What's the difference between the OCA and ROCOR?
christopher larsen
In article <199806220119...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, katoh...@aol.com (KatOh9tale) wrote:
>....O.K. I asked the OCA question. Now could someone please explain the
>difference between OCA and ROCOR?
t
Both Churches trace their lineage back to Russia. The OCA is a church which
traces its roots back to *pre-revolutionary* Russia. The Church in Russia sent
the first missionaries to ALaska in 1790's. ROCA traces its lineage to the
time of the Russian revolution in 1917 when a group of Russian ex-pats
were separ-ated from the Church in Moscow. ROCA is not just in the United
States ... though it is headquarted here in the USA. Why ROCA and the OCA do
not merge into a single church baffles me utterly but I *think* the calender
is is an issue. (of course the calender issue is one that baffles me also ....
seems like pharaseeism to me) I understand that ROCA is *quite* open and
welcoming to converts ... as is the OCA. When I first heard about ROCA I
thought it would be composed of slavophilic zenophobes who are not open to
converts. Comments I have heard indicate that I was quite wrong in my initial
suppositions.
Z and ALTR
Kat asked for the difference between OCA and ROCOR. But you gave an
explanation of ROCA, is this ROCOR? Or OCA? Or a third group?
Yiasou
Zoe
Catherine Hampton
Z and ALTR <zand...@aol.com> wrote:
: Kat asked for the difference between OCA and ROCOR. But you gave an
: explanation of ROCA, is this ROCOR? Or OCA? Or a third group?
ROCA is ROCOR -- they're both acronyms for slightly different versions
of the same name for the same group.
Under the mercy,
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
Srour, Michael C.
O.K. I asked the OCA question. Now could someone please explain the
difference between OCA and ROCOR?
>--
>Kat
Kat,
I have been critique the OCA and other issues on this group. Your question
is goes to the heart of the problem of Orrthodox Unity and the effects of
the Russian Revolution on Orthodxy in the Western World.
To give you some background about myself I am a Mster's canidate in History
with my focus in Russia History my thesis topic is "Russian Emigre's
1921-1945"
To discuss the facts in brief: Both the Russian Orthodx Church outside of
Russia AKA Russian Synod, Karovski Synod, Russian Church in Exile; and the
Orthodox Church in America (fromerily Russian Metropolia) trace their rroot
to 1918 with PAtriarch Tykhon of Russia giving local Bishop to temporarily
sever ties with the Patriarchate until conditions improve. Both groups used
this to establish the Exile Church in Karovski, Yugoslavia and Russian
Metropolia in New York. A thrid group also emerged out of this which in
1931 went under the protection of the eccumenical PAtriarch in 1931 which
its territory centering in PAris and Western Europe.
Over time the two main groups developed difference of opinion: one group
viewed itself as an exile group hoping to return to Russia with the Fall of
Communism and restore the Romanov Monarchy. This group also used the Old
Calandar and opossed the Church involvement in the Eccumenical movement
(which now is a mute point, due to the Church involvement is miminial). The
OCA for the most part use the Ne Calandar and have relations with the
Patrarchate in Moscow, which was part of the development of the Autochaphly
in 1970.
nick cobb
The biggest difference between the OCA and ROCOR is that the OCA is in communion with ALL the canonical
Orthodox around the world. The ROCOR has isolated itself in being only in communion with itself and a
select few other churches. The term "catholicity" implies not only the oneness of belief with all the
other Orthodox, but also in communion as "one Church" with all the other Orthodox. Therefore, by
definition, the ROCOR has become a sectarian group by it's own volition!
christopher larsen wrote:
> In article <199806220119...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, katoh...@aol.com (KatOh9tale) wrote:
> >....O.K. I asked the OCA question. Now could someone please explain the
> >difference between OCA and ROCOR?
Srour, Michael C.
I thought I did that.
In practual terms: there is no difference between the two. the only main
doifference is the Russian Synod over the calandar issue and Eccumenical
movemeent have issolated them selves from the remaining Orthodox Churches in
North America, however this is starting to change.
tad...@adsnet.com wrote in message <6mn38s$dcs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <Ggyj1.1706$If.85...@twinkie.callamer.com>,
> "Srour, Michael C." <msr...@thegrid.net> wrote:
>>
>> O.K. I asked the OCA question. Now could someone please explain the
>> difference between OCA and ROCOR?
> Your generalization to a very complex history, is trite, inane, and
untrue.
>We have discussed this in other threads with more factual information than
>just a few sentences which only leads to confusion.
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Caedmontwo
>The ROCOR has isolated itself in being only in communion with itself and a
>select few other churches.
That is not strictly accurate. ROCOR has ceased concelebration with everyone
except the Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarchates and certain Old Calendrist
groups in the old world. They have not cut communion, and laity of both the
various SCOBA jurisdictions and of ROCOR are generally free to commune in the
parishes of either.
In Him,
the sinner Caedmon
nick cobb
Sorry, not true!
Jes...@my-dejanews.com
There is also a very great sociological difference between the OCA people and
the ROCOR, as alluded to below. The ROCOR people are the nobility and
aristocracy which fled the Bolsheviks with the White Russian Armies (finally
defeated and exiled, first settling in Constantinople and then in Karlovtsy,
Serbia by 1930.) The Metropolia people were true peasant stock from the
Carpathian Mountain regions of the former Austro-Hungrian Empire, today's
Slovakia, Southern Poland, and Ukraine. The Metropolia people were largely
Byzantine Catholics (from the Union of Brest-Litovsk) who came to America for
jobs, males recruited for the coal mines and steel mills of Pennsylvania and
Indiana. They were, literally, indentured servants who actually, with
Greeks, ranked lower than Negroes on the KKK's hierarchy of "undesirables".
