Covenant Errors of Christians
guardian Snow
except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
to make them.
Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
their idols.
As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
covenant of Moses.
Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of
idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood.1
Footnote: 1See v.29.
Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city,
those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every
Sabbath.”
Notice that two of the ordinances Peter told the new church to keep
were dietary because Moses was read on the Sabbath. The Sabbath
indicates clearly that even after the resurrection of the Messiah we
are renewing the covenant of Moses by the Blood.
Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which
is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Christians also error in understanding the set apart spirit of our
Father which produces signs to show that one has it. Christians
wrongly go around claiming they have this spirit as if it
automatically embues every believer but this is not the case. The
Messiah was clear in that we need to ask for it:
Mar 16:17 “And these signs shall accompany the ones who believe: In My
Name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with renewed
tongues,
Mar 16:18 they shall take up snakes, and if they drink any deadly
drink it shall by no means hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick
and they shall get well.”
So we clearly see that we have a sign to identify those who truly
believe and if you look around, nobody is able to produce these
signs… think long and hard about that fact.
The next major error I’ve seen is the assumption that we are living in
the New Covenant era. Christians wrongly assume that “grace” has been
given over to the gentile nations completely and while gentiles are
being called, they aren’t answering for the most part. The call is to
keep the commandments and the faith of HaMashiach Yaheshua Messiah.
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
commands.”1 Footnote:1See Lk. 10:28, John 12:50, Rev. 22:14.
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, “Which?” And יהושע said, “ ‘You shall not
murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You
shall not bear false witness,’
Mat 19:19 ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love
your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
This is because we are being redeemed by the covenant of Moses and by
extension David, which was the promise of the Messiah to restore his
people. The New Covenant will take effect upon the return of the
Messiah and is a description of life in Paradise.
Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall
make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of
Yehuḏah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
The covenant is with Israel and Judah. The gentile nations are
grafted into this branch by means of believing the teachings of the
Messiah and if you believe, you do as he taught and keep the
commandments of the Father.
1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we guard His
commands and do what is pleasing in His sight.1 Footnote: 1Prov. 28:9,
John 9:31, Jm. 5:16.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His command, that we should believe in the Name
of His Son יהושע Messiah and love one another, as He gave us command.
1Jn 3:24 And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in
him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He
gave us.1 Footnote: 1John 14:23-24, Acts 5:32, Rom. 8:7-11, 1 John
2:5, 1 John 4:13.
Christians will wrongly debate this until the return of the Messiah to
their own detriment and the results of this wrong belief are here:
Mat 7:20 “So then, by their fruits you shall know them –
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter
into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My
Father in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we
not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and
done many mighty works in Your Name?’
Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart
from Me, you who work lawlessness!’1 Footnote: 1 See v. 15.
Do not assume that you have been given a free pass to commit yourself
to lawlessness and follow those who preach it. Until you understand
that because of our wickedness, we have all been cursed. Don’t
believe me then crack open that bible, pray for wisdom and actually
read it with a open heart.
The KJV bible is not a inspired translation but is a version that has
blended paganism into the Greek scriptures and is a faulty version.
All versions of the scriptures have removed the Sabbath after the
Messiah’s resurrection on 8 occations that are used to justify Sun day
worship using a pagan name for the Messiah that is pronounced “He
Zeus” in the Latin.
We can be certain of the fact that we don’t live in New Covenant times
by reading scriptures that describes this era like this:
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day
when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of
Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to
them,” declares יהוה.
Now first off notice, Israel and Judah broke the covenant but not our
Father. Our Father’s word remains true and the covenant of Moses is
everlasting.
Exo 31:16 ‘And the children of Yisra’ĕl shall guard the Sabbath, to
observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting
covenant.
If anybody teaches you otherwise, like the serpent in the Garden they
are calling Elohim a liar. The conditions of the new covenant make
this clear…
Jer 32:36 “And now, thus said יהוה, the Elohim of Yisra’ĕl, concerning
this city of which you say, ‘It shall be given into the hand of the
sovereign of Baḇel by the sword, and by scarcity of food, and by
pestilence’:
We were given over to the King of Babylon because we were wicked and
didn’t keep his covenant.
Jer 32:37 ‘See, I am gathering them out of all the lands where I have
driven them in My displeasure, and in My wrath, and in great rage. And
I shall bring them back to this place, and shall let them dwell in
safety.
You are being called to ‘come out of her, my people’
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from the heaven saying, “Come out
of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of
her plagues.1 Footnote: 1Jer. 51:6 & 45.
So that you can return to the truth and learn…
Jer 32:38 ‘And they shall be My people, and I shall be their Elohim.
Jer 32:39 ‘And I shall give them one heart and one way, to fear Me all
the days, for the good of them and of their children after them.
Jer 32:40 ‘And I shall make an everlasting covenant with them, that I
do not turn back from doing good to them. And I shall put My fear in
their hearts so as not to turn aside from Me.
Jer 32:41 ‘And I shall rejoice over them to do good to them, and shall
plant them in this land in truth, with all My heart and with all My
being.’
Jer 32:42 “For thus said יהוה, ‘As I have brought all this great evil
on this people, so I am bringing on them all the good that I am
speaking to them.
We need only look back to the prophets and Moses and learn from our
Father’s Torah:
Jer 31:34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and
each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I
shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”
Jer 31:35 Thus said יהוה, who gives the sun for a light by day, and
the laws of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up
the sea, and its waves roar – יהוה of hosts is His Name:
Jer 31:36 “If these laws vanish from before Me,” declares יהוה, “then
the seed of Yisra’ĕl shall also cease from being a nation before Me
forever.”
Don’t be like the thousand who will dispute this truth:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them,
lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them
from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.
One has risen.. will you hear from him? Do not assume that you have
your assurance until you have truly believed the words faith of
HaMashiach Yaheshua Messiah.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the Good News of יהושע Messiah, the Son of
Elohim.
Mar 1:2 As it has been written in the Prophets, “See, I send My
messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You,1
Footnote: 1Mal. 3:1.
Mar 1:3 a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of
יהוה, make His paths straight.’ ”1 Footnote: 1Isa. 40:3.
Start with repenting and turning back to Elohim.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
colp
wrote:
> Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
> except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
> to make them.
>
> Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
> wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
> flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
> Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
> My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
> their idols.
>
> As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
> including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
> covenant of Moses.
>
> Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of
> idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood.1
> Footnote: 1See v.29.
> Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city,
> those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every
> Sabbath.”
>
> Notice that two of the ordinances Peter told the new church to keep
> were dietary because Moses was read on the Sabbath. The Sabbath
> indicates clearly that even after the resurrection of the Messiah we
> are renewing the covenant of Moses by the Blood.
The symbolism of the wine should be understood here.
>
> Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which
> is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
The ISR mistranslation of "renewed" is unique and unsupported by the
Textus Receptus and the Peshitta.
The correct translated is "new".
>
> Christians also error in understanding the set apart spirit of our
> Father which produces signs to show that one has it. Christians
> wrongly go around claiming they have this spirit as if it
> automatically embues every believer but this is not the case. The
> Messiah was clear in that we need to ask for it:
>
> Mar 16:17 “And these signs shall accompany the ones who believe: In My
> Name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with renewed
> tongues,
> Mar 16:18 they shall take up snakes, and if they drink any deadly
> drink it shall by no means hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick
> and they shall get well.”
>
> So we clearly see that we have a sign to identify those who truly
> believe and if you look around, nobody is able to produce these
> signs… think long and hard about that fact.
>
> The next major error I’ve seen is the assumption that we are living in
> the New Covenant era.
The new covenant with the twelve tribes is the replacement for the
broken covenant. (Jeremiah 31)
> Christians wrongly assume that “grace” has been
> given over to the gentile nations completely and while gentiles are
> being called, they aren’t answering for the most part. The call is to
> keep the commandments and the faith of HaMashiach Yaheshua Messiah.
>
> Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
> except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
> commands.”1 Footnote:1See Lk. 10:28, John 12:50, Rev. 22:14.
> Mat 19:18 He said to Him, “Which?” And יהושע said, “ ‘You shall not
> murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You
> shall not bear false witness,’
> Mat 19:19 ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love
> your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
>
> This is because we are being redeemed by the covenant of Moses and by
> extension David, which was the promise of the Messiah to restore his
> people.
The Torah of the Mosaic covenant is still relevant. Redemption
involves understanding and implementing that Torah per the teachings
of Yeshua.
> The New Covenant will take effect upon the return of the
> Messiah and is a description of life in Paradise.
Your opinion. You have no scriptural proof for this.
>
> Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall
> make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of
> Yehuḏah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
>
> The covenant is with Israel and Judah. The gentile nations are
> grafted into this branch by means of believing the teachings of the
> Messiah and if you believe, you do as he taught and keep the
> commandments of the Father.
The idea of grafting is Pauline in origin and has little relevance
here.
I haven't yet seen a translation that is free from errors.
> All versions of the scriptures have removed the Sabbath after the
> Messiah’s resurrection on 8 occations that are used to justify Sun day
> worship using a pagan name for the Messiah that is pronounced “He
> Zeus” in the Latin.
>
> We can be certain of the fact that we don’t live in New Covenant times
> by reading scriptures that describes this era like this:
Why? There's nothing in the verse that talks about the new covenant.
Chuck Stamford
"guardian Snow" <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:58e98e58-40d5-4540...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
except to explain what those errors are so that people don't continue
to make them.
Eze 20:15 "And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
their idols.
As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
covenant of Moses.
Chuck:
Then why don't you go do that, Snow? The covenant of God with Israel, given
through Moses was prosperity and long life in the Promised Land on condition
of their obedience to the laws God gave Israel through Moses.
So when are you moving?
Chuck Stamford
guardian Snow
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of
Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in
their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their
Elohim, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and
each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I
shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”
We have been over this. You and I are still trying to teach others
the truth of יהוה. The Torah is not written on your heart or you
would know to keep his commandments and not pollute his Sabbath.
The scriptural proof is here:
Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand
before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand.
Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from
Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,”
declares יהוה.
Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the
men who have transgressed against Me1. For their worm shall not die,
and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all
flesh!” Footnote: 1See 24:6, 34:2-3, Ps. 110:6, Jer. 25:33.
The seed and name of Israel shall stand forever or do you call our
Father a liar? His Sabbath shall stand forever!
And how do the Gentiles fit into all this?
Isa 56:2 “Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who
lays hold on it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding
his hand from doing any evil.
Isa 56:3 “And let not the son of the foreigner who has joined himself
to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His
people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ ”
Isa 56:4 For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths,
and have chosen what pleases Me, and hold fast to My covenant:
Isa 56:5 to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place
and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an
everlasting name that is not cut off.
Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to יהוה,
to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all
who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and hold fast to My
covenant –
Hold FAST to HIS covenant.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
guardian Snow
> There is nothing about a simple "Christian cross" that is in ANY way
> a "graven image."
>
> To be a graven image, the item MUST be an IMAGE of something living.
> Angels, demons, females, males (including "the saints", any animal.
>
> Since there is nothing about a simple Christian cross that would
> include an IMAGE of a living thing, a simple cross is NOT an "image"
> that we are forbidden to bow before.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Graven \Grav"en\, p. p. of Grave, v. t.
Carved.
Graven image, an idol; an object of worship carved from
wood, stone, etc. ``Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image.'' --Ex. xx. 4.
Exo 20:4 “You do not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness
of that which is in the heavens above, or which is in the earth
beneath, or which is in the waters under the earth,
Exo 20:5 you do not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, יהוה your
Elohim am a jealous Ěl, visiting the crookedness of the fathers on the
children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exo 20:6 but showing kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and
guard My commands.
You can ignore the fact that a cross is an item that is carved from
wood or stone to your own peril but in it you are breaking the
commandment. It's your life in your hands and the choice is up to
you.
Deu 28:45 “And all these curses shall come upon you, and they shall
pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not
obey the voice of יהוה your Elohim, to guard His commands and His laws
which He commanded you.
Deu 28:46 “And they shall be upon you for a sign and for a wonder, and
on your seed, forever.
Deu 28:47 “Because you did not serve יהוה your Elohim with joy and
gladness of heart for all the plenty,
Deu 28:64 “And יהוה shall scatter you among all peoples, from one end
of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other mighty
ones, which neither you nor your fathers have known, wood and stone.
He warned you of the curse and you still refuse to acknowledge his
truth.
Deu 28:20 “יהוה sends on you the curse, the confusion, and the rebuke
in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until
you perish quickly, because of the evil of your doings by which you
have forsaken Me.
colp
How, exactly, do you think that I am doing that?
>
> The scriptural proof is here:
You'll need an actual argument in this case, not just quotations.
>
> Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand
> before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand.
> Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from
> Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,”
> declares יהוה.
> Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the
> men who have transgressed against Me1. For their worm shall not die,
> and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all
> flesh!” Footnote: 1See 24:6, 34:2-3, Ps. 110:6, Jer. 25:33.
>
> The seed and name of Israel shall stand forever or do you call our
> Father a liar?
Verse 22 says what it says. It's got nothing to do with your
allegation, other than it preceends a verse that talks about the
sabbath.
> His Sabbath shall stand forever!
So what's your point?
>
> And how do the Gentiles fit into all this?
>
> Isa 56:2 “Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who
> lays hold on it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding
> his hand from doing any evil.
> Isa 56:3 “And let not the son of the foreigner who has joined himself
> to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His
> people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ ”
> Isa 56:4 For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths,
> and have chosen what pleases Me, and hold fast to My covenant:
> Isa 56:5 to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place
> and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an
> everlasting name that is not cut off.
> Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to יהוה,
> to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all
> who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and hold fast to My
> covenant –
7: Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful
in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
[shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an
house of prayer for all people.
colp
> "guardian Snow" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
Rain in due season isn't the same as prosperity and long life.
>
> So when are you moving?
The instruction to the exiles was not to return until they were
called, so to speak.
colp
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow<phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> © 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>
> >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
> >except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
> >to make them.
>
> >Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
> >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
> >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
> >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
> >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
> >their idols.
>
> >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
> >including a cross.
>
> very basic Christian teaching.
>
> You should truly STUDY that Old Testament you so love.
>
> The Old Testament defines VERY PRECISELY what a "graven image"
> (idol) is.
Where, exactly?
>
> There is nothing about a simple "Christian cross" that is in ANY way
> a "graven image."
Denial would be expected.
>
> To be a graven image, the item MUST be an IMAGE of something living.
> Angels, demons, females, males (including "the saints", any animal.
And your evidence for this is?
guardian Snow
The Sabbath is the SIGN of the covenant of Moses. This isn't a new
teaching that I'm telling you. If you have E-sword..
Check out Rev. Clarence Larkin's Book of charts.
Look at Chart # 50 on the covenants and see if that doesn't tell you
the exact same thing I'm trying to tell you. You'll find that what
I'm telling is the same thing thats been spoken of for hundreds of
years. The New Covenant takes effect after the return and
establishment of the New Kingdom on the New Earth.
Chuck Stamford
"colp" <co...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:d7e35d38-c4bd-45b9...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her
increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall
reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and
dwell in your land safely.
6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall
make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall
the sword go through your land.
7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the
sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put
ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you,
and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my
people.
13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt,
that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your
yoke, and made you go upright.
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these
commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments,
so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror,
consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause
sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall
eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your
enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when
none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish
you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as
iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield
her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will
bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your
children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high
ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk
contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven
times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my
covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send
the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the
enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your
bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight:
and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto
me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will
chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters
shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast
your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto
desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell
therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after
you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and
ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her
sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in
your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into
their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf
shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they
shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when
none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall
eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your
enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine
away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers,
with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they
have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them
into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be
humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with
Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will
remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while
she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of
their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and
because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will
not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and
to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom
I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I
might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made
between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Lev 26:3-46 (KJV)
Wherefore ye shall do my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; and
ye shall dwell in the land in safety.
19 And the land shall yield her fruit, and ye shall eat your fill, and dwell
therein in safety. Lev 25:18-19 (KJV)
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments,
which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess
the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Deut 4:1 (KJV)
When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have
remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven
image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the
LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall
soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess
it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left
few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone,
which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be
obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware
unto them.
32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the
day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven
unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing
is, or hath been heard like it?
33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the
fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another
nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a
mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to
all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God;
there is none else beside him.
