Henri Nouwen
**Rowland Croucher**
anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
More... http://1monthtomeet30interestingpeople.blogspot.com/
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher
Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/
Ted L
<rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
> 'Henri Nouwen knew he was gay from the age of six, but couldn't tell
> anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
> those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
> celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
> be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
> relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
That's not what God's word expects of them, apostate.
RWKnapp
<rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
> 'Henri Nouwen knew he was gay from the age of six, but couldn't tell
> anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
> those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
> celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
> be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
> relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
SIN IS SIN and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
eternal life, only you can not have both, one or the other.
Bob Young
On 1/3/10 1:27 AM, in article
94cf1d23-5773-476a...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
<rwk...@aim.com> wrote:
Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
membership. Sin is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
distaste for sin - even a thief becomes highly agitated if someone breaks
into his home and steals his loot.
Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone
write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and manipulated
by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any other example of
religious dogma.
Until preachers and their hangers on, like Raymond here, defer from
manipulating sin as a propagating tool - they too will never be free from
sin themselves.
Bob
Humanist, atheist, realist, sentimentalist Brit.
Man creates his gods in his own image,
then spends the rest of his life
manipulating them to his heart's content
R E L I G I O N � it is all in the mind,
an escape from life�s realities and hardships,
sixty percent ritual, forty percent fantasy
Oh how I wish there were a loving god. A god that would take care of man�s
ills and fulfill his desires and dreams. But I have the common sense and
intelligence to know that this is simply the way man desires things to be.
RWKnapp
>
> <rwkn...@aim.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 6:26 pm, **Rowland Croucher**
> > <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
> >> 'Henri Nouwen knew he was gay from the age of six, but couldn't tell
> >> anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
> >> those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
> >> celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
> >> be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
> >> relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
>
> > SIN IS SIN and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
> > eternal life, only you can not have both, one or the other.
>
> Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
> membership. Sin is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
> distaste for sin - even a thief becomes highly agitated if someone breaks
> into his home and steals his loot.
So what, the word SIN is a word from the Bible and the clergy are
suppose to teach the Bible and the Bible is their tool. A captain of
a Ship is suppose to use a ship. a cook needs a stove as a baker needs
a oven. They all do their job with zeal if they want the end results
to be the best and meets the need.
Then a thief is upset because of his sin and his reward for sin the
loot, is now being looted by a smarter thief. Sin brings more sin.
Showing people that, may help them stop stealing and then they have no
more future sin. Tools are good, what tools do the atheist use, some
book on how to deny gods?
>
> Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone
> write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and manipulated
> by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any other example of
> religious dogma.
It could not be before man was as there was no one to say it, or use
it. Doing wrong could be seen as sin. The word sin was not even
invented eons ago. Next are you going to say "life" is a word made up
for religious dogma? Pick any word and use that as an excuse, one
has thousand and thousand's of words to us. Simple means nothing is
holy as the atheist would say it had to do with some dogma by some
clergy. What a waste of good time.
>
> Until preachers and their hangers on, like Raymond here, defer from
> manipulating sin as a propagating tool - they too will never be free from
> sin themselves.
I am a preacher not a hanger, then one can use a pastor for a hanger
would be to get close to one and be a help to them. As a hanger it
holds up the coat instead of tossing it on the floor. I will always
use the term SIN as a propagating tool as that is what the Bible says
and our tool or book of rules is the bible. As a cook uses a pan and
cooks with it to make the product one wants to enjoy. I am free and
have been free, as I have the Holy Spirit of God with me and in me,
and God helps me to keep from sinning. Then if I make a mistake the
Bible says I have modern term, a LAWYER to defend me and help me and
keep me on the right path, his name is Jesus Christ. It does not
matter if you agree or not, since you do not have Jesus or the faith
to trust God, you can not understand what I said, or enjoy the
blessings that not sinning brings. Rom 6:17-23
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you
obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were
delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of
righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of
your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of
uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now
present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to
righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which
you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now
having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you
have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord. NKJV
>
> R E L I G I O N it is all in the mind,
That is interesting isn't everything all in the mind? One goes to
school to learn and put that in their mind so later they can get a
good paying job. I suppose we could also say A T H I S T I S M is all
in the mind.
So what is your point, If one has no mind, then they are brain dead,
and would not understand anything you wrote.
> an escape from life¹s realities and hardships,
I suppose if that was true, the church would never of had a history of
martyrs and all the death that unbeliever had done to stop them.
Hardships are part of being religous. So again what a silly remark.
Facts show it has no foundation in life and sure nothing to do with
escaping life's realities. Missionaries go into areas where the
police would not go, well knowing they may die, and the hardships
would be more then one could bear, with out Gods help. Again
something you could no understand.
> sixty percent ritual, forty percent fantasy
Not in any church or mission I ever been in and I been around the
world a few times and all kinds of places. Now pagan and cults would
fit that statement maybe as they like you have no God, and all your
life is one big fantasy as I see it, Bob.
>
> Oh how I wish there were a loving god. A god that would take care of man¹s
> ills and fulfill his desires and dreams. But I have the common sense and
> intelligence to know that this is simply the way man desires things to be.
There is a loving God and like a human father they let their children
learn from trail and error, and when they fail or fall on their face
and are asked for help they show up and help. Common sense teachers
that, one can not learn if someone else does every thing for them..
They also get very selfish and want every thing their way, as if they
are a god and God is their the child. Intelligence knows there is a
GOD and that someday they will answer to that God for all the
foolishness they have done.
Raymond
Bob Young
On 1/4/10 2:42 AM, in article
12c3211e-be88-4b16...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
<rwk...@aim.com> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 11:37�pm, Bob Young <alaspect...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>> On 1/3/10 1:27 AM, in article
>> 94cf1d23-5773-476a-99a9-df53c5d1a...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
>>
>> <rwkn...@aim.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 1, 6:26�pm, **Rowland Croucher**
>>> <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
>>>> 'Henri Nouwen knew he was gay from the age of six, but couldn't tell
>>>> anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
>>>> those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
>>>> celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
>>>> be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
>>>> relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
>>
>>> SIN IS SIN and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
>>> eternal life, only you can not have both, one or the other.
