@ ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT QUESTIONS TO ANY BIBLE STUDENT @
OB...@aol.com
again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
sinners .
I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
the saved sinners ?
Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
people in false christian churches had not noticed .
We read in 1 Timothy 2.5 that was written after Jesus rose and went to
heaven that there is one mediator between God and men ;the man Jesus
Christ.
We read that Jesus is the same all the time
( yesterday,today,tomorrow ) -Hebrews 13.8 .
Harold Camping of the Family Radio Stattions who is declaring the year
2011 AD as the year Jesus Christ will come back could not answer that
and he resorted to that we cannot understand God.He said Jesus is God,
implying he could not die ; but he claims also the opposite that God
died and we cannot understand that .He doesn't understand he is
talking contradictions and resorts to simple explanation God is a
mystery and we cannot understand God and we should not try to do it
and that is the technique he also uses when the Trinity issue comes
out.
I think that using the doctrine of eternal hell we cannot explain the
redemptive death of Jesus and that could be another blow to most
christian churches who teach eternal hell.
Clarence D
<OB...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:584300fa-ae92-4f2d...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
> sinners .
> I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
> So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
> the saved sinners ?
Because he had no sin, only sinner will die in hell.
>
> Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
> my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
> to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
> went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
> one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
> people in false christian churches had not noticed .
Don't believe one word that the Jeovah witness's say, there wrong about
everything, Jesus was God in the flesh, the name Jesus means Jehovah is the
Saviour, the son of God was only one of his names.Luke,1:35, John.1:14, and
many other places.
>
> We read in 1 Timothy 2.5 that was written after Jesus rose and went to
> heaven that there is one mediator between God and men ;the man Jesus
> Christ.
We have to pray only to the Father, and always in the name of Jesus Christ
in reognition of him.
>
> We read that Jesus is the same all the time
> ( yesterday,today,tomorrow ) -Hebrews 13.8 .
>
> Harold Camping of the Family Radio Stattions who is declaring the year
> 2011 AD as the year Jesus Christ will come back could not answer that
> and he resorted to that we cannot understand God.He said Jesus is God,
> implying he could not die ; but he claims also the opposite that God
> died and we cannot understand that .He doesn't understand he is
> talking contradictions and resorts to simple explanation God is a
> mystery and we cannot understand God and we should not try to do it
> and that is the technique he also uses when the Trinity issue comes
> out.
The trinity is easy to understand if you study, we are all
trinity,1.Cor.15:44, we all have a natural body and a heavenly body and we
all have a spirit, we were in our heavenly body first then we came in our
eatlhly body and when we die we go back in our heavenly body, flesh and
blood cannot go to heaven, therefore the body that the aposels saw after
Jesus died was not the the flesh body of Jesus, it was the body of God, when
God said let us make man [flesh] in our image he included himself.
Magda
> If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
> sinners .
"Jesus" is like his name is - the teaching of all kinds of salvation.
Non of your questions reach that point.
The stories of the Bible should be read different.
Ages - they had been misunderstood.
So do not worry about hell - is meens just "question" - ask.
Even that is hard enough.
You can also rise. A lot is rising, plants, plans ...
gabriel
<OB...@aol.com> wrote:
: If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
: again ?
It was already prophesied that He would rise from death on the
third day. He rose again defeating death, proving He was God. If
He did not rise again, then He would not have defeated death.
Luke 24:46 KJV
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it
behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third
day:
All are made alive by the fact that Christ resurrected. If Christ
be not resurrected but remained dead, we are still dead in our
sins.
1 Corinthians 15:12-24 KJV
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how
say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is
Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain,
and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we
have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised
not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are
yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of
all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be
made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the
kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all
rule and all authority and power.
: He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
: sinners .
: I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
: So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
: the saved sinners ?
:
: Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
: my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
: to the earth to become a man.
This is incorrect. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
He is the great "I am"
John 8:58 KJV
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:37-38 KJV
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works:
that ye may know, and believe, that ~the Father is in me, and I
in him.~
John 14:8-11 KJV
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it
sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 1:1-3, 10, 14-15 KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the
Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he
of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.
Matthew 1:23 KJV
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
For a person to not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh is to
not be saved and to still be on one's way to hell.
John 1:12 KJV
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:36 KJV
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and
he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath
of God abideth on him.
John 14:11 KJV
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
or else believe me for the very works' sake.
: So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
: went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel.
It is a damnable heresy to deny that Christ was God in the flesh,
but instead merely an angel.
John 1:1-3, 10, 14-15 KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the
Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he
of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.
The Jehovah Witness bible changes verse one to say " .. and the
Word was ~a~ God" - when it clearly says ".. and the word ~was~
God".
: This could be
: one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
: people in false christian churches had not noticed .
:
: We read in 1 Timothy 2.5 that was written after Jesus rose and went to
: heaven that there is one mediator between God and men ;the man Jesus
: Christ.
:
: We read that Jesus is the same all the time
: ( yesterday,today,tomorrow ) -Hebrews 13.8 .
:
: Harold Camping of the Family Radio Stattions who is declaring the year
: 2011 AD as the year Jesus Christ will come back could not answer that
: and he resorted to that we cannot understand God.
Harold Camping is teaching false doctrines.
He makes up heretical allegorical interpretation of the Bible -
where a person can claim certain things have certain meanings,
and pretty much make any claim seem true if you twist allegorical
meaning into passages that are clearly not intended to have
hidden meanings made about them.
Seminar that explains the fallacy of allegorical interpretation
of Camping, letting you hear the exact false allegorical
interpretations he imposes on the Bible, all in the name of his
eyes being opened to see such things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB3KbvCqgS8
Watch it and realize how lost people like Harold Camping is in
his personally imposed allegorical meanings to most everything he
reads.
He claimed the world would end in 1994, using the same faulty
allegorical interpretations. He was wrong. This PROVES he has no
idea what he's talking about, and he's doing it again - and the
blind continue to follow the blind, thinking by some miracle this
time he'll be right. =(
Meanwhile people are fooled into not going to church anymore,
which you can't partake in the Lord's supper in Church in
remembrance of Him.
1 Corinthians 11:18-22 KJVR For first of all, when ye come
together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you;
and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies
among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest
among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place,
this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every
one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and
another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to
drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that
have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I
praise you not.
Where you can't be baptized anymore. Where you can't even get
married in your church anymore. But no one thinks of all those
contradictions - and when camping is pressed on those issues, he
stammers unable to answer the questions.
Watch the video and learn the truth - let others know before they
are pulled out of their church by his heretical teachings.
Psalms 46:10 KJVR Be still, and know that I am God: I will be
exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
: He said Jesus is God,
: implying he could not die ; but he claims also the opposite that God
: died and we cannot understand that .He doesn't understand he is
: talking contradictions and resorts to simple explanation God is a
: mystery and we cannot understand God and we should not try to do it
: and that is the technique he also uses when the Trinity issue comes
: out.
:
: I think that using the doctrine of eternal hell we cannot explain the
: redemptive death of Jesus and that could be another blow to most
: christian churches who teach eternal hell.
It's actually a blow to any church that teaches Jesus Christ was
not God in the flesh. Anyone who believes that is not believing
on Jesus Christ and is not saved.
John 1:12 KJV
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:36 KJV
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and
he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath
of God abideth on him.
John 14:11 KJV
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
or else believe me for the very works' sake.
But you don't seem to want to learn about what God says, as you
just delete the scripture that contradicts what you say. But if
you insist on not learning from it, hopefully others will.
duke
>If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
>again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
>sinners .
That's an easy one. He didn't die in the *place* of others. His death was one
of example of total obedience to his Father. "If it be your will, Father, spare
me this cup, not my will but yours". Mat 26:39
That's his death.
Three days later he rose from the dead, thru the power of the Father. This
showed man what man can expect if he dies in accordance with obedience to the
Father. And hence his ascension.
Keep on sinning, and it's katy bar the door. Heb 10:26-27.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
OB...@aol.com
-----
You did not answer the question . You swayed from the topic.Jesus was
a ransom for our sins and he died in our place .If he died in our
place he should have had forfeited his life forever. Had he not died
for our sins any person would end up in grave never to live again.
If you believe in literal hell you make the answer to the question
impossible.Like those who believe soul is immortal.If soul is immortal
Jesus had not died and not redeemed anyone. That is why those
religions that teach hell are not true religions as they deny Jesus
Christ.
Jesus was without a sin and did not deserve to die.
If you had a neighbor who raped 10 children and killed them in a cruel
way would it be ok if another neighbor offered his life for that
killer to keep him from death sentence ? Would it be just to do so ?
Many complications arise from that and it requires God alone to help
us in this and I am thankful to God Yahweh that He in His mercy helped
me in that .
It was by God's decision that sinful nature went to all mankind and
sinful nature caused all men to sin .
To balance that it was by God's decision that payment for sins was
possible to all people if they believe in Jesus Christ's redemptive
act.
In death there is no elapse of time felt ( not like in hell many
people believe ) .Jesus did not deserve to taste death ( for a moment
as there is no elapse of time in death ).
The fact he tasted death was already a redemption.
Moreover he had a right to continue his life in this evil world order
but he left this world forever and he will be back in the new world
order .He lost his previous life as that evil world order will not
exist any more in the future when Jesus returns second time.
We people were destined not to exist anymore for our sins ,but now
thanks to sacrifice by Jesus we can live longer .. forever.Jesus'
ransom was paid and now he is God's ownership ; he lives as God wants
him to live as God took occupancy in his body .It is like God is
personally living in the person of Jesus .
OB...@aol.com
rose in spirit as he forfeited his body as a sacrifice to God.Because
the principle in redemption is that thing sacrficed cannot be taken
back .
If you give a ransom to somebody the ransom is kept by the person to
whom the ransom was made.
But Jesus rose in the same body and how to reconcile that with the
principle of ransom made ?
gabriel
<OB...@aol.com> wrote:
: On Dec 5, 8:13?am, gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com>
: -----
: You did not answer the question . You swayed from the topic.Jesus was
: a ransom for our sins and he died in our place .If he died in our
: place he should have had forfeited his life forever.
Not only did I answer the question, I addressed your false claim
that He should have forfeited His life forever. Here it is again
so you can actually read it rather than delete it and repeat what
was already addressed:
: Had he not died
OB...@aol.com
---
Another problem with you is that you don't listen to Open Forum very
well if you do as you ignore Camping's explanations on the year
1994 .This issue of 1994 is being raised very often by listeners and
Camping answers .
Just listen to Open Forum. I don't agree with many things Harold
Camping teaches but I listen to Open Forum and even record some
parts .Right now is about 1.40 PM EST USA and the audiotape is running
with Harold Camping's speaking on Open Forum.
Put aside all those pastors ,priests of false christian
churches ,don't watch too much tv or commercial radio but listen to
what Harold Camping says on Open Forum. Read my posts and compare to
what he teaches and read literature from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Everything now should turn around the expectations that are for the
year 2011 AD.This is a focal point for those who love God's Word the
Bible.
curtjester1
> <OB...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:584300fa-ae92-4f2d...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> > again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
> > sinners .
> > I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
> > So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
> > the saved sinners ?
>
> Because he had no sin, only sinner will die in hell.
>
>
when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
punishment?
CJ
>
> > Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
> > my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
> > to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
> > went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
> > one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
> > people in false christian churches had not noticed .
>
> Don't believe one word that the Jeovah witness's say, there wrong about
> everything, Jesus was God in the flesh, the name Jesus means Jehovah is the
> Saviour, the son of God was only one of his names.Luke,1:35, John.1:14, and
> many other places.
>
>
Funny they think Christendom is wrong about everything.
>
> > We read in 1 Timothy 2.5 that was written after Jesus rose and went to
> > heaven that there is one mediator between God and men ;the man Jesus
> > Christ.
>
> We have to pray only to the Father, and always in the name of Jesus Christ
> in reognition of him.
>
>
Why isn't the holy spirit involved in 'praying to' if it's part of
being God?
>
> > We read that Jesus is the same all the time
> > ( yesterday,today,tomorrow ) -Hebrews 13.8 .
>
> > Harold Camping of the Family Radio Stattions who is declaring the year
> > 2011 AD as the year Jesus Christ will come back could not answer that
> > and he resorted to that we cannot understand God.He said Jesus is God,
> > implying he could not die ; but he claims also the opposite that God
> > died and we cannot understand that .He doesn't understand he is
> > talking contradictions and resorts to simple explanation God is a
> > mystery and we cannot understand God and we should not try to do it
> > and that is the technique he also uses when the Trinity issue comes
> > out.
>
> The trinity is easy to understand if you study, we are all
> trinity,1.Cor.15:44, we all have a natural body and a heavenly body and we
> all have a spirit, we were in our heavenly body first then we came in our
> eatlhly body and when we die we go back in our heavenly body, flesh and
> blood cannot go to heaven, therefore the body that the aposels saw after
> Jesus died was not the the flesh body of Jesus, it was the body of God, when
> God said let us make man [flesh] in our image he included himself.
>
>
How is it easy to understand when sons are referenced as angels in Job
38:7 and Jesus references himself as a Morning Star from the same
scripture? How is it easy when the scripture says that no man shall
see God and live? How is it easy when Jesus always says he has a God,
and that God is greater than he is? How is it easy when Jesus says he
can't do single thing under his own initiative? How is it easy when
it describes Jesus so eloquently as a created being and his
relationship to God in Proverbs chapter 8?
CJ
>
>
>
> > I think that using the doctrine of eternal hell we cannot explain the
> > redemptive death of Jesus and that could be another blow to most
> > christian churches who teach eternal hell.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
gabriel
<OB...@aol.com> wrote:
: On Dec 5, 8:13?am, gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: ---
: Another problem with you is that you don't listen to Open Forum very
: well if you do as you ignore Camping's explanations on the year
: 1994 .