36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct
thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his
words out of the midst of the fire.
37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after
them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art,
to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this
day.
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he
is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I
command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children
after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the
LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever. Deut 4:25-40 (KJV)
Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee;
that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the
land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Deut 5:16 (KJV)
And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the
LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which
they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and
keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with
their children for ever!
30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all
the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt
teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess
it.
32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you:
ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you,
that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong
your days in the land which ye shall possess. Deut 5:28-33 (KJV)
Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the
LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land
whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his
commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son,
all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with
thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath
promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. Deut 6:1-3
(KJV)
Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the
judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and
keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant
and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also
bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy
wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine (cows), and the flocks of thy
sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female
barren among you, or among your cattle.
15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of
the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them
upon all them that hate thee.
16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall
deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou
serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee. Deut 7:11-16 (KJV)
Now, I don't know what the purpose was in you belaboring the obvious truth
that "'rain in due season' isn't the same as prosperity and long life", but
it was certainly irrelevant to my statement that the covenant of God with
Israel was for prosperity and long life in the land God promised them. For
the above texts (and this was just a sampling from the Pentateuch!) shows us
clearly that rain in due season is not all the Israelites were promised for
their continuous obedience to God's statutes, judgments, and commands.
And as for those God disbursed amoung the "heathen" for their sins, it was
their repentance that was the condition of their return and restoration,
rather than any calling by God, as can be read explicitly in the above, and
given that the "gifts and the calling of God are without repentance", which
is just another way of saying that God's calling has no intermittance to it.
And all of this means just one thing: you are yet another in a not very
exclusive club around here who speaks from ignorance, rather than knowledge
of your subject; who thinks it more important to have people know your
opinion than it is to have one that is substantively correct.
duke
>Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
>except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
>to make them.
>
>Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
>wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
>flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
>Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
>My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
>their idols.
>
>As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
>including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
>covenant of Moses.
Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
>Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of
>idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood.1
>Footnote: 1See v.29.
>Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city,
>those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every
>Sabbath.”
>Notice that two of the ordinances Peter told the new church to keep
>were dietary because Moses was read on the Sabbath. The Sabbath
>indicates clearly that even after the resurrection of the Messiah we
>are renewing the covenant of Moses by the Blood.
That's incorrect.
1 Corinthians 10:25-26 (New International Version)
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,
26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[a]
>Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which
>is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
>Christians also error in understanding the set apart spirit of our
>Father which produces signs to show that one has it. Christians
>wrongly go around claiming they have this spirit as if it
>automatically embues every believer but this is not the case. The
>Messiah was clear in that we need to ask for it:
???
>Mar 16:17 “And these signs shall accompany the ones who believe: In My
>Name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with renewed
>tongues,
>Mar 16:18 they shall take up snakes, and if they drink any deadly
>drink it shall by no means hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick
>and they shall get well.”
>So we clearly see that we have a sign to identify those who truly
>believe and if you look around, nobody is able to produce these
>signs… think long and hard about that fact.
Yes, by our fruits shall we be known - feed the hungry, heal the sick, visit
those in prison, etc.
>The next major error I’ve seen is the assumption that we are living in
>the New Covenant era. Christians wrongly assume that “grace” has been
>given over to the gentile nations completely and while gentiles are
>being called, they aren’t answering for the most part. The call is to
>keep the commandments and the faith of HaMashiach Yaheshua Messiah.
HaMashiach Yaheshua is his Jewish name. God almighty is his Christian name.
>Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
>except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
>commands.”1 Footnote:1See Lk. 10:28, John 12:50, Rev. 22:14.
>Mat 19:18 He said to Him, “Which?” And ????? said, “ ‘You shall not
>murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You
>shall not bear false witness,’
>Mat 19:19 ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love
>your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
>This is because we are being redeemed by the covenant of Moses and by
>extension David, which was the promise of the Messiah to restore his
>people. The New Covenant will take effect upon the return of the
>Messiah and is a description of life in Paradise.
Heb 8:13 says God has made the first one old. Forgiveness of sin, v12, is
already in effect.
>Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares ????, “when I shall
>make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’?l and with the house of
>Yehud?ah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
>The covenant is with Israel and Judah. The gentile nations are
>grafted into this branch by means of believing the teachings of the
>Messiah and if you believe, you do as he taught and keep the
>commandments of the Father.
The new covenant is with all nations, not just Israel and Judah.
>1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we guard His
>commands and do what is pleasing in His sight.1 Footnote: 1Prov. 28:9,
>John 9:31, Jm. 5:16.
>1Jn 3:23 And this is His command, that we should believe in the Name
>of His Son ????? Messiah and love one another, as He gave us command.
>1Jn 3:24 And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in
>him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He
>gave us.1 Footnote: 1John 14:23-24, Acts 5:32, Rom. 8:7-11, 1 John
>2:5, 1 John 4:13.
>Christians will wrongly debate this until the return of the Messiah to
>their own detriment and the results of this wrong belief are here:
>Mat 7:20 “So then, by their fruits you shall know them –
>Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter
>into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My
>Father in the heavens.
>Mat 7:22 “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we
>not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and
>done many mighty works in Your Name?’
>Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart
>from Me, you who work lawlessness!’1 Footnote: 1 See v. 15.
>Do not assume that you have been given a free pass to commit yourself
>to lawlessness and follow those who preach it. Until you understand
>that because of our wickedness, we have all been cursed.
Clean up our acts, repent of our sins, and follow Christ in service to mankind
is our new covenant.
The sacrament of confession is the key. John 20:22-23.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
>x-no-archive: yes
>On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
><phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> © 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
>>except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
>>to make them.
>>
>>Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
>>wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
>>flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
>>Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
>>My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
>>their idols.
>>
>>As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
>>including a cross.
>
> ^ ^ ^ ^^ ????? For a "Christian", you are unbelievably ignorant of
>very basic Christian teaching.
>
> You should truly STUDY that Old Testament you so love.
>
> The Old Testament defines VERY PRECISELY what a "graven image"
>(idol) is.
>
> There is nothing about a simple "Christian cross" that is in ANY way
>a "graven image."
>
> To be a graven image, the item MUST be an IMAGE of something living.
>Angels, demons, females, males (including "the saints", any animal.
Wrong as usual, jw. A graven image is an image that is worshipped. Check your
dictionary.
walksalone
flatter himself into thinking that he really is a scholar™, self-
proclaimed scholar™, made his confusion public for the amusement of the
audience.
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bibles
tudy,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion.christian.baptist Subject:
Re: Covenant Errors of Christians Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700
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> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
> <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
>>except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
>>to make them.
>>
>>Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
>>wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
>>flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
>>Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
>>My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
>>their idols.
>>
>>As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
>>including a cross.
>
> ^ ^ ^ ^^ ????? For a "Christian", you are unbelievably ignorant of
> very basic Christian teaching.
Almost as ignorant as you. Let the audience notice that the following
errors made by jonnie are simply repetitions from prior statements of
error. & these as well, without being stated, are simply his opinion.
Unfounded and ill-informed opinion at that.
> You should truly STUDY that Old Testament you so love.
Just because you cannot, does not mean anyone else cannot.
> The Old Testament defines VERY PRECISELY what a "graven image"
> (idol) is.
In your definition is not even close. An idol is indicative of the
physical presence of a god. Had you studied the Hebrew Bible in context,
you would know these things. Or should that be, if you can study the
Hebrew Bible in context?
> There is nothing about a simple "Christian cross" that is in ANY way
> a "graven image."
It most certainly is, it's an iconographic representation of the god
himself. It's meant to be a euphemism, a symbolic euphemism for the god
himself. But then, with your limited education, the symbolism eludes
you.
> To be a graven image, the item MUST be an IMAGE of something living.
> Angels, demons, females, males (including "the saints", any animal.
By your special definition/interpolation, and is not supported by the
Hebrew Bible. Of course, your pride in your ignorance does not stop you
from proclaiming such as the case.
A graven image is not required to be based on the image to anything
living.
> Since there is nothing about a simple Christian cross that would
> include an IMAGE of a living thing, a simple cross is NOT an "image"
> that we are forbidden to bow before.
Again, you failed to point out that this is based on your ill-informed
and unfounded opinion. And yes, you are certainly forbidden to bow down
to any xian cross. But you are not forbidden to bow before or in the
presence of any such cross.
> I can't imagine a greater privilege that the RIGHT of the American
> Christian to bow before the cross in a Christian church and pray to
> our Heavenly Father.
Well, you do have a limited imagination until your mythology gets
involved. But you realize, you contradicted yourself. In one place you
say you're forbidden to bow before a cross, followed immediately by a
sentence that says it is a privilege to do so.
> We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
>>covenant of Moses.
>
> ^ ^ ^^ ^ Nope. Jesus Himself said that was not necessary.
Again the audience may notice, this is his ill-informed and unfounded
opinion that is not so declared. No where in Scripture, or the Greek
Testament, is the Sabbath suspended for the convenience of xians. That
particular dogma only came into existence with the assumption of power
over the churches by Constantine and the Council of Nicaea[Sp?].
which wannabe this time jonnie, the individual who forgets it is better
to keep his mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove
all doubt? Would that be another piece of advice from your mother that
you ignore because you don't believe it applies to you? It does.
walksalone who will never understand how Jonnie came to the erroneous
conclusion that he was a scholar™ of the xian mythology when he does not
even understand the basics.
0ts8vuolo9qs1v2sa...@4ax.com Mon, 09 Dec 2002
I guess I missed your point again. The group knows why I'm here; this
is MY group! You're the interloper, you heretic!
Unless you want to explain, just be aware that you're being scored!
I've asked God to give your sorry, heretic ass to me, and I'm counting
on it!
John W
guardian Snow
> john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>news:ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.coma continuing attempt to
> flatter himself into thinking that he really is a scholar™, self-
> proclaimed scholar™, made his confusion public for the amusement of the
> audience.
>
> From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bibles
> tudy,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion.christian.baptist Subject:
> Re: Covenant Errors of Christians Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700
> Message-ID: <ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.com>
> References:
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You know "walksalone" it's a shame your not a believer because you
show remarkable understanding of the scriptures. At least, I got the
impression that you aren't a believer by the way you spoke to John.
You touched on every issue in a way that shows a depth of
understanding the scripture far beyond what many others put forward
and I feel compelled to ask what it is you do believe, with respect of
course.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I don't understand the history
behind why you spoke to John in such a fashion also.. I've had a few
uncomfortable run ins with him but I choose to at least attempt to
rise above petty squabbles. Maybe you can explain why several people
have such a strong distaste for him.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
It is odd but agitation or contest of any kind gives a rebound to my
spirits and sets me up for a time.
Chuck Stamford
"walksalone" <spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9AE5563...@62.141.42.83...
Your history is atrocious, and your spelling lucky. In the first few
decades of the Church's existence, it is probably true that the days were
observed differently in different cities and assemblies, with the converted
Jews continuing to observe the weekly sabbath for the most part, and the
mixed and Gentile congregations gathering on the first day of the week for
the most part. There was probably no hard and fast "rule" as to either,
except as pushed by a small but influential class of Jewish Christians who
also pushed for Gentile converts to be circumcised and be bound to obey the
Law of Moses.
However, the record of the Council of Jerusalem, presided over by James and
various apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church, found in Acts 15,
informs us this Jewish party within the larger Church did not prevail, and
the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem, and indeed the entire nation of
Israel ca. 70 ad ended completely this Jewish party's influence over the
traditions of the new Church. Whatever was left of it was utterly ruined in
90 ad, at the council of Jamnah, were the opening prayer for Jewish public
worship was changed to include a cursing of all who held to the Christian
faith.
So there is PLENTY of historical evidence to support that weekly sabbath
keeping disappeared very quickly in the Christian church; probably as early
as ca. 90 ad. There is NO historical data to support the wild speculation
that it was not until ca. 325 ad, over 200 years later (!), that observance
of the weekly sabbath was put aside by the Church.
>
>
> which wannabe this time jonnie, the individual who forgets it is better
> to keep his mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove
> all doubt? Would that be another piece of advice from your mother that
> you ignore because you don't believe it applies to you? It does.
>
> walksalone who will never understand how Jonnie came to the erroneous
> conclusion that he was a scholar™ of the xian mythology when he does not
> even understand the basics.
I don't know enough about iconography to say one way or the other whether
John is wrong as to what constitutes a "graven image" under the Mosaic Law
itself (as opposed to how it may have come to be interpreted over a period
of hundreds of years), but I do know this: the same God who gave the command
through Moses also instructed Moses to have an image of a snake placed on a
pole, so that when the people, having been bitten by poisionous serpents as
a punishment for their sins, looked upon the serpent in faith, believing
that by so doing they would be saved from death by the serpents' bites, they
would be. Further, God instructed Moses after the event in the desert, to
place the icon in the ark of the covenant, along with the mana, and the
tablets of the law.
Now I'm sure biblical antagonists will jump at the chance here to cry
"contradiction", but for those of us who are not such, it seems this gives
us a plausible definition of what is and isn't considered by God to be a
"graven image". For certainly the ark itself was venerated at the level of
"worship" within the community if we go by outward appearances, by the very
community God had forbidden to worship any "graven images", and the Ark
contained the graven tablets and the graven serpent's image on the pole.
So the distinction, I would suggest, isn't in outward appearances the
faithful present to observers in their worship, but rather is in how the
icon is perceived in the hearts of those faithful. For example, the
Israelities, as they looked on that serpent, I'm sure didn't believe it was
the image of the serpent that healed them, or that it was some "serpent god"
existing in or beyond the image who did. They believed it was Jehovah God
who healed them, and that they were exercising faith in Him, and Him alone,
when they obeyed His word and looked.
Therefore, I would conclude that John is incorrect in making the distinction
all about whether or not the "graven image" is of something living. I don't
think that's correct. But I also don't think you are correct in your
apparently uninformed view of the history of the early Church.
vernono
"guardian Snow" <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:58e98e58-40d5-4540...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
except to explain what those errors are so that people don't continue
to make them.
CHRISTIAN doctrine is exact and has ZERO errors.
False doctrine is not Christian
You don't know this because you are not a Christian and deny Jesus as the
Christ.
Although the bible is complete, ALL you need to know is in the book of John
or even First John.
Another complete Gospel is Luke and Hebrews (both written by Luke.)
Jesus called your kind "Generation of snakes". The closes MODERN equivalent
translation would be "Sons of Bitches".
vernono
"Chuck Stamford" <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:A3Uhk.7092$CY7....@newsfe06.iad...
vernono
(PLONK) to the non- Christian (antiChrist AKA ASS.
duke
>>> The Old Testament defines VERY PRECISELY what a "graven image"
>>>(idol) is.
>
>>> There is nothing about a simple "Christian cross" that is in ANY way
>>>a "graven image."
>>> To be a graven image, the item MUST be an IMAGE of something living.
>>>Angels, demons, females, males (including "the saints", any animal.
>>Wrong as usual, jw.
> You are wrong AGAIN, duke.
> As I've told you MANY times, I don't take my beliefs from
>dictionaries.
> Dictionaries are compiled by MEN, as was your catechism.
As was your bible.
> I take my beliefs from the Bible.
Yeah, written and compiled by men.
>>A graven image is an image that is worshipped. Check your
>>dictionary.
> AGAIN, I don't take my beliefs from a dictionary. I take my
>beliefs from the Bible.
> And I don't worship crosses.
> I worship God.
> You should truly find some place to park OTHER than the Baptist
>group.
That's where I find the most grievous errors and ignorance of Holy Scrip.
guardian Snow
> "walksalone" <spamstop...@nerdshack.com> wrote in message> >news:ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.coma continuing attempt to
> > flatter himself into thinking that he really is a scholar™, self-
> > proclaimed scholar™, made his confusion public for the amusement of the
> > audience.
>
> > From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
> > Newsgroups:
> > alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bibles
> > tudy,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion.christian.baptist Subject:
> > Re: Covenant Errors of Christians Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700
> > Message-ID: <ic4g8496lm8jnf0oderkaf3fbrb6qp8...@4ax.com>
> > References:
> > <58e98e58-40d5-4540-90df-f5a9e1af0...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>
> > X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> > Lines: 254
> > Organization: Qwest Communications Corporation
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 9137f43c.news.qwest.net
> > X-Trace:
> > DXC=B1jCReTV:`;Jb6SFhTb5X8F85SKJoGf>4h7@UQ2WKBH1gRiX5Ran0@;SkXT\\;jgJ:3o<
Brilliant post Chuck. You really made me think and I'm grateful that
you shared this thought with me. Your thoughts made me think long and
hard and so that you know, I didn't see any contradiction myself.