>>
>> Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
>> membership. Sin is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
>> distaste for sin - even a thief becomes highly agitated if someone breaks
>> into his home and steals his loot.
>
> So what, the word SIN is a word from the Bible and the clergy are
> suppose to teach the Bible and the Bible is their tool.
I know. It is a tool used to get inside the heads of congregations telling
them what they want to hear.
A captain of
> a Ship is suppose to use a ship. a cook needs a stove as a baker needs
> a oven. They all do their job with zeal if they want the end results
> to be the best and meets the need.
>
> Then a thief is upset because of his sin and his reward for sin the
> loot, is now being looted by a smarter thief. Sin brings more sin.
> Showing people that, may help them stop stealing and then they have no
> more future sin. Tools are good, what tools do the atheist use, some
> book on how to deny gods?
You know as well as I do - those listening to preachers are those least
likely to sin. Those who sin come nowhere near to a religious assembly of
any kind.
Unless of course your congregation is full of sinners !
>
>>
>> Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone
>> write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and manipulated
>> by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any other example of
>> religious dogma.
>
> It could not be before man was as there was no one to say it, or use
> it.
That is not what I said - read it again
Doing wrong could be seen as sin. The word sin was not even
> invented eons ago. Next are you going to say "life" is a word made up
> for religious dogma? Pick any word and use that as an excuse, one
> has thousand and thousand's of words to us. Simple means nothing is
> holy as the atheist would say it had to do with some dogma by some
> clergy. What a waste of good time.
>
>>
>> Until preachers and their hangers on, like Raymond here, defer from
>> manipulating sin as a propagating tool - they too will never be free from
>> sin themselves.
>
> I am a preacher not a hanger, then one can use a pastor for a hanger
> would be to get close to one and be a help to them. As a hanger it
> holds up the coat instead of tossing it on the floor. I will always
> use the term SIN as a propagating tool as that is what the Bible says
> and our tool or book of rules is the bible.
Well if you feel comfortable being influenced by words written a thousand or
so years ago [exactly when will never be known] by people who were
frightened ignorant and insecure - be my guest.
All I can add is that a book called the bible, if seen by any real god, it
would not last two seconds in it's presence before it was thrown out.
As a cook uses a pan and
> cooks with it to make the product one wants to enjoy. I am free and
> have been free, as I have the Holy Spirit of God with me and in me,
> and God helps me to keep from sinning.
Not so - your brain does that
Then if I make a mistake the
> Bible says I have modern term, a LAWYER to defend me and help me and
> keep me on the right path, his name is Jesus Christ.
Well he was almost certainly a myth. There is even nothing recorded about
'His' first twenty years from the cradle - strange that.
The story was probably born in the mind of some scribe probably close to the
year 600 and in his hurry to capitalize on it he didn't even bother to cover
the first twenty years of the life of Jesus.
All early myth writers suffered the same. The myth about Jesus curing a
leper is too ridiculous for words. THIS was supposed to be the son of an
all powerful god that loved all of humanity so Jesus could have cured every
leper in the land, if he cared. The myth writer knew of course that if he
told this lie the truth would be out within a couple of days when the next
leper walked by ! So he played safe and made in ONE leper. Too logical ?
Not for atheists it isn't
Lepers were forced by peer pressures to live in leper colonies. So 'J'
could have gone to one of these and performed a miracle of miracles.
That is 'atheistic common sense' clicking in
- but we cant have that can we ?
It does not
> matter if you agree or not, since you do not have Jesus or the faith
> to trust God, you can not understand what I said, or enjoy the
> blessings that not sinning brings. Rom 6:17-23
> 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you
> obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were
> delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of
> righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of
> your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of
> uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now
> present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
>
> 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to
> righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which
> you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now
> having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you
> have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the
> wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
> Jesus our Lord. NKJV
>
>>
>> R E L I G I O N � it is all in the mind,
>
> That is interesting isn't everything all in the mind?
Yes things we see and know to be real are in the mind as so are those
imagined things, they are also also in the mind
One goes to
> school to learn and put that in their mind so later they can get a
> good paying job. I suppose we could also say A T H I S T I S M is all
> in the mind.
>
> So what is your point, If one has no mind, then they are brain dead,
> and would not understand anything you wrote.
Atheists use their minds to think clearly and without clutter and without
blinders fitted, so the result is closer to the truth than is ever achieved
by those who have been brainwashed by others to believe impossible things
>
>
>> an escape from life�s realities and hardships,
>
>
> I suppose if that was true, the church would never of had a history of
> martyrs and all the death that unbeliever had done to stop them.
Not at all. 80% of preaching is devoted to just those two topics
> Hardships are part of being religous. So again what a silly remark.
> Facts show it has no foundation in life and sure nothing to do with
> escaping life's realities. Missionaries go into areas where the
> police would not go, well knowing they may die, and the hardships
> would be more then one could bear, with out Gods help. Again
> something you could no understand.
Oh but I do, I do. They have been programmed to do that good work by
others. No different from a suicide bomber blowing himself up to kill
others. He too has been programmed albeit from an entirely different
perspective
>
>> sixty percent ritual, forty percent fantasy
>
> Not in any church or mission I ever been in and I been around the
> world a few times and all kinds of places. Now pagan and cults would
> fit that statement maybe as they like you have no God, and all your
> life is one big fantasy as I see it, Bob.
Cults and religions are, in the early stages exactly the same. Some come
some go.
They will all go eventually
>
>>
>> Oh how I wish there were a loving god. A god that would take care of man�s
>> ills and fulfill his desires and dreams. �But I have the common sense and
>> intelligence to know that this is simply the way man desires things to be.
