or the Stalinist purges. Western Ukraine was largely
> spared as well as it was Polish. I'm not saying the past century was a
> breeze, it wasn't, but it wasn't nearly as difficult as the situation in
> Russia.
It was worse, by far, for the Ukrainian Catholic Church, which was
liquidated. All her properties were confiscated and most handed over to
the Russian Orthodox Church.
No Church suffered more or has had such a remarkable resurrection.
That's the Church I'd compare, attendance wise, with the Orthodox Church
in Moscow and all of Russia, for that matter.
frjohn
> He confirms what I contended: that the figure on the Stetson site is a
> mistake, and instead of "20%" attendance of Orthodox in Moscow, it
> should actually read "2%."
>
it is a miracle that anyone in Moscow is still Orthodox because the Orthodox
Christians of Russia did not abandon their Faith. There was no persecution
in Western Europe and millions of Christians have abandoned their Faith.
Indeed, it has gotten so bad that most scholars write of a post Christian
society when referring to contemporary European society.
Archpriest John W. Morris
T254
>simply glad to see him confirm the stats I gave. He did that. And now
>you all dance around.
>
>You guys are a scream! :-)
No he didn't do that. He commented on your statistics. But started out the
email with the fact he didn't have the statistics available. If he didn't have
them available, how could he either confirm or deny yours?
robert G Tallick
T254
Give me a break! What an insult to over 20,000,000 Orthodox souls that died
for their faith. Not to mention the millions that were jailed, exiled, or put
in mental hospitals for their faith. Persecution of the Orthodox Church
started right in 1917. By the time Stalin got around to the UCC thousands of
Orthodox Churches had already been destroyed and millions had been martyred or
exiled, or imprisioned. And he played no favoites in the Ukraine. Orthodox
suffered along side Uniates.
robert G Tallick
Polichinello
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > However, Poland never endured the full brunt of the Bolshevik
terror of
> > the early 20's or the Stalinist purges. Western Ukraine was largely
> > spared as well as it was Polish. I'm not saying the past century
was a
> > breeze, it wasn't, but it wasn't nearly as difficult as the
situation in
> > Russia.
>
> It was worse, by far, for the Ukrainian Catholic Church, which was
> liquidated. All her properties were confiscated and most handed over
> to the Russian Orthodox Church.
They never went through the mass slaughters of the 20's and 30's. Most
of them continued operation through the ROC. Not exactly all that
miraculous, especially when local governments are abetting forceful
takeovers.
And I might add there were plenty of Orthodox Churches siezed by the
Catholic Poles when they took over the territory as well.
> No Church suffered more or has had such a remarkable resurrection.
> That's the Church I'd compare, attendance wise, with the Orthodox
> Church in Moscow and all of Russia, for that matter.
How 'bout the Church in Sudan.
Actually, you still haven't made any such comparison beyond your
fallacious conjecturing, and any number you conjured up would probably
be adulterated with Orthodox.
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote:
> >No Church suffered more or has had such a remarkable resurrection.
> By the time Stalin got around to the UCC thousands of
> Orthodox Churches had already been destroyed and millions had been martyred or
> exiled, or imprisioned. And he played no favoites in the Ukraine. Orthodox
> suffered along side Uniates.
No, Robert, favorites were played.
The Russian Orthodox Church received a "gift" of thousands of Ukraianian
Catholic churches and properties--since the Ukrainian Catholic Church
was entirely (legally) "liquidated."
I am surprised you can't seem to see this.
Or am I?
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Praise of Glory BookCenter:
"Do not read good books; read *great* books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
Gerard Serafin
He obviously had heard some stats which he decided, fortunately for me,
unfortunately for you, to pass on.
He said:
"I do believe that the attendance that approximately between 100,000 to
200,000 (1-2%) of them may be attending churches regularly."
Keep dancing, boys!!!
And don't forget to thank Taras for me. :-)
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> As Fr. K would have it, their lust for garlic, tomatoes and Popes would
> probably reinforce this. (Though Italians aren't exactly overfond of
> Popes, save maybe Johnny 23.)
They (i.e. many of them) love JP II as well.
Of the 2,000,000 young people at the WYD in Rome, 1,400,000 were from
Rome and Italy itself. They were very enthusiastic about the Pope! See
the videos avaiable on the EWTN website. Great scenes. I've downloaded
to keep the great Vigil Service so I can watch it on and off when I can
use a shot of hope and a "picture" of real joy.
T254
>unfortunately for you, to pass on.
>
>He said:
>
>"I do believe that the attendance that approximately between 100,000 to
>200,000 (1-2%) of them may be attending churches regularly."
