Free Gift not Works!
Paul
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the
works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
There are those even on this NG who insist that one must either in whole or
in part depend upon their own works for salvation. Some say, "Well, we must
try to obey the Ten Commandments and then perhaps God will save us." Yet
nowhere in the bible is such a heresy supported. Others simply insist that
you must cease all willful sin, and of course they are only to happy to
provide you with a lexicon of what consists of willful sin. No matter what
stripe they are of both camps always will insist that salvation follows
works of one sort or another and is earned to one degree or another. All
such claims are unbiblical and antithetical to the atonement of God.
Paul wrote to the Romans that, ".Israel, which followed after the law of
righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness." He said they
did not succeed be "Because [they pursued it] not through faith, relying
[instead] on the merit of their works [they did not depend on faith but on
what they could do]. They have stumbled over the Stumbling Stone. (Amp.)
Jesus' gift of the atonement, that He provided, galls the human pride and
belittles human effort and is an offense to the flesh. The atonement is not
acceptable to the fallen human nature which cannot please God. "So then they
that are in the flesh cannot please God" --Romans 8:8 The natural unborn
again man will always try to achieve salvation and end up stumbling over
Jesus Christ and the atonement. The natural man is ignorant of the wisdom of
God. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned."-- 1 Corinthians 2:14
Now many will try and parse what the word law means, but Paul did not make a
distinction when he used the word law. People who claim various meanings for
it do so at the whim of their bias, and not out of any special knowledge.
The biblical fact remains that if you try to pursue salvation, even in part
by works you will never achieve it. How can a gift be earned? "Now when a
man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an
obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who
justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." --Romans
4:4,5 "God who justifies the wicked!" Not the righteous, not the worker of
good works, but the wicked! Yes, my friends Jesus came and died for the
wicked, the ungodly, and the sinner. He came to give them the free gift of
eternal life. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men
to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon
all men unto justification of life. --Romans 5:18 Notice this gift came
"upon all men". So we might as well get off our high horse and get down with
the rest of humanity where the free gift is bestowed. Because Jesus
justifies the wicked, and not the righteous. "But go ye and learn what that
meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the
righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matt 9:13
Works will justify no man! Jesus is the one who gives the Gift, who
justifies who ever He chooses to; He is the one who atoned for our sins and
we cannot add to it.
Good works; the works of God are a gift from God to His saved Saints, and
never a means to be saved.
Let the forces of evil spin this Gospel, but as the Apostle wrote: "But
though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than
that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Paul
Rob
That's not what James said.
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(NASB)
Rob
James Hajicek
Romans 9
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as
it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
stumbling stone;
There are those even on this NG who insist that one must
either in whole or in part depend upon their own works for
salvation. Some say, "Well, we must try to obey the Ten
Commandments and then perhaps God will save us." Yet nowhere
in the bible is such a heresy supported.
The word "law" in Romans 9:32 does NOT refer to the Ten Commandments.
Salvation cannot be obtained by works of the Law of Moses.
Jesus said that those who want eternal life are required to keep
the Ten Commandments:
Matthew 19:17-19
17 ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 ... Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love
thy neighbour as thyself.
The apostle Paul wrote that we should keep the Ten Commandments:
Romans 13:9
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not
kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other
commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying,
namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ephesians 4:28
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him
labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that
he may have to give to him that needeth.
Ephesians 6:2
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first
commandment with promise;
The apostle Paul said, "Be not deceived" and "Mortify your members",
and then he proceeded to warn people about the kind of things which
would keep them from eternal life:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers,
nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations,
wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told
you in time past, that they which do such things shall not
inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5-7
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean
person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any
inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of
these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of
disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Colossians 3:5-6
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil
concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the
children of disobedience:
----------
Paul Tooley continued:
Others simply insist that you must cease all willful sin,
and of course they are only to happy to provide you with a
lexicon of what consists of willful sin. No matter what
stripe they are of both camps always will insist that
salvation follows works of one sort or another and is earned
to one degree or another. All such claims are unbiblical and
antithetical to the atonement of God.
The Bible says that there is no atonement for "willful sin":
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice
for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
----------
Paul Tooley continued:
Now many will try and parse what the word law means, but
Paul did not make a distinction when he used the word law.
People who claim various meanings for it do so at the whim
of their bias, and not out of any special knowledge.
Jesus said "keep the commandments". Of course anything which says
that the "law" is unnecessary or ended must refer to something else.
Paul wrote:
Romans 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law.
Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the
law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ...
The word "law" as used above may seem ambiguous to some people, but
it is clarified elsewhere exactly what was meant:
Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all
things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of
Moses.
The atonement does not come by works of the Law of Moses, namely by
animal sacrifices, but instead by faith in Jesus Christ and by Jesus'
sacrifice.
----------
Paul Tooley continued:
The biblical fact remains that if you try to pursue
salvation, even in part by works you will never achieve it.
...
There is no scripture to support that statement. Paul Tooley is
inventing a doctrine which has the effect of tempting and enticing
people to disobey God. Compare that with what the serpent did to Eve.
----------
Paul Tooley continued:
Works will justify no man! Jesus is the one who gives the
Gift, who justifies who ever He chooses to; He is the one
who atoned for our sins and we cannot add to it.
That is another invented doctrine. The Bible says the opposite:
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and
not by faith only.
----------
Paul Tooley continued:
Good works; the works of God are a gift from God to His
saved Saints, and never a means to be saved.
To the extent that salvation is a "free gift", it is has value only to
those who repent and quit sinning. Learn from the parable:
Matthew 22:11-14
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw
there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither
not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and
foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Repentance is a necessary part of salvation:
Matthew 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all
likewise perish.
Luke 13:24,27
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say
unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
...
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye
are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
2 Timothy 2:19
19 ... Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart
from iniquity.
Those who continue to sin after having been cleansed are worse off
than before:
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the
world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the
way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to
turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true
proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the
sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Do not let Paul Tooley rob you of your salvation. Many are called,
but few are chosen.
- James
Andrew
"James Hajicek" wrote:
>
> To the extent that salvation is a "free gift", it is has value only to
> those who repent and quit sinning.
One reason this is controversial is that, of ourselves it is not possible to *quit
sinning,* but only as we have a living connection with Christ is there motive
and the corresponding grace to ~live~ the principles of His Law.
Furthermore, I see that Jesus is asking much MORE of us than to just *quit
sinning.* He wants the -principles- of the law written on our hearts that our
lives may reflect the pure and holy attributes of His love which is the basis of
His Law.
The Pharisees could not understand this "written on the heart" aspect which
requires a death to self and a transformation of the old nature. Therefore, they
focused on "do's and don'ts" and judging others who didn't measure up until
finally they crucified the lawgiver Himself . . . . .and all the while maintaining
punctiliousness in the minutest matters of 'law.'
Andrew
Paul
>Works will justify no man!
>
> That's not what James said.
>
> James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith
alone.
> (NASB)
>
> Rob
As I said, "Works will justify no man."
Rob
You're contending with James - not me, because all I did was quote James. And
James also disagrees with you in the previous verses.
James 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up
Isaac his son on the altar? {22} You see that faith was working with his works,
and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (NASB)
Rob
Paul
"James Hajicek" <haj...@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:3EF883F6...@execpc.com...
> Paul Tooley wrote:
>
> Romans 9
> 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as
> it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that
> stumbling stone;
>
> There are those even on this NG who insist that one must
> either in whole or in part depend upon their own works for
> salvation. Some say, "Well, we must try to obey the Ten
> Commandments and then perhaps God will save us." Yet nowhere
> in the bible is such a heresy supported.
>
> The word "law" in Romans 9:32 does NOT refer to the Ten Commandments.
> Salvation cannot be obtained by works of the Law of Moses.
This is a whim of your bias, but is supportable by opinion only. I am
familiar with this argument, and it is made solely by those who want an
excuse for their works to merit something from God. I think the principle
is clear.
> Jesus said that those who want eternal life are required to keep
> the Ten Commandments:
>
> Matthew 19:17-19
> 17 ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
> 18 ... Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit
> adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
> witness,
> 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love
> thy neighbour as thyself.
In fact Jesus did not say that keeping the Ten Commandments were enough. He
went on to say that the man still lacked one thing. Jesus, on the other
hand, made it abundantly clear that belief in and on Him was enough for
eternal life.
> The apostle Paul wrote that we should keep the Ten Commandments:
James, why do you bring up a moot point. I believe that one should keep the
Ten-Commandments.
> Romans 13:9
> 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not
> kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
> witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other
> commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying,
> namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
This is a good message, but it is not about obtaining salvation. In fact,
you can not even understand this message unless you have been saved, , born
again, and converted then this message is full of meaning.
> Ephesians 4:28
> 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him
> labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that
> he may have to give to him that needed.
Again this is instructions to saints; new saints. It is not saying do this
and you will be saved, but instead it is saying now you can do this because
God has given you power to become His son or daughter.
> Ephesians 6:2
> 2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first
> commandment with promise;
>
> The apostle Paul said, "Be not deceived" and "Mortify your members",
> and then he proceeded to warn people about the kind of things which
> would keep them from eternal life:
>
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
> 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
> kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
> idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
> themselves with mankind,
> 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers,
> nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
James, you misunderstand. Paul is describing the natural man, the
unregenerated heart, the flesh, the fallen nature, and one should not be
deceived and think that such a one will inherit the Kingdom of God. What
Paul is NOT saying, is that if you stop doing these things you will inherit
the Kingdom of God. In fact trying to stop doing these things in order to
inherit the Kingdom of God will not make you saved, but it will make you a
big Pharisee.
It is by recognizing these failings that we then seek the Grace of Christ
which will save us through faith, and then we will be given power to change
our behavior because that is what we want to do. The difference may seem
subtle, but it is the difference between you being your own savior and
Christ being your savior.
