The suffering of animals
Evelyn Ruut
All one needs to do is to watch any nature show and you will immediately see
that one species survives by eating another species. Animals live by
preying on other creatures and by being preyed upon. It definitely is a
life of fear. There is no autonomy really. They are driven by instincts
beyond their control, have very little true freedom, and always struggling
to find the next meal.
Some species only exist to feed others. Domestic chickens are probably
unfit to exist in a free state, because they have been purposely bred to
have more breast meat, for example.
So comparing a pet animal, who lives in a protected and caring home as an
example of animal suffering is really not fair to the countless wild animals
who live in an endless struggle to survive with habitat encroached upon by
man, with diminishing food supplies, and dealing with predators or with
predatory behaviors themselves, necessary to their very survival.
Wild animals suffer from parasites and diseases with no help coming from any
quarter. Sometimes a minor injury is enough to cause their death, in the
wild.
There is no question that being born into the animal realm is one of the
hells, as my teacher always said.
That doesn't count my dog, or victorias parrot, who are loved, spoiled, well
fed, protected, cared for, and who get good medical attention when they
needs it.
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Anraku
Hell. Hell is a different, and more frightening place, then Animal Realm.
The mark of Animal Realm is the lack of ability to distinguis right from
wrong.
The mark of Hell is anxiety.
As Shakyamuni said in the Surangama Sutra,
domestic animals will be born as human beings.
There is some connection betwen Animal Realm and Asura Realm.
Lions, tigers, wolfes,etc.are Asuras in animal forms.
According the teaching of the karma, to be born as a pet animal is fair,
born as a wild animal is also fair - caused by karma.
Anraku
_cl...@operamail.com
Anraku wrote:
> Whatever your teacher told you, animal realm is still Animal Realm, not
> Hell. Hell is a different, and more frightening place, then Animal Realm.
> The mark of Animal Realm is the lack of ability to distinguis right from
> wrong.
> The mark of Hell is anxiety.
> As Shakyamuni said in the Surangama Sutra,
> domestic animals will be born as human beings.
my brother used to keep a fly. he went for walks with it with a thin
thread tied to its legs while it zummed about him. do you think that
fly will be reborn as a human being?
> There is some connection betwen Animal Realm and Asura Realm.
> Lions, tigers, wolfes,etc.are Asuras in animal forms.
theres a lot of nice lions and wolfes etc. as well. what a bout them?
> According the teaching of the karma, to be born as a pet animal is fair,
> born as a wild animal is also fair - caused by karma.
personally i think it better for an animal to be in its own nature then
in captivity with humans.
>
> Anraku
Tad Perry
news:6pyte.12441$XB2.3...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
>
> There is no question that being born into the animal realm is one of the
> hells, as my teacher always said.
And I will repeat that no life or existence on this world is pure heaven or
pure hell. Animals have their good times. This arguing and bickering over
the points I make is insane.
tvp
_cl...@operamail.com
yes. just watch the rain in a pond. zillions of points waving about
>
> tvp
Evelyn Ruut
news:suCdnU5GfeS...@comcast.com...
That is true too, Tad. I didn't notice any bickering, actually. Was there?
Radio...@aol.com
the inability to distinguse between right and wrong is the legal
definition of insanity. aniexty is nothing compared to terror...
what are you basing these on?
love,
pema
Radio...@aol.com
Evelyn Ruut wrote:
> "Tad Perry" <tadp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:suCdnU5GfeS...@comcast.com...
> > "Evelyn Ruut" <mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:6pyte.12441$XB2.3...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no question that being born into the animal realm is one of the
> >> hells, as my teacher always said.
> >
> > And I will repeat that no life or existence on this world is pure heaven
> > or
> > pure hell. Animals have their good times. This arguing and bickering over
> > the points I make is insane.
> >
> > tvp
>
>
>
> That is true too, Tad. I didn't notice any bickering, actually. Was there?
>
Best Regards,
> Evelyn
only in his head when he termed this discussion insane.
good golly, tad needs to be tossed out a window, i'll take the
rightside, you heave from the left side.
love,
pema
Anraku
Based on the Surangama Sutra,a.k.a. "Demon Cutting
Sword", or "Monster Spotting Mirror" or again,
"Demon Pounding Pestle".