Num 21:4 And they departed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Sea of
Reeds, to go around the land of Eḏom. But the being of the people
grew impatient because of the way.
Num 21:5 And the people spoke against Elohim and against Mosheh, “Why
have you brought us up out of Mitsrayim to die in the wilderness? For
there is no food and no water, and our being loathes this light
bread.”
Num 21:6 And יהוה sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit
the people. And many of the people of Yisra’ĕl died.
It should be a lesson for us in patience and that our Father will do
everything in his time. How hard it must have been for those people,
wandering in the desert, having to look upon the very image of the
thing that was destroying them.
Num 21:8 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on
a pole. And it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at
it, shall live.”
Num 21:9 So Mosheh made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole. And it
came to be, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the
bronze serpent, he lived.
I found this to be a very interesting story given the serpent in the
garden and the fact that our Messiah was put on a pole. It was the
serpent or the pole that saved the people... isn't that the lesson we
are to take from it in the deeper and more spiritual sense?
Joh 4:23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true
worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the
Father also does seek such to worship Him.
Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth.”
Joh 4:25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming, the
One who is called Anointed. When that One comes, He shall announce to
us all.”
Joh 4:26 יהושע said to her, “I who am speaking to you am He.”
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
He who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged
justly?
Lord Byron
Exo 34:5 And יהוה came down in the cloud and stood with him there, and
proclaimed the Name, יהוה.
Exo 34:6 And יהוה passed before him and proclaimed, “יהוה, יהוה, an Ěl
compassionate and showing favour, patient, and great in kindness and
truth,
Exo 34:7 watching over kindness for thousands, forgiving crookedness
and transgression and sin, but by no means leaving unpunished1,
visiting the crookedness of the fathers upon the children and the
children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.” Footnote:
1This is confirmed in Num. 14:18, and in Jer. 30:11.
colp
> "guardian Snow" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>
> news:58e98e58-40d5-4540...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
> except to explain what those errors are so that people don't continue
> to make them.
>
> CHRISTIAN doctrine is exact and has ZERO errors.
If contradictions and vanity don't count as errors.
The contradiction between "faith alone is necessary for salvation" and
"faith without works is dead" is pretty clear, as is the contradiction
between "love of man makes the law" and "love and deity before love of
man makes the law".
colp
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>
> >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
> >except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
> >to make them.
>
> >Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
> >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
> >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
> >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
> >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
> >their idols.
>
> >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
> >including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
> >covenant of Moses.
>
> Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
So what about the statues of the corpus, Mary, etc...
http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/christ/main.html
http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/mary/main.html
http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/saints/main.html
http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/angels/main.html
guardian Snow
> On Jul 24, 11:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>
> > <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
> > >except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
> > >to make them.
>
> > >Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
> > >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
> > >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
> > >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
> > >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
> > >their idols.
>
> > >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
> > >including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
> > >covenant of Moses.
>
> > Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
>
> So what about the statues of the corpus, Mary, etc...
Did you notice that even though I didn't specifically mention any
particular branch of the Church, my dear friend Duke chimed in and
almost guiltily made that claim? It is my personal belief that if a
Church wants to have a cross as identification, they should have it
outside the church.
I always find it disturbing personally when these statues are placed
in the main area of focus during worship, around the alter or
pulpits. The Catholic Church has even more hidden paganism then most
denominations. One of the more disturbing is the design of St.
Peter's Square has that monument at the center that looks like
Washington Monument. So many different mythologies have been inserted
into the Hebrew religion.
Washington Monument is another interesting piece of work. From the
ground to the top it's 6660 inches tall. Thats 555 Feet tall. An
interesting fact is that when the Masons built it, they put %20 of it
underground. That means from the foundation to the tip it's 666 Feet
tall.
You have to wonder what kind of mathematic forethought went into that
design.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
Chuck Stamford
"john w @yahoo.com>" <j<no> wrote in message
news:v0gh84l21nle19okk...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:34:21 -0700, "Chuck Stamford"
> <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote:
> Š 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>news:Xns9AE5563...@62.141.42.83...
>>> john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
>>> news:ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.com a continuing attempt to
>>> proclaimed scholarT, made his confusion public for the amusement of the
> guardian snow, as he is encouraging and complimenting walks on his
> "knowledge of scripture." GS doesn't have a "knowledge of scripture,
> yet he marvels at how walks is SHREDDING the Bible!
I'm not just addressing "walksalone" in my response, but his/her argument
for anyone who happens to read my post. People can weigh the relative
substance in each and come to their own conclusons.
>
>
>
> Whatever was left of it was utterly ruined in
>>90 ad, at the council of Jamnah, were the opening prayer for Jewish public
>>worship was changed to include a cursing of all who held to the Christian
>>faith.
>>
>>So there is PLENTY of historical evidence to support that weekly sabbath
>>keeping disappeared very quickly in the Christian church; probably as
>>early
>>as ca. 90 ad. There is NO historical data to support the wild speculation
>>that it was not until ca. 325 ad, over 200 years later (!), that
>>observance
>>of the weekly sabbath was put aside by the Church.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> which wannabe this time jonnie, the individual who forgets it is better
>>> to keep his mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove
>>> all doubt? Would that be another piece of advice from your mother that
>>> you ignore because you don't believe it applies to you? It does.
>>>
>>> walksalone who will never understand how Jonnie came to the erroneous
>>> conclusion that he was a scholarT of the xian mythology when he does not
Chuck Stamford
On Jul 25, 2:34 am, "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net> wrote:
> "walksalone" <spamstop...@nerdshack.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9AE5563...@62.141.42.83...
>
>
>
> > john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
> >news:ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.coma continuing attempt to
> > proclaimed scholarT, made his confusion public for the amusement of the
Reeds, to go around the land of Ed_om. But the being of the people
grew impatient because of the way.
Num 21:5 And the people spoke against Elohim and against Mosheh, "Why
have you brought us up out of Mitsrayim to die in the wilderness? For
there is no food and no water, and our being loathes this light
bread."
Num 21:6 And ???? sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit
the people. And many of the people of Yisra'el died.
It should be a lesson for us in patience and that our Father will do
everything in his time. How hard it must have been for those people,
wandering in the desert, having to look upon the very image of the
thing that was destroying them.
Num 21:8 And ???? said to Mosheh, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on
a pole. And it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at
it, shall live."
Num 21:9 So Mosheh made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole. And it
came to be, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the
bronze serpent, he lived.
I found this to be a very interesting story given the serpent in the
garden and the fact that our Messiah was put on a pole. It was the
serpent or the pole that saved the people... isn't that the lesson we
are to take from it in the deeper and more spiritual sense?
Chuck:
I think we are given the lesson in the New Testament:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son
of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God. John 3:14-18 (KJV)
Jesus seems to me to be telling us that the serpent placed on the pole is a
"type" of Himself; an omen (non-verbal prophecy) concerning His ministry on
the earth.
Snow:
Joh 4:23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true
worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the
Father also does seek such to worship Him.
Joh 4:24 "Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth."
Joh 4:25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming, the
One who is called Anointed. When that One comes, He shall announce to
us all."
Joh 4:26 ????? said to her, "I who am speaking to you am He."
Shalom,
*ดจ)
ธ..ด ธ..*ดจ) ธ..*จ)
(ธ..ด (ธ.. (Snow(.ธ..*ดจ)
He who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged
justly?
Lord Byron
Exo 34:5 And ???? came down in the cloud and stood with him there, and
proclaimed the Name, ????.
Exo 34:6 And ???? passed before him and proclaimed, "????, ????, an El
Chuck Stamford
"vernono" <ver...@there.com> wrote in message
news:lT3ik.3535$ue....@fe089.usenetserver.com...
Believe me, I understand that completely, and have for over 25 years now.
Jesus is the rest of God; the completion of God's creation, and it's
ultimate purpose. I don't think Snow understands that though. He rejects
the idea that those who have Jesus abiding in their hearts, have the
"sabbath" within them every day of the week, and that having this glorious
gift of God's rest within makes running back to the Mosaic Law, with its
weekly sabbaths that were only a foreshadowing of the reality that was to
come, an insult of lack of faith in God's gift of His only-begotten Son.
You may as well spit on the cross as proclaim there is no salvation without
observing the weekly sabbaths. I just wish someone could get this through
to Snow.
vernono
Absolutely agree.
Although I think there is a "work" or "demonstration" that we can or should
do. That is to pick a day every week that we dedicate to Jesus' (God's)
will and purpose.
Sunday might be an example for most of us where and when we worship and
study and sing praises with others.
guardian Snow
for we have spoken against יהוה and against you. Pray to יהוה to take
away the serpents from us.” So Mosheh prayed on behalf of the people.
Num 21:8 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on
a pole. And it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at
it, shall live.”
Num 21:9 So Mosheh made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole. And it
came to be, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the
bronze serpent, he lived.
> I found this to be a very interesting story given the serpent in the
> garden and the fact that our Messiah was put on a pole. It wasn't the
> serpent or the pole that saved the people... isn't that the lesson we
> are to take from it in the deeper and more spiritual sense?
>
> Chuck:
>
> I think we are given the lesson in the New Testament:
>
> And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son
> of man be lifted up:
> 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
> 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
> the world through him might be saved.
> 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
> condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
> begotten Son of God. John 3:14-18 (KJV)
>
> Jesus seems to me to be telling us that the serpent placed on the pole is a
> "type" of Himself; an omen (non-verbal prophecy) concerning His ministry on
> the earth.
What I did find iconic was that the serpent represents sin in
scriptures or that creature that brought sin into the world. What it
said to me is that as they looked upon their own sins on that pole, it
was Elohim that saved them because they repented. It's a very
humbling act to have to see the your own sin and affliction up on that
pole.
It wasn't the death, it wasn't the pole or the cross, it was the
spiritual aspect of that act that I believe this story is trying to
convey.
Num 21:6 And יהוה sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit
the people. And many of the people of Yisra’ĕl died.
As sin moves among the people, we die because of it. So often when I
consider the journey of those people in the desert, I think we should
be happy with our blessings.
Thanks again for sharing that.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing
left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Chuck Stamford
I agree that we, as children of our Father in heaven, assemble together on a
regular basis, and we are warned not to "foresake" this in living out our
Christian lives.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who
promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of
some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day
approaching. Heb 10:23-25
However, I think the New Testament stress is put upon this assembly being
more for our own spiritual well-being, than as some special testimony to the
glory of God. I'm not saying it's not also a grand testimony to God's
glory, just that it is our fellowship with one another in the Lord that is
the primary reason for the assembling of ourselves together in public
worship.
I don't know about your church, but in mine I don't think it would be an
exaggeration to say as much if not more actual ministry occurs in the lobby
to the main sanctuary and the parking lot just after and just before
services, than does in the services themselves! For that is where the
actual one on one ministry within the Body happens, and where the real hands
on building up of the Church occurs. I'm not putting down our pastor, who
is a wonderful, Spirit-filled man, I'm just saying...know what I mean?
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
"guardian Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:15281227-7c3a-4682...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
Num 21:7 Then the people came to Mosheh, and said, "We have sinned,
away the serpents from us." So Mosheh prayed on behalf of the people.
Chuck:
I think you're exactly right in your analysis of the serpent, except that in
Scripture a serpent isn't always symbolic of sin or the devil, so we can't
just automatically conclude that it is every time we see a serpent mentioned
in Scripture. Like everything else, we have to take it for what the author
means it to be where he uses it.
Snow:
It wasn't the death, it wasn't the pole or the cross, it was the
spiritual aspect of that act that I believe this story is trying to
convey.
Num 21:6 And ???? sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit
the people. And many of the people of Yisra'el died.
As sin moves among the people, we die because of it. So often when I
consider the journey of those people in the desert, I think we should
be happy with our blessings.
Chuck:
I think the idea is that
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being
witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and
on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in
Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to
demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed
over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be
just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26
Thanks again for sharing that.
Shalom,
*ดจ)
ธ..ด ธ..*ดจ) ธ..*จ)
(ธ..ด (ธ.. (Snow(.ธ..*ดจ)
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing
vernono
SOOO right.
> I'm not saying it's not also a grand testimony to God's glory, just that
> it is our fellowship with one another in the Lord that is the primary
> reason for the assembling of ourselves together in public worship.
>
> I don't know about your church, but in mine I don't think it would be an
> exaggeration to say as much if not more actual ministry occurs in the
> lobby to the main sanctuary and the parking lot just after and just before
> services, than does in the services themselves! For that is where the
> actual one on one ministry within the Body happens, and where the real
> hands on building up of the Church occurs. I'm not putting down our
> pastor, who is a wonderful, Spirit-filled man, I'm just saying...know what
> I mean?
>
> Chuck Stamford
>
Sermons are O.K.
My church has interactive pre- service discussions, Sunday Evening
discussions and Wed evening discussions.
I'm not an official leader in any of these but it sure does the heart good
to have one or more people come to me and ask if I would go to lunch with
them and explain deeper some subject. Once in a while my wife and I will
have a group over to our house for afternoon or evening dinner other than
Sunday or Wed. with the specified intent to discuss something from
scripture and how we can LIVE it. People, God's people, are hungry.for His
word. Of course Baptists are always hungry, period.
We have hymnals that I bought on sale and an organ. Someone, not me, can
always play.
The big thing is that the quiet ones finally open up.
Don't get me wrong, these meetings are seldom.
colp
> "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:UG9ik.3591$LF2....@newsfe09.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "vernono" <vern...@there.com> wrote in message
> >news:lT3ik.3535$ue....@fe089.usenetserver.com...
>
> >> "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >>news:A3Uhk.7092$CY7....@newsfe06.iad...
>
> >>> "guardian Snow" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
Sunday, as the Lord's day, would be appropriate for Christianity's
association with Baal and Sol Invictus.
Chuck Stamford
How could I get you wrong? One such meeting a week is good, several would
be better if they didn't become a burden upon your marriage or home life.
The idea is ministry being done in the Body of Christ. If that takes the
form of a discussion, then fine. If it takes the form of manifestations of
the gifts of the Spirit, then fine. If it simply takes the form of everyone
helping a brother fix his roof, then that's equally fine. It doesn't matter
the form, it is the Spirit being in it that makes it minsitry, and God has
prepared us all for the ministry to which He has called us.
God bless
Chuck Stamford
"colp" <co...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:146a2a90-7a9b-4af6...@r35g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
You don't know what you are talking about.
Chuck Stamford
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:47:26 -0700, "Chuck Stamford"
> like each other that you wouldn't take my point of view for the time
> of day.
>
> I thought you MIGHT set aside "petty differences" to focus on two
> people who actually don't seem capable of "weighing the relative
> substance..." much less of "coming to their own conclusions."
>
> AGAIN, "sorry I bothered."
John, you misunderstand me. There was nothing personal meant in what I
said. I just don't direct my remarks at people generally, but at their
claims, evidence, and arguments where those things tend to be hostile to the
faith once delivered to the saints. Besides, Snow and I have already been
around the block a few times, and he knows (if he remembers, that is) I
don't consider him a Christian. I don't consider anyone a Christian who
believes keeping the Jewish weekly sabbath is mandatory for salvation, and
with Snow, that's just the beginning of his non-Christian doctrines.
I don't particularly like you or dislike you, John, but I do find you
difficult to talk to without inadvertently arousing your ire, which is why
I've pretty much stopped. We're obviously not going to agree on everything,
and if I can't discuss our disagreements with you without gettting you
angry, then it's not worth it.
guardian Snow
> Besides, Snow and I have already been
> around the block a few times, and he knows (if he remembers, that is) I
> don't consider him a Christian. I don't consider anyone a Christian who
> believes keeping the Jewish weekly sabbath is mandatory for salvation, and
> with Snow, that's just the beginning of his non-Christian doctrines.
>
> I don't particularly like you or dislike you, John, but I do find you
> difficult to talk to without inadvertently arousing your ire, which is why
> I've pretty much stopped. We're obviously not going to agree on everything,
> and if I can't discuss our disagreements with you without gettting you
> angry, then it's not worth it.