Tennessee Ernie Ford's "I Owe my soul to the company store" song (or is it
"Fifteen Tons and What D'ya Get") certainly applied to the slavic immigrants
of the 1880-90's, when a great number came. The ROCOR didn't leave Munich
until the late 1940's, thus they are really the late-comers on the American
scene. As the writer below shows, they wanted to return to Moscow in glory
with the Czar, whose ermine robes hung gracefully over the rear door of their
E. 93rd Street Cathedral. The Metropolia people, who had long forgotten the
oppression of the Austro-Hungarian Hapsburg Empire, had nowhere to go,
indeed, as shown in the "Deer Hunter", they were intensely patriotic
AMERICANS. Indeed, at the All-Russian Church Sobor of 1917, Archpriest
Leonty Turkevich from the US was laying the framework for autonomy and
eventual autocephaly of the American diocese of the Russian Church. The
former Metropolia people have totally different roots from the ROCOR, in fact
many of their church customs are closer to Polish than high Russian ("Pascha"
to the OCA is a bread/cake, to the ROCOR it is a very rich cheese!) Yet well
meaning people still compare the lives and practices of the OCA and the
ROCOR; truth is, they are about as similar as an Irish Catholic and an
Italian Catholic. Most old-time OCA people sprang from Byzantine Catholic
backgrounds, including the dean of their leading seminary. ROCOR people have
no such background. The ROCOR people long for Romanov rule; I doubt if any
OCA people even know who the Hapsburg's were. The two groups are about as
disparate as you can get.
In article <8AEj1.1802$If.88...@twinkie.callamer.com>,
"Srour, Michael C." <msr...@thegrid.net> wrote:
>
> In practical terms: there is no difference between the two. the only main
> difference is the Russian Synod over the calandar issue and Ecumenical
> movement have isolated themselves from the remaining Orthodox Churches in
> North America, however this is starting to change.
> > "Srour, Michael C." <msr...@thegrid.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> O.K. I asked the OCA question. Now could someone please explain the
> >> difference between OCA and ROCOR?
> >> >--
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Wayne Andres
Jes...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6mobnm$ajc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
--snipped---
truth is, they are about as similar as an Irish Catholic and an
>Italian Catholic. Most old-time OCA people sprang from Byzantine Catholic
>backgrounds, including the dean of their leading seminary. ROCOR people
have
>no such background. The ROCOR people long for Romanov rule; I doubt if any
>OCA people even know who the Hapsburg's were. The two groups are about as
>disparate as you can get.
While I would agree with much of the history you have presented, I think you
may be guilty of some sweeping generalizations as well.
James (Wayne)
Catherine Hampton
Jes...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: There is also a very great sociological difference between the OCA people and
: the ROCOR, as alluded to below. The ROCOR people are the nobility and
: aristocracy which fled the Bolsheviks with the White Russian Armies (finally
: defeated and exiled, first settling in Constantinople and then in Karlovtsy,
: Serbia by 1930.)
Uh.... I'm in ROCOR. I'm also descended from the nobility of the
German and Irish peasant farmers who settled most of central Texas,
the Cherokee tribesmen who got kicked out of their ancestral homelands
and sent to Oklahoma in the early 1800s, Polish city dwellers and
small craftsmen (who are probably assimilated Ashkenazi Jews, but
the records aren't reliable that far back), assorted odd other
denizens of the British Isles and western Europe, and not one scintilla
of Russian royalty, nobility, petit bourgeoisie or peasantry, white or
red. ;>
What you said is somewhat accurate about the founders of ROCOR and
the Metropolia/OCA. However -- both groups have seen tremendous
growth from converts over the past ten or twenty years. Both groups
have parishes with large percentages of members who are converts.
Both groups have numbers of priests who are converts. I don't know
if my jurisdiction has any convert bishops, but the OCA bishop out
in California is Bishop Tikhon Fitzgerald. That's right -- a
convert of Irish descent. :)
The historical conflicts between the OCA and ROCOR may well have been
due to some class differences and conflicts, and to political
disagreements about events "back home". Nowadays, the differences
are increasingly ideological rather than political -- many of the
traditionalists are moving into ROCOR and the less traditionalist
into the OCA. That has led to some interesting differences in
how various members of both groups understand the conflicts between
them, I've found. :/ (I have a foot in both groups -- I'm a
parishioner in a ROCOR parish, but have a confessor in the OCA.)
As one might guess from this, I don't believe that the differences
between ROCOR and the OCA are critical, nor that either group has
left the Faith. IMHO an inquirer who wants to learn about
Orthodoxy shouldn't just pick a jurisdiction anyway -- visit as
many different Orthodox parishes in as many different jurisdictions
as possible. Jurisdictions reflect earthly and temporal realities,
=NOT= the eternal truths of God. The Church is the Church, when all
is said and done, and if you find the Church, the rest of this
doesn't really matter. :)
John Hagen
Catherine Hampton wrote:
>
[snip!]
>
> The historical conflicts between the OCA and ROCOR may well have been
> due to some class differences and conflicts, and to political
> disagreements about events "back home". Nowadays, the differences
> are increasingly ideological rather than political -- many of the
> traditionalists are moving into ROCOR and the less traditionalist
> into the OCA.
Um, if I may ask, what is a traditionalist and how is the ROCOR more
traditional than the OCA?
Cheers,
--
john hagen - john.b...@boeing.com
====================================
Matanna
I'm afraid these generalities are more sweeping than an ermine robe!