>
>
> There is a loving God and like a human father they let their children
> learn from trail and error, and when they fail or fall on their face
> and are asked for help they show up and help. Common sense teachers
> that, one can not learn if someone else does every thing for them..
> They also get very selfish and want every thing their way, as if they
> are a god and God is their the child. Intelligence knows there is a
> GOD and that someday they will answer to that God for all the
> foolishness they have done.
Well if you say so. I bet preachers have been saying exactly that since the
birth of Christianity.
By the way - what did we have before that time Raymond ?
Bob
>
> Raymond
>
**Rowland Croucher**
I've preached in about 700 churches, and haven't yet met a congregation
that *isn't* full of sinners...
<>
--
Bob Young
On 1/6/10 5:43 PM, in article 4b445b44$0$5423$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au,
"**Rowland Croucher**" <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
When early humans made our their gods [and they made them ALL up] the kind
of sin these gods were put there to prevent were not the kind your
congregation think about. In those days the sin was murder, theft of homes,
land and women folk.
Time to get our head out of the time warp and take a look around at the real
world outside. And the real work is not a set of rituals designed to be
perfomred inside of a chapel somewhere.
RWKnapp
>
> > >>> On Jan 1, 6:26 pm, **Rowland Croucher**
> >>> <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
> >>>> 'Henri Nouwen knew he was gay from the age of six, but couldn't tell
> >>>> anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
> >>>> those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
> >>>> celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
> >>>> be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
> >>>> relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
>
> >>> SIN IS SIN and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
> >>> eternal life, only you can not have both, one or the other.
>
> >> Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
> >> membership. Sin is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
> >> distaste for sin - even a thief becomes highly agitated if someone breaks
> >> into his home and steals his loot.
>
> > So what, the word SIN is a word from the Bible and the clergy are
> > suppose to teach the Bible and the Bible is their tool.
>
> I know. It is a tool used to get inside the heads of congregations telling
> them what they want to hear.
So the tool works, like your words trying to get into our heads about
atheist teachings, what is the difference? I sure any person that
deals with people and is their teacher wants to hear what we want to
hear. I know if I went to church and a atheist was the speaker, and
it promoting atheists teachings, I 'll walk, out as that is not what I
want to hear. Same goes with a Christian going to a meeting of
atheist to preach the truth about Jesus, I sure not is not what you
want to hear. Tools are suppose to work otherwise no one would waste
the time using them. Your argument is null.
> > A captain of
> > a Ship is suppose to use a ship. a cook needs a stove as a baker needs
> > a oven. They all do their job with zeal if they want the end results
> > to be the best and meets the need.
>
> > Then a thief is upset because of his sin and his reward for sin the
> > loot, is now being looted by a smarter thief. Sin brings more sin.
> > Showing people that, may help them stop stealing and then they have no
> > more future sin. Tools are good, what tools do the atheist use, some
> > book on how to deny gods?
>
> You know as well as I do - those listening to preachers are those least
> likely to sin. Those who sin come nowhere near to a religious assembly of
> any kind.
I know no such thing, I went to Church as a sinner and a bad one on
top of that, because I was seeking why a person cared for a Sgt. in
the Air Force that was drunk and left the church and could care less
about Jesus. I wanted to hear why that person cared and did what he
did, for one that going to hell can did not care. I and most converts
which I have helped in the thousand over the last fifty years came as
nothing atheist or pagans or life could give them answers while God
did, and if one wants to get healed they go to the hospital or the
doctor to seek a cure. Same with them that are lost know how evil
they are, they need help and such is found at many Churches. I have
overseen hundreds of Churches and now number in over a thousand,
because people came and heard the Gospel and today live a life in
Christ Jesus.
>
> Unless of course your congregation is full of sinners !
They were all sinners but now are saved sinners, not because of what
they did or do, but because Jesus paid on the Cross and by His
Resurrection by His payment of life and blood, they accepted they are
sinners, only now saved by Grace. Just because someone is unemployed
before they got a job, means they had to be unemployed to get
employed.
> >> Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone
> >> write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and manipulated
> >> by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any other example of
> >> religious dogma.
>
> > It could not be before man was as there was no one to say it, or use
> > it.
>
> That is not what I said - read it again
I did read it again, it seems you think just because on did not speak
they were not sinners. Sin never was hijacked it is what one does
themselves not something on hijacks or has to look for to get.
Atheist dogma fits the same storey only without a clergy.
> > I am a preacher not a hanger, then one can use a pastor for a hanger
> > would be to get close to one and be a help to them. As a hanger it
> > holds up the coat instead of tossing it on the floor. I will always
> > use the term SIN as a propagating tool as that is what the Bible says
> > and our tool or book of rules is the bible.
>
> Well if you feel comfortable being influenced by words written a thousand or
> so years ago [exactly when will never be known] by people who were
> frightened ignorant and insecure - be my guest.
I am comfortable with information yesterday, today or tomorrow, it is
intelligent to learn from the past so we will not replete errors
tomorrow. You are influenced by people that has nothing to support
their word of millions and thousands of years ago. You are
comfortable that you believe your family in the past could of been a
Ape, which we do have in the Zoo today, or a fish from the water and
you never have seen or know, since the last meal I ate, a day or so
ago, was FISH, I am sure it was not a relative, you be my guest.
>
> All I can add is that a book called the bible, if seen by any real god, it
> would not last two seconds in it's presence before it was thrown out.
And we are to take your world for that?? Since when did you speak for
any real god, or know what such god would do or say, you do not even
believe in any god, so this is all lies and such I do throw out. Put
it in a book and I could toss it into the trash.
>
> As a cook uses a pan and
>
> > cooks with it to make the product one wants to enjoy. I am free and
> > have been free, as I have the Holy Spirit of God with me and in me,
> > and God helps me to keep from sinning.
