Theophany Holy Water Sends 117 Russians To Hospital
RVG
MOSCOW � More than 100 Russian Orthodox believers have been hospitalized
after drinking holy water during Epiphany celebrations in the eastern
city of Irkutsk, an official said Monday.
A total of 117 people, including 48 children, were in the hospital
complaining of acute intestinal pain after drinking water from wells in
and around a local church last week, said Vladimir Salovarov, a
spokesman for the Irkutsk Investigative Committee.
Salovarov said 204 people required some medical treatment after
consuming the water, the source of which was a stagnant lake. He said,
however, that it was too early to say what caused the illness.
Many Russians consider any water obtained on Epiphany � which they
celebrate on Jan. 19 � to be holy.
The water is typically bottled for consumption later. Tap water in most
of Russia is undrinkable.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/25/contaminated-holy-water-s_n_435098.html
--
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"La premi�re arme de la R�sistance c'est l'information." Lucie Aubrac
leushino
wrote:
And this story does not diminish the faith of these Russians nor does
it diminish my own faith. The world in which we move and have our
being is an imperfect one... a fallen one. Our Lord did not promise
that everything would be perfect. Sickness happens, death occurs (even
Lazarus ultimately died) and we should not expect that everything will
always go our way, as it were. In this world we have tribulation but
the "good news" is: our Lord has overcome this world. We've no way of
knowing the circumstances of this story other than the reporting and
we all know that every news report is always 100% accurate and always
has all of the facts. Right?
If you thought for a solitary moment that this story of yours would
prove your position (as an atheist) correct... would weaken our
resolve to remain steadfast Orthodox Christians... would dissuade some
seeker to the Faith... you're 100% wrong. It proves nothing other than
what I wrote above. And may our Lord forgive you for your continual
attacks on His Body. You are actually a person to be pitied, Vassily.
And as you grow older and your lack of faith proves of little comfort
to you, like Pharoah your hardened heart will not permit you recant. I
only pray that you turn from your unbelief before it is too late. For
we know from the scriptures that there comes a time in each of our
lives when the Spirit no longer strives with us. Hopefully that time
has not yet happened in your life.
RVG
> On Jan 28, 5:44 am, RVG<not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> gleefully
> wrote:
>
>
> And this story does not diminish the faith of these Russians nor does
> it diminish my own faith.
Of course: nothing can. That's the definition of fanaticism. When one
has trashed his brain, there's nothing left than to keep on driving
straight ahead, even into a wall.
> The world in which we move and have our
> being is an imperfect one... a fallen one.
From where and when exactly ?
> Our Lord did not promise
> that everything would be perfect. Sickness happens, death occurs
Really ? Duh!
>(even
> Lazarus ultimately died)
If he ever existed... It's quite strange that a guy risen from the dead
didn't become an instant celebrity.
> and we should not expect that everything will
> always go our way, as it were. In this world we have tribulation but
> the "good news" is: our Lord has overcome this world.
That means nothing.
> We've no way of
> knowing the circumstances of this story other than the reporting and
> we all know that every news report is always 100% accurate and always
> has all of the facts. Right?
>
> If you thought for a solitary moment that this story of yours would
> prove your position (as an atheist) correct...
I'm not an atheist stricto sensu. Just a doubter and a questioner.
As long as I don't have solid proof, I revoke in doubt: absence of proff
is proof of absence. Works in law (presumption of innocence), in science
and philosophy and in every domain where intelligence has its place.
> would weaken our
> resolve to remain steadfast Orthodox Christians... would dissuade some
> seeker to the Faith... you're 100% wrong. It proves nothing other than
> what I wrote above. And may our Lord forgive you for your continual
> attacks on His Body. You are actually a person to be pitied, Vassily.
> And as you grow older and your lack of faith proves of little comfort
> to you, like Pharoah your hardened heart will not permit you recant.
Fiction: the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt.
> I
> only pray that you turn from your unbelief before it is too late. For
> we know from the scriptures that there comes a time in each of our
> lives when the Spirit no longer strives with us. Hopefully that time
> has not yet happened in your life.
>
>
I'm happy to be mortal (as a man and as anything ever individualized).
And if I'm not, I'll keep on using my reason to try and know myself,
holding to the question: "Who am I?"