The biggest difference between the OCA and ROCOR is that the folks who are now
the OCA recognized the MP as the legitimate church authority in order to be
released from their control and be autocephalous in America. ROCOR maintains
that the Patriarchate was not free to speak for the Russian Church and people
at that time and we are administering to the Russians and converts and those
who've sought the protection of the Russian bishops until there can be a huge
Sobor to sort things out and re-establish contact. It isn't time yet, because
the MP is still suffering from the fall-out of seventy years of communist rule,
but some day, whether in my lifetime or my children's, it will be time for God
to release our bishops from their historic mission. In the meantime, ROCOR was
the voice abroad of the Russian martyrs, publishing catachetical materials in
both Russian and English, making the world aware of the suffering of the
Orthodox people under communism. The OCA, during the same period, was forming
its identity as an American church, and so there has been some divergence of
practice.
For example:
Seminary: The ROCOR seminary, Jordanville, is attached to Holy Trinity
Monastery, and so the fare is always vegetarian and always fasting during the
fasts. There are no women in the seminary, but some take extension courses. I
don't know much about St. Tikhon's (Tony?) or the seminary in Alaska, but St.
Vladimir's, the OCA seminary, is not attached to a monastery, offers non-lenten
fare with the caveat "Eyes on your own plate!" and has female students.
Translations: The OCA uses "you" translations, ROCOR uses "thee" and "thou."
Church set up: Almost no ROCOR churches have pews. Almost no OCA parishes are
without them. However, few OCA and no ROCOR parishes have organs. Most
parishes, both OCA and ROCOR, have amazing architecture, with the churches
built or altered to be Orthodox churches.
Church administration: The OCA has regular salaries and a pension plan. ROCOR
has lovely architecture. Most of our priests have to hold down an outside job.
American converts: Lots of them in both. ROCOR tends to baptize, the OCA tends
to chrismate.
Beards, robes, etc.: Almost no ROCOR clergy are clean-shaven and almost none
own western-style clergy attire. Most OCA priests and nearly all ROCOR priests
have beards, but the OCA beards tend to be trimmed and the ROCOR beards tend to
be untrimmed. All ROCOR clergy are supposed to wear their rassons in public,
and this generally includes going shopping, school plays, etc.
Calendar: All ROCOR parishes currently follow the old calendar. Many if not
most OCA parishes follow the "Revised Julian Calendar," which uses the new
calendar for everything but the Paschal cycle.
These are generalities, and there are many exceptions, some glaring. For
example, esp. on the west coast, there are OCA priests who have long hair and
beards and fast strictly and follow the old calendar, and I know of a ROCOR
priests who has to shave (for work), one who wear sthe roman collar outfit (to
convince Americans that he's really clergy) and I've heard of some who don't
serve Vigil on Saturdays, though I don't currently know any.
But in general, when you walk into a ROCOR parish you will see one thing and
when you walk into an OCA parish, you will see another. This is sad, but it is
the logical consequence of a series of choices. You will find people working
out their salvation with fear and trembling both places.
Matushka Ann Lardas
Jes...@my-dejanews.com
This is a good comparison of the externals, but the first paragraphs ignore
my basic point (which I grant I did not make well.) The forebears of the OCA
never knew who the Patriarch of Moscow was or any of his bishops prior to Fr.
Saint Alexis Toth in 1894 sending a group of Minneapolis laymen to San
Francisco to inquire about becoming Orthodox. The OCA/Metropolia people
spoke "ponashomu", not the Russian language of the ROCOR. They practiced
congregational singing in Carpathian chant (not the Italian opera I so love),
indeed there was a Carpatho-Russian administration in the Metropolia up until
the late 1960's. Some very talented "high-Russian" clergy were sent to the
American diocese (Fr. Leonty Turkevich, Fr. Ernest Waldikov, and others who
were conspicuous with their academy "medals" visible on their cassocks,) but
the bulk of the OCA clergy and many bishops (Archbishop Kiprian, Archbishop
Benjamin, John of Chicago, Metropolitan Ireney) were all Carpathian/Polish,
with no love lost on the Muscovites. The west coast, strangely, was a
high-Russian outpost of the OCA, perhaps due to the migration via China to
the US and their own beloved Archbishop John Shahovskoy. But the midwestern
and eastern Metropolia people, who had pretty much immigrated from the 1880's
to 1930, were Carpathians, and what made up a Carpathian is the subject of
many books and some web sites. Don't even compare them to the "Ukrainians".
But when the ROCOR people started arriving in the 1950's, they founded their
own parishes because of our old bug-a-boo, racism (no flames, please.) They
found the American "Russian" Orthodox parishes dominated by "low" Russians
(and those, not even Russians by the ROCOR definition.) But there were
cordial relations until the late 1960's. That is another story that has been
on NG's like this often, too often. But while Matushka Anna portrays the
"externals" well, i tried to point out that the OCA and the ROCOR are as
different sociologically as the Greeks from the Serbians. Try pronouncing
"unto the ages of ages" the same way in Slavonic, in a Carpathian church as
in an ROCOR church. One of them will run you out on a rail. 100 years ago
most of the OCA were just turning Orthodox from Byzantine Catholic in this
country. In Pennsylvania we still have families that are half Orthodox and
half Greek Catholic. The ROCOR has nothing like that. And never did. I
still maintain that the ROCOR knows who the Romanov's are, the OCA doesn't
know who the Hapsburg's were. And 100 years ago the Moscow Patriarch was
unknown to the American Metropolia members, who only knew that there was a
bishop in San Francisco who worshipped "like us." This makes for two very
different traditions in "Russian" Orthodoxy in this country. They did not
start out from the same place, by any measure. Externally, that is. I am
making no value judgments, just trying to point out these very different
"roots". I will now don my asbestos suit and head for the local legion hall.
In article <199806231811...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
jreeder
Dear John,
Some outside viewers equat traditionalism with legalism.