>
> Not so - your brain does that
Not so, if I am the cook my brain has nothing to do with it, the PAN
does without the stove or the pan nothing gets cooked, no matter how
great my brain is.
>
> Then if I make a mistake the
>
> > Bible says I have modern term, a LAWYER to defend me and help me and
> > keep me on the right path, his name is Jesus Christ.
>
> Well he was almost certainly a myth. There is even nothing recorded about
> 'His' first twenty years from the cradle - strange that.
Just "almost certainly a myth" means you have no way to prove it was.
such statements only show there is no fact it was a myth.
What would the first twenty years have to say, a Rabbi or a teacher to
be accepted as a teach in the Jewish religion had to be 30 years old.
Jesus came as the saviour of mankind, and the would not be heard or
cared about till he reach the age that people would accept to hear
him. Nothing strange about that at all. We know two years after his
birth some wisemen came not to a cradle no matter what the Catholic
church needs to make a nice story. The Bible shows it was two years
latter and then we find Jesus going as a child to Egypt and later back
and as he grow as a person the bible does say Jesus learned as a child
to be a carpenter and anyone that knows what carpenters do for a joy,
know well what Jesus was doing with his Mother and her husband work.
Nothing strange here accept why a person that seems to be educated has
a problem with or call it strange.
>
> The story was probably born in the mind of some scribe probably close to the
> year 600 and in his hurry to capitalize on it he didn't even bother to cover
> the first twenty years of the life of Jesus.
Probably means nothing. No fact it was or was not. Not an argument.
Just because you need a maybe it did, it is still no facts is nothing
to argue or prove anything.
>
> All early myth writers suffered the same. The myth about Jesus curing a
> leper is too ridiculous for words. THIS was supposed to be the son of an
> all powerful god that loved all of humanity so Jesus could have cured every
> leper in the land, if he cared. The myth writer knew of course that if he
> told this lie the truth would be out within a couple of days when the next
> leper walked by ! So he played safe and made in ONE leper. Too logical ?
Early myths were written by atheist. Myth are promoted by atheist.
No myth about curing a leper, I know first hand as I had a leper come
to my home with open sores, wet and running. I asked him if I could
pray to God for a healing and he said yes, I asked in prayer in the
name of Jesus for healing. I went into the house and got him
something to eat, and seen the sores were drying up and the sores were
being healed, right before my eyes. I also spoke to a leper area and
heard from them that God did heal them, and one could see fingers that
were lost on a hand and the rest of the hand was healed after prayer
and there was no more leprosy. You know nothing, there are so many
healed in these years and such it is silly for your remarks. You need
to read that story again it said only ONE of that group came back to
thank Jesus, and that is also logical. Just like today, people that
you or I help do not always come back and thank you for what you did
or done for them so what is not logical. I had people come back that
we gave a bag of rice free, no charge, want more and even curse the
giver for not giving the more rice, right there in Sheung Shui NT.
Give a person a meal and they want more, and if you give them money
many will want more and get angry that you even gave the cash. Seems
like some think we or you owe the a living if they know you or not.
What you have they want, how many really come back and say thank you.
A leper that is so sick, I would think if they are healed they want to
go home to their families to show them and never even think to go and
say thank you. If I could not walk and then something happens and I
can, I am going to call on the phone my family to tell them or a
friend etc. Later maybe I could tell the doctor or the person that
prayed a thank you. I know, we pray, people are healed and people
just go their way, and are happy they got healed but do not seem to
care to help supply funds so others may also hear or have prayers.
etc.
>
> Lepers were forced by peer pressures to live in leper colonies. So 'J'
> could have gone to one of these and performed a miracle of miracles.
When they came and asked Jesus did heal them. Same with salvation one
has to come and seek or ask. A car does not just appears in my
garage, just because there is a car dealer in town. One has to go and
ask and most will sell you a car.
Got to go, my wife has my meal in the oven and if I do not go and get
it, I will not have it. I like them above have rules to follow and
just because one wants to bypass the rules, does not get me my meal.
It is paid for, it is in the house, only I got to get up and go to it
and then since it is hot, need a fork and spoon, plate etc. they just
do not appear because the meal is there.
Bob Young
On 1/7/10 7:17 AM, in article
1c27a81f-2e7c-4a7c...@l30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
<rwk...@aim.com> wrote:
> On Jan 5, 11:42�pm, Bob Young <alaspect...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>> On 1/4/10 2:42 AM, in article
>> 12c3211e-be88-4b16-95fc-675da1f58...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
>>
>>>>>> On Jan 1, 6:26�pm, **Rowland Croucher**
>>>>> <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite> wrote:
>>>>>> 'Henri Nouwen knew he was gay from the age of six, but couldn't tell
>>>>>> anyone except a small trusted circle of friends later in his life. To
>>>>>> those with a homosexual orientation who asked his advice, he recommended
>>>>>> celibacy as a vocation; but although he didn't expect most gay people to
>>>>>> be celibate he did expect them to be... in a relationship - a covenant
>>>>>> relationship - as he would expect of heterosexuals...'
>>
>>>>> SIN IS SIN and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
>>>>> eternal life, only you can not have both, one or the other.
>>
>>>> Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
>>>> membership. Sin is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
>>>> distaste for sin - even a thief becomes highly agitated if someone breaks
>>>> into his home and steals his loot.
>>
>>> So what, the word SIN is a word from the Bible and the clergy are
>>> suppose to teach the Bible and the Bible is their tool.
>>
>> I know. �It is a tool used to get inside the heads of congregations telling
>> them what they want to hear.
>
> So the tool works,
Of course it works. What is important is whether the concept is reliable
and whether the teaching is really being done to prevent those in the
congregation from committing their small sins as they may well do, or
whether it is there simply to let them hear what they have been programmed
to hear for years and what they want to hear in order to leave at the end of
the service and go home feeling is some strange way that they have been
saved. 'Saved' another piece of religious dogma used by preaches in roughly
the same manner.
like your words trying to get into our heads about
> atheist teachings, what is the difference?