So true Chuck and the good thing is that even if we disagree on
doctrine, we still behave in a fashion that reflects the good
character of our beliefs. I don't attempt to say that I am
"Christian" because the truth is I'm a Messianic Nazarene. It's my
belief that the Messiah was Hebrew and his religion was the Old
Testament that he preached with a deeper understanding and
clarification.
I believe in forgiveness of sins by the Blood of the Lamb of Elohim
and all the beliefs preached in the Good News and the confirmed
Apostles of the Messiah. I don't even take issue with James, Jude,
Luke and I admire Peter. I've come to see the message of the
missionary Paul as contradictory and so I consider his wisdom as
filled with leaven that the Messiah spoke of.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His taught ones,
“Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone
called ‘a brother,’ if he is one who whores, or greedy of gain, or an
idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler – not even to eat
with such a one.
The bottom line is I'd rather be saved then be labeled a Christian.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
walksalone
Got out his old 45 rpm record, got it to play by sticking his nose in the
groove and commenced to hum along to his favorite tune. The tune, it's
my potty and I will cry if I want to. Desiring even more attention, he
commenced to post the following to the group. Why he bothered is not
understood.
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian.baptist
Subject: Re: Covenant Errors of Christians
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:46:10 -0700
Message-ID: <pjfh84ltn6fv9cchp...@4ax.com>
References: <58e98e58-40d5-4540-90df-f5a9e1af0cf6
@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com> <ic4g8496lm8jnf0oderkaf3fbrb6qp82qf@
4ax.com> <Xns9AE5563...@62.141.42.83> <b2ece945-6acb-43cc-804e-
2fc334...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>
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X-Complaints-To: ne...@qwest.net
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:53:28 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
> <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>On Jul 24, 11:28 pm, walksalone <spamstop...@nerdshack.com> wrote:
>>> <j<no>@yahoo.com>news:ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.coma
>>> continuing attempt to flatter himself into thinking that he really
>>> is a scholar™, self- proclaimed scholar™, made his confusion public
>>> for the amusement of the audience.
>>> From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
>>> Newsgroups:
>>> alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bi
>>> bles tudy,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion.christian.baptist
>>> Subject: Re: Covenant Errors of Christians Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008
>>> 22:27:24 -0700 Message-ID:
>>> <ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.com> References:
>>> <58e98e58-40d5-4540-90df-f5a9e1af0...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>
>>> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0
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>>> Organization: Qwest Communications Corporation
>>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 9137f43c.news.qwest.net
>>> X-Trace:
>>> DXC=B1jCReTV:`;Jb6SFhTb5X8F85SKJoGf>4h7@UQ2WKBH1gRiX5Ran0@;SkXT\\;jgJ
>>> :3o< SQQiQGT3AQg9KTE_57=IWAhLb37Lh1 X-Complaints-To: n...@qwest.net
>>> > x-no-archive: yes
>>> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>>> > <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
snip
>>> > There is nothing about a simple "Christian cross" that is in ANY
>>> > way
>>> > a "graven image."
>>>
>>> It most certainly is, it's an iconographic representation of the god
>>> himself. It's meant to be a euphemism, a symbolic euphemism for the
>>> god himself. But then, with your limited education, the symbolism
>>> eludes you.
>>>
>>> > To be a graven image, the item MUST be an IMAGE of something
>>> > living.
>>> > Angels, demons, females, males (including "the saints", any
>>> > animal.
>>>
>>> By your special definition/interpolation, and is not supported by
>>> the Hebrew Bible. Of course, your pride in your ignorance does not
>>> stop you from proclaiming such as the case.
>>>
>>> A graven image is not required to be based on the image to anything
>>> living.
>>>
>>> > Since there is nothing about a simple Christian cross that would
>>> > include an IMAGE of a living thing, a simple cross is NOT an
>>> > "image" that we are forbidden to bow before.
>>>
>>> Again, you failed to point out that this is based on your
>>> ill-informed and unfounded opinion.
>
> Unlike your opinions, which are based on men's vain imaginings, my
> view comes directly from scripture.
No, your opinions do not come from scripture. Your opinions come from
your version of scripture which is not synonymous with what has been
written. This is inclusive of not only the Greek Testament but the
Hebrew Bible.
> And yes, you are certainly forbidden to bow down
>>> to any xian cross.
>
> Do you have verse for that?
The same verse you have, the difference being, I understand it. I can
read in context and you can not.
> no, you don't.
Easy to say, now provide the evidence or shut up. Not take pride in
cases of mine all™ and if you can within the next 20 years, call someone
that cares. Cares as much is the group does not.
> You are LYING through your teeth, as usual.
Then establish that as a fact, after all, nobody calls me John D.
Weatherly.
> But you are not forbidden to bow before or in the
>>> presence of any such cross.
>
> ^ ^ ^ ^^ I know that. Unless the "cross" bears the image of a
> man. (crucifix). Even if the image is "supposed to be" the image of
> the dying Jesus, it is the image of a man, and it's forbidden.
You accidentally got something correct. And even then the proviso is not
to let near. For it is an idol. An idol as understood by the people
that wrote your mythology.
As a side note, when was the crucifix changed from a sheep to a man?
>>> > I can't imagine a greater privilege that the RIGHT of the
>>> > American
>>> > Christian to bow before the cross in a Christian church and pray
>>> > to our Heavenly Father.
>>>
>>> Well, you do have a limited imagination until your mythology gets
>>> involved.
>
> Spare me your rhetoric, atheist.
Excuse me, are you saying I have granted your the right to tell me:
A: What to do.
B: When to. do it.
C: Cater to your whims?
If so, as usual you are lying. But then again, you were given three ways
to avoid my direct attention, & you choose not to use them.
> But you realize, you contradicted yourself. In one place you
>>> say you're forbidden to bow before a cross, followed immediately by
>>> a sentence that says it is a privilege to do so.
>>>
>>> > We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
>>> >>covenant of Moses.
>>>
>>> > ^ ^ ^^ ^ Nope. Jesus Himself said that was not necessary.
>>>
>>> Again the audience may notice, this is his ill-informed and
>>> unfounded opinion that is not so declared. No where in Scripture,
>>> or the Greek Testament, is the Sabbath suspended for the convenience
>>> of xians. That particular dogma only came into existence with the
>>> assumption of power over the churches by Constantine and the Council
>>> of Nicaea[Sp?].
>>
>>You know "walksalone" it's a shame your not a believer because you
>>show remarkable understanding of the scriptures.
Piggy backing, GS is in the abyss.
Anyone can learn, but it is not easy for the easily led.
> ^ ^ ^ ^ That's funny, GS, because YOU don't show a remarkable grasp
> of scripture! So how could you say that walks does?
Compared to you, everyone has a remarkable grasp of the Greek Testaments
& Hebrew Bibble.
> You are the blind complimenting the blind!
At least she can be civil on occasion, which makes her a better person
than you.
> At least, I got the
>>impression that you aren't a believer by the way you spoke to John.
>>You touched on every issue in a way that shows a depth of
>>understanding the scripture far beyond what many others put forward
>>and I feel compelled to ask what it is you do believe, with respect of
>>course.
Piggybacking continued.
I am atheist, to include the gods you are not atheist to. I am here. I
will be gone. It's what I do & any legacy I leave behind that will be
[may it not be so] immortality.
> Oh, my gosh!
>
> You are bordering on being a heretic, GS!
Nothing heretical about asking someone what they believe, but then,
that's simply another thing you're proudly ignorant of.
> You have NO knowledge of the Bible, but you compliment walks on
> his!
Let the audience notice that jonnie is attempting to imply a familiarity
with me that he knows he can never have. Those that know me well enough
to use a diminutive of the name are far to decent to be slurred buy
exposure to his company, especially his implication that he is good
enough to be their, or my equal.
Now, back your farce of a claim up, or continue in your self appointed
role of queen lair.
which wannabe this time baby jonnie, the clabber headed individual that
presumes to tell those that know the subject that they don't? & then
expects them to agree with a known liar who presents all the zero
evidence it has to back its mouth?
> LOL!!!
Yes, the senile are easy to amuse, & unlike them, you must laugh at your
own self proclaimed funnies.
walksalone who is not shocked that jonnie wants everyone to accept him as
the scholar & all around xian that he obviously is not. The surprise
comes in realising it's been over 7 years & he still expects what is not
going to happen.
Then, rather than providing the help or information requested, which
obviously walks doesn't have, he spends the entire post pouring his
venom on me.
jw 19 Apr 2003
duke
>On Jul 24, 11:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>>
>> <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
>> >except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
>> >to make them.
>>
>> >Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
>> >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
>> >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
>> >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
>> >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
>> >their idols.
>>
>> >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
>> >including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
>> >covenant of Moses.
>>
>> Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
>
>So what about the statues of the corpus, Mary, etc...
We neither bow to nor worship these items.
These are images/figurines, but they are not graven, which means worshipped or
idolized.
>http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/christ/main.html
>http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/mary/main.html
>http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/saints/main.html
>http://www.marianland.com/orlandi/angels/main.html
duke, American-American
duke
wrote:
>On Jul 25, 9:28 am, colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
>> On Jul 24, 11:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>>
>> > <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> > >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
>> > >except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
>> > >to make them.
>>
>> > >Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
>> > >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
>> > >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
>> > >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
>> > >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
>> > >their idols.
>>
>> > >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
>> > >including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
>> > >covenant of Moses.
>>
>> > Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
>>
>> So what about the statues of the corpus, Mary, etc...
>Did you notice that even though I didn't specifically mention any
>particular branch of the Church, my dear friend Duke chimed in and
>almost guiltily made that claim? It is my personal belief that if a
>Church wants to have a cross as identification, they should have it
>outside the church.
Snow, it's an old, old issue and a popular item of discussion. Many peoples
consider a statue of Mary or Jesus on the cross as graven, but it isn't unless
the "statue of" itself is worshipped, and we Catholics don't worship any
images/figurines.
>I always find it disturbing personally when these statues are placed
>in the main area of focus during worship, around the alter or
>pulpits. The Catholic Church has even more hidden paganism then most
>denominations.
It's only an issue to those that don't understand.
> One of the more disturbing is the design of St.
>Peter's Square has that monument at the center that looks like
>Washington Monument. So many different mythologies have been inserted
>into the Hebrew religion.
>Washington Monument is another interesting piece of work. From the
>ground to the top it's 6660 inches tall. Thats 555 Feet tall. An
>interesting fact is that when the Masons built it, they put %20 of it
>underground. That means from the foundation to the tip it's 666 Feet
>tall.
>You have to wonder what kind of mathematic forethought went into that
>design.
Religious, as well as the dollar bill. Check some of those out. Pyramids,
eyes, etc.
guardian Snow
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:28:53 -0700 (PDT), colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
> >On Jul 24, 11:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>
> >> <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
> >> >except to explain what those errors are so that people don’t continue
> >> >to make them.
>
> >> >Eze 20:15 “And I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
> >> >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
> >> >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
> >> >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
> >> >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
> >> >their idols.
>
> >> >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
> >> >including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
> >> >covenant of Moses.
>
> >> Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
>
> >So what about the statues of the corpus, Mary, etc...
>
> We neither bow to nor worship these items.
>
> These are images/figurines, but they are not graven, which means worshipped or
> idolized.
I find it fascinating that you now speak for the entire Catholic
Church Pope Duke. About time we got an American in the office... You
do realize that "graven" means carved. It's where we get the word
engraved.
So... The command is this:
Exo 20:4 “You do not make for yourself a carved image,
Thats part one... Carved images little Catholic churches and they are
usually at the front of the church either one the side or behind the
pulpit.
"or any likeness of that which is in the heavens above, "
The Messiah is in the heavens along with Mary and all the "saint's"
spirits.
"or which is in the earth beneath,"
At some point the saints died and the physical body was put in a grave
"in the earth".
"or which is in the waters under the earth,"
I regularly see fish symbols in all Catholic churchs, so this is a no
brainer. I believe you use to push those fish symbols as part of your
sign off too.
"Exo 20:5 you do not bow down to them"
I have regularly seen Catholics go and pray before the statue of Mary
on pilgramages and we see this all the time where some magical
property is attached to a Mary statue and people flock to go and bow
and pray before the statue.
"nor serve them. For I, יהוה your Elohim am a jealous Ěl, visiting the
crookedness of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth
generations of those who hate Me,"
So while it's fair to say that YOU don't serve these carved images,
other people do Duke and this is a wrong practice by the
commandments... but ... since you don't need to keep the commandments
by your own admission and for that matter none of the Pauline
Christian churches do... you can pay lip service and "know" your
"salvation" is assured by Apostle Paul... but not the Messiah or
Elohim the Father. Personally, I disagree with the practice and
believe the scriptures.
guardian Snow
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:07:23 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au>
Know all about it. Thought you could tell by the amount of detail I
just put down about Washington Monument. Freemasonry is a very
interesting religion and I've studied them for years now.
One of my favorite symbols is the Pentagram designed into Washington
D.C. with the Headquarters for Freemasonry 13 blocks away from the
white house... a lot of interesting numbers tied to all that...
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Keḏorlaʽomer, and in the thirteenth
year they rebelled.
Most people don't understand the whole 13 colonies, 13 stars idea of
America... Life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness.
Jer 34:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto
me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to
his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD,
to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make
you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jonathan Schattke
> Catholics don't worship any images/figurines.
Ah, but you pray to saints and the (at one time) virgin Mary, right?
You ask these beings for help and succor and favors? And when you
pray, you do kneel down, right? You pray on your knees?
vernono
Yep, he doesn't have a clue that Saturday and Sabbath are not synonymous.
Also, every seven years there was a day set aside and that moved Saturday
one day. So today's Saturday has no relation to the seventh day of then.
He is more interested in misspelling Jesus' name.
he he he he he he.
vernono
"Jonathan Schattke" <wiz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:674fe27b-eff1-4d28...@a21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
To be omnipresent (hear prayer) an entity would be a God.
Chuck Stamford
Well, not for Christians, at any rate. They're certainly equivalent for
Jews in the sense that Saturday is the seventh day of the week and so is the
weekly sabbath.
In any case, he is interested in drawing a connection between the
celebration of Sol Invictus and Christian worship on Sunday ("Baal" is a
hopelessly general term that is entirely useless in any argument concerning
a specific connection or lack thereof). It's an old and thoroughly refuted
argument, but that never seems to inhibit a certain type from using it ad
nauseum. They think they've "won" when people who know better get tired of
repeating themselves in demonstrating the gapping flaws in their arguments.
> Also, every seven years there was a day set aside and that moved Saturday
> one day. So today's Saturday has no relation to the seventh day of then.
Actually, that's not quite correct. There was no additional day of the week
"set aside" for the observance of the Sabbath Year (or Jubliee either). No
week by Jewish reckoning ever contained 8 days. They did, however, have
several "sabbaths" that didn't fall on the seventh day of the week, and the
one you're thinking about would have been one of them. You may want to have
a look around this site to see what I'm talking about, paying particular
attention to that secton labeled "Times".
This is a reliable online source for information about Judaism past and
present. It's worth the time it takes to investigate it.
Something I learned from this site was that the beginning of the Jewish year
in ancient times depended entirely upon when the High Priest said it did!
It was he, and he alone who determined which years would have an extra
month, and which would not, and that part of his determination was based on
how the festival sabbaths (Passover, Tabernacles, Firstfruits, etc.) would
or wouldn't fall in the weekly sabbaths, the idea being to,wherever
possible, avoid having two sabbaths fall on the same day. However, as you
might suspect, that wasn't always possible by simply delaying the start of
the new year by one month, and so occasionally two sabbaths (one weekly, the
other annual) did fall on the same day.
duke
wrote:
>On Jul 25, 6:48 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Catholics don't worship any images/figurines.
>Ah, but you pray to saints and the (at one time) virgin Mary, right?
ONly to those that the Holy Spirit as teacher and counselor has advised that
they are in heaven now.
>You ask these beings for help and succor and favors? And when you
>pray, you do kneel down, right? You pray on your knees?
Not necessarily. Besides, the only thing they can provide is to pray alongside
us to God.
duke
Only in protest_er land. You don't have any saints, do you.