Anraku
Radio...@aol.com
anraku,
thanks for the response, i will look these up :)
love,
pema
Bourne Identity
Yes, but I did put the one caveat into my assessment by saying that my
parrot, Mika, must have created conditions to be a wild animal who
happened to be cared for by a Buddhist practitioner who will expose
her to images, holy statues, oral transmission, riding the wave of
prostrations, and the rest.
However, regardless, she will never achieve enlightenment in the realm
she lives in, which is, as Lama Zopa Rinpoche says, is the hell realm.
Of course she is spoiled and takes delicious showers in tepid water
when I shower and is rarely left unsupported in every way, but she is
still an animal in fear of losing her life. I know this whenever she
lets out a very different type of squawk. She doesn't do it often,
but when she sees something, I know it.
That's all I'm saying.
Victoria
Bourne Identity
wrote:
Dear One,
This is not bickering, it's called debate and it is probably 80% of
how we learn Dharma and make it stick. Since there are many schools
of Buddhism, and within those schools, different vehicles, there are
going to be debates on certain of the issues which come up.
This is also how we learn, as Buddhists to disagree without attachment
and anger. Very important, so join in and debate with the rest of us.
Keep it going, this is not bickering. A few will be in there with
snide remarks, whatever, just move forward.
Victoria
Bourne Identity
Pema, I am assuming you are Buddhist based on your name. I may be
wrong in this assumption. Why then, when using this name would you
encourage something which is violent? I am curious.
Victoria
_cl...@operamail.com
Radio...@aol.com wrote:
> Anraku wrote:
> > Pema:
> > Based on the Surangama Sutra,a.k.a. "Demon Cutting
> > Sword", or "Monster Spotting Mirror" or again,
> > "Demon Pounding Pestle".
i wonder if guys like edgar allan poe read stuff like that.
beautiful titles.
> >
> > Anraku
>
> anraku,
> thanks for the response, i will look these up :)
> love,
> pema
this is something i wonder about. why tibetan buddhists are so busy
locating demons while at the same time saying they dont really exist as
mere manifestations of ignorance, if i got that right. so training to
realize that they dont exist while creating them at the same time
doesnt make much sense to me. buddhism without these pantheons make
moore sense to me. sorry
Karma Tshering
> However, regardless, she will never achieve enlightenment in the realm
> she lives in, which is, as Lama Zopa Rinpoche says, is the hell realm.
Did he say that Animals are in a Hell Realm, or that the Animal Realms
can be like a Hell Realm?
Mostly for curiosity...
--
Karma Tshering
Karma Tshering
> On 20 Jun 2005 16:27:52 -0700, Radio...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> Pema, I am assuming you are Buddhist based on your name. I may be
> wrong in this assumption. Why then, when using this name would you
> encourage something which is violent? I am curious.
>
> Victoria
I believe she probably wasn't being all that serious ;)
--
Karma Tshering
Karma Tshering
>
>
> Radio...@aol.com wrote:
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> i wonder if guys like edgar allan poe read stuff like that.
> beautiful titles.
>
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> this is something i wonder about. why tibetan buddhists are so busy
> locating demons while at the same time saying they dont really exist as
> mere manifestations of ignorance, if i got that right. so training to
> realize that they dont exist while creating them at the same time
> doesnt make much sense to me. buddhism without these pantheons make
> moore sense to me. sorry
Metaphor.
--
Karma Tshering
Radio...@aol.com
dear one? looks tad isn't the only one who needs to get tossed out a
window.
tad been here for years and well knows everything you said as customary
for these boards, do you think tad is stupid or was there another
purpose to your post? hehee
love,
pema
ps.
Karma Tshering
> "Karma Tshering" <java...@FNORD.gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2005.06.22...@FNORD.gmail.com...
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> I am not all that up on exact attributions, but each of the realms has a
> category. The animal realm is one of the better hell realms according to
> tibetan buddhist lore.
God Realm
Demi-God Realm
Human Realm
,The three higher or positive realms of which the Human realm is the most
beneficial to practice the dharma.
Animal Realm
Hungry Ghost Realm
Hell Realm
,The three lower or negative realms of which the animal realm is very
close to the human realm but lacking the intelligence to practice the
dharma.
The lower you go, the more you experience suffering in that life time.