> Galatians 5:19-21
> 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
> these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
> 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations,
> wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
> 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
> like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told
> you in time past, that they which do such things shall not
> inherit the kingdom of God.
This is a description of the natural man. It is NOT a proscription for
salvation. Killing all of the flies on a road kill will not bring it back
to life and neither would "killing" all these behaviors make you one wit
more a child of God.
> Ephesians 5:5-7
> 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean
> person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any
> inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
> 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of
> these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of
> disobedience.
> 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
All of this is good and true but Paul is talking to those who have already
received salvation. He is not preaching to the damned. You just are not
understanding.
> Colossians 3:5-6
> 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;
> fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil
> concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
> 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the
> children of disobedience:
You still have not shown that any of this is connected to salvation.
> ----------
>
> Paul Tooley continued:
>
> Others simply insist that you must cease all willful sin,
> and of course they are only to happy to provide you with a
> lexicon of what consists of willful sin. No matter what
> stripe they are of both camps always will insist that
> salvation follows works of one sort or another and is earned
> to one degree or another. All such claims are unbiblical and
> antithetical to the atonement of God.
>
> The Bible says that there is no atonement for "willful sin":
>
> Hebrews 10:26-27
> 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
> knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice
> for sins,
> 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
> indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
If you were to take this passage alone you might make a case for comitting
one willful sin and being damned by God for it. I pity you and those like
you who think God is so petty. Jesus taught forgiveness, and that we are to
forgive no matter how many times in one day someone wronged you you are to
forgive them. When we combine the teachings of John, Jesus and Hebrews we
can see that this passage is refering to those who choose to continue in
willful. It is clearly not refering to a single incident.
The Amplified Bible reads:
Hebrews 10
26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring
the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone
for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
If we were to restrict this passage to a single incident of wilful sin then
we would make a liar out of John when he wrote:
1 John 2
1MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate
God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who
will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all]
righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every
purpose, thought, and action].
2And He [ that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning
sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of]
the whole world.
> ----------
>
> Paul Tooley continued:
>
> Now many will try and parse what the word law means, but
> Paul did not make a distinction when he used the word law.
> People who claim various meanings for it do so at the whim
> of their bias, and not out of any special knowledge.
>
> Jesus said "keep the commandments". Of course anything which says
> that the "law" is unnecessary or ended must refer to something else.
Jesus only said this phrase once, and it was to the Rich Young Ruler. For
you to say that this is a teaching that we should keep the Commandments in
order to inherit eternal life is to miss the entire point Jesus was making
to the Ruler. Jesus said these words to the Rich Young Ruler so that He
could make the point that you so desperately need made to yourself, and that
is that there is much more to salvation than simply attempting to keep the
Ten Commandments.
Salvation is about God's Holiness dwelling in you and not about the letter
of the Law.
> Paul wrote:
>
> Romans 3:28
> 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
> without the deeds of the law.
>
> Galatians 2:16
> 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the
> law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ...
>
> The word "law" as used above may seem ambiguous to some people, but
> it is clarified elsewhere exactly what was meant:
You cannot tie Acts 13:39 to Romans 3:28 and Gal 2:16 except by the whim of
your biased opinion.
> Acts 13:39
> 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all
> things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of
> Moses.
>
> The atonement does not come by works of the Law of Moses, namely by
> animal sacrifices, but instead by faith in Jesus Christ and by Jesus'
> sacrifice.
>
> ----------
>
> Paul Tooley continued:
>
> The biblical fact remains that if you try to pursue
> salvation, even in part by works you will never achieve it.
> ...
>
> There is no scripture to support that statement. Paul Tooley is
> inventing a doctrine which has the effect of tempting and enticing
> people to disobey God. Compare that with what the serpent did to Eve.
No invention at all. You speak nonsense.
Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after
righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which
is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not
attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the
works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of
offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
You, James, walk around in your own sparks and deny the plain teaching of
the scriptures. You also are not telling the truth. You invent what you
think people are saying, and you do it out of thin air. The above passage
says exactly what I said.
> ----------
>
> Paul Tooley continued:
>
> Works will justify no man! Jesus is the one who gives the
> Gift, who justifies who ever He chooses to; He is the one
> who atoned for our sins and we cannot add to it.
>
> That is another invented doctrine. The Bible says the opposite:
>
> James 2:24
> 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and
> not by faith only.
No the bible does not. The bible says: "For he saith to Moses, I will have
mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will
have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:15-16
Jesus said, "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given
unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt 28-18 (Power)
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the
Son:" John 5:22 (Judgement)
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in
Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:24 (Justification)
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom we have now received the atonement." Romans 5:11 (Atonement)
"But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the
gift of Christ." Eph 4:7 (Gift)
I have supported all of the things I posted by scripture. James, you should
not accuse for "...I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come
salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his
Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them
before our God day and night."
This again supports what I have said. Your quote from James is an injustice
to the book of James, and is a shame. Read all of James, it has an
important message for you.
> ----------
>
> Paul Tooley continued:
>
> Good works; the works of God are a gift from God to His
> saved Saints, and never a means to be saved.
>
> To the extent that salvation is a "free gift", it is has value only to
> those who repent and quit sinning. Learn from the parable:
You have missed the point. Salvation as a free gift is for all men, and
must be recieved before one has the power to repent and quit sinning.
> Matthew 22:11-14
> 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw
> there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
> 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither
> not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
> 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and
> foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
> there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
How can you so misunderstand this beautiful parable. The wedding garments
were provided by the host of the wedding in those days and this man had
arrogantly refused the gifted garment. This garment represents the robe of
Christ righteousness that He gives to all men. You, James, may be the man
in this parable if you continue to ware your own filthy rag righteousness to
the feast of Christ instead of accepting His.
> Repentance is a necessary part of salvation:
Repentance is a fruit of salvation.
> Matthew 7:23
> 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
> depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
>
> Luke 13:3
> 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all
> likewise perish.
Yes, because with out repentance there was no acceptance of the free gift.
> Luke 13:24,27
> 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say
> unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
The straight gate is not works, James. Did you think that it was? Did you
think that it was keeping the Commandments? If that is what it was then all
of the Pharisee's will make it easily.
...
> 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye
> are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
>
> 2 Timothy 2:19
> 19 ... Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart
> from iniquity.
Good texts, but I have no idea who you are quoting them for.
> Those who continue to sin after having been cleansed are worse off
> than before:
>
> 2 Peter 2:20-22
> 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the
> world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus
> Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
> latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
> 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the
> way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to
> turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
> 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true
> proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the
> sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
>
> Do not let Paul Tooley rob you of your salvation. Many are called,
> but few are chosen.
No one can separate us from the Love of God, James, your religion is an
empty striving after your own righteousness. A hopeless futile attempt to
be your own savior. I do not think that you have much peace, nor do I think
that you have assurance. How do you know if your "trying" has gotten you
far enough? You do not claim to keep the Ten Commandments, but you claim to
"try". Where is that found in the bible? If you do not keep the Ten
Commandments, but only try, it means by default that you sin sometimes. If
you know you sin, and you would have to in order to realize that you are
only "trying" to keep the Ten Commandments that means that you are aware
that your actions at times constitute sin. If you are aware of this then
the sins had to be willful, else you would not be aware that they were sins.
You, sir, are in deep trouble and I don't think your God is happy with your
mere attempt at keeping the Law. You are not a doer of the Law if you are a
"tryer" of the law. And we know that only doers of the law are justified.
James, I am afraid that you damn yourself with your own religion.
Paul
Paul
"Rob" <r...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:rlmhfvgf948a3sdpi...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:13:18 GMT, "Paul" <pa...@tooley.com> wrote:
>
> ><snip>
> >
> >>Works will justify no man!
> >>
> >> That's not what James said.
> >>
> >> James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith
> >alone.
> >> (NASB)
> >>
> >> Rob
> >
> >As I said, "Works will justify no man."
>
> You're contending with James - not me, because all I did was quote James.
And
> James also disagrees with you in the previous verses.
On the contrary, I am agreeing with James.
Rob
>
>"Rob" <r...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:rlmhfvgf948a3sdpi...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:13:18 GMT, "Paul" <pa...@tooley.com> wrote:
>>
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >>Works will justify no man!
>> >>
>> >> That's not what James said.
>> >>
>> >> James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith
>> >alone.
>> >> (NASB)
>> >>
>> >> Rob
>> >
>> >As I said, "Works will justify no man."
>>
>> You're contending with James - not me, because all I did was quote James.
>And
>> James also disagrees with you in the previous verses.
>
>On the contrary, I am agreeing with James.
You wish you were, but if wishes were horses beggars would ride. The truth is,
you have a problem with what James says, and your words prove that fact.
Rob
James Hajicek
To the extent that salvation is a "free gift", it is has
value only to those who repent and quit sinning.
Andrew replied:
One reason this is controversial is that, of ourselves it is
not possible to *quit sinning,* but only as we have a
living connection with Christ is there motive and the
corresponding grace to ~live~ the principles of His Law.
As I have stated repeatedly, it is DELIBERATE sin that is not
permitted. The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ will cover
accidental and unintentional sins.
God knows what we are humanly capable of doing. God should not be
mocked by claiming that he is incapable of telling the difference
between accidental sins and deliberate ones.
For example, there is a difference between a deliberate and habitual
thief and a man who is lost in a forest, freezing and starving, who
breaks into someone's cabin to obtain food and shelter.
For example, someone might break the Sabbath on some occasion due to a
conflict between that commandment and the principle of charity. A
fireman, for example, may have no choice but to sometimes work on the
Sabbath. Someone needs to be on duty. If there are genuine
extenuating circumstances, I presume that such a sin can be easily
forgiven, especially of the person confesses to God that he is caught
in a dilemma, and replaces his lost day of rest with another day.
However, the person who says in his mind that he does not care what
God wants, but that he intends to please only himself, will be in a
more difficult situation.