You know Gerard, you and I can play this childish game forever. But the fact
remains, and has been printed here for all to see.
So quit acting like a little child who as been caught with it's pants down and
take your Prozac already!
robert G Tallick
T254
>Catholic churches and properties--since the Ukrainian Catholic Church
>was entirely (legally) "liquidated."
>
>I am surprised you can't seem to see this.
A gift? Gifts aren't given with threats attached. Can you please tells us
what your reaction would have been if the Russian Orthodox Church would have
refused and all the Churches were closed or turned into latrines, etc. by
Stalin? Thereby denying the Sacraments to these so called Ukrainian Catholics
who now are being told they are 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'?
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
frjohn wrote:
> Considering the savage persecution of the Orthodox Church by the Communists,
> it is a miracle that anyone in Moscow is still Orthodox because the Orthodox
> Christians of Russia did not abandon their Faith. There was no persecution
> in Western Europe and millions of Christians have abandoned their Faith.
I think you're forgetting something here: remember Hitler?
> Indeed, it has gotten so bad that most scholars write of a post Christian
> society when referring to contemporary European society.
And the Orthodox countries are right in step with the others.
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> > Remember the Pascha stats--the police kept a record and it amounted to
> > less than 200,000 attending. We discussed this before. At least Michel
> > did and mentioned this figure. I think you did too.
> Actually, no I didn't. The stats failed also to take into account
> cemetary services, a rather large phenomenon. Again flawed statistics
> using overly narrowed constraints.
Derek, wrong again.
Very very wrong.
Let me show you why, OK?---
The stats *explicitly* mentioned the cemetery services (which the
Patriarch banned). Here's the May 7 item from Stetson, which was under
discussion on this newsgroup:
"Five times as many Muscovites to cemeteries on Easter as to church
PASCHAL HOLIDAYS PASSED QUIETLY IN MOSCOW
Moskovskii komsomolets, 4 May 2000
Capital police summarize the celebration of Pascha
The GUVD of Moscow has reported that on the night of 30 April
3569 police personnel were activated for maintaining public order in
192 Moscow churches. Inside the churches there were 71,375 people
(in 1999, 77,148), and on the surrounding yards there were 53,645
(last year, 66,436). Near the church, twenty persons were arrested for
various violations of law, including eleven for drinking alcoholic
beverages and public drunkenness. On Sunday, police estimate,
640,000 persons (in 1999, 775,000) visited cemeteries. Only nine
persons were arrested for criminal violations, all of them for
drunkenness. (tr. by PDS)"
If you count, you will see the attendance figure around 1%-2% of
Moscow's population, by the way.
Regarding the "cemetery services" as you call them, here's what
Patriarch Alexei says of them:
"Alexis II: The tradition of visiting the cemetery on Pascha arose
during the soviet period, when the majority of people were afraid to go
to church. Of course, it is possible to honor one's departed relatives
at any time. But the church has designated a special day for this,
Radonitsa, which in the year 2000 comes on 9 May, Victory Day, when
those who perished in the war will be especially remembered. On that
day one can go down to the cemetery and commemorate the departed with
regular food. However the alien tradition of getting drunk at the
graves is totally inconsistent with the letter and spirit of church
laws."
Thus, Derek, it might be best not to count these stats towards "church
attendance."
I know you will find something to criticize in this factual
report--about me, of course.
Dance on! Dance on! Dance on! :-)
--
Gerard Serafin
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Praise of Glory BookCenter:
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
Monastic Book&CD Center:
http://saintbenedict.org/monasticbooks.htm
Brian Delaney
Gerard's description of the crowd reminded me of Stalinist accounts
of May Day, Moscow, circa 1937. Oh yes, 2 million, no, 3 million
attended!
Brian
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Mr. Bugge,
Gerard Serafin
Brian Delaney wrote:
> Gerard's description of the crowd reminded me of Stalinist accounts
> of May Day, Moscow, circa 1937. Oh yes, 2 million, no, 3 million
> attended!
Brian, many many sources quoted the "two million" figure--especially
those who were on the scene itself. Sources unfavorable to the Pope as
well, grudgingly admitting this was a remarkable feat of his
pontificate.
Here's the Wall Street Journal's opening paragraph:
"An event rife with meaning not just for theologians, but for people
everywhere, ended this past weekend in Rome. Two million or so youths
rallied in the Eternal City, coming from places as diverse as Togo,
Manila, Paris, and St Louis, heeding a call from Pope John Paul II with
a fervor that left journalists and intellectuals scratching their
heads."
And a lot of Orthodox scratching their heads too it seems!
Just can't take it in--that the Catholic Church is alive and even, in
some sectors, thriving. And, surprise of surprises, among *so many*
young people.