Heeheeheeheehee.
vernono
Correct, no eighth day. There were days skipped not counted. (High Sabbath)
That is part of the confusion of Jesus 3 days and three nights in the grave.
At the time they used a Roman calendar. The High Sabbath was between Monday
and Thursday (no two Sabbaths on consecutive days.)
Between the Romans, Egyptians and Jews, we don't even know what year it is.
Then we have Greek and Roman (Latin) names for days (of their gods).
Now remember that we MUST worship Saturn every Seven Days. I hope you
remember to bow to Saturn at sun down today..
Chuck Stamford
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:07:05 -0700, "Chuck Stamford"
> <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote:
> © 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <j<no> wrote in message
>>news:9coi84hqihfpt6kms...@4ax.com...
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:47:26 -0700, "Chuck Stamford"
>>> <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>>
>>>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <j<no> wrote in message
>>>>news:v0gh84l21nle19okk...@4ax.com...
>>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:34:21 -0700, "Chuck Stamford"
>>>>> <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote:
> would never address an atheist (walks) with any degree of respect.
> Perhaps that's my downfall.
I wouldn't put it in terms of a "downfall", but clearly we are all loved by
God and created by Him, and on that basis alone are all deserving of a
certain baseline respect.
> Returning his loathing.
> I also don't address snow (who pretends to be a Christian, while he
> rejects the most basic theology)
> with any respect.
Fyi, Snow just responded to me in this thread telling me he didn't think of
himself as a "Christian", but claims to be a "Messianic Nazarene", whatever
he thinks that amounts to. I haven't had a chance to explore that with him
as much as I'd like.
> That's me. That is perhaps my shortcoming. A verse comes to mind:
> "Let others see Jesus in you." I admit having a problem with that,
> which is why I am probably MUCH better with dealing with people in
> person. Words on a computer screen don't convey the same "warm
> fuzzies" a face does.
That's certainly true. However, it does have an offsetting virtue in that
we have a better opportunity to weigh our words before we send them out.
There's been many a time I've spent an hour on a post, venting my
frustration or anger at someone, only to, on second thought, deleting the
whole thing.
Responding in writing gives us all a much better chance to get our emotions
out of what we have to say.
>
>>
>>I don't particularly like you or dislike you, John,
>
> Glad to hear that. I was not liking you; now I think I may have
> mis-judged you. And you seem to be taking a more mature approach /
> attitude than many (most in here).
>
> but I do find you
>>difficult to talk to without inadvertently arousing your ire, which is why
>>I've pretty much stopped.
>
> Sorry about that. You'd have to get to know me better, and there's
> certainly no reason in THIS world that you would feel inclined to.
>
> I think here is a good place for me to say, "Sorry that I offended
> you in any way." I frankly don't even recall what our "tiff" was
> about; couldn't have been that important.
I can't either, which makes it just that much more troubling for me.
However, I never thought of the problem between us in terms of either one
needing to ask for forgiveness, and I certainly never thought you had
anything to apologize for. It was just a misunderstanding, and they're
generally no one's fault.
>
> I'll forgive you (offending me whether intended or not) if you'll
> forgive me being a total jerk occasionally. (probably more often than
> that)
>
> Try to remember (as I do) that we call the same Yeshua Ben Joseph
> "Lord and Master." Feeble as my attempts are, I still strive daily to
> "measure up to His standard."
>
> (not to over-dramatize) I will never bow to ANY man, even with a gun
> to my head (been there), but I humbly bow daily at His Feet.
It's no problem, John, and I know we are brothers in Christ. I don't
necessarily view our differences as your problem, but as those things which
God can use as we let Him, for His own purposes.
> We're obviously not going to agree on everything,
>>and if I can't discuss our disagreements with you without gettting you
>>angry, then it's not worth it.
>
> Agreed. We just need to learn to communicate. If you can try to not
> be condescending, I would try to be respectful in return.
How do I find out how much you know about what I'm talking about without
sounding condescending to you? You tell me, and I'll try to do it that way.
>
> I'm open to "giving things another chance" if you are.
Always.
>
> You'll find me very knowledgeable, but you are probably much MORE
> knowledgeable.
>
> The advantage I MAY have on you is the theologians (scholars) I've
> studied with.
John, with you or anyone else in here, it's not who knows more than
interests me. After all, a person can know a great deal about an argument
that is at its foundations fallacious. In fact, I just posted a new post
about an exchange between two philosophers; Patrick Grim, arguing that
omniscience is logically impossible, and Alvin Plantinga, arguing Grim's
argument is fallacious at it root. Now both "know" a great deal more than I
do, but it was very easy for me to see that Plantinga simply destroyed
Grim's argument; took it apart brick by brick.
So I see my talent, if you want to call it that, as having the ability to
"see" where a real logical connection exists between two or more
propositions, and where one is simply alleged, but doesn't. To do that all
I really need as a knowledge base is knowing what the two propositions under
consideration actually are.
>
> Again I ask your forgiveness for any harsh words, including the last
> post I posted to you.
And again, it's no problem. I never actually took offense from anything you
said, and only stopped posting replies to you so as not to pick at the
wound, so to speak. In any case, I'm a wretched sinner saved only by the
grace of God through faith in His Son, just like you, and I happen to
believe sinners not only CAN'T offend one another in any way having to do
with real righteousness, but that even if they can, it's only God they need
as for forgiveness.
>
>
> God bless!
>
> john w
And the Lord continue to bless you as well
Chuck Stamford
walksalone
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.christnet.christia
nlife
Subject: Re: Covenant Errors of Christians
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:17:41 -0700
Message-ID: <9coi84hqihfpt6kms...@4ax.com>
References: <58e98e58-40d5-4540-90df-f5a9e1af0cf6
@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com> <ic4g8496lm8jnf0oderkaf3fbrb6qp82qf@
4ax.com> <Xns9AE5563...@62.141.42.83> <ka2ik.43518$NU3.28080
@newsfe01.iad> <v0gh84l21nle19okk...@4ax.com> <Co9ik.3097
$LF2....@newsfe09.iad>
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> x-no-archive: yes
snip
>>I'm not just addressing "walksalone" in my response, but his/her
>>argument for anyone who happens to read my post. People can weigh the
>>relative substance in each and come to their own conclusons.
>
> Fine! I should have known since you and I decided that we don't
> like each other that you wouldn't take my point of view for the time
> of day.
What, you mean he won't suck up to you in return to you sucking up to him?
> I thought you MIGHT set aside "petty differences" to focus on two
> people who actually don't seem capable of "weighing the relative
> substance..." much less of "coming to their own conclusions."
Just because you do not understand the Hebrew Bible does not mean no one
else does. Those of us that do, accept it for what it is, two creation
stories. Not 1, 2. Of course, your understanding of the Hebrew Bible and
the culture that formulated it, is so shallow you will never understand
why that had to be. This is not speculation on my part, this is a
conclusion supported by the evidence you have provided regarding your
ignorance of not only the Hebrew Bible, but the history surrounding it.
> AGAIN, "sorry I bothered."
Well, not everyone will automatically return your suck up efforts. Some
have to be coaxed. And with Vera no longer in your stable, you need a
replacement for the fan club.
snip
which wannabe this time johnnie, the one that assumes that anybody who
responds to something said by one of his so-called enemies, must be on his
side?
walksalone, who finds it rather comical, Jonny thought somebody would do
his fighting for him, and of course, made another erroneous assumption.
Bible and "mythology"
The Bible is true because we find truth in it.
We don't find any lies or distortions.
WE find prophesies that have been fulifilled. Prophesies that refer to
events
that have
occurred within the lives of people who are alive today.
I have seen fulfillments of prophesy, as have others.
If you are truly seeking, ask me.
I won't waste my energy writing about stuff no one is truly interested in
reading.
j
john_se...@hotmail.com
walksalone
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.christnet.christian
life
Subject: Re: Covenant Errors of Christians
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:48:40 -0700
Message-ID: <v0gh84l21nle19okk...@4ax.com>
References: <58e98e58-40d5-4540-90df-f5a9e1af0cf6
@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com> <ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.com>
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X-Complaints-To: ne...@qwest.net
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:34:21 -0700, "Chuck Stamford"
> <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote:
> © 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>"walksalone" <spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote in message
>>news:Xns9AE5563...@62.141.42.83...
>>> john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
>>> news:ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.com a continuing attempt
>>> to flatter himself into thinking that he really is a scholar™, self-
>>> proclaimed scholar™, made his confusion public for the amusement of
>>> the audience.
>>>
>>> From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
>>> Newsgroups:
>>> alt.messianic.yeshua,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bi
>>> bles tudy,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion.christian.baptist
>>> Subject: Re: Covenant Errors of Christians Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008
>>> 22:27:24 -0700 Message-ID:
>>> <ic4g8496lm8jnf0od...@4ax.com> References:
>>> <58e98e58-40d5-4540...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>
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>>> Organization: Qwest Communications Corporation
>>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 9137f43c.news.qwest.net
>>> X-Trace:
>>> DXC=B1jCReTV:`;Jb6SFhTb5X8F85SKJoGf>4h7@UQ2WKBH1gRiX5Ran0@;SkXT\\;jgJ
>>> :3o< SQQiQGT3AQg9KTE_57=IWAhLb37Lh1 X-Complaints-To: ne...@qwest.net
>>>
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>>>> <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
snip
>>>>>covenant of Moses.
>>>>
>>>> ^ ^ ^^ ^ Nope. Jesus Himself said that was not necessary.
>>>
>>> Again the audience may notice, this is his ill-informed and
>>> unfounded opinion that is not so declared. No where in Scripture,
>>> or the Greek Testament, is the Sabbath suspended for the convenience
>>> of xians. That particular dogma only came into existence with the
>>> assumption of power over the churches by Constantine and the Council
>>> of Nicaea[Sp?].
Piggybacking, the other person is a full time resident of the kill file.
He has resided there since I encountered him on the alt.atheism newsgroup.
Apparently, he has not changed, so he may remain there.
>>Your history is atrocious, and your spelling lucky. In the first few
If my history is our closest, then you should be able to counter it with
factual data that indicates this. If you do not have any average and are
simply still presenting assertions and assumptions, I must presume that you
have yet to learn how to discuss the history of your mythology. As to the
spelling, I'm sorry I'm using words you are not familiar with.
>>decades of the Church's existence, it is probably true that the days
Probably does not come into it. This you would know if you had bothered to
study the formulation of the xian church. Of course, such a study is not
for those with a weak stomach.
>>were observed differently in different cities and assemblies, with the
>>converted Jews continuing to observe the weekly sabbath for the most
>>part, and the mixed and Gentile congregations gathering on the first
>>day of the week for the most part. There was probably no hard and
You are using the word probably an awful lot, now where is your supporting
documentation? Or do you assume, that just like when you are pretending to
be the man in the know on alt.atheism, your assertions and assumptions are
sufficient and everybody must accept them? They aren't, nor are they
automatically accepted on your say so. Unlike you, I hope people do check
out what I say, and once they have done that, and have a different opinion
or take on the matter, I'm perfectly willing to engage them in a civil
conversation. You however, are involving the conversation in generalities
and pretending that those generalities preclude any other possible
historical conventions.
>>fast "rule" as to either, except as pushed by a small but influential
>>class of Jewish Christians who also pushed for Gentile converts to be
>>circumcised and be bound to obey the Law of Moses.
That's not the subject of the conversation. My point was simply that at no
time did yahweh insert an exclusion for the xian mythology. To avoid the
responsibility of worshiping on the Sabbath. If they followed him. On the
other hand, if they do not follow him, he really wasn't concerned. You may
have heard of Yahweh, supposedly. He is your missing messiahs big daddy.
>>However, the record of the Council of Jerusalem, presided over by
>>James and various apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church, found
>>in Acts 15, informs us this Jewish party within the larger Church did
Nothing like a little bit of circular logic, do you have any external
information indicates that the Jerusalem church even accepted Saul? You
don't.
>>not prevail, and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem, and indeed
>>the entire nation of Israel ca. 70 ad ended completely this Jewish
>>party's influence over the traditions of the new Church.
But not over the various groupings that had already accepted their
influence. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to the
provide verifiable sources for your information. Preferably of a scholarly
nature and one is not apologetic in nature. If you can bet he is.
Otherwise you are simply another person attempting to correct what they
don't even know about. Would you care to discuss some of the missing
gospel material, such as the Acts of Paul & Thecla, or maybe you prefer the
gospel of John.
Now back to the pitiful excuse of the xian that brought the above message
to my attention by accident. From Mr. Stanford, a permanent resident of
the abiss.
> While you're addressing walks, you may want to say a word or two to
Why should he, just because you can't does not mean he should. Of course,
you're always eager to do somebody else to carry your yellow insert into
battle for you.
> guardian snow, as he is encouraging and complimenting walks on his
> "knowledge of scripture." GS doesn't have a "knowledge of scripture,
> yet he marvels at how walks is SHREDDING the Bible!
The only one that shreds the Hebrew Bible is you when you attempt to tell
everybody what it means in spite of your pretensions to be a scholar™ of
the Hebrew Bible.
> Whatever was left of it was utterly ruined in
>>90 ad, at the council of Jamnah, were the opening prayer for Jewish
>>public worship was changed to include a cursing of all who held to the
>>Christian faith.
You act as if the only xian to stick to Sabbath were the Ediomites[Sp].
They weren't, unless of course, you have a evidence to the contrary.
Assumptions like you are about to make below Mr. Stanford, are not
evidence.
>>So there is PLENTY of historical evidence to support that weekly
There is a zero evidence to support your claim. If the worst such
evidence, you would have cheerfully included it. However, there was no
Orthodox xianity until after the Council of Nicaea. A point you cheerfully
neglect and ignore. It was the Orthodox church that extinguished any
individuality among the various bishoprics, which included those with a
predominantly Jewish congregation. You were saying? Better yet, don't &
say you did. I do not suffer fools gladly, especially those that are
deliberately ignorant when the information is so readily available.
>>sabbath keeping disappeared very quickly in the Christian church;
And your evidence for this is, other than your assumption that is.
snip, I have no idea where Mr. Stanford think he's going besides, in
circles.
>>I don't know enough about iconography to say one way or the other
>>whether John is wrong as to what constitutes a "graven image" under
>>the Mosaic Law itself (as opposed to how it may have come to be
>>interpreted over a period of hundreds of years), but I do know this:
>>the same God who gave the command through Moses also instructed Moses
You're assuming your conclusions serve, I have no time for that.
>>to have an image of a snake placed on a pole, so that when the people,
An image of a god, who happens to have a name, and is also probably, the
same one as the snake in the fantastic Garden of Eden saga. And yes, the
image of the snake would have been an idol for the god would have been
presumed to have resided in it.
>>having been bitten by poisionous serpents as a punishment for their
>>sins, looked upon the serpent in faith, believing that by so doing
>>they would be saved from death by the serpents' bites, they would be.
>>Further, God instructed Moses after the event in the desert, to place
>>the icon in the ark of the covenant, along with the mana, and the
>>tablets of the law.
Which would be perfectly in keeping, had Moses existed, had the exodus
really happened, for the population would have been Canaanites.
>>Now I'm sure biblical antagonists will jump at the chance here to cry
>>"contradiction", but for those of us who are not such, it seems this
>>gives us a plausible definition of what is and isn't considered by God
>>to be a "graven image". For certainly the ark itself was venerated at
>>the level of "worship" within the community if we go by outward
>>appearances, by the very community God had forbidden to worship any
>>"graven images", and the Ark contained the graven tablets and the
>>graven serpent's image on the pole.
Is a contradiction, however, due to your mental peculiarities when your
mythologies involved, you will never understand it.
>>So the distinction, I would suggest, isn't in outward appearances the
>>faithful present to observers in their worship, but rather is in how
>>the icon is perceived in the hearts of those faithful. For example,
You are attempting to engage in special pleading, or providing a special
definition an attempt to validate your conclusions as valid in spite of no
information to support them with. It's one of the problems you always have
when you're not dealing with a true believer. They will call bullshit
every time.
>>the Israelities, as they looked on that serpent, I'm sure didn't
>>believe it was the image of the serpent that healed them, or that it
No, they believed it was a god, the god the serpent represented.