Furthermore, I see that Jesus is asking much MORE of us
than to just *quit sinning.* He wants the -principles-
of the law written on our hearts that our lives may reflect
the pure and holy attributes of His love which is the basis
of His Law.
The Pharisees could not understand this "written on the
heart" aspect which requires a death to self and a
transformation of the old nature. Therefore, they focused
on "do's and don'ts" and judging others who didn't measure
up until finally they crucified the lawgiver Himself . . . .
and all the while maintaining punctiliousness in the
minutest matters of 'law.'
Andrew, there is much truth in what you say here. Yes, there is MORE
to eternal life than merely to "quit sinning". I think of salvation
as being sort of like passing the first grade in school. It is a
joyous occasion, but merely the first step of eternal life. There is
a limited amount of Biblical scripture about this. But note that not
everyone receives the same degree of glory in the resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:40-42
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the
terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the
moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth
from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. ...
In any case, one way to determine what God wants of us is to have some
measure of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to those who
OBEY God:
Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also
the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
So we should start with OBEDIENCE, and then proceed from there. Those
who reject the requirement to "quit sinning", namely those who pretend
that they are saved, but continue to deliberately sin, will certainly
be abandoned by the Holy Spirit, and left vulnerable to deceiving
spirits.
That may be what has happened to those on this newsgroup who are
teaching doctrines which have the effect of tempting and enticing
other people to disobey God. The charitable view is that they have
been deceived themselves. The severe view is that they are complete
hypocrites, and are doing it deliberately. It can be difficult to
determine which is which. But as soon as people are discovered to be
making inconsistent statements, in other words lying, it suggests that
they are deliberate deceivers rather than mere victims.
- James
Lamarr Edwards
sin" is pure baloney.
If it is a sin you commit, then you knew before you did it, it was a
sin.
Does the fact that your example subject in breaking into the cabin to
steal food is hungry make the act not a sin ? Of course not ! If he
knew that stealing is a sin, and he did it, he sinned, deliberately.
Your example re firemen working on the sabbath is particularly poor,
Christ made it clear that doing good on the sabbath is not a sin, and
firemen who work on the sabbath are not sinning.
EVERY sin is deliberate, every sin is done with the knowledge that the
act or thought is wrong.
I repeat, if you know what you do is a sin, then you deliberately sin.
The law always brings condemnation, and nowhere in the law are written
excuses, or mitigating circumstances, the law has no mercy as you
purport, you do what you know the law says you shouldn't do, you have
broken the law, your pitiful excuses count for nothing.
The law has no mercy, but Christ does, and that is why HE forgives every
truly penitent sinner, that is why we all deserve death, because the law
clearly defines us as deliberate sinners, worthy of the condemnation of
the law, and that is why HIS perfect obedience and mercy is the ONLY way
any of us can escape from our willful sin, and the resultant
condemnation of the law.
The law brings condemnation and death, Jesus Christ brings mercy and
life, in your sophistry, and in your desire to earn your salvation, you
want to play word games, russian roulette with the law, but no matter
all of your verbal gymnastics, your sins are deliberate, willful sins,
and if you trust the law to save you, you are a walking dead man.
The law is cold, direct, and clear, and no matter for how long you walk
its knifes edge, you are not perfect, and you will slip, and when you
do, you die,
unless you really trust in Christ for your salvation, and when you do,
you are sickened and morose about that slip, and you plead with Christ
for forgiveness, and being his child, he forgives you, and you are
emboldened to go forth and fight the sin in your life once again.
This is the only way, trusting in the law to save you is like going
swimming, with an anchor handcuffed to your wrist. LE
Paul
I am sorry you have chosen to disbelieve what I tell you, but because you
have there is nothing more I can say to you.
Rob
Only because there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that you
have a problem with what James says. You know that and I know that, so the
bottom line is we both know that.
Rob
Paul
My final statement: I have no problem with anything in the Bible, and
specifically I have no problem with James. I have a problem with your ego,
and you have a problem with your ego and we both know that.
Lamarr Edwards
James said.
James appears to say that works are part of justification, and Paul
says, a number of times, that justification is purely by faith, alone,
without any works being involved.
So Rob, how do you justify these seemingly opposite authorities?
How willyou spin this one ? LE
Ruth Rush
Re: Free Gift not Works!
Group: alt.religion.christian.adventist Date: Thu, Jun 26, 2003, 3:24pm
(EDT-3) From: shmo...@webtv.net (Lamarr Edwards)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I've recently heard someone say that Paul wrote to gentiles and John,
Peter and James wrote to Jews.
Ruth
Andrew
"James Hajicek" wrote:
>
> So we should start with OBEDIENCE, and then proceed from there.
This concept of starting with obedience is what the people vowed even at
the foot of Sinai . . .
"And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath
spoken WE WILL DO." Exodus 19:8
"they said, All that the LORD hath said WILL WE DO, AND BE OBEDIENT."
Exodus 24:7
But they didn't understand the power of the fallen nature and the need for a
superior power supplying the grace to render the obedience required. Thus,
here is one example of the result . . .
"Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain,
the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, "Come, make us gods that
shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the
land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him." And Aaron said to them,
"Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and
your daughters, and bring them to me." "So all the people broke off the golden
earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. And he received the
gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded
calf. Then they said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of
Egypt!"
Exodus 32:1-4
They STARTED with this vow of obedience - and look what happened! This
is *Old Covenant* religion - it doesn't work. That doesn't mean obedience is
not required; but we have to START somewhere else; and where that is lies in
the provisions of the *New Covenant.* When we go THIS route, obedience
will follow.
Andrew
Rob
You're king of the egos around here, and you wear your crown proudly.
Rob
Rob
wrote:
It's paradoxical. I explained all of this to you before.
Message-ID: <prva2v897nkaje2lc...@4ax.com>
Rob
Paul
know you can't help yourself. Just watch and see.
James Hajicek
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and
not by faith only.
Lamarr Edwards wrote:
Rob - The Apostle Paul, using your reasoning, has a problem
with what James said.
James appears to say that works are part of justification,
and Paul says, a number of times, that justification is
purely by faith, alone, without any works being involved.
When the Bible is interpreted correctly, there is no "problem", there
is no "contradiction", and there is no "paradox".
What Lamarr said is NOT what Paul wrote:
Romans 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law.
Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the
law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ...
The apostle Paul said that we are not justified by works OF THE LAW.
Paul did not say that no works of any kind were required, but only no
works OF THE LAW.
It is important to understand that Paul was referring to works of the
Law of Moses, not the Ten Commandments, and that in particular Paul
was referring the animal sacrifices for atonement of sins:
Leviticus 5:17-18
17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which
are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD;
though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his
iniquity.
18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the
flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto
the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him
concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not,
and it shall be forgiven him.
Numbers 15:27-29
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall
bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that
sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the
LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven
him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through
ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of
Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Luke clarified what Paul taught:
Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all
things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of
Moses.
Most of the Jews probably understood this perfectly. However, the
Gentiles, who were UNLEARNED in the Law of Moses may have been
confused. Peter warned that the UNLEARNED were being confused:
2 Peter 3:16
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these
things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do
also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
With this clear warning, it is obvious that extreme caution ought to
be applied to taking Paul's statements out of context and inventing
grand and extravagant theories about "salvation by faith alone", when
that is NOT what Paul said. In the first place, justification
(atonement) is only one part of salvation. In the second place, Paul
did not write about "justification by faith alone", he wrote about
"justification by faith without the Law of Moses."
It is obvious that what James wrote was intended to CORRECT any
possible misunderstanding of Paul's doctrine. It was aimed directly
at people like Lamarr. That James was referring to works of the Ten
Commandments in James 2:24 is clear from the context, James 2:11.
- James
James Hajicek
... The Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY God:
Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and
so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to
them that obey him.
So we should start with OBEDIENCE, and then proceed from
there. ...
Andrew replied:
This concept of starting with obedience is what the people
vowed even at the foot of Sinai . . .
"And all the people answered together, and said,
All that the LORD hath spoken WE WILL DO."
Exodus 19:8
"they said, All that the LORD hath said WILL WE
DO, AND BE OBEDIENT." Exodus 24:7
But they didn't understand the power of the fallen nature
and the need for a superior power supplying the grace to
render the obedience required. Thus, here is one example of
the result . . .
Exodus 32:1-4
They STARTED with this vow of obedience - and look what
happened! This is *Old Covenant* religion - it doesn't work.
That doesn't mean obedience is not required; but we have to
START somewhere else; and where that is lies in the
provisions of the *New Covenant.* When we go THIS route,
obedience will follow.
The creation and worshipping of a golden calf was NOT an inevitable
consequence of the "fallen nature". It was DELIBERATE and WILLFUL
disobedience of God.
Do not do that. Do not be tempted and enticed by false doctrine into
thinking that obedience to God is unnecessary for salvation.
Get rid of that Santa Claus cult, help to exterminate it. Get rid of
the molten images, such as the Christmas tree ornaments representing
stars, angels, icicles, and so forth. Also, do not pledge allegiance
to any inanimate object, such as a flag.
And quit pretending that a correct observance of the commandments is
an automatic consequence of "believing" in Jesus Christ. If that were
true, we would not be having all of that idolatry among those who
think that they are Christian.
- James
Andrew
"James Hajicek" wrote:
>
> Get rid of that Santa Claus cult, help to exterminate it. Get rid of
> the molten images, such as the Christmas tree ornaments representing
> stars, angels, icicles, and so forth. Also, do not pledge allegiance
> to any inanimate object, such as a flag.
Interesting religion you have, James!! I found there is more to life than
avoiding Christmas and exterminating Santa Clauses. God is calling for
the exemplification of the active Christian virtues - and this is possible
only through the provisions of the New Covenant.