John of Merced
John Hagen <john.b...@boeing.com> wrote in article
<358FE5FA...@boeing.com>...
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com
OCA, MP or ROCOR, it makes no difference to me. We are all brothers in the
Russian Orthodox Church and I will gladly receive the mysteries from any of
these. As for GOA and AOA and the ethnic jurisdictions that invaded America
and established themselves contrary to the canons, I will never receive the
mysteries from them. My priest does not give me a blessing anyway to attend
GOA, AOA or other churches and he will not serve in their parishes nor does
he commemorate their hierarches. He will concelebrate with them when they
come to an OCA church and commemorate our hierarches.
Canonically Yours,
Vladimir
EddieEffie
>>Um, if I may ask, what is a traditionalist and how is the ROCOR more
traditional than the OCA?
OCA tends to reflect "local tradition" in what does and doesn't constitute
"fasting" diets (sore subject) while ROCOR is more rigid with the rules.
OCA tolerates pews in churches. ROCOR doesn't.
I'm OCA, but I have ROCOR sympathies.
Tony
Catherine Hampton
EddieEffie <eddie...@aol.com> wrote:
:>>Um, if I may ask, what is a traditionalist and how is the ROCOR more
:>>traditional than the OCA?
My opposite number. <wry grin> There are times when my bishops get
more rigid than I'm comfortable with. :/ Tony knows most of what
I'm about to say, at least about my confessor's parish, but for
the rest of you....
IMHO Matanna did an excellent job of explaining the overall
differences. There's so much overlap and so few hard-and-fast,
black and white things to point to, but there are real differences.
Still, it's possible to overstate these differences. I'm in ROCOR.
My parish priest has a trimmed beard and trimmed hair. My confessor,
who is in the OCA, has an untrimmed beard and hair. Both my parish
priest and confessor routinely wear their cassocks in public. (I've
seen my parish priest in black slacks and shirt only on camping
trips, where a cassock and hiking in thick brush do not mix well.)
:>
Neither church has "pews", although both have some benches or chairs
around the perimeter and in back, for elderly and sick people. Both
my parish priest and my confessor do a full Vigil the night before
liturgy, both on Sundays and on feast days. Both also do extra
services, such as Akathists, during fast periods and even at other
times. Both expect their parishioners to keep the fasts strictly,
to do the prayers of the church, and not to make excuses in
confession. ;>
Perhaps things are too lax in some OCA churches, and too rigid in
some ROCOR churches, but there are good parishes which uphold the
Faith we all hold in both groups.
durak
Jes...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6mp610$pn0$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
I
>still maintain that the ROCOR knows who the Romanov's are, the OCA doesn't
>know who the Hapsburg's were.
Oh, the OCA knows who the Romanovs are--or were. They just don't care. I
belonged to a parish at one time that had some of your Romanov lovers and
descendants of poor Carpathian immigrants. The Carpathian immigrants'
descendants were largely in the professions while the exalted Romanov lovers
carried the trays in the local restaurants.
I am
>making no value judgments, just trying to point out these very different
>"roots>
Your value judgments are evident throughout your entire post. I met arrogant
and pompous people like you in the church mentioned above.
tri...@ozemail.com.au
If the OCA follows the new calendar, don't they miss out the Holy Apostle's
fast or some other important feasts??
Nadya
tri...@ozemail.com.au
I didn't know both jurisdictions allowed you to confess in one and receive
communion in the other?
Nadya
In article <6mpb5m$i0t$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
Matanna
>If the OCA follows the new calendar, don't they miss out the Holy Apostle's
fast or some other important feasts??<
Yes, the Apostle's Fast is 13 days shorter, which in some years wipes it out
entirely.
Also, over the course of a few centuries, because of the difference in the
calculation of leap years, the difference will grow from 13 days to 14 to
15.... till eventually Nativity and Pascha will cross paths. But, not in our
lifetime. Or my kids'. Or my grandkids'. Or.....
Matushka Ann Lardas
Catherine Hampton
tri...@ozemail.com.au wrote:
: I didn't know both jurisdictions allowed you to confess in one and receive
: communion in the other?
They don't concelebrate, and aren't officially in communion with one
another, but both generally accept parishioners of the other for
communion.
nick cobb
I know OCA parishes will commune ROCOR lay people, but vise-versa, I don't think so. It is
exceptional!
nick cobb
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Dear Brother Nick;
>
> Yo are wrong and Caedmon is, as usual, right on the issue. I have, when my
> assignment takes me out on the road, been made welcome to receive the
> mysteries in ROCOR parishes. They are our brothers in the Russian Orthodox
> Church and as members of the Russian Orthodox Church they are totally
> canonical.
>
>
> Vladimir
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, now you've done it! You've exposed yourself as to who you really are. Caedmon is usually
right? The ROCOR is canonical? NOPE!
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com
In article <358FD6B3...@cris.com>,
Dear Brother Nick;
Yo are wrong and Caedmon is, as usual, right on the issue. I have, when my
assignment takes me out on the road, been made welcome to receive the
mysteries in ROCOR parishes. They are our brothers in the Russian Orthodox
Church and as members of the Russian Orthodox Church they are totally
canonical.
Canonically Yours,
Vladimir
EddieEffie
>>Still, it's possible to overstate these differences. I'm in ROCOR.
My parish priest has a trimmed beard and trimmed hair. My confessor,
who is in the OCA, has an untrimmed beard and hair. Both my parish
priest and confessor routinely wear their cassocks in public. (I've
seen my parish priest in black slacks and shirt only on camping
trips, where a cassock and hiking in thick brush do not mix well.)
:>
That's the west...