Harold Camping: heretical allegorical interpretation of the Bible
Clarence D
"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f358ac8-2f8e-4e57...@s19g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 2:24 am, "Clarence D" <cdum...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> <OB...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:584300fa-ae92-4f2d...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> > again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
> > sinners .
> > I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
> > So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
> > the saved sinners ?
>
> Because he had no sin, only sinner will die in hell.
>
>
Jesus died and was in hell in Act 2. Why would a sinner die in hell
when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
punishment?
CJ
Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19. The
flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for eternity.
> > Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
> > my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
> > to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
> > went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
> > one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
> > people in false christian churches had not noticed .
>
> Don't believe one word that the Jeovah witness's say, there wrong about
> everything, Jesus was God in the flesh, the name Jesus means Jehovah is
> the
> Saviour, the son of God was only one of his names.Luke,1:35, John.1:14,
> and
> many other places.
>
>
Funny they think Christendom is wrong about everything.
Religion is wrong about lots of things, not Christendom.
>
> > We read in 1 Timothy 2.5 that was written after Jesus rose and went to
> > heaven that there is one mediator between God and men ;the man Jesus
> > Christ.
>
> We have to pray only to the Father, and always in the name of Jesus Christ
> in reognition of him.
>
>
Why isn't the holy spirit involved in 'praying to' if it's part of
being God?
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, we all have a spirit, its our taught,
some people can move objects with there spirit [taught] and we can only use
9% of our brain when we are in the flesh, when we go back to our heavenly
body we will be 100%, and Gods Spirit is even greater then that.
CJ
When we die we are angels [angels dont have wings], the morning star is
another name for the Saviour, lucifer adopted that name also, he wants
people to think he is the Saviour, and many will be desceived. No man shall
see The Holly Spirit [which is God also] and live. Jesus had part of the
spirit of God, he was created lower then angels to suffer death.Heb.2:9.
Because he had part of the Spirit of God. Salamon wrote proverbs and in
Chapter 8 he is not talking about Jesus, it says the sonS, thats us, we were
created then, thats why we only have 9% use of our brain, the past has been
erased, i can explain more if interested.
duke
>
>"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2f358ac8-2f8e-4e57...@s19g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
>On Dec 5, 2:24 am, "Clarence D" <cdum...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>> <OB...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:584300fa-ae92-4f2d...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
>> > again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
>> > sinners .
>> > I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
>> > So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
>> > the saved sinners ?
>>
>> Because he had no sin, only sinner will die in hell.
>Jesus died and was in hell in Act 2. Why would a sinner die in hell
>when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
>hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
>punishment?
>
>CJ
>
>Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19. The
>flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
>you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
>one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for eternity.
Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those that
died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
curtjester1
> "curtjester1" <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2f358ac8-2f8e-4e57...@s19g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 5, 2:24 am, "Clarence D" <cdum...@telusplanet.net> wrote:> <OB...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:584300fa-ae92-4f2d...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> > > again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
> > > sinners .
> > > I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
> > > So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
> > > the saved sinners ?
>
> > Because he had no sin, only sinner will die in hell.
>
> Jesus died and was in hell in Act 2. Why would a sinner die in hell
> when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
> hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
> punishment?
>
> CJ
>
> Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19. The
> flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
> you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
> one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for eternity.
>
perfect. Of course there are those that would disagree with you and
say he was risen bodily, but I do happen to agree with your scriptural
application that he was raised a Spirit. I don't agree that
resurrections have to be in spirit. Lazarus would be one resurrection
that was a body. It's a matter of destiny then, to where one is to be
resurrected to. People of faith in Hebrews had no hope of a heavenly
life or are considered anywhere to be heaven bound, therefore their
resurrection should and will be a bodily resurrection into the 1,000
year reign of Jesus Christ and his heavenly chosen to rule with him in
the 1,000 years. They should remain in spirit by all biblical rule
applications thus far.
> > > Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
> > > my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
> > > to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
> > > went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
> > > one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
> > > people in false christian churches had not noticed .
>
> > Don't believe one word that the Jeovah witness's say, there wrong about
> > everything, Jesus was God in the flesh, the name Jesus means Jehovah is
> > the
> > Saviour, the son of God was only one of his names.Luke,1:35, John.1:14,
> > and
> > many other places.
>
> Funny they think Christendom is wrong about everything.
>
> Religion is wrong about lots of things, not Christendom.
>
>
I commented quite a bit in the 'All Religions Dead Wrong' topic.
>
> > > We read in 1 Timothy 2.5 that was written after Jesus rose and went to
> > > heaven that there is one mediator between God and men ;the man Jesus
> > > Christ.
>
> > We have to pray only to the Father, and always in the name of Jesus Christ
> > in reognition of him.
>
> Why isn't the holy spirit involved in 'praying to' if it's part of
> being God?
>
> The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, we all have a spirit, its our taught,
> some people can move objects with there spirit [taught] and we can only use
> 9% of our brain when we are in the flesh, when we go back to our heavenly
> body we will be 100%, and Gods Spirit is even greater then that.
>
>
It's just not given in the model Lord's Prayer that it should be
prayed to. I have never seen it in anywhere to be prayed to, only
prayed for.
Jesus was written about in Heb. 1 which is a large quotation from
Psalms 45, which states he had a relationship with "his partners".
Those are fellow angels. Being a morning star or an angel means you
are an angel. Being the Bright and Morning Star means it's an angel
with significance that only applies to sinless holiness which would be
Jesus and couldn't apply to any other angel.
Proverbs 8 can only apply to Jesus and I posted the whole chapter in
the 'That Jesus According...' topic, and made comments. There's no
way it can apply to men or other angels when one reads it carefully.
CJ
>
>
>
> > > I think that using the doctrine of eternal hell we cannot explain the
> > > redemptive death of Jesus and that could be another blow to most
> > > christian churches who teach eternal hell.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
duke
wrote:
>Well we can't assume that Jesus was spiritually dead can we?
No, that would be in contrary with scripture. Heb 4:15.
> He was perfect.
No, other than never sinning, he was a normal man.
> Of course there are those that would disagree with you and
>say he was risen bodily, but I do happen to agree with your scriptural
>application that he was raised a Spirit.
Yet if he wasn't raised bodily as a man, what did he prove? Our own bodily
resurrection is prefigured in his resurrection, as is our ascension to heaven.
> I don't agree that
>resurrections have to be in spirit.
Good thing.
> Lazarus would be one resurrection
>that was a body.
Surprise.
>It's a matter of destiny then, to where one is to be
>resurrected to. People of faith in Hebrews had no hope of a heavenly
>life or are considered anywhere to be heaven bound, therefore their
>resurrection should and will be a bodily resurrection into the 1,000
>year reign of Jesus Christ and his heavenly chosen to rule with him in
>the 1,000 years. They should remain in spirit by all biblical rule
>applications thus far.
We're in the Kingdom now, even according to the protest_ants. Which means we're
in the "1000" years now.
v1_0
> If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
> sinners .
> I am believing in death for ever ,not eternal hell of torments .
> So , why did Jesus is living now in heaven instead of being dead for
> the saved sinners ?
Romans 5:12
Genesis 2:17, 3:17, 3:22.
Through Adam's sin, death came into the world. This means that
before that, there was no death. It is implied that had Adam not
sinned, he would not die. You can see that Adam's sin also affects
the rest of the world too - as it is changed so that man will "feed
his face by the sweat of his brow", which is in contrast to the easy
living he had up to that point. Romans implies this too by the use
of the word "world".
The point is that the original design was for man to be immortal.
Adam's choice - of disobedience - changed that. If you search
through the Bible you will find that it makes reference to: "soul of
(a) person", "body of (a) person", and "person". Clearly, a "person"
is defined (Bibically) as a soul and body combination. The body
dies, the soul is kept alive through God.
Romans 5:18
Now, Jesus comes to reverse that. By one act of supreme obedience and
sacrifice for others, he reverses the condition. Being both God and
man, he creates a bridge between man (us) and God - in his very
person. This is the ladder that Jacob had seen prefigured.
-V
Clarence D
> when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
> hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
> punishment?
>
> CJ
>
> Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
> The
> flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
> you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
> one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
> eternity.
>
Well we can't assume that Jesus was spiritually dead can we? He was
perfect. Of course there are those that would disagree with you and
say he was risen bodily, but I do happen to agree with your scriptural
application that he was raised a Spirit. I don't agree that
resurrections have to be in spirit. Lazarus would be one resurrection
that was a body. It's a matter of destiny then, to where one is to be
resurrected to. People of faith in Hebrews had no hope of a heavenly
life or are considered anywhere to be heaven bound, therefore their
resurrection should and will be a bodily resurrection into the 1,000
year reign of Jesus Christ and his heavenly chosen to rule with him in
the 1,000 years. They should remain in spirit by all biblical rule
applications thus far
Jesus was not spiritualy dead, and Lazarus did not rise to heaven in his
body, have you not read, flesh and blood will not enter Heaven.
Whe Jesus returns everyone will die in the blink of an eye, the thousand
year reign will not be in this flesh and blood body and anybody who did not
have a chance to learn about the good news will have there chance then, the
Jews were blinded by God so they will have there chance.
> > > Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
> > > my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
> > > to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
> > > went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
> > > one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
> > > people in false christian churches had not noticed .
>>
> > We have to pray only to the Father, and always in the name of Jesus
> > Christ
> > in reognition of him.
>
> Why isn't the holy spirit involved in 'praying to' if it's part of
> being God?
>
> The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, we all have a spirit, its our
> taught,
> some people can move objects with there spirit [taught] and we can only
> use
> 9% of our brain when we are in the flesh, when we go back to our heavenly
> body we will be 100%, and Gods Spirit is even greater then that.
>
>
It's just not given in the model Lord's Prayer that it should be
prayed to. I have never seen it in anywhere to be prayed to, only
prayed for.
Why would you want to pray for the Father? we talk to the Father for what
ever we want, always in the name of Jesus Christ.
Lucifer is a Hebrew word that means bright morning star, your not the only
one that has trouble identifying the real Saviour.
Proverbs 8 can only apply to Jesus and I posted the whole chapter in
the 'That Jesus According...' topic, and made comments. There's no
way it can apply to men or other angels when one reads it carefully.
Proverbs 8.:4 unto you men, men in hebrew is adam and adam means mankind.
God bless
Clarence D
>>Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
>>The
>>flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
>>you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
>>one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
>>eternity.
>
> Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those
> that
> died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
Purgatory does not exist, that was invented by the catolic church to
make money, million of people think they can buy there way to Heaven by
paying a prist to pray for there loved ones, it does not work. O nly one
mediater between God and men and thats Jesus Christ.
Everybody goes to heaven when they die, some are locked up for judgment
day. God bless
duke
>>>
>>>Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
>>>The
>>>flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
>>>you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
>>>one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
>>>eternity.
>>
>> Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those
>> that
>> died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
>
> Purgatory does not exist
Gosh, and what rock told you that?
>that was invented by the catolic church to
>make money
It's in scripture.
>, million of people think they can buy there way to Heaven by
>paying a prist to pray for there loved ones, it does not work.
How do you know it doesn't work? Heeheheeheehe
> Only one >mediater between God and men and thats Jesus Christ.
Now you understand why no priest can get one out of purgatory jail
> Everybody goes to heaven when they die, some are locked up for judgment
>day. God bless
But they are judged at the moment they die.
duke
>> Jesus died and was in hell in Act 2. Why would a sinner die in hell
>> when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
>> hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
>> punishment?
>>
>> CJ
>>
>> Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
>> The
>> flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
>> you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
>> one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
>> eternity.
>>
>Well we can't assume that Jesus was spiritually dead can we? He was
>perfect.
?? then why does Heb 4:15 say that he was fully man in every way except sin.
curtjester1
creatures. That's why though there is a "new heaven" and a "new
earth". One would need a different type of resurrection to both. The
1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be shown in Rev. 22 where
"the nations will be cured, by the trees of life", and "the curse will
be no more." People will live on past the Adamic curse from the
Garden, and life will be eternal on earth just as it would have been
if he didn't sin and ate from the correct tree (of life).
>
>
>
> > > > Jehovah's Witnesses had found a very good answer to that question in
> > > > my view as they believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came
> > > > to the earth to become a man. So ,after he died forever as human Jesus
> > > > went back to heaven and is again Michael the Archangel. This could be
> > > > one of the best strength of Jehovah's Witness beliefs which many
> > > > people in false christian churches had not noticed .
>
> > > We have to pray only to the Father, and always in the name of Jesus
> > > Christ
> > > in reognition of him.
>
> > Why isn't the holy spirit involved in 'praying to' if it's part of
> > being God?
>
> > The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, we all have a spirit, its our
> > taught,
> > some people can move objects with there spirit [taught] and we can only
> > use
> > 9% of our brain when we are in the flesh, when we go back to our heavenly
> > body we will be 100%, and Gods Spirit is even greater then that.
>
> It's just not given in the model Lord's Prayer that it should be
> prayed to. I have never seen it in anywhere to be prayed to, only
> prayed for.
>
> Why would you want to pray for the Father? we talk to the Father for what
> ever we want, always in the name of Jesus Christ.
>
>
I was speaking about praying for holy spirit and not to holy spirit,
not the Father which is obviously who one would pray to, and (use HIS
name (Jehovah) because it is HALLOWED).
but Jesus is THE Bright and Morning Star of Rev. 22:16. So whatever
morning star you are attempting to tie in, a morning star is an Angel,
which is depicted as sons of God, just as Jesus is THE Son of God, an
angel.
> Proverbs 8 can only apply to Jesus and I posted the whole chapter in
> the 'That Jesus According...' topic, and made comments. There's no
> way it can apply to men or other angels when one reads it carefully.
>
> Proverbs 8.:4 unto you men, men in hebrew is adam and adam means mankind.