When I sleep, there's no "me", no body, no universe, no God. Yet nothing
changes in who and what I am. There's only one reality, this one Reality
that Spinoza called "Deus, sive natura" - God or, in other words, Nature.
What I am is neither this body nor the mind attached to this body.
Before I was born, I am. After "I" dies (sic), I am.
--
Jazz up your life!
Jazzez-vous la vie!
http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
"La premi�re arme de la R�sistance c'est l'information." Lucie Aubrac
AGG
***Just consider the radical left source for the "news" item.
AGG
> I'm not an atheist stricto sensu. Just a doubter and a questioner.
***Your anti-Orthodox and anti-religious statements are emphatic, and
this definately makes you a atheist. A doubter and questioner, or an
agnostic, never makes emphatic statements just in case there is truth.
AGG
***If you Google the words "contaminated holy water" you'll find only
radical, anti-religion web sites carrying this story. There apparently
is no mainstream media source, such as AP or UPI, or CNN, for this
"story."
--
Nate
> ***If you Google the words "contaminated holy water" you'll find only
> radical, anti-religion web sites carrying this story. There apparently
> is no mainstream media source, such as AP or UPI, or CNN, for this
> "story."
>
That's not true.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583810,00.html
Look below the date and you'll see this was reported by the Associate
Press. This is a public health alert that SHOULD be reported. If a
favored conservative source chooses to ignore it, shame on them.
They're no better than Pravda.
Anyone whose faith is supported or built upon by such miracle stories
has bigger problems than news outlets simply reporting the facts on the
ground.
AGG
***Thanks for the correction. Google didn't turn up ther FOXNews page.
--
infowolf1
> | 01/25/10 06:26 AM | AP
>
> after drinking holy water during Epiphany celebrations in the eastern
> city of Irkutsk, an official said Monday.
>
> A total of 117 people, including 48 children, were in the hospital
> complaining of acute intestinal pain after drinking water from wells in
> and around a local church last week, said Vladimir Salovarov, a
> spokesman for the Irkutsk Investigative Committee.
>
> Many Russians consider any water obtained on Epiphany – which they
> celebrate on Jan. 19 – to be holy.
you will notice this does NOT say that the water was actually blessed
in the church itself. but that many think that ANY water gotten on
that day in other words, from anywhere, is holy. Wrong.
a serious failure in Holy Water quality might occur if there is
something
really wrong with that congregation or its clergy, perhaps. A priest
told me there was some place where some incorrupt relic became
corrupt because of the peoples' sins.
Dismissing faith based on miracles is silly. Christianity is based
Christ's miraculous Resurrection for one thing. But failure of a
miracle
shouldn't disprove Orthodoxy in your mind, just raise other questions.
Justina
v1_0
> leushino a écrit :
>
> > On Jan 28, 5:44 am, RVG<not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> gleefully
> > wrote:
>
> > And this story does not diminish the faith of these Russians nor does
> > it diminish my own faith.
>
> Of course: nothing can. That's the definition of fanaticism. When one
> has trashed his brain, there's nothing left than to keep on driving
> straight ahead, even into a wall.
Or, perhaps to the conclusion that matter itself created itself ex-
nilho. (Big bang theory).
>
> > The world in which we move and have our
> > being is an imperfect one... a fallen one.
>
> From where and when exactly ?
>
> > Our Lord did not promise
> > that everything would be perfect. Sickness happens, death occurs
>
> Really ? Duh!
>
> >(even
> > Lazarus ultimately died)
>
> If he ever existed... It's quite strange that a guy risen from the dead
> didn't become an instant celebrity.
>
> > and we should not expect that everything will
> > always go our way, as it were. In this world we have tribulation but
> > the "good news" is: our Lord has overcome this world.
>
> That means nothing.
>
> > We've no way of
> > knowing the circumstances of this story other than the reporting and
> > we all know that every news report is always 100% accurate and always
> > has all of the facts. Right?
>
> > If you thought for a solitary moment that this story of yours would
> > prove your position (as an atheist) correct...
>
> I'm not an atheist stricto sensu. Just a doubter and a questioner.
> As long as I don't have solid proof, I revoke in doubt: absence of proff
> is proof of absence. Works in law (presumption of innocence), in science
> and philosophy and in every domain where intelligence has its place.