The higher you go, the less suffering you experience in that life time
(suffering does not cease, though).
At least that is how I've been taught.
--
Karma Tshering
Radio...@aol.com
i was refuged in the nyingma tradition, my lama is a 'Great" Terton
HE Namkha Drimed rinpoche Rabjam, Ripa lineage. (based in nepal now).
i can't give you an answer to satisfy your curiousity, you may have
more questions, i can say to look to old zen stories, even some
transmissions.
you saw this and created a whole sence which was 101% off base, the
answers to your questions really lie within you victoria.
love,
pema
Radio...@aol.com
karma!
thanks, i sure wasn't :) i love the little dickins known as tad. he
knows it. tad and i go back and forth quiet often, have for years, it's
more like he is my kid brother. but he is a good dad to two great boys,
and i respect much about tad, however completly wrong he is about
dharma...hehee
love
Bourne Identity
>Metaphor.
This is what I thought. Many of the teachings are not meant to be
taken literally. I see obstacles, aversions, delusions, attachment
and the rest to all be under the heading of demons, and such.
Victoria
Bourne Identity
>> Anraku wrote:
>> > Pema:
>> > Based on the Surangama Sutra,a.k.a. "Demon Cutting
>> > Sword", or "Monster Spotting Mirror" or again,
>> > "Demon Pounding Pestle".
Will you please post a URL or book leading to commentary from the
Tibetan Buddhist schools on this sutra? I found many, but none from
the Mahayana School.
Thanks,
Victoria
Evelyn Ruut
"Bourne Identity" <siri...@siriusradioisbest.com> wrote in message
news:s0fhb156otjua1rpd...@4ax.com...
Pema is a buddhist, yes, and she is joking. She has no real wishes any
harm to anyone, of that I assure you. She just thought Tad was getting a
little big headed or something, hence the joking. Nothing really meant
seriously at all.
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn
Evelyn Ruut
news:pan.2005.06.22...@FNORD.gmail.com...
I am not all that up on exact attributions, but each of the realms has a
category. The animal realm is one of the better hell realms according to
tibetan buddhist lore.
--
_cl...@operamail.com
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tibet/understand/bon.html
"The Tibetan folk religion encompasses indigenous beliefs and
practices, many of which predate the introduction of Buddhism and which
are commonly viewed as being distinct from the mainstream of Buddhist
practice. These are primarily concerned with propitiation of the
spirits and demons of Tibet, which are believed to inhabit all areas of
the country Folk religious practices rely heavily on magic and ritual
and are generally intended to bring mundane benefits, such as
protection from harm, good crops, healthy livestock, health, wealth,
etc. Their importance to ordinary people should not be underestimated,
since in the consciousness of most Tibetans the world is full of
multitudes of powers and spirits, and the welfare of humans requires
that they be propitiated and sometimes subdued. Every part of the
natural environment is believed to be alive with various types of
sentient forces, who live in mountains, trees, rivers and likes, rocks,
fields, the sky, and the earth. Every region has its own native
supernatural beings, and people living in these areas are strongly
aware of their presence. In order to stay in their good graces,
Tibetans give them offerings, perform rituals to propitiate them, and
sometimes refrain from going to particular places so as to avoid the
more dangerous forces."
"When Buddhism entered Tibet, it did not attempt to suppress belief in
the indigenous forces. Rather, it incorporated them into its worldview,
making them protectors of the dharma who were converted by tantric
adepts like Padmasambhava, and who now watch over Buddhism and fight
against its enemies. An example is Tangla, a god associated with the
Tangla mountains, who was convinced to become a Buddhist by
Padmasambhava and now is thought to guard his area against forces
inimical to the dharma. The most powerful deities are often considered
to be manifestations of buddhas, bodhisattvas, Oikinis, etc., but the
mundane forces are thought to be merely worldly powers, who have
demonic natures that have been suppressed by Buddhism. Although their
conversion has ameliorated the worst of their fierceness, they are
still demons who must be kept in check by shamanistic rituals and the
efforts of Buddhist adepts. Nor should it be thought that Buddhist
practitioners are free from the influences of the folk religion. These
beliefs and practices are prevalent in all levels of Tibetan society,
and it is common to see learned scholar-lamas, masters of
empirically-based dialectics and thoroughly practical in daily affairs,
refuse to travel at certain times in order to avoid dangerous spirits
or decide their travel schedules after first performingl divination to
determine the most auspicious time. Such attitudes may be dismissed as
"irrational" by Westerners, but for Tibetans they are entirely
pragmatic responses to a world populated by forces that are potentially
harmful."
