THE OLD AND THE NEW COVENANT
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had been kidnapped by Satan and we were held in captivity to sin and to
death, the ransom was paid to release us from that captivity. The manner in
which Jesus accomplished this was that he himself became a captive of the
strong man. Jesus entered into the strong man's house and he came into the
captivity and was held in a body of sinful flesh. It was through this
process that he was entombed into death but he broke the fetters of both
these captivating forces. He broke the fetters of sin in the flesh and he
broke the fetters of death because in him dwelt all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily.
Hosea 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave. I will redeem them from
death. O death I will be thy plagues, O grave I will be thy destruction.
Here is the beautiful passage of scripture that actually makes it abundantly
plain that Jesus has indeed ransomed us from the power of the grave which is
ofcourse sin and the grave itself which is death.
I Peter 1:18-19 The concept of the ransom from sin is beautifully expressed
here
V18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from
your fathers;
V19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and
without spot:
We were redeemed at a huge price, by the blood of Christ, the one in whom
dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And in this research of our
study, the Old and the New Covenant, we will deal with our part in the
gospel after we appreciate how we have been ransomed. We concluded in the
last study that it depends on our decision now, as to whether or not we will
take hold of the ransom and submit to it by believing that Jesus has
actually paid the ransom for us. If we don't believe that he has done
this, then we can't be benefited. So our study of understanding the
principle of believing to cooperate with the ransom is the study of this
moment entitled the Old and the New Covenant. But what does that mean?
The concept of whether we are going to be responsive to the ransom is what
is here dealt with in this verse;
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body,
and in your spirit, which are God's.
This is the response that is called for in return for our ransom. Now that
we have been bought, now that we have been ransomed, there is something that
we need to do - glorify God in our body.
"'Ye are not your own. . . . Ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify
God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:19, 20).
Will you give back to God that which he has ransomed with the price of his
own blood? Will you give him your reasoning powers; will you set them apart
for his glory? They are his; he has bought them with a price. Will you place
yourselves in the school of Christ, that your conscience may be enlightened,
that it may be a good conscience, a faithful sentinel to guard the highest
interests of the soul? Christ has purchased the affections; will you trifle
with them, will you pervert them? Will you place them upon unworthy objects,
center them upon human beings and make the creature instead of the Creator
your god to worship? Or shall your affections be purified, ennobled,
refined, and made to twine about your Creator and Redeemer? {TMK 63.2}
God will not occupy a divided heart or reign from a divided throne.
Every rival that holds the affections and diverts them from the God of love
must be dethroned. The Lord demands all that there is of us, and there must
be no reserve. Christ has purchased us, we are his heritage, and we are to
be honored by being co-laborers with Jesus Christ. Wear the yoke with
Christ, and daily walk with God. How shall we do this? By laying hold upon
the help which God has provided. The Lord has said, "Ask, and it shall be
given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you"
(Matt. 7:7). {TMK 63.3}
God has bought us, and he claims a throne in each heart. Our minds and
bodies must be subordinated to him, and the natural habits and appetites
must be made subservient to the higher wants of the soul. But we can place
no dependence upon ourselves in this work. We cannot with safety follow our
own guidance. The Holy Spirit must renew and sanctify us. In God's service
there must be no halfway work. {TMK 63.4}
This handles very powerfully the importance of our part after Jesus has
redeemed us. But now it depends upon us as to whether we are going to
cooperate with God in responding to this redemption price.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
V3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour;
V4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth.
V5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus.
V6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Here it is that God would have all men to be saved and to come unto a
knowledge of the truth. God has done the work through Jesus Christ who has
given himself a ransom for all, and he needs to be testified to us and we
need to do something in response to this. We need to come to the knowledge
of what Christ has done for us and to act upon it.
How does a person respond to the one who has paid out a huge sum to redeem
him from captivity and sure death? If a person becomes aware that they have
been kidnapped and that they are under captivity, and then someone pays out
a huge sum to redeem them and take them back to freedom again, what sort of
response do you think this would arouse in the person's heart? Wouldn't the
captive desire to serve the one who has paid him out? Wouldn't he try to
repay in some way? Wouldn't he decide that he actually wants to leave his
captor and return to the one who has paid out such a price to free him?
Listen to the appeal of the one who the captive needs to respond to, the one
who has paid out such a vast price to redeem the human race..
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no
pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way
and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house
of Israel?
We are captives to sin and ultimately to death and that God has paid a price
so that we would not have to be subject to sin and death anymore. He has
broken the power of sin and now he says I have no pleasure in the death of
those who sin, in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his
way. Now it's still left for the one that has been redeemed to turn from
the captivity of sin. The captivity has been paid out, but he must now make
a choice to turn away from it willingly- That the wicked should turn from
his way and live. So the appeal of the one who has paid out the price is,
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways because ultimately it's going to lead
you to death. Why will you die O house of Israel? I've paid your ransom.
Why do you want to stay captive?
In summary, if we want to receive and take hold of the wonderful benefits of
the ransom that has been paid out for us, we need to respond by making a
personal decision to turn from our wicked ways so that we might live. The
other response that is required from us is;
Isaiah 1:18-19
V18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins
be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson, they shall be as wool.
V19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land.
On this earth everything is heading to destruction. We are living in a
prison house that is ready to be destroyed. But Jesus came into the prison
house in order to take us away from it and to pay out the price of our
ransom. Now, it is up to us to be willing and obedient to be able to go to
a better land, a better country. If you will be willing and obedient, ye
shall eat the good of the land. You've been a captive to sin but Jesus says
"I've broken your captivity so get to work and work out the extraction that
needs to take place for you to come back." In a real case of monetarily
redeeming a person who has been kidnapped, once the ransom has been paid
there needs to be a further transaction between the kidnapper and the one
who has been kidnapped as to how they are going to be returned home again.
This is exactly the point of our study here. A program needs to be
developed whereby the sinner, who has been captive to sin Satan and death,
is able to find his way back to the one who has paid him out.
Now we look at the statement "if you be willing and obedient." God is
actually looking for cooperation with the one whom he has ransomed. In a
manner of speaking God says, You have been paid out but now you need to
follow my guidance because this is the way you are going to get out of your
captive position and be set free. And it's interesting that in the Bible
God has given an example of a people who have been captive and whom he is
working to undertake a process to return them to the goodly land from which
they have been kidnapped. That people ofcourse were the children of Israel.
They were captives in Egypt and God actually promised to pay them out which
he did. But before they entered the Promised Land, God took them through a
process of freeing them from their previous position so that they could
follow a track of walking away from where they were.
In Exodus Chapter 19 we follow that program of God to redeem the children of
Israel, which takes them through the exercise of being right away from their
previous captivity. Their example has been written for us upon whom the ends
of the earth have come.
Exodus 19:3-9
V3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the
mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the
children of Israel.
V4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles'
wings, and brought you unto myself.
V5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant,
then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the
earth is mine.
V6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These
are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
V7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before
their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
V8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath
spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the
LORD.
V9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that
the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And
Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Can you see the exact mediation that was just introduced here as an example?
God has redeemed them out of the land of Egypt, "now therefore, if ye be
willing and obedient.if ye obey my voice and keep my covenant, then ye shall
be unto me a peculiar treasure." You will be the ones that have responded
to my plan of redemption and I will make you a kingdom of priests and a holy
nation. So Moses takes these words back to the Children of Israel and
speaks unto them so that they might be able to make a decision as to whether
or not they are going to cooperate with God. And ofcourse in verse eight
the people promise, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." God reminds
them that they have been redeemed from captivity and he says. look, you were
slaves in Egypt and I delivered you and the people respond "Yes, all that
the Lord has said we will do"
Notice in verse 5 that there is the introduction of the concept of the
covenant where it says "now therefore if ye will obey my voice indeed and
keep my covenant". A covenant is an agreement, and it was by means of a
covenant that God chose to confirm the words of the Israelite people who
made the promise Yes, whatever God has said, we are going to enter into an
agreement with him and participate in this program of extraction.
Where was this agreement/covenant ratified and made binding?
Duet 26:16-18
V16 This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and
judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and
with all thy soul.
V17 Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his
ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and
to hearken unto his voice.
V18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as
he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments.
While the people were under Egypt's captivity, just like the sinner is under
Satan's captivity, they became very used to that way of life. Now that they
are going to come back to the one who has paid them out, they have to learn
and submit themselves to a way of life that is now very different to what
they have been used to under the captivity. Moses replays to the people;
You have avouched/promised/confessed this day that you are going to be loyal
to the Lord, and as you make that vow to walk in his ways, and to keep his
statutes, commandments, and judgments, and to hearken unto his voice,
likewise the Lord himself has also avouched. He has acknowledged your vow,
and he makes a vow that this day you are going to be his peculiar people,
and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments. So there is a covenant
agreement reached by both parties confirming and reasoning it together?