H U G E Difference. All we do is question the antics of various religions
around the world asking whether it is right and proper for young children to
be inculcated with religious beliefs when all along that is all they are
'beliefs' that cannot be verified, simply supported by 'faith' it is all
wrong.
I sure any person that
> deals with people and is their teacher wants to hear what we want to
> hear.
Indeed they do as I pointed out already above.
I know if I went to church and a atheist was the speaker, and
> it promoting atheists teachings, I 'll walk, out as that is not what I
> want to hear.
You may. 89% may. The rest may well stay behind to hear another point of
view. It is exactly the blinkered [blindered] world of religion that makes
it what it is. A cult of created by men that may not be questioned by man,
even though the whole concept is man made.
It is wrong.
Same goes with a Christian going to a meeting of
> atheist to preach the truth about Jesus, I sure not is not what you
> want to hear.
All I would want to hear would be answers to some questions:
Where is the proof 'He; ever existed
Why are his first twenty years unrecorded
Why did he cure one leper and not ALL the lepers [ same goes for the
crippled and lame]
Tools are suppose to work otherwise no one would waste
> the time using them. Your argument is null.
No I have just demonstrated that your is
>
>>> � A captain of
>>> a Ship is suppose to use a ship. a cook needs a stove as a baker needs
>>> a oven. �They all do their job with zeal if they want the end results
>>> to be the best and meets the need.
>>
>>> Then a thief is upset because of his sin and his reward for sin the
>>> loot, is now being looted by a smarter thief. �Sin brings more sin.
>>> Showing people that, may help them stop stealing and then they have no
>>> more future sin. �Tools are good, what tools do the atheist use, some
>>> book on how to deny gods?
>>
>> You know as well as I do - those listening to preachers are those least
>> likely to sin. �Those who sin come nowhere near to a religious assembly of
>> any kind.
>
> I know no such thing, I went to Church as a sinner and a bad one on
> top of that, because I was seeking why a person cared for a Sgt.
Yes story heard before. I bet you use it a lot. Fact remains you are blind
to the fact that 99% of religious people become that way due to peer
pressures
in
> the Air Force that was drunk and left the church and could care less
> about Jesus. I wanted to hear why that person cared and did what he
> did, for one that going to hell can did not care. I and most converts
> which I have helped in the thousand over the last fifty years came as
> nothing atheist or pagans or life could give them answers while God
> did, and if one wants to get healed they go to the hospital or the
> doctor to seek a cure. Same with them that are lost know how evil
> they are, they need help and such is found at many Churches. I have
> overseen hundreds of Churches and now number in over a thousand,
> because people came and heard the Gospel and today live a life in
> Christ Jesus.
>
>>
>> Unless of course your congregation is full of sinners !
>
> They were all sinners but now are saved sinners, not because of what
> they did or do, but because Jesus paid on the Cross and by His
> Resurrection by His payment of life and blood,
That concept is so childish it beggars any response.
This simple tale was put together for people of yesterday, simple peasants.
In case you had not noticed Raymond it is now year 2010
they accepted they are
> sinners, only now saved by Grace.
Grace' ? ! More relgiobabble
Just because someone is unemployed
> before they got a job, means they had to be unemployed to get
> employed.
>
>>>> Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone
>>>> write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and manipulated
>>>> by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any other example of
>>>> religious dogma.
>>
>>> It could not be before man was as there was no one to say it, or use
>>> it.
>>
>> That is not what I said - read it again
>
> I did read it again, it seems you think just because on did not speak
> they were not sinners.
READ IT AGAIN that is the opposite of what I said.
OK I will make it easy for you - here it is again:
Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone
write
Sin never was hijacked it is what one does
> themselves not something on hijacks or has to look for to get.
> Atheist dogma fits the same storey only without a clergy.
The concept of sin is hijacked by the priesthood - you use it all the time -
right ?
>
>
>>> I am a preacher not a hanger, then one can use a pastor for a hanger
>>> would be to get close to one and be a help to them. �As a hanger it
>>> holds up the coat instead of tossing it on the floor. I will always
>>> use the term SIN as a propagating tool as that is what the Bible says
>>> and our tool or book of rules is the bible.
>>
>> Well if you feel comfortable being influenced by words written a thousand or
>> so years ago [exactly when will never be known] by people who were
>> frightened ignorant and insecure - be my guest.
>
> I am comfortable with information yesterday, today or tomorrow, it is
> intelligent to learn from the past so we will not replete errors
> tomorrow.
Weak answer. How do you know all of the bible was not written by men around
about the year 600? You don't and you cannot prove anything about the book.
Ask yourself a simple question - Why one earth would a god who they claim
created the entire universe need or want to put it's message over through an
old book that cannot be verified, written by humans. Makes no sense at all.
Ask another question. 'Why is this god referred to as a 'He' ?
Simple - 'It' was created by early men so the 'He' bit came perfectly
natural.
Had you not noticed Raymond during all of your worldly travels that homo
sapiens is basically arrogant and deep down quite insecure. Hence he needs
gods to prop himself up and preachers to prop his gods up ! A I forgot,
maybe during all of these travels you never bothered once to remove your
blinders
You are influenced by people that has nothing to support
> their word of millions and thousands of years ago. You are
> comfortable that you believe your family in the past could of been a
> Ape, which we do have in the Zoo today, or a fish from the water and
> you never have seen or know, since the last meal I ate, a day or so
> ago, was FISH, I am sure it was not a relative, you be my guest.
Yes evolutionists have determined all land animals including us stared life
in the water and did not emerge until 400 million years ago. It was
announced today in the media. Watch out for it.