It wasn't till I went to St. Vlad's and St. Tikhon's that I saw priests walking
around in <gasp> clergy shirts or even polo shirts and slacks. Priests with NO
beards. No veils on the iconostasis. (The local church, an Antiochian, doesn't
even have Royal Doors; it has a Royal Archway. Ugh.)
Tony
WayneD...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35923689...@cris.com>,
Jordanville Monastery. I've experienced this and it's sad.
James (Wayne)
ku...@mystics.bungi.com
In article <35923689...@cris.com>, nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote:
>I know OCA parishes will commune ROCOR lay people, but vise-versa, I
>don't think so. It is exceptional!
Nicolas, depends where you go. Most Synod parishes just ask
"Are you Orthodox?" and that's that. Different parts of the US
have different attitudes, and from what I understand, Synod
parishes in Germany, Australia, England, New Zealand, South
America, etc, all have their different characteristics.
Some OCA parishes are very political about communion, treating
lay people as enemies of war, and same with some ROCOR parishes.
It all depends on the Bishop, and the priest in question.
Jordanville is, of course, of the strictest order, very spiritually
healthy but extremely strict of its own (monks and seminarians),
and likewise of non-Synodal Orthodox. Jordanville is basically
the center hub of the Synod, being the first and largest Orthodox
monastery in the US, having a printing press which sent Orthodox
literature to Communist alt.religion.christian.east-orthodoxRussia - in many cases the *only* way
that Orthodox Russians in Russia *could* get the materials
(for example, the Book of Needs stopped being published in
Russia for many decades during Communism and the only source
for priests in Russia (both catacomb and MP priests) of this
was through Jordanville.
Times are changing, but the waters are still choppy in Russia, and
it will take time for things to settle. They will, I have no doubt,
but give it time.
--
Philip the Apostle asked him, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
The Ethiopian answered, "How can I unless someone guides me?"
Kenneth, who is the Ethiopian
ku...@mystics.bungi.com
EddieEffie
>>and likewise of non-Synodal Orthodox. Jordanville is basically
the center hub of the Synod, being the first and largest Orthodox
monastery in the US,
Umm.... it may be the largest, but it wasn't the first. That was St. Tikhon's,
in NE Pennsylvania.
Tony
jmce...@hubbell.com
Odd, even I know that St. Tikhon's Monastery in So. Canaan, PA, predates the
arrival of the Synod in the US in 1950 by at least 20 years. They just
started a web site with their history but I did not save the URL. Can anyone
find the actual founding date of St. Tikhon's Monastery? I have only been
there once, but I remember seeing Fr. Toth's grave there, and I don't think
he was alive in my lifetime. I do appreciate their (Jordanville's) printing
press and realize its very important role in serving the Russian Church
during its captivity. I still have a little booklet, hard cover, with the
memorial service in English, and pages to write names of the living and the
dead in it. It has become the chronicle of my short life with all the names
in it. I understand it is no longer available since I tried to buy one for
each member of my parish. But Holy Trinity Monastery couldn't have been
founded before 1950. St. Tikhon's is much older and was probably the first
Orthodox monastery in the continental US. Fr. Joel McEachen
In article <iErk10yH...@mystics.bungi.com>,
ku...@mystics.bungi.com wrote:
>
> Jordanville is, of course, of the strictest order, very spiritually
> healthy but extremely strict of its own (monks and seminarians),
> and likewise of non-Synodal Orthodox. Jordanville is basically
> the center hub of the Synod, being the first and largest Orthodox
> monastery in the US,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
EddieEffie
>>Can anyone find the actual founding date of St. Tikhon's Monastery?
1905, by Saint Tikhon, then archbishop in America. He named the monastery for
his patron saint, St. Tikhon of Zadonsk. (The Antiochian bishop, Raphael, was
under him, BTW.)
Tony
Janet Purdy
On 26 Jun 1998, jasher wrote:
> ku...@mystics.bungi.com wrote:
> :
> : (for example, the Book of Needs stopped being published in
> : Russia for many decades during Communism and the only source
> : for priests in Russia (both catacomb and MP priests) of this
> : was through Jordanville.
>
> Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English? I was looking a few
> weeks ago but never saw anything to indicate that it is. Any help would
> be appreciated.
Uhhh...this sounds like something I should know. Pardon my ignorance
please, but what is the Book of Needs?
Thanks
Janet
>
> J. Asher, Charlotte, NC
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "I do believe I am a glowworm." -- Winston S. Churchill
>
> If you wish to reply to this post, put the words "Re: Your Post" or
> something like that in the subject line or it will be deleted on sight.
>
>
>
>
Robert G. Tallick
> But Holy Trinity Monastery couldn't have been
> founded before 1950. St. Tikhon's is much older and was probably the first
> Orthodox monastery in the continental US. Fr. Joel McEachen
St Tikhons was founded in 1938.
You can access their new web site which is still in the buidling process
at -
Robert G. Tallick
> St Tikhons was founded in 1938.
Sorry but I made a boo boo. It was the seminary that was founded in
1938 not the monastery which was founded around 1905.
Bob
nick cobb
--May 15, 1905, Cleveland Sobor proposed it.
--July 31, 1905, the monastery was dedicated by Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny.
--Aug. 2, 1905, clergy conference in Old Forge, PA named the monastery St. Tikhon's.