This verse goes into the detail of what the Children of Israel had to do
with this agreement;
Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience
of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be
obedient.
The people heard what God wanted them to do and they promised to do exactly
what he had said. Let us read verses five through to eight in order to gain
the context of what transpired.
Exodus 24:5-8V5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which
offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the
LORD.
V6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the
blood he sprinkled on the altar.
V7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the
people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be
obedient.
V8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said,
Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you
concerning all these words.
Blood was shed to ratify and seal the agreement/covenant made between God
and the people. Now when someone makes a covenant or a testament, it can
only be ratified by the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:16-17
V16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of
the testator.
V17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no
strength at all while the testator liveth.
Once death takes place, the agreement that took place before the death
becomes a testament.
Hebrews 18, 20
V18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
V20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto
you.
God and man reasoned together in the law. The Law of God was spoken from Mt
Sinai and written on two tablets of stone by God's own finger. The Law of
Moses was also handed down on Mt Sinai and this incorporated all the
ceremonial and judicial laws for the people which Moses wrote down in a
book. Then the men heard all the statutes and laws of those documents and
promised to keep them, and the agreement was then all sealed and confirmed
into a testament. There was to be a death, (symbolized by the animal
sacrifice), and once the death took place and the blood was sprinkled the
agreement became a testament. Now that is a very
serious/confirming/definite procedure, and once you have entered into such
a procedure, as the children of Israel did with God, there is no way out of
it, that's it. That is the way/path /program that God instituted to enable
those who had been redeemed to find themselves on the path to the Promised
Land. So what happened with such a powerful arrangement and agreement? Let's
turn now to Jeremiah chapter 31 to see what happened.
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of
Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them,
saith the LORD:
What a sad experience, this beautiful covenant was broken. But this was the
amazing thing, here were a people that had made an agreement with God, and
this agreement was designed to be the manner/path/program by which God could
free the people in physical reality from their past life of bondage and
captivity, to lead them in their destiny to the Promised Land, and they
broke it. The Children of Israel had not even reached the Promised Land
when they broke the covenant, they were still in the wilderness. When Moses
went up onto the mountain to receive the tables of stone, the people,
impatient of his return, committed idolatry by building a golden calf which
they danced around and worshipped amid festivities. In the absence of
Moses, the people had reverted back to their old activities in Egypt and in
doing so, broke their promises to God. Wouldn't it seem at such a time as
this that the people would be forsaken? They had not respected God's
appointed method of breaking their captivity to their former idolatrous
practices. After breaking their covenant with God, the people came to
realise all the more the true condition of their captivity. They had come
to discover that their old habits and customs in Egypt were still very
attractive and captivating to them, and that because of this captivity, the
hold that sin had upon them, they were too weak to keep all their promises
to God. But would God now permit them to be forsaken upon the realization
of their true condition, and in light of the fact that they had broken such
a solemn covenant with God?
Jeremiah 31:31-33 V31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will
make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
V32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day
that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which
my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
V33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of
Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward
parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and thy shall be
my people.
God makes a new covenant with the Children of Israel, a covenant that is
different to the first one because in this covenant the laws are to be
written in the peoples' hearts. Instead of rejecting the people who have
rejected His covenant, God makes a new covenant based on better promises.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much
also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon
better promises.
This is a better covenant based on better promises. The first covenant
ratified the agreement of how the Children of Israel were going to be
transferred out of captivity to physical freedom; but they broke the
covenant so God instituted a better covenant built on better promises. We
noticed that in the first covenant the Israelites promised to God
"everything that God hath said we will do" but they failed to do this. Mans'
promises, the one who has been in captivity for so long, have become
weakened through his captivity but in the second covenant there are better
promises to look to.
Heb 8:7-8 & 10 V7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should
no place have been sought for he second.
V8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the
Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the
house of Judah.
V10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after
those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write
them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a
people.
He found fault with the previous covenant. Where was the fault? Finding
fault with them and their weak promise which they couldn't keep. So in
verse 10 God makes a new covenant which is now based on his promise to man;
"this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those
days, sayeth the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind and write them in
their hearts".
Notice here the better promises? The New Covenant goes much deeper than the
Old Covenant which was based on mans' weak promises to God that he would
keep his laws. There is only one promise in the New Covenant and this is
God's promise to man that "I will put my laws into their mind and write
them in their hearts and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a
people." Here is the promise of the New Covenant and the writing of laws
into their hearts is to be ratified in the same solemn way as with the first
covenant, by the shedding of blood.
Hebrews 9:14-15 V14 How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the
eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience
from dead works to serve the living God?
V15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by
means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the
first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance.
The beautiful inheritance which was to be theirs was now made possible
through the mediation of a New Testament which applied the blood of Christ,
the ransom. Now there is a connection of the blood of the covenant with
this promise. The agreement became a testament because the ransom shed his
blood. Through this appreciation the ransom becomes a living experience as
the impact of the ransom begins to affect the mind of the one who has been
ransomed. The law that the sinner had broken, the condition of which held
him in captivity, is now placed into the heart of the sinner who is no
longer comfortable in the area of sin as he contemplates the benefit of the
shed blood of the ransom.
2 Corinthians 3:3 V3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the
epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the
Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of
the heart.
Here the work of Jesus the ransom becomes imprinted into the mind. There
has been a promise made that has been broken and it has shattered the mind
of the one who thought he was going to be able to keep God's wonderful
agreement and then failed miserably to keep it. His experience is still one
of captivity and weakness to sin. And he thinks to himself, "well that's it
now, I'm finished. Although I've been paid out I'm not even capable of
being able to follow the program that God has laid out for me to walk into
freedom with the one who has actually redeemed me." Now this is the mercy
and grace of God, instead of throwing out such a person in their hopeless
state, the Old Covenant that was broken could now be redeemed by the New
Covenant.
Because the vast majority of churches today teach that the Old Testament is
invalid, believers never really appreciate the true impact of the ransom.
To segregate the Old Testament experience from the new one makes people
think that salvation was somehow different for those living before the time
of Christ to those that are living after the time of Christ. They think,
"Oh well, in the Old Testament they had to make a promise to God but we don't
have to make such promises because the New Testament is the New Covenant."
The reality is however, we must promise to God just like the children of
Israel promised, and as we make such a promise, we will experience the true
depths of our captivity of sin and then we will gladly accept the ransom.
Galatians 3:22-25 V22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that
the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
V23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the
faith which should afterwards be revealed.
V24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we
might be justified by faith.
V25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Here is this beautiful explanation that we have been captive under sin,
but to help us to move from the captivity of sin by our choice and into the
freedom that has been provided for us, God has given us the old promise
which is here called the law, and this law that we have promised God we will
try and keep was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.
The Old Covenant was a harsh effort related program, because in our
weakened condition, under the captivity of sin, we realized that we could
not keep God's laws even though our conscience was being called upon to keep
them. This had the affect of making us truly aware of our weakened
condition, a condition that was unknown to us previously. In our ignorance
upon entering into the Old Covenant, we held the belief that by being
redeemed by God, we could just somehow comfortably float across towards him,
but the terrible reality was and is, we have to discover that we can't do
it, and it is the schoolmaster, the Old Covenant, that brings about this
awareness.
The law (the Old Covenant) is our school master to bring us unto
Christ, but after faith is come, we are no longer under the school master.
Once the New Covenant comes into effect whereby the law is written in our
hearts, there begins a process of looking to Jesus and seeing that he has
died for us. And as we come to appreciate that it was only by the death of
Jesus that the law of God could be written upon our hearts, our hearts
become free to engage in an intimate cooperation with this process of the
Old and the New Covenant. Sadly the churches today do not convey this.
In Bible Commentary Vol 1, we read that Christians today must actually make
the same promises to God that the Children of Israel entered into in order
to benefit from the Old and the New Covenant.
BC Vol p1103
3-8. God's Covenant Our Refuge.--The covenant that God made with His people
at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense. The Lord said to Moses: {1BC
1103.6}
"Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of
Israel: Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on
eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey
my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure
unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me
a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." {1BC 1103.7}
"And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid
before their faces all these words." {1BC 1103.8}
"And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath
spoken we will do." {1BC 1103.9}
This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord
made it with ancient Israel (SW March 1, 1904). {1BC 1103.10}
7, 8 (quoted) (Isa. 56:5). A Pledge to the Covenant.--This is the pledge
that God's people are to make in these last days. Their acceptance with God
depends on a faithful fulfillment of the terms of their agreement with Him.
God includes in His covenant all who will obey Him. To all who will do
justice and judgment, keeping their hand from doing any evil, the promise
is, "Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place
and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an
everlasting name, that shall not be cut off" (RH June 23, 1904). {1BC
1103.11}
Very emphatically it tells us here that we are to enter into the self same
agreement. This is the Old Covenant. It is as much ours as it is the
children of Israel's. So indeed the doctrine of churches today in
professing that the Old Covenant has been done away with is a falsehood.