>>was some "serpent god" existing in or beyond the image who did. They
By the way, at that time there were no Israelites as used by the Hebrew
mythology and xian mythology. They were Canaanites. This is easily
verifiable, if one takes the time to do just a little bit of basic research
in archaeology. Of course, if you do that, you take a chance on losing
your faith, so I do not recommend you do it.
>>believed it was Jehovah God who healed them, and that they were
No, they did not. It is contra to the times & the cultures. This is where
xianity in particular, and the Hebrew mythology, fall flat on their face.
You are attempting to interpolate from your personal expectations of what
the ancients expected, from your understandings, and what the ancients
understood. They are not the same. You are assuming without cause, that
the Hebrew Bible is accurate, historically as well as theologically. We
know that historically, it is not accurate.
>>exercising faith in Him, and Him alone, when they obeyed His word and
>>looked.
Not at all, but you have to understand some of the history and culture
before it makes sense to you. I cannot help you with that, it requires
study and attention to detail. Much of the information that you encounter
would contradict what you assume to be correct. Of course, this is already
understood and known by people that bothered to study the region, times,
and cultures.
>>Therefore, I would conclude that John is incorrect in making the
>>distinction all about whether or not the "graven image" is of
>>something living. I don't think that's correct. But I also don't
>>think you are correct in your apparently uninformed view of the
>>history of the early Church.
At this point in time, I'm going to give you one chance, to support your
claim that I am uninformed about the history of the early church. In
general or particular. This will require information that can be verified
by independent sources, sources that are not available to you at this time
in so far as I'm aware of. For if they are, you have never quoted them
before. Now you can either provide the evidence, or be simply known as
another blowhard. Here on the Baptist newsgroup, as well as the atheist
newsgroup. The choice is yours. And with that, I bid you good day, and
hopefully goodbye. I do not intend to live forever, so therefore, the time
I have to waste with fools is limited.
walksalone who does not mind encountering people with a different point of
view, for unlike the standard Usenet xian, I do not know everything about
xianity. But I do know how to find the information, a skill not normally
encountered among the xian population on the Internet.
Let's see if Mr. Stamford can break his training and actually engage in
discussion with supporting evidence.
The door of a bigoted mind opens outwards so that the only result of the
pressure of facts upon it is to close it more snugly. -Ogden Nash, author
(1902-1971)
Chuck Stamford
And very comfortable there, thank you. It means I don't have to listen to
you whine about how I don't provide source data in support of my every
factual statement while you never provide any for yours. I really
appreciate having one less equilibrium challenged person to deal with.
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
This is interesting. What's your source for the Jews using the Roman
calendar contemporary with Jesus?
>
> Between the Romans, Egyptians and Jews, we don't even know what year it
> is.
You should ask me then. It's July, 25th, 2008 ;-)
> Then we have Greek and Roman (Latin) names for days (of their gods).
> Now remember that we MUST worship Saturn every Seven Days. I hope you
> remember to bow to Saturn at sun down today..
I'll try, but I can't promise. I'm old.
Chuck Stamford
guardian Snow
>
> © 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>
>
>
>
> >> Besides, Snow and I have already been
> >> around the block a few times, and he knows (if he remembers, that is) I
> >> don't consider him a Christian. I don't consider anyone a Christian who
> >> believes keeping the Jewish weekly sabbath is mandatory for salvation, and
> >> with Snow, that's just the beginning of his non-Christian doctrines.
>
> >> I don't particularly like you or dislike you, John, but I do find you
> >> difficult to talk to without inadvertently arousing your ire, which is why
> >> I've pretty much stopped. We're obviously not going to agree on everything,
> >> and if I can't discuss our disagreements with you without gettting you
> >> angry, then it's not worth it.
>
> >So true Chuck and the good thing is that even if we disagree on
> >doctrine, we still behave in a fashion that reflects the good
> >character of our beliefs. I don't attempt to say that I am
> >"Christian" because the truth is I'm a Messianic Nazarene. It's my
> >belief that the Messiah was Hebrew and his religion was the Old
> >Testament that he preached with a deeper understanding and
> >clarification.
>
> >I believe in forgiveness of sins by the Blood of the Lamb of Elohim
> >and all the beliefs preached in the Good News and the confirmed
> >Apostles of the Messiah. I don't even take issue with James, Jude,
> >Luke and I admire Peter. I've come to see the message of the
> >missionary Paul as contradictory and so I consider his wisdom as
> >filled with leaven that the Messiah spoke of.
>
> and 2nd century churches. The other apostles endorsed and accepted
> him.
>
> We have clear testimony that he in fact corrected Peter publicly. If
> he had not been seen to speak with all the authority of the Holy
> Spirit, Peter would not have "gotten into line." Peter accepted the
> rebuke.
You really must support your superstitions with scripture outside of
Paul. Luke told a different story in Acts and I tend to believe him.
He said Paul was sent escorted by Chosen men.
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to
send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
And that they were to preach the covenant of Moses on the Sabbath.
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled,
and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
So while you think one thing, scriptures disagree with you. I'm not
worried what MEN teach each other, I'm concerned with what scriptures
say and if they don't agree, I believe the Master, not the Pharisee we
are warned against.
Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify,
that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a
Pharisee.
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven
of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain
prophets and teachers; ...which had been brought up with Herod the
tetrarch, and Saul.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
> We also see Paul (in Acts, written by an Apostle) addressing the
> Council (ALL the Apostles Jesus appointed, with the obvious exception
> of Judas). The whole council is reported to have listened to Paul
> (who already had a reputation as a ball-of-fire preacher and church
> builder), and they WELCOMED Paul with open arms.
>
> That is not to say that his writing was. We DO know that if Paul's
> writing had been seen to be "objectionable" and "contrary", it would
> not have survived to be included in the Canon!
>
> If you don't know that, then you don't know much!
>
>
>
> >Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His taught ones,
> >“Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
>
> >1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone
> >called ‘a brother,’ if he is one who whores, or greedy of gain, or an
> >idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler – not even to eat
> >with such a one.
>
> >The bottom line is I'd rather be saved then be labeled a Christian.
>
> And you're right back to posting scripture that doesn't apply to
> the argument.
>
> Also, if you are a Christian, you ARE born again. If you are born
> again, you are a Christian. And as much as you would like us all to
> believe you,
>
> what you preach is not Christian teaching.
Chuck Stamford
"guardian Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:090c5d5c-a427-4352...@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 26, 8:11 am, john w <j<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:47:34 -0700 (PDT), guardian
> Snow<snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
Chuck:
Snow, how can you exclude Paul, when all the apostles and elders of the
Jerusalem present at the council gave to him the right hand of fellowship
and/or agreed with Paul against the Judaic sect within the Church advocating
then exactly what you do now (obedience to the Law of Moses). How can you
continue to see yourself as following the Messiah when the Church He founded
can be seen so clearly to have rejected your views about Paul's election by
Christ and subsequent ministry in the Gospel and accepted Paul's version of
events? Are you suggesting your knowledge of Paul is superior to theirs?
vernono
All dating, courts etc. were dictated by Rome.
The Jews had their day names and so called holidays and holy days, almost
like here today but then it was among themselves. Outsiders were outsiders.
There is so much confusion from Solomon on that I feel almost a collusion.
I have been the honorary head of a table in a multi table Passover
celebration. I was given the honor because of my heratage (endless trace of
scribes) and that my near ancestors didn't disavow Jews but accepted Jesus
as the Messiah. As far as this subject is concerned they gave the Jewish
year and number of days since either leaving Egypt at the sea or of first
putting foot in Israel. The number of years and the number of days didn't
match. I asked and there was no explanation other than it's been that way
for a couple thousand years.
(Boy do I wish we had the equivalent in the cellebration of the Lord's
Supper rather than simple minded wafers and grape juice.)
Chuck Stamford
Okay, I can think of a reason it would be the case that the number of years
and the number of days don't match up, but you being so honored doesn't give
me any "source" for your belief that the Romans required the Jews to use
their calendar instead of their own contemporary with Jesus. Again, what is
your source for this?
>
> (Boy do I wish we had the equivalent in the cellebration of the Lord's
> Supper rather than simple minded wafers and grape juice.)
I've also attended a Sedar, and I also found it incredibly uplifting as a
Christian, especially as its various elements, the blessings, the cup, the
hiding of the unleaven bread, etc., were explained to me by the converted
Jew who was hosting the meal. So many facets of the ritual speak of God's
nature and plan for salvation once one knows Jesus Christ.
colp
> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
being false?
1. Sunday is called the Lord's day.
2. Baal means lord.
3. Christianity substitutes 'the LORD' in place of the name of YHWH.
4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
Christianity.
5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
LORD' in reference to deity.
duke
Did Lazarus rise from the dead because he was a God?
Chuck Stamford
Thirty years as a Christian who has carefully studied his own religion.
> Can you identify anything that I said that as
> being false?
>
> 1. Sunday is called the Lord's day.
> 2. Baal means lord.
> 3. Christianity substitutes 'the LORD' in place of the name of YHWH.
> 4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
> Christianity.
> 5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
> LORD' in reference to deity.
It's not just whether or not the above propositions can be true on a stand
alone basis that makes what you're saying true or false, but how you conjoin
them. The way you do that tells me you don't know what you're talking
about.
However, there are two in the above that are false as stated, even in a
stand alone status, and those are (4) and (5), assuming in (5) you're
actually trying to say something more than just that "baal" in Hebrew means
"lord" in English.
Chuck Stamford
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:f13m845k40uliqhk6...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:23:17 -0700, "vernono" <ver...@there.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jonathan Schattke" <wiz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:674fe27b-eff1-4d28...@a21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 25, 6:48 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Catholics don't worship any images/figurines.
>>>
>>> Ah, but you pray to saints and the (at one time) virgin Mary, right?
>>> You ask these beings for help and succor and favors? And when you
>>> pray, you do kneel down, right? You pray on your knees?
>>
>>To be omnipresent (hear prayer) an entity would be a God.
>
> Did Lazarus rise from the dead because he was a God?
No, duke, because he heard God tell him to come out of his grave, and he
obeyed his Creator.
duke
wrote:
>On Jul 25, 9:42 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:28:53 -0700 (PDT), colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
>> >On Jul 24, 11:39 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT), guardian Snow
>>
>> >> <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> >> >Major errors exist in Christian doctrine. No other way to put it
>> >> >except to explain what those errors are so that people don稚 continue
>> >> >to make them.
>>
>> >> >Eze 20:15 鄭nd I Myself also lifted My hand in an oath to them in the
>> >> >wilderness, not to bring them into the land which I had given them,
>> >> >flowing with milk and honey, the splendour of all lands,
>> >> >Eze 20:16 because they rejected My right-rulings and did not walk in
>> >> >My laws, and they profaned My Sabbaths. For their heart went after
>> >> >their idols.
>>
>> >> >As Christians we should not be bowing before any graven images,
>> >> >including a cross. We need to be keeping the Sabbath and learning the
>> >> >covenant of Moses.
>>
>> >> Right, we Catholics don't bow to, nor possess, any graven images.
>>
>> >So what about the statues of the corpus, Mary, etc...
>>
>> We neither bow to nor worship these items.
>>
>> These are images/figurines, but they are not graven, which means worshipped or
>> idolized.
>I find it fascinating that you now speak for the entire Catholic
>Church Pope Duke. About time we got an American in the office... You
>do realize that "graven" means carved. It's where we get the word
>engraved.
Yet "graven image" means a carved image that is itself worshipped.
You do realize that God commanded that one that look upon an image to be healed.
Numbers 21:6-9 (New International Version)
6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many
Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke
against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away
from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is
bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on
a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake,
he lived.
And then we have the golden statues of cherubim placed on top of the ARK of the
covenant: Ex 25:10-21
So GOD himself commanded **carved** images.
>So... The command is this:
>Exo 20:4 添ou do not make for yourself a carved image,
>Thats part one... Carved images little Catholic churches and they are
>usually at the front of the church either one the side or behind the
>pulpit.
Ok, now go on.
> "or any likeness of that which is in the heavens above, "
Ok, now we can comment. At this point, NO ONE had an image to go by. The Jews
made mistake #1. They made God look like a calf. They wanted something so
beautiful that they would captivate God's attention and have him for themselves.
The next guy might have put horns on his head with red eyes and flaring nostrils
blowing smoke because he didn't know what God looked like.
>The Messiah is in the heavens along with Mary and all the "saint's"
>spirits. "or which is in the earth beneath,"
Ah, now we reach the meat of the issue. Now we know God become man has a body,
a head, two arms and legs, and walked the earth. And we con't worship such
images.
>At some point the saints died and the physical body was put in a grave
>"in the earth".
> "or which is in the waters under the earth,"
>I regularly see fish symbols in all Catholic churchs, so this is a no
>brainer. I believe you use to push those fish symbols as part of your
>sign off too.
Do what? Jesus made his apostles from fishermen to "fishers of men".
>"Exo 20:5 you do not bow down to them"
>I have regularly seen Catholics go and pray before the statue of Mary
>on pilgramages and we see this all the time where some magical
>property is attached to a Mary statue and people flock to go and bow
>and pray before the statue.
NOBODY is bowing **to** the statue. Talking to a picture of a deceased loved
one is not talking to the picture itself. And that's something ALL Catholics
know.
>So while it's fair to say that YOU don't serve these carved images,
>other people do
I can't say that a half dozen people somewhere in the world don't do what you
say, but we Catholics don't.
> Duke and this is a wrong practice by the
>commandments... but ... since you don't need to keep the commandments
>by your own admission
Very misleading comment, snow. God's 10+1 commandments are final. And God
himself said that the Levi laws are old and worn out and need replacing.
> and for that matter none of the Pauline
>Christian churches do... you can pay lip service and "know" your
>"salvation" is assured by Apostle Paul...
Why do you continue with this line when I have clearly advised you that Paul is
not God and that his letters are exactly in line with what Christ said, not my
words but those of the Chruch that Christ founded?
> but not the Messiah or
>Elohim the Father. Personally, I disagree with the practice and
>believe the scriptures.
Then you believe Paul.
duke
> Now you have to give ME a "reference" and not the trash you've been
>taught. You asked me for scripture. I gave you the book of Acts.
> There is NO record in Acts that Paul was not received with open
>arms. The Christians in Jerusalem were certainly a little afraid of
>Paul, because of his YEARS-old reputation as a Christian murderer.
> Once Paul arrived, and they questioned him, it became OBVIOUS that he
>had gone through a major life change.
> And I won't stand by idly while you malign him.
Wow. Way to go, jw.
vernono
Nothing in scripture even hints that Lazarus was other than in a state of
sleep, not heaven.
Nothing states that Lazarus could hear any other than Jesus (God). He
wasn't omnipresent.
But RCC follows only the Greek Gods renamed, including a mother of God.
Chuck Stamford
>
> "Chuck Stamford" <shell-s...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:WhEik.4984$1N1....@newsfe07.iad...
>>
>> "duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:f13m845k40uliqhk6...@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:23:17 -0700, "vernono" <ver...@there.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Jonathan Schattke" <wiz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:674fe27b-eff1-4d28...@a21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Jul 25, 6:48 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Catholics don't worship any images/figurines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, but you pray to saints and the (at one time) virgin Mary, right?
>>>>> You ask these beings for help and succor and favors? And when you
>>>>> pray, you do kneel down, right? You pray on your knees?
>>>>
>>>>To be omnipresent (hear prayer) an entity would be a God.
>>>
>>> Did Lazarus rise from the dead because he was a God?
>>
>> No, duke, because he heard God tell him to come out of his grave, and he
>> obeyed his Creator.
>>
>>
>
>
> Nothing in scripture even hints that Lazarus was other than in a state of
> sleep, not heaven.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying Scripture informs us
Lazarus was dead in the grave, or that he was not dead in the grave.
> Nothing states that Lazarus could hear any other than Jesus (God). He
> wasn't omnipresent.
> But RCC follows only the Greek Gods renamed, including a mother of God.
Do you have any examples of the RCC worshipping Greek gods? As for there
being any "mother of God" in the ancient Greek pantheon, that's certainly
news to me, and I'd like to know your source for that.
Chuck Stamford
colp
> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
>
>
<snip>
> >> >> Although I think there is a "work" or "demonstration" that we can or
> >> >> should
> >> >> do. That is to pick a day every week that we dedicate to Jesus'
> >> >> (God's)
> >> >> will and purpose.