At some level you have faith in some living being. In God, if you
accept creation. In some other set of deities if you accept some
other non-evolution creation schema. Or in man if you accept the
creation schema that goes along with evolution.
"Absence of proof being proof of absence" is a neat saying, but a
logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Being that we are people, as much emotion as intelligence is applied
in those domain examples that you have given. Theoretically, the law
in the USA presumes we are innocent. But in reality, this is not
always the case - we are, after all, dealing with people. In many
countries it is quite the reverse, guilty until proven innocent. The
US military system (UCMJ) operates "guilty until proven innocent" too.
Besides all that, would you really want to live in a society that
based its acceptable behaviors (morals) on evolution?
>
> > would weaken our
> > resolve to remain steadfast Orthodox Christians... would dissuade some
> > seeker to the Faith... you're 100% wrong. It proves nothing other than
> > what I wrote above. And may our Lord forgive you for your continual
> > attacks on His Body. You are actually a person to be pitied, Vassily.
> > And as you grow older and your lack of faith proves of little comfort
> > to you, like Pharoah your hardened heart will not permit you recant.
>
> Fiction: the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt.
>
> > I
> > only pray that you turn from your unbelief before it is too late. For
> > we know from the scriptures that there comes a time in each of our
> > lives when the Spirit no longer strives with us. Hopefully that time
> > has not yet happened in your life.
>
> I'm happy to be mortal (as a man and as anything ever individualized).
> And if I'm not, I'll keep on using my reason to try and know myself,
> holding to the question: "Who am I?"
Perhaps a better question is "Why am I?"
>
> When I sleep, there's no "me", no body, no universe, no God. Yet nothing
> changes in who and what I am. There's only one reality, this one Reality
> that Spinoza called "Deus, sive natura" - God or, in other words, Nature.
I am assuming you mean "sleep" as in die. Not the nightly sleep/rest
thing.
>
> What I am is neither this body nor the mind attached to this body.
> Before I was born, I am. After "I" dies (sic), I am.
I am interested in how you reconcile something like the "phantom limb"
phenomina with this viewpoint.
-V
leushino
Excellent observations, Justina. In fact, my wife essentially said the
same thing when I discussed the news report with her.
RVG
> On Jan 28, 12:40 pm, RVG<not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 28, 5:44 am, RVG<not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> gleefully
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> And this story does not diminish the faith of these Russians nor does
>>> it diminish my own faith.
>>
>> Of course: nothing can. That's the definition of fanaticism. When one
>> has trashed his brain, there's nothing left than to keep on driving
>> straight ahead, even into a wall.
>
> Or, perhaps to the conclusion that matter itself created itself ex-
> nilho. (Big bang theory).
>
Not ex nihilo. The non-being is not.
There are several hypothesises(es-es):
- Our universe is the result of the massive crash of a previous universe
onto itself, creating a singularity. No information comes out of a black
hole, hence nothing can be known of this previous universe.
- The expansion of the universe is just a parallax illusion. This seems
to be confirmed by the images sent by the Hubble telescope.
- Matter doesn't exist, but only sense-data. Transcendantalist point of
view represented by George Berkeley.
- The eternal void contains energy. Not as two realities, but as
demonstrated in laboratories, when creating void one also creates some
amount of energy called dark energy. At some point, about 16.5 billion
years ago, the amount of energy became sufficient to create a universe,
but not necessarily as a Big Bang. The universe may well have started at
several places simultaneously.
- Another point of view, very far-fetched but quite funny too, is based
on Bell's inequalities, AKA quantum entanglement: the universe may be
one particle that is everywhere at the same time, and this particle is
"me". :-)
No, I prefer the liberty of doubt to the (false) certainty of faith.
Faith is the surrender of intelligence, taking dogmas for granted
without ever using one's intellectual abilities just to question.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
> "Absence of proof being proof of absence" is a neat saying, but a
> logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
>
> Being that we are people, as much emotion as intelligence is applied
> in those domain examples that you have given. Theoretically, the law
> in the USA presumes we are innocent. But in reality, this is not
> always the case - we are, after all, dealing with people. In many
> countries it is quite the reverse, guilty until proven innocent. The
> US military system (UCMJ) operates "guilty until proven innocent" too.
>
Yes, dictatorship, war and religion are three insults to rationality -
and liberty, both always walking hand in hand: they both progress
together or disappear together, like during the Western dark age of the
7th and 8th centuries.