> God bless
>
The majority of Proberbs 8 is applied to Jesus by a wide variety of
people. That would be the essence of making Proverbs 8 my focal
point, and showing the relationship between God and Jesus in the
chapter. I find it impossible that he would be "brought forth", "set
up", become "daily his delight", and not have a distinct creation for
that. When trinitarians try to mesh that into eternalness, it shows
they are bending plain scriptures to suit their theory.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/pro008.htm
CJ
Pastor Dave
<curtj...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
That's a claim, not proof.
> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be shown in Rev. 22
Revelation says no such thing.
And don't bother with the typical verses, as if I,
a pastor, has never read them. You Futurists
need to stop quoting passages as if whatever
you believe is what they say.
> where
>"the nations will be cured, by the trees of life",
Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
self-contradictory their doctrine is.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called.
Parish *~
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:q1hnh5lvo8psc125k...@4ax.com...
>
> Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those
> that
> died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
Where is purgatory mentioned in the bible?
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
Parish *~
"Clarence D" <cdu...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:kElTm.55282$Db2.29018@edtnps83...
>>>
>>>Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
>>>The
>>>flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire that
>>>you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will last
>>>one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
>>>eternity.
>>
>> Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those
>> that
>> died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
>
> Purgatory does not exist, that was invented by the catolic church to
> make money, million of people think they can buy there way to Heaven by
> paying a prist to pray for there loved ones, it does not work. O nly one
> mediater between God and men and thats Jesus Christ.
> Everybody goes to heaven when they die, some are locked up for judgment
> day. God bless
The RCC invented a lot of things to make money over the years. The early
Pope's even had thousands of innocent people killed because they were seen
as threats to their money generating schemes. There's no purgatory mentioned
in the bible.
--
Parish *~
>
> But they are judged at the moment they die.
>
Oh? Has the RCC done away with the resurrection?
Parish *~
> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:31:41 GMT, "Clarence D" <cdu...@telusplanet.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> Jesus died and was in hell in Act 2. Why would a sinner die in hell
>>> when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
>>> hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
>>> punishment?
>>>
>>> CJ
>>>
>>> Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
>>> The
>>> flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire
>>> that
>>> you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will
>>> last
>>> one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
>>> eternity.
>>>
>>Well we can't assume that Jesus was spiritually dead can we? He was
>>perfect.
>
> ?? then why does Heb 4:15 say that he was fully man in every way except
> sin.
Sin is a meaningless concept. What one religion sees as sin another does
not.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making money."
* * * * * * * *
Parish *~
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:asgth5hcd8d11512p...@4ax.com...
>>creatures. That's why though there is a "new heaven" and a "new
>>earth". One would need a different type of resurrection to both.
>
> That's a claim, not proof.
It's all just claims with no proof of any of it.
>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be shown in Rev. 22
>
> Revelation says no such thing.
That's a JW claim.
>
>> where
>>"the nations will be cured, by the trees of life",
>
> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
What's with all this "futurists" BS on these groups lately? Do you consider
yourselves the "pastists?"
Parish *~
"gabriel" <gabriel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k9lkh5hts7kqn5gae...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:32:52 -0800 (PST), "OB...@aol.com"
> <OB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> : If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
> : again ?
>
> It was already prophesied that He would rise from death on the
> third day. He rose again defeating death, proving He was God. If
> He did not rise again, then He would not have defeated death.
Are you claiming he fathered HIMSELF with his own mother?
Parish *~
<OB...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ff5a332a-1f39-41f6...@19g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 8:13�am, gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
---
Another problem with you is that you don't listen to Open Forum very
well if you do as you ignore Camping's explanations on the year
1994 .This issue of 1994 is being raised very often by listeners and
Camping answers .
:: Camping has done nothing but make false predictions of years. Why should
anyone listen to his BS?
Just listen to Open Forum. I don't agree with many things Harold
Camping teaches but I listen to Open Forum and even record some
parts .Right now is about 1.40 PM EST USA and the audiotape is running
with Harold Camping's speaking on Open Forum.
:: You're driving yourself insane with his tapes just like Manson did with
the Helter Skelter record.
Put aside all those pastors ,priests of false christian
churches ,don't watch too much tv or commercial radio but listen to
what Harold Camping says on Open Forum. Read my posts and compare to
what he teaches and read literature from Jehovah's Witnesses.
:: God will punish you for leading people astray.
Everything now should turn around the expectations that are for the
year 2011 AD.This is a focal point for those who love God's Word the
Bible.
Parish *~
> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:32:52 -0800 (PST), "OB...@aol.com" <OB...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
>>again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
>>sinners .
>
> That's an easy one. He didn't die in the *place* of others. His death
> was one
> of example of total obedience to his Father. "If it be your will, Father,
> spare
> me this cup, not my will but yours". Mat 26:39
What? You believers just claimed Jesus was God! That he fathered himself
with his own mother!!!!!!!!!
Pastor Dave
<Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
> "Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:49:56 -0800 (PST),
>> curtjester1 spake thusly:
>>
>>> The people who reign with Christ will have been
>>> risen and be spirit creatures. That's why though
>>> there is a "new heaven" and a "new earth". One
>>> would need a different type of resurrection to both.
>>
>> That's a claim, not proof.
>
> It's all just claims with no proof of any of it.
Then you shouldn't say it's what the Bible says.
Rather, it is speculation that you are parroting
from someone else.
>>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...
>>> as can be shown in Rev. 22
>>
>> Revelation says no such thing.
>
> That's a JW claim.
You mean that there will be a new earth?
It's more than a JW claim. It's what almost
all Futurists claim.
>>> where "the nations will be cured, by the trees of life",
>>
>> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
>> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
>> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
>> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
>> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>
> What's with all this "futurists" BS on these groups lately?
> Do you consider yourselves the "pastists"?
Futurism is a doctrine that covers most of the doctrines
that are out there. Futurists believe that the prophecies
of the Bible have yet to be fulfilled. The problem is,
that their doctrines, when examined, always end up
being hypocritical to what they stand up in church
and say "Amen!" to and will always end up being
self-contradictory.
The problem is, that Futurists never admit this,
even when it is proved beyond any doubt that
something in their doctrine is self-contradictory.
To them, it is their doctrine that is most important,
not Scripture and for a Futurist, when you take
away their "It's all about me, now, today and
it's all about the physical being the final state!"
doctrine, by showing them how it does not
line up with the passages they quote, which
always end up being out of context snippets,
they attack and refuse to have the integrity
to admit to something that they were just shown.
When pressed into a corner, the Futurist will always
end up admitting that for them, if the Bible is not
all about them and their generation, then it is just
a useless waste of paper and ink. I.e., the question:
"If the Bible's not all about us today, then what
good is it?" always comes out.
Of course, when told this up front, they will always
deny that they would do that. :)
As I said, for the Futurist, it is the doctrine first
and if the Bible doesn't say what they claim,
they prefer to force fit the Bible into their doctrine,
rather than abandon even part of their doctrine
and will make new stuff up on the fly and pretend
they always believed it and will never admit that
what they said in just their last post was wrong.
It is vanity, not Biblical research. And when they
quote the Bible in response to something, they
actually think that just quoting the verse means
that they proved their point and that it says
whatever they have going on in their head. :)
I'm sorry, but that's the way it always is when
dealing with Futurists. And I will remain quite
sure that you will be the same way, being all
absorbed into Harold Camping's preaching.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate to govern any other." - John Adams
Pastor Dave
<Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
> Another problem with you is that you don't listen
> to Open Forum very well if you do as you ignore
> Camping's explanations on the year 1994. This
> issue of 1994 is being raised very often by listeners
> and Camping answers .
That's because he was wrong, as he always is
about the supposed "end times".
>> Camping has done nothing but make false
>> predictions of years. Why should anyone
>> listen to his BS?
>
> Just listen to Open Forum.
Saying., "just listen to it", does not answer
the question of WHY one should do so,
which was his question.
> I don't agree with many things Harold Camping
> teaches but I listen to Open Forum and even
> record some parts. Right now is about 1.40 PM
> EST USA and the audiotape is running with
> Harold Camping's speaking on Open Forum.
And that proves that you are so absorbed into him,
that you can't see anything else. And frankly, I do
believe that your "I don't agree with many things
that HC teaches" is just your way of trying to avoid
having to answer to why you listen to a man who
is obviously a false teacher, when he makes such
claims as he does.
>> You're driving yourself insane with his tapes
>> just like Manson did with the Helter Skelter
>> record.
>
> Put aside all those pastors ,priests of false christian
> churches, don't watch too much tv or commercial
> radio but listen to what Harold Camping says on
> Open Forum. Read my posts and compare to what
> he teaches and read literature from Jehovah's Witnesses.
In other words, don't listen to Christian preachers.
Just listen to Harold Camping preaching about
Christian things, right?
Do you understand how hypocritical that sounds?!
And do you understand how self-contradictory it is
to claim, like Harold, that we should not listen to
preachers, which means that you're preaching
right in this group that we shouldn't listen to
preaching?
So now tell me, how is Harold's preaching on the radio
any different than any preacher preaching on the radio,
or in a church, except that Harold says; "Listen to me
and not to them!" ???
It's total self-contradictory hypocrisy to tell people...
"Tune in to Family Radio and listen to me preach,
but make sure to stay away from preachers!"
...which is basically what he's saying and what you now
are also saying, which makes you just as big a hypocrite
as he is!
Furthermore, he also preaches in churches! I have
heard him myself on the radio, broadcasting from
A CHURCH, where he was PREACHING to the crowd
IN THAT CHURCH!
So Harold is nothing but a lying hypocrite and you are
nothing more than a drone for him!
>> God will punish you for leading people astray.
>
> Everything now should turn around the expectations
> that are for the year 2011 AD. This is a focal point
> for those who love God's Word the Bible.
Another ridiculous claim! That's how you Futurists are!
You try to manipulate people into doing what you want,
or making them think they'll go to Hell if they don't,
by telling them that if they love God and His word,
that they'll listen and do what they're told to, which
is the same as saying that if they don't, then they're
bound for Hell!
And the sad part is, that since Futurists in general
only know how to parrot what others say and have
no real clue what the Bible actually says, they tend
to live in fear of anything some preacher like Harold
says to them! But it's nothing more than another
attempt to be the big man on the prophecy campus
and to fear people into following him!
And you, listening to his tapes all the time and
knowing nothing except what he tells you to know,
blindly follow this lying hypocrite! And when the
supposed "last day" comes and goes, will we see
either Harold, or you actually admitting you were
wrong? Nope! Rather, what we'll see, is you
making excuses for him, parroting whatever
excuse he tries to come up with and then we'll
have another date presented to us and be told
again that it's "what the Bible says"! Garbage!
To you Futurists, the Bible is just a game! All you
people are interested in, is how to make it all about
you and your time and being the "prophecy expert",
when in reality, you're just parroting what someone
else says and listening to out of context snippets
from the Bible, that are about something else
entirely, but you wouldn't know that, because
the truth is, you don't really know what the Bible
actually says, because you don't read it, except
for the snippets they point at and are, as I said,
out of context and only appear to say what
they're claiming they do!
But hey, you go ahead and you follow and worship
Harold Camping if you want and who cares what
Jesus actually said, right? After all, Harold said
not to listen to preachers and Jesus was a preacher
and Uh Oh!!!... the Apostles were preachers who
preached at churches, so they can't be trusted
at all, right?! Of course, that means we have
no Bible for Harold to base his claims on, but
who cares about that? He can just write his own
and I'm sure people like you will be more than
happy to toss aside the real Bible and buy his!
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"The important thing is this: To be able at any moment
to sacrifice what we are for what we could become."
- Charles DuBois
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:npish59vmq8g4p6nt...@4ax.com...
>>
>> But they are judged at the moment they die.
> Oh? Has the RCC done away with the resurrection?
That's not for those going to hell.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:q1hnh5lvo8psc125k...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those
>> that
>> died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
>
>Where is purgatory mentioned in the bible?
Where it talks about only the pure of heart will see God.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:pvish512r4tf295lf...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:31:41 GMT, "Clarence D" <cdu...@telusplanet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Jesus died and was in hell in Act 2. Why would a sinner die in hell
>>>> when he would die before getting there? How could a sinner die in
>>>> hell if one believes (falsely) that hell (fire) is an eternal
>>>> punishment?
>>>>
>>>> CJ
>>>>
>>>> Hell in Act.2 is a prison for the spirtually dead, read 1.Peter.3:18-19.
>>>> The
>>>> flesh body dies, but then you go in your heavenly body.The hell fire
>>>> that
>>>> you mention will come only after judgment day, and judgment day will
>>>> last
>>>> one thousand years, then your heavenly body will be destroyed for
>>>> eternity.
>>>>
>>>Well we can't assume that Jesus was spiritually dead can we? He was
>>>perfect.
>>
>> ?? then why does Heb 4:15 say that he was fully man in every way except
>> sin.
>
>Sin is a meaningless concept. What one religion sees as sin another does
>not.
There's only one God.
duke
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:ldqkh51cji3vccqaf...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:32:52 -0800 (PST), "OB...@aol.com" <OB...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
>>>again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
>>>sinners .
>>
>> That's an easy one. He didn't die in the *place* of others. His death
>> was one
>> of example of total obedience to his Father. "If it be your will, Father,
>> spare
>> me this cup, not my will but yours". Mat 26:39
>
>What? You believers just claimed Jesus was God! That he fathered himself
>with his own mother!!!!!!!!!
1+1+1=1.
curtjester1
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:49:56 -0800 (PST), curtjester1
and new earth as well, with all the physicalities known for earth
living. Of course the animals in Isaiah 11 would be quite useful for
the earth. Of course if Adam never sinned and the edict was carried
out about multiplying and filling the earth, there would be no
necessity for any heavenly resurrection or a Jesus Christ being
sent.
> > The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be shown in Rev. 22
>
> Revelation says no such thing.
>
> And don't bother with the typical verses, as if I,
> a pastor, has never read them. You Futurists
> need to stop quoting passages as if whatever
> you believe is what they say.