As I said to others, watch the videos available on EWTN website and you
may get a glimpse of the immense multitudes.
But even then you will probably deny what is there to be seen by those
who have eyes to see.
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Polichinello
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > > Remember the Pascha stats--the police kept a record and it
amounted to
> > > less than 200,000 attending. We discussed this before. At least
Michel
> > > did and mentioned this figure. I think you did too.
>
> > Actually, no I didn't. The stats failed also to take into account
> > cemetary services, a rather large phenomenon. Again flawed
statistics
> > using overly narrowed constraints.
>
> Derek, wrong again.
>
> Very very wrong.
>
> Let me show you why, OK?---
Actually, you did fail to take the cemetary services into account when
citing the 1-2% figure, and you go on to prove it below when you cite a
figure of around 765,000 total attending either church or cemetary
services. (again this is a guess).
Patriarch Alexei is right to point out the difference and promote church
attendance, but as you've noted, the Church doesn't have the structures
to accomodate everyone(note the number forced to remain outside), thus
the cemetary practice continues.
Though it's not the fully desired form, actual Easter observance (at
least what can be recorded) is around 11%, not 1-2%.(If we accept your
7,000,000 pop count for Moscow. 7.65% for Taras' 10 million.) I'd be
curious to actually see how many in Western Europe observe Easter beyond
enjoying the day off, even when they don't need to wait outside a
church yard because there's plenty of church space. (Again, if the
Church is to suffer your criticism, we have to compare its situation to
other countries.)
Regular church attendance is another matter, and how its measured is
usually subject to dispute. The 1-2% figure is probably accurate if
you're dealing with someone showing up each and every Sunday. If you're
dealing with those, like most, who are more occasional, the number goes
up, which is why Stetson, whom you selectively quote, gives attendance
figures in 20%.
In addition, you've discounted the 1,000,000 funerals a year I cited
from Yves Hamant, showing a significantly high number of believers,
though not necessarily the most pious lot.
...and I haven't attacked YOU, I've attacked your arguments. Stating
otherwise constitutes an attack on me.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
> A Catholic Page for Lovers:
> http://praiseofglory.com
> Praise of Glory BookCenter:
> http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
> Monastic Book&CD Center:
> http://saintbenedict.org/monasticbooks.htm
>
--
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> > > Actually, no I didn't. The stats failed also to take into account
> > > cemetary services, a rather large phenomenon. Again flawed
> statistics
> > > using overly narrowed constraints.
Gerard replied:
> > Derek, wrong again.
> >
> > Very very wrong.
> >
> > Let me show you why, OK?---
Derek:
> Actually, you did fail to take the cemetary services into account when
> citing the 1-2% figure, and you go on to prove it below when you cite a
> figure of around 765,000 total attending either church or cemetary
> services. (again this is a guess).
Derek, the cemetery observances are not "services" they are "traditions"
and involve eating and drinking (a lot, from reports).
To count them as "attendees" is simply incredible.
> Patriarch Alexei is right to point out the difference and promote church
> attendance, but as you've noted, the Church doesn't have the structures
> to accomodate everyone(note the number forced to remain outside), thus
> the cemetary practice continues.
I suspect they continue for other reasons as well... :-)
> Though it's not the fully desired form, actual Easter observance (at
> least what can be recorded) is around 11%, not 1-2%.(If we accept your
> 7,000,000 pop count for Moscow. 7.65% for Taras' 10 million.)
Yeah, and we can count those who went to a shopping mall in the west on
Easter as "not being fully desired form" etc. etc.
Right!
> I'd be
> curious to actually see how many in Western Europe observe Easter beyond
> enjoying the day off, even when they don't need to wait outside a
> church yard because there's plenty of church space. (Again, if the
> Church is to suffer your criticism, we have to compare its situation to
> other countries.)
I never criticized. I gave figures, confirmed by other sources. You guys
(who are a scream) started the comparisons....then I mentioned some
myself. But you all started it, remember? (I suspect you have forgotten
already).
Attendance is higher in Catholic countries. And in Poland, for example,
*much higher!* Well over 50% go to Mass each Sunday. It's less than it
was, yes; but still quite high by any standards.
> Regular church attendance is another matter, and how its measured is
> usually subject to dispute. The 1-2% figure is probably accurate if
> you're dealing with someone showing up each and every Sunday. If you're
> dealing with those, like most, who are more occasional, the number goes
> up, which is why Stetson, whom you selectively quote, gives attendance
> figures in 20%.
If you count "cemetery services" perhaps. But these have almost nothing
to do with the Church. Even though *discouraged* by the Patriarch, five
times as many attended these than Pascha services!!! (And even you may
agree that Pascha is the best attended service of the year, no?).