--
jmce...@hubbell.com wrote:
> Odd, even I know that St. Tikhon's Monastery in So. Canaan, PA, predates the
> arrival of the Synod in the US in 1950 by at least 20 years. They just
> started a web site with their history but I did not save the URL. Can anyone
> find the actual founding date of St. Tikhon's Monastery? I have only been
> there once, but I remember seeing Fr. Toth's grave there, and I don't think
> he was alive in my lifetime. I do appreciate their (Jordanville's) printing
> press and realize its very important role in serving the Russian Church
> during its captivity. I still have a little booklet, hard cover, with the
> memorial service in English, and pages to write names of the living and the
> dead in it. It has become the chronicle of my short life with all the names
> in it. I understand it is no longer available since I tried to buy one for
> each member of my parish. But Holy Trinity Monastery couldn't have been
> founded before 1950. St. Tikhon's is much older and was probably the first
> Orthodox monastery in the continental US. Fr. Joel McEachen
>
nick cobb
tad...@adsnet.com wrote:
> ...and Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, N.Y. was founded in 1930 by a
> formaer monk of St. Tikhon's, Archimandrite Panteleimon. Holy Trinity is the
> center of Orthodox monasticism because it is a real monastery not just in
> name only. The Comemoration Booklets of the Living and the Dead have been
> reprinted. They are still available at the bookstore in Jordanville.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
"...a real monastery not just in name only..." Oh no, another "holier than thou" ROCOR dweeb.
J.McEachen
St. Tikhon's Seminary was founded in 1938, contemporary with St.
Vladimir's and Holy Cross (which were successors to the closed Russian
Orthodox Theological School and St. Athanasios Seminary.) St. tikhon's
Monastery, according to the web site, was founded in 1905. And is the
first Orthodox monastery in America (lower 48?)
Robert G. Tallick wrote:
>
> > But Holy Trinity Monastery couldn't have been
> > founded before 1950. St. Tikhon's is much older and was probably
> > the first Orthodox monastery in the continental US.
> St Tikhons was founded in 1938.
tad...@adsnet.com
In article <6n0adm$u1t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
jmce...@hubbell.com wrote:
>
> Odd, even I know that St. Tikhon's Monastery in So. Canaan, PA, predates the
> arrival of the Synod in the US in 1950 by at least 20 years. They just
> started a web site with their history but I did not save the URL. Can anyone
> find the actual founding date of St. Tikhon's Monastery? I have only been
> there once, but I remember seeing Fr. Toth's grave there, and I don't think
> he was alive in my lifetime. I do appreciate their (Jordanville's) printing
> press and realize its very important role in serving the Russian Church
> during its captivity. I still have a little booklet, hard cover, with the
> memorial service in English, and pages to write names of the living and the
> dead in it. It has become the chronicle of my short life with all the names
> in it. I understand it is no longer available since I tried to buy one
for
> founded before 1950. St. Tikhon's is much older and was probably the first
>
> In article <iErk10yH...@mystics.bungi.com>,
> ku...@mystics.bungi.com wrote:
> >
> > Jordanville is, of course, of the strictest order, very spiritually
> > healthy but extremely strict of its own (monks and seminarians),
> > and likewise of non-Synodal Orthodox. Jordanville is basically
> > monastery in the US,
>
> Of course Alaska had the first monastery! St. Tikhon's was founded in 1905,
and Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, N.Y. was founded in 1930 by a
formaer monk of St. Tikhon's, Archimandrite Panteleimon. Holy Trinity is the
center of Orthodox monasticism because it is a real monastery not just in
name only. The Comemoration Booklets of the Living and the Dead have been
reprinted. They are still available at the bookstore in Jordanville.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
EddieEffie
>>St Tikhons was founded in 1938
The SEMINARY was founded in 1938. The monastery was there in 1905. St. Tikhon
founded it before he left for Moscow in 1917.
Tony
Chris Maas
Actually, Jordanville is celebrating its 50th anniversary this September!
.....> Holy Trinity Monastery couldn't have been
Janet Purdy
On 27 Jun 1998, jasher wrote:
> Janet Purdy (jane...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : On 26 Jun 1998, jasher wrote:
> : > ku...@mystics.bungi.com wrote:
> : > :
> : > : (for example, the Book of Needs stopped being published in
> : > : Russia for many decades during Communism and the only source
> : > : for priests in Russia (both catacomb and MP priests) of this
> : > : was through Jordanville.
> : >
> : > Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English? I was looking a few
> : > weeks ago but never saw anything to indicate that it is. Any help would
> : > be appreciated.
> :
> : Uhhh...this sounds like something I should know. Pardon my ignorance
> : please, but what is the Book of Needs?
>
> It is -- as far as I know -- a big book full of prayers for every occasion
> that priests and interested laymen use as part of worship. I don't know
> too much about them, but like you, had heard about them and thought it
> sounded like something important. Maybe one of our long-time Orthodox
> posters could add something to my inadequate description here. :=)
Well if it is published in English, I might like to know, sounds like it
would be interesting. By the way, thank you all for the wonderful advice
as to reading, etc you gave! Very helpful. I'll be gone for a week now,
but I'm sure I'll see you all again after that. :)_
Janet
>
> Sorry I couldn't tell you more --
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6msivc$l9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
WayneD...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <35923689...@cris.com>,
> ni...@cris.com wrote:
> >
> > I know OCA parishes will commune ROCOR lay people, but vise-versa, I don't
> think so. It is
> > exceptional!
> >
> >
> > > tri...@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> > >
> > > : I didn't know both jurisdictions allowed you to confess in one and receive
> > > : communion in the other?
> > >
> > > They don't concelebrate, and aren't officially in communion with one
> > > another, but both generally accept parishioners of the other for
> > > communion.
> > >
> > > Under the mercy,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
> > >
> > > (Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
> > > spam trap.)
> >
> >
> Unfortunately, what Nick says is all too true both at the parish level and
> Jordanville Monastery. I've experienced this and it's sad.
>
> James (Wayne)
>
With you quasi-protestant Nickofile theology, it is wonder that you are
receiving the mysteries in our jurisdiction (the OCA).