The Father sets His love upon His elect people who live in the midst of men.
These are the people whom Christ has redeemed by the price of His own blood;
and because they respond to the drawing of Christ, through the sovereign
mercy of God, they are elected to be saved as His obedient children. Upon
them is manifested the free grace of God, the love wherewith He hath loved
them. Everyone who will humble himself as a little child, who will receive
and obey the Word of God with a child's simplicity will be among the elect
of God. {AG 142.4}
To make God's grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose
to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to
work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. {AG
142.5}
Let the human agent compare his life with the life of Christ. ...Let
him imitate the example of Him who lived out the law of Jehovah, who said,
"I have kept my father's commandments." Those who follow Christ will be
continually looking into the perfect law of liberty, and through the grace
given them by Christ, will fashion the character according to the divine
requirements. {AG 142.6}
There is the description which is very poorly understood by most people
today. What happens through the grace that is given by Christ, as they make
the effort to try and keep the law like the children of Israel did in the
Old Testament? It was a schoolmaster that led them to Christ, but as they
broke the law, they realized that their efforts to keep it were failing; and
in failing to keep the law they were driven more and more into the care and
into the help of Jesus Christ, where through Jesus Christ, the law would be
written in their hearts.
Hebrews 9:14-15
V14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works
to serve the living God? Your own works of trying to keep the law in honour
of your promises to God have failed.
V15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by
means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the
first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance.
After we have failed repeatedly to keep our promise to keep that law while
coming up out of this terrible captivity; the beautiful picture of the
ransom makes its impact on our mind. Without the Old Covenant failure we
could never truly appreciate the impact of the ransom. We have broken the
Old Testament agreement, but Jesus has died for the redemption of the
transgressions that were under the first testament so that they which are
called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. If we were just
left with the Old Covenant agreement we would have no hope. It was the
death, the ransom of Jesus that became fully appreciated by the person who
has entered into a relationship of promise in his weakness. And so by our
promises failing we become more reliant upon God's promises in the New
Covenant which Jesus's death confirmed. This New Covenant is written of
here;
Psalms 105:6-10 - this now talks about our part of the activity that is
needed
V6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
V7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
V8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to
a thousand generations.
V9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
V10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an
everlasting covenant:
This New Covenant (which was also in the Old Testament period) in which God
promised to write the laws into their hearts is here referred to as an
everlasting covenant. This is again expressed in Jeremiah chapter 32.
Jeremiah 32:40
V40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn
away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts,
that they shall not depart from me.
I will make an everlasting covenant with them. The everlasting covenant is
the covenant that Jesus ratified by his blood and the covenant in which God
promises to write his laws in our hearts. And it is the one who tries to
keep the commandments of God but fails that eventually senses the depth of
the beautiful sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is by this process that the law
becomes engrafted and deeply embedded into his heart by the precious gift of
Jesus Christ who has died for the broken covenant that we made with God. So
there is the everlasting covenant which is none other than that of the First
Angel's Message. What was the language of the first angel? What was the
message that he gave this world?
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the
everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every
nation, and kindred and tongue, and people.
There are so many precious dimensions to this story, but the appreciations
are not fully comprehendible to us until we who have been redeemed, have
entered into the program of the Old Covenant leading into the New. So at no
point in earth's history was the program any different. In the Old
Testament time the people had to make an agreement with God under the Old
Covenant and then God led them into making a New Covenant. For those now
living in the New Testament period after the death of Christ, the program is
no different, we are to enter into the same agreement with God that the
children of Israel entered into, the Old Covenant, and then we are to be led
along the same path into the New Covenant appreciation. So the everlasting
gospel becomes meaningful to us through the Old Covenant experience, the
schoolmaster (the law) that leads us to Christ.
May God lead us to comprehend these realities for they are poorly
understood. As we continue to study into the everlasting gospel, our next
study will further enlarge these meditations upon our mind. The next study
explores the Messianic prophesies that actually deal with the messiah's
work. Such appreciations will grant us a deeper sense and appreciation of
the New Covenant. But for now may we exercise God's program of the Old and
New Covenant so that it actually becomes part and parcel of what we are
studying. The object here is not to study these things merely as the
wonderful story of redemption or as a wonderful picture of hope for mankind;
it is to study this material with the appreciation that it is an active
agent in our own salvation
Mark T
> Jesus became a ransom to pay out the captives from sin and death.
#####################################################
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
#####################################################
IF
Jesus' ONLY point in life was to DIE on the cross
THEN
Jesus didn't have to wait 30 or more years to do it! It could have been
done as soon as he was born.
Take Jesus from his manager as soon as he is born as a baby and crucify him
outside the stable. BINGO! Problem solved. No waiting around for over 30
years. Everything Paul required DONE IN ONE DAY!
#####################################################
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
#####################################################
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FACEBOOK - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=682544827
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church
Mike Painter
> "vegie" <VE...@NOWHERE.COM> wroteth:
>
>> Jesus became a ransom to pay out the captives from sin and death.
>
> #####################################################
> For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
> Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
> #####################################################
>
> IF
> Jesus' ONLY point in life was to DIE on the cross
> THEN
> Jesus didn't have to wait 30 or more years to do it! It could have
> been done as soon as he was born.
>
> Take Jesus from his manager as soon as he is born as a baby and
> crucify him outside the stable. BINGO! Problem solved. No waiting
> around for over 30 years. Everything Paul required DONE IN ONE DAY!
>
problem.
duke
>"vegie" <VE...@NOWHERE.COM> wroteth:
>
>> Jesus became a ransom to pay out the captives from sin and death.
>
>#####################################################
>For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
>Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
>#####################################################
>
>IF
>Jesus' ONLY point in life was to DIE on the cross
>THEN
>Jesus didn't have to wait 30 or more years to do it! It could have been
>done as soon as he was born.
You're kidding - right??? God became man in the person of Jesus to **show** us
obedience to the Father. That would be hard for an infant to do.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Mark T
>>#####################################################
>>For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
>>Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
>>#####################################################
>>IF
>>Jesus' ONLY point in life was to DIE on the cross
>>THEN
>>Jesus didn't have to wait 30 or more years to do it! It could have been
>>done as soon as he was born.
>
> You're kidding - right???
No. It is a logic consequence of Paul's statement.
> God became man in the person of Jesus to **show** us obedience to the >
> Father.
I can't find anything in the bible to support that thesis.
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FACEBOOK - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=682544827
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church
duke
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>#####################################################
>>>For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
>>>Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
>>>#####################################################
>>>IF
>>>Jesus' ONLY point in life was to DIE on the cross
>>>THEN
>>>Jesus didn't have to wait 30 or more years to do it! It could have been
>>>done as soon as he was born.
>>
>> You're kidding - right???
>
>No. It is a logic consequence of Paul's statement.
>> God became man in the person of Jesus to **show** us obedience to the >
>> Father.
>I can't find anything in the bible to support that thesis.
Matthew 26:42 (New International Version)
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for
this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
Matthew 20:28 (New International Version)
28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give
his life as a ransom for many."
John 14:12 (New International Version)
12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been
doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the
Father.
vegie
saved by his life, by watching it and copying the perfect pattern.
"Mark T" <snailmail@1oclockrock> wrote in message
news:48cc7b55$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
vernono
"vegie" <VE...@NOWHERE.COM> wrote in message
news:eINzk.36874$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> you obviously didn't read the whole post. We're justified by his death
> but saved by his life, by watching it and copying the perfect pattern.
>
He came. He justifies those chosen.
It is a free gift. You can do nothing to earn it.
Nothing is said about "copying" Him.
The free gift is "FAITH"
He gave his disciples two commands.
1. Go tell the world and make disciples.
2. Carry a cloak, a moneybag and a sword
The rest will happen.
Mark T
> you obviously didn't read the whole post.
You obviously don't know me. I did read the whole post but there wasn;'t
anything of much worth in it.
> We're justified by his death
My God doesn't require a human sacrifice to justify anything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psalms 51: 16 - 19
Save me from bloodguilt,
O God, God, my deliverer
...
You do not want me to bring sacrifices;
...
True sacrifice to God is a contrite spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psalm 40:7
You gave me to understand that
You do not desire sacrifice and meal offering;
You do not ask for burnt offering and sin offering.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hosea 6:6
For I desire goodness, not sacrifice;
Obedience to God, rather than burnt offerings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means 'It's mercy I desire not sacrifice.'
Matthew 12:7
And if you had know what this means, 'It's mercy I desire not sacrifice,'
you would not have condemned those who are blameless.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note that the last two quotes are from Jesus of Nazareth.
Why does your god require blood, gore and guts???
Mark T
> He came.