"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
~ Jesus
Lamarr Edwards
"Abraham put his faith in God, and that faith was counted to him as
righteousness. Now, if a man does a piece of work, his wages are not
counted as a "favor", they are paid as debt. But,if without any work to
his credit, he simply puts his faith in him who acquits the guilty, then
his faith is indeed counted as righteousness. In the same sense Davis
speaks of the happiness of man whom God "counts" as righteous , apart
from any specific acts of justice ; "happy are they",he says, "whose
lawless deeds are forgiven ,whose sins are buried away; happy is the man
whose sins are the Lord does not count against him" Romans 4; 1-6 NEB
"Therefore, now that we have been justified through faith, let us
continue at peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom
we have been allowed to enter the sphere of Gods Grace, where we now
stand" Romans 5; 1-2 NEB
Here it is James, faith allows one to be forgiven, and counted as
righteous, through the substitutionary life of Christ.
This is the sum total of salvation, there are no more deeds required.
Paul says that after one has salvation, we are to "continue in peace
with God", note that he did not say that we are to become sinless, or
keep the law, or give our bodies to be burned. He said we are to
CONTINUE in peace with God.
Well, how did we come to peace with God in the first place ? By faith,
repentence and acceptance of Christ, as the Son of God.
Immediately you will continue to make your false accusation, " he says
it is OK to sin as you want, and still be saved !"
Wrong James. Salvation brings the Spirit, a conscience, and a desire to
please God.
Having these things, the justified, ( counted as perfectly righteous)
child of God will fight against sin in his life, at peace with God,
because he is accepted of God.
He becomes no longer at peace with God, when he no longer has faith, and
thus cherishes sin, with never a repentant heart and sorrow for what he
has done. LE
Paul
Mormon religion. Answer this question: Is Jesus fully God and equal with
the Father? Is the Holy spirit fully God and equal with the Father? Or was
Jesus the offspring of The Holy Spirit and God the Father? Once you come
out of the closet it will make you works for salvation position much more
understandable. Do you hope some day to have your own universe to rule?
Paul
"James Hajicek" <haj...@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:3EFC9E42...@execpc.com...
James Hajicek
James, why not just admit that you are not Christian, but a
sub-cult of the Mormon religion.
I am a Christian. I believer that the LORD God Jehovah, the creator
of heaven and earth, took on human flesh to become Jesus Christ for
the purpose of the crucifixion.
I am not a "sub" anything with respect to the Utah Mormon church.
Answer this question: Is Jesus fully God and equal with the
Father?
I believe that Jesus is fully God. However, I know of no scripture
which says that Jesus is EQUAL to the Father, but merely that they are
united in purpose.
Is the Holy spirit fully God and equal with the Father?
I believe that the Holy Spirit is fully God, even though there is
little Biblical scripture to indicate that. I know of no scripture
which indicates that the Holy Spirit is above or below the God the
Father and God the Son in a family relationship.
Or was Jesus the offspring of The Holy Spirit and God the
Father?
In particular, there is no scripture which says that the Jesus is the
offspring of the Holy Spirit and God the Father. I think that such an
idea is probably false. It is certainly spurious in that it is not
supported by any scripture.
Once you come out of the closet it will make you works for
salvation position much more understandable.
I am not in "the closet" with respect to the fact that I accept the
Book of Mormon and the revelations given through Joseph Smith. I have
been honest about this from the beginning, but I have resisted quoting
from latter-day scripture on this newsgroup, even when there are
things there which confirm my interpretation of Bible scripture.
Do you hope some day to have your own universe to rule?
Such ideas come from the Utah Mormons. I have never had any
relationship to Brigham Young or to any of Brigham Young's followers.
There is no revelation given through Joseph Smith which adds anything
about this topic to what is already in the Bible:
Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one
of us, to know good and evil: ...
Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of
the most High.
John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent
into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the
Son of God?
John 17:20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me,
and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the
world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I am not claiming to have any special or additional information beyond
what is written above.
More will have to be revealed about these things before anyone can
provide definite answers to our questions.
- James
James Hajicek
Get rid of that Santa Claus cult, help to exterminate it.
Get rid of the molten images, such as the Christmas tree
ornaments representing stars, angels, icicles, and so forth.
Also, do not pledge allegiance to any inanimate object, such
as a flag.
Andrew replied:
Interesting religion you have, James!! I found there is
more to life than avoiding Christmas and exterminating Santa
Clauses.
Why does it seem to be so peculiar to avoid idolatry? Why are there
so many people who are trying to normalize idolatry, and trying to
make idolatry seem to be acceptable?
I said nothing about "avoiding Christmas". However, I do believe that
December 25 was NOT the birth date of Jesus. Using a wrong calendar
carries with it the risk of fasting on what ought to be a day of
celebration and feasting on what ought to be a day of mourning.
I said to avoid idolatry.
Anyone can see that Santa Claus is a false god, presented to children
as having supernatural powers. For example, here are some of the
words of a popular song:
He sees you when you're sleeping,
He knows when you're awake.
He knows if you've been bad or good, ...
Making molten images was forbidden by one of the Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:4
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Molten images are an abomination:
Numbers 33:52
52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land
from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy
all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high
places:
Deuteronomy 27:15
15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten
image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands
of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all
the people shall answer and say, Amen.
A molten image is something which is molded out of metal or plastic in
the shape of something. The typical Christmas tree is covered with
these things, one of the worst being a little plastic Santa Claus.
----------
Andrew continued:
God is calling for the exemplification of the active
Christian virtues - and this is possible only through the
provisions of the New Covenant.
If the typical Christian had the laws of God written on his heart,
then we would not be having all of that idolatry.
Righteousness means obeying the Ten Commandments. Sin is doing
anything which is contrary to the laws of God:
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for
sin is the transgression of the law.
The Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY God:
Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also
the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
- James
James Hajicek
In the first place, justification (atonement) is only one
part of salvation. In the second place, Paul did not write
about "justification by faith alone", he wrote about
"justification by faith without the Law of Moses."
Lamarr Edwards replied:
James - Salvation is more than justification ?
Of course it is. If it were the same thing, we would not need two
separate words to describe them.
Justification, the atonement, is something which Jesus did. But that
will not save Satan. Salvation also involves things that WE are
supposed to do. For example:
1. Baptism by water for Repentance:
Matthew 3:1-2,6
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the
wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at
hand.
...
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their
sins.
Matthew 3:13-15
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to
be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized
of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so
now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.
Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost:
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a
man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into
the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and
wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
2. Baptism by the Holy Spirit:
Matthew 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he
that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am
not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy
Ghost, and with fire:
Acts 1:5
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be
baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 11:16
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he
said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be
baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy
Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and
prophesied.
3. Acceptance of Jesus Christ as LORD:
Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of
things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the
earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ
is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Well, how did we come to peace with God in the first place ?
By faith, repentence and acceptance of Christ, as the Son of
God.
Repentance means making a commitment to quit sinning. As long as
someone thinks that sinning is optional, he has NOT repented.
But most of the so-called Christians are still committing idolatry
with: (1) that Santa Claus cult, (2) idolatrous Christmas tree
ornaments, and (3) pledging allegiance to inanimate objects, such as
the flag.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Wrong James. Salvation brings the Spirit, a conscience, and
a desire to please God.
Having these things, the justified, ( counted as perfectly
righteous) child of God will fight against sin in his life,
at peace with God, because he is accepted of God.
There is some truth in what Lamarr says. But since most of the
so-called Christians are not fighting against idolatry, not in their
own lives nor in any other way, it is evident that they are NOT saved.
It is necessary to preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD in order to
make people aware of their wretched fallen state, and to them bring
them to true salvation.
Assuring sinners that they are "saved" and then telling them that
"salvation is by faith only", two lies, does nothing whatever to help
them. It merely leaves them heading straight for the pit, too blind
to see where they are going.
- James
Andrew
"James Hajicek" wrote:
>
> It is necessary to preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD in order to
> make people aware of their wretched fallen state, and to them bring
> them to true salvation.
What about Jesus?? Without Him it will be an *old covenant* type religion
with NO POWER to live the precepts of the law. It would be phariseeism.
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide
in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same
bringeth forth much fruit: for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING."
John 15:4-5
> - James
Andrew
Paul
> Paul Tooley wrote:
>
> James, why not just admit that you are not Christian, but a
> sub-cult of the Mormon religion.
>
> I am a Christian. I believer that the LORD God Jehovah, the creator
> of heaven and earth, took on human flesh to become Jesus Christ for
> the purpose of the crucifixion.
>
> I am not a "sub" anything with respect to the Utah Mormon church.
>
> Answer this question: Is Jesus fully God and equal with the
> Father?
>
> I believe that Jesus is fully God. However, I know of no scripture
> which says that Jesus is EQUAL to the Father, but merely that they are
> united in purpose.
This is as I thought. If I showed you such a scripture would you change
your views or would you merely make an exscuse for why the passage didn't
really mean what it said?
> Is the Holy spirit fully God and equal with the Father?
>
> I believe that the Holy Spirit is fully God, even though there is
> little Biblical scripture to indicate that. I know of no scripture
> which indicates that the Holy Spirit is above or below the God the
> Father and God the Son in a family relationship.
>
> Or was Jesus the offspring of The Holy Spirit and God the
> Father?
>
> In particular, there is no scripture which says that the Jesus is the
> offspring of the Holy Spirit and God the Father. I think that such an
> idea is probably false. It is certainly spurious in that it is not
> supported by any scripture.
>
> Once you come out of the closet it will make you works for
> salvation position much more understandable.
>
> I am not in "the closet" with respect to the fact that I accept the
> Book of Mormon and the revelations given through Joseph Smith. I have
> been honest about this from the beginning, but I have resisted quoting
> from latter-day scripture on this newsgroup, even when there are
> things there which confirm my interpretation of Bible scripture.
These are the things that give you your world view. With out them people
will never know what your real agenda is, and we all have agendas.
But in essence you do believe that you may some day attain a deity status.
Do you believe that your soul is the offspring of spirit parents in heaven?
Cindy
> >
> > It is necessary to preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD in
> > order to make people aware of their wretched fallen state, and to
them
> > bring them to true salvation.
