troy thread contd
vince garcia
>
> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:28:35 -0700, vince garcia
> <vgga...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Troy Harris wrote:
>
> >> >Now where the heck am I going to learn that in Christianity? I'll wager
> >> >you've never heard that either.
> >>
> >> I have always believed it- and it is taught in the seminary I
> >> attended!
> >
> >you mean you know the word "chazen" and exactly what he was and did?
>
> Yep, but the word in the Greek is "angelos"....chazen and presbyter
> seem to have a similar function.
> I can even go one more. I call tell you which bishops are most likely
> the angels in the letters. History and tradition are great helpers
> sometimes.
very true. problem is keeping them in perspective
>
> >(actually you know it from the Catholic understanding not the jewish,
> >and there is a difference--but i am impressed. I know legit PhD scholars
> >who are unaware of this)
>
> So do I.
>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Another gripe is the lack of understanding of the Pharisees. If all you
> >> >have is the Bible and post-apostolic tradition, you have a skewed
> >> >understanding of who and what the Pharisees were. When I finally was
> >> >taught about the REAL Pharisees and the background of the times by a
> >> >Jewish PhD who wasn't hostile to christianity it opened up the Gospels
> >> >to me in a way I was unaware of before and again--many things began to
> >> >fall into place in a logical way that was lacking throughout the
> >> >spectrum of education I had received in the decades previously.
> >>
> >> Not sure about what you are saying.
> >
> >i will email you on this
>
> I look forward to it.
>
> >
> >>
> >> >> I think it is the proper and clear continuation of the OT ministry,
> >> >> church, and institution.
> >> >>
> >> >> For example.:
> >> >> Take the liturgy. Go to a synagogue, and see where the Church got
> >> >> her chants, readings, antiphonal characteristics in worship, ceremony
> >> >> and so forth. You will be pleasantly surprised.
> >> >
> >> >yes, i can see some jewish roots, but the problem is with the theology.
> >> >I cannot, no matter how hard i try, reconcile much of it with Scripture.
> >>
> >> Again, I do not see what theology you reject, only that you reject the
> >> politics of the Christian church.
> >
> >two examples: statues in church and praying to the saints as
> >intercessors. Show me either in judaism or the old testament and i may
> >change my mind
> >
>
> (I will use the whole Bible, but start in the OT).
>
> Statues and icons:
> The two Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, carved. (Ex 22)
> The Brazen Serpent, looked upon for healing. Carved. (Num 21)
> The images and Statues of Soloman's Temple. Carved. (1 Ki 6)
> Prayer was done before the Ark of the Covenant. (Josh 7) (and
> obviously in the Temple)
>
> Intercession:
>
> Prolegomena:
> a) Intercession is one praying for another.
>
> b) One is told to ask for the intercession of the righteous.
> Examples-
> - God told Abimelech to let Abraham pray for him that he might
> receive God's forgiveness. (Gen 20)
> - God told Job's three friends to let Job pray for them, that
> they might be forgiven, as He did not accept their prayers. (Job 42)
> - God revealed the demise of Sodom to Abraham (Gen 18:17-
> important point), and he interceeded for Sodom. God also did this
> for Israel, revealing His punishment upon them to Moses, who
> interceded and saved them from destruction. (Ex 32).
>
> c) The departed have favor before God, being in righteousness. God
> often has mercy in the living because of the righteousness of the
> departed. (1 Ki 11:12,13, 31, 32, 34)
>
> d) The departed know our earthly condition.
> Examples:
> - There is joy in Heaven for the sinner who repents. (Lk 15)
> - Abraham knew the life of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16)
> - (BTW- how did Elijah write the letter to King Jeroham when had
> had departed many years before? 2 Chron 21)
>
> e) The departed and the Angels pray for us.