>
> --
> Karma Tshering
_cl...@operamail.com
_cl...@operamail.com wrote:
> Karma Tshering wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:07:04 -0700, _cloud wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Radio...@aol.com wrote:
> > >> [quoted text muted]
> > >
> > > i wonder if guys like edgar allan poe read stuff like that.
> > > beautiful titles.
> > >
> > >> [quoted text muted]
> > >
> > > this is something i wonder about. why tibetan buddhists are so busy
> > > locating demons while at the same time saying they dont really exist as
> > > mere manifestations of ignorance, if i got that right. so training to
> > > realize that they dont exist while creating them at the same time
> > > doesnt make much sense to me. buddhism without these pantheons make
> > > moore sense to me. sorry
> >
> > Metaphor.
>
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tibet/understand/bon.html
this is enough i suppose. i dont see the 'methaporical' aspect, it
seems the beings within the tibetan pantheon are taken quite literally
as independent external forces not only being 'metaphorical' creations,
>
> "When Buddhism entered Tibet, it did not attempt to suppress belief in
> the indigenous forces. Rather, it incorporated them into its worldview,
> making them protectors of the dharma who were converted by tantric
> adepts like Padmasambhava, and who now watch over Buddhism and fight
> against its enemies.
> > Karma Tshering
Radio...@aol.com
_cl...@operamail.com wrote:
> _cl...@operamail.com wrote:
> > Karma Tshering wrote:
> > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:07:04 -0700, _cloud wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Radio...@aol.com wrote:
> > > >> [quoted text muted]
> > > >
> > > > i wonder if guys like edgar allan poe read stuff like that.
> > > > beautiful titles.
> > > >
> > > >> [quoted text muted]
> > > >
> > > > this is something i wonder about. why tibetan buddhists are so busy
> > > > locating demons while at the same time saying they dont really exist as
> > > > mere manifestations of ignorance, if i got that right. so training to
> > > > realize that they dont exist while creating them at the same time
> > > > doesnt make much sense to me. buddhism without these pantheons make
> > > > moore sense to me. sorry
> > >
> > > Metaphor.
> >
> >
> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tibet/understand/bon.html
>
> this is enough i suppose. i dont see the 'methaporical' aspect, it
> seems the beings within the tibetan pantheon are taken quite literally
> as independent external forces not only being 'metaphorical' creations,
hi cloud,
all the deities in the pantheon are mirrors of the aspects of each one
of us. there is no real green tara as a woman, godess or seperate being
in any sense, there is no vajryapani floating around anywhere but
within us. a tiger means anger, elephant means fear, certain knives
represent being to leave certain unwanted aspects of ourselves behind,
we have cut them away. standing opn a person is overcoming the
ego...etc. as the cross is a symblo, so is a purba... alot of the
reason there is so much visuale is due to a illiertate population.
it's the a picture is a worth a thousand words.
it's 99.9.9% methaphore
love,
pema
Radio...@aol.com
that's what i have been taught as well. i find it comforting to know
that my dear little creatures are not too far from us, tho sometimes i
wonder if one of my cats isn't more advanced than i...
love,
pema
_cl...@operamail.com
Radio...@aol.com wrote:
> _cl...@operamail.com wrote:
> > _cl...@operamail.com wrote:
> > > Karma Tshering wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:07:04 -0700, _cloud wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Radio...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > >> [quoted text muted]
> > > > >
> > > > > i wonder if guys like edgar allan poe read stuff like that.
> > > > > beautiful titles.