>
> What about Jesus?? Without Him it will be an *old covenant* type
religion
> with NO POWER to live the precepts of the law. It would be
phariseeism.
Jesus is the answer Andrew. While I do not agree with all that James
posts,
I have not noticed him leaving the subject of faith, or Jesus out of his
posts.
James even wrote in the post you are responding to;
'The atonement does not come by works of the Law of Moses, namely by
animal sacrifices, but instead by faith in Jesus Christ and by Jesus'
sacrifice."
Is it possible you have not noticed this, and that is why you deleted
it out of your response here, and have then accused him of being the one
to leave Jesus out?
I personally agree with the statement that James made that you are
responding to. First things first.. The Master himself began teaching
the gospel with these words:
"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye,
and believe the gospel."- mark 1:15 EGW had the following to say about
the same subject:
"While we point the sinner to Jesus as the one who can take away sin,
we must explain to him what sin is, and show him that he can be saved
from his sins, but not in them. He must be made to realize that "sin is
the transgression of the law." Paul makes the inquiry, many years after
the death of Christ, "Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known
lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Thus Paul exalts
the moral law. When this law is practically carried out in every-day
life, it is found indeed to be the wisdom of God. It serves to detect
sin. It discovers the defects in the moral character, and shows sin to
be exceeding sinful, revealing it in all its hideousness. Through
obedience to its requirements, Christian character is perfected.
God's law is a copy of his mind and will. The sins forbidden there
could never find a place in Heaven. It was love that prompted God to
express his will in the ten precepts of the decalogue. Afterward he
showed his love for man by sending prophets and teachers to explain and
illustrate his holy law.
God has given man a complete rule of life in his law. Obeyed, man
shall live by it, through the merits of Christ. Transgressed, it has
power to condemn. The law sends men to Christ, and Christ points them
back to the law...
~ ST, September 4, 1884
" A terrible doom awaits the sinner, and therefore it is necessary
that we know what sin is, in order that we may escape from its power.
John says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin
is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). Here we have the true
definition of sin; it is "the transgression of the law." How often the
sinner is urged to leave his sins, and come to Jesus; but has the
messenger who would lead him to Christ clearly pointed out the way? Has
he clearly pointed out the fact that "sin is the transgression of the
law," and that he must repent and forsake the breaking of God's
commandments? . . . " {FW 117.2}
>
> "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
except it abide
> in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
>
> "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in
him, the same
> bringeth forth much fruit: for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING."
> John 15:4-5
>
>
~ Cindy
Lamarr Edwards
Please tell me how a pine tree, with a glass globe or globes on it is an
"idol" ?
This is nuts. An idol, can only be an idol, if you worship it. Get it
James ? Glass balls and trees are not idols, unless you make them so.
So, others used them as idols in pagan religions, James,
(knock,knock,knock), if you don't make them an idol, they are only glass
balls and a tree.
There are pagans who worship the moon, do you not look at the moon
because of this ?
The more you expound on what you believe, the more I am convinced that
you need professional help. LE
Paul
"Lamarr Edwards" <shmo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6654-3F0...@storefull-2374.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Do I detect shades of Kabotoff here?
James Hajicek
It is necessary to preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD in
order to make people aware of their wretched fallen state,
and to them bring them to true salvation.
Andrew replied:
What about Jesus?? Without Him it will be an *old covenant*
type religion with NO POWER to live the precepts of the law.
It would be phariseeism.
John 15:4-5
I certainly have included Jesus in what I have been posting here.
For example, in my message I ALSO wrote:
Justification, the atonement, is something which Jesus did.
But that will not save Satan. Salvation also involves
things that WE are supposed to do. For example:
1. Baptism by water for Repentance: ...
2. Baptism by the Holy Spirit: ...
3. Acceptance of Jesus Christ as LORD:
Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of
things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the
earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ
is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Does that look like I have been ignoring Jesus Christ?
But those who pretend to preach "Jesus" without ALSO saying something
about the things which Jesus Christ taught, THEY are the ones who do
not preach "Jesus". For example, Jesus taught:
Matthew 19:17
17 ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark 6:12
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all
likewise perish.
John 5:14
14 ... Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a
worse thing come unto thee.
John 8:11
11 ... go, and sin no more.
Can you see it? Jesus himself taught REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD.
He also told his disciples to do the same:
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ...
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ...
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: ...
Jesus' real disciples did preach REPENTANCE, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 8:22,
26:20, 2 Timothy 2:19, etc.
Jesus' real disciples did preach OBEDIENCE, Acts 5:29,32, Romans
10:5-6,21, 15:18, 16:19, 2 Corinthians 2:9, Ephesians 2:2, 5:6,
Philippians 2:12, Colossians 3:6, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 2:2, 5:9,
1 Peter 1:2,14, 2:7-8, etc.
This ought to settle the issue. When someone says, "It is necessary
to preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD ...", those who argue
against it are obviously working for the other side.
Those who do not preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD do not have
even the slightest resemblance to one of Jesus' disciples.
- James
James Hajicek
I believe that Jesus is fully God. However, I know of no
scripture which says that Jesus is EQUAL to the Father, but
merely that they are united in purpose.
Paul Tooley replied:
This is as I thought. If I showed you such a scripture
would you change your views or would you merely make an
exscuse for why the passage didn't really mean what it said?
Paul, If you think that you have such a scripture citation, you should
have simply given it. I have no intention of being tricked into a
long digression about the nature of God.
However, consider this:
John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I
said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jesus HIMSELF said that his Father was GREATER than he was.
If you intend to quote something that Paul wrote, or something that
the Pharisees said, something which you THINK says that they are
"equal", then do so, but do not expect me to reply to it. Jesus knew
more about this that Paul did, and the Pharisees knew almost nothing
at all about it, so I am content to base my belief on what Jesus said.
I believe that Jesus Christ was the same personage as the LORD God,
Jehovah, who created the heavens and the earth and who led the
Israelites out of Egypt, and who took on human flesh for the purpose
of the crucifixion. In this sense Jesus is not only equal to God, but
he was exactly the same personage. However, I believe that this is
"God the Son", and that "God the Father" is a different personage
about whom little has been revealed.
Now I have answered your questions about what I believe, I have been
perfect plain about it, and I do not intend to discuss this further
with you because: (1) there is not enough scripture to say much more,
and (2) you only accept half of that.
----------
I wrote:
I am not in "the closet" with respect to the fact that I
accept the Book of Mormon and the revelations given through
Joseph Smith. I have been honest about this from the
beginning, but I have resisted quoting from latter-day
scripture on this newsgroup, even when there are things
there which confirm my interpretation of Bible scripture.
Paul Tooley replied:
These are the things that give you your world view. With
out them people will never know what your real agenda is,
and we all have agendas.
Yes, the Book of Mormon and the latter-day revelations help to shape
my "world view". These things help to make plain some otherwise
confusing and obscure Biblical scripture.
Nevertheless, I have been quoting from the Bible, not from the Book of
Mormon.
----------
Concerning our future relationship with God, I wrote:
Genesis 3:22
Psalms 82:6
John 10:34-36
John 17:20-21
I am not claiming to have any special or additional
information beyond what is written above.
More will have to be revealed about these things before
anyone can provide definite answers to our questions.
Paul Tooley replied:
But in essence you do believe that you may some day attain a
deity status.
We refer to God as our "father". It is impossible for any thinking
person to not be aware that it is the nature of "sons" to grow up to
resemble in some way their "father". If there were not something
significant here, we would call ourselves "servants" or "slaves" of
God, the way that the Moslems do.
But I do NOT "believe" that as an article of my faith. More will have
to be revealed about these things before anyone can provide definite
answers to our questions.
Do you believe that your soul is the offspring of spirit
parents in heaven?
No. That is NOT what I believe. I tend to think that our spirits
were fabricated, not born. But there is no scripture about how our
spirits were created, so how would I know?
That human spirits had some kind of existence prior to our birth is
proven from two things.
First, from the scripture:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and
the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; ...
Second, from common sense. Many people are born into painful lives,
even from their childhood, for which they did nothing to deserve. The
various theories of preexistence all explain this by surmising that we
had some kind former life which affects our status in the current one.
For example, some people believe in reincarnation. If you reject any
kind of preexistence whatever, then you are accusing God of being
unjust.
There is no additional latter-day scripture about this, beyond what is
in the Bible. Any theories which come from Brigham Young are pure
speculation. Of course I am not accountable for any of that.
- James
Rob
Ah, multiple gods. You and Trinitarians do have something in common
after all - you both worship the god-people. The term "God the Son"
is a false term, because it implies that God is his own father, which
is why the term "God the Son" also appears nowhere in scripture.
Rob
Andrew
"James Hajicek" wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> It is necessary to preach REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD in
> order to make people aware of their wretched fallen state,
> and to them bring them to true salvation.
>
> Andrew replied:
>
> What about Jesus?? Without Him it will be an *old covenant*
> type religion with NO POWER to live the precepts of the law.
> It would be phariseeism.
>
> John 15:4-5
>
> I certainly have included Jesus in what I have been posting here.
The neopharisees ACKNOWLEDGE Jesus, but will EMPHASIZE multitudinous
human exactions in the place of Christ and condemn all who fall short of their pre-
scribed standard.
In most cases it is not that difficult to make people aware of their wretched fallen
state; and to preach repentance and obedience is proper, but this of itself is not what
brings them to true salvation. You can have all of this in the *old covenant* type
religion which is devoid of the grace to live the righteous requirements of the Law.
Without a living, vital connection with the Source of power, no one can render true
obedience. This is proven over and over again in the Scriptures, and if we are honest,
in our own life experience. But through Christ and in His strength we really can
become Christlike, which is harmony with His Law. As Cindy said . .
"Cindy" wrote:
>
> through Christ we really can become Christlike in word and
> deed, as God created us to be, in his image. That's much better
> than being totally depraved and unable to stop sinning isn't it?