> Besides all that, would you really want to live in a society that
> based its acceptable behaviors (morals) on evolution?
>
Evolution is such a slow process that it doesn't affect two or three
generations, so common sense is enough as a rule for morality.
Now, what were the moral values 40,000 years ago when *two* human
species, Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal, existed side by side ?
>>
>>> would weaken our
>>> resolve to remain steadfast Orthodox Christians... would dissuade some
>>> seeker to the Faith... you're 100% wrong. It proves nothing other than
>>> what I wrote above. And may our Lord forgive you for your continual
>>> attacks on His Body. You are actually a person to be pitied, Vassily.
>>> And as you grow older and your lack of faith proves of little comfort
>>> to you, like Pharoah your hardened heart will not permit you recant.
>>
>> Fiction: the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt.
>>
>>> I
>>> only pray that you turn from your unbelief before it is too late. For
>>> we know from the scriptures that there comes a time in each of our
>>> lives when the Spirit no longer strives with us. Hopefully that time
>>> has not yet happened in your life.
>>
>> I'm happy to be mortal (as a man and as anything ever individualized).
>> And if I'm not, I'll keep on using my reason to try and know myself,
>> holding to the question: "Who am I?"
>
> Perhaps a better question is "Why am I?"
>
I'm not sure that "I am" points to anything more than an impression or a
sentiment, not a real content. After all, when I sleep, reality is the
same without an "I" or a "me".
"I" points to the mind as an identification to the body, but what is the
mind if not just a complex or node of thoughts ? What are the roots of
these thoughts ? Hesychast practice helps see the mind at work creating
thoughts and patterns of thoughts. But what is there behind it ? - A
witness.
But where is this witness during deep sleep ? During sleep there's only
one reality which is neither the body, nor the mind (ie the ego) nor the
universe. Yet when you wake up all three "pop up" together.
I call this one Reality "Nature" in the sense given by Spinoza. It can
also be called "Atman" in the sense given by Shankara. The
differenciation established between "me" (the ego identified to this
body), the world and - hypothetically - God only concerns the wake mind.
Elder Sophrony wrote about that in the first chapters of "Videt' Boga
kak on est'/Seeing God as he is". In the three states of sleep, pure
prayer (ie the concentration of the mind on its own source or "heart")
and death, the ego, the universe and God (the Trinity, the personal
Saviour or any concept of a supernatural Creator) disappear yet nothing
is changed of the fabric of Reality.
>>
>> When I sleep, there's no "me", no body, no universe, no God. Yet nothing
>> changes in who and what I am. There's only one reality, this one Reality
>> that Spinoza called "Deus, sive natura" - God or, in other words, Nature.
>
> I am assuming you mean "sleep" as in die. Not the nightly sleep/rest
> thing.
>
No, it's true of deep sleep, devoid of dreams. When you sleep, where is
the ego ? the universe ? God ?
>>
>> What I am is neither this body nor the mind attached to this body.
>> Before I was born, I am. After "I" dies (sic), I am.
>
> I am interested in how you reconcile something like the "phantom limb"
> phenomina with this viewpoint.
>
The mind is attached to the body and, for the clairvoyants, way beyond
this frontier. Elder Porphyrios for example could feel your troubles and
ailments as his own, because his mind was always resting in the "heart",
the Self, that is One in all the beings. And invoking Jesus-Christ in
order to turn and dive your mind into the heart is exactly the praxis of
the hesychasts. As Saint Paul said: Christ is at the junction of mind
and heart. That is to say: exactly between the human ego of the Father,
between the droplet of foam and the Ocean, as superbly illustrated by
Hokusai in his painting "The Great Wave".
AGG
***What are you saying? If you put a few drops of arsenic in blessed
holy water people are going to get sick or worse, die.
--
Alexander Arnakis
<not....@themoment.org.invalid> wrote:
>| 01/25/10 06:26 AM | AP
>
>MOSCOW — More than 100 Russian Orthodox believers have been hospitalized
>after drinking holy water during Epiphany celebrations in the eastern
>city of Irkutsk, an official said Monday.
>
In my experience, holy water isn't for drinking, but rather for
anointing by sprinking, for example, when a priest does a house
blessing. Maybe this is a Russian custom. It's not a Greek custom.