> > > > >
> > > > >> [quoted text muted]
> > > > >
> > > > > this is something i wonder about. why tibetan buddhists are so busy
> > > > > locating demons while at the same time saying they dont really exist as
> > > > > mere manifestations of ignorance, if i got that right. so training to
> > > > > realize that they dont exist while creating them at the same time
> > > > > doesnt make much sense to me. buddhism without these pantheons make
> > > > > moore sense to me. sorry
> > > >
> > > > Metaphor.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tibet/understand/bon.html
> >
> > this is enough i suppose. i dont see the 'methaporical' aspect, it
> > seems the beings within the tibetan pantheon are taken quite literally
> > as independent external forces not only being 'metaphorical' creations,
>
> hi cloud,
> all the deities in the pantheon are mirrors of the aspects of each one
> of us.
not according to the information given through the link above. these
mirrored 'aspects' as you call it are taken quite literally as real
independant forces by the great majority of tibetan buddhists
apparantly ...
there is no real green tara as a woman, godess or seperate being
> in any sense,
so why feed the image?
there is no vajryapani floating around anywhere but
> within us. a tiger means anger,
that is most unfair to the tigers. why dont just call it anger?
elephant means fear,
that is most unfair to the elephants. ganesha would have a fit if he
heard this...why not just call it fear?
certain knives
> represent being to leave certain unwanted aspects of ourselves behind,
> we have cut them away. standing opn a person is overcoming the
> ego...etc. as the cross is a symblo, so is a purba... alot of the
> reason there is so much visuale is due to a illiertate population.
and this population take this pantheon quite literally and dont see it
as mere 'metaphors' at all.
> it's the a picture is a worth a thousand words.
you mean there are no words for states of mind as 'fear' 'anger' and
such in the tibetan language?
Karma Tshering
>
>
> Karma Tshering wrote:
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> that's what i have been taught as well. i find it comforting to know
> that my dear little creatures are not too far from us, tho sometimes i
> wonder if one of my cats isn't more advanced than i...
> love,
> pema
<smiles/> So I have heard, Bodhisattvas through great compassion will
sometimes manifest in the form of animals and other forms for the benefit
of all beings.
--
Karma Tshering
Karma Tshering
Can't say that I read all that is detailed in that link above. But I can
say that there is a reason that you traditionally required empowerment to
look upon the image of specific yidam. The Buddhist traditions hold yidam
deities to be wisdom bodies and empty. Meaning that they are really there,
but not solid form in flesh and blood.
Like a rainbow. If you take these beings as being truly real, then you
need to contemplate their emptiness some more.
>
> there is no real green tara as a woman, godess or seperate being
>> in any sense,
>
> so why feed the image?
Don't feed the image. Deconstruct the image.
My teacher heard his translator say to "visualize" the image of dorje
sempa, and he immediately stopped the translation to emphasize in English
that he wanted the word "imagine" to be used where the translator would
normally use the other word.
> there is no vajryapani floating around anywhere but
>> within us. a tiger means anger,
>
> that is most unfair to the tigers. why dont just call it anger?
>
> elephant means fear,
>
> that is most unfair to the elephants. ganesha would have a fit if he
> heard this...why not just call it fear?
>
Many students were illiterate. You'll notice that there are a great
amount of Thangkas, religious paintings, in Tibetan Buddhism. These are
paintings of visualizations that students would meditate on.
As I said earlier, students traditionally required empowerment to even
view one of these Thangkas and meditate upon it. There is no empowerment
without explanation.
So Rinpoche would explain... Chenrezig is white in form, has four arms and
one face. He holds two hands in supplication... explains the three jewels
here. In another hand he holds the stem of a lotus... explains rising
from the muck here. In the other hand he holds a crystal mala... explains
activity and clarity here.
Using four-armed Avolekitesvara as example here. But Chenrezig is
inseperable from the meditator, the seed syllable, the mantra, etc. He is
awareness-emptiness.
> certain knives
>> represent being to leave certain unwanted aspects of ourselves behind,
>> we have cut them away. standing opn a person is overcoming the
>> ego...etc. as the cross is a symblo, so is a purba... alot of the
>> reason there is so much visuale is due to a illiertate population.
>
> and this population take this pantheon quite literally and dont see it
> as mere 'metaphors' at all.
It is commonly viewed that there is a "real" Chenrezig out there, just as
there is a "real" you out there. But, of course, there also is not a you
that is "truly real". The idea of yidam practice is to meditate upon
these yidam and realize them. They must be practiced... unless you do
that, you may think they are just like the gods of the God Realm... that
is a mistaken view.
>
>
>> it's the a picture is a worth a thousand words.