> >> >> Sunday might be an example for most of us where and when we worship
> >> >> and
> >> >> study and sing praises with others.
>
> >> > Sunday, as the Lord's day, would be appropriate for Christianity's
> >> > association with Baal and Sol Invictus.
>
> >> You don't know what you are talking about.
> > How would you know?
>
> Thirty years as a Christian who has carefully studied his own religion.
You don't know what I know. You have not shown that anything that I
have said is untrue.
>
> > Can you identify anything that I said that as
> > being false?
>
> > 1. Sunday is called the Lord's day.
> > 2. Baal means lord.
> > 3. Christianity substitutes 'the LORD' in place of the name of YHWH.
> > 4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
> > Christianity.
> > 5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
> > LORD' in reference to deity.
>
> It's not just whether or not the above propositions can be true on a stand
> alone basis that makes what you're saying true or false, but how you conjoin
> them.
You use simple logic to do that.
> The way you do that tells me you don't know what you're talking
> about.
Does the application of simple logic make someone ignorant?
>
> However, there are two in the above that are false as stated, even in a
> stand alone status, and those are (4)
4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
Christianity:
Quoted text is from themystica.com
"Constantine may not have completely established the date of
Christmas, but what is clear is that he had considerable influence in
setting the date of December 25 as Christ's birthday."
"The choice of December 25 was probably influenced by the fact that on
this day the Romans celebrated the Mithraic feast of the Sun-god
(natalis solis invicti), and that the Saturnalia also came at this
time(Collier's Encyclopedia, CD-ROM)."
Constantine's biographer Eusebius wrote:
"…before Constantine went into battle he considered what power to
honor and rely on for protection. He contemplated weather to choose
multiple deities or to fight in the name of the single, God Almighty.
In this account, the leader chose to pursue God and prayed for his
assistance. At broad daylight he claimed to witness a magnificent and
radiant figure of a cross above the sun. Above the sign was the
inscription In hoc signo vinces "by this sign conquer". The next
morning he had his army paint their shields and carry this "sign" that
he had seen early into battle. He was confident that Christ would
deliver him. This sign was made using the Greek letters chi "X" and
rho "P" as an abbreviation for Christos, meaning Christ. In 312,
Constantine met his opponent in battle at Red Rocks, nine miles north
of Rome, surrounded by large hills and the Tiber River. Constantine's
force sent Maxentius and his army fleeing to the single Milvian Bridge
across the Tiber River where Maxentius drowned. (Laing 192)."
"Another version of the story has this same image appearing to
Constantine in a dream, and whether the tale actually ever happened
has been disputed by scholars for centuries. No matter the actual
reality of the vision, the ensuing results are certainly true:
Constantine embraced the god of the Christians, essentially legalizing
Christianity, and an underground persecuted mystery cult that was in
grave danger of dying out, suddenly found itself at the pinnacle of
the greatest nation on earth. The contribution of Constantine was
enormous, and with his assistance, the drama was set upon the stage
that continues to play until the present day. With Roman assistance
Christianity began the battle to wipe out the old pagan gods, in the
process overlaying much of earlier pre-Christian tradition,
incorporating pagan ideas and religious holidays into its own
structure, and ensuring that the sun would become the glorious figure
of Christ. Ironically, Constantine being a pragmatic Roman,
interpreted Christ as a war god, not the "prince of peace," and he
apparently never truly understood the mysteries of Christianity,
retaining his right to worship the pagan gods, especially the sun. He
never took baptism until shortly before his death."
The Roman roots of Christianity are evident in the name of the mother
church, ie the universal church of Rome, the RCC.
> and (5), assuming in (5) you're
> actually trying to say something more than just that "baal" in Hebrew means
> "lord" in English.
5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
LORD' in reference to deity.
Reference to "the Lord" is reference to power or authority, eg "House
of Lords".
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:1
Baal worship was evident in Israel before the Babylonian exile. Bel is
the Babylonian name for Baal. Rome was identified by the name of
Babylon in 1 Peter 5:13.
"Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the
observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that
this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the
empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter,
Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the
mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's
establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion
of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes
statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon,
came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the
imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one
supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as
subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed
with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in
defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own
elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)"
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/christ_constantine_sol_invictus.html
Chuck Stamford
On Jul 26, 11:54 pm, "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net> wrote:
> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
>
> news:c7bb6721-e83a-4ae1...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
<snip>
> >> >> Although I think there is a "work" or "demonstration" that we can or
> >> >> should
> >> >> do. That is to pick a day every week that we dedicate to Jesus'
> >> >> (God's)
> >> >> will and purpose.
> >> >> Sunday might be an example for most of us where and when we worship
> >> >> and
> >> >> study and sing praises with others.
>
> >> > Sunday, as the Lord's day, would be appropriate for Christianity's
> >> > association with Baal and Sol Invictus.
>
> >> You don't know what you are talking about.
> > How would you know?
>
> Thirty years as a Christian who has carefully studied his own religion.
You don't know what I know.
Chuck:
I know what you wrote, and that's all I've addressed. My statement was not
you don't know what you know, but that you don't know what you're talking
about.
colp:
You have not shown that anything that I
have said is untrue.
Chuck:
You have yet to show I need to, having not yet made any effort to support
what you're saying with any facts or evidence. And when you get around to
it, then I'll present the evidence that shows you don't know what you're
talking about.
colp:
>
> > Can you identify anything that I said that as
> > being false?
>
> > 1. Sunday is called the Lord's day.
> > 2. Baal means lord.
> > 3. Christianity substitutes 'the LORD' in place of the name of YHWH.
> > 4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
> > Christianity.
> > 5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
> > LORD' in reference to deity.
>
> It's not just whether or not the above propositions can be true on a stand
> alone basis that makes what you're saying true or false, but how you
> conjoin
> them.
You use simple logic to do that.
Chuck:
Would that you did. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> The way you do that tells me you don't know what you're talking
> about.
colp:
Does the application of simple logic make someone ignorant?
Chuck:
I saw no logic applied by you in connecting up these propositions, and you
certainly didn't present any demonstration of the "logic" you used, so I
guess this is just more of you not knowing what you're talking about.
>
> However, there are two in the above that are false as stated, even in a
> stand alone status, and those are (4)
colp:
4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
Christianity:
Quoted text is from themystica.com
"Constantine may not have completely established the date of
Christmas, but what is clear is that he had considerable influence in
setting the date of December 25 as Christ's birthday."
"The choice of December 25 was probably influenced by the fact that on
this day the Romans celebrated the Mithraic feast of the Sun-god
(natalis solis invicti), and that the Saturnalia also came at this
time(Collier's Encyclopedia, CD-ROM)."
Constantine's biographer Eusebius wrote:
"ůbefore Constantine went into battle he considered what power to
Chuck:
There are a great many problems with what you've presented above that I
won't need to address. It is enough that no where in the above, or anywhere
else, do we find any mention of Constantine being a member of the Mithraic
mystery religion or cult popular with the Roman army. There is also the
fact that "Sol Invictus" is, according to the scant evidence that actually
exists, not the sun one thinks of normally associated with pagan sun gods,
but is the "unconquered sun", or "hypercosmic sun"; the force responsible
for the observation of the ancients we know today as the "precession of
equinoxes"; that shifting of the stars in the night sky due to the slight
wobble of the earth on its rotational axis.
See here: http://www.well.com/~davidu/hypercosmic.html
And here: http://www.well.com/~davidu/mithras.html
Further, if it is so "clear" to "themystica.com" that Constantine had this
kind of influence over the Church, they must have laid out their case for
saying it, and it must have been a singularly compelling case or they
wouldn't have used the adjective "clearly" in what you provided. So where
is it? Where's they're argument for saying it?
If you'd like to view a page online that lists all the know literary sources
of the Mithraic cult, to see if you can find any referring to Constantine or
Christianity being associated with it, be my guest:
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/index.htm
The point is any pagan "sun god" believed to be associated with or
personified by the actual sun had nothing to do with Mithras, and therefore
nothing to do with any particular day of the year, and certainly NOT
December 25! The astronomic phenomenon that supplied the foundation for
Mithraic worship, at least according to the best theory current, had to do
with the precession of equinoxes, a cycle of thousands of years (you know,
the Age of the Bull, the Age of Aquairus, etc.), not the solar year.
So even if you could demonstrate from some sort of hard data that
Constantine was a member of the Mithraic cult, and that after his conversion
he continued in that cultic belief, that STILL gives you no reason to say
Sol Invictus had anything to do with December 25th or Christianity.
Finally, the choice of Dec. 25th for the celebration of Christmas was not
some monolithic decision by the Roman emperor early in the 4th cent., but a
sporatic and disjointed affair spanning several hunderds of years, and even
TODAY there are Orthodox churches who celebrate Christmas either not at all,
or on a different day. You may see various version of this history here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
So the process of the larger Church gradually settling on a specific day to
celebrate the birth of our Lord both began long before Constantine was
emperor, and continued long after he was dead. There is thus strong
evidence your claim he is closely associated with or even responsible for
the date is simply wrong. Many sources also point out that Dec. 25th was a
date on which SEVERAL pagan sun gods were celebrated, amoung them Elah-Gabal
and Sol, the god of emperor Aurelian (ca. 270-274 ad) To further complicate
things for you, it is not at all clear that Aurelian's "unconquered sun god"
is Mithras. There is no data equating the two of which I'm aware, and
Aurelians's Sol is never depicted as is Mithras in virtually every icon
there is of him, i.e. slaying a bull.
> and (5), assuming in (5) you're
> actually trying to say something more than just that "baal" in Hebrew
> means
> "lord" in English.
colp:
5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
LORD' in reference to deity.
Reference to "the Lord" is reference to power or authority, eg "House
of Lords".
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:1
Baal worship was evident in Israel before the Babylonian exile. Bel is
the Babylonian name for Baal. Rome was identified by the name of
Babylon in 1 Peter 5:13.
Chuck:
And your "logic" for associating these items together is...what? You still
haven't addressed the fact that "Baal" is a completely generic title used of
MANY gods throughout the Ancient, not some specific pagan god.
"Constantine's law ofů321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the
observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that
this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the
empireů, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter,
Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the
mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's
establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion
of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes
statues of Bel and the sunů. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon,
came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the
imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one
supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as
subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed
with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in
defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own
elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)"
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/christ_constantine_sol_invictus.html
So? Where is there any evidence here that "Baal" is anymore or less than
what I said it was - a generic ANE term for many different gods - and thus
has no significance for Christianity per se? I mean, is it your contention
that because Christians worship a "Lord God", that this is all you need as
evidence they appropriated the concept from earlier pagan religions? Please
tell me your not that far gone. It's a TITLE, "colp", a title common to
EVERY theistic or polytheistic religion there ever was in the area of the
word where Semetic languages were used. It's a phemonenon of LANGUAGE, not
religion that it's shared by all.
Chuck Stamford
colp
> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
>
> news:8cba6a16-13f5-4f60...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 26, 11:54 pm, "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net> wrote:
> 4. The cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with
> Christianity:
>
> Quoted text is from themystica.com
>
> "Constantine may not have completely established the date of
> Christmas, but what is clear is that he had considerable influence in
> setting the date of December 25 as Christ's birthday."
>
> "The choice of December 25 was probably influenced by the fact that on
> this day the Romans celebrated the Mithraic feast of the Sun-god
> (natalis solis invicti), and that the Saturnalia also came at this
> time(Collier's Encyclopedia, CD-ROM)."
>
> Constantine's biographer Eusebius wrote:
>
The loss of credibility of Christianity because of its history is not
a problem.
> It is enough that no where in the above, or anywhere
> else, do we find any mention of Constantine being a member of the Mithraic
> mystery religion or cult popular with the Roman army.
No it isn't. Mithraism is a straw man because my claims make not
mention of it.
> There is also the
> fact that "Sol Invictus" is, according to the scant evidence that actually
> exists, not the sun one thinks of normally associated with pagan sun gods,
> but is the "unconquered sun", or "hypercosmic sun"; the force responsible
> for the observation of the ancients we know today as the "precession of
> equinoxes"; that shifting of the stars in the night sky due to the slight
> wobble of the earth on its rotational axis.
I'll go with the established body of evidence which associates Sol
Invictus with the visible sun, and the fact that Sol is the Greek name
of the sun.
>
> See here:http://www.well.com/~davidu/hypercosmic.html
>
> And here:http://www.well.com/~davidu/mithras.html
>
> Further, if it is so "clear" to "themystica.com" that Constantine had this
> kind of influence over the Church, they must have laid out their case for
> saying it, and it must have been a singularly compelling case or they
> wouldn't have used the adjective "clearly" in what you provided. So where
> is it? Where's they're argument for saying it?
To have power over something is to have influence over it.
The argument for Constantine's influence over Christianity is the fact
the it became established as the state religion by his permission, and
the fact that the council of Nicea was called called by him.
>
> If you'd like to view a page online that lists all the know literary sources
> of the Mithraic cult, to see if you can find any referring to Constantine or
> Christianity being associated with it, be my guest:
>
> http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/index.htm
<snip straw man>
> So even if you could demonstrate from some sort of hard data that
> Constantine was a member of the Mithraic cult, and that after his conversion
> he continued in that cultic belief, that STILL gives you no reason to say
> Sol Invictus had anything to do with December 25th or Christianity.
It's not necessary to explain December 25 in order to show that the
cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with Christianity in
the person of Constantine.
Chuck Stamford
Chuck:
You're obviously an idiot, and proud of it, too proud to do anything about
it, so I guess we're finished here. You can lead a donkey to water, but you
can't make him drink.
Mark T
> attended both Sunday services!
The guy with the holes in his hands and feet ....... Pinocchio!
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
"Really! Try to believe even if it's bloody stupid and irrational." - Mark
17:2 (MTV)
"Why? Because I said so, that's why! Don't ask questions. Just
believe." - Mark 17:3 (MTV)
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church
Mike Painter
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:01:36 -0700 (PDT), colp <co...@solder.ath.cx>
> wrote:
> © 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
>
> I'm amazed that in my 60 years of study with some of the most
> renowned, most respected scholars on Planet Earth, this has never
> come up with ANY of them.
>
It's nice to see that John gets the same respect here that he does in other
places.
It's also noce to see how fast time flies here.
At 1:00 am John claimed, in his usual polite manner, " pppplp! (raspberry)
My 50 years trump your 30!"
Eight minutes later we find that he has spent ten years more in study.
Robibnikoff
"Mike Painter" <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:fv0jk.6721$cn7....@flpi145.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:01:36 -0700 (PDT), colp <co...@solder.ath.cx>
>> wrote:
>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>> On Jul 25, 3:28 pm, "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
> <Snip>
>>
>> I'm amazed that in my 60 years of study with some of the most
>> renowned, most respected scholars on Planet Earth, this has never
>> come up with ANY of them.
>>
>
>
> It's nice to see that John gets the same respect here that he does in
> other places.
>
> It's also noce to see how fast time flies here.
> At 1:00 am John claimed, in his usual polite manner, " pppplp!
> (raspberry) My 50 years trump your 30!"
>
> Eight minutes later we find that he has spent ten years more in study.
I'm curious as to how johnnie started studying the second he popped out of
the womb. I believe he turns(ed) 60 this year.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
If you can't be a good example....
You'll just have to be a horrible warning.
Mike Painter
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:31:47 -0700, "Mike Painter"
> <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Š 2008 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:01:36 -0700 (PDT), colp <co...@solder.ath.cx>
>>> wrote:
>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>> On Jul 25, 3:28 pm, "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
>> <Snip>
>>>
>>> I'm amazed that in my 60 years of study with some of the most
>>> renowned, most respected scholars on Planet Earth, this has never
>>> come up with ANY of them.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It's nice to see that John gets the same respect here that he does
>> in other places.
>>
>> It's also noce to see how fast time flies here.
>> At 1:00 am John claimed, in his usual polite manner, " pppplp!
>> (raspberry) My 50 years trump your 30!"
>>
>> Eight minutes later we find that he has spent ten years more in
>> study.
>
>
> Fine! 50 years! (I'm betting you never noticed that the "5" is
> right next the "6" on the keyboard.
>
> Please tell me you weren't the smart one in the litter!