>
>
>> All I can add is that a book called the bible, if seen by any real god, it
>> would not last two seconds in it's presence before it was thrown out.
>
> And we are to take your world for that??
I suggest you take my 'observation' and deal with it.
Since when did you speak for
> any real god, or know what such god would do or say, you do not even
> believe in any god, so this is all lies and such I do throw out. Put
> it in a book and I could toss it into the trash.
Sure you would, it's those damned blinders getting in the way again
>
>> � As a cook uses a pan and
>>
>>> cooks with it to make the product one wants to enjoy. �I am free and
>>> have been free, as I have the Holy Spirit of God with me and in me,
>>> and God helps me to keep from sinning.
>>
>> Not so - your brain does that
>
> Not so, if I am the cook my brain has nothing to do with it, the PAN
> does without the stove or the pan nothing gets cooked, no matter how
> great my brain is.
>
>>
>> � Then if I make a mistake the
>>
>>> Bible says I have modern term, a LAWYER to defend me and help me and
>>> keep me on the right path, his name is Jesus Christ.
>>
>> Well he was almost certainly a myth. �There is even nothing recorded about
>> 'His' first twenty years from the cradle - strange that.
>
> Just "almost certainly a myth" means you have no way to prove it was.
I have a far greater chance of proving that statement than you have of
proving He ever existed - right ?
> such statements only show there is no fact it was a myth.
> What would the first twenty years have to say, a Rabbi or a teacher to
> be accepted as a teach in the Jewish religion had to be 30 years old.
We are not talking here about a Rabbi we are talking about the so called
'son of a god that created everything'
He lived as a boy and nothing recorded. Sheer nonsense. The myth writers
made a boo boo, as usual - religions are full of them. Why / Because early
simple man made them up as you should know being and intelligently fella an
all !
> Jesus came as the saviour of mankind,
So the concept of your religion claims. Ask a Hindu he will have a
different viewpoint - does that register up there at all ?
and the would not be heard or
> cared about till he reach the age that people would accept to hear
> him. Nothing strange about that at all. We know two years after his
> birth some wisemen came not to a cradle no matter what the Catholic
> church needs to make a nice story. The Bible shows it was two years
> latter and then we find Jesus going as a child to Egypt and later back
> and as he grow as a person the bible does say Jesus learned as a child
> to be a carpenter and anyone that knows what carpenters do for a joy,
> know well what Jesus was doing with his Mother and her husband work.
> Nothing strange here accept why a person that seems to be educated has
> a problem with or call it strange.
No educated person believes words written in a book about 1,500 years ago
about claimed happening 500 years before that my friend. To believe that
one has to be brainwashed !
>
>>
>> The story was probably born in the mind of some scribe probably close to the
>> year 600 and in his hurry to capitalize on it he didn't even bother to cover
>> the first twenty years of the life of Jesus.
>
> Probably means nothing. No fact it was or was not.
Then provide the proof
Not an argument.
> Just because you need a maybe it did, it is still no facts is nothing
> to argue or prove anything.
>
>>
>> All early myth writers suffered the same. �The myth about Jesus curing a
>> leper is too ridiculous for words. �THIS was supposed to be the son of an
>> all powerful god that loved all of humanity so Jesus could have cured every
>> leper in the land, if he cared. �The myth writer knew of course that if he
>> told this lie the truth would be out within a couple of days when the next
>> leper walked by ! So he played safe and made in ONE leper. �Too logical ?
>
> Early myths were written by atheist.
A clear indication that you are beaten before you start.
Myth are promoted by atheist.
> No myth about curing a leper, I know first hand as I had a leper come
> to my home with open sores, wet and running.
We are not talking about YOU Raymond we are talking about a man they claim
was the son of a god that created EVERYTHING
Man is good at healing others, at least some men and women are. Which does
nothing to challenge that fact that man is also good at making up gods, as
any study of religions quickly shows.
>>
>> Lepers were forced by peer pressures to live in leper colonies. �So 'J'
>> could have gone to one of these and performed a miracle of miracles.
>
> When they came and asked Jesus did heal them.
2,000 plus years ago and you KNOW that ?
Grow up
Same with salvation one
> has to come and seek or ask. A car does not just appears in my
> garage, just because there is a car dealer in town. One has to go and
> ask and most will sell you a car.
See my last comment above, you are going downhill fast Raymond.
>
> Got to go, my wife has my meal in the oven and if I do not go and get
> it, I will not have it.
Groan - WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GODS AND THEIR IMAGINARY SONS THAT DIE AND COME
ALIVE AGAIN AND THEN FLOAT SKYWARDS INTO THE CLOUDS WHERE WE NOW FLY JET
FIGHTERS - *NOT WIFES*
Wives exist - gods DO N O T
I like them above have rules to follow and
> just because one wants to bypass the rules, does not get me my meal.
> It is paid for, it is in the house, only I got to get up and go to it
> and then since it is hot, need a fork and spoon, plate etc. they just
> do not appear because the meal is there.
>
Sigh.
RWKnapp
>
> > >> I know. It is a tool used to get inside the heads of congregations telling
> >> them what they want to hear.
>
> > So the tool works,
>
> Of course it works. What is important is whether the concept is reliable
> and whether the teaching is really being done to prevent those in the
> congregation from committing their small sins as they may well do, or
> whether it is there simply to let them hear what they have been programmed
> to hear for years and what they want to hear in order to leave at the end of
> the service and go home feeling is some strange way that they have been
> saved. 'Saved' another piece of religious dogma used by preaches in roughly
> the same manner.
Saved is also dogma of the military, and anyone that was lost or had a
problem where they could be hurt. Great for preachers to teach about
such things. Ignorants is not what we need in the lives of people
that deal with others. One that is wise does want to know about these
matters.
> like your words trying to get into our heads about
I not sure if that was your words or mine, then if what is said does
not get into your head, why say anything.
> > atheist teachings, what is the difference?