> Examples:
> - the Angels before the throne in Heaven. (Rev 8)
yes--true the angels DO intercede for us. The dead doing likewise is
arguable
> - The 24 Elders in heaven (Rev 5)
> - The martyrs in Heaven (Rev 6)
keep in mind Abel's blood cried out to God. This didn't mean Abel
himself was before God intercedeing, but the facts regarding him were
what was crying out. Ditto the martyrs
vince garcia
vince garcia
>
> In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
>
> Dear Vince,
> >yes--true the angels DO intercede for us. The dead doing likewise is
> >arguable
>
> >
> >> - The 24 Elders in heaven (Rev 5)
> >> - The martyrs in Heaven (Rev 6)
>
> word of God and for the testimony which they held (therefore very
> dead)..And they CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE SAYING,how long, O LORD, holy
> and true, UNTIL YOU JUDGE AND AVENGE OUR BLOOD ON THOSE WHO DWELL ON
> THE EARTH.' (Intercession) Rev 6:9,10.
> >
> >keep in mind Abel's blood cried out to God. This didn't mean Abel
> >himself was before God intercedeing, but the facts regarding him were
> >what was crying out. Ditto the martyrs
>
> secondly the first does not explain away the second.
>
> Ables blood cried out of course is figurative, the martyrs before the
> throne were and are actuall souls seen by St John. There are other
> examples, Try on Mt of Transfiguration when Elijah and Moses (both
> dead) SPOKE with Jesus about things soon to be accomplished in
> Jerusalem (intercession).
>
> Try taking away the foundatioal rejection of this blessed truth and
> you will suddenly see it all through the Scripture. Look again at
> Elijah, Jacob, Daniel, Samuel, Onesiphorus, most of the Book of
> Revelation etc.
>
> He,who has neither the repentance of the Tax Collector, nor the good deeds of the Pharisee.
>
> "The Word was made flesh in order to offer up this Body for all,
> and that we, partaking of His Spirit, might be deified."
> Saint Athanasius the Apostolic. 298-373 AD.
Even if you are right, this still is not an endorsement for us to ask
THEM for intercession. And really, a chief problem with the whole idea
which Catholocism misses is that the entire concept is meant to have a
greater chance of getting God to give us OUR will for our lives and
answer our prayers as WE think He should. If the intercession of Jesus
Christ isn't sufficient to get God to heal me, bless me, etc., why would
I want to seek added pressure to "convince" God I know best what He
should do in my life?
v
St.Athanasius
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Vince,
Hi again, I just noticed all the groups this is
going too, I didn't realise this at first. I will answer this post as
is, but any future I will snip all those not related to Australia-OK.
You stated.
>Even if you are right, this still is not an endorsement for us to ask
>THEM for intercession.
I respond:
The Psalmist said, "Remember, O Lord, thy servant David." This is the
same spirit with which the orthodox asks for the intercessions of the
saints. The Lord favoured Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, blessed them and
promised them that the faithful would come through them. We still say
in the Orthodox Liturgy, Remember O Lord, our fathers, Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob, and have mercy upon us. This is exactly the same spirit as
the psalmist. (Which was inspired by God the Holy Spirit).
Also to your point St Paul commands us through the Holy Spirit to
"pray for one another", we also have to remember one another. This
intercession does not cease just at physical seperation from one
another or from the world. Since the spirit and conscience are
eternal, they do not cease at death but go on, with God in His
presence and they may, with the angels pray for us before the throne
of God.
I believe that you have conceeded that angels interceed for us, there
should be no problems for the saints who are higher than the angels
being made in the image of God.
> And really, a chief problem with the whole idea
>which Catholocism misses is that the entire concept is meant to have a
>greater chance of getting God to give us OUR will for our lives and
>answer our prayers as WE think He should.
I respond.
I am answering from the Orthodox position, not the Roman catholic one.
There are subtle differences, but important ones to us.
Your statement equally applies to vain prayers by evangelicals as
well. It is the prayer and its intent that is wrong not the
intercessors that are being requested.
You said:
>If the intercession of Jesus
>Christ isn't sufficient to get God to heal me, bless me, etc., why would
>I want to seek added pressure to "convince" God I know best what He
>should do in my life?
I respond:
This is not an either/or situation. You forget Christ is God-not
seperated from the One Essence of the Holy Trinity, so that when you
say Christ interceeds for you, this is true, but realize that this
intercession is not seperate already from the Nature of God. Either
this or you have seperated the nature of God into two, or Christ into
two which are two very wrong false teachings.