>
> > where
> >"the nations will be cured, by the trees of life",
>
> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>
Because nations are obviously 'uncured' because of their ways of life
and sinful tendencies. Also the 'curse' "will be no more". The curse
was given from the earth in the earthly paradise. It would be so
fitting for it to be undone in the same exact way and environment.
Also, the futurists as you would call them from long ago, the people
Pre-Christ had only a kingdom being restored in an unheavenly sense.
They would have no right either to be under the sacrifice and
redemption of Christ as they never had their chance. They will when
they are resurrected into the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, and
under the power of those who will rule with Christ over that "new
earth." Rulers need someone to rule over don't they? (Rev. 1: 5,6;
Rev 20) Any reasonable person would concur. And the "incorruptible",
those raised to heaven and granted no test to be given or having any
sinful tendencies ever to be had or aroused, will need no physical
trees to do anything for them for any type of curing. They will just
rule.
CJ
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called.- Hide quoted text -
Parish *~
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 06:50:53 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:npish59vmq8g4p6nt...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> But they are judged at the moment they die.
>
>> Oh? Has the RCC done away with the resurrection?
>
> That's not for those going to hell.
Before they're judged they must be resurrected.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making money."
* * * * * * * *
Pastor Dave
<curtj...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
>On Dec 8, 4:24�pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:49:56 -0800 (PST), curtjester1
>> <curtjest...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
>>
>>> The people who reign with Christ will have been risen
>>> and be spirit creatures. �That's why though there is a
>>> "new heaven" and a "new earth". �One would need
>>> a different type of resurrection to both.
>>
>> That's a claim, not proof.
>
> The Bible corroborates throughout. Isaiah 65 speaks
> of a new heavens and new earth as well, with all the
> physicalities known for earth living.
...just as they were on the old earth.
It;s not speaking of a physical "new heavens and earth"
and your belief comes straight from ignorance of the
symbolism used by the Jews and found in the Scriptures.
And if you want to take it all physically, then you need
to take it all physically and you don't get to make excuses
for the fact that it says death will also be present.
That blows away your belief system and makes the Bible
contradict itself, since Revelation says "no more death".
Now go ahead and make up some excuses. :)
>>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be
>>> shown in Rev. 22
>>
>> Revelation says no such thing.
>>
>> And don't bother with the typical verses, as if I,
>> a pastor, has never read them. �You Futurists
>> need to stop quoting passages as if whatever
>> you believe is what they say.
>>
>>
>>> where "the nations will be cured,
>>> by the trees of life",
>>
>> Really? �So why would "the nations" need curing,
>> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
>> bodies??? �That's the question that Futurists
>> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
>> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>
> Because nations are obviously 'uncured' because
> of their ways of life and sinful tendencies.
Right. And you don't get that your doctrine
is self-contradictory on its face?
Here you are, with your "new heaven and earth"
that's supposed to be all about peace and only
the saved present, living in their "resurrected,
super, live forever bodies" and yet, you've got
"uncured people, who are uncured because of
their sinful tendencies".
And of course, your doctrine tells you that God
and Jesus come here to live forever in a new
Jerusalem and this means that they'll be trapped
in this city, because obviously, God cannot be
around sin. So you've got God and Jesus moving
out of Heaven, which was perfect, into a city in
which they cannot leave, or God will have to live
in sinful places, with sinners, because you said
that's what they are and so, what do we have?
We have a world full of sin again, with sick people
who are uncured, even though your doctrine would
have claimed that the "new earth" would be perfect,
which means there';s no need of cures, since it's
supposed to be only the saved in their super new
resurrected bodies and we have disease, sin
and God trapped in a city, which means it was
all FOR NOTHING, which makes God an idiot
for spending all of that time, just to end up
worse off than He was and it all was!
Yea, that's some doctrine you've got there! :)
Futurists never think their doctrine through!
And that's because they don't care! All they
want to hear is how it's all about them and
the physical, while they hypocritically claim
that they're not focusing on the physical,
but the spiritual!
And even when they see that it cannot possibly
work out physically the way they claim, THEY
STILL DON'T CARE!!! It's all about them and
they will pretend that they didn't just see what
they just saw and if they can't have that, then
to them, the Bible is just a useless waste of
paper and ink!
And what they don't get, is that if their doctrine
were true, then that's what the Bible would be
anyway, since it would be a self-contradictory
pile of lies, as I just proved to you!
Please! Sell your snake oil to some other Futurist
who's just as interested in themselves, as you are
in your vain self, sir! <chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Grace isn't a little prayer you chant before receiving
a meal. It's a way to live." - Jackie Windspear
Parish *~
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 06:46:34 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:q1hnh5lvo8psc125k...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Actually it's purgatory. For the damned go straight to hell, and those
>>> that
>>> died in the favor of God before Christ were raised to life. Mat 27:52
>>
>>Where is purgatory mentioned in the bible?
>
> Where it talks about only the pure of heart will see God.
Sorry, no purgatory mentioned.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making money."
* * * * * * * *
Parish *~
And many religions...........
Parish *~
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:00:28 -0600, "Parish *~"
> <Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>
>
>> "Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:49:56 -0800 (PST),
>>> curtjester1 spake thusly:
>>>
>>>> The people who reign with Christ will have been
>>>> risen and be spirit creatures. That's why though
>>>> there is a "new heaven" and a "new earth". One
>>>> would need a different type of resurrection to both.
>>>
>>> That's a claim, not proof.
>>
>> It's all just claims with no proof of any of it.
>
> Then you shouldn't say it's what the Bible says.
> Rather, it is speculation that you are parroting
> from someone else.
Nope, I'm not and never was a JW.
>
>
>>>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...
>>>> as can be shown in Rev. 22
>>>
>>> Revelation says no such thing.
>>
>> That's a JW claim.
>
> You mean that there will be a new earth?
> It's more than a JW claim. It's what almost
> all Futurists claim.
As conpared to all pastists?
>
>
>>>> where "the nations will be cured, by the trees of life",
>>>
>>> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
>>> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
>>> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
>>> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
>>> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>>
>> What's with all this "futurists" BS on these groups lately?
>> Do you consider yourselves the "pastists"?
>
> Futurism is a doctrine that covers most of the doctrines
> that are out there. Futurists believe that the prophecies
> of the Bible have yet to be fulfilled.
And how do you know they aren't?
The problem is,
> that their doctrines, when examined, always end up
> being hypocritical to what they stand up in church
> and say "Amen!" to and will always end up being
> self-contradictory.
Most religions themselves are self-contradictory. Just look at what the
believers post on these groups. They can't even agree on major points no
less minor ones.
>
> The problem is, that Futurists never admit this,
> even when it is proved beyond any doubt that
> something in their doctrine is self-contradictory.
> To them, it is their doctrine that is most important,
> not Scripture and for a Futurist, when you take
> away their "It's all about me, now, today and
> it's all about the physical being the final state!"
> doctrine, by showing them how it does not
> line up with the passages they quote, which
> always end up being out of context snippets,
> they attack and refuse to have the integrity
> to admit to something that they were just shown.
And yet they make the same claims about people like you, pastists!
>
> When pressed into a corner, the Futurist will always
> end up admitting that for them, if the Bible is not
> all about them and their generation, then it is just
> a useless waste of paper and ink. I.e., the question:
> "If the Bible's not all about us today, then what
> good is it?" always comes out.
You don't find that a legitimate question? What happened 2000+ yrs ago in
some remote part of the globe has no effect on us as a species, today.
>
> Of course, when told this up front, they will always
> deny that they would do that. :)
>
> As I said, for the Futurist, it is the doctrine first
> and if the Bible doesn't say what they claim,
> they prefer to force fit the Bible into their doctrine,
> rather than abandon even part of their doctrine
> and will make new stuff up on the fly and pretend
> they always believed it and will never admit that
> what they said in just their last post was wrong.
They say the same about you pastists...... :-\
>
> It is vanity, not Biblical research. And when they
> quote the Bible in response to something, they
> actually think that just quoting the verse means
> that they proved their point and that it says
> whatever they have going on in their head. :)
>
> I'm sorry, but that's the way it always is when
> dealing with Futurists. And I will remain quite
> sure that you will be the same way, being all
> absorbed into Harold Camping's preaching.
Huh? I'm not OBVES. Camping in my book is another money making conman who
has predicted the end of the world several times. He's anything but a real
preacher or man of God.
Parish *~
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:06:37 -0600, "Parish *~"
> <Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>
>
>> Another problem with you is that you don't listen
>> to Open Forum very well if you do as you ignore
>> Camping's explanations on the year 1994. This
>> issue of 1994 is being raised very often by listeners
>> and Camping answers .
>
> That's because he was wrong, as he always is
> about the supposed "end times".
Why did you remove OBVES header? It's his quotes/words, *not mine.* Camping
is a crooked electronic preacher who found a way to get the cash rolling
into his bank accounts.
Pastor Dave
<Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:janvh59tptprciemf...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:06:37 -0600, "Parish *~"
>> <Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>>
>>
>>> Another problem with you is that you don't listen
>>> to Open Forum very well if you do as you ignore
>>> Camping's explanations on the year 1994. This
>>> issue of 1994 is being raised very often by listeners
>>> and Camping answers .
>>
>> That's because he was wrong, as he always is
>> about the supposed "end times".
>
>Why did you remove OBVES header?
When someone hits "Reply" and your name appears
at the top, then that means that it is you who wrote
the last message and that is what happened and is
what does happen every time I look at and reply to
one of your messages, which is why I keep thinking
that it's you who wrote the messages.
So the real question is, why is your setup making it
turn out that way?
I now know however, that you are not a believer
and are just here to antagonize believers, so I will
now kill file you, as I don't waste my time with
such nonsense in Biblical news groups.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"The face is the mirror of the mind and eyes without speaking
confess the secrets of the heart." -Saint Jerome
curtjester1
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:49:22 -0800 (PST), curtjester1
>
> >On Dec 8, 4:24 pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> >> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:49:56 -0800 (PST), curtjester1
> >> <curtjest...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
>
> >>> The people who reign with Christ will have been risen
> >>> and be spirit creatures. That's why though there is a
> >>> "new heaven" and a "new earth". One would need
> >>> a different type of resurrection to both.
>
> >> That's a claim, not proof.
>
> > The Bible corroborates throughout. Isaiah 65 speaks
> > of a new heavens and new earth as well, with all the
> > physicalities known for earth living.
>
> ...just as they were on the old earth.
>
> It;s not speaking of a physical "new heavens and earth"
> and your belief comes straight from ignorance of the
> symbolism used by the Jews and found in the Scriptures.
>
merely 'ignorant' in not having any heavenly hope and only having the
kingdom restored for the earth? You might want to look up Daniel 2:
35,44-45 about their thoughts on government destroying the governents
here on earth where they would reside. Of course that's not really
new since it came from Gen. 3:15 and the first prophecy of the Bible
(for the future).
> And if you want to take it all physically, then you need
> to take it all physically and you don't get to make excuses
> for the fact that it says death will also be present.
>
Of course death will be present, when their is the curse of death
involved from the Garden. It's called Adamic Death. When that is no
more, when "the curse is no more" in Rev. 22, then death will be "no
more".
> That blows away your belief system and makes the Bible
> contradict itself, since Revelation says "no more death".
>
Huh?
> Now go ahead and make up some excuses. :)
>
>
Don't have to. It was God's will to have an earthly Paradise. Read
about Adam.
Adam and Eve: The Garden of Eden
Adam and Eve were the first gardeners. They lived in the Garden of
Eden, a perfect place with no thorns or weeds, and where plants
produced their fruit easily. We find in Genesis 2:15-20 that God told
Adam to cultivate the garden, keep the garden, name the animals, and
eat of the garden's fruit, except from the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil.
>
>
>
> >>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be
> >>> shown in Rev. 22
>
> >> Revelation says no such thing.
>
> >> And don't bother with the typical verses, as if I,
> >> a pastor, has never read them. You Futurists
> >> need to stop quoting passages as if whatever
> >> you believe is what they say.
>
> >>> where "the nations will be cured,
> >>> by the trees of life",
>
> >> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
> >> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
> >> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
> >> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
> >> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>
> > Because nations are obviously 'uncured' because
> > of their ways of life and sinful tendencies.
>
> Right. And you don't get that your doctrine
> is self-contradictory on its face?
>
How could one? Since your doctrine is for people that are deemed save-
worthy going to heaven, and how will they be rulers if they have no
one to rule over? That is your dilemma and your contradiction.
> Here you are, with your "new heaven and earth"
> that's supposed to be all about peace and only
> the saved present, living in their "resurrected,
> super, live forever bodies" and yet, you've got
> "uncured people, who are uncured because of
> their sinful tendencies".
>
Absolutely. That is why they have tests. Adam wasn't in the forever
status until he obeyed by not eating of the forbidden tree and eating
from the tree of life. Nobody on earth will be saved until they get
to the point of being ready to pass the test at the end of the 1,000
year reign of Jesus Christ. Those who pass will be "cured", thus "the
curse will be no more." It's so plain, simple, and logical.
Christendom takes the purpose of God and makes all sorts of scenarios
and theories that sound metaphysical, and yet when one reads the
Scriptures, they are just untrue!!
> And of course, your doctrine tells you that God
> and Jesus come here to live forever in a new
> Jerusalem and this means that they'll be trapped
> in this city, because obviously, God cannot be
> around sin. So you've got God and Jesus moving
> out of Heaven, which was perfect, into a city in
> which they cannot leave, or God will have to live
> in sinful places, with sinners, because you said
> that's what they are and so, what do we have?