--
Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap
tall buildings in a single bound. Look! Up in the sky. It's a bird. It's a
plane. It's Christ, Son of God! Yes, it's Christ, Son of God - strange
visitor from heaven who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond
those of mortal men. Christ, Son of God - who can change the course of
mighty rivers, bend steel with his bare hands, and who disguised as the
human Jesus of Nazareth, mild-mannered carpenter in Nazareth town, fights a
neverending battle for Trooth, "Just us", and the Trew Kristyun
Fundamentalist way.
--
"We're Christians! We're not supposed to think!" Fanny Wype ("Nudist Colony
Of The Dead")
vegie
all manner of conversation; 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for
I am holy.
Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the
LORD your God.
"vernono" <ver...@there.com> wrote in message
news:shSzk.5736$bG3....@fe99.usenetserver.com...
vegie
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according
to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
"Mark T" <snailmail@1oclockrock> wrote in message
news:48d06f2b$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
guardian Snow
> "duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>#####################################################
> >>For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and
> >>Him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
> >>#####################################################
> >>IF
> >>Jesus' ONLY point in life was to DIE on the cross
> >>THEN
> >>Jesus didn't have to wait 30 or more years to do it! It could have been
> >>done as soon as he was born.
>
> > You're kidding - right???
>
> No. It is a logic consequence of Paul's statement.
>
> > God became man in the person of Jesus to **show** us obedience to the >
> > Father.
>
> I can't find anything in the bible to support that thesis.
Zec 6:11 “And you shall take the silver and gold, make a crown, and
set it on the head of Yehoshua the son of Yehotsaḏaq, the high
priest,
Zec 6:12 and shall speak to him, saying, ‘Thus said יהוה of hosts,
saying, “See, the Man whose name is the Branch1! And from His place He
shall branch out, and He shall build the Hĕḵal of יהוה. Footnote 1See
3:8.
Zec 6:13 “It is He who is going to build the Hĕḵal of יהוה. It is He
who is going to bear the splendour. And He shall sit and rule on His
throne, and shall be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace
shall be between Them both,” ’
Zec 6:14 while the crown is for a remembrance in the Hĕḵal of יהוה to
Ḥĕlem, and to Toḇiyah, and to Yeḏayah, and to Ḥĕn son of
Tsephanyah.
Zec 6:15 “And those who are far away shall come and build the Hĕḵal
of יהוה. And you shall know that יהוה of hosts has sent Me to you. And
this shall be, if you diligently obey the voice of יהוה your Elohim.”
Maybe not for "Jesus" but for Yehoshua you can.
Pro 10:19 When words are many, Transgression is not absent, But he who
restrains his lips is wise.
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
Come post a message please, I'd love to hear from you. While this is
a moderated forum, the only moderation will be to remove spam.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is
everything. What we think we become.
Buddha
(Mar 16:2) (Mar 16:9) (Luk 18:12) (Luk 24:1)
(Joh 20:1) (Joh 20:19) (Act 20:7) (1Co 16:2) (Heb 4:9)
Each of these verses that have the word Sabbath removed.
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
http://www.ucg.org/index.htm
A Worldwide Sabbath practicing Church.
Luk 9:5 “And as for those who do not receive you, when you go out of
that city, shake off the dust from your feet as a witness against
them.” 6 And going out they went through the villages, bringing the
Good News and healing everywhere.
Mark T
>1 Peter 1:15 ... be ye holy
Why are Fundamentalists only holey instead of holy????
--
A Trew Kristyun is a deranged individual living in the current
Fundamentalist Dark Age who believes:
- The One God Yahweh is really three gods.
- Jesus, a finite Jew from Nazareth, is the infinite One God Yahweh
- A human sacrifice was required by God because God needs blood, gore and
guts in order to forgive sins.
- The Bible, a collection of fallible ancient Near Eastern books / letters /
myths, is "God's word" and inerrant
Mark T
> Then you obviously worship 'another' Jesus.
I don't worship ANY Jesus because God says not to ....
--
######################################
God spoke all these words, saying:
I the LORD am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, the house
of bondage: You shall have no other gods besides Me. You shall not make
yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens
above, or on earth below, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not
bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God am an impassioned
God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, upon the third and
upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me, but showing kindness to
the thousandth generation of those who love Me and keep MY commandments.
Exodus 20: 1 - 6 (JPS Tanakh)
#####################################
vernono
"Mark T" <snailmail@2oclockrock> wrote in message
news:48d34499$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "vegie" <VE...@NOWHERE.COM> wrote:
>
>>1 Peter 1:15 ... be ye holy
>
> Why are Fundamentalists only holey instead of holy????
>
What have you against those who follow the fundamentals of Christianity?
Oh, maybe its that you have so much hate and bigotry that you think you know
what fundamentalist means.
People with an education usually refer to "extremists".
vernono
"Mark T" <snailmail@2oclockrock> wrote in message
> "vegie" <VE...@NOWHERE.COM> wrote:
>
>> Then you obviously worship 'another' Jesus.
>
> I don't worship ANY Jesus because God says not to ....
>
Clarification
Actually Jesus said to go to the father.
No where in the bible is praying to Jesus mentioned.
Andrew
> "Mark T" wrote:
>> "vegie" wrote:
>>
>>> Then you obviously worship 'another' Jesus.
>>
>> I don't worship ANY Jesus because God says not to ....
>
> Clarification
> Actually Jesus said to go to the father.
> No where in the bible is praying to Jesus mentioned.
"And while they were stoning Stephen, he prayed
saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit."
Acts 7:59
vernono
"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
news:LM-dnWa246B1mUnV...@earthlink.com...
ONE
No instruction to others.
Jesus said pray to the Father.
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
>There are so many precious dimensions to this story,
>but the appreciations are not fully comprehendible
>to us until we who have been redeemed, have entered
>into the program of the Old Covenant leading into the
>New. So at no point in earth's history was the program
>any different. In the Old Testament time the people had
>to make an agreement with God under the Old Covenant
>and then God led them into making a New Covenant.
>For those now living in the New Testament period after
>the death of Christ, the program is no different, we are
>to enter into the same agreement with God that the
>children of Israel entered into, the Old Covenant, and
>then we are to be led along the same path into the
>New Covenant appreciation. So the everlasting gospel
>becomes meaningful to us through the Old Covenant
>experience, the schoolmaster (the law) that leads us
>to Christ.
This is simply not true. The Old Covenant is gone
and the Law was nailed to the cross with Christ.
Your idea that people are supposed to be under
the Law and then lead into Christ is simply not true
and to say that, is to say that we should not preach
Christ to people, but the Law.
--
Pastor Dave
"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without any quality
of persons. Some must be free, some surfs, some
rulers, some subjects." - Martin Luther
Mike Painter
in teh bible you want to quote.
Odd that people continue to quote from the OT as though it had any validity.
vegie
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according
to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
"Mark T" <snailmail@2oclockrock> wrote in message
news:48d344f3$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
vegie
"vernono" <ver...@there.com> wrote in message
news:SiWAk.12$bl3...@fe99.usenetserver.com...
vegie
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by
means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the
first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance."
He is the mediator for sins that are under the FIRST testament. We all
promise to do as God says when we become his children just like Israel
promised but we FAIL sometimes. Jesus died for those broken promises you
make after you've given your heart to him and also after you're baptised.
We know the truth but still sin and fail, he has died for that.
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:m32ad4hnqlbhse0us...@4ax.com...
vegie
below BEFORE the NT was compiled;
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works.
ALL SCRIPTURE includes the OT.
"Mike Painter" <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ff8Bk.641$Ei5...@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
> you've obviously not read Hebrews 9:15;
You've obviously not read all of Hebrews.
>"And for this cause he is the mediator of
>the new testament, that by means of death,
>for the redemption of the transgressions
>that were under the first testament, they
>which are called might receive the promise
>of eternal inheritance."
>
>He is the mediator for sins that are under
>the FIRST testament.
He is the Mediator for more than that! You are
taking that statement out of its time context!
And you missed the word "were".
You read the Bible as if it were written yesterday,
by 21st century Gentiles. Hebrews is a very Jewish
book and it is full of Jewish imagery that is found
throughout Scripture!
But you read it as if it is a Gentile writing and as if
the NT were written and then time ceased, until you
happened to open a Bible for the first time. How
very modern Gentile of you!
And you failed to read the following...
"In that he saith, 'A new covenant', he hath made
the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth
old is READY TO VANISH AWAY." - Hebrews 8:13
Not, "will someday, thousands of years from now vanish".
Rather, "READY to VANISH away"!
And it did, in 70 AD, when the temple was torn down,
stone by stone, just as Jesus said would happen within
that same generation!
It cannot be old and vanished away, if it is still around!