But anyway, drinking water from an unknown source is the height of
stupidity. That's like the Hindus drinking the "holy waters" of the
Ganges at Varanasi, not far from where raw sewage is discharged into
the river. But then, the Indians have more natural resistance to such
infections, having grown up around unpurified water.
infowolf1
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:44:48 +0100, RVG
>
> >| 01/25/10 06:26 AM | AP
>
> >MOSCOW — More than 100 Russian Orthodox believers have been hospitalized
> >after drinking holy water during Epiphany celebrations in the eastern
> >city of Irkutsk, an official said Monday.
>
> In my experience, holy water isn't for drinking, but rather for
> anointing by sprinking, for example, when a priest does a house
> blessing. Maybe this is a Russian custom. It's not a Greek custom.
Really?! It is definitely a feature of Holy Water use in Russian and
Russian derived churches. I see drinking it is mentioned on the
Greek Orthodox website "Being sprinkled with or drinking holy water"
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/religioused/resources/what_your_child_should_know
Where do you go to church?
Justina
infowolf1
While something as extreme as arsenic might be a matter of the faith
of the individual (St. John Maximovitch got away with eating the
Holy Body of Christ that a rabies victim spat out instead of
swallowing),
there is a general anecdotal body of evidence that Holy Water, at
least the strongest stuff from Epiphany, is somewhat different in an
objective sense, incl. somehow being less able to transmit germs
in an active condition.
It is possible to pollute Holy Water, to where it is cloudy and weak,
but the same strained clean is strong again, to a person with
paranormal sight, and some scientist in Romania has found that
the optical features of water changes when it become Holy Water.
But you can't just take any water from anywhere on Epiphany
and assume it is Holy Water. It has to be blessed, not just dragged
out of any pond.
Justina
Nate
> While something as extreme as arsenic might be a matter of the faith
> of the individual (St. John Maximovitch got away with eating the
> Holy Body of Christ that a rabies victim spat out instead of
> swallowing),
Nasty, yes. Dangerous? Probably not. The alcohol content in the
elements sanitizes germs, hence the lack of epidemics within parishes
from sharing the same spoon.
> there is a general anecdotal body of evidence that Holy Water, at
> least the strongest stuff from Epiphany, is somewhat different in an
> objective sense, incl. somehow being less able to transmit germs
> in an active condition.
>
Ignorant crapola.
> It is possible to pollute Holy Water, to where it is cloudy and weak,
> but the same strained clean is strong again, to a person with
> paranormal sight, and some scientist in Romania has found that
> the optical features of water changes when it become Holy Water.
>
As a microbiologist, I have to call this bull. You can examine, under
the most advanced tools of modern science, the blessed waters or the
Holy Blood and Body of the Lord and all will be indistinguishable from
regular water, wine, and bread. This examination has been performed
countless times.
And there's no such thing as paranormal sight. Leave this foolishness
to the toll housers.
RVG
Or worse: cow carcasses are decomposing feet away from the bathers.
I saw a documentary the other day, there was this sanyasin
(non-possessing monk) sitting on a rock near the Ganges bank, and he
didn't take a bath there. Instead he says: "My eyes are bathed in the
spectacle of the perpetual changes carried by the waters of the sacred
river where everything comes, goes, is born, dies, rise again, etc. and
my mind is at peace in my heart."
Smart guy. :-)
--
Jazz up your life!
Jazzez-vous la vie!
http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
"La première arme de la Résistance c'est l'information." Lucie Aubrac
v1_0
> v1_0 a écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 28, 12:40 pm, RVG<not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>> On Jan 28, 5:44 am, RVG<not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> gleefully
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>> And this story does not diminish the faith of these Russians nor does
> >>> it diminish my own faith.
>
> >> Of course: nothing can. That's the definition of fanaticism. When one
> >> has trashed his brain, there's nothing left than to keep on driving
> >> straight ahead, even into a wall.
>
> > Or, perhaps to the conclusion that matter itself created itself ex-
> > nilho. (Big bang theory).
>
> Not ex nihilo. The non-being is not.
>
> There are several hypothesises(es-es):
>
> - Our universe is the result of the massive crash of a previous universe
> onto itself, creating a singularity. No information comes out of a black
> hole, hence nothing can be known of this previous universe.