>
We have what was in the Garden. God or Jesus didn't or wouldn't have
to leave anywhere to get the message across. Communication however
it's done can be just done the same way as was the communication that
was in force in The Garden. The New Jerusalem will be out of heaven,
and will continue to be perfect with Jesus and the "incorruptible"
ones that are to rule with him over the earth to prepare and mold the
kingdom into God's approval. (I Cor. 15: 24-28)
> We have a world full of sin again, with sick people
> who are uncured, even though your doctrine would
> have claimed that the "new earth" would be perfect,
> which means there';s no need of cures, since it's
> supposed to be only the saved in their super new
> resurrected bodies and we have disease, sin
> and God trapped in a city, which means it was
> all FOR NOTHING, which makes God an idiot
> for spending all of that time, just to end up
> worse off than He was and it all was!
>
People can be given in time or immediately, however God perfoms,
bodies that will never die, and a mind that will be without the
effects of sin. That is what Adam had. Why doesn't one think that
could be achieved again? There is nothing relevant about being worse
off, as it's just God's will of true justice unfolding as he wanted
and deemed it. He wants a Paradise earth where all will obey him,
willingly. The willingly part is part of the nature of free will,
which Adam and Eve had as well as the spirit creatures God created,
Jesus being included. That's why Jesus' ransom is so wonderful and
has meaning because he was one with free will that conquered what Adam
wouldn't, or in the case of Satan's allegation, couldn't or
wouldn't. God coming down and trying to be a ransom would be
meaningless since He is already always perfect and He is the one
creating and making people with free will as part of his Creation.
Many like your accusation think, why couldn't God have just made
another Adam, or made the test come sooner? It's obvious that for a
true test and justice to come about it would take time for all
creation to decide and for the prophecies to unfold for the Messiah
and all the issues involved with that.
> Yea, that's some doctrine you've got there! :)
>
It's not mine! It's God's and Jesus Christ approves and went along
with it!
> Futurists never think their doctrine through!
> And that's because they don't care! All they
> want to hear is how it's all about them and
> the physical, while they hypocritically claim
> that they're not focusing on the physical,
> but the spiritual!
>
It's hypocritical not to look to the future. That's what the men of
faith and the prophets did, and yet they didn't receive the reward
(yet). You are the ones focusing on YOURSELVES!!! You deem
yourselves spiritural saved!! How unscriptural and how self-
elevating!! Of course that's what the thrust of Christendom is,
getting people under their "hired hands" and telling them of this
false insurance policy that people will swallow, because they have 'it
made' and 'can live the way they want.'
> And even when they see that it cannot possibly
> work out physically the way they claim, THEY
> STILL DON'T CARE!!! It's all about them and
> they will pretend that they didn't just see what
> they just saw and if they can't have that, then
> to them, the Bible is just a useless waste of
> paper and ink!
>
Not for the ones that see God's original purpose unfolding before
their very eyes!
> And what they don't get, is that if their doctrine
> were true, then that's what the Bible would be
> anyway, since it would be a self-contradictory
> pile of lies, as I just proved to you!
>
Of course, oh great 'magician'. You have attempted to disuade by
showing that their is no physical earth coming in the form of God's
Kingdom. But we know as well as the men of old, that "the government
will be on his shoulder" (Isaiah 9:6). That's Jesus Christ's
government, and not some floating government in the sky that has no
one to rule over.
> Please! Sell your snake oil to some other Futurist
> who's just as interested in themselves, as you are
> in your vain self, sir! <chuckle>
>
All people of faith of old, and Christians are futurists!! How can
they be not???!! They live in the past, present, and future always.
They depend on the prophecies of old that will come true in the
future. God so many times ensures those prophecies by saying by
inspiration that "they will come true", and that what was spoken will
never be denied!
CJ
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> "Grace isn't a little prayer you chant before receiving
> a meal. It's a way to live." - Jackie Windspear- Hide quoted text -
Rob
"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4f467909-e41f-4dbf...@31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
CJ
THE BIBLE IS NOT A PROVEN SOURCE OF TRUTH. Each person who reads it comes up
with his own interpretations. Since it's a book of fiction, your quoting
from it as if your statement followed by a certain verse is meaningless. I
don't care HOW much you think it's true, it is NOT. I can't wait until
Camping dies and the year 2013 comes along. Then maybe some of you lunatics
will get real jobs and will stop mentally masturbating your lives away.
Parish *~
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:17:11 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:ldqkh51cji3vccqaf...@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:32:52 -0800 (PST), "OB...@aol.com" <OB...@aol.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
>>>>again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
>>>>sinners .
>>>
>>> That's an easy one. He didn't die in the *place* of others. His death
>>> was one
>>> of example of total obedience to his Father. "If it be your will,
>>> Father,
>>> spare
>>> me this cup, not my will but yours". Mat 26:39
>>
>>What? You believers just claimed Jesus was God! That he fathered himself
>>with his own mother!!!!!!!!!
>
> 1+1+1=1.
Yep! You're as much as saying God fathered himself with his own
mother...........
>
> The Dukester, American-American
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making quick easy money."
duke
...........depending on what teachings each protest_ant faith rejects.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:5i60i5p41454jlkbo...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:17:11 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>news:ldqkh51cji3vccqaf...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:32:52 -0800 (PST), "OB...@aol.com" <OB...@aol.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>If Jesus died in the place of those who are saved while did he rise
>>>>>again ? He should be dead in our place as death was our destiny as
>>>>>sinners .
>>>>
>>>> That's an easy one. He didn't die in the *place* of others. His death
>>>> was one
>>>> of example of total obedience to his Father. "If it be your will,
>>>> Father,
>>>> spare
>>>> me this cup, not my will but yours". Mat 26:39
>>>
>>>What? You believers just claimed Jesus was God! That he fathered himself
>>>with his own mother!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> 1+1+1=1.
>
>Yep! You're as much as saying God fathered himself with his own
>mother...........
No, but I do expect more of a discussion than you appear capable of.
Pastor Dave
<curtj...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I have not read it yet, but I just wanted
to let you know that I am not ignoring you.
I will respond tomorrow, okay? :)
Also understand (I don't know yet what
your response was) that I am not seeking
to insult you, with words like "ignorance"
and such words. It just means, "uninformed"
and we are all "uninformed" about various
things, amen? :) So don't take offense.
I know I am pretty direct, but that's all
I mean by it.
Have a good night. :)
--
Pastor Dave
If the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a radio
out of a coconut, why can't he fix a hole in a boat?
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<curtj...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
>On Dec 10, 1:27�pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:49:22 -0800 (PST),
>> curtjester1 spake thusly:
>>
>>>On Dec 8, 4:24 pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:49:56 -0800 (PST),
>>>> curtjester1 spake thusly:
>>>>
>>>>> The people who reign with Christ will have been risen
>>>>> and be spirit creatures. That's why though there is a
>>>>> "new heaven" and a "new earth". One would need
>>>>> a different type of resurrection to both.
>>>>
>>>> That's a claim, not proof.
>>>
>>> The Bible corroborates throughout. �Isaiah 65 speaks
>>> of a new heavens and new earth as well, with all the
>>> physicalities known for earth living.
>>
>> ...just as they were on the old earth.
>>
>> It's not speaking of a physical "new heavens and earth"
>> and your belief comes straight from ignorance of the
>> symbolism used by the Jews and found in the Scriptures.
>
> So are you saying that the whole Jewish system and
> people's were merely 'ignorant' in not having any
> heavenly hope and only having the kingdom restored
> for the earth?
It wasn't "the whole Jewish system". It was those
Jewish believers who believed that. And yes, I am
saying that they were ignorant and so did Jesus:
Notice now, He is answering the Pharisees not about
that moment, but about a future (still future at that
time) coming of the Kingdom and shows them that
it is about the spiritual and specifically says they
would not be able to see it, which can only mean
that it wouldn't be physical, or they would have
been able to see it.
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered
them and said; The Kingdom of God cometh NOT
with observation:
21) NEITHER shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there!
For, behold, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.
Now you have two options here:
1) Okay, I believe you, Jesus!
2) Well, Jesus did not know what we know today
and it will be physical.
Are you better than Jesus? Are you more knowledgeable
than Jesus?
And finally, why do you pretend to believe the Bible,
but then reject what it says when it doesn't line up
with your doctrine? Is your doctrine more important
to you than what God Almighty said?
And btw, nowhere did Jesus say; "But later it will be"
and your interpretations of what other people said
are just that. Your interpretation. But what is for
sure, is that Jesus said that it would NOT be seen
with the eye and that means it couldn't be physical.
> You might want to look up Daniel 2:35,44-45 about
> their thoughts on government destroying the governents
> here on earth where they would reside. Of course that's
> not really new since it came from Gen. 3:15 and the
> first prophecy of the Bible (for the future).
You are so brainwashed by your Futurist doctrine,
that you can't even see what the Bible says anymore!
The fact is, that this was about the four kingdoms
that Daniel mentioned. No, he never said "five"
and he never said "revived Roman Empire", so
don't even bother.
The fact is, that the four kingdoms started then
just as Daniel said to good ol' Nebby (thou art
this head) and were:
1) Babylon.
2) Medo-Persia.
3) Greece.
4) Rome.
The fact is, that Daniel said that Christ's Kingdom
would be set up IN THE DAYS OF THOSE KINGS,
so it had to happen before all of those kingdoms
had expired:
"And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS shall the God
of Heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be
destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other
people, but it shall break in pieces and consume
all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
- Daniel 2:44
So sorry, you lose! :)
>> And if you want to take it all physically, then you need
>> to take it all physically and you don't get to make excuses
>> for the fact that it says death will also be present.
>
> Of course death will be present, when their is the curse
> of death involved from the Garden. It's called Adamic
> Death. When that is no more, when "the curse is no
> more" in Rev. 22, then death will be "no more".
Actually, it says it in Revelation 21, when it speaks of
the new heaven and earth, which is the opposite of
what Isaiah said about the new heaven and earth.
So if you want to take it literally, then you do indeed
have a problem.
You also have a problem, is that you're saying that
the whole concept of this new physical planet, is death.
>>>>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be
>>>>> shown in Rev. 22
>>>>
>>>> Revelation says no such thing.
>>>>
>>>> And don't bother with the typical verses, as if I,
>>>> a pastor, has never read them. You Futurists
>>>> need to stop quoting passages as if whatever
>>>> you believe is what they say.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> where "the nations will be cured,
>>>>> by the trees of life",
>>>>
>>>> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
>>>> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
>>>> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
>>>> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
>>>> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>>>
>>> Because nations are obviously 'uncured' because
>>> of their ways of life and sinful tendencies.
>>
>> Right. �And you don't get that your doctrine
>> is self-contradictory on its face?
>
> How could one? Since your doctrine is for people
> that are deemed save-worthy going to heaven,
> and how will they be rulers if they have no one
> to rule over? That is your dilemma and your
> contradiction.
Are you on drugs?
>> Here you are, with your "new heaven and earth"
>> that's supposed to be all about peace and only
>> the saved present, living in their "resurrected,
>> super, live forever bodies" and yet, you've got
>> "uncured people, who are uncured because of
>> their sinful tendencies".
>
> Absolutely. That is why they have tests. Adam wasn't
> in the forever status until he obeyed by not eating of
> the forbidden tree and eating from the tree of life.
> Nobody on earth will be saved until they get to the
> point of being ready to pass the test at the end of
> the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Those who pass
> will be "cured", thus "the curse will be no more."
> It's so plain, simple, and logical.
No, it isn't, because what you are citing, if we took it
to be physically literal, happens after the new heaven
and earth and that is after people are resurrected to
either eternal life, or damnation. So that is already
done, so there is no "test" to pass and nowhere
does the Bible say; "...and when they pass the test
after resurrection...".
>> And of course, your doctrine tells you that God
>> and Jesus come here to live forever in a new
>> Jerusalem and this means that they'll be trapped
>> in this city, because obviously, God cannot be
>> around sin. �So you've got God and Jesus moving
>> out of Heaven, which was perfect, into a city in
>> which they cannot leave, or God will have to live
>> in sinful places, with sinners, because you said
>> that's what they are and so, what do we have?
>
> We have what was in the Garden. God or Jesus
> didn't or wouldn't have to leave anywhere to get
> the message across.
You're not listening and you're not making any sense
and you're completely ignoring the point I made.
>> We have a world full of sin again, with sick people
>> who are uncured, even though your doctrine would
>> have claimed that the "new earth" would be perfect,
>> which means there';s no need of cures, since it's
>> supposed to be only the saved in their super new
>> resurrected bodies and we have disease, sin
>> and God trapped in a city, which means it was
>> all FOR NOTHING, which makes God an idiot
>> for spending all of that time, just to end up
>> worse off than He was and it all was!
>
> People can be given in time or immediately, however
> God perfoms,bodies that will never die, and a mind
> that will be without the effects of sin. That is what
> Adam had. Why doesn't one think that could be
> achieved again? There is nothing relevant about
> being worse off, as it's just God's will of true justice
> unfolding as he wanted and deemed it.
Right. So His "true justice" is Him holed up in a city
on a new earth that is just as sinful as the old earth.
Gotcha! :)
> He wants a Paradise earth where all will obey him,
>willingly. The willingly part is part of the nature of
> free will, which Adam and Eve had as well as the
> spirit creatures God created, Jesus being included.
They are supposedly already resurrected into bodies
that have no more sin nature, so this would not be
an issue.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
The Last Days were in the first century:
"For yet, A LITTLE WHILE, and He that shall come
will come, and WILL NOT TARRY. - Hebrews 10:37
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
>THE BIBLE IS NOT A PROVEN SOURCE OF TRUTH. Each person who reads it comes up
>with his own interpretations. Since it's a book of fiction, your quoting
>from it as if your statement followed by a certain verse is meaningless. I
>don't care HOW much you think it's true, it is NOT.
And yet, here you are, subscribing to these news groups.
Like I said, I've never met a real atheist. Just really
scared believers.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
He did not make us alive and new that we might
give Him something old and dead. - Unknown
curtjester1
wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:29:44 -0800 (PST), curtjester1
as the Jews on purpose?