>
> you mean there are no words for states of mind as 'fear' 'anger' and
> such in the tibetan language?
Yes. There definitely is. There is also a word for face in English, yet
pictures are very popular. One thing to say "face" another thing to
visualize one, or even just look at a photo.
>
>
>> it's 99.9.9% methaphore
>> love,
>> pema
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "When Buddhism entered Tibet, it did not attempt to suppress belief
>> > > in the indigenous forces. Rather, it incorporated them into its
>> > > worldview, making them protectors of the dharma who were converted
>> > > by tantric adepts like Padmasambhava, and who now watch over
>> > > Buddhism and fight against its enemies.
>> > > > Karma Tshering
--
Karma Tshering
Radio...@aol.com
smiles back :) yes, yes, yes...
love,
pema
red_h...@operamail.com
neither did i
But I can
> say that there is a reason that you traditionally required empowerment to
> look upon the image of specific yidam.
that is a given. its normal projective procedure regardless of context.
if no such projective imagining were present, everything would be an
'empowerment',
you would be within the 'dropping' off, or stream or whatever you want
to call it, which actually as far as i understand it is the buddhist
'way'. so this kind of practise as you descrive here is just dribbling
over holiday pictures as i see it. looks silly. first you entangle
yourself in heavy projecting, then finally when you are un-tangled
again, one calls oneself enlightened. hello...
The Buddhist traditions hold yidam
> deities to be wisdom bodies and empty.
does that mean that wisdom is empty?
Meaning that they are really there,
?
> but not solid form in flesh and blood.
> Like a rainbow.
naturally. they are collective projections fed with
the awareness of those who adhere to its specifics.
feed the machine
If you take these beings as being truly real, then you
> need to contemplate their emptiness some more.
it is not i who take them as real,
but those feeding them
>
>
> >
> > there is no real green tara as a woman, godess or seperate being
> >> in any sense,
> >
> > so why feed the image?
>
> Don't feed the image. Deconstruct the image.
so why project it into being in the first place?
> My teacher heard his translator say to "visualize" the image of dorje
> sempa, and he immediately stopped the translation to emphasize in English
> that he wanted the word "imagine" to be used where the translator would
> normally use the other word.
if you hook up to a forcefield that has been cultivated for some time
by 'imagining' yourself into your deity as given by this culture, you
will share in this collective field called tibetan buddhism and build a
identity on paradox that feeding the imagining will lead to it feeding
you. usually its just called a projective loop,
>
> > there is no vajryapani floating around anywhere but
> >> within us. a tiger means anger,
> >
> > that is most unfair to the tigers. why dont just call it anger?
> >
> > elephant means fear,
> >
> > that is most unfair to the elephants. ganesha would have a fit if he
> > heard this...why not just call it fear?
> >
>
> Many students were illiterate.
hope none of them were blind. dont think braille existed at the time.
in case they would have to rely on the sounds. roaring, the whipping of
a tail against the ground, claws scratching etc. guess the word wall
would be enough to make a blind student understand that the feeling
fear was referred to when saying tiger. i asked a person who was born
blind once what he dreamt. very blurred conversation
You'll notice that there are a great
> amount of Thangkas, religious paintings, in Tibetan Buddhism.
yes. i had two manuscripts with old yantras from India once.
north-indian, in mineral colours. extraordinary beatiful.
These are
> paintings of visualizations that students would meditate on.
i am aware of all this.
> As I said earlier, students traditionally required empowerment to even
> view one of these Thangkas and meditate upon it.
not to speak of making them. however, is this empowerment 'real' or
'illusory' in nature?
There is no empowerment
> without explanation.
of yes there is. just it cant be explained as a separate
> So Rinpoche would explain... Chenrezig is white in form,
then there is another colour or tone of white that separates Chenrezing
from not Chenrezig,
which means he is not-white in form as form, as form happenss between
white and black but cannot bee seen if only white or only black
has four arms and
> one face.
i have seen enough buddhas to get an immediate image. it is very
attractive,
dancing. which is fine. now bend down and smell a flower like Chenrezig
would, and you would see no image and he would be utterly gone from
your awareness, being perhaps only the flower you were smelling.