> In addition, you've discounted the 1,000,000 funerals a year I cited
> from Yves Hamant, showing a significantly high number of believers,
> though not necessarily the most pious lot.
Didn't discount at all. Not at all surprised; nor overly impressed. (So
now you want to count the "corpses" too in figures for "church
attendance?").
> ...and I haven't attacked YOU, I've attacked your arguments. Stating
> otherwise constitutes an attack on me.
Keep dancing, boy!
You're good at it, Derek, old boy!
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Polichinello
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > > > Actually, no I didn't. The stats failed also to take into
account
> > > > cemetary services, a rather large phenomenon. Again flawed
> > statistics
> > > > using overly narrowed constraints.
>
> Gerard replied:
>
> > > Derek, wrong again.
> > >
> > > Very very wrong.
> > >
> > > Let me show you why, OK?---
>
> Derek:
>
> > Actually, you did fail to take the cemetary services into account
when
> > citing the 1-2% figure, and you go on to prove it below when you
cite a
> > figure of around 765,000 total attending either church or cemetary
> > services. (again this is a guess).
>
> Derek, the cemetery observances are not "services" they are
"traditions"
> and involve eating and drinking (a lot, from reports).
>
> To count them as "attendees" is simply incredible.
The traditions have a religious significance, and given the lack of
Church space it's the only alternative available, bad behavior aside.
> > Patriarch Alexei is right to point out the difference and promote
church
> > attendance, but as you've noted, the Church doesn't have the
structures
> > to accomodate everyone(note the number forced to remain outside),
thus
> > the cemetary practice continues.
>
> I suspect they continue for other reasons as well... :-)
More conjecture.
> > Though it's not the fully desired form, actual Easter observance (at
> > least what can be recorded) is around 11%, not 1-2%.(If we accept
your
> > 7,000,000 pop count for Moscow. 7.65% for Taras' 10 million.)
>
> Yeah, and we can count those who went to a shopping mall in the west
> on Easter as "not being fully desired form" etc. etc.
>
> Right!
Please. Going to a cemetary to honor the dead is not comparable to go to
going to a shopping mall.
> > I'd be
> > curious to actually see how many in Western Europe observe Easter
beyond
> > enjoying the day off, even when they don't need to wait outside a
> > church yard because there's plenty of church space. (Again, if the
> > Church is to suffer your criticism, we have to compare its situation
to
> > other countries.)
>
> I never criticized.
You've constantly criticized and compared. (a la the big Rome shindig.)
> I gave figures, confirmed by other sources. You
guys
> (who are a scream) started the comparisons....then I mentioned some
> myself. But you all started it, remember? (I suspect you have
forgotten
> already).
>
> Attendance is higher in Catholic countries. And in Poland, for
> example,
> *much higher!* Well over 50% go to Mass each Sunday. It's less than it
> was, yes; but still quite high by any standards.
Poland has physical structures still standing, and never experienced the
razing that the Orthodox Churhc did.
> > Regular church attendance is another matter, and how its measured is
> > usually subject to dispute. The 1-2% figure is probably accurate if
> > you're dealing with someone showing up each and every Sunday. If
you're
> > dealing with those, like most, who are more occasional, the number
goes
> > up, which is why Stetson, whom you selectively quote, gives
attendance
> > figures in 20%.
>
> If you count "cemetery services" perhaps. But these have almost
> nothing
> to do with the Church.
They grew up as a response to communist suppression of the Church.
That's a rather strange "nothing."
> Even though *discouraged* by the Patriarch,
> five
> times as many attended these than Pascha services!!! (And even you may
> agree that Pascha is the best attended service of the year, no?).
Tens of thousands must still wait outside. What else are they to do?
They take the next best alternative.
> > In addition, you've discounted the 1,000,000 funerals a year I cited
> > from Yves Hamant, showing a significantly high number of believers,
> > though not necessarily the most pious lot.
>
> Didn't discount at all. Not at all surprised; nor overly impressed.
(So
> now you want to count the "corpses" too in figures for "church
> attendance?").
It shows a baseline of belief. When you plan your funeral it reflects
your belief.
> > ...and I haven't attacked YOU, I've attacked your arguments. Stating
> > otherwise constitutes an attack on me.
>
> Keep dancing, boy!
>
> You're good at it, Derek, old boy!
Thanks mainly to your clumsiness.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
Galina
You are right in your assessment. Even in the numbers of people who are still
religious, there are many who now think of Orthodoxy in terms of Rusadox instead
of Orthodox but there are many new faithful as well who are learning all they
can about their religion, soaking up the Word as life blood and
bhaving...well....like ocnverts! In all of Eastern Europe, Southeastern Europe
and the former Soviet Union, there are many such people, to the point where it
is almost like the majority of Orthodox today are converts.