> Notice now, He is answering the Pharisees not about
> that moment, but about a future (still future at that
> time) coming of the Kingdom and shows them that
> it is about the spiritual and specifically says they
> would not be able to see it, which can only mean
> that it wouldn't be physical, or they would have
> been able to see it.
>
> Luke 17:20-21
>
> 20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
> when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered
> them and said; The Kingdom of God cometh NOT
> with observation:
> 21) NEITHER shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there!
> For, behold, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.
>
> Now you have two options here:
>
> 1) Okay, I believe you, Jesus!
>
> 2) Well, Jesus did not know what we know today
> and it will be physical.
>
Of course you don't believe in the most important #3 in that the
kingdom would be born in the heavens on his arrival (parousia). The
end of the system coming is from two other words that refer to the end
of the system prior to the great tribulation and future events. The
kingdom would not come with striking observableness means that it
arrived with the ouster of Satan the Devil and his demons from heaven
to earth. The earth and it's systems would be influenced by this
even, of Christ's arrival which was the establishment of the Heavenly
Kingdom. There are many Bible references for this, but Revelation 12
says it best. Recommended reading. Obviously if one looks at a Matt.
24, and the disciples asked about what to look for on his ARRIVAL,
there were many physical signs that would accomany that arrival.
Knowing what is established, where, and why is key.
> Are you better than Jesus? Are you more knowledgeable
> than Jesus?
>
> And finally, why do you pretend to believe the Bible,
> but then reject what it says when it doesn't line up
> with your doctrine? Is your doctrine more important
> to you than what God Almighty said?
>
> And btw, nowhere did Jesus say; "But later it will be"
> and your interpretations of what other people said
> are just that. Your interpretation. But what is for
> sure, is that Jesus said that it would NOT be seen
> with the eye and that means it couldn't be physical.
>
Wrong as two left shoes.
I am sorry but if you look at the scripture again the kingdom would
fill the whole earth. Your kingdom list is sorely lacking as the
Roman power would be defeated a dual kingdom would be the last
kingdom...which is the British American world power. Please read 'Pay
Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!' by the Watchtower Society for all the
relevant kings and horns and all the rulers that took place plus the
interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream and the Prophecy of the Tree,
that would show the time of the prophecy would start with the
desolation of Jerusalem and would include 7 times that would end up as
2,520 years of Bible prophetic years to this generation we are living
in.
> >> And if you want to take it all physically, then you need
> >> to take it all physically and you don't get to make excuses
> >> for the fact that it says death will also be present.
>
> > Of course death will be present, when their is the curse
> > of death involved from the Garden. It's called Adamic
> > Death. When that is no more, when "the curse is no
> > more" in Rev. 22, then death will be "no more".
>
> Actually, it says it in Revelation 21, when it speaks of
> the new heaven and earth, which is the opposite of
> what Isaiah said about the new heaven and earth.
> So if you want to take it literally, then you do indeed
> have a problem.
>
There is no problem between Isaiah's or Peter's, or Revelation's new
heavens and new earth. New heavens needed a cleansing and a
furthering of God's will and plan. Done. So does the earth to
restore what Adam lost in the Garden. Again, that's why the nations
will be cured and the curse will be no more. Everything will be
restored for what was intended from the beginning, earthly living with
people worshipping the one and true God, Jehovah, Jesus' God.
> You also have a problem, is that you're saying that
> the whole concept of this new physical planet, is death.
>
>
The simple concept is that the new earth will be used for 1,000 years
to prepare for a test for mankind. It's even quoted in Revelation 20
what will happen at that test. Even some who have reached Adamic
perfection, will fail the test. It's called the second death. That
means there will be no more chance for life when one fails that test.
>
>
>
> >>>>> The 1,000 year reign will be on earth...as can be
> >>>>> shown in Rev. 22
>
> >>>> Revelation says no such thing.
>
> >>>> And don't bother with the typical verses, as if I,
> >>>> a pastor, has never read them. You Futurists
> >>>> need to stop quoting passages as if whatever
> >>>> you believe is what they say.
>
> >>>>> where "the nations will be cured,
> >>>>> by the trees of life",
>
> >>>> Really? So why would "the nations" need curing,
> >>>> if we all have these way cool, new, "live forever"
> >>>> bodies??? That's the question that Futurists
> >>>> cannot answer, because they refuse to see how
> >>>> self-contradictory their doctrine is.
>
> >>> Because nations are obviously 'uncured' because
> >>> of their ways of life and sinful tendencies.
>
> >> Right. And you don't get that your doctrine
> >> is self-contradictory on its face?
>
> > How could one? Since your doctrine is for people
> > that are deemed save-worthy going to heaven,
> > and how will they be rulers if they have no one
> > to rule over? That is your dilemma and your
> > contradiction.
>
> Are you on drugs?
>
Answer the question. What are the kings and priest going to rule over
if they are all in heaven? Each other??!!
> >> Here you are, with your "new heaven and earth"
> >> that's supposed to be all about peace and only
> >> the saved present, living in their "resurrected,
> >> super, live forever bodies" and yet, you've got
> >> "uncured people, who are uncured because of
> >> their sinful tendencies".
>
> > Absolutely. That is why they have tests. Adam wasn't
> > in the forever status until he obeyed by not eating of
> > the forbidden tree and eating from the tree of life.
> > Nobody on earth will be saved until they get to the
> > point of being ready to pass the test at the end of
> > the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Those who pass
> > will be "cured", thus "the curse will be no more."
> > It's so plain, simple, and logical.
>
> No, it isn't, because what you are citing, if we took it
> to be physically literal, happens after the new heaven
> and earth and that is after people are resurrected to
> either eternal life, or damnation. So that is already
> done, so there is no "test" to pass and nowhere
> does the Bible say; "...and when they pass the test
> after resurrection...".
>
Back to the Jewish system. Those people had no hope of going to
heaven, whether you think they were ignorant or not. They have to be
resurrected into the new earth, and have a chance for to accept the
atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and be restored back to perfection
like all the rest in the new earth of the 1,000 year reign. It's
actually significant that Adam didn't live to be 1,000 years even
though he lived over 900 years, because those who live a 1,000 years
will be able to have what Adam lost, they will have the ability to
live and live eternally.
> >> And of course, your doctrine tells you that God
> >> and Jesus come here to live forever in a new
> >> Jerusalem and this means that they'll be trapped
> >> in this city, because obviously, God cannot be
> >> around sin. So you've got God and Jesus moving
> >> out of Heaven, which was perfect, into a city in
> >> which they cannot leave, or God will have to live
> >> in sinful places, with sinners, because you said
> >> that's what they are and so, what do we have?
>
> > We have what was in the Garden. God or Jesus
> > didn't or wouldn't have to leave anywhere to get
> > the message across.
>
> You're not listening and you're not making any sense
> and you're completely ignoring the point I made.
>
>
>
Your points aren't Bilbical so it's mute, but what I emphasized is
that God communicated in the Garden and that can be replicated for his
purpose, no matter where you think God or Jesus may be residing.
>
>
> >> We have a world full of sin again, with sick people
> >> who are uncured, even though your doctrine would
> >> have claimed that the "new earth" would be perfect,
> >> which means there';s no need of cures, since it's
> >> supposed to be only the saved in their super new
> >> resurrected bodies and we have disease, sin
> >> and God trapped in a city, which means it was
> >> all FOR NOTHING, which makes God an idiot
> >> for spending all of that time, just to end up
> >> worse off than He was and it all was!
>
> > People can be given in time or immediately, however
> > God perfoms,bodies that will never die, and a mind
> > that will be without the effects of sin. That is what
> > Adam had. Why doesn't one think that could be
> > achieved again? There is nothing relevant about
> > being worse off, as it's just God's will of true justice
> > unfolding as he wanted and deemed it.
>
> Right. So His "true justice" is Him holed up in a city
> on a new earth that is just as sinful as the old earth.
>
> Gotcha! :)
>
Not holed up. There will be a whole process that he created from the
Jewish system, called a priesthood. That was a model for the
Christian system which would rule the earth. Jesus is even a Priest
in the manner of Melchezidek! It's a plan to reach a conclusion, and
like I said after the tests, perfections, through the Priesthood,
everything will be given on a silver platter so to speak back to the
Father, Jehovah.
I Cor. 15:24-28
> > He wants a Paradise earth where all will obey him,
> >willingly. The willingly part is part of the nature of
> > free will, which Adam and Eve had as well as the
> > spirit creatures God created, Jesus being included.
>
> They are supposedly already resurrected into bodies
> that have no more sin nature, so this would not be
> an issue.
>
Not for ones resurrected to heaven for sure. Their resurrection is
one of "incorruption"...meaning they will be not tested.
CJ
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> The Last Days were in the first century:
>
> "For yet, A LITTLE WHILE, and He that shall come
> will come, and WILL NOT TARRY. - Hebrews 10:37- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Rob
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:06v6i5526ni9t7doe...@4ax.com...
I offer comments so people who read here but never comment can see the
issues. If the name of this newsgroup was "fiction books and their
interpretations" I might still subscribe. But it doesn't mean that I believe
the story. This group could be about Moby Dick. But it's still fiction.
Unless you can produce video of the whale?? You've never met a lot of
people. You've never met the person who makes it his crusade in life to
debunk the Bible and spends 16 hours a day for 50 years doing it. You
obviously haven't met MANY intelligent people since you refuse to learn to
think. And I'm not a scared believer. That is truly a stupid assumption. Why
don't you apply your "only you think you're clever" talents to finding valid
proof for the existence of God and the Bible being true rather than trying
to be "cute" here.
Parish *~
Parish *~
"Rob" <rob9...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b22ba30$0$4888$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>
> THE BIBLE IS NOT A PROVEN SOURCE OF TRUTH. Each person who reads it comes
> up
> with his own interpretations. Since it's a book of fiction, your quoting
> from it as if your statement followed by a certain verse is meaningless. I
> don't care HOW much you think it's true, it is NOT. I can't wait until
> Camping dies and the year 2013 comes along. Then maybe some of you
> lunatics
> will get real jobs and will stop mentally masturbating your lives away.
>
They'll all just come up with NEW DATES and carry on as if nothing happened.
The cycle will repeat itself until they die. ;-)
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making great gobs of easy money."
Ips-Switch
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:06v6i5526ni9t7doe...@4ax.com...
> spake thusly:
>
>
>>THE BIBLE IS NOT A PROVEN SOURCE OF TRUTH. Each person who reads it comes
>>up
>>with his own interpretations. Since it's a book of fiction, your quoting
>>from it as if your statement followed by a certain verse is meaningless. I
>>don't care HOW much you think it's true, it is NOT.
>
> And yet, here you are, subscribing to these news groups.
>
> Like I said, I've never met a real atheist. Just really
> scared believers.
Speaking about yourself again Dave?
Ips-Switch
>
> I offer comments so people who read here but never comment can see the
> issues. If the name of this newsgroup was "fiction books and their
> interpretations" I might still subscribe. But it doesn't mean that I
> believe
> the story. This group could be about Moby Dick. But it's still fiction.
> Unless you can produce video of the whale?? You've never met a lot of
> people. You've never met the person who makes it his crusade in life to
> debunk the Bible and spends 16 hours a day for 50 years doing it. You
> obviously haven't met MANY intelligent people since you refuse to learn to
> think. And I'm not a scared believer. That is truly a stupid assumption.
> Why
> don't you apply your "only you think you're clever" talents to finding
> valid
> proof for the existence of God and the Bible being true rather than trying
> to be "cute" here.
>
>
Dave uses that BS to manipulate and anger agnostics and atheists. If they
so feared his mass murdering serial killing god they'd be down on their
knees as he is. Better to die on one's feet than live on one's knees
kissing ass.
Parish *~
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:08:11 -0600, "Parish *~"
> <Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>
>
>>"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:janvh59tptprciemf...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:06:37 -0600, "Parish *~"
>>> <Par...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Another problem with you is that you don't listen
>>>> to Open Forum very well if you do as you ignore
>>>> Camping's explanations on the year 1994. This
>>>> issue of 1994 is being raised very often by listeners
>>>> and Camping answers .
>>>
>>> That's because he was wrong, as he always is
>>> about the supposed "end times".
>>
>>Why did you remove OBVES header?
>
> When someone hits "Reply" and your name appears
> at the top, then that means that it is you who wrote
> the last message and that is what happened and is
> what does happen every time I look at and reply to
> one of your messages, which is why I keep thinking
> that it's you who wrote the messages.
I don't get it. OBVES replies show up under his header and my messages
under my header on my NR. Your newsreader may need tweaking.
>
> So the real question is, why is your setup making it
> turn out that way?
It's not my set-up or it would be happening to all who reply.
>
> I now know however, that you are not a believer
> and are just here to antagonize believers, so I will
> now kill file you, as I don't waste my time with
> such nonsense in Biblical news groups.
Suit yourself. I'm an agnostic. I see no proof either way. That's been
explained to you before.
Parish *~
And I expected more of an answer than you appear capable of giving. God and
Jesus can't be the same god/god-man-hybrid, or he would have fathered
himself with is own mother.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making money."
duke
But we don't reject any of it.
duke
I'm not the one that said the they are the same god/god-man-hybrid. You did.
curtjester1
> "curtjester1" <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Why would you care, since Bible believers are so many and you seem to
have this interest in an 'irrelevant' life? Seems like your stooping
to a level that isn't doing much good is it? Why instead of railing
against the Bible, find a way that it can be proven to be 'untrue', or
find a reason why it would be a difference if it were or weren't
true? Do you think the non-belivers of this world are making it
better to live in??!! My they can't even pay the rent on their houses
or afford to buy one...and all the money is gone to elitists or people
that are searching for clues in outerspace for something they think is
relevant. I could care less when anyone dies...and it's definitely
not earth-shattering to make a prediction. They make them all the
time in the National Enquirer, and do you see people ranting about how
the world is going to go downhill because a prediction isn't right?