The fact is, Jimmy-boy and Nicky-boy, the ROCOR is a part of the Russian
Orthodox Church, and they are our brothers in the Russian Orthodox
Church and I had had no problem receiving the mysteries for ROCOR clergy
including those at Jordanville. The ROCOR is therefore a CANONICAL church
The Antiochians, under the leadership of that petty little tyrant Philip
Saliba, have demonstrated for all to see that they are not a canonical
Orthodox Church. This does not mean that I harbor any grudge against
the few laity and clergy that are honestly seeking the truth. It is their
Canonically Yours;
Vladimir
Robert M. Garrett
>ku...@mystics.bungi.com wrote:
>:
>: (for example, the Book of Needs stopped being published in
>: Russia for many decades during Communism and the only source
>: for priests in Russia (both catacomb and MP priests) of this
>: was through Jordanville.
>
>Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English? I was looking a few
>weeks ago but never saw anything to indicate that it is. Any help would
>be appreciated.
Yes, an abridged form is published by St. Tikhon's Seminary Press (1995).
Michael Garrett
Fukuoka, Japan
gar...@gol.com
ICQ 14675000
nick cobb
I told you; certifiable!
Stephen Kaznica
Robert M. Garrett wrote:
> In article <6n10d8$rin$1...@ralph.vnet.net> , jas...@vnet.net (jasher) wrote:
>
> >Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English? I was looking a few
> >weeks ago but never saw anything to indicate that it is. Any help would
> >be appreciated.
>
In addition to the excellent one published by St. Tikhon's , I understand that
St. John of Kronstadt Press in Libertyville, TN is working on a more complete
one to be ready sometime this year.
nick cobb
Totally untrue!
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <199806230319...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> caedm...@aol.com (Caedmontwo) wrote:
> >
> > >The ROCOR has isolated itself in being only in communion with itself and a
> > >select few other churches.
> >
> > That is not strictly accurate. ROCOR has ceased concelebration with everyone
> > except the Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarchates and certain Old Calendrist
> > groups in the old world. They have not cut communion, and laity of both the
> > various SCOBA jurisdictions and of ROCOR are generally free to commune in the
> > parishes of either.
> >
> > In Him,
> > the sinner Caedmon
> >
>
> Thank you, Caedmon. You have spoken the truth, I hope Nicky-boy will see the
> light of the truth.
>
> Canonically Yours,
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35924512...@cris.com>,
Sorry, brother Nick, it you who are WRONG.....WRONG.....WRONG. The ROCOR is
canonical, just as we in the OCA are. They are a part of the Russian Orthodox
Church, just like we were and therefore they are our brothers in the Russian
Orthodox Church.
Nick boy, on the personal side, I thought you were great when you were
challenging the SCOBA-ITE schismatics to correct themselves by joining us in
the OCA. However, you seem to change your position on the issues more than a
couple of horny grasshoppers. Perhaps Romaios was right and all you are is an
'archidiot.' Please cease from attacking our brothers in the Russian Orthodox
Church.
tad...@adsnet.com
In article <6n3gg6$fl8$1...@ralph.vnet.net>,
> : > ku...@mystics.bungi.com wrote:
> : > :
> : > : (for example, the Book of Needs stopped being published in
> : > : Russia for many decades during Communism and the only source
> : > : for priests in Russia (both catacomb and MP priests) of this
> : > : was through Jordanville.
> : > Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English? I was looking a few
> : > weeks ago but never saw anything to indicate that it is. Any help would
> : > be appreciated.
> : Uhhh...this sounds like something I should know. Pardon my ignorance
> : please, but what is the Book of Needs?
>
> It is -- as far as I know -- a big book full of prayers for every occasion
> that priests and interested laymen use as part of worship. I don't know
> too much about them, but like you, had heard about them and thought it
> sounded like something important. Maybe one of our long-time Orthodox
> posters could add something to my inadequate description here. :=)
>
>
> J. Asher, Charlotte, NC
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "I do believe I am a glowworm." -- Winston S. Churchill
>
> If you wish to reply to this post, put the words "Re: Your Post" or
> something like that in the subject line or it will be deleted on sight.
>
>
The Book of Needs is available in English, by St. Tikhon's Press. It is a
translation of the Russian 'Trebnik' or 'Euchologion' in Greek It is a book
of prayers and small occasional services.
tad...@adsnet.com
In article <35963758...@cris.com>,
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>
> I told you; certifiable!
>
> Vladim...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Jimmy-boy;
> > With you quasi-protestant Nickofile theology, it is wonder that you are
> > receiving the mysteries in our jurisdiction (the OCA).
> > The fact is, Jimmy-boy and Nicky-boy, the ROCOR is a part of the Russian
> > Orthodox Church, and they are our brothers in the Russian Orthodox
> > Church and I had had no problem receiving the mysteries for ROCOR clergy
> > including those at Jordanville. The ROCOR is therefore a CANONICAL church
> > The Antiochians, under the leadership of that petty little tyrant Philip
> > Saliba, have demonstrated for all to see that they are not a canonical
> > Orthodox Church. This does not mean that I harbor any grudge against
> > the few laity and clergy that are honestly seeking the truth. It is their
> > Canonically Yours;
> > Vladimir
When was the divorce, I thought Coleia and Vovo were OCA buddies?
Vladim...@my-dejanews.com
In article <199806230319...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
caedm...@aol.com (Caedmontwo) wrote:
>
> >The ROCOR has isolated itself in being only in communion with itself and a
> >select few other churches.
>
> That is not strictly accurate. ROCOR has ceased concelebration with everyone
> except the Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarchates and certain Old Calendrist
> groups in the old world. They have not cut communion, and laity of both the
> various SCOBA jurisdictions and of ROCOR are generally free to commune in the
> parishes of either.