He holds two hands in supplication... explains the three jewels
> here. In another hand he holds the stem of a lotus... explains rising
> from the muck here. In the other hand he holds a crystal mala... explains
> activity and clarity here.
yes, but smell the flower now...forget...
> Using four-armed Avolekitesvara as example here. But Chenrezig is
> inseperable from the meditator, the seed syllable, the mantra, etc. He is
> awareness-emptiness.
he is a creation of your mind, is what he is. which is not to say you
cannot smell the flower...
>
> > certain knives
> >> represent being to leave certain unwanted aspects of ourselves behind,
> >> we have cut them away. standing opn a person is overcoming the
> >> ego...etc. as the cross is a symblo, so is a purba... alot of the
> >> reason there is so much visuale is due to a illiertate population.
> >
> > and this population take this pantheon quite literally and dont see it
> > as mere 'metaphors' at all.
>
> It is commonly viewed that there is a "real" Chenrezig out there, just as
> there is a "real" you out there.
that would be nice. then he would be most welcome to have breakfast
with me one day :)
But, of course, there also is not a you
> that is "truly real".
flowing the flows
The idea of yidam practice is to meditate upon
> these yidam and realize them. They must be practiced... unless you do
> that, you may think they are just like the gods of the God Realm... that
> is a mistaken view.
practising is feeding them. its the cultivation of a symbiotic project.
you feed them they feed you, its real enough to the perceiver, but its
the realness of a projection.
>
> >
> >
> >> it's the a picture is a worth a thousand words.
> >
> > you mean there are no words for states of mind as 'fear' 'anger' and
> > such in the tibetan language?
>
> Yes. There definitely is. There is also a word for face in English, yet
> pictures are very popular.
im not sure if face can be a state of mind, but ok. to some extent it
can express it i suppose, if your not blind.
One thing to say "face" another thing to
> visualize one, or even just look at a photo.
fear is a general that can take on many faces.
red_h...@operamail.com
red_h...@operamail.com wrote:
> Karma Tshering wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >> it's the a picture is a worth a thousand words.
> > >
> > > you mean there are no words for states of mind as 'fear' 'anger' and
> > > such in the tibetan language?
> >
> > Yes. There definitely is. There is also a word for face in English, yet
> > pictures are very popular.
>
> im not sure if face can be a state of mind, but ok. to some extent it
> can express it i suppose, if your not blind.
>
>
>
> One thing to say "face" another thing to
> > visualize one, or even just look at a photo.
>
>
> fear is a general that can take on many faces.
apparantly
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >> it's 99.9.9% methaphore > > >> love,
definitely
> > >> pema
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
Anraku
the Surangama Sutra is a Mahayana Sutra,
it has nothing to do with Vajrayana.
I suppose, they like it as devil likes
the holy water.
The Surangama Sutra, in VIII volume,
commentary by Tripitaka Master Hsüan Hua,
Dharma Realm Buddhist University
Buddhist Text Translation Society,
Talmage,CA.
Anraku
Messer Xin
(in message
<918d1fc98e6b0cba...@localhost.talkaboutreligion.com>):
> the Surangama Sutra is a Mahayana Sutra,
> it has nothing to do with Vajrayana.
> I suppose, they like it as devil likes
> the holy water.
Why do you suppose that? I've been reading it and see nothing Vajrayanis
would object to.
---Messer Xin
--
Life is eternal while it lasts. .. Ape;)
Karma Tshering
> Victoria,
>
> the Surangama Sutra is a Mahayana Sutra,
> it has nothing to do with Vajrayana.
> I suppose, they like it as devil likes
> the holy water.
I have been taught, in the Vajrayana tradition, that one must practice
Shravakayana, Mahayana, and Mantrayana all on the same cushion. So, in
this tradition, we recognize the Shravaka teachings of discipline, the
Bodhisattva teachings of wisdom, and the Vajra teachings of skillful means.
In short... there are few reasons for a practicioner of the Mantrayana to
not study Sutrayana teachings of the Mahayana tradition. Though it would
be good to receive the blessings of a teacher who has read and
contemplated the sutra.
>
> The Surangama Sutra, in VIII volume,
> commentary by Tripitaka Master Hsüan Hua,
> Dharma Realm Buddhist University
> Buddhist Text Translation Society,
> Talmage,CA.
>
> Anraku
--
Karma Tshering