Of course, people don't realize that predictions are nothing to even
be feared as it's really more or less speculation on what one
interprets. The sin from the Bible is saying that the prediction
came directly from God. Those are the ones we are worried about. (Of
course, all one has to do is turn on their TV's and see someone on a
religious channel saying God said this to me...or God told me
that...and this is how it affected my life..etc.) I definitely worry
about those too.
And read the Bible especially the book of Daniel, and you'll see just
how much authenticity and reliability is there. Predicting 2 to 3
thousand years of events and rulers are not easy for any mere
earthling mortal.
CJ
Parish *~
Nope! You made the claim that Jesus was God in the flesh.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:el7ai5tn0tf93r3v0...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:57:46 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>>And I expected more of an answer than you appear capable of giving. God
>>>and
>>>Jesus can't be the same god/god-man-hybrid, or he would have fathered
>>>himself with is own mother.
>>
>> I'm not the one that said the they are the same god/god-man-hybrid. You
>> did.
>
>Nope! You made the claim that Jesus was God in the flesh.
I said Jesus, the 2nd person of the Godhead, is God become man.
OB...@aol.com
----
Jesus is God's image . He represents God Yahweh who is his Father and
God the best imaginable way .
He is the Hight Priest in the New Testament order ; if so,he must be a
servant of God !
Jesus is called God metaphorically as Moses was made God as per Exodus
7.1.
Moses was not God but through Moses we could know who is the true God
Yahweh just as through Jesus ( so he must be God too ) we can know who
is the only true God Yahweh !
At the core is a confusion of two words God mixed up together .
The word God applied to Jesus has another connotation in it and it
must be read in the light of the Scripture.
Jesus is wiser than you .
He himself said that God the Father is the only true God - John 17.3.
Moses and Jesus could not be false Gods ;so we look for another
reasonable meaning to the word God applied to Jesus and Moses.
Parish *~
> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:45:02 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>>>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:31:41 GMT, "Clarence D"
>>>>>>> <cdu...@telusplanet.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> except
>>>>>>> sin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sin is a meaningless concept. What one religion sees as sin another
>>>>>>does
>>>>>>not.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's only one God.
>>>>
>>>>And many religions...........
>>>
>>> ...........depending on what teachings each protest_ant faith rejects.
>>
>>Just like the RCC.
>
> But we don't reject any of it.
You have no choice, as you have no choice but to defend the pedophile
priests.
Parish *~
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:08:39 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:el7ai5tn0tf93r3v0...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:57:46 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>>And I expected more of an answer than you appear capable of giving. God
>>>>and
>>>>Jesus can't be the same god/god-man-hybrid, or he would have fathered
>>>>himself with is own mother.
>>>
>>> I'm not the one that said the they are the same god/god-man-hybrid. You
>>> did.
>>
>>Nope! You made the claim that Jesus was God in the flesh.
>
> I said Jesus, the 2nd person of the Godhead, is God become man.
Now there's a unbiblical "Godhead?" Where'd that come from? Another thing
dreamed up by some Pope? So God was both himself and his human son (man/God
hybrid) at the same time,... by impregnating a human as she slept. You
gotta be kidding!
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making fast easy money."
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:ek7ai5186ngv1p3gf...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:45:02 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:pvish512r4tf295lf...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:31:41 GMT, "Clarence D"
>>>>>>>> <cdu...@telusplanet.net>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>
>
>>>>>>>> except
>>>>>>>> sin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sin is a meaningless concept. What one religion sees as sin another
>>>>>>>does
>>>>>>>not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's only one God.
>>>>>
>>>>>And many religions...........
>>>>
>>>> ...........depending on what teachings each protest_ant faith rejects.
>>>
>>>Just like the RCC.
>>
>> But we don't reject any of it.
>
>You have no choice, as you have no choice but to defend the pedophile
>priests.
I don't defend pedophile priests. They would go in the same jail cell as you.
duke
>On Dec 19, 11:41?am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net>
>----
>Jesus is God's image . He represents God Yahweh who is his Father and
>God the best imaginable way .
And that leaves you out as a Christian.
>He is the Hight Priest in the New Testament order ; if so,he must be a
>servant of God !
>Jesus is called God metaphorically as Moses was made God as per Exodus
>7.1.
>Moses was not God but through Moses we could know who is the true God
>Yahweh just as through Jesus ( so he must be God too ) we can know who
>is the only true God Yahweh !
>
>At the core is a confusion of two words God mixed up together .
>The word God applied to Jesus has another connotation in it and it
>must be read in the light of the Scripture.
>Jesus is wiser than you .
>He himself said that God the Father is the only true God - John 17.3.
>Moses and Jesus could not be false Gods ;so we look for another
>reasonable meaning to the word God applied to Jesus and Moses.
The Dukester, American-American
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:kf0qi5t87em932u6t...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:08:39 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>news:el7ai5tn0tf93r3v0...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:57:46 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>And I expected more of an answer than you appear capable of giving. God
>>>>>and
>>>>>Jesus can't be the same god/god-man-hybrid, or he would have fathered
>>>>>himself with is own mother.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not the one that said the they are the same god/god-man-hybrid. You
>>>> did.
>>>
>>>Nope! You made the claim that Jesus was God in the flesh.
>>
>> I said Jesus, the 2nd person of the Godhead, is God become man.
>
>Now there's a unbiblical "Godhead?" Where'd that come from?
No, that came from you.
> Another thing
>dreamed up by some Pope? So God was both himself and his human son (man/God
>hybrid) at the same time,... by impregnating a human as she slept. You
>gotta be kidding!
Parish *~
You belong in a jail cell for defending these pedophiles. You're as guilty
as they are.
Parish *~
>>
>>Now there's a unbiblical "Godhead?" Where'd that come from?
>
> No, that came from you.
LOL!!! You're so forgetful you can't remember what you post from day to
day!!! :-D
Here it is and you deny you said it. Do you suffer from Alzheimer's, take
drugs, drink or are you just a liar?
> "duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:kf0qi5t87em932u6t...@4ax.com...
>>
>> I said Jesus, the 2nd person of the Godhead, is God become man.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making money."
duke
Except that never defended them.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:rtksi5h7nh1hp6fii...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>Now there's a unbiblical "Godhead?" Where'd that come from?
>>
>> No, that came from you.
>
>LOL!!! You're so forgetful you can't remember what you post from day to
>day!!! :-D
>Here it is and you deny you said it. Do you suffer from Alzheimer's, take
>drugs, drink or are you just a liar?
Hmmmm, you're terribly confused.
>> "duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:kf0qi5t87em932u6t...@4ax.com...
>>> I said Jesus, the 2nd person of the Godhead, is God become man.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
>> And of course, your doctrine tells you that God
>> and Jesus come here to live forever in a new
>> Jerusalem and this means that they'll be trapped
>> in this city, because obviously, God cannot be
>> around sin. So you've got God and Jesus moving
>> out of Heaven, which was perfect, into a city in
>> which they cannot leave, or God will have to live
>> in sinful places, with sinners, because you said
>> that's what they are and so, what do we have?
>>
>> We have a world full of sin again, with sick people
>> who are uncured, even though your doctrine would
>> have claimed that the "new earth" would be perfect,
>> which means there';s no need of cures, since it's
>> supposed to be only the saved in their super new
>> resurrected bodies and we have disease, sin
>> and God trapped in a city, which means it was
>> all FOR NOTHING, which makes God an idiot
>> for spending all of that time, just to end up
>> worse off than He was and it all was!
>
> People can be given in time or immediately, however
> God perfoms, bodies that will never die, and a mind
> that will be without the effects of sin.
In time or immediately? Ridiculous! The fact is,
you're changing up what we both know Futurist
doctrine consists of, which is that the judgment
happens and it consists of living believers being
changed into their, "super, regenerated, live forever
bodies that have no sin nature", while dead believers
are resurrected into the same and dead unbelievers
are raised and judged along with living unbelievers
and condemned to the lake of fire. Then, the old
heaven and earth are consumed and a new heaven
and earth appear. Then, the new Jerusalem comes
down and God and Jesus move into it and only
believers, who now all have their "super, regenerated,
live forever bodies that have no sin nature" live on it
and there are "no more tears" and no more sin.
This runs completely contrary to the facts I showed you
and it means that the above Futurist doctrine is wrong
and do not try to pretend that I am not stating it
accurately! We all know that I am!
So let's not play with each other, sir. You guys are
changing your doctrine as you go, to try to get around
the facts that I showed you here and we all know it
and yet, for some reason, you think that everyone
is so stupid, that they can't tell and that is insulting!
The problem for this mainstream Futurist doctrine,
after seeing the facts, is that what would really
end up happening, is that God and Jesus would
end up trapped in this new Jerusalem, while sinners
were all around it and the world is full of sin and
death is still around and healing is needed, etc.
and there is nothing you're going to do or say,
that will change that!
Furthermore, as we all know, sinners are not given
another chance after the resurrection occurs, if it
is what you Futurists believe it is and therefore,
if there is still sin in the world even after God and
Jesus make their appearance, that means that to
believe the doctrine, is to also state that the Bible
contradicts itself!
Now the fact is, that Futurists, when confronted
with the Scriptural facts and the fact that their
doctrine always ends up being hypocritical and
self-contradictory, do not have the integrity to
admit when it is shown to be in error, because
their doctrine is more important to them than
the Scriptures, while they hypocritically stand up
in church and say "Amen!", when the preacher
talks about how we need to place Scripture
above and all doctrines!
And again, for some reason, Futurists think that
even though they know how ridiculous it is to
try to wiggle out of the facts while they're typing
the response, that it will somehow look intelligent
after they send it! Please! (:
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
Bathroom Fact: While a few hundred bacteria are
typically found on a toilet seat, over six thousand
are typically found on the faucet to the bathroom sink.
Christ-O-Fascist
>
>>> And of course, your doctrine tells you that God
>>> and Jesus come here to live forever in a new
>>> Jerusalem and this means that they'll be trapped
>>> in this city, because obviously, God cannot be
>>> around sin. So you've got God and Jesus moving
>>> out of Heaven, which was perfect, into a city in
>>> which they cannot leave, or God will have to live
>>> in sinful places, with sinners, because you said
>>> that's what they are and so, what do we have?
>>>
>>> We have a world full of sin again, with sick people
>>> who are uncured, even though your doctrine would
>>> have claimed that the "new earth" would be perfect,
>>> which means there';s no need of cures, since it's
>>> supposed to be only the saved in their super new
>>> resurrected bodies and we have disease, sin
>>> and God trapped in a city, which means it was
>>> all FOR NOTHING, which makes God an idiot
>>> for spending all of that time, just to end up
>>> worse off than He was and it all was!
>>
>> People can be given in time or immediately, however
>> God perfoms, bodies that will never die
>>> snipped remaining drivel mid-drip <<<
So what kind of bodies do we get? Do we get to choose or are we given names
drawn from a hat? I would like to be in Brittany Murphy ... (oops too soon?)
or Schwarzinnigger at the heght of his award-winning body-building pot
smoking days, etc - lol
You're a pathetic twisted fantasizer at best get real and go die to meet your
maker sooner rather than later and let the rest of us live in peace free from
your drivelistic stench...
--
OPEN A BIBLE and *IT* closes your mind...
- Auntie Christstain
- - Book Of Realizations
--
Spirituality without religion is like air without the smog...refreshing <g>
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<curtj...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
> On Dec 12, 6:21�am, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:29:44 -0800 (PST),
>> curtjester1 spake thusly:
>>
>>>> It's not speaking of a physical "new heavens and earth"
>>>> and your belief comes straight from ignorance of the
>>>> symbolism used by the Jews and found in the Scriptures.
>>>
>>> So are you saying that the whole Jewish system and
>>> people's were merely 'ignorant' in not having any
>>> heavenly hope and only having the kingdom restored
>>> for the earth?
>>
>> It wasn't "the whole Jewish system". �It was those
>> Jewish believers who believed that. �And yes, I am
>> saying that they were ignorant and so did Jesus:
>
> What were they ignorant of? Why would God make
> people ignorant such as the Jews on purpose?
You're playing dodge ball now. I expect you
to be honest and deal with the issues in a
straightforward fashion.
For example, it is easy to see that they were
ignorant about what the Kingdom of God
actually is, since they thought it would be
physical, when Jesus said it would be within
and spiritual.
And as for you....
You are ignorant of what the Kingdom of God
is all about, since you, like they did, believe
that the Kingdom of God is supposed to be
physical, even though Jesus specifically said
that it would not be. I cannot say though,
that that makes you ignorant of it, since you
now know specifically what Jesus said about it
and so, that doesn't make you no longer just
ignorant about it, but as Peter said, you are
now what would be called, "willingly ignorant".
Sorry to say it this way, but basically, that
means, "dumb on purpose". And you are
that way, because your doctrine is more
important to you than what the Scripture says
and let's be honest. To you, if the Bible is not
all about you and your time and this physical
world, then to you, the Bible is a useless waste
of paper and ink. You simply do NOT WANT
to hear that it is about the spiritual, even though
like the rest of the Futurists, you have stood up
in church and said "Amen!" when the preacher
said our focus is not to be on this world and
what's going on around us, but rather, we are
to look up toward Heaven and place our focus
there. But in reality, the focus of the Futurist
is the opposite of that and is pointed right here
on this Earth and the physical, which is what
they await and which is their actual "hope"!
For another example, they were ignorant,
since they did not recognize Him as the
Messiah and since they though the Messiah
was going to come to lead a military campaign.
And you are ignorant of the Messiah's mission,
since you also indeed await His coming to lead
a military campaign and the only difference is
that you think it's on His return. But you are
in effect, no better than they were, completely
missing what His mission was about! (:
>> Notice now, He is answering the Pharisees
>> not about that moment, but about a future
>> (still future at that time) coming of the Kingdom
>> and shows them that it is about the spiritual
>> and specifically says they would not be able
>> to see it, which can only mean that it wouldn't
>> be physical, or they would have been able to
>> see it.