Yet, there are many who bravely became Orthodox or who remained or retained
their Orthodoxy under the communists. I met one woman here in Washington who
had a dream while her father was dying and became Orthodox. Alexander Men
christened her and she raised her son Orthodox even as her husband was not
Orthodox and that son remains Orthodox today, grown up and studying theology and
languages. This she did while pursuing her academic career at great social
cost. Probably everyone on this netgroup knows many people who remained so
courageous. So there is much hope for the future, from all the new converts and
from those who stayed with the faith, or were able to know of it, one way or the
other. And we cannot judge from our security the pious in these places for we
have not been called upon to excercise such bravery. After all, the Church has
triumphed over the evil "scientific study of religion" of the communists.
frjohn wrote:
> >
> > He confirms what I contended: that the figure on the Stetson site is a
> > mistake, and instead of "20%" attendance of Orthodox in Moscow, it
> > should actually read "2%."
> >
> Considering the savage persecution of the Orthodox Church by the Communists,
> it is a miracle that anyone in Moscow is still Orthodox because the Orthodox
> Christians of Russia did not abandon their Faith. There was no persecution
> in Western Europe and millions of Christians have abandoned their Faith.
> Indeed, it has gotten so bad that most scholars write of a post Christian
> society when referring to contemporary European society.
>
> Archpriest John W. Morris
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> You've constantly criticized and compared. (a la the big Rome shindig.)
No, Derek. If you reread my original post in this thread, I was agreeing
with Robert's enthusiasm as he beheld the 16,000 gathered inside the
Church of the Saviour for its dedication; I said that I could understand
his enthusiasm and his words "a sight to behold!" by speaking of my own
amazement at seeing, on the very same Sunday, 2,000,000 young people
gathered in Rome with the Pope and thought that indeed "a sight to
behold!"
From thence, the fireworks began! :-)
And the dancing as well....
Polichinello
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Polichinello wrote:
>
> > You've constantly criticized and compared. (a la the big Rome
shindig.)
>
> No, Derek. If you reread my original post in this thread, I was
agreeing
> with Robert's enthusiasm as he beheld the 16,000 gathered inside the
> Church of the Saviour for its dedication; I said that I could
understand
> his enthusiasm and his words "a sight to behold!" by speaking of my
own
> amazement at seeing, on the very same Sunday, 2,000,000 young people
> gathered in Rome with the Pope and thought that indeed "a sight to
> behold!"
Not hardly. You brought out the Roman shindig when you initially poked
fun of the consecration ceremony in another thread at which time you
sanctimoniously preened about how wonderful your side is in comparison
to ours.
> From thence, the fireworks began! :-)
Wrong. before that.
> And the dancing as well....
No, one's dancing. I've you point for point without resorting to mass
snippage of the sort you engage in. (This post being only the latest in
a long series of severely snipped posts.) This dancing theme is only a
sorry ad hominum attack to divert attention from the weakness of your
argument.
Gerard Serafin
Polichinello wrote:
> > No, Derek. If you reread my original post in this thread, I was
> agreeing
> > with Robert's enthusiasm as he beheld the 16,000 gathered inside the
> > Church of the Saviour for its dedication; I said that I could
> understand
> > his enthusiasm and his words "a sight to behold!" by speaking of my
> own
> > amazement at seeing, on the very same Sunday, 2,000,000 young people
> > gathered in Rome with the Pope and thought that indeed "a sight to
> > behold!"
> Not hardly. You brought out the Roman shindig when you initially poked
> fun of the consecration ceremony in another thread at which time you
> sanctimoniously preened about how wonderful your side is in comparison
> to ours.
Not at all. Reread original post. This thread is the first I brought up
the consecration at all (other than a possible mention that it was
available on online video for viewing). Again, just reread my words as I
actually wrote them.
And you guys are the ones who questioned the figure of two million young
people in Rome; a figure given in dozens and dozens of accounts, and
many of them eye-witnesses.
You guys are a scream.
> No, one's dancing. I've you point for point without resorting to mass
> snippage of the sort you engage in. (This post being only the latest in
> a long series of severely snipped posts.) This dancing theme is only a
> sorry ad hominum attack to divert attention from the weakness of your
> argument.
Actually, Derek, my "argument" has been much more consistent than your
"dancing" and now counting the cemetery observance as somehow being akin
to attending Pascha services. That's quite hilarious--considering the
centrality of vodka to these ceremonies.
Your argument would make Pascha attendance the least of all
attendances....etc. etc.
But I think enough is enough for now anyway.