>
> In Him,
> the sinner Caedmon
>
Thank you, Caedmon. You have spoken the truth, I hope Nicky-boy will see the
light of the truth.
Canonically Yours,
Vladimir
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Robert G. Tallick
> Jimmy-boy;
> With you quasi-protestant Nickofile theology, it is wonder that you are
> receiving the mysteries in our jurisdiction (the OCA).
Now WHO DOES THIS SOUND LIKE? Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
kal...@usa.net
In article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.98062...@dante31.u.washington.edu>, Janet
Purdy <jane...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> Well if it is published in English, I might like to know, sounds like it
> would be interesting. By the way, thank you all for the wonderful advice
> as to reading, etc you gave! Very helpful. I'll be gone for a week now,
> but I'm sure I'll see you all again after that. :)_
St. Tikhon's sells an edition in English. I picked up one about a month ago.
I don't remember if they are also the publisher, but they do have them at
their bookstore.
Evan
Stephen Kaznica
> > Pardon my ignorance
> > : please, but what is the Book of Needs?
>
The English version of The Book of Needs is an abridged version of the Russian
"Trebnik". Basically, it is a collection of prayers and services done for the most
part away from the church, with a few exceptions. It is an essential book for a
priest, but the layman can also benefit from it. Some of the contents include The
order of anointing of the sick, the cannon at the departing of the soul from the
body, prayers for a woman at hard labor, for those about to travel, prayers to be
said by those under a penance, blessings for just about anything you can think of,
and many others.
ORTHBAR
> The Book of Needs is available in English, by St. Tikhon's Press. It is a
>translation of the Russian 'Trebnik' or 'Euchologion' in Greek It is a
book
>of prayers and small occasional services.
In addition to the Trebnik in English, the Greek <Mikron Euchologion> is also
available in a bilingual version by Protopresbyter Evagoras Constantinides who,
at the time of its publication (1989), was Dean of St Constantine and St
Helen's Cathedral in Merriville, Indiana. It has a Foreword by Bishop
Kallistos and I'm sure can be easily obtained from any Orthodox bookstore.
FR ALBAN.
Dave Goode
>> : > Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English
St Tikhon's publish one, I think. I was looking through a copy in the
Cathedral bookshop on Sunday. Next time I go I'll check that it was
St Tikhon's and post the ISBN.
On second thoughts, check our parish web site below. From the front page,
choose the Dicoese of Sourozh link and you'll find all the details you need
there. Once you have the publisher or ISBN you can order a copy locally in
the US or, in extremis, you can order from the Cathedral...
Lord have mercy,
Dave
--
Dave Goode
City of Cambridge, England
remove the 'x's from my
return address to reply
Home Page and Electronic CV available at:
http://www.biosys.net/Dave.G/
Orthodox parish of St Ephraim the Syrian, Cambridge
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/aaes/st_ephraim/
John Hagen
Dave Goode wrote:
>
> >> : > Is the Book of Needs published *anywhere* in English
>
> St Tikhon's publish one, I think. I was looking through a copy in the
> Cathedral bookshop on Sunday. Next time I go I'll check that it was
> St Tikhon's and post the ISBN.
>
Is the Book of Needs useful or necessary if you are a layman???
Cheers,
--
john hagen - john.b...@boeing.com
====================================
EddieEffie
>>Is the Book of Needs useful or necessary if you are a layman???
Isn't it about time we changed the name of this thread?
No, it's not necessary. Is it useful? *No* book of prayer is useless.
Tosha
Dave Goode
John Hagen wrote in message <359A7A22...@boeing.com>...
>Is the Book of Needs useful or necessary if you are a layman???
Useful, yes, but not necessary for a layman. Therer are various books, the
Book of Needs, Orthodox prayer books, service books etc. that you'll find
useful.
It's generally best not to try to follow the liturgy or other services in a
book; just listen. But you may well want to study the texts of the services
for yourself in your own time as this will undoubtedly help a lot in
understanding them and familiarising yourself with the underlying theology.
Most of these books have the services of morning and evening prayers,
liturgy, prayers for various occasions, the eight tones for Sundays,
akathists and canons, preparation for and prayers after Holy Communion.
Don't, however, feel obliged, once you have such a book, to pray all the
prayers and services yourself. Familiarising yourself with the Trisagion
prayers, a few prayers to the Mother of God, and one or two others you like
may well be sufficient for daily usage, rather than the services of morning
and evening prayer in their entirety.
In our diocese, the shorter prayers in preparation for Holy Communion are
said aloud by the priest/bishop/metropolitan before communion is given,
though you'll often see people praying quietly to themselves or reading more
prayers from a book while the priests take Communion and the books are ideal
in this circumstance, for example.
Before you feel obliged to set yourself a rule of prayer, don't. Talk to
your priest and he'll assess your situation and set the right rule for you.
Many priests have little time laymen using these books, preferring to set a
simple routine of prayer that's easier to stick to on a regular basis.
I personally use the 1975 edition of the 1959 OCA Orthodox Prayer Book but
you should look at as many as you can and, after consulting
yourpriest/spiritual father, choose the one to suit you and that you feel
comfortable with.
Michael Matekovic
EddieEffie wrote:
>
> >>Is the Book of Needs useful or necessary if you are a layman???
>
>
> No, it's not necessary. Is it useful? *No* book of prayer is useless.
>
> Tosha
Could someone tell me what are some of the prayers in the Book of Needs
that would be applicable to a lay person? Thanks!
Mike Matekovic
Dave Goode
Michael Matekovic wrote in message <359B92...@erols.com>...
>Could someone tell me what are some of the prayers in the Book of Needs
>that would be applicable to a lay person? Thanks!
Check my very recent post or Jill's more recent reply for some of them.
There are many.