As to the intercessary part, Remember it is God Himself that commands
us to prayerfully interceed for each other-"Pray for one another", "is
anyone among you sick, call the elders of the Church, who will anoint
him with oil and confess his sins. The fervent prayer of a righteous
man avails much." " Elijah was a man like ourselves, but he prayed to
God for it not to rain and it did not rain on the earth for three
years" etc etc. God demands that all Christians, everywhere, in heaven
and on earth pray for each other and ask each for prayer.
Once your block to this is removed you will see the spiritual
intercession for what it is.
Finally, we are not attempting to 'convince' God of anything, but
rather, through this spiritual prayer enter more deeply into His
reveraled will and as such our prayers will be more according to His
will-not ours.
Glory be to God.
Peace.
George Politis
> The Psalmist said, "Remember, O Lord, thy servant David." This is the
> same spirit with which the orthodox asks for the intercessions of the
> saints. The Lord favoured Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, blessed them and
> promised them that the faithful would come through them. We still say
> in the Orthodox Liturgy, Remember O Lord, our fathers, Abraham, Isaac
> and Jacob, and have mercy upon us. This is exactly the same spirit as
> the psalmist. (Which was inspired by God the Holy Spirit).
I think the sense here is that you are asking God to honour the
promises he made, initially to David, Abraham, etc., but which
flow on to us. There is no reason to treat this as intercession.
> Also to your point St Paul commands us through the Holy Spirit to
> "pray for one another", we also have to remember one another. This
> intercession does not cease just at physical seperation from one
> another or from the world. Since the spirit and conscience are
.........here we go again.......I think you mean consciousness......
> eternal, they do not cease at death but go on, with God in His
> presence and they may, with the angels pray for us before the throne
> of God.
This has been a debated topic. Even if you are right, which you
probably are, it doesn't follow that they may pray on our behalf,
though. We have no example from Scripture of a dead person praying
for a living person, although I would be willing to stand corrected.
[snip]
> This is not an either/or situation. You forget Christ is God-not
> seperated from the One Essence of the Holy Trinity, so that when you
> say Christ interceeds for you, this is true, but realize that this
> intercession is not seperate already from the Nature of God. Either
> this or you have seperated the nature of God into two, or Christ into
> two which are two very wrong false teachings.
Not at all. God is three in one. The Son has a relationship with
the Father, one in which he can intercede for us in accordance with
the Father's will.
> As to the intercessary part, Remember it is God Himself that commands
> us to prayerfully interceed for each other-"Pray for one another", "is
> anyone among you sick, call the elders of the Church, who will anoint
> him with oil and confess his sins. The fervent prayer of a righteous
> man avails much." " Elijah was a man like ourselves, but he prayed to
> God for it not to rain and it did not rain on the earth for three
> years" etc etc. God demands that all Christians, everywhere, in heaven
> and on earth pray for each other and ask each for prayer.
A good point that I don't dispute.
> Finally, we are not attempting to 'convince' God of anything, but
> rather, through this spiritual prayer enter more deeply into His
> reveraled will and as such our prayers will be more according to His
> will-not ours.
I am glad to see that you have the right idea. However, the
idea of praying to saints encourages the misconceptions
that Vince pointed out.
Troy Harris
<vgga...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Troy Harris wrote:
>> >you mean you know the word "chazen" and exactly what he was and did?
>>
>> Yep, but the word in the Greek is "angelos"....chazen and presbyter
>> seem to have a similar function.
>> I can even go one more. I call tell you which bishops are most likely
>> the angels in the letters. History and tradition are great helpers
>> sometimes.
>
>very true. problem is keeping them in perspective
Right.
>>
>> e) The departed and the Angels pray for us.
>> Examples:
>> - the Angels before the throne in Heaven. (Rev 8)
>
>yes--true the angels DO intercede for us. The dead doing likewise is
>arguable
Arguabel perhaps, but still, the pictures in Rev are clear- the
saints' prayers , the elders, the martyrs, and the angels all offered
before God together, and the picture is of an angel with them them all
in a censor offering them to God.
>
>> - The 24 Elders in heaven (Rev 5)
>> - The martyrs in Heaven (Rev 6)
>
>keep in mind Abel's blood cried out to God. This didn't mean Abel
>himself was before God intercedeing, but the facts regarding him were
>what was crying out. Ditto the martyrs
The blood of Abel crying out is obviously idiomatic, according to the
context.