>>
>> Luke 17:20-21
>>
>> 20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
>> when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered
>> them and said; The Kingdom of God cometh NOT
>> with observation:
>> 21) NEITHER shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there!
>> For, behold, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.
>>
>> Now you have two options here:
>>
>> 1) Okay, I believe you, Jesus!
>>
>> 2) Well, Jesus did not know what we know today
>> � � and it will be physical.
>
> Of course you don't believe in the most important
> #3 in that the kingdom would be born in the
> heavens on his arrival (parousia).
Notice how you immediately try to put it in
YOUR future. But where does the Bible say,
"And in 2009 AD, it will still be in the future!"?
Also notice how you assume that His parousia
was about Him coming being physically seen.
But that is your doctrine and that is not proof.
You also spout out more of your doctrine,
telling me it happens prior to what you
call "The Great Tribulation" and that again,
is YOUR DOCTRINE, NOT PROOF!
YOU ASSUME your doctrine to be true and think
that I'm supposed to prove you wrong, by first
accepting your doctrine as correct. Huh???
The fact is, that this is about the Kingdom
consists of and according to Jesus, it does
not consist of the physical, but the spiritual.
> The end of the system coming is from
> two other words that refer to the end
> of the system prior to the great tribulation
> and future events.
That's a claim, not proof. It was about the end
of the Old Covenant and the establishment of
the New Covenant visibly, in the sense that the
Temple would be destroyed, Jerusalem desolated
and Judea attacked, as Jesus said. It did not
have anything to do with some "world event",
as in a "world war". It was about a covenant
and spiritually, the Kingdom of God had already
been established and what they awaited, was
the physical destruction of the Temple as proof.
And that is what the Bible says it was about
and it says so, in the same verse that Futurists,
because they are indoctrinated and brainwashed
into reading the Bible through a certain set of
glasses, mistakenly think is talking about the
destruction of the world. And I say brainwashed,
because it specifically says that it is about the
physical end of a covenant, not the world.
And note that he says, "ready" to vanish away,
not "thousands of years from now will"...
"In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, he hath made
the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth
old is READY to VANISH away." - Hebrews 8:13
And Jesus told us what "all things fulfilled" would
be about in Luke 21, which is the parallel to His
discourse in Matthew 24, on His return and it was
not about what you claim, but about taking vengeance
on those who rejected and killed the Son, just as
He said it would be in Matthew 21:33-43, period!
Luke 21:20-22
20) And when ye shall see JERUSALEM compassed
with armies, then know that the desolation THEREOF
is nigh.
21) Then let them which are IN JUDEA flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the midst
of it depart out; and let not them that are in the
countries enter thereinto.
22) For THESE be the days of vengeance, that
ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
> The kingdom would not come with striking
> observableness means that it arrived with
> the ouster of Satan the Devil and his demons
> from heaven to earth.
And this is where the Futurist ADDS TO THE BIBLE,
to make his/her doctrine work!
It does not say the word "striking". What is does
say though, is that it would not come with observation.
It does not say what you claim. It says what
I quoted directly from Scripture.
>> Are you better than Jesus? �Are you more knowledgeable
>> than Jesus?
>>
>> And finally, why do you pretend to believe the Bible,
>> but then reject what it says when it doesn't line up
>> with your doctrine? �Is your doctrine more important
>> to you than what God Almighty said?
>>
>> And btw, nowhere did Jesus say; "But later it will be"
>> and your interpretations of what other people said
>> are just that. �Your interpretation. �But what is for
>> sure, is that Jesus said that it would NOT be seen
>> with the eye and that means it couldn't be physical.
>
> Wrong as two left shoes.
I quoted Him saying it would not be seen with
the eye. Now you wish to claim that it is not
seen with the eye, but is physical? Please! (:
And it does.
> Your kingdom list is sorely lacking as the Roman power
> would be defeated a dual kingdom would be the last
> kingdom... which is the British American world power.
> Please read 'Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!' by
> the Watchtower Society
In other words, you want to ignore what Daniel
ACTUALLY SAID and read a book. No thanks!
Daniel NEVER SAID, "dual kingdom".
>> >> And if you want to take it all physically, then you need
>> >> to take it all physically and you don't get to make excuses
>> >> for the fact that it says death will also be present.
>>
>> > Of course death will be present, when their is the curse
>> > of death involved from the Garden. �It's called Adamic
>> > Death. �When that is no more, when "the curse is no
>> > more" in Rev. 22, then death will be "no more".
>>
>> Actually, it says it in Revelation 21, when it speaks of
>> the new heaven and earth, which is the opposite of
>> what Isaiah said about the new heaven and earth.
>> So if you want to take it literally, then you do indeed
>> have a problem.
>
> There is no problem between Isaiah's or Peter's,
> or Revelation's new heavens and new earth.
There is, if you take it physically. For example,
Isaiah says there will be death and Revelation
says there wouldn't be. That's a contradiction,
if it were meant to be taken physically.
> New heavens needed a cleansing and a furthering
> of God's will and plan. Done.
So this perfect new earth needs a cleansing, huh?
Desperate to keep your doctrine, huh? :)
>> You also have a problem, is that you're saying that
>> the whole concept of this new physical planet, is death.
>
> The simple concept is that the new earth will be used
> for 1,000 years to prepare for a test for mankind. It's
> even quoted in Revelation 20 what will happen at that
> test. Even some who have reached Adamic perfection,
> will fail the test.
Nowhere does the Bible say any of that. That is
your JW doctrine and nothing more.
> Your points aren't Bilbical so it's mute
The word is "moot". And as for your claim,
I find that claim interesting, when I'm the
one quoting the Scriptures and sticking to
what Daniel, Jesus and John actually said
specifically in words, while you go into your
doctrine and talk about countries and other
things that you cannot quote from Scripture.
>>> People can be given in time or immediately, however
>>> God perfoms,bodies that will never die, and a mind
>>> that will be without the effects of sin. �That is what
>>> Adam had. �Why doesn't one think that could be
>>> achieved again? �There is nothing relevant about
>>> being worse off, as it's just God's will of true justice
>>> unfolding as he wanted and deemed it.
>>
>> Right. �So His "true justice" is Him holed up in a city
>> on a new earth that is just as sinful as the old earth.
>>
>> Gotcha! :)
>
> Not holed up.
Yes, holed up, since God cannot be around sin
and your doctrine has sin on the "new earth"
that you believe is physically coming.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
�There is no refuge from confession but suicide;
and suicide is confession.� - Daniel Webster
Pasture Dive
>>> On Dec 12, 6:21 am, Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>> curtjester1 spake thusly:
>>>>> It's not speaking of a physical "new heavens and earth"
>>>>> and your belief comes straight from ignorance of the
>>>>> symbolism used by the Jews and found in the Scriptures.
>>>> So are you saying that the whole Jewish system and
>>>> people's were merely 'ignorant' in not having any
>>>> heavenly hope and only having the kingdom restored
>>>> for the earth?
>>> It wasn't "the whole Jewish system". It was those
>>> Jewish believers who believed that. And yes, I am
>>> saying that they were ignorant and so did Jesus:
>>
>> What were they ignorant of? Why would God make
>> people ignorant such as the Jews on purpose?
Or maybe it's just the same reason blacks white, asians, indians, etc. ooze
ignorance because of a missing link "flaw" in all of us causing billions of
morons to beLIEve thin air is listening-to/watching/recording everything we
all say 24/7/365 ...
--
OPEN A BIBLE and *IT* closes your mind...
- Auntie Christian
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<whack...@every-church.net> spake thusly:
Back to your same, stupid games, huh?
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Words that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled."
- Farmer's Advice
Parish *~
You sure did. You would imprison those bringing their warped actions to
light.
Parish *~
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:09:35 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:rtksi5h7nh1hp6fii...@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>Now there's a unbiblical "Godhead?" Where'd that come from?
>>>
>>> No, that came from you.
>>
>>LOL!!! You're so forgetful you can't remember what you post from day to
>>day!!! :-D
>>Here it is and you deny you said it. Do you suffer from Alzheimer's, take
>>drugs, drink or are you just a liar?
>
> Hmmmm, you're terribly confused.
No confusion here. My NSP picks up your every post. ;-)
duke
No, my specific words were "to jail with the guilty".
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:ggfvi5dkolob3i53s...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:09:35 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>news:rtksi5h7nh1hp6fii...@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>Now there's a unbiblical "Godhead?" Where'd that come from?
>>>>
>>>> No, that came from you.
>>>
>>>LOL!!! You're so forgetful you can't remember what you post from day to
>>>day!!! :-D
>>>Here it is and you deny you said it. Do you suffer from Alzheimer's, take
>>>drugs, drink or are you just a liar?
>>
>> Hmmmm, you're terribly confused.
>
>No confusion here. My NSP picks up your every post. ;-)
Yes, but your inability to comprehend is the issue at hand.
Parish *~
OK... let's jail all the guilty pedophile priests and those who hid them by
merely moving them around. Let's jail all the Bishops etc who knew what was
going on and looked the other way. My, My.... there would be no one left
running the RCC.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making fast easy money."
Parish *~
>
>>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:09:35 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>No confusion here. My NSP picks up your every post. ;-)
>
> Yes, but your inability to comprehend is the issue at hand.
Right... it's hard to comprehend how and why your church looked the other
way for over 60 years while your sexually deviant priests sexually attacked
children.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:ts9cj5ddvmmjetnes...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:40:05 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>>You sure did. You would imprison those bringing their warped actions to
>>>light.
>>
>> No, my specific words were "to jail with the guilty".
>
>OK... let's jail all the guilty pedophile priests
Great. That's ok by me. But where are the witnesses? Or are you suggesting
that an accusation by a 10 year old boy is sufficient to put someone in jail?
> and those who hid them by
>merely moving them around.
The JJ report said very few were moved for suspected pedophilia. Your problem
is that you don't understand that assistant pastors are moved every 2 years as a
matter of policy, and you can't differentiate between the two moves.
> Let's jail all the Bishops etc who knew what was
>going on and looked the other way. My, My.... there would be no one left
>running the RCC.
Or little change.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:ut9cj559dsq39mg5g...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:09:35 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>No confusion here. My NSP picks up your every post. ;-)
>>
>> Yes, but your inability to comprehend is the issue at hand.
>Right... it's hard to comprehend how and why your church looked the other
>way for over 60 years while your sexually deviant priests sexually attacked
>children.
Who said they looked the other way? You don't even acknowledge the
psychological evaluation they went thru when discovered.
Parish *~
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:31:30 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:ts9cj5ddvmmjetnes...@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:40:05 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>>You sure did. You would imprison those bringing their warped actions to
>>>>light.
>>>
>>> No, my specific words were "to jail with the guilty".
>>
>>OK... let's jail all the guilty pedophile priests
>
> Great. That's ok by me. But where are the witnesses? Or are you
> suggesting
> that an accusation by a 10 year old boy is sufficient to put someone in
> jail?
When the boy can describe the priests birthmarks and genitals.... and
describe what the priest did. And the priest admits it.... that's proof
enough for 99.9% of society.
SNIPPO!
Been through all you BS trying to minimize the sexual abuse of hundreds of
innocent children.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making money."
Parish *~
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:33:52 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:ut9cj559dsq39mg5g...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:09:35 -0600, "Parish *~"
>>>>> <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>No confusion here. My NSP picks up your every post. ;-)
>>>
>>> Yes, but your inability to comprehend is the issue at hand.
>
>>Right... it's hard to comprehend how and why your church looked the other
>>way for over 60 years while your sexually deviant priests sexually
>>attacked
>>children.
>
> Who said they looked the other way?
They admitted they looked the other way.
>You don't even acknowledge the
> psychological evaluation they went thru when discovered.
The damage was already done to many thousands of children worldwide. We wont
even get into the abuse of the nuns upon the young and helpless.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of brain washing."
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:edbnj5dnffbl60hjg...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:31:30 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>news:ts9cj5ddvmmjetnes...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:40:05 -0600, "Parish *~" <Par...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>You sure did. You would imprison those bringing their warped actions to
>>>>>light.
>>>>
>>>> No, my specific words were "to jail with the guilty".
>>>
>>>OK... let's jail all the guilty pedophile priests
>> Great. That's ok by me. But where are the witnesses? Or are you
>> suggesting that an accusation by a 10 year old boy is sufficient to put someone in
>> jail?
>When the boy can describe the priests birthmarks and genitals.... and
>describe what the priest did. And the priest admits it.... that's proof
>enough for 99.9% of society.
Birthmarks, etc are easy to see in public pool dressing room, for instance.
Describing what the priest allegedly did is a man's word against a child's word.
Sinful sorrow openly admitted by the priest is a different issue.
>SNIPPO!
>Been through all you BS trying to minimize the sexual abuse of hundreds of
>innocent children.
Where's the evidence?
Parish *~
Since when are small children legitimately in a Priest's dressing rooms
while the priest is NAKED? What would they be doing there? And you're
calling the priests who admitted they buggered the children liars? Why? Why
would they lie about sexually abusing the children?
>
> Sinful sorrow openly admitted by the priest is a different issue.
>
>>SNIPPO!
>
>>Been through all you BS trying to minimize the sexual abuse of hundreds of
>>innocent children.
>
> Where's the evidence?
All over Usenet under your name.
--
The Parrish *~, American-American-American.
* * * * * *
"The Mass is the most perfect form of making easy fast money."
duke
I said above like in a public pool dressing room.
> What would they be doing there? And you're
>calling the priests who admitted they buggered the children liars? Why? Why
>would they lie about sexually abusing the children?
Where did they lie?
>> Where's the evidence?
>All over Usenet under your name.
I use the JJ report.