Dance on! :-)
Polichinello
Michel questioned the number in this thread. You brought the issue into
play in another thread, which is why Robert mentioned it all. In that
thread, you used the Roman party as a comparison.
>
> > No, one's dancing. I've you point for point without resorting to
mass
> > snippage of the sort you engage in. (This post being only the latest
in
> > a long series of severely snipped posts.) This dancing theme is only
a
> > sorry ad hominum attack to divert attention from the weakness of
your
> > argument.
>
> Actually, Derek, my "argument" has been much more consistent than your
> "dancing" and now counting the cemetery observance as somehow being
> akin
> to attending Pascha services. That's quite hilarious--considering the
> centrality of vodka to these ceremonies.
As opposed to those dignified Catholic celebrations like Mardi Gras.
As with any large crowd, there are distubances, but your assertions of
vodka's centrality are a bit exaggerated.
The cemetary issue has been mentioned long before, so my bringing it up
is not evidence of inconsistency.
> Your argument would make Pascha attendance the least of all
> attendances....etc. etc.
>
> But I think enough is enough for now anyway.
>
> Dance on! :-)
No, I simply point out that on that day everyone trying to get into
limited space as opposed to being spread out over a year. It's like
going to a store the day before Christmas. For great stretches of time,
the stores has space and people visit it now and again. Then one day
everyone goes there. The overflow goes elsewhere.
Is attendance in Russia wonderful? No, it's terrible. But it's not at
the ludricously low level your attempting to make it seem. It gets there
only through strained questionairres that demand perfect attendance
throughout the year. Ideal, yes, but not exactly a standard.
Again, the only number measuring overall attendance given here by Michel
is 20% from the same site you've decided to selectively quote.
T254
>snippage of the sort you engage in. (This post being only the latest in
>a long series of severely snipped posts.) This dancing theme is only a
>sorry ad hominum attack to divert attention from the weakness of your
>argument.
You got it! The only one who is dancing is Gerard himself. His snide remarks
were shot down by some one who was actually there. We could continue to answer
his childish remarks, but whats the point? Everyone reading this trend can
either go back and read what Taras, myself, and Gerard posted and judge for
themselves.
Taras analyzed the who thing in a nut shell (including Gerard) when he
responded by stating -
[When a bad artist looks at a wonderful painting in a museum he may feel
that he would never be able to make something similar to that. So, out of
jealousy he may decide to destroy the famous work. But, this is not going
to improve his own talent. It is always easier to break, than to create. It
is always easier to "pour dirt" on something than to clean it off. ]
Think that about says it all.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Mkaipo
>Even if your underestimate is true, it's still
>represents a significant number.
When I was in Russia about 8 years ago, I was so surprised to find as many
faithful as I did attending the Divine Liturgy in a small chapel at the
(historical site of) of the monastery of Kiril Belozersk.
Then at Divine Liturgy at St Nicholas-Annunciation Catherdral in Petersburg
another good size crowd.
BUT, the huge mass of faithful at Divine Liturgy in the Smolensk cemetary
chapel in Petersburg was unbelievable. The chapel is good size and packed (like
Pascha), and in my notes I kept, I wrote that it was about 2/3 who received
Holy Communion.
Except for St Kiril's monastery (Feast of Peter & Paul), the other services
were not Feast days. The Churches were simply filled with truly faithful
Christians feeding themselves on the Word of God after having been starved so
long.
To say the Churches aren't full or someone's estimates are ridiculous is, in
itself, ridiculous.
rmichae...@my-deja.com
t2...@aol.com (T254) wrote:
> Beloved
The consecration of the New Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow is
a beautiful act and the fact that the MP has begun to own up to Russia
is decidedly positive. BUT it should begin to own up to itself and
purge elements of the old sergianist order and those involved with the
maffia. The premature and heinous "autocephaly" of the North
American Metropolia must be abolished. Then we can begin to celebrate
this FEAST OF ORTHODOXY together in the spirit of LOVE, one in Christ.
I pray for this day, but I dont see it as being something which we ROCOR
will have to see to, we have our own separate existence and our own
Church. In the end, the separation PROBABLY NEEDS TO BE PERMANENT to
preserve what we have and grow in Christ in the Tradition for future
generations.
In the LOVE of Christ
Rostislav
> My friend Taras, who along with his family, attended the consecration
answers
> Father Gerards jibes and percentage comments. Apparently the
attendence inside
> the Cathedral was limited to 16,000 for security reasons. However, as
he
> states the were thousands outside the Cathederal where the
consecration service
> was broadcast and large TV screens were set up. This clearly shows up
on the
> video he sent me.