>
> H U G E Difference. All we do is question the antics of various religions
> around the world asking whether it is right and proper for young children to
> be inculcated with religious beliefs when all along that is all they are
> 'beliefs' that cannot be verified, simply supported by 'faith' it is all wrong.
It is only a HUGE difference because you have to believe that to
remain an atheist. It seems your dogma about your antics and
questions doctrine is no different from what you claim the church
does. Your teachings are also "beliefs" yours, nothing different and
sure not H U G E ones.
>
> I sure any person that
>
> > deals with people and is their teacher wants to hear what we want to
> > hear.
>
> Indeed they do as I pointed out already above.
As I also pointed out above, again seems a Christian and an Atheist
both try to win minds of the people. Nothing new here.
>
> I know if I went to church and a atheist was the speaker, and
>
> > it promoting atheists teachings, I 'll walk, out as that is not what I
> > want to hear.
>
> You may. 89% may. The rest may well stay behind to hear another point of
> view. It is exactly the blinkered [blindered] world of religion that makes
> it what it is. A cult of created by men that may not be questioned by man,
> even though the whole concept is man made.
Again the term "MAY" means nothing one can say one percent may. or
zero may, such shows the one side trying to think people want what
they have. Your terms you apple to religion are the same as your own
atheist person or group. A atheist concept then is seen as whole man
made concept. Since for what ever reason you seem to thing that is a
point for you, it only points that all you do is the same you claim
the religions people claim or does.
>
> It is wrong.
That means what"
>
> > their word of millions and thousands of years ago. You are
> > comfortable that you believe your family in the past could of been a
> > Ape, which we do have in the Zoo today, or a fish from the water and
> > you never have seen or know, since the last meal I ate, a day or so
> > ago, was FISH, I am sure it was not a relative, you be my guest.
>
> Yes evolutionists have determined all land animals including us stared life
> in the water and did not emerge until 400 million years ago. It was
> announced today in the media. Watch out for it.
Yes this is self perversion, they say they are correct because they
say so, that seems like a faith teaching only not from a church. It
determines from its own studies that only prove they agree with
themselves. You point to the Church using the Bible for proof and
reject it, but here you agree with the same kind of story only it
happens to fit what you want to accept. They can determine what they
want they have nothing but themselves to say something is 400 million
years ago, while last year I found a report that all that was a
mistake by another group and really it is billions of years old, why
not a trillion, nothing over a few thousand years maybe ten can be
proven by facts found. It can be announced today and in the media all
they like, does not make anything they state about such years, facts
or truth. Watch the Religion TV media on cable or the Internet and
learn the other side and hear why such evolutionist are ignorant by
the science of today by teachers and professional people. One side
over the other, just because you like evolutionist and we think they
are silly or worse, does not prove who is right. The Christian talks
about billions and unending afterlife for salvation everlasting life,
just because you don't like it does not make it not happen, it is
future it may happen or not, that is future. To deal and make
statements about the PAST and what did happen, is not just having
faith in what evolutionist believe or there dogma, prove it, not by
themselves but by facts. Get us something that is a million years
old on earth that is dated with some marking or lettering that says
so. Try a billion if you like it is all the faith teachings of the
atheist.
>> All I can add is that a book called the bible, if seen by any real god, it
> >> would not last two seconds in it's presence before it was thrown out.
>
> > And we are to take your world for that??
>
> I suggest you take my 'observation' and deal with it.
Nope no facts, and your observation is learned from where, what
college or facts that you can prove do you have, I not deal with your
fantasy or your myths.
>
> Since when did you speak for
>
> > any real god, or know what such god would do or say, you do not even
> > believe in any god, so this is all lies and such I do throw out. Put
> > it in a book and I could toss it into the trash.
>
> Sure you would, it's those damned blinders getting in the way again
How can a blinder be damned, you do not even believer is such a place,
so your use church doctrine when you need to, but do not accept the
books it comes from. Your observations is not reliable.
Bob Young
On 1/8/10 7:10 AM, in article
a25194f7-3e50-4529...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
<rwk...@aim.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 12:01�am, Bob Young <alaspect...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>> On 1/7/10 7:17 AM, in article
>> 1c27a81f-2e7c-4a7c-9437-bf0a0c3a0...@l30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "RWKnapp"
>>
>>>>> I know. It is a tool used to get inside the heads of congregations telling
>>>> them what they want to hear.
>>
>>> So the tool works,
>>
>> Of course it works. �What is important is whether the concept is reliable
>> and whether the teaching is really being done to prevent those in the
>> congregation from committing their small sins as they may well do, or
>> whether it is there simply to let them hear what they have been programmed
>> to hear for years and what they want to hear in order to leave at the end of
>> the service and go home feeling is some strange way that they have been
>> saved. �'Saved' another piece of religious dogma used by preaches in roughly
>> the same manner.
>
> Saved is also dogma of the military, and anyone that was lost or had a
> problem where they could be hurt.
Totally different meaning
Great for preachers to teach about
> such things. Ignorants is not what we need in the lives of people
> that deal with others. One that is wise does want to know about these
> matters.
>
>> �like your words trying to get into our heads about
>
> I not sure if that was your words or mine, then if what is said does
> not get into your head, why say anything.
>
>>> atheist teachings, what is the difference?
>>
>> H U G E �Difference. � All we do is question the antics of various religions
>> around the world asking whether it is right and proper for young children to
>> be inculcated with religious beliefs when all along that is all they are
>> 'beliefs' that cannot be verified, simply supported by 'faith' �it is all
>> wrong.
>
> It is only a HUGE difference because you have to believe that to
> remain an atheist. It seems your dogma about your antics and
> questions doctrine is no different from what you claim the church
> does. Your teachings are also "beliefs" yours, nothing different and
> sure not H U G E ones.