I have noticed it. It's just that most people know the difference between
the two and pay attention to what they write. Especially people who claim to
be writers and are familar with the concept of proof reading.
ujb
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:31:47 -0700, "Mike Painter"
>> <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:01:36 -0700 (PDT), colp <co...@solder.ath.cx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>>> On Jul 25, 3:28 pm, "Chuck Stamford" <shell-stamf...@cox.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> "colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
>>> <Snip>
>>>> I'm amazed that in my 60 years of study with some of the most
>>>> renowned, most respected scholars on Planet Earth, this has never
>>>> come up with ANY of them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's nice to see that John gets the same respect here that he does
>>> in other places.
>>>
>>> It's also noce to see how fast time flies here.
>>> At 1:00 am John claimed, in his usual polite manner, " pppplp!
>>> (raspberry) My 50 years trump your 30!"
>>>
>>> Eight minutes later we find that he has spent ten years more in
>>> study.
>> You sure get excited over nothing.
>>
>> Fine! 50 years! (I'm betting you never noticed that the "5" is
>> right next the "6" on the keyboard.
>>
>> Please tell me you weren't the smart one in the litter!
>
> I have noticed it. It's just that most people know the difference between
> the two and pay attention to what they write. Especially people who claim to
> be writers and are familar with the concept of proof reading.
johnnie the queen liar is the same stupido 'that' wrote, "the year
Martin and Bobby were shot (1968)"
guardian Snow
> > Duke and this is a wrong practice by the
> >commandments... but ... since you don't need to keep the commandments
> >by your own admission
>
> Very misleading comment, snow. God's 10+1 commandments are final. And God
> himself said that the Levi laws are old and worn out and need replacing.
Then how do you explain not keeping the 7th day Sabbath? Elohim or
his son יהושע Messiah never said such a thing unless of course you
believe the Messiah was a puppet and needed to have missionary Paul
speak for him. The Messiah isn't like our Father, who was a spirit...
Yaheshua said that if you wish to enter into life, keep the
commandments.
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
commands.”1 Footnote:1See Lk. 10:28, John 12:50, Rev. 22:14.
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, “Which?” And יהושע said, “ ‘You shall not
murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You
shall not bear false witness,’
Mat 19:19 ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love
your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
> > and for that matter none of the Pauline
> >Christian churches do... you can pay lip service and "know" your
> >"salvation" is assured by Apostle Paul...
>
> Why do you continue with this line when I have clearly advised you that Paul is
> not God and that his letters are exactly in line with what Christ said, not my
> words but those of the Chruch that Christ founded?
I see it as sinful pride that the Christian church ignores this clear
teaching and instead follows after Paul and the no named author of
Hebrews. Just because you are entrenched in a wrong tradition doesn't
mean that you can't repent and make the choice to choose life, keep
the commandments.
Mat 15:8 ‘This people draw near to Me with their mouth, and respect Me
with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
Mat 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the
commands of men.’ ”1
It's pride thats deeply entrenched in the church. A church that
claims to follow the Messiah and pays lip service to his words while
following after the missionary writings of Pharisee Paul.
Act 26:5 since they have known me from the first, if they wish to
witness, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of
our observance.
How much clearer does it need to be? You reject the ways of Elohim to
keep the traditions of men, entrenched in your church ways, to proud
to admit you've been deceived, just as I was by a false church that
breaks the covenants and twist his words to suite a way he did not
speak of.
Deu 11:26 ‘See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
Deu 11:27 the blessing, when you obey the commands of יהוה your Elohim
which I command you today;
Deu 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commands of יהוה your
Elohim, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go
after other mighty ones which you have not known.
While you "say" they preached the same message... you blindly ignore
the entire bible outside of the writings of Paul and then claim they
are the same message...
Your claim is that the commandments written by the very finger of
Elohim are weak but the scriptures outside of Hebrews say they are
perfect and a way to life.
Psa 19:7 The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The
witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The
command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 19:9 The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-
rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether,
Psa 19:10 More desirable than gold, Than much fine gold; And sweeter
than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there
is great reward.
Argue with King David, who's throne is established forever and where
the Messiah sits and rules.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
duke
wrote:
>On Jul 26, 10:00 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> > Duke and this is a wrong practice by the
>> >commandments... but ... since you don't need to keep the commandments
>> >by your own admission
>>
>> Very misleading comment, snow. God's 10+1 commandments are final. And God
>> himself said that the Levi laws are old and worn out and need replacing.
>Then how do you explain not keeping the 7th day Sabbath? Elohim or
>his son ????? Messiah never said such a thing unless of course you
>believe the Messiah was a puppet and needed to have missionary Paul
>speak for him. The Messiah isn't like our Father, who was a spirit...
>Yaheshua said that if you wish to enter into life, keep the
>commandments.
Neither God nor the Messiah said what day the "Sabbath" is. God said he worked
for 6 days and rested on the 7th. We Christians do the same. The Son of God
rose from the dead on "Sunday" to begin the new covenant and shelve the old
covenant as old and worn out.
>Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
>except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
>commands.”1 Footnote:1See Lk. 10:28, John 12:50, Rev. 22:14.
>Mat 19:18 He said to Him, “Which?” And ????? said, “ ‘You shall not
>murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You
>shall not bear false witness,’
>Mat 19:19 ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love
>your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
>> > and for that matter none of the Pauline
>> >Christian churches do... you can pay lip service and "know" your
>> >"salvation" is assured by Apostle Paul...
>>
>> Why do you continue with this line when I have clearly advised you that Paul is
>> not God and that his letters are exactly in line with what Christ said, not my
>> words but those of the Chruch that Christ founded?
>I see it as sinful pride that the Christian church ignores this clear
>teaching and instead follows after Paul and the no named author of
>Hebrews.
Yet the people that were there in the biblical times, and the growth of
knowledge and new church fathers in the early days have confirmed the inclusion
of Paul's letters as inspired to canon scripture, and fully in accordance with
Christ's words.
Other writings from the period such as the gospels of Peter, Mary, James, etc
are not included in scripture for a number of reasons:
1. Errors
2. Already revealed in other writings.
3. Fabrications.
> Just because you are entrenched in a wrong tradition doesn't
>mean that you can't repent and make the choice to choose life, keep
>the commandments.
We Catholics definitely keep the commandments. We don't keep the Levitical
laws.
>Mat 15:8 ‘This people draw near to Me with their mouth, and respect Me
>with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
>Mat 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the
>commands of men.’ ”1
>It's pride thats deeply entrenched in the church. A church that
>claims to follow the Messiah and pays lip service to his words while
>following after the missionary writings of Pharisee Paul.
So it's very easy for me to advise you that it's your pride that refuses the new
covenant.
>Act 26:5 since they have known me from the first, if they wish to
>witness, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of
>our observance.
>How much clearer does it need to be? You reject the ways of Elohim to
>keep the traditions of men, entrenched in your church ways, to proud
>to admit you've been deceived, just as I was by a false church that
>breaks the covenants and twist his words to suite a way he did not
>speak of.
Elohim is the Jewish name for God Almighty. And we hardly ignore him or reject
his ways.
>Deu 11:26 ‘See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
>Deu 11:27 the blessing, when you obey the commands of ???? your Elohim
>which I command you today;
>Deu 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commands of ???? your
>Elohim, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go
>after other mighty ones which you have not known.
>
>While you "say" they preached the same message... you blindly ignore
>the entire bible outside of the writings of Paul and then claim they
>are the same message...
>
>Your claim is that the commandments written by the very finger of
>Elohim are weak but the scriptures outside of Hebrews say they are
>perfect and a way to life.
There are some things about the past that you don't understand, but we can say
belongs in the path God took to get us to the after-Jewish point.
1. First man sacrificed his nubile virgins to his god.
2. Then man sacrificed his first-born son to his god.
3. Then man sacrificed an unblemished animal to his God.
4. Then man sacrificed the new unblemished Lord to our God.
5. End of story.
Tell me - did anyone see God write on the stone tablets? No, but we believe.
Why do you arbitrarily drop your belief with the gospels which were written
30-60 years after Christ's ascension and which reflects the beliefs and
religious habits of the new Christian people.
>Psa 19:7 The Torah of ???? is perfect, bringing back the being; The
>witness of ???? is trustworthy, making wise the simple;
>Psa 19:8 The orders of ???? are straight, rejoicing the heart; The
>command of ???? is clear, enlightening the eyes;
>Psa 19:9 The fear of ???? is clean, standing forever; The right-
>rulings of ???? are true, They are righteous altogether,
>Psa 19:10 More desirable than gold, Than much fine gold; And sweeter
>than honey and the honeycomb.
>Psa 19:11 Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there
>is great reward.
>
>Argue with King David, who's throne is established forever and where
>the Messiah sits and rules.
Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God, not on David's throne. You see,
snow, you just choose to shut it down at a point of your own choosing.
guardian Snow
> Tell me - did anyone see God write on the stone tablets? No, but we believe.
> Why do you arbitrarily drop your belief with the gospels which were written
> 30-60 years after Christ's ascension and which reflects the beliefs and
> religious habits of the new Christian people.
If you had believed my friend you would make it your practice, just as
the Messiah and Paul did.
Luk 4:16 And He came to Natsareth, where He had been brought up. And
according to His practice, He went into the congregation on the
Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
Act 17:2 And according to his practice, Sha’ul went in unto them, and
for three Sabbaths was reasoning with them from the Scriptures,
You have forsaken this for the practice of the Pope, the Catholic
church and those who altered the text to remove the word Sabbath from
it.
(Mar 16:2) (Mar 16:9) (Luk 18:12) (Luk 24:1)
(Joh 20:1) (Joh 20:19) (Act 20:7) (1Co 16:2)
Each verse has the word removed from it and changed. You have made it
clear that you choose to sin and teach others to sin.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands,
and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens;
but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the
reign of the heavens.
It is your calling that you have stumbled.
Mat 13:41 “The Son of Aḏam shall send out His messengers, and they
shall gather out of His reign all the stumbling-blocks, and those
doing lawlessness,
LAWLESSNESS is a key word that you should come to understand. Without
the law, you are lawless and the Law is to guard the Sabbath. Know
that it is out of love that we disagree my dear brother and an issue
we shall wrestle with for a long time to come because:
Eze 20:12 “And I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign1 between
them and Me, to know that I am יהוה who sets them apart. Footnote:
1See Ex. 31:13-17.
Isa 56:2 “Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who
lays hold on it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding
his hand from doing any evil.
Isa 56:3 “And let not the son of the foreigner who has joined himself
to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His
people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ ”
Isa 56:4 For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths,
and have chosen what pleases Me, and hold fast to My covenant:
Isa 56:5 to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place
and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an
everlasting name that is not cut off.
Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to יהוה,
to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all
who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and hold fast to My
covenant –
Isa 56:7 them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them
rejoice in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their
slaughterings are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house
of prayer for all the peoples.”
Isa 56:8 The Master יהוה, who gathers the outcasts of Yisra’ĕl,
declares, “I gather still others to him besides those who are gathered
to him.”
Isa 56:9 All you beasts of the field, come to devour, all you beasts
in the forest.
Isa 56:10 His watchmen are blind, all of them, they have not known.
All of them are dumb dogs, unable to bark, dreaming, lying down,
loving to slumber.
Isa 56:11 And the dogs have a strong appetite, they never have enough.
And they are shepherds! They have not known understanding. All of them
look to their own way, every one for his own gain, from his own end,
saying,
Isa 56:12 “Come, let me bring wine and fill ourselves with strong
drink1. And tomorrow shall be as today, even much greater.” Footnote:
1See chapters 28 & 29.
I've noticed that I always refer to the scriptures... why don't you???
duke
wrote:
>I've noticed that I always refer to the scriptures... why don't you???
But you don't show why your OT verses are true and accurate, but the NT verses
in Pauls letters are not. Paul's words are in accordance with those of Jesus.
Pastor Dave
<shell-s...@cox.net> spake thusly:
>14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
>even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
>15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
>but have eternal life.
>16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
>begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
>not perish, but have everlasting life.
>17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn
>the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
>18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
>believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not
>believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>John 3:14-18 (KJV)
>
>Jesus seems to me to be telling us that the serpent placed
>on the pole is a "type" of Himself; an omen (non-verbal
>prophecy) concerning His ministry on the earth.
Yes, amen. But as far as graven images are concerned,
the people weren't worshipping the fiery serpent. With
a "Christ on the cross", it is an image of the One we worship
and therefore, I don't think it should be done. This doesn't
necessarily mean that an empty cross is a graven image,
in that we don't worship the cross. :)
--
"A doctrine of propping oneself up is a doctrine
of knocking Christ down." - Unknown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Roger Pearse
> It's not necessary to explain December 25 in order to show that the
> cult of Sol Invictus has a historical association with Christianity in
> the person of Constantine.
Um, how is Constantine associated with Sol Invictus? And, if he was
at some point so associated, how would this demonstrate that
Christianity was in some way so associated?
This all seems a bit odd, you see, so I'm not sure that I understand
you.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse
> Quoted text is from themystica.com
>
> "Constantine may not have completely established the date of
> Christmas, but what is clear is that he had considerable influence in
> setting the date of December 25 as Christ's birthday."
Is it clear? In the time of Constantine, Dec. 25 was not celebrated
as Christ's birthday, as far as I know. Christmas wasn't a state
holiday in the Roman empire, even after it was christianised, as far
as I know.
> "The choice of December 25 was probably influenced by the fact that on
> this day the Romans celebrated the Mithraic feast of the Sun-god
> (natalis solis invicti), and that the Saturnalia also came at this
> time(Collier's Encyclopedia, CD-ROM)."
I have no idea whether "Colliers encyclopedia" actually says any such
thing, or indeed why this should be an authority. But the sentence
above contains multiple mistakes.
1. Saturnalia was celebrated from 17-23rd December, not on the
25th.
2. There is no association of Mithras with 25 Dec. recorded in any
ancient source.
3. The Natalis Invicti is a state holiday on 25 Dec., recorded only
in the Chronography of 354 (which is online). It means the 'natalis'
of Sol Invictus, the late Roman state sun cult. The 'natalis' is
usually translated 'birthday' but may mean 'anniversary of the
consecration of a temple'.
4. Mithras was a private mystery cult. It had no association with
the state sun cult.
> Constantine's biographer Eusebius wrote:
>
> "…before Constantine went into battle he considered what power to
> honor and rely on for protection. He contemplated weather to choose
> multiple deities or to fight in the name of the single, God Almighty.
> In this account, the leader chose to pursue God and prayed for his
> assistance. At broad daylight he claimed to witness a magnificent and
> radiant figure of a cross above the sun. Above the sign was the
> inscription In hoc signo vinces "by this sign conquer". The next
> morning he had his army paint their shields and carry this "sign" that
> he had seen early into battle. He was confident that Christ would
> deliver him. This sign was made using the Greek letters chi "X" and
> rho "P" as an abbreviation for Christos, meaning Christ. In 312,
> Constantine met his opponent in battle at Red Rocks, nine miles north
> of Rome, surrounded by large hills and the Tiber River. Constantine's
> force sent Maxentius and his army fleeing to the single Milvian Bridge
> across the Tiber River where Maxentius drowned. (Laing 192)."
Eusebius did not write this.
> "Ironically, Constantine being a pragmatic Roman,
> interpreted Christ as a war god, not the "prince of peace," and he
> apparently never truly understood the mysteries of Christianity,
> retaining his right to worship the pagan gods, especially the sun.
What evidence is there that he practised polytheism? Indeed he seems
to have been an enthusiastic Christian, preaching sermons on Sunday to
his courtiers who used to try to find excuses to get out of it!
> He never took baptism until shortly before his death."
This was common in the 4th century and is no sign of lack of
commitment. The fact that the author of these words doesn't know this
simple and well-worn fact is not a good sign.
> The Roman roots of Christianity are evident in the name of the mother
> church, ie the universal church of Rome, the RCC.
When does this term come to be applied to the RCC?
> 5. Christianity associates with Baal by it's use of the name of 'the
> LORD' in reference to deity.
This seems rather strange. When I address Lord Sainsbury, am I
addressing Baal, then? Come, this is nonsense.
> "Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the
> observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that
> this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the
> empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter,
> Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the
> mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's
> establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion
> of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes
> statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon,
> came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the
> imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one
> supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as
> subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed
> with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in
> defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own
> elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)"
Lots of opinion in here, and no facts.