> Taras and his family had VIP invitations, and as such were up on the
Ambo at
> the left side of the Iconostasis. So some of the shots in the video
give a
> panoramic view of the crowds within the Cathedral. A sight to behold!
While
> the Patriarch, followed by the other Orthodox Patriarchs and Bishops
were in
> procession around the outside of the Cathedral with the relics to be
inserted
> into the Altar, Taras had a Deacon film the inside of the Sanctuary
with the
> Patriarchal throne etc.
> Anyhow, here is Taras reply to our resident troll -
>
> ======================================================
>
> Bob,
>
> When a bad artist looks at a wonderful painting in a museum he may
feel
> that he would never be able to make something similar to that. So, out
of
> jealousy he may decide to destroy the famous work. But, this is not
going
> to improve his own talent. It is always easier to break, than to
create. It
know
> many people (including majority of Russian TV channels and public
> newspapers) who wanted to see only negative results of the Jubilee
Council
> of Bishops. They diminished significance of the Consecration of the
> Cathedral of Christ the Savior. They hated the fact that numerous new
> saints and confessors of Orthodox faith had been glorified. That's why
it
> is not a surprise that another person jealous of someone else's glory
is
> trying to make fun of "facts" that he has no true knowledge of.
>
> The amount of people who followed hundreds of cross processions from
each
> parish in Moscow was countless. It was like a sea of people who came
that
> morning to the Cathedral. Even being in Moscow at that time I did not
hear
> exact estimates of how many people actually came by foot carrying
icons,
> banners and crosses, following their priests. Only 16,000 were
admitted
> inside the Cathedral because of security reasons, while others had to
stand
> outside filling up all surrounding streets and squares and watch the
event
> on big screens set up outside for this purpose. I had a VIP pass to
the
> Cathedral (that's the big one I sent to you) and it allowed me to get
very
> close to the Royal Doors. It was very tight there too. I had to hold
my
> video camera above my head at all times in order to tape the ceremony.
It
> was even crowded where the Prime Minister, Mayor of Moscow and heads
of
> various foreign delegations stood. President Putin intended to come to
the
> ceremony but had to cancel because of the accident with the nuclear
sub,
> which was developing at that time.
>
> The event was organized at the highest level. A few thousand of
military
> troops and police that surrounded the Cathedral were not even
necessary
> (may be). All participants of the cross processions who stood outside
> looking like a multitude of angels and slightly resembling a huge army
of
> heavenly hosts witnessing the glory of God, ready to pacify any
disturbance
> that could appear against His will, were calm and filled with awe.
> Everything was peaceful and glorious. One thing was obvious - the
Truth in
> Russia again has prevailed against the evil, as it has always been for
> centuries.
>
> Sinful servant of God, Taras
>
> robert G Tallick
T254
>will have to see to, we have our own separate existence and our own
>Church.
And live in your own little fantasy world separated from the rest of Orthodoxy.
robert G Tallick
rmichae...@my-deja.com
Church is the Embassy of God and the Tradition is THE REALITY of the
CHURCH, not your dying Metropolia.,. I was there my friend. I remember
how you shuffled Met Iriney away and got rid of the old Batushki in your
rush to be American and I know how Theodosius left Alaska in a
hurry...something about litigation and possible incareration, his phone
call to the consistory...."Ive got to get out of Alaska now." Fantasy
world? NO, reality and its bleak for you...
Orthodoxia i Thanatos!
Rostislav
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <20000919175552...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
t2...@aol.com (T254) wrote:
> >Your taking that sentence WAY out of context. Bob Tallick confirms my
> >point.
>
> It's amazing how our resident troll will do that at times just to try
and prove
> an erroneous point he has made or to try and get our goat. Taras did
not
> confirm the 1%-2% statistic, he just replied to it. Gerard
completely brushes
> over the portions of his email that allude to this -
>
> His very first sentences states -
>
> ["I don't want to discuss any statistical numbers because at this
time I don't
> have the information handy. However, if this becomes very important I
can get
> such information directly from people who work with the Moscow
Patriarchate."]
>
> But of course Gerard completly excludes this.
>
> [" But, all I can tell you is that
> absolutely all churches get completely packed during such feasts. Who
counts
> all these people? I don't know. I have never seen anyone actually
doing it. We
> have to ask a reasonable question here: What's the reason for
> counting these people?"]
>
> As you can see he's baffled at the reason for the statistics in the
first
> place. I had to explain that what it means to people like Gerard is
that if
> true than it means 98% are ripe for proseltyzing and conversion.