Furthermore, spiritually, Jesus nailed the Law to the cross,
which I will show with Scripture and then you will quote
Matthew 5, in which Jesus said that until heaven and earth
pass, the Law would be around. That is because instead
of trying to see if maybe your understanding of what He
meant by "heaven and earth" is off, you would rather
pit Scripture against Scripture and pretend that's not
what you're doing, because demanding that people think
you're right is all that's important to you. Coming into
usenet and pretending to be some "Biblical expert" that
no one recognizes you as in real life and the vanity and
ego involved, is what you seek! (:
People like you always get arrogant here, like telling
a pastor he's never even read a particular passage!
The fact is, that the temple system contained what was
called "heaven and earth" and parts of it were called
by these types of labels and that is historically documented!
But you're so busy making yourself into a self proclaimed
Bible expert, that you never bothered to try to understand
the New Testament from a 1st century Jewish point of view,
even though that's who wrote it (except for Luke, but even
he wrote what he gleaned from 1st century Jews)!
But if the Law is around and people are supposed to follow
it first, then before preaching Christ to them, do you tell
them that they must follow every law? After all, you don't
get to pick and choose what you want to follow! So do you
tell them not to eat pork, or shellfish? To stone adulterers?
You will surely try to separate off the Ten Commandments
and claim that we must follow them, but the fact is, that
the Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Law, which
is why they are repeated in Deuteronomy, where the Law
is summed up.
You will try to separate "moral laws" from "ritual laws",
but again, there is no separation and God made no
such separation!
You will try to claim that it is the punishments that are
no longer valid, but that is like saying that now God says
that it's okay to break laws that are still in effect and that
God has given us a license to sin, since if the Law is still
in effect, then it is still sin to violate any one of them!
The Law says to be circumcised and that means that:
"For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the WHOLE LAW." - Gal 5:3
And since that is the case...
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet
offend in one point, he is guilty OF ALL." - Jam 2:10
The fact is that God has never once said that it is okay
to claim that we must keep part of the Law and not the
rest! Nor can anyone support that claim with Scripture!
Where did God *EVER* state *THAT* attitude in Scripture?!
So we either keep the whole Law, which also means
performing animal sacrifices, since it is the Law that
that must be done when one sins and it means not
eating pork, etc., or you must decide that the Law
is no longer in effect!
So do you tell the people that you claim must go through
the Mosaic Law, before going to Christ, that they must
start performing animal sacrifices for their sins?! After
all, if the Mosaic Law is still in force, then they must!
But hey, why bother with what the NT actually says?
And why bother with recognizing the time frame?
But let's look at this and see where it leads us shall we?
Statement: The Gentile churches were given two rules
and two rules only. Neither of them was
obeying the Mosaic Law.
Objection: No, that is not right!
Response:
Yes, it is right!
"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them,
which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from
things strangled, and from blood." - Acts 15:19-20
Objection: The Law is still in place. Look at the
following passage:
"Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn,
and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new
testament, that by means of death, for the redemption
of the transgressions that were under the first testament,
they which are called might receive the promise of
eternal inheritance." - Hebrews 9:15
Response:
You are misreading the passages and ignoring the
time context that was set (as shown earlier in this
message).
The Law was nailed to the cross with Christ. In fact,
the Bible says that very thing, very specifically. Yet
each time this is mentioned, it is ignored.
Nigh = Jews
Far off = Gentiles
Middle wall of partition/Enmity = Mosaic Law
Ephesians 13-17
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes
were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition
between us;
15) HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh THE ENMITY,
even THE LAW of commandments contained in
ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one
new man, so making peace;
16) And that he might reconcile both unto God
in one body BY THE CROSS, having SLAIN THE
ENMITY thereby:
17) And came and preached peace to you which
were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Now what does it say?
1) The Law is the enmity and the middle wall
of partition that divided Jews and Gentiles.
2) The enmity was the Law.
3) The Law was slain, by Christ, on the cross.
You keep forgetting, that the Mosaic Law was
"the law of sin and death" and so, what you
are saying, is that God's plan is to keep putting
people in that. The reality is, that people are
judged on one thing and one thing only now
and that one thing is their acceptance, or
rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior and that
is very clearly stated in the Bible, by Jesus Himself!
John 3:16-18
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave
his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17) For God sent not his Son into the world to
condemn the world; but that the world through
him might be saved.
18) He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of
the only begotten Son of God.
He that believes is not condemned.
He that believes not is condemned already.
The following was written mostly to Gentiles,
but was written by a Jew and so, you must
think in Jewish terminology.
Handwriting of ordinances = Mosaic Law
Principalities and powers = Mosaic Economy
Colossians 2:12-15
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also
ye are risen with him through the faith of the
operation of God, who hath raised him from
the dead.
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened
together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances
that was against us, which was contrary to us,
and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities and powers,
he made a show of them openly, triumphing over
them in it.
Now what does it say?
1) It is by faith that they were saved, not works
of the Law.
2) The Law was nailed to the cross with Christ.
3) It was the very system some are trying to
keep people under, that He triumphed over.
"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin
is the law." - 1 Corinthians 15:56
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death." - Romans 8:2
Galatians 4:21-31
21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law,
do ye not hear the law?
22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,
the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born
after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by
promise.
24) Which things are an allegory: for these are
the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai,
which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
25) For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and
answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in
bondage with her children.
26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which
is the mother of us all.
27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that
bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that
travailest not; for the desolate hath many more
children than she which hath a husband.
28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the
children of promise.
29) But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit,
even so it is now.
30) Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast
out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of
the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son
of the freewoman.
31) So then, brethren, we are not children of
the bondwoman, but of the free.
Christians are not children of the bondwoman.
So you can go to the Old Testament all you want
and try to make it trump the New Testament and
contradict it, but it won't work and you do it at
your own peril!
We have the Law being abolished, nailed to the cross,
cast out as the bondwoman, powerless to save anyone
and yet, through all of this Scripture, some won't
believe it.
And whether you believe it or not, the Ten Commandments
are part of the Law and the above passages even mention
"Sinai". So don't hand me that, "The Ten Commandments
are separate" idea, because it just doesn't work.
--
Pastor Dave
Theistic evolutionists are out to please men,
rather than God. They claim to believe in a
virgin birth, people rising from the dead, water
turned into wine and yet, they don't believe that
God created the heaven and the earth in six literal
days, thereby making hypocrites of themselves. Why?
Because man says it isn't so and they would rather
try to please men, instead of choosing to believe
God and stand up for Him. Preachers who claim
theistic evolution are the biggest hypocrites of all
and are in the most danger. Why? Read Isaiah 9:16;
Jeremiah 23:1, 50:6. What do YOU stand for?
"...choose this day whom you will serve. ...as for
me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Jos 24:15
vernono
> ok how about 'follow'. you obviously follow another Jesus.
>
Follow Him is not pray to Him or ask Him, just follow Him.
He prayed to the Father.
vernono
> Then you obviously worship 'another' GOD.
>
> Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not
> according
> to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
Read the bible and do as Jesus taught. He is one with the Father now.
Father Son and Holy Ghost are one.
Jesus said to ask the Father.
Mark T
> you've obviously not read Hebrews 9:15;
You've obviously not read
--
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
--
" Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that GOD [YAHWEH]
has MADE him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this JESUS whom you crucified."
(Act 2:36)
--
Who is greater the ANOINTER or the ANOINTED?
The ANOINTER (the One God / Yahweh)
is far greater than the ANOINTED:
1. CYRUS (Isaiah 45:1)
2. THE PATRIACHS (Psalm 105:15)
3. ISRAEL (Habakkuk 3:13, Psalm 28: 8; 84:10)
4. JESUS OF NAZARETH (Act 2:36)
IF "Messiah" means "God" then why aren't Cyrus, the Patriachs and Israel
considered to be the One God (Yahweh) alongside Jesus of Nazareth?
Mark T
> Well Timothy seemed to think the OT had alot of validity as he wrote the
> below BEFORE the NT was compiled;
>
> 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
> profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
> righteousness:
> 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
> good works.
>
> ALL SCRIPTURE includes the OT.
Two MAJOR PROBLEMS with these verses:
1. The "all scripture" ONLY applies to the Tanakh as the New Testament was
not finished being written until the last book - 2 Peter (100-160 CE).
2. 2 Timothy is a FORGERY written 100 -150 CE when Paul was DEAD!
Andrew
> "God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
"His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
~ Isaiah 9:6
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted
is, God with us."
~ Matt 1:23
"Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"
~ John 20:28
Mark T
>> "God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
> ... Isaiah 9:6
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the "Tanakh" (JPS:1985)
Nevi'm / Isaiah
5. For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given us.
And authority has settled on his shoulders.
He has been named
"The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" -
6. In token of abundament authority
And of peace without limit
Upon David's throne and kingdom,
That it may be firmly established
In justice and in equity
Now and evermore.
The zeal of the LORD of Hosts
Shall bring this to pass.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is like naming a child Jesus / Yeshua / Joshua. It is a COMMON name
with a meaning that does not indicate that the child WITH that name is God.