However, the martrys are alive, before God, pleading for a recompense.
This is not the blood of the martyrs crying out, but the martyrs
themselves interceding for the earth. Have a closer read of it.
Troy H
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Troy Harris
"Hör visheten ropar, och förståndet höjer sin röst"- Ordspråksboken 8:1
"Withdraw from evil, work good, and seek peace" - St John of the Cross
vince garcia
>
> In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
>
> Dear Vince,
>
> Hi again, I just noticed all the groups this is
> going too, I didn't realise this at first. I will answer this post as
> is, but any future I will snip all those not related to Australia-OK.
>
> You stated.
> >Even if you are right, this still is not an endorsement for us to ask
> >THEM for intercession.
>
> I respond:
> same spirit with which the orthodox asks for the intercessions of the
> saints. The Lord favoured Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, blessed them and
> promised them that the faithful would come through them. We still say
> in the Orthodox Liturgy, Remember O Lord, our fathers, Abraham, Isaac
> and Jacob, and have mercy upon us. This is exactly the same spirit as
> the psalmist. (Which was inspired by God the Holy Spirit).
>
> "pray for one another", we also have to remember one another. This
> intercession does not cease just at physical seperation from one
> another or from the world. Since the spirit and conscience are
> presence and they may, with the angels pray for us before the throne
> of God.
>
> should be no problems for the saints who are higher than the angels
> being made in the image of God.
actually the scripture is more clear on angels interceding for us than
dead saints. Even so, no encouragement to invoke them as intercessors.
>
> > And really, a chief problem with the whole idea
> >which Catholocism misses is that the entire concept is meant to have a
> >greater chance of getting God to give us OUR will for our lives and
> >answer our prayers as WE think He should.
>
> I respond.
> I am answering from the Orthodox position, not the Roman catholic one.
> There are subtle differences, but important ones to us.
>
> Your statement equally applies to vain prayers by evangelicals as
> well. It is the prayer and its intent that is wrong not the
> intercessors that are being requested.
>
> You said:
> >If the intercession of Jesus
> >Christ isn't sufficient to get God to heal me, bless me, etc., why would
> >I want to seek added pressure to "convince" God I know best what He
> >should do in my life?
>
> I respond:
> This is not an either/or situation. You forget Christ is God-not
> seperated from the One Essence of the Holy Trinity, so that when you
> say Christ interceeds for you, this is true, but realize that this
> intercession is not seperate already from the Nature of God. Either
> this or you have seperated the nature of God into two, or Christ into
> two which are two very wrong false teachings.
>
> As to the intercessary part, Remember it is God Himself that commands
> us to prayerfully interceed for each other-"Pray for one another", "is
> anyone among you sick, call the elders of the Church, who will anoint
> him with oil and confess his sins. The fervent prayer of a righteous
> man avails much." " Elijah was a man like ourselves, but he prayed to
> God for it not to rain and it did not rain on the earth for three
> years" etc etc. God demands that all Christians, everywhere, in heaven
> and on earth pray for each other and ask each for prayer.
>
> Once your block to this is removed you will see the spiritual
> intercession for what it is.
You are making reasonable points in so far as what we should do in THIS
life. But again, the Bible in no way explicitly teaches nor shows we
should pray to the DEAD for this. It's a supreme stretch, in my opinion,
to extend this out to the dead. And the rpoblem is that the average lay
person who engages in the practice doesn't have a clear understanding of
the idea and in fact prays TO the saints to aid them directly. Just look
at your local newspaper--i guarantee you will see some person posting a
prayer to st Jude to do some service for them that goes beyond
intercession to an invocation to answer prayer out of his own volition
and power.
>
> Finally, we are not attempting to 'convince' God of anything, but
> rather, through this spiritual prayer enter more deeply into His
> reveraled will and as such our prayers will be more according to His
> will-not ours.
well, that sounds nice but makes no sense to me. if I'm invoking a saint
for intercession, i want him to bend God's ear to get God to do what I
want Him to. Otherwise it's the Holy Spirit who is supposed to lead me
intio all truth--the saints play no role in this.