Is it not also true that neither matter nor energy comes out of a
black hole as well? I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad, as the song goes.
>
> - The expansion of the universe is just a parallax illusion. This seems
> to be confirmed by the images sent by the Hubble telescope.
I don't see the theory in this - it seems more an observation. One
that would certainly complicate the big-bang theory.
>
> - Matter doesn't exist, but only sense-data. Transcendantalist point of
> view represented by George Berkeley.
Ooo! This one actually almost necessitates the existance of some God
(like intelligence, at least) so that things that are not being
observed by some (lesser) intelligence would continue to exist.
>
> - The eternal void contains energy. Not as two realities, but as
> demonstrated in laboratories, when creating void one also creates some
> amount of energy called dark energy. At some point, about 16.5 billion
> years ago, the amount of energy became sufficient to create a universe,
> but not necessarily as a Big Bang. The universe may well have started at
> several places simultaneously.
This really doesn't solve a lot - as the whole issue of "what created
the void which created the energy" (and also, what did the void
replace...)
>
> - Another point of view, very far-fetched but quite funny too, is based
> on Bell's inequalities, AKA quantum entanglement: the universe may be
> one particle that is everywhere at the same time, and this particle is
> "me". :-)
[...]
>
> > At some level you have faith in some living being. In God, if you
> > accept creation. In some other set of deities if you accept some
> > other non-evolution creation schema. Or in man if you accept the
> > creation schema that goes along with evolution.
>
> No, I prefer the liberty of doubt to the (false) certainty of faith.
> Faith is the surrender of intelligence, taking dogmas for granted
> without ever using one's intellectual abilities just to question.
>
> "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
In that case, you are putting faith in your doubt.
>
> > "Absence of proof being proof of absence" is a neat saying, but a
> > logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
>
> > Being that we are people, as much emotion as intelligence is applied
> > in those domain examples that you have given. Theoretically, the law
> > in the USA presumes we are innocent. But in reality, this is not
> > always the case - we are, after all, dealing with people. In many
> > countries it is quite the reverse, guilty until proven innocent. The
> > US military system (UCMJ) operates "guilty until proven innocent" too.
>
> Yes, dictatorship, war and religion are three insults to rationality -
> and liberty, both always walking hand in hand: they both progress
> together or disappear together, like during the Western dark age of the
> 7th and 8th centuries.
I'm saying that rationality is the exception - or perhaps luxury.
Like 95% of people make decisions based on "emotional reasoning"
rather than rationality. I'm hopeful that this varies based on the
type of decision being made...
>
> > Besides all that, would you really want to live in a society that
> > based its acceptable behaviors (morals) on evolution?
>
> Evolution is such a slow process that it doesn't affect two or three
> generations, so common sense is enough as a rule for morality.
Not so. If you truly believe in evolution, then you would need to
adopt a set of morals consistant with it. Basically, survival of the
fittest. If you can 'get away with it' you should do it - if it
benefits you and yours. Natural selection should not be interfered
with, etc.
>
> Now, what were the moral values 40,000 years ago when *two* human
> species, Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal, existed side by side ?
>
[...]
> > Perhaps a better question is "Why am I?"
>
> I'm not sure that "I am" points to anything more than an impression or a
> sentiment, not a real content. After all, when I sleep, reality is the
> same without an "I" or a "me".
> "I" points to the mind as an identification to the body, but what is the
> mind if not just a complex or node of thoughts ? What are the roots of
> these thoughts ? Hesychast practice helps see the mind at work creating
> thoughts and patterns of thoughts. But what is there behind it ? - A
> witness.
>
> But where is this witness during deep sleep ? During sleep there's only
> one reality which is neither the body, nor the mind (ie the ego) nor the
> universe. Yet when you wake up all three "pop up" together.
Well, I would say that just because you don't remember these things
still being present doesn't mean that they aren't still there. What I
am saying is you are basing your theory that there is no mind/ego/
sensing going on during sleep on your memories. What if it's only
your memory that is affected during sleep? That mind/ego/sensing
continue, albeit at a reduced level. After all, none of the sleep
EEGs show a 'flat line' - there is always some activity going on.
And, external stimuli can/will wake us - showing that we are aware of
the external at some level.
> http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
>
> "La première arme de la Résistance c'est l'information." Lucie Aubrac-
>