Every person named Jesus / Yeshua / Joshua is NOT God.
In the same manner, every child named "The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" is NOT God.
In the same manner, Peter means "rock" but a child called "Peter" is not a
literal rock.
In the same manner, my name means "lion" but I am not a real lion.
> Matt 1:23
1. Jesus WASN'T named Immanuel.
2. Matthew got it WRONG because he used the GREEK Septuagint version of the
HEBREW scriptures!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look, the YOUNG WOMAN *[NOT VIRGIN] is with child and about to give birth to
a son. Let her name him Immanuel.*[Meaning "with us is God"]
Isaiah 7:14 (JPS Tanakh: 1985)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 20:28
1. Written 90 - 120 CE when the apostle John was dead.
2. Never stated by the historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
3. "I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD AND YOUR
GOD" - John 20:17. Does God have a God?????
Not ONE of your bible proof vomit verses is any kind of proof at all.
--
"We're Christians! We're not supposed to think!" Fanny Wype ("Nudist Colony
Of The Dead")
--
Mark T
> John 1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE GOSPEL OF JOHN
1:1-18
In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom.
The divine word and wisdom was there with God,
and it was what God was.
It was there with God fgrom the beginning.
Everything came to be by means of it;
nothing exists came to be without its agency.
In it was life,
and this life was the light of humanity.
Light was shining in darkness, and darkness did not master it.
There appeared a man sent from God named John. he came to testify - to
testify to the light - so everyone would believe through him. He was not
the light; he came only to attest to the light.
Genuine light - the kind that provides light for everyone
- was coming into the world.
Although it was in the world,
and the world came about through its agency,
the world did not recognize it.
It came to its own place,
but its own people were not receptive to it.
But to all who did embrace it,
to those who believed in it,
it gave the right to become children of God.
They were not born from a sexual union,
not from physical desire,
and not from male willfulness:
they were born of God.
The divine word and wisdom became human
and made itself at home among us.
We have seen its majesty,
majesty appropriate
to a father's only son,
brimming with generosity and truth.
John testifies on his behalf and has called out, "This is the one I was
talking about when I said, 'He who is to come after me is actually my
superior, because he was there before me.'"
From his richness
all of us benefited -
one gift after another.
Law was given through Moses;
mercy and truth came through Jesus the Anointed.
No-one has ever seen God;
the only son, an intimate of the Father - he has disclosed (him).
From Funk, Hoover and the Jesus Seminar "The Five Gospels" (Macmillan: 1993)
pp. 401 - 402
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note "it" not "He".
The text doesn't indicate that Jesus is God but that Jesus had the "divine
word and wisdom" OF God within him.
This is in line with Islam, Judaism and the early Jewish Christians pre
70CE.
--
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
--
"We're Christians! We're not supposed to think!" Fanny Wype ("Nudist Colony
Of The Dead")
--
walksalone
news:lcded45l9jr1r6dtj...@4ax.com
Wanted all to know that indeed, he can not formulate a argument of his
own & must therefore, counbt on his audiences ignorance of logic &
critical thinking.
From: john w <john w<no>@yahoo<no>.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.christnet.evangelical,alt.religion.christ
ian.adventist,alt.religion.christian.baptist
Subject: Re: Jesus - God
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:09:25 -0700
Message-ID: <lcded45l9jr1r6dtj...@4ax.com>
References: <6pOyk.36100$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
<m32ad4hnqlbhse0us...@4ax.com> <bPpBk.38306$IK1.15891@news-
server.bigpond.net.au> <48d6d00f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>
<LvOdnaQBMrk_YEvV...@earthlink.com>
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X-Complaints-To: ne...@qwest.net
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:06:17 -0700, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
> wrote:
>>"Mark T" wrote in message news:48d6d00f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
snip worthless quote mining. AKA circular arguments. One can not use a
book that is known to be flawed in its claims as the source of Guarantee
OF Accuracy. It does not work that way anywhere except Fantasy Island &
then only with the residents on the fenced in end of the island.
which wannabe this time jon jon, the small child [mentally] that thinks
because a passage gives it a warm damp spot, it must give a warm damp
spot to everyone else. It does not work that way, not all people are
paralyzied from the eyebrows up.
walkslaone who can't remember the time he did not require evidence to
change his mind, & xians like john buoy can not provide evidence except
or unless, theyt use their special definitions.
vegie
God in return promises to be our God. But as we try, we fail miserably so
God presents the atonement of Jesus. By receiving and applying that, the
law is written in our heart. That is the new covenant. Both covenants are
operative in our salvation. One is superseded by the other in our
experience. It depends on us whether are still under the old covenant. We
must not remain there. Many Christians are still under the old covenant
experience which will result in losing out on eternal salvation.
"Mark T" <snailmail@1oclockrock> wrote in message
news:48d76e85$2...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
vegie
God in return promises to be our God. But as we try, we fail miserably so
God presents the atonement of Jesus. By receiving and applying that, the
law is written in our heart. That is the new covenant. Both covenants are
operative in our salvation. One is superseded by the other in our
experience. It depends on us whether are still under the old covenant. We
must not remain there. Many Christians are still under the old covenant
experience which will result in losing out on eternal salvation.
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0picd41bghjg3iqsf...@4ax.com...
Andrew
> From Funk, Hoover and the Jesus Seminar "The Five Gospels" (Macmillan: 1993) pp. 401 - 402
Here we may see a source of Mark's confusion. He takes as an authority
this product of the ultra-liberal 'Jesus Seminar' instead of the word of the
living God, who made the heavens and the earth.
The 'Jesus Seminar' is a group of scholarly skeptics who reject and deny
the deity and resurrection of Christ, His miracles, and the inspiration and
authority of Scripture.
Their purpose is to promote the "Jesus" that they believes in, but not the
real Jesus that is revealed to us in Scripture. Therefore they presume to
attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.
How foolish for anyone with a logical mind to think that a group of so
called 'scholars' of today could by using subjective methodology, more
accurately determine what Jesus actually did and said than the authors of
the gospels, some who were His disciples who lived with Him witnessing
firsthand His words and His miracles.
Andrew
Mark T
> God presents the atonement of Jesus.
God doesn't require a human sacrifice in order to forgive sins.
> Many Christians are still under the old covenant experience which will
> result in losing out on eternal salvation.
I hope I get saved from Fundamentalist ratbaggery.
"Look unto Me [YAHWEH], and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I
[YAHWEH] am God, and there is none else [INCLUDING JESUS OF NAZARETH]."
Isaiah 45:21
Mark T
> Here we may see a source of Mark's confusion.
"Ah, brother," said the confessor, "don't you know that whoever calls his
brother Raca is liable to hell fire? Now you have the misfortune to lead
anyone who reads you into immediate temptation to call you Raca. ... "
(Voltaire -The Jesuit Berthia)
> the word of the living God
The bioble NEVER claims to be "God's Word"
> The 'Jesus Seminar' is a group of scholarly skeptics who reject and deny
> the deity and resurrection of Christ, His miracles, and the inspiration
> and
> authority of Scripture.
A Trew Kristyun is a deranged individual living in the current
Fundamentalist Dark Age who believes:
- The One God Yahweh is really three gods.
- Jesus, a finite Jew from Nazareth, is the infinite One God Yahweh
- A human sacrifice was required by God because God needs blood, gore and
guts in order to forgive sins.
- The Bible, a collection of fallible ancient Near Eastern books / letters /
myths, is "God's word" and inerrant
> the real Jesus that is revealed to us in Scripture.
WHICH one would that be??????? Paul's Jesus ("Christ crucified"), Mark's
Jesus (itinerant rabbi) and John's Jesus (logos) are RADICALLY DIFFERENT
from each other.
6 BCE
- Jesus birth
27 - 34 CE
- Jesus' death
50 - 60 CE
- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)
50 - 80 CE
- Colossians (May not be Paul)
50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews (Not Paul)
65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
- Source may be Peter
- Messianic secret
- Based on Deuteronomy / liturgy
- All actions could be done in one week
70 - 100 CE
- James
80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul)
- Ephesians (May not be Paul)
- Matthew's gospel
- Addressed to Diaspora
- Written in Antioch
- Conservative
- 90% of the references to Hell
- Based on Moses' life / Exodus
- Portrays division between Jews and Christians
80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter
80 CE - 130 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea)
- Roman recognition sought
- Gentile interested in universalism
- Focuses on spirit
- Based on II Isaiah
- Jesus portrayed as greater than Elijah
90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John (Not the apostle John)
- Apocalyptic genre
90 -120 CE.
- I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude
- John's Gospel
- Not the apostle
- Written in Ephesus
- Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee
- Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year
- Symbolic narrative
- Focus on Wisdom and Word
- Focus on self rather than kingdom of God
- No Ascension or Pentecost
100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy (Not Paul)
- 2 Timothy (Not Paul)
- Titus (Not Paul)
100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter (Not Peter)
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
First of all, top posting is considered rude and annoying
in usenet. This is not lazy email.