We have no 'beliefs' we reject the 'belief' concept and the 'faith' concept
also
We work simply on facts, common sense and logic, as I have explained to you
time and time again
>
>>
>> �I sure any person that
>>
>>> deals with people and is their teacher wants to hear what we want to
>>> hear.
>>
>> Indeed they do as I pointed out already above.
>
> As I also pointed out above, again seems a Christian and an Atheist
> both try to win minds of the people. Nothing new here.
But there is a subtle difference. Atheists try to get people to think,
religionists do the opposite, by plying them with things they guess they
want to hear whilst reinforcing same to be used over and over again.
You know that deep down for sure.
An aside to that. A friend of mine here who works for a very religious
Chinese family tells me that their seven year old son has just been
circumcised. The boy is now in great pain and discomfort. Arrant primitive
superstitions still going on in the year 2010 - makes me very very angry.
The possibility of needless infection goes without saying. The boy also has
no idea why he has been treated in this way, other than his otherwise loving
parents asked him to submit to it. Humanity becomes crazy beyond all doubt
when religion gets involved.
The number of girls in Africa each year who die due to infection following
this primitive act is another disgusting statistic and another crime
performed in the name of ritual and tradition, both of which are usually
supported by some imaginary god or some branch of mumbo jumbo.
>
>>
>> � I know if I went to church and a atheist was the speaker, and
Wrong again, science REQUIRES proof before any concept is accepted.
Religion behaves in the opposite way.
It
> determines from its own studies that only prove they agree with
> themselves. You point to the Church using the Bible for proof and
> reject it, but here you agree with the same kind of story only it
> happens to fit what you want to accept.
Nonsense. The Bible cannot be proven
They can determine what they
> want they have nothing but themselves to say something is 400 million
> years ago, while last year I found a report that all that was a
> mistake by another group and really it is billions of years old, why
> not a trillion, nothing over a few thousand years maybe ten can be
> proven by facts found. It can be announced today and in the media all
> they like, does not make anything they state about such years, facts
> or truth.
Compared to what we knew about evolution in your Great grandfather's day, to
today the progress is staggering. Whilst all this has been going on
religions have been stagnant. Well no, that is not quite correct, they have
been busy moving their goal posts from time to time as each new scientific
concept becomes a scientific law complete with proof.
If you do not accept the strong indication that our ancestors crawled out of
the water around four million years ago, then please tell us where we humans
came from, when and how. Thanks
Watch the Religion TV media on cable or the Internet and
> learn the other side and hear why such evolutionist are ignorant by
> the science of today by teachers and professional people. One side
> over the other, just because you like evolutionist and we think they
> are silly or worse, does not prove who is right. The Christian talks
> about billions and unending afterlife for salvation everlasting life,
> just because you don't like it does not make it not happen, it is
> future it may happen or not, that is future. To deal and make
> statements about the PAST and what did happen, is not just having
> faith in what evolutionist believe or there dogma, prove it, not by
> themselves but by facts. Get us something that is a million years
> old on earth that is dated with some marking or lettering that says
> so. Try a billion if you like it is all the faith teachings of the
> atheist.
>>> All I can add is that a book called the bible, if seen by any real god, it
>>>> would not last two seconds in it's presence before it was thrown out.
>>
>>> And we are to take your world for that??
>>
>> I suggest you take my 'observation' and deal with it.
>
> Nope no facts, and your observation is learned from where, what
> college or facts that you can prove do you have, I not deal with your
> fantasy or your myths.
The fact is duly noted that you cannot in any shape or form prove that your
god endorses the holy bible in any way. Superstition loses A G A I N
>
>>
>> � Since when did you speak for
>>
>>> any real god, or know what such god would do or say, you do not even
>>> believe in any god, so this is all lies and such I do throw out. �Put
>>> it in a book and I could toss it into the trash.
>>
>> Sure you would, it's those damned blinders getting in the way again
>
> How can a blinder be damned, you do not even believer is such a place,
> so your use church doctrine when you need to, but do not accept the
> books it comes from. Your observations is not reliable.
If I drop a dinner plate and break it the likelihood is I will cry out "Oh
God". Nothing to do with any belief, it is to do with brainwashing and
habit, passed on from one human to another.
Something you religious types know a lot about.
If you didn't wear your blinders and peer at your old book of fables there
would be nothing left in your religion other than churches full of man made
regalia and artifacts, none of which are set out in The bible for man to
copy. No need - man is creative enough all by himself.
I note six Coptic Christians were shot in Egypt yesterday by a Muslim.
Today Christians are rioting in the streets
Isn't religion wonderful ?
Or perhaps I should say, 'How well religion meets the needs of homo sapiens
who inherited the desire to bunch together like the pack animals,
instinctively as they did a million years ago.' Religion fills the need
quite well don't you think ?
The more things change the more they remain the same
Some humans have been capitalising like parasites on this human trait since
the beginning of time - they call them, among many similar titles - priests.
"I was a preacher," said the man seriously.
"Reverend Jim Casy--was a Burning Busher. Used to
howl out the name of Jesus to glory. And used to
get an irrigation ditch so squirmin' full of
repented sinners half of 'em like to drownded. But
not no more," he sighed. "Just Jim Casy now. Ain't
got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful
idears--but they seem kinda sensible. . . ."
"Tell you what--I use ta get the people jumpin' an'
talkin' in tongues, an' glory-shoutin' till they
just fell down an' passed out. An' some I'd baptize
to bring 'em to.
An' then--you know what I'd do? I'd take one of
them girls out in the grass, an' I'd lay with her.
Done it ever' time. Then I'd feel bad, an' I'd pray
an' pray, but it didn't do no good. Come the nex'
time, them an' me was full of the sperit, I'd do it
again. I figgered there just wasn't no hope for me,
an' I was a damned ol' hypocrite. But I didn't mean
to be."
[John Steinbeck (1902-1968)
_The Grapes of Wrath_ [1939], Chapter 4]
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