>
> Since Gerard likes statistics. here are the current ones on Church
growth from
> the Russian Orthodox Church website -
>
> [ At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in
1991), 26
> seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did
not exist
> at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a
Theological
> Institute, a women's pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The
total
> number of theological students including those of the correspondence
> departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been
> established to develop religious education among the laity. This
important work
> is coordinated by the Department for Religious Education and
Catechism.
> There is a variety of forms in which religious education and
catechization of
> lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches,
circles for
> adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox
kindergartens,
> Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia,
schools,
> lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday
school has been
> the most popular form of catechism. ]
>
> Perhaps Gerard can provide us with some statistics on how many Roman
Catholic
> institutions and churches have been closed in some of the major
American cities
> due to a decline in membership. Or is that a taboo subject for him?
It's not a decline in membership. It's a decline in priests and nuns.
This is a very important distinction that you should keep in mind.
>
> robert G Tallick
T254
>This is a very important distinction that you should keep in mind.
>
It is when we are classifying membership as those who attend Mass or Liturgy on
a regular basis.
robert G Tallick
nskov
and the noble reader Constantine get together to form the "Super Real
Orthodox Church" with one or the other being the Patriarch? Seems like the
real ROCOR is far too moderate for these two birds.
<rmichae...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8qbnse$6bc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <20000919111235...@ng-fn1.aol.com>,
> t2...@aol.com (T254) wrote:
> > Beloved
> The consecration of the New Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow is
> a beautiful act and the fact that the MP has begun to own up to Russia
> is decidedly positive. BUT it should begin to own up to itself and
> purge elements of the old sergianist order and those involved with the
> maffia. The premature and heinous "autocephaly" of the North
> American Metropolia must be abolished. Then we can begin to celebrate
> this FEAST OF ORTHODOXY together in the spirit of LOVE, one in Christ.
> I pray for this day, but I dont see it as being something which we ROCOR
> will have to see to, we have our own separate existence and our own
Catherine Hampton
: Anybody want to get in on a pool to name the date the honorable Rostislav
: and the noble reader Constantine get together to form the "Super Real
: Orthodox Church" with one or the other being the Patriarch? Seems like the
: real ROCOR is far too moderate for these two birds.
Actually, the real ROCOR doesn't even hold one of these birds, I
gather. It sounds like Mr. Rostislav is, at very least, missing
in action from any ROCOR parish.
Mind you, that doesn't mean I question his Orthodoxy. My confessor
is in the OCA, and I do not think that ROCOR is somehow more Orthodox
than other Orthodox. It is strange, though, that someone who is so
"ROCOR ueber alles" (as an irreverent friend of mine describes this
particular attitude) doesn't even go to a ROCOR parish.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
====================================================================
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Kovalevo Children's Home * <http://www.kovalevo.org/>
Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.iconwall.org/links/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
Steve Nichols
> Anybody want to get in on a pool to name the date the honorable Rostislav
> and the noble reader Constantine get together to form the "Super Real
> Orthodox Church" with one or the other being the Patriarch?
I'd call it the "Super Honorable Legitimate Orthodox Church" -- or "SHLOC" for
short. Featuring six-hour liturgies -- two hours for the liturgy itself, and
four-hours for the rant -- er, homily. And, of course, the homily would not
focus on Christ, or the Christian life, but rather on the evils of all others
calling themselves Orthodox.
The part that truly frightens me is that I think they'd actually develop a
following!
/Steve
T254
>> > Beloved
>> The consecration of the New Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow
>is
>> a beautiful act and the fact that the MP has begun to own up to Russia
T254 did not write any of this!
T254
robert G Tallick
Stolzi
>
>> As Fr. K would have it, their lust for garlic, tomatoes and Popes would
>> probably reinforce this.
The Beet is holy; the Tomato, profane.
Beware of false redness designed to deceive!
FTT
Stolzi <sto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001004092917...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
FTT
Barros
sto...@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 6:29 AM:
>> Polichinello wrote:
>>
>>> As Fr. K would have it, their lust for garlic, tomatoes and Popes would
>>> probably reinforce this.
>
> The Beet is holy; the Tomato, profane.
>
> Beware of false redness designed to deceive!
>
>
> Sto...@aol.com
What about yellow beets ?
Two of my children refuse red beets - are they lost ?
A.T.
rmichae...@my-deja.com
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
> And if you are SO alive, why do you have a SHORTAGE of Priests and
ascetics--The Pope Pius X society seems to be doing much better. BTW,
where is your brotherly love for the "Tridentine" Catholics--why doesnt
your ecumenism include them?
In The LOVE OF CHRIST
Rostislav
Repent heretic and be washed...
> Gerard Serafin
>
> Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
> A Catholic Page for Lovers:
> http://praiseofglory.com
> "There is only one sadness: not to be a saint" (Leon Bloy)
>