>The old covenant is the promise we make to keep ALL of Gods commandments and
>God in return promises to be our God. But as we try, we fail miserably so
>God presents the atonement of Jesus. By receiving and applying that, the
>law is written in our heart. That is the new covenant. Both covenants are
>operative in our salvation. One is superseded by the other in our
>experience. It depends on us whether are still under the old covenant. We
>must not remain there. Many Christians are still under the old covenant
>experience which will result in losing out on eternal salvation.
You did not deal with a thing I said. You simply repeat
your claims.
It is impossible that a Christian is one by the Old Covenant.
Being a Christian means having salvation through Christ.
Now until you are ready to deal with what I posted,
you are playing dodge ball.
--
Pastor Dave
The church does not determine what Scripture teaches;
Scripture determines what the church teaches.
If a tradition or experience is contrary to the
teachings of Scripture, it is not of the Lord.
Reason is a significant authority. But it too,
must be placed under the dominion of Scripture.
In other words, we cannot seek Biblical truths,
while questioning the authority of the Bible.
vegie
well, i had no idea about top or bottom posts! i used this through my
normal email program.
Jesus came to save us from our sins that is from breaking the 10
commandments. Many people think they can be saved while transgressing the
law. That is why the sabbath is the sign for those who teach the pure
gospel.
vegie
"Mark T" <snailmail@1oclockrock> wrote in message
thanks for the info. that's great.
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
>well, i had no idea about top or bottom posts!
>i used this through my normal email program.
Usenet is different than email. And FYI, it's not
"top or bottom posts". Allow me to explain.
Each response of yours to a specific point, should
be below that point, so that the flow of the discussion
goes along nicely. Understand that it is not just
you and me. There could be dozens of people
responding in this thread. How will anyone know
who said what, when, if it isn't charted out properly?
Your response to a point, below that point and
then proper spacing, so that the text doesn't
all run together. You should probably also limit
your line length to 60, instead of 72, so that the
text doesn't get all broken up after a couple of
replies to it.
You should also snip out text that is irrelevant
to what you're responding to. That doesn't
mean however, snipping what you don't want
to deal with and ignoring what someone says,
because it doesn't suit your doctrine.
I.e., Ignoring someone's direct response to what
you said and repeating your claim does not make
your original claim true. It simply means that
you aren't capable of dealing with any criticism
of your claims.
>Jesus came to save us from our sins that is from
>breaking the 10 commandments. Many people
>think they can be saved while transgressing the
>law. That is why the sabbath is the sign for those
>who teach the pure gospel.
You can believe whatever you want to. The fact is,
you cannot quote Jesus saying, "I came to save you
from your sins that come from breaking the
Ten Commandments.".
As I proved Scripturally, the Law was nailed to
the cross. You tried to dodge that, thinking that
ignoring what I quoted, means it doesn't exist.
You think you're saved by works. The Bible says
however, that good works are the result of a
true, saving faith that comes by grace. And
grace is unmerited favor. It is not earned.
If salvation had to be earned, then we could
never do it. If salvation has to be earned,
then there was no need for Christ to die FOR US.
The Law already existed and prescribed works.
What need then, would there have been for Christ?
Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of Go;
9) Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ
Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
that we should walk in them.
Note: Not of works.
Note: Not of yourselves.
Note: For good works, not by good works.
Now, as was posted previously and you ignored...
Response:
Yes, it is right!
Response:
Nigh = Jews
Far off = Gentiles
Ephesians 13-17
John 3:16-18
Colossians 2:12-15
Galatians 4:21-31
--
Pastor Dave
"Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in
the world believed that the world was flat? And
up until like what, 50 years ago, you all thought
the atom was the smallest thing, until you split
it open and this like, whole mess of crap came out.
Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably
arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny
tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?"
- Phoebe from Friends, regarding evolution
Andrew
do to for you. This is the essence of all that
is taught in the law and the prophets."
~ Matthew 7:12 ~
Jesus taught the true essence of all that
was taught in the law and the prophets.
That essence is love, and it is His law.
"Love is the fulfilling of the law."
~ Romans 10:13 ~
His law remains as long as heaven and
earth remain.
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass
away, than for one dot of the law to
become void."
~ Luke 16 17 ~
vegie
>>breaking the 10 commandments. Many people
>>think they can be saved while transgressing the
>>law. That is why the sabbath is the sign for those
>>who teach the pure gospel.
>
> You can believe whatever you want to. The fact is,
> you cannot quote Jesus saying, "I came to save you
> from your sins that come from breaking the
> Ten Commandments.".
>
> As I proved Scripturally, the Law was nailed to
> the cross. You tried to dodge that, thinking that
> ignoring what I quoted, means it doesn't exist.
> You think you're saved by works. The Bible says
> however, that good works are the result of a
> true, saving faith that comes by grace. And
> grace is unmerited favor. It is not earned.
> If salvation had to be earned, then we could
> never do it. If salvation has to be earned,
> then there was no need for Christ to die FOR US.
> The Law already existed and prescribed works.
> What need then, would there have been for Christ?
<SNIP>
> Ephesians 2:8-10
>
> 8) For by grace you have been saved through faith,
> and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of Go;
> 9) Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
> 10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ
> Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
> that we should walk in them.
<SNIP>
> You read the Bible as if it were written yesterday,
> by 21st century Gentiles. Hebrews is a very Jewish
> book and it is full of Jewish imagery that is found throughout Scripture!
You don't sound like a Seventh Day Adventist at all. Isn't God the same
today, yesterday and forever and he changes not? I thought his law was
immutable? A transcript of his character?
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Mark T
>>THE GOSPEL OF JOHN
>>1:1-18
>>In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom.
>>The divine word and wisdom was there with God,
>>and it was what God was.
> You must have searched far and wide [ and very low ] to come up
> with this sanitized "translation."
This is THE SCHOLARS VERSION. ALL the scholars have "advanced degrees in
biblical studies, religion or related fields" which is more qualification in
theology than you have.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Fellows of the Westar Institute include scholars with advanced degrees
in biblical studies, religion or related fields and, by special invitation
only, published authors who are recognized authorities in the field of
religion. Since the beginning, more than two hundred Fellows have
participated in the Jesus Seminar and other Westar projects, including the
Paul Seminar, Canon Seminar and the recently begun Acts Seminar. At various
stages of the projects, different Fellows have been involved in the research
and deliberations.
from http://www.westarinstitute.org/Fellows/fellows.html
The following is a partial list of scholars who were or are currently
involved in the work of the Westar Institute. To learn more about their
scholarly credentials, click on their names in the alphabetical list that
follows.
a.. Andries G. van Aarde
a.. Valerie A. Abrahamsen
a.. Martin L. Appelt
a.. Karen Armstrong
a.. William E. Arnal
a.. Richard L. Arthur
a.. Harold W. Attridge
a.. Robert Bater
a.. Joseph Bessler
a.. ? Edward F. Beutner
a.. Anthony Blasi
a.. Marcus Borg
a.. Willi Braun
a.. James R. Butts
a.. ? Marvin F. Cain
a.. Ron Cameron
a.. Bruce D. Chilton
a.. Kathleen E. Corley
a.. Wendy J. Cotter
a.. John Dominic Crossan
a.. Don Cupitt
a.. Jon Daniels
a.. Jean Jacques D'Aoust
a.. Jon F. Dechow
a.. Arthur J. Dewey
a.. Joanna Dewey
a.. ? John Dillenberger
a.. William Doty
a.. Darrell J. Doughty
a.. Dennis C. Duling
a.. Rubén René Dupertuis
a.. Susan M. Elliott
a.. Robert T. Fortna
a.. Robert M. Fowler
a.. ? Robert W. Funk
a.. David Galston
a.. Lloyd Geering
a.. Jennifer Glancy
a.. James Goss
a.. Heinz Guenther
a.. Sakari Hakkinen
a.. Maurice Hamington
a.. Walter Harrelson
a.. Stephen L. Harris
a.. Charles W. Hedrick
a.. James D. Hester
a.. C. M. Kempton Hewitt
a.. Jack A. Hill
a.. Julian V. Hills
a.. Richard Holloway
a.. Roy W. Hoover
a.. Benjamin J. Hubbard
a.. Michael L. Humphries
a.. Margaret D. Hutaff
a.. Glenna S. Jackson
a.. Arland Jacobson
a.. Clayton N. Jefford
a.. Gregory C. Jenks
a.. Melanie Johnson-DeBaufre
a.. Bob Jones
a.. F. Stanley Jones
a.. Larry Kalajainen
a.. Perry V. Kea
a.. John C. Kelly
a.. William Doane Kelly
a.. Chan-Hie Kim
a.. Karen L. King
a.. John S. Kloppenborg
a.. Ron Large
a.. Paul Alan Laughlin
a.. Nigel Leaves
a.. Margaret E. Lee
a.. Nina E. Livesey
a.. Davidson Loehr
a.. ? Sanford Lowe
a.. John Lown
a.. Gerd Luedemann
a.. Shelly Matthews
a.. Dennis R. MacDonald
a.. Brian Rice McCarthy
a.. Lane C. McGaughy
a.. Edward J. McMahon II
a.. Francis Macnab
a.. Loren Mack-Fisher
a.. Daniel Marguerat
a.. Marvin W. Meyer
a.. Darren Middleton
a.. J. Ramsey Michaels
a.. William R. Millar
a.. L. Bruce Miller
a.. Robert J. Miller
a.. ? Robert L'H. Miller
a.. Milton C. Moreland
a.. ? Winsome Munro
a.. Culver H. Nelson
a.. Rod Parrott
a.. Stephen J. Patterson
a.. Todd Penner
a.. Richard I. Pervo
a.. Thomas E. Phillips
a.. Robert M. Price
a.. Anne Primavesi
a.. Jonathan L. Reed
a.. Howard Rice
a.. Vernon K. Robbins
a.. James M. Robinson
a.. Stan Rummel
a.. Marianne Sawicki
a.. ? Daryl D. Schmidt
a.. Oswald Schrag
a.. Bernard Brandon Scott
a.. Andrew D. Scrimgeour
a.. Philip Sellew
a.. Chris Shea
a.. Thomas Sheehan
a.. Lou H. Silberman
a.. Daniel A. Smith
a.. Dennis E. Smith
a.. Mahlon H. Smith
a.. Graydon Snyder
a.. John Shelby Spong
a.. John Staten
a.. Michael G. Steinhauser
a.. Roy SteinhoffSmith
a.. Robert F. Stoops, Jr.