>
"JH" wrote
>
> Jesus himself taught REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE TO GOD.
> He also told his disciples to do the same:
This is true, but only in the strength which comes from intimate connection
with, and total surrender to -Him- is that possible.
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it
abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.I am the vine, you
are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for
WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. If anyone does not abide in Me,
he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw
them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:4-6
Andrew
James Hajicek
Repentance means making a commitment to quit sinning. As
long as someone thinks that sinning is optional, he has NOT
repented.
But most of the so-called Christians are still committing
idolatry with: (1) that Santa Claus cult, (2) idolatrous
Christmas tree ornaments, and (3) pledging allegiance to
inanimate objects, such as the flag.
Lamarr Edwards replied:
James - I think you are beginning to unravel.
Please tell me how a pine tree, with a glass globe or globes
on it is an "idol" ?
It is not MERELY glass globes. That is a whitewash of what is
actually happening. The tree cult ALSO includes ornaments which are
images of things, such as icicles, canes, stars, angels, and little
Santa Claus idols.
I am convinced that the tree cult was also a problem in ancient
Israel, and that the Hebrew word ASRE (asherah), which is usually
translated as "grove", really means a "decorated tree". For example:
2 Kings 23:6-7
6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD,
without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at
the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast
the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the
people.
7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were
by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for
the grove.
Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a
tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the
workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it
with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
The above verses, supported by other related verses, shows that the
"asherah" was not a grove, but that it was something which was small
enough to take into the temple, that it was made from a tree, and that
it had "hangings", or ornaments.
----------
Lamarr continued:
This is nuts. An idol, can only be an idol, if you worship
it. Get it James ? Glass balls and trees are not idols,
unless you make them so.
So, others used them as idols in pagan religions, James,
(knock,knock,knock), if you don't make them an idol, they
are only glass balls and a tree.
The Commandment actually forbids ANY graven or molten images, whether
they are worshipped or not:
Exodus 20:4
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
In the Law of Moses, people who made any kind of image whatever were
"cursed":
Deuteronomy 27:15
15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten
image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands
of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all
the people shall answer and say, Amen.
It is somewhat ambiguous whether this prohibition ought to be applied
to knickknacks, lawn ornaments, and relief maps.
But false representations of Jesus, for example with long hair, and
false representations of angels, for example with wings, are probably
the kind of thing which is forbidden.
And plastic images of the false god Santa Claus is CERTAINLY over the
line.
It is lame to claim that the decorated trees are not being worshipped,
when they are brought right into the worship meetings and set up in
front of the congregations. It is lame to claim that Santa Claus is
not being worshipped, when children are being taught to pray to him
(write letters asking for things).
----------
Lamarr continued:
There are pagans who worship the moon, do you not look at
the moon because of this ?
It is permitted to LOOK at the moon and stars. It is NOT permitted to
make IMAGES of the moon or of stars, and to set them up as part of
what is claimed to be a holy scene, such as a manger scene. The real
star of Bethlehem probably looked nothing at all like what it is
commonly portrayed to be.
----------
Lamarr continued:
The more you expound on what you believe, the more I am
convinced that you need professional help.
Paul Tooley added:
Do I detect shades of Kabotoff here?
When those who are opposed to idolatry are accused of being insane,
their accusers are helping to PROMOTE and to PERPETUATE such idolatry.
This clarifies which side Lamarr Edwards and Paul Tooley are working
for.
- James
Lamarr Edwards
He was a bishop ( the staff, or cane as representative of a bishopric)
from the middle ages, in Eastern Europe, ( the outfit), who did, in
fact, give gifts to the poor on Christmas eve.
I taught my children of him, and explained that the historical record of
him had been expanded into the myth of santa claus.
They neither "worshipped" him, or believed the fairy tales of him.
Do you have family photographs, or photogrsphs of vacations, or
paintings in your home ?
Oops! you have broken the commandment, you are consigned to hell,
forever. LE
James Hajicek
James - Did you know that Nicholas ( santa claus) actually
existed ?
He was a bishop ( the staff, or cane as representative of a
bishopric) from the middle ages, in Eastern Europe, ( the
outfit), who did, in fact, give gifts to the poor on
Christmas eve.
If that medieval Nicholas was a "bishop" of the traditional Catholic
church, whether Roman or Orthodox, I presume that he was NOT a saint,
so the designation "Santa" Claus is inappropriate. Anyone who calls
him "Santa Claus" is acknowledging the authenticity of the Catholic
church.
I taught my children of him, and explained that the
historical record of him had been expanded into the myth of
santa claus.
They neither "worshipped" him, or believed the fairy tales
of him.
This is good. Now keep the accursed idols out of your home, and you
will be doing even better. Finally, join the movement to teach all
adults to also stop teaching their children that idolatrous cult.
I am dismayed at the so-called "ministers" and "pastors" who have a
pulpit and a captive audience, but who are too cowardly to speak out
publicly against the "Santa Claus" cult. Those who allow their
congregations to continue in idolatry, merely because they are afraid
of becoming unpopular if they say something, will have to answer for
their cowardice.
Do you have family photographs, or photogrsphs of vacations,
or paintings in your home ?
Oops! you have broken the commandment, you are consigned to
hell, forever.
Lamarr, why are you mocking? If you do not agree that images of
"Santa Claus" are images of a false god, you should merely say so.
But your mocking indicates the same thing, namely that you are
DEFENDING the use of the "Santa Claus" images.
Yes, I have a photograph, a cartoon, and a relief map of the United
States on the wall of my office. Yes, my wife has knickknacks and
lawn ornaments. If it were up to me alone, we would not have
knickknacks. Perhaps these things are forbidden, but the correct
translation of the Hebrew words of the commandment is not entirely
obvious. I probably was too extreme with my interpretation by saying
that any image whatever was forbidden. But at least I have been able
to keep that accursed tree cult out of my house for 30 years now.
When Jesus was asked about money with the image of Caesar, he did not
forbid anyone to touch it or to possess it, but merely said that it
should be used to pay taxes, Matthew 22:17-22. However, I do believe
that as soon as an image becomes the object of adoration or devotion,
the line has been crossed into what has been forbidden. For example,
it is not money which is the root of all evil, but the love of money,
1 Timothy 6:10.
Even a trivial knickknack, for example of a ceramic bird, is far more
dangerous than is usually recognized. It is easy to say that of
course we do not worship those things, but I think that they ARE
worshipped far more commonly than is usually realized. When a person
slips into schizophrenia, which is all too common, the victim's mind
plays tricks in which inanimate objects can seem to be alive. Such
people would be better off if they were not surrounded by such images.
However, the average knickknack is far less dangerous than any of
those things which are objects of devotion or adoration. For example:
1. Images of "Santa Claus" (Satan Claws). I say that "Santa Claus"
has become a false god, and that most people, including most so-called
Christians, are teaching their children this abomination, and that the
ability of children to have faith is damaged when they learn that they
have been deceived. I say that anyone who continues to display images
of that false god are contributing to the perpetuation of that cult,
even if they teach the truth privately.
2. Images of what are purported to be "Jesus Christ", especially
those of him with long hair. Paul was an apostle, a witness of Jesus
Christ, and he wrote that it was shameful for a man to have long hair,
1 Corinthians 11:14. Therefore it is highly unlikely that Jesus had
long hair. The trouble of such pictures is that they are far more
likely to be images of Satan, the beast, or the false prophet than of
Jesus Christ. Any such images which are likely to promote adoration
of those images ought to be forbidden.
3. Images of "angels" with wings. These are far more likely to be
images of devils than of real angels. Real angels, at least those
with a generally human appearance, ought to have been created in the
image of God, the same as mankind, and so they ought to not have
wings. There is every reason to believe that the angels who appeared
to Abraham were in the form of MEN, and that they walked not flew,
Genesis 18:2, etc.
4. Images of the "cross". These clearly promote adoration, and are
therefore in the category of what is forbidden. Remember that the
cross was a Roman symbol, a murder weapon, and an instrument of
torture.
5. Images of the "Statue of Liberty". The original, official, and
correct name of that giant statue in the New York harbor is the
"Goddess of Liberty". It is being called a "statue" rather than a
"goddess" in order to conceal its pagan origins. Need I say more?
6. The US flag, with pictures of stars on it. People pledge
allegiance to this inanimate object. This is more than a knickknack,
because it is often displayed in a prominent manner and with devotion.
It is often set up in the front of the congregation during worship
meetings. People, stop and think what you are doing.
Perhaps a campaign should ALSO be waged against knickknacks, but
eliminating the above would be a good start. But collectively we have
an even more serious problem. The names of false gods should not be
even spoken:
Exodus 23:13
13 And in all things that I have said unto you be
circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods,
neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
But the names of such false gods are being FREQUENTLY used, for
example in the names of the planets and in some of the chemical
elements:
Mercury Roman messenger god.
Venus Roman goddess of physical love.
Mars Roman god of war.
Jupiter Roman supreme god.
Saturn Roman god of agriculture.
Uranus Roman god of the sky.
Neptune Roman god of the sea.
Pluto Roman god of the underworld and of the dead.
helium Helios, Greek god of the sun.
titanium Titans, Greek family of gods.
selenium Selene, Greed god of the moon.
mercury Mercury, Roman messenger god.
thorium Thor, Norse god of thunder.
uranium Uranus, Roman god of the sky.
neptunium Neptune, Roman god of the sea.
plutonium Pluto, Roman god of the underworld.
The above list of elements is probably not complete, but it gives the
idea of the general problem.
The word "plutonium" is especially interesting because it is used in
weapons of mass destruction, in which the United States placed its
trust in during the many years of the cold war, and in which it
continues to place its trust. The Roman god "Pluto" is the equivalent
of the Greek god "Hades". This is evidently equivalent to "Satan".
Moreover, several of the following calendar words are named for
heathen gods:
Sunday Sun.
Monday Moon.
Tuesday Tiw or Tiu, the Teutonic god of war and the sky.
Wednesday Woden, the chief Norse god.
Thursday Thor, a Norse god.
Friday Frigga, a Norse goddess.
Saturday Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture.
January Janus, the Roman god of gates and beginnings.
February Februarius, the Roman feast of purification.
March Mars, the Roman god of war.
April Aprilis, of uncertain Roman origin.
May Maia, a Roman goddess.
June Juno, the Roman queen of the gods.
July Julius Caesar.
August Augustus Caesar.
September Seven.
October Eight.
November Nine.
December Ten.
It is difficult for any single small group to change those calendar
names without losing the ability to communicate with the rest of the
world. However, if the English-speaking people were truly a
God-fearing people, one would think that collectively we would be able
to find a way abandon that objectionable calendar tradition. But this
will never happen so long as all of the false preachers are teaching
that "abstaining from idolatry has nothing to do with our salvation".
- James
Lamarr Edwards
representation of anything, is idolotry.
Paints, lines, paper, clumps of clay or a tree is not inherently evil.
They represent something in some peoples minds, and some people worship
what they represent.
I am looking at a painting on paper, done in water color, of an eagle, I
do not worship eagles, therefore, is it an idol, or just a collection of
lines and colors?
I have a collection of model, antique cars, I do not worship cars, are
these things idols?
My fondest memories are of large family get togethers on the 25th of
december, where many, many people I loved, and are now gone, gathered to
have a meal, and listen to my grandfather read of the birth of Christ
from the Bible, and to exchange gifts. My grandmother always had a tree,
decorated with strung popcorn and cranberries, and bubbling lights, and
probably even an angel or two, she didn't worship trees, or popcorn, or
cranberries, or angels, and neither do I, is it idol worship to have
these things, the same time of the year, and remember by sight and smell
all those wonderful, loving people, and all the happiness that existed,
that won't exist again this side of eternity, is that idol worship ?
No, it is not.
One mans idol, is another mans nothing, idols are made and defined in
the heart, not out of pieces of metal, or paper, or fabric. LE
James Hajicek
Do you have family photographs, or photogrsphs of vacations,
or paintings in your home ?
Oops! you have broken the commandment, you are consigned to
hell, forever.
I wrote:
Lamarr, why are you mocking? If you do not agree that
images of "Santa Claus" are images of a false god, you
should merely say so. But your mocking indicates the same
thing, namely that you are DEFENDING the use of the "Santa
Claus" images.
Lamarr Edwards relied:
James _ I was not mocking you, I was mocking your definition
that a representation of anything, is idolotry.
Remember that my definition was based on quotations from the
scripture:
Exodus 20:4
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Deuteronomy 27:15
15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten
image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands
of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all
the people shall answer and say, Amen.
And so Lamarr, you should be careful about WHO it is that you are
mocking, whether it is me or God.
About the above scripture, I also wrote:
It is somewhat ambiguous whether this prohibition ought to
be applied to knickknacks, lawn ornaments, and relief maps.
I admit that the above translations of Exodus 20:4-5 and Deuteronomy
27:15 can be disputed. I also recognize that Deuteronomy 27:15 is
from the Law of Moses, which has been ended. However, my concern
never was about knickknacks and family photographs, but about more
serious things.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Paints, lines, paper, clumps of clay or a tree is not
inherently evil.
They represent something in some peoples minds, and some
people worship what they represent.
I am looking at a painting on paper, done in water color, of
an eagle, I do not worship eagles, therefore, is it an idol,
or just a collection of lines and colors?
I have a collection of model, antique cars, I do not worship
cars, are these things idols?
No, I am not directly worried about your model car collection.
As I have repeatedly stated, I am concerned about images of the false
god Santa Claus, images of other heathen gods, and of unscriptural
representations of holy things.
----------
Lamarr continued:
My fondest memories are of large family get togethers on the
25th of december, where many, many people I loved, and are
now gone, gathered to have a meal, and listen to my
grandfather read of the birth of Christ from the Bible, and
to exchange gifts. My grandmother always had a tree,
decorated with strung popcorn and cranberries, and bubbling
lights, and probably even an angel or two, she didn't
worship trees, or popcorn, or cranberries, or angels, and
neither do I, is it idol worship to have these things, the
same time of the year, and remember by sight and smell all
those wonderful, loving people, and all the happiness that
existed, that won't exist again this side of eternity, is
that idol worship ?
No, it is not.
One mans idol, is another mans nothing, idols are made and
defined in the heart, not out of pieces of metal, or paper,
or fabric.
Lamarr, you are continuing to give a WHITEWASH version of what is
actually happening in our society.
The ornaments on the typical Christmas tree consist of MORE than
popcorn, cranberries, and angels. They also include molten images of
Santa Claus, magical elves, and flying reindeer, virtually an entire
pantheon of paganism.
The typical family Christmas observance does NOT include reading from
the Bible. The typical observance consists of tricking children into
bowing down in front of the Christmas tree by tempting them with
gifts.
There have been three things wrong in this exchange of messages.
First, you have refused to acknowledge what is REALLY happening in our
increasingly pagan society.
Second, you have accused me of "beginning to unravel" and of needing
"professional help" merely for being opposed to that idolatry.
Third, in all of this you have not said EVEN ONE THING against the
Santa Claus cult. Santa Claus has become a false god, a creature with
supernatural powers to whom children pray, and so far you have not
been able to say EVEN ONE THING against it. All you have done is to
try at every turn to refute my arguments.
- James
Lamarr Edwards
about the bishop Nicholas, how can you construe that as support for your
cult ?
Society is going to hell in a handbasket in alot more harmful ways than
childrens tales.
Pornography, homosexuality, murder, increasing membership in satanic
covens, these are really bad, compared to the real harmful evil in the
world, a flying reindeer is rather refreshing.
I have not white washed anything-------. LE
James Hajicek
Lamarr, you are continuing to give a WHITEWASH version of
what is actually happening in our society.
The ornaments on the typical Christmas tree consist of MORE
than popcorn, cranberries, and angels. They also include
molten images of Santa Claus, magical elves, and flying
reindeer, virtually an entire pantheon of paganism.
The typical family Christmas observance does NOT include
reading from the Bible. The typical observance consists of
tricking children into bowing down in front of the Christmas
tree by tempting them with gifts.
There have been three things wrong in this exchange of
messages.
First, you have refused to acknowledge what is REALLY
happening in our increasingly pagan society.
Second, you have accused me of "beginning to unravel" and of
needing "professional help" merely for being opposed to that
idolatry.
Third, in all of this you have not said EVEN ONE THING
against the Santa Claus cult. Santa Claus has become a
false god, a creature with supernatural powers to whom
children pray, and so far you have not been able to say EVEN
ONE THING against it. All you have done is to try at every
turn to refute my arguments.
Lamarr Edwards replied:
James - I said that I decidedly DID disabuse my children of
the MYTHS about the bishop Nicholas, how can you construe
that as support for your cult ?
The Santa Claus cult is not MY cult, but instead it is the cult
created by those who want to commercialize Christmas, so that they can
sell more merchandise.
The fact that you personally did not teach your children lies is not
the same thing as taking a public stand against the Santa Claus cult.
Society is going to hell in a handbasket in alot more
harmful ways than childrens tales.
Pornography, homosexuality, murder, increasing membership in
satanic covens, these are really bad, compared to the real
harmful evil in the world, a flying reindeer is rather
refreshing.
I have not white washed anything-------. LE
Lamarr, it certainly is refreshing to see you say SOMETHING against
breaking the commandments. Up to now, your message has been the
following:
Your keeping the law has nothing to do with your salvation.
That statement is the same as saying:
Your idolatry has nothing to do with your salvation.
Your murders have nothing to do with your salvation.
Your adultery has nothing to do with your salvation.
Your stealing has nothing to do with your salvation.
etc.
Taking a definite stand AGAINST pornography, homosexuality, murder,
and satanic covens is a definite improvement over what you have been
doing.
However, you are STILL whitewashing the Santa Claus cult. You wrote
that compared with those things "a flying reindeer is rather
refreshing", which is POSITIVE SUPPORT for the cult. And you still
have not admitted that the cult is more serious than merely popcorn,
cranberries, and angels.
Many of the problems with moral decay in our society are relatively
recent, the worst of it having started in the last 20 years. But the
Santa Claus idolatry started a 100 years ago. An argument could be
made that the idolatry, in which people began to turn against God, has
been the root cause for much of the other decay.
The ability of young children to have faith is being destroyed by
their disillusionment after having been taught lies. It is not enough
that you yourself did not tell lies. You should also do something to
discourage other people from telling lies.
The ability of people to recognize a real angel is being destroyed by
unscriptural representations of angels with wings. Remember Martin
Luther's incident with the ink well. I suggested that Luther failed
to recognize an angel who was sent to warn him.
The myth has given Santa Claus supernatural powers, and so he has
become a false god. Images of Santa Claus, magical elves, and flying
reindeer are now clearly idolatrous.
Your failure to understand the seriousness of idolatry is the reason
that I exhorted you to say SOMETHING, anything whatever, AGAINST Santa
Claus. However, you have not been able to do it.
- James
Lamarr Edwards
based on being ,against whatever.
In your zeal to be against something, in this case, what you think I
believe, you create utter strawmen.
I have never, once, said that I am against doing right, as you
constantly propose, what I have said is that doing right cannot save
you, only the mercy of Christ can do that, but you choose to continually
twist my words, so that you can "be against" them
You are against, with some justification, what you think most families
do for the Christmas holiday, you haven't yet explained how you know
what most do, but that is irrelevant.
I explained my families tradition, and you are against that, and me,
because I don't demand that everyone believe as I do.
Why don't you try and find something to ( or someone) to be really for,
like Jesus Christ ?
Humanity has gone through cycles, ( and this is the last) of crass
immorality for thousands of years, and little of it has to do with
Christmas trees.
It all has to do with a total disregard for God.
I read in another post that you make the ceremony of baptism of much
more importance than what it represents, once again, you are "against "
how people, even yourself, were baptized, but totally fail to understand
that baptism is about a change in the baptized persons heart, it is not
about ceremonies and who performs them.
Before you feel compelled to be "against" me, because you will infer
that I believe in sprinkling, don't, I don't. However, if there isn't
enough water ( say in the desert) for immersion, I suspect that God
would accept a baptism by sand, if the believers heart is right
How do you know that Angels don't have wings, if that is how they choose
to manifest themselves. Have you read of the statues ( interesting,
that) of the angels on the top of the ark of the covenant ?, yup, they
had wings.
Angels are creatures of a spiritual realm, and regardless of what old
joe said, we don't know how they appear in their natural world, because
we aren't there, so why worry about it ?
Why not be for something, instead of contantly being against something ?
Or, are you for, being against, virtually everything ? LE
James Hajicek
You are against, with some justification, what you think
most families do for the Christmas holiday, you haven't yet
explained how you know what most do, but that is irrelevant.
Anyone who has any doubt about what is going on in general society
should carefully examine the Christmas cards which they receive,
especially those from the general public, such as casual friends and
coworkers. The vast majority of such cards have a pagan theme of one
kind or another, either of the false god Santa Claus, or of holly and
mistletoe. Occasionally there will be a winter scene, and only rarely
a card with a religious theme.
----------
Lamarr continued:
I explained my families tradition, and you are against that,
and me, because I don't demand that everyone believe as I
do.
God hates false images, Deuteronomy 4:15-19, 27:15, 1 Kings 14:9,
Isaiah 41:29, 44:9-11, Jeremiah 10:14-15, 51:17-18, Nahum 1:14,
Habakkuk 2:18-19.
The Law of Moses required idols to be torn down and destroyed anywhere
they were found, Numbers 33:52, Deuteronomy 7:5, 12:3, 2 Chronicles
34:3-7.
The modern mythology has given Santa Claus supernatural powers, and
children are taught to pray to him. The Law of Moses has expired, so
I am not suggesting the use of violence against the public display of
Santa Claus images. However, I think that anyone who is influenced by
the Holy Spirit ought to be able to say at least a few words against
such idolatry.
The Bible verses which I cited above mention the hatred and
destruction of the "asherah", from the Hebrew word ASRE (asherah).
This is translated in the KJV as "grove", but which was actually a
decorated tree with hanging ornaments:
2 Kings 23:6-7
6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD,
without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at
the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast
the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the
people.
7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were
by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for
the grove.
Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a
tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the
workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it
with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
There is unfulfilled prophecy about the destructions which will come
on the world, in part for making these "asherah". This indicates that
the destruction will come during the Christmas season:
Micah 5:13-15
13 Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing
images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more
worship the work of thine hands.
--> 14 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee:
so will I destroy thy cities.
15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the
heathen, such as they have not heard.
The wrath of God is coming on the world, in part for idolatry:
Revelation 9:20
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these
plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that
they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and
silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can
see, nor hear, nor walk:
We are in a life and death struggle against false spirits:
Ephesians 6:11-13
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to
stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye
may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done
all, to stand.
For example, there is a clear struggle in progress between the
spiritual message of Christ's birth and those who commercialize
Christmas in order to sell more merchandise.
We have been told to WARN others:
Ephesians 1:28
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every
man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in
Christ Jesus:
In spite of all this, the fake Christians are almost entirely
paralyzed, unable to say anything against idolatry for fear of
offending the merchants.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Why don't you try and find something to ( or someone) to be
really for, like Jesus Christ ?
I have said something about Jesus Christ in over 80% of my messages on
this newsgroup. I have said that I believe that Jesus is the very
same personage as the LORD God Jehovah who created the heavens and the
earth and who led the Israelites out of Egypt.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Humanity has gone through cycles, ( and this is the last) of
crass immorality for thousands of years, and little of it
has to do with Christmas trees.
It all has to do with a total disregard for God.
The "total disregard for God" is demonstrated, for example, by the
substitution of Santa Claus for Jesus Christ in the Christmas season.
The "total disregard for God" is demonstrated, for example, in the
commercialization of Christmas, in which both Santa Claus and
Christmas trees play a major role. Christmas trees are promoted by
the merchants because people are expected to put gifts under the
trees, which increases sales. Note that the wise men gave their gifts
to Jesus, not to each other.
----------
Lamarr continued:
I read in another post that you make the ceremony of baptism
of much more importance than what it represents, once again,
you are "against " how people, even yourself, were baptized,
but totally fail to understand that baptism is about a
change in the baptized persons heart, it is not about
ceremonies and who performs them.
I have no more authority to baptize than I do to admit foreigners as
citizens of the United States. Those who pretend to have the
authority to baptize, when they have not been given such authority,
will have to answer to God for what they do, but it is not for me to
forbid them, Mark 9:38-40.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Before you feel compelled to be "against" me, because you
will infer that I believe in sprinkling, don't, I don't.
However, if there isn't enough water ( say in the desert)
for immersion, I suspect that God would accept a baptism by
sand, if the believers heart is right
I have long been aware that there could be circumstances, especially
in the future, in which baptism by immersion in water is impossible.
But I have not formed a definite opinion on what ought to be done. If
this were to become a widespread problem, God will presumably reveal
to those who are authorized to baptize what they are supposed to do.
I will continue to consider this question, but frankly, right now
Lamarr's support for anything is an argument against it.
----------
Lamarr continued:
How do you know that Angels don't have wings, if that is how
they choose to manifest themselves. Have you read of the
statues (interesting, that) of the angels on the top of the
ark of the covenant ?, yup, they had wings.
Angels are creatures of a spiritual realm, and regardless of
what old joe said, we don't know how they appear in their
natural world, because we aren't there, so why worry about
it ?
The images whose wings cover the ark of the covenant are called
"cherubs" or "cherubim", not "angels", Exodus 25:18-22, 37:7-9.
Besides wings, cherubim also have nonhuman faces, Ezekiel 10:14.
Moreover, they have FOUR wings, not two, Ezekiel 1:6, 10:21. And
seraphim have SIX wings, Isaiah 6:2.
The Greek word "angelos" which is translated as "angel" literally
means "messenger". The Hebrew word for "angel", which is MLAK
(malak), is translated in the KJV as "angel" 113 times, but as
"messenger" 98 times, and as "ambassador" 4 times.
At one time angels were definitely common in the "natural world":
Genesis 28:12
12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth,
and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels
of God ascending and descending on it.
If angels are no longer seen in the "natural world", it is because of
the prevailing lack of faith. Yes, we should "worry about it".
Lamarr's "what me worry" attitude is an example of how far mankind has
fallen.
As for how angels appear, as MEN, and without wings, Lamarr simply
ignored the scripture which I cited about how the angels who appeared
to Abraham were in the form of MEN who WALKED, not flew:
Genesis 18:2,4,16
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men
stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from
the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
...
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your
feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
...
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward
Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
The people of Sodom also thought that they were men:
Genesis 19:2,5
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you,
into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash
your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways.
And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all
night.
...
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are
the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out
unto us, that we may know them.
In addition, if angels had wings, it would be impossible for anyone to
entertain them unaware of who they were:
Hebrews 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some
have entertained angels unawares.
In summary, the portrayal of angels as resembling humans with two
wings is entirely a false tradition, unsupported by scripture.
----------
Lamarr continued:
Why not be for something, instead of contantly being against
something ?
Or, are you for, being against, virtually everything ?
It is impossible to be "for" God without also being "against" God's
enemies:
Psalms 119:158
158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because
they kept not thy word.
Psalms 139:20-21
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies
take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I
grieved with those that rise up against thee?
The enemies of Jesus Christ, whether atheists, pagans, or whoever, are
making every effort to destroy the spiritual message of Christ's birth
by commercializing Christmas and making it as worldly as possible.
They know exactly what they are doing with what is for them a
deliberate campaign.
Those who refuse to take a stand against this, for example by exposing
and denouncing what has been happening, are in effect helping to
conceal their activities. At best, they are lukewarm in their love of
Christ, Revelation 3:15-16.
- James
David' Chariot
James Hajicek wrote:
Greetings James,
I have a message for you. May I e-mail you?
Suenell
such for their pagan worship. They would dress the tree in their most
valued items & worship it. Do you not value your baubles that you put on
the evergreen?
"Lamarr Edwards" <shmo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6654-3F0...@storefull-2374.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Suenell
"Lamarr Edwards" <shmo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25363-3F...@storefull-2376.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Suenell
my coffee table since I don't participate in Druidic (or whatever) worship
with trees, tinsel, garlands & trinkets. I didn't find ONE thing with Jesus
in it. There was plenty of Santas, snowmen, angels, candycanes, stars,
moons, etc. Alas there was not one shred of true symbolism of the Christ
himself to be found in my local stores. This is what it's all coming to,
taking the Christ out of the season (which isn't even at the end of
December, rather in the autumn days.)
"Lamarr Edwards" <shmo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6654-3F0...@storefull-2374.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Paul
"Suenell" <Sue...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eqbWa.15830$5O3....@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> I went to many stores last winter to find a nice Nativity scene to
decorate
> my coffee table since I don't participate in Druidic (or whatever) worship
> with trees, tinsel, garlands & trinkets. I didn't find ONE thing with
Jesus
> in it. There was plenty of Santas, snowmen, angels, candycanes, stars,
> moons, etc. Alas there was not one shred of true symbolism of the Christ
> himself to be found in my local stores. This is what it's all coming to,
> taking the Christ out of the season (which isn't even at the end of
> December, rather in the autumn days.)
Then why were you looking for a nativity scene in the winter?
Suenell
around September!
"Paul" <pa...@tooley.com> wrote in message
news:57c83d28cb766dfa...@free.teranews.com...
Paul
> Because I knew they'd be "out" on the shelves. Not likely to find one
> around September!
But how is that not violating the 2nd commandment?