a.. Johann Strijdom
a.. Jon Sveinbjornsson
a.. Jarmo Tarkki
a.. W. Barnes Tatum
a.. Hal Taussig
a.. Barbara Thiering
a.. Joseph B. Tyson
a.. Leif E. Vaage
a.. James Veitch
a.. Paul Verhoeven
a.. Wesley Hiram Wachob
a.. William O. Walker
a.. Donna Wallace
a.. Robert L. Webb
a.. Theodore J. Weeden, Sr.
a.. James E. West
a.. John L. White
a.. L. Michael White
a.. Patricia Williams
a.. Walter Wink
from http://www.westarinstitute.org/Fellows/list.html
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
You didn't deal with the points I made. And now
you seek to fought Scripture with Scripture.
The fact is, that you are now misusing a passage,
to try and whitewash the fact that you have been
proved wrong.
I'm sorry, but I don't get diplomatic when it comes
to outright attempts at deception.
The fact is, if the passage you are trying to use
applies here, then we should still be stoning
adulterers to death. That is what the Law
prescribes.
What you want to do, is to claim we are still under
the Law, because you can't understand the time
line, nor the times/peoples involved in the Scriptures
and at the same time, claim that we only have to
follow such and such laws and not the others.
IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!
If the Law still exists and someone is under the Law,
then they must follow EVERY SINGLE LAW, or be
condemned!
There is not one single place in the Bible that says
it's okay to follow only the Laws that you pick!
Circumcision was required to be one of God's people
and Paul said the following...
"For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law." - Galatians 5:3
And James said the following...
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet
offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - James 2:20
>Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:
>here [are] they that keep the commandments of
>God, and the faith of Jesus.
You mistake them with the Ten Commandments.
Again, you cannot keep just part of the Law and
you are not saved by works, as I already proved
with the Scripture you snipped!
And if you think that anyone thinks you're some
fountain of Bible knowledge, because you knew
you couldn't deal with what I posted and so,
snipped it and think that means that no one
saw it and now you get to repeat your claim,
as if I had never responded with any Scripture,
then you are sadly mistaken and look like a fool
for trying to do so!
But here's one for you...
Galatians 3:1-4
1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you,
that ye should not obey the truth, before whose
eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth,
crucified among you?
2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye
the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?
3) ARE YE SO FOOLISH? Having begun in the
Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain?
If it be yet in vain.
Notice that to go to the Law, meant that everything
they had been through for Christ, would be in vain!
Why? Because they would be trusting in their own
works and that's what following the Law means!
You want people to follow the Law and do it to gain
entry into Heaven and so, follow the Law with this
in mind. But this is the opposite of what Scripture
teaches!
I do not advocate sinning. That is license. I do
however advocate liberty. And that is quite different!
You think that every time you see the word "law"
or "commandments" that it means the same thing
that you personally want it to mean. That's flawed.
No offense, but you have a long way to go and a lot
to learn about Scripture and especially the peoples
and the times, knowledge without which, it is simply
impossible to understand the Scriptures! They were
not written in a time vacuum, just waiting for you!
They were not written by 21st century Gentiles.
Pay attention and learn. I don't mean to be so harsh
with you, but you haven't said one thing that I have
found to be honest. You just want to stroke your
ego and be the expert (in your own mind) and you
seem to think that snipping the points that others
make will make them disappear and erase everyone's
minds and you can go on and be the big man with
the Bible and what it says! That's sad, really, since
it involves only ego and vanity. But hey, it's your life.
Should you change your mind, I will be here and
we can discuss things. But not by you ignoring
what I say and pretending it never happened
and then trying to fight Scripture with Scripture,
as if to say, "What you posted can't be right,
because this passage say...", when what I posted
was Scripture, which means that you're saying
that those Scriptures can't be right, which is
fighting Scripture with Scripture, as I said.
Just because you snip it first, doesn't mean that
you're not doing that!
Get honest and we can get somewhere! :)
And you really shouldn't treat me like I'm stupid enough
to fall for these games, nor should you treat me as if
I am some Biblical idiot who needs you to teach me.
At least show some respect for a pastor, eh? :)
--
Pastor Dave
The fact is, if you can't believe the beginning,
you can't believe the end and shouldn't claim to.
To disbelieve the beginning, is to doubt many things
that Jesus said. After all, He made it clear that
He believed it. If you believe in the Trinity,
how can you believe that God wouldn't know how
it all started? If you can't believe the beginning,
then get off the pulpit!
Mike Painter
>
> You didn't deal with the points I made. And now
> you seek to fought Scripture with Scripture.
>
> The fact is, that you are now misusing a passage,
> to try and whitewash the fact that you have been
> proved wrong.
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't get diplomatic when it comes
> to outright attempts at deception.
You would think a god would at least have the IQ of somebody who writes teh
rules for a simple game.
There might be an argument about a score of some kind being made but never
about how the score is made.
Yet thre are over 30,000 different sects all with arguments like this and
most of them telling all teh others they are going to hell because that's
not what some package really means.
The more fundamental the believers are the more rabid they are.
They claim they are the way the truth and thelight and that *their* church
is the same as it has always been. Yet the women wear things to church on a
Sunday that would have gotten them thrown in jail had they dared wear it on
a beach 100 years ago. So much for absloutel morality.
Knowledge and science is winning however anfd ou grow smaller every year.
vegie
i snipped as your email was TOO long, i wasn't trying to hide anything from
anyone. Nevertheless, your manner is trash. you don't even sound like a
Christian. I don't know what you are.
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
>I snipped as your email was TOO long,
It isn't email. It's a usenet post.
>I wasn't trying to hide anything from anyone.
So you claim.
>Nevertheless, your manner is trash.
You make a claim and when you are asked to prove it
and a rebuttal is offered, you continually ignore that
and just keep repeating your claim, as if snipping my
text and repeating your claim somehow proves your
claim to be true and you call my manner trash?! Huh?!?
>You don't even sound like a Christian.
>I don't know what you are.
And there it is! While you claim not to be trying to
hide anything, you once again ignore the rebuttal
I offered and attack me personally, to try to get
people to focus on your accusations about me,
as if you accusing me is somehow proof.
You seem to think that you just saying so means
that you have proved something. And then when
people call you on it, you attack them personally
and then claim they're the ones who aren't acting
in a Christian manner.
I'm sorry that truth upsets you so much and the
truth is, you had no way to discount my rebuttal
of your claims. For if you could prove your claims
to be true, you surely would have, instead of
attacking me personally instead!
I wonder, do you talk to a pastor this way in real life,
when they correct you? No, of course not! You
wouldn't dare! But here in usenet, we see the real you!
The you that has no respect for anyone and loves to
lie and trash pastors! You're full of keyboard courage
and you, son, are nothing but a paper tiger!
--
Pastor Dave
"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful
as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When
faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered,
neither love nor patience are in order... For
a defective life does not destroy Christendom,
but exercises it. However, defective doctrine
and false faith ruin everything. Therefore, when
these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy
are in order, but only anger, dispute and
destruction - to be sure, only with the Word
of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther