The Dalai Lama's Other Face.
James Burns
DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
===========================================================
The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
and His administration. It makes a mockery of His fine words and
sentiments expressed in the West regarding such things as openness
freedom, dialogue and human rights. He is following a policy of
repression of human rights and freedoms based in religious prejudice the
likes of which have not been seen in the West since the mid nineteen
thirties. Support in the West for the Dalai Lama, must not continue if
he does not stop such degrading tactics against a section of his own
people.
As you will see from the letter the Dalai Lama is effectively now trying
to contain the Dorje Shugden issue within the confines of the exiled
community by denying Dorje Shugden Devotees freedom of movement. It is
now more important than ever that investigative journalists from the
West find out the truth of what is going on and let the rest of the
world know about the two sides of the Dalai Lama. Dorje Shugden Devotees
in India have now been effectively banned from foreign travel. It is
therefore essential that Dorje Shugden practitioners and sympathisers in
the West keep up their campaign to restablish the basic human rights and
freedom's for these people in India.
Any assistance from independent people with a concern for humanitarian
issues would be most welcome. The Dalai Lama gains his strength from the
uncritical support that he receives from people in the West. This
combined with Western Public funding has given him a sense of relative
invulnerability to criticism. It is important that this issue is
brought to the attention of as many media and political figures in the
West as possible.
The Dalai Lama has paid professional Public Relations and Media people
who have been working for him to try and marginalise and minimalise this
issue. They have been putting out a stream of propaganda in an attempt
to cover up the extent and seriousness of what has been happening.
However the issue speaks for itself and any objective investigation
shows it's true nature.
The Dorje Shugden Coalition has only limited funds and any third part
support on this issue would be greatly appreciated.
LETTER:
===============================================
From:
Department of Religion and Culture
Central Tibetan Administration of HH the Dalai Lama
===============================================
To:
Settlement and Welfare Officers,
Concerning monks and nuns who wish to travel to foreign countries after
obtaining recommendation letter from the local settlement and welfare
officer on the strength of authorisation letter from their monasteries,
after these are received at this office, (this office) has to obtain
authorisation from the Cabinet Secretariat after verifying whether or
not the candidate meets the following requirements. It is therefore
recommended that the concerned local officers verify these requirements
at the outset before issuing their recommendation letters:
1 Certificate from the local Freedom Movement Office verifying the
serial number of the candidate's tax book for Tibetan freedom and the
faithful payment of the Tibetan freedom tax dues.
2 Photocopy of the candidate's Foreigner's Registration
Certificate for Tibetans living in India and its serial number.
3 Attestation from their monastery and the abbot, that neither the
host, whether private or organisation, as well as the invitee is a
devotee of Dhogyal [Dorje Shugden], that neither the host nor the
invitee has any connection with Dhogyal.
4 Endorsement and stamp of the nearest Indian mission in the
host's country on the invitation letter.
5 Attestation letter, if the host is a Tibetan, that the host has
faithfully paid the Tibetan freedom tax dues.
A recommendation letter bearing clear mention of each of the above
requirements would help us to speedily obtain clearance from the Cabinet
Secretariat. Hence we recommend that the local officers implement this
directive accordingly.
May 19, 1998
(Signed)
Terizin Topgyal
Assistant General Secretary
(Under the Seal of the Dept of Religion and Culture)
===============================================================
The above letter directly contravenes:
Article 13 (2) of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 10th
December 1948
'Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to
return to his country.
Article 12 (2) of the UN International Covenant on Civil and Political
Rights, 16th December 1966
'Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
Article 21 of the Indian Constitution
Protection of life and personal liberty . No person shall be deprived of
his life or personal liberty except according to procedure established
by law. [According to
Indian law the "right to travel abroad is included within the expression
'personal liberty"'. (V.N. Shukla's Constitution ofindia)]
It also directly contravenes Article 18 of the (proposed) Constitution
of Tibet
'Subject to the law imposing reasonable restrictions in the interests of
the security of the State, public order, health or morality, all
citizens shall be entitled to..(e) the right to a passport to
travel outside those (Tibetan) territories. '
The letter indirectly contravenes:
Article 2 of the UN Declaration of the Elimination of all Forms of
Intolerance ..., 25th November 1981
'No one shall be subject to discrimination by any State, institution
groups or persons on the grounds of religion or other beliefs.'
Article 3 of the (proposed) Constitution of Tibet
'It shall be the duty of the Government of Tibet to adhere strictly' to
the Universal Declaration of Human Right and to promote the moral and
material welfare of the people of Tibet.'
Article 17 (1) of the (proposed) Constitution of Tibet
'All religious denominations are equal before the law.'
Mick_G
Mick
James Burns wrote in message ...
James Burns
<mic...@email.msn.com> writes
>I don't buy it and think this is much a due about nothing.
>
>Mick
Scepticism is good.
Objectivity is better.
Look into it for yourself and find the truth.
=======================================
May You Be Filled With Loving Kindness,
May You Be Well,
May You Be Peaceful And At Ease,
And May You Have Happiness
=======================================
James Burns
>
>James Burns wrote in message ...
>>
The Puddies
James Burns wrote in message ...
>In article <6qt5ov$l7p$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Mick_G
><mic...@email.msn.com> writes
>>I don't buy it and think this is much a due about nothing.
>>
>>Mick
>
>Scepticism is good.
>Objectivity is better.
>Look into it for yourself and find the truth.
>
>=======================================
>May You Be Filled With Loving Kindness,
>May You Be Well,
>May You Be Peaceful And At Ease,
>And May You Have Happiness
>=======================================
>
>James Burns
>
>>
>>James Burns wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>===========================================================
>>>
>>>The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
>>
Recently an article was posted showing that His Holiness's government in
exile has been given a completely clean bill of health after an
investigation by amnesty international, an organization which is quite
thorough in their investigation of such claims of abuse.
Just another example of the spamming from the NKT trying to suck people into
believing their nonsense.
Regards,
Evelyn
James Burns
<pud...@frontiernet.net> writes
>Recently an article was posted showing that His Holiness's government in
>exile has been given a completely clean bill of health after an
>investigation by amnesty international, an organization which is quite
>thorough in their investigation of such claims of abuse.
>
>Just another example of the spamming from the NKT trying to suck people into
>believing their nonsense.
Giving yourself a particularised and self-certified clean bill of health
is different than someone else doing it. I am led to believe that there
is a lengthy Amnesty International report that does condemn the actions
of His Holiness. However it has not been published so far. There is
concern about their reluctance to publish. It is not a necessity for
third parties to say that there has been a violation of Human Rights and
Freedoms.. the *facts* are there for anyone to see.
The new letter that has just been posted can be easily checked with the
source. It is unlikely that they would dare deny it. However, if they
do, a copy of the original in Tibetan complete with letter head,
signature and seal can be provided.
Buddhism is about awakening not about deluding yourself.
Most, if not all, the spamming and hurtful speech seems to come from one
direction.. from those that support His Holiness. It says much for Dorje
Shugden practitioners that, in spite of being the victimised party, they
maintain their dignity, patience and nobility.
They at least seem to be following in the spirit of the Buddha.
Mick_G
I find it interesting that the only correct information is the information
put out by the NKT. Amnesty international is in cahoots with the Government
in Excile, the US media is silenced by their awe of HHDL, everyone who has a
different observation is just not seeing the facts. This is all such hog
wash. The amount of so called repression is miniscule and has no real
bearing on The Tibetan Government in Excile. This subject is just blown
completely out of proportion to the facts. Also your constant use of the
talk.politics.tibet newsgroup for your propaganda makes you willingly or
unwillingly a pawn of the anti Tibet forces of the PRC.
Mick
James Burns wrote in message ...
pa...@ix.netcom.com
In my opinion, all these posts on Dorje Shugden which are slinging accusations
at HH the Dalai Lama are just another way that the Dorje Shugden egregore is
functioning to attack His Holiness.
The Dorje Shugden causing His Holiness to keel over with a stomach ache or to
hurl his lunch across the room is not the way that Dorje Shugden is attacking
the Dalai Lama, this is just the simple minded image of overly literal
Believers. Dorje Shugden is attacking the Dalai Lama through the activity
of the followers of Dorje Shugden in repeatedly hurling charges of religious
persecution or abuse of human rights against His Holiness.
What a travesty against that innocent and holy man, the winner of the Nobel
Peace Prize.
His Holiness lives in India today, and India the land of the Buddha's birth
is a free country with religious liberty, in which anyone can worship or not
in any way he chooses.
In Tibet, it is very different. Tibet was invaded by a foreign country ruled
by an oppressive government, and which persecutes Buddhism and all religions.
Now is the time to support His Holiness the Dalai Lama in his efforts to
restore freedom and independance to Buddhist Tibet; it is not a time to raise
sectarian strife with repeated Dorje Shugden attacks on His Holiness.
Let me ask Mr. Burns this question. Does he acknowledge my freedom of
religion to throw darts at the image of Dorje Shugden, in which a) Dorje
Shugden is for me a symbol of religious sectarianism and ignorance, and b)
the Dart is the symbol of the Divine Dorje liberating all sentient beings
from the ignorance of the energy field of the Dorje Shugden egregore. The
goal of throwing darts at the image of Dorje Shugden is to benefit all
sentient beings by invoking ultimate wisdom and the causes of happiness in
all.
Or would Mr. Burns allow me to visualize Mahakala dancing on the corpse of
Dorje Shugden, symbolizing the profound methods of Dharma which protect the
mind from ignorance (Shugden).
Now if Shugden represents Buddha for Mr. Burns, let him by all means meditate
on Shugden. What is a symbol of Buddha for Mr. Burns might be conceived by
me as a symbol of ignorance and the causes of suffering. To each his own
Dharma practice.
But instead of these, I would now propose instead to visualize a free and
liberated Tibet in which HH the Dalai Lama is re-enthroned in Lhasa, and in
which Buddhist Practice of whatever lineage may be cultivated to benefit all
sentient beings.
Think Peace. Think World Harmony. Visualize Tibet free again.
SAR
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Mick_G
That is your standard response if I or someone else doesn't agree with you
well look into it further and I will become enlightened? Sheez how odd, that
you seem to be the only one with the real truth?
Mick
James Burns wrote in message ...
>In article <6qt5ov$l7p$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Mick_G
><mic...@email.msn.com> writes
>>I don't buy it and think this is much a due about nothing.
>>
>>Mick
>
>Scepticism is good.
>Objectivity is better.
>Look into it for yourself and find the truth.
>
>=======================================
>May You Be Filled With Loving Kindness,
>May You Be Well,
>May You Be Peaceful And At Ease,
>And May You Have Happiness
>=======================================
>
>James Burns
>
>>
>>James Burns wrote in message ...
>>>
JCor...@hotmail.com
Please post where I can send my donation to your cause. I share your
vision of the future and truth.
Mick_G wrote:
>
> James:
> That is your standard response if I or someone else doesn't agree with you
> well look into it further and I will become enlightened? Sheez how odd, that
> you seem to be the only one with the real truth?
>
> Mick
>
> James Burns wrote in message ...
> >In article <6qt5ov$l7p$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Mick_G
> ><mic...@email.msn.com> writes
> >>I don't buy it and think this is much a due about nothing.
> >>
> >>Mick
> >
> >Scepticism is good.
> >Objectivity is better.
> >Look into it for yourself and find the truth.
> >
> >=======================================
> >May You Be Filled With Loving Kindness,
> >May You Be Well,
> >May You Be Peaceful And At Ease,
> >And May You Have Happiness
> >=======================================
> >
> >James Burns
> >
> >>
> >>James Burns wrote in message ...
> >>>
Joe Zilincar
Read the article below and please stop your lies about the Dalai Lama.
Also, note the article comes with a citation that can be verified by anyone
wishing to do so.
Joe
Amnesty exonerates 'Tibetan Government' (TNS)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tribune News Service, INDIA
DHARAMSALA, July 25 - The Amnesty International has said it has found no
evidence of human rights violation of Shugden followers, and maintained
that it did not wish to become involved in a debate on the spiritual
issue of the Tibetans.
The worshippers of the Tibetan Buddhist deity, Shugden Dorjee, had
submitted a lot of material to the Amnesty International, alleging human
rights abuse against them, in various Tibetan settlements, in India. The
Shugden devotees had approached the AI for action against the Tibetan
government-in-exile for grave violation of fundamental human rights,
including torture, death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary
detention and unfair trials. Regarding the human rights position in Tibet
and China, the AI said there was a widespread crackdown on Tibetan
nationalists and religious groups. About 100 Tibetans, mostly monks and
nuns, were reported to have been detained last year. It said a continuing
"patriotic re-education campaign", in monasteries which had led to
expulsions and arrests. The prison conditions remained harsh in Tibet and
prisoners were often ill- treated for a minor infringement of prison
regulations.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
end WTN NEWS 98/07/31
Tingli Pan
Mick_G <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>James:
>
>I find it interesting that the only correct information is the information
>put out by the NKT. Amnesty international is in cahoots with the Government
>in Excile, the US media is silenced by their awe of HHDL, everyone who has a
>different observation is just not seeing the facts. This is all such hog
>wash. The amount of so called repression is miniscule and has no real
>bearing on The Tibetan Government in Excile. This subject is just blown
>completely out of proportion to the facts. Also your constant use of the
>talk.politics.tibet newsgroup for your propaganda makes you willingly or
>unwillingly a pawn of the anti Tibet forces of the PRC.
>
>Mick
>
different opinion. Again, it proves those TI people are noth other than
a group of people trying hard to keep their own dark side by all means
while yelling loud for their own fabricated pain.
Btw, there is report on Newsweek about the repressing of Shugden by the
so call Tibetan government.... unless you consider that Newsweek is the
propaganda machine of PRC too.
Tingli Pan
Mick_G
by trying to imply my hypocrisy just won't work, you have already branded
yourself nothing more than a dupe for the PRC who will print anything to try
and support the PRC and condemn HHDL. I will not talk to you in the future,
because it is a futile act.
Mick
Tingli Pan wrote in message <6r2o2d$t2k$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
Alan Bird
wrote:
>So tiresome Tingli, we've had conversations before. Trying to raise my ire
>by trying to imply my hypocrisy just won't work, you have already branded
>yourself nothing more than a dupe for the PRC who will print anything to try
>and support the PRC and condemn HHDL. I will not talk to you in the future,
>because it is a futile act.
>
>Mick
Not wishing to get involved with the wider political campaign of
tingli, since all I wish is for the ban on Dorje Shugdan to be lifted.
but Mick, can you please answer the point about the Newsweek article,
is this just lies and hogwash too?
Take care
alan
"Yet, while many Tibetans would never
publicly challenge the Dalai Lama,
the worship of Dorje Shugdan remains
widespread, and there is nothing to
suggest that the controversy will
quickly subside"
Donald Lopez.
Alan Bird
>James Burns:
>
>Please post where I can send my donation to your cause. I share your
>vision of the future and truth.
>
this is surely tongue in cheek.
But anyway, just to answer these silly comments.
No money is requried, merely write a letter to groups like Amnesty
International raising your concerns. Specifically you can mention this
latest abuse of human rights, in which the exiled Tiibetan government
is denying freedom of travel to Dorje Shugdan practitioners.
Take care
Alan
Mick_G
You know I had you on a filter up until a recent crash / upgrade to my
computer. I'd really prefer not to get to thinking that having a discussion
with you was futile as I know it is with Tingli. Maybe you have innocently
got two threads mixed up, I can't say. But I don't have the vaguest idea
what you are talking about when in a accusatory tone "can you please answer
the point about the Newsweek article,
is this just lies and hogwash too?" Maybe some article was brought up in
some other thread, but this started with a message from James Burns, again
done in an authoritative manner with a title of: "Dalai Lama's Increasing
Abuse of Human Rights and Freedoms". There was no mention of it being
published in News Week. The first three paragraphs seem if you look with a
jaundice eye to be written by James. After this is several paragraphs
written under a heading that says, "Letter from: Department of Religion and
Culture Central Tibetan Administration of HH the Dalai Lama; To: Settlement
and Welfare Officers." This states a lot of things. But again, how can I
just accept it as the truth? Should I accept it because it came from a DS
supporter? Under what criteria should this change my opinion of the whole
mess? See it is up to you to prove that all these accusations are true, that
there is a planed concerted effort on the part of HHDL to actually cause DS
practitioners harm. I don't have to prove that it doesn't exist. And I'll
tell you again Alan, I find it interesting that this vital subject has not
made it's way to any of the Major Television Networks, News News Shows in
the USA, Magazines, or Newspapers, they just love a scandal where a major
public figure can be shown to be less than his public image? Can you explain
that? Why is it that the only information, always seems to come from some DS
organization and one Swiss television show in I suppose German? This is why
I still have so much skepticism when I see another article posted from a DS
supporter.
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d61fd4...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>wrote:
JCor...@hotmail.com
>
> On 14 Aug 1998 15:00:53 PDT, JCor...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >James Burns:
> >
> >Please post where I can send my donation to your cause. I share your
> >vision of the future and truth.
> >
> this is surely tongue in cheek.
Alan,
Don't understand why you say so. I was under the impression financial
support was needed, since James mentioned how the Dorje Shugden cause
has very limited funds. My offer is sincere.
>> But anyway, just to answer these silly comments.
A bit miffed you say my comments are silly. Is this some
misunderstanding?
>
> No money is requried, merely write a letter to groups like Amnesty
> International raising your concerns. Specifically you can mention this
> latest abuse of human rights, in which the exiled Tiibetan government
> is denying freedom of travel to Dorje Shugdan practitioners.
>
I can try that, if that's what you prefer.
Best wishes.
JC
Kent Sandvik
> You are free to visualise as you wish, but why you shouyld wish to
> take a heart practice of a great lama of HH Trijanf Rinpoche, song
> Rinpcohe, Je Phabongkharoa, Lama Yeshe to name just a few I find very
> difficult to undersdtand. such visualising would definately be
> sectarian as it is a direct insuklt to these great lama's. why not
> simply get on with your practice and not concern yourself with other
> people's practice.
I'm a lousy speller, but don't I feel that you are very agitated, and
you are whiping out words left and right, even not checking the spelling
of such glorious lamas such as Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche? At least
Lama Yeshe was correct :-). Anyway, putting the spelling aside, what I
personally read between the lines is that you have a lot of suffering
currently, and that's really sad.
All I could offer is that in order for you to get peace in your mind,
you have to start from yourself, accept that there are differences and
just continue? The constant finger pointing will just cause you more and
more suffering, there's little we could do from the outside than just
influence you to get to a point where you should no longer worry and
make a lot of karmic negativities that will cause you even more
suffering later.
Mangalam, Kent
PS: Read Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe, just out, and excellent
Buddha-dharma.
Alan Bird
>
>
>In my opinion, all these posts on Dorje Shugden which are slinging accusations
>at HH the Dalai Lama are just another way that the Dorje Shugden egregore is
>functioning to attack His Holiness.
>
This is nonsence.
For twenty years HHDL has spoken against the practice. who were
'slinging accusations', as you claimed.
However, in March 96 HHDL banned this practice. People are being
called haters of HHDL, enemies of tibet, traitors etc., merely for
following teachings they received from HH Trijang Rinpoche. they have
had their freedom of religious worship removed and more recently they
no longer have the freedom to travel as this is being denied them by
HHDL government.
We are merely asking for this ban to be lifted. that does not make us
anti-HHDL, however it does make us anti the ban on Dorje Shugdan
practitioners.
>
>Or would Mr. Burns allow me to visualize Mahakala dancing on the corpse of
>Dorje Shugden, symbolizing the profound methods of Dharma which protect the
>mind from ignorance (Shugden).
You are free to visualise as you wish, but why you shouyld wish to
take a heart practice of a great lama of HH Trijanf Rinpoche, song
Rinpcohe, Je Phabongkharoa, Lama Yeshe to name just a few I find very
difficult to undersdtand. such visualising would definately be
sectarian as it is a direct insuklt to these great lama's. why not
simply get on with your practice and not concern yourself with other
people's practice.
>
>Now if Shugden represents Buddha for Mr. Burns, let him by all means meditate
>on Shugden. What is a symbol of Buddha for Mr. Burns might be conceived by
>me as a symbol of ignorance and the causes of suffering. To each his own
>Dharma practice.
>
>But instead of these, I would now propose instead to visualize a free and
>liberated Tibet in which HH the Dalai Lama is re-enthroned in Lhasa, and in
>which Buddhist Practice of whatever lineage may be cultivated to benefit all
>sentient beings.
Then you speak a contradiction. The Tibetan constitution which would
operate in such a free Tibet now denies that dorje Shugdan
practitioners have the right to be judges or to be jurors.
So much for all practitoners of whatever lineage can practice in a
free Tibet. Obviuosly this does not include the lineage of HH Trijang
Ripoche who taught all his disciples to rely upon dorje shugdan
including HHDL.
Ignatius Wong
Kent Sandvik wrote in message
<1ddto7w.da...@sandvik.vip.best.com>...
>Mangalam, Kent
>PS: Read Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe, just out, and excellent
>Buddha-dharma.
Thanks.
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Alan:
>
>You know I had you on a filter up until a recent crash / upgrade to my
>computer. I'd really prefer not to get to thinking that having a discussion
>with you was futile as I know it is with Tingli. Maybe you have innocently
>got two threads mixed up, I can't say. But I don't have the vaguest idea
>what you are talking about when in a accusatory tone "can you please answer
>the point about the Newsweek article,
Hi Mick,
I wondered why I had escaped your kilfile. Nothing is
permenent it seems, not even your kilfile, but as buddhists we know
that:-)
The accusatory tone was not implied. However, on the 15th
August you replied to a post by Tringley on this thread. In that
thread he mentions the 'Newsweek' article. Something presumably you
would accpet is not Swedish etc and is a serious american news
magazine.
It was to that reply of yours that I responded to. There is
also the story in News International. Not sure how well that journal
is known in America, but in Europe it is highly respected.
You wonder when this story will hit 'BIG'. If the present
circumstances continue then it will do so, sadly it is only a matter
of time. It seems that the most recent oppression of restricting
freedom of movement of Dorje Shugdan practitioners may well prove to
be the final act that will blow away the public cover of this
oppression, that is sadly taken place.
We shall have to see, but I imagine we will see much more on this
issue towards the end of the year.
Let us hope that this issue is resolved before this happens.
Alan Bird
>Alan Bird wrote:
>>
>> On 14 Aug 1998 15:00:53 PDT, JCor...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>> But anyway, just to answer these silly comments.
>
>A bit miffed you say my comments are silly. Is this some
>misunderstanding?
Hi JC,
Sorry, I appear to have misread your intent. some on the newsgroup
make silly comments that this whole issue is a way of gathering money,
claiming that some groups involved in trying to bring this sad
situation into the public eye, are merely seeking money. This is a
silly and ridiculous accusation, but it is often made, just wait and
it will surely pop up again here.
>
>>
>> No money is requried, merely write a letter to groups like Amnesty
>> International raising your concerns. Specifically you can mention this
>> latest abuse of human rights, in which the exiled Tiibetan government
>> is denying freedom of travel to Dorje Shugdan practitioners.
>>
>
>I can try that, if that's what you prefer.
You could try contacting the monks in India who are resisting this
ban, I am sure they would be pleased to hear from you.
In the meantime I would suggest you write to AI, and politicians,
governments and other groups who you think may be able to help and
tell them your concerns.
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Alan Bird <alan...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> You are free to visualise as you wish, but why you shouyld wish to
>> take a heart practice of a great lama of HH Trijanf Rinpoche, song
>> Rinpcohe, Je Phabongkharoa, Lama Yeshe to name just a few I find very
>> difficult to undersdtand. such visualising would definately be
>> sectarian as it is a direct insuklt to these great lama's. why not
>> simply get on with your practice and not concern yourself with other
>> people's practice.
>
>I'm a lousy speller, but don't I feel that you are very agitated, and
>you are whiping out words left and right, even not checking the spelling
>of such glorious lamas such as Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche? At least
>Lama Yeshe was correct :-). Anyway, putting the spelling aside, what I
>personally read between the lines is that you have a lot of suffering
>currently, and that's really sad.
Kent,
What you have discovered is that I am slightly dyslexic, if I
spend alot of time rereading posts, and putting it through spell
checkers etc., I can avoid most of them. I keep meaning to make more
effort.
Any ideas of anger you think I hold are sadly mistaken. I have
very little suffering at present. This may be my misfortune as it
could mean that any good karma I have is ripening externally. It
woiuld be better for me if I had some suffering which I could then use
in my practise and try to transform into stages of the path.
>
>All I could offer is that in order for you to get peace in your mind,
>you have to start from yourself, accept that there are differences and
>just continue? The constant finger pointing will just cause you more and
>more suffering, there's little we could do from the outside than just
>influence you to get to a point where you should no longer worry and
>make a lot of karmic negativities that will cause you even more
>suffering later.
I am merely pointing the finger at the ban and the sad effexcts this
is having. What I find sad is that you instantly interpret this as an
attack upon HHDL. It would ber more helpful if you could explain why
you beklieve it is not unjust that the provisionry Tibetan
constitution which would operate in a free Tibet was changed in 1996
so that it now says that Dorje Shugdan practitioners would not be
allowed to be judges or jurors in this so called 'free Tibet'.
This change in the constitution as taken place, it is easily
verifyable by anyone wishing to do so.
You call my pointing that change out as a sign of my suffering and
attacking HHDL. I do not see why or how that follows.
Rather then trying to judge what my motivation and state of mind is,
something Kent you are not able to know, but can only submisse, why
not kep to these sad facts that I and others keep trying to raise.
Mick_G
This morning I tried to log on to the Newsweek server, and it was down
temporarily. So when they get up I'll see what I can do about searching for
the article. Maybe there is an article referring to this subject. But Alan
this discussion you have started here is again typical. First his minor
comment was in reply to my comment that I was not going to communicate with
him. Maybe you have not read many of Tingli's messages, but he is a
shameless supporter of the PRC and does spread propaganda, lies and half
truths. Now you wave a flag challenging me to answer his response, well I'll
ask you now, have you read this article in Newsweek? I think if there is an
article, it will be another comment on a NKT demonstration somewhere where
HHDL appeared for a talk. This is not new information. We all know that
there have been protests, this does not prove in anyway that the NKT / DS
position is just or right. But I'll reserve judgement until I've found the
article.
And on the subject of Tingli's challenge, I might add that I've caught him
in out and out lies. Not long ago when India exploded a nuclear device he
posted multiple messages where he stated that HHDL supports India's action.
He then goes on to say that it was available on the AP web site. Well
because I'm fairly knowledgeable about searching the web I went looking for
it. Couldn't find it and told him so. He went on to say I was lazy....etc.
That made me redouble my efforts. Finally found it on another server, from a
reference on the AP server. I then read this article, and in it HHDL
specifically condemned nuclear weapons, but said, that it was hypocritical
of the super powers to condemn India for something all of them had done. Not
exactly a support of India. This does show Tingli's propaganda techniques.
Just state that some event or document exists, but don't give the reader
enough information to find out for themselves. Next misquote, or take a
small comment out of context. Next claim the reader can find out for
themselves the dastardly deed. And finally repeat the same slogan /I.E. lie
over and over again and use it as accepted truth.
The reason I've gone to such an extensive commentary on Tingli's past
actions, is because I want you to understand the sort of person you have
decided to align yourself with. This man is anti Tibet, anti Buddhism and
anti HHDL. He in all kinds of small snide comments has shown he has no
respect for the practice of Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in particular. He
is full of anger and animosity towards anyone who challenges the cruel
actions taken by China in Tibet. Now when you saw his comment about the
Newsweek article you jumped on the bandwagon and I suspect had no first hand
knowledge about said article. You just saw another opportunity to wave the
religious freedom banner of the DS issue. Well I hope you think hard about
what sort of people you support when you act with such haste. You do not
help your cause and definitely hurt Buddhism when you support a hateful
person like Tingli.
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d6d5a...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
Alan Bird
wrote:
<snipped>
> Well I hope you think hard about
>what sort of people you support when you act with such haste. You do not
>help your cause and definitely hurt Buddhism when you support a hateful
>person like Tingli.
Hello Mick,
I did say in the original mailing to which you posted that I do not
support Tingly's views or would wish to give credence to them in
anyway. The mere fact that tingli decided ti further use this to
further his hate campaign against HHDL is something I, you or anyone
else has very little controll of.
the issue, is not whether Tingli writes about this or anyone else,
the question is whether the truth is being reported.
For example, in January this year HHDL said that a commission of his
own cabinet had studied alleged cases of violence against dorje
Shugdan practitioners, but concluded that all such reports where
completely false.
However, only a few months later, after protests over the ban when he
visited New York, he later had to say that he condemned cases of
violence against dorje Shugdan practitioners. This is something you
can easily discover for yourself.
You have said you will look into the matter about the restriction on
travel on Dorje Shughdan practitioners. I am glad you are doing this.
This is the way you will discover the truth on this matter. Then you
will have some bases on which to either accuse people of spreading
baseless rumours and porperganda.
Hope you are well
Joe Zilincar
Please post the reference for the Newsweek article that you refer to so I
can find it and read it for myself. If in fact, such an article exists
then, supplying a reference would be quite simple.
Thanks,
Joe
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d61fd4...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>>Mick
>
>Not wishing to get involved with the wider political campaign of
>tingli, since all I wish is for the ban on Dorje Shugdan to be lifted.
>but Mick, can you please answer the point about the Newsweek article,
>is this just lies and hogwash too?
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mick_G
You keep getting farther and farther afield, that is the reason I quit
talking to you before. We are all known by the company we keep. If you keep
aligning yourself with the people who want the downfall of HHDL and the
destruction of Buddhism, well what are people supposed to think. This is why
you had better have your facts straight and clear before you make
accusations. Again I have to remind you, I don't have to prove anything, you
have to prove, and I might say to the same degree that a criminal trial is
to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt before you'll sway me. Now let's again
look at what you said in your latest message to me.
"For example, in January this year HHDL said that a commission of his
own cabinet had studied alleged cases of violence against dorje
Shugdan practitioners, but concluded that all such reports where
completely false." Your next assertion was:
"However, only a few months later, after protests over the ban when he
visited New York, he later had to say that he condemned cases of
violence against dorje Shugdan practitioners. "
You've tried to do this sort of thing before, and frankly it is blantant
distortion. Why is it you feel it is somekind of contradiction for HHDL to
have a commission that finds that violence agains DS practioners had not
happened and at the same time condemn any violence against them?????? The
fact that he condemns violence agains DS practioners does not mean that it
has occured, just means his disaproval of anyone taking such action. Again,
if you have to reach for this kind of proof, you make me believe that your
whole apeal to me is false.
You can not sway me with half truths, I am a Buddhist who to some degree
prides him self on having some what of a sharp mind. If you are going to
catch my ear, show me something I can hang my hat on, and when you can't and
you keep showing vailed inuendo, no matter how horrid in it's nature, with
very few independatly varifiable, facts.... Well I for one tend to
disbelieve it all.
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d718c8...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:47:56 -0700, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com>
>wrote:
>
><snipped>
>
>
>
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Alan:
>
>You keep getting farther and farther afield, that is the reason I quit
>talking to you before. We are all known by the company we keep. If you keep
>aligning yourself with the people who want the downfall of HHDL and the
>destruction of Buddhism, well what are people supposed to think.
Mick,
It is you who are wishing to align me with Tingli.
If you wish to believe I am anti-HHDL then go ahead and think so. You
cannot know my motivation on this and it is impossible for me to prove
to you any other. So if that is your conclusion, so be it.
>
>You've tried to do this sort of thing before, and frankly it is blantant
>distortion. Why is it you feel it is somekind of contradiction for HHDL to
>have a commission that finds that violence agains DS practioners had not
>happened and at the same time condemn any violence against them?????? The
>fact that he condemns violence agains DS practioners does not mean that it
>has occured, just means his disaproval of anyone taking such action. Again,
>if you have to reach for this kind of proof, you make me believe that your
>whole apeal to me is false.
>
>You can not sway me with half truths, I am a Buddhist who to some degree
>prides him self on having some what of a sharp mind. If you are going to
>catch my ear, show me something I can hang my hat on, and when you can't and
>you keep showing vailed inuendo, no matter how horrid in it's nature, with
>very few independatly varifiable, facts.... Well I for one tend to
>disbelieve it all.
Mick,
Then I suggesat you re-read the article in Time Magazine published
11th May this year. I have quoted it many times before and rather then
repeat parts of it in the mailing you replied too, I was hoping you
may have remembered it.
Anyway, The article is called "Monks v Monks". It is in three
columns. In the second paragraph of the third column it reads
"Addressing charges of shunning, threats and even physical abuse
against shugdenites, American Dalai Lama advisert John Ackerman admits
that 'there have been cases of haressment,' all condemned by the High
Lama".
Rather then continueing to accuse people of using inuendoes etc and
knowingly or knowingly misrepresenting people, please become more
acquinted with the facts.
"There have been cases of haressment". That seems fairly clear. Add to
this the News International Report, the 'Sunday Times' Report. The BBC
Correspondence, as well as the German Panorama and the Swiss News
report, you cannot forever go on claiming that this is all lies.
I look forward to discovering what you find about the necessary
documentation needed for exiled Tibetans in India to travel aboard. In
previous mailings you seemed to think I was either lying or mislead
about the necessary papers needed for exile-Tibetans to travel outside
of India.
Mike, please do not judge my motivation, you cannot know what it is.
You can only guess from ignorence. I have searched my own conscience
on this matter many times and honestly believe that my motivation is a
wish to see this ban lifted and nothing else. Of course I must
continue to search my conscience on this matter continuously.
I am not anti-HHDL, however I am anti the ban on Dorje Shugdan
practitioners.
Take care
Mick_G
On Sunday, Newsweek's server was down, so I could not use a search engine to
see if I could find such an article. I did notice when I asked Alan if he,
since he had challenged me to comment on the Newsweek article, and I asked
if he had actually read the article, seemed surprisingly silent about that
in his recent message to me. I am rapidly becoming more convinced as time
goes by that this entire issue about DS is one giant ruse. I don't know the
exact motives behind the leaders who are promoting the so called cause
"Religious Freedom issue" but this discussion seems more and more like the
programmed propaganda seen on the talk.politics.tibet newsgroup, just a
little to contrived. This also makes me feel with each passing half baked
post I see from a DS supporter that HHDL is exactly correct in asking
Tibetan Buddhist to refrain from the practice. If the results of practicing
DS is that people loose their sharp minds to differentiate the wheat from
the chaff, it can't be could for a person.
Mick
Joe Zilincar wrote in message
<6r7i3m$dp28$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Joe Zilincar
Thanks, I share your opinion. I tried to log onto Newsweek site after
reading Alan's post and keep getting "error" messages. If such an article
existed then it would be easy to post where it could be found, of course if
it doesn't exist... then silence from Alan!
Joe
Mick_G wrote in message <6r7lit$p5p$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Tribune News Service, INDIA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
end WTN NEWS 98/07/31
------------------- World Tibet Network News -------------------------------
Published by: The Canada-Tibet Committee
Editorial Board: Brian Given, Nima Dorjee, Conrad Richter
Tseten Samdup, Thubten (Sam) Samdup
wtn-e...@tibet.ca
Submissions to: wt...@vm1.mcgill.ca or fax to +44-171-722-0362 (U.K.)
Subscriptions to: list...@vm1.mcgill.ca (message: SUB WTN-L [your name])
Cancellations to: list...@vm1.mcgill.ca (message: SIGNOFF WTN-L)
Archived at: http://www.tibet.ca
Mick_G
This is my last post to you. You are missing the point entirely. I see you
do give me a reference I can at least try to find, a Time article May 11th,
I'll see if I can read it for myself. But again you yourself quote the
article, "Addressing charges of shunning, threats and even physical abuse
against shugdenites, American Dalai Lama dvisert John Ackerman admits that
'there have been cases of haressment,' all condemned by the High Lama". Does
this line to you seem like major, widespread organized abuse? I've never
claimed that there has not been some kind of harm befalling DS practitioners
in the Tibetan Community, seems perfectly logical that there would be some
Tibetans who thinking they are doing the right thing and having little real
understanding of the dharma, would act in foolish ways. But that is not what
you and your fellow DS people have claimed. You have claimed it is
orchestrated by the Tibetan Government in Exile. That this is a grave
situation. That you have knowledge of these acts, as though it is first
hand, which it isn't. You miss the point.
You also jumped right over the point I made about the "Newsweek article" I
asked if you had read it. Since in several messages now you have not
mentioned it I presume that you haven't. See again I was trying to give you
some insight as to why I'm so skeptical. When a person becomes a mouthpiece
for a political agenda, and stops being a sharp think individual, you become
a pawn. I believe that is exactly what the leaders of DS "Religious Freedom
Issue" have done, turned their followers into pawns of some political
agenda. They publish these long diatribes of accusations of widespread
repression of Dorje Shugdan practitioners and you feeling empathy for your
teachers, become automatons and spread the word. Because you have stopped to
think and only mouth slogans, anyone who comes along and says anything that
supports your cause is a buddy, AKA Tigli.
And as for judging your motivation, sure I can not judge your motivation,
that is not for me but for your karma to play out. I can however try and
find out what is motivating you to consistently be evasive, confusing and
frankly muddled. People ask questions and you counter with accusations.
People ask for facts, and you tell them to look for themselves????? This
message I think is the very first time you have actually given a reference
for someone to check. I have to admit Alan I've grown weary of this
discussion again. You people just tire me out. I'm tired of having a battle
of wits with unarmed opponents. So I'm retiring from this discussion again
for the upteenth time one would think I'd know better.
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d7603e...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:53:55 -0700, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com>
>wrote:
>
> It is you who are wishing to align me with Tingli.
>If you wish to believe I am anti-HHDL then go ahead and think so. You
>cannot know my motivation on this and it is impossible for me to prove
>to you any other. So if that is your conclusion, so be it.
>
>
Kent Sandvik
> What you have discovered is that I am slightly dyslexic, if I
> spend alot of time rereading posts, and putting it through spell
> checkers etc., I can avoid most of them. I keep meaning to make more
> effort.
Sorry. I was just mapping something from my side to you, when I get
agitated I write letters left and write and don't spend time correcting
mistakes and such.
> I am merely pointing the finger at the ban and the sad effexcts this
> is having. What I find sad is that you instantly interpret this as an
> attack upon HHDL. It would ber more helpful if you could explain why
> you beklieve it is not unjust that the provisionry Tibetan
> constitution which would operate in a free Tibet was changed in 1996
> so that it now says that Dorje Shugdan practitioners would not be
> allowed to be judges or jurors in this so called 'free Tibet'.
Still, looking at the volumes of post you are doing, it seems to really
nag you, constantly, I must confess. It's indeed good to work for a good
cause, and I applaud such things. But in this case we are dealing with a
very delicate issue, kind of placing out lamas against each other, and I
don't think this is good at all. It just leads to more misery and
suffering.
To start with, I assume you subscribe to the notion that all lamas and
ultimately all sentient beings are Buddhas and bodhisattvas. Thus going
and speaking negativities about others will break bodhisattva and other
vows left and right.
Secondly, cultivating the world view that there's wrong and right
creates the karmic environment where one is indeed used to such
experiencces, from life to life.
Thirdly, getting involved in this without even knowing all the details
is very dangerous, as it leads to one thinking that one is right, and
maybe one is totally wrong as not all the details are present.
Fourthly, as Shantideva stated, better working on one's leather shoes to
cover the ground.
> Rather then trying to judge what my motivation and state of mind is,
> something Kent you are not able to know, but can only submisse, why
> not kep to these sad facts that I and others keep trying to raise.
For me it seems you are stuck in a really samsaric and bad circle, and I
really feel sorry for you.
Mangalam, Kent
Kent Sandvik
> Is this 'concern' political in nature? The Amnesty International has no
> 'concern' about
> reporting human right violation in China. Why should it have been
> different when being applied
> to the DL scenario? Is there any US CIA influence involved?
Gee, now Amnesty International is controlled by CIA. Maybe the
Freemasons rule the world, after all :-).
Mangalam, Kent
Kent Sandvik
> pa...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
>
> > Now is the time to support His Holiness the Dalai Lama in his efforts to
> > restore freedom and independance to Buddhist Tibet;
> -------------------
> Have these two things as 'freedom and independence' ever existed in
> Tibet at all
> since time memorial?
You could start by asking a Tibetan, instead of guessing.
Mangalam, KEnt
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> James:
>
> I find it interesting that the only correct information is the information
> put out by the NKT. Amnesty international is in cahoots with the Government
> in Excile, the US media is silenced by their awe of HHDL, everyone who has a
> different observation is just not seeing the facts. This is all such hog
> wash. The amount of so called repression is miniscule and has no real
> bearing on The Tibetan Government in Excile. This subject is just blown
> completely out of proportion to the facts. Also your constant use of the
> talk.politics.tibet newsgroup for your propaganda makes you willingly or
> unwillingly a pawn of the anti Tibet forces of the PRC.
Mick,
Are you suggesting that James is another one of those paid propagandists
of the PRC like
Wing and Goodman? At the present moment I am unemployed, perhaps you
should tell me where
I can get a paid job as a PRC propagandist.
FP
>
> Mick
>
> James Burns wrote in message ...
> >In article <6qujqi$1ugs$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>, The Puddies
> ><pud...@frontiernet.net> writes
> >
> >>Recently an article was posted showing that His Holiness's government in
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
-----------------snipped off-----------
>
> Giving yourself a particularised and self-certified clean bill of health
> is different than someone else doing it. I am led to believe that there
> is a lengthy Amnesty International report that does condemn the actions
> of His Holiness. However it has not been published so far. There is
> concern about their reluctance to publish.
-------------------
Is this 'concern' political in nature? The Amnesty International has no
'concern' about
reporting human right violation in China. Why should it have been
different when being applied
to the DL scenario? Is there any US CIA influence involved?
FP
---------------snipped off---------
Francis Y.F.Poon
Has there been any report about HL having sex with his followers? I
would be
very interested. After all, DL is a normal man.
FP
Mick_G wrote:
>
> So tiresome Tingli, we've had conversations before. Trying to raise my ire
> by trying to imply my hypocrisy just won't work, you have already branded
> yourself nothing more than a dupe for the PRC who will print anything to try
> and support the PRC and condemn HHDL. I will not talk to you in the future,
> because it is a futile act.
>
> Mick
>
> Tingli Pan wrote in message <6r2o2d$t2k$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
> >In article <6qv52f$eqs$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> >Mick_G <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> >>James:
> >>
> >>I find it interesting that the only correct information is the information
> >>put out by the NKT. Amnesty international is in cahoots with the
> Government
> >>in Excile, the US media is silenced by their awe of HHDL, everyone who has
> a
> >>different observation is just not seeing the facts. This is all such hog
> >>wash. The amount of so called repression is miniscule and has no real
> >>bearing on The Tibetan Government in Excile. This subject is just blown
> >>completely out of proportion to the facts. Also your constant use of the
> >>talk.politics.tibet newsgroup for your propaganda makes you willingly or
> >>unwillingly a pawn of the anti Tibet forces of the PRC.
> >>
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> Now is the time to support His Holiness the Dalai Lama in his efforts to
> restore freedom and independance to Buddhist Tibet;
-------------------
Have these two things as 'freedom and independence' ever existed in
Tibet at all
since time memorial?
FP
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> Francis Y.F.Poon <fyf...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> > Is this 'concern' political in nature? The Amnesty International has no
> > 'concern' about
> > reporting human right violation in China. Why should it have been
> > different when being applied
> > to the DL scenario? Is there any US CIA influence involved?
>
> Freemasons rule the world, after all :-).
>
> Mangalam, Kent
I asked a question but you have not answered it. Now you get another
chance.
FP
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> Mangalam, KEnt
I did. My best option trader client is a Tibetan. He considers all
that talk about
Tibet independence is bullshit. He is looking forward to the opening of
a large stock
exchange center in the capital of Tibet.
FP
Richard Menninger
> I asked a question but you have not answered it. Now you get another
> chance.
You dressed up a crock of shit as a question and now
you are fanning the odor around. I am not interested
in participating in the general DS/HHDL farting around
but that junk from you on Amnesty International was
just plain stupid.
Take care of yourself
Dick
use rmenn...@lucent.com as it works now and
r...@winner.lc.lucent.com will stop being my maibox soon
Mick_G
James Burns
Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
address:
Jampel Yeshe (Chairman)
Dorje Shugden Charitable and Religious Society,
N230 Greater Kailash Part 1,
New Delhi 110024
INDIA
Tel: (00-91) 11-642-5897
Fax: (00-91) 11-647-4646 Attn: N230
E-mail: do...@del3.vsnl.net.in
Any gesture or support would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
=======================================
May You Be Filled With Loving Kindness,
May You Be Well,
May You Be Peaceful And At Ease,
And May You Have Happiness
=======================================
James Burns
In article <PaGSUSAO...@metanode.demon.co.uk>, James Burns
<jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>
>DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
>===========================================================
>
>The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
>and His administration. It makes a mockery of His fine words and
>sentiments expressed in the West regarding such things as openness
>freedom, dialogue and human rights. He is following a policy of
>repression of human rights and freedoms based in religious prejudice the
>likes of which have not been seen in the West since the mid nineteen
>thirties. Support in the West for the Dalai Lama, must not continue if
>he does not stop such degrading tactics against a section of his own
>people.
>
>As you will see from the letter the Dalai Lama is effectively now trying
>to contain the Dorje Shugden issue within the confines of the exiled
>community by denying Dorje Shugden Devotees freedom of movement. It is
>now more important than ever that investigative journalists from the
>West find out the truth of what is going on and let the rest of the
>world know about the two sides of the Dalai Lama. Dorje Shugden Devotees
>in India have now been effectively banned from foreign travel. It is
>therefore essential that Dorje Shugden practitioners and sympathisers in
>the West keep up their campaign to restablish the basic human rights and
>freedom's for these people in India.
>
>Any assistance from independent people with a concern for humanitarian
>issues would be most welcome. The Dalai Lama gains his strength from the
>uncritical support that he receives from people in the West. This
>combined with Western Public funding has given him a sense of relative
>invulnerability to criticism. It is important that this issue is
>brought to the attention of as many media and political figures in the
>West as possible.
>
>The Dalai Lama has paid professional Public Relations and Media people
>who have been working for him to try and marginalise and minimalise this
>issue. They have been putting out a stream of propaganda in an attempt
>to cover up the extent and seriousness of what has been happening.
>However the issue speaks for itself and any objective investigation
>shows it's true nature.
>
>The Dorje Shugden Coalition has only limited funds and any third part
>support on this issue would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>LETTER:
>
>===============================================
>From:
>
>Department of Religion and Culture
>Central Tibetan Administration of HH the Dalai Lama
>===============================================
>
>To:
>
> Settlement and Welfare Officers,
>
>Concerning monks and nuns who wish to travel to foreign countries after
>obtaining recommendation letter from the local settlement and welfare
>officer on the strength of authorisation letter from their monasteries,
>after these are received at this office, (this office) has to obtain
>authorisation from the Cabinet Secretariat after verifying whether or
>not the candidate meets the following requirements. It is therefore
>recommended that the concerned local officers verify these requirements
>at the outset before issuing their recommendation letters:
>
>1 Certificate from the local Freedom Movement Office verifying the
>serial number of the candidate's tax book for Tibetan freedom and the
>faithful payment of the Tibetan freedom tax dues.
>
>2 Photocopy of the candidate's Foreigner's Registration
>Certificate for Tibetans living in India and its serial number.
>
>3 Attestation from their monastery and the abbot, that neither the
>host, whether private or organisation, as well as the invitee is a
>devotee of Dhogyal [Dorje Shugden], that neither the host nor the
>invitee has any connection with Dhogyal.
>
>4 Endorsement and stamp of the nearest Indian mission in the
>host's country on the invitation letter.
>
>5 Attestation letter, if the host is a Tibetan, that the host has
>faithfully paid the Tibetan freedom tax dues.
>
>A recommendation letter bearing clear mention of each of the above
>requirements would help us to speedily obtain clearance from the Cabinet
>Secretariat. Hence we recommend that the local officers implement this
>directive accordingly.
>
>May 19, 1998
>(Signed)
>Terizin Topgyal
>Assistant General Secretary
>(Under the Seal of the Dept of Religion and Culture)
>===============================================================
>
>The above letter directly contravenes:
>
>Article 13 (2) of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 10th
>December 1948
>
>'Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to
>return to his country.
>
>Article 12 (2) of the UN International Covenant on Civil and Political
>Rights, 16th December 1966
>
>'Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
>
>Article 21 of the Indian Constitution
>
>Protection of life and personal liberty . No person shall be deprived of
>his life or personal liberty except according to procedure established
>by law. [According to
>Indian law the "right to travel abroad is included within the expression
>'personal liberty"'. (V.N. Shukla's Constitution ofindia)]
>
>It also directly contravenes Article 18 of the (proposed) Constitution
>of Tibet
>
>'Subject to the law imposing reasonable restrictions in the interests of
>the security of the State, public order, health or morality, all
>citizens shall be entitled to..(e) the right to a passport to
>travel outside those (Tibetan) territories. '
>
>The letter indirectly contravenes:
>
>Article 2 of the UN Declaration of the Elimination of all Forms of
>Intolerance ..., 25th November 1981
>
>'No one shall be subject to discrimination by any State, institution
>groups or persons on the grounds of religion or other beliefs.'
>
>Article 3 of the (proposed) Constitution of Tibet
>
>'It shall be the duty of the Government of Tibet to adhere strictly' to
>the Universal Declaration of Human Right and to promote the moral and
>material welfare of the people of Tibet.'
>
>Article 17 (1) of the (proposed) Constitution of Tibet
>
>'All religious denominations are equal before the law.'
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Alan:
>
>This is my last post to you. You are missing the point entirely. I see you
>do give me a reference I can at least try to find, a Time article May 11th,
>I'll see if I can read it for myself.
Mick,
We always appear to go in circles whenever we discuss this
issue. Anyway, I will try again. I will keep my points very short in
the hope that we can actually communicate.
>But again you yourself quote the
>article, "Addressing charges of shunning, threats and even physical abuse
>against shugdenites, American Dalai Lama dvisert John Ackerman admits that
>'there have been cases of haressment,' all condemned by the High Lama". Does
>this line to you seem like major, widespread organized abuse? I've never
>claimed that there has not been some kind of harm befalling DS practitioners
>in the Tibetan Community, seems perfectly logical that there would be some
>Tibetans who thinking they are doing the right thing and having little real
>understanding of the dharma, would act in foolish ways.
I clearly made a simple point, which I will repeat again here.
Earlier this year HHDL said that a commission of his cabinet looked
into claims of violence against Dorje Shugdan practitioners. The
commission found not one case of any abuse.
A few months later however we have this statement giving to the 'Times
International' reporter David Van Biema. Here we are told that they
have been cases of haressment.
I merely point out that there is a contradiction here.
>But that is not what
>you and your fellow DS people have claimed. You have claimed it is
>orchestrated by the Tibetan Government in Exile. That this is a grave
>situation. That you have knowledge of these acts, as though it is first
>hand, which it isn't. You miss the point.
It was the Tibetan Parliment who imposed the ban, it was the exile
government who encouraged the actions of those who searched people's
houses. It is HHDL and his government who constantly referes to
Tibetan Dorje Shugdan practitioners as enemies of Tibet, traitors
etc.,
It is inevitable that if HHDL continues blaming Dorje Shugdan
practitioners for the sad situation Tibetans currently find themselves
in, that this will cause division within the exiled communities
One virulent example of this where a mob attacked one house, and the
Indian police advised the family to leave their home because they
could not protect them.
**Newspaper reports dated Nov 7th, 8th 1996, the story was covered in
'New Bharat Times', 'JVG Times', Rashtriya Sahara and other Indian
papers.
A ban in which Taski Angdu, a member of parliment has made statements
threatening Dorje Shugdan practitioners with violence. He also has
said in a televised report "Worshipping deities that are not
recognised by the Government is against the law".
Are we really to believe that a commission of HHDL own cabinet after
doing an exhaustive enquiry had no details about these matters.
<snipped>
>And as for judging your motivation, sure I can not judge your motivation,
>that is not for me but for your karma to play out. I can however try and
>find out what is motivating you to consistently be evasive, confusing and
>frankly muddled. People ask questions and you counter with accusations.
Mick,
I do not believe that what I have written in this thread to be
evasive etc., I have raised the same point again here. If you chose to
address that point that is for you to decide, currently you have not
done so.
>People ask for facts, and you tell them to look for themselves?????
This is simply false. I, and others, have in the past provided details
of reports to which you respond with simple denials. I have provided
you with the e-mail; address of journalists or of TV Channels so that
you could confirm these for yourself if you so wish. I can do no more
than that. By the way, did you ever write tro the Swiss TV Channel and
ask them for a copy of their news report?
>This
>message I think is the very first time you have actually given a reference
>for someone to check.
This is not true, I have provided references before, you choose to
question them, which is only fair. I have then provided you with the
e-mail addresses of journalists, TV News Channels etc., I can do no
more than that.
<snipped>
> I have to admit Alan I've grown weary of this
>discussion again.
I have been weary of it for along time now. But I believe that it is
necessary to bring this sad situation to an end. There are reasons to
believe that the Indian Government will finally be addressing this
issue but this may take many months. In the mean time I know that many
people, some journalists do read this newsgroup and they do ask for
documentation. This issue will not go away until the Tibetan
practitioners of Dorje Shugdan are no longer called enemies of Tibet
and people who oppose the long life of HHDL.
Chrages which are false.
Mick_G
are achieved by these people, but soon they just become incoherent? The
other amazing factoid is that they keep telling lies, half truths and
obfuscate until at some point they decide to publish a URL to something as
proof of their point. Invariably you check out there "article" and find they
either haven't actually read it, because it says the exact opposite, or they
figure no one will call their bluff????
All of this makes me wonder, what is this thing called wisdom, intelligence,
acuity of thought? Why is it so many people still end up in a little game
with their mind, I guess it always with out exception ends up being one more
example of vision being clouded by ego. Sad, but inevitable I guess.
Mick
Richard Menninger wrote in message
<35D8515A...@winner.lc.lucent.com>...
Joe Zilincar
contact:
Tibet House, 1 Culworth Street
London NW8 7AF
Tel: 0044-171-722-5378
Fax: 0044-171-722-0362
tibet...@gn.apc.org
or Tibet Fund: http://www.tibetfund.org/index.html
or the Milarepa Fund: http://www.milarepa.org./
or 1998 Panchen Lama Campaign:
http://www.rangzen.com/panchenlama/gcnbio.html
Tribune News Service, INDIA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
end WTN NEWS 98/07/31
Joe
James Burns wrote in message ...
>
Kent Sandvik
> Kent Sandvik wrote:
> > Francis Y.F.Poon <fyf...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is this 'concern' political in nature? The Amnesty International has no
> > > 'concern' about
> > > reporting human right violation in China. Why should it have been
> > > different when being applied
> > > to the DL scenario? Is there any US CIA influence involved?
> >
> > Gee, now Amnesty International is controlled by CIA. Maybe the
> > Freemasons rule the world, after all :-).
> chance.
OK, I answer. I don't know if the freemasons control the world, neither
if CIA controls Amnesty International. But looking at Amnesty
International's excellent track record helping those who are suffering
due to political and cultural violence, then I don't personally even
mind if CIA might control Amnesty International :-).
Mangalam, Kent
Mike Austin
<jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>
>Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
>Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
>address:
So, in giving this address in a public forum, you're not worried about
the possibility of 'heavies' paying them a visit? That's good to hear!
--
Mike Austin
Brian Tehan
to raise the temperature a bit. No one should respond to these because it is not
as if the author believed any of the garbage that he is posting.
The Dalai Lama is so dangerous that the PRC must marshall all their US students to
spread provocative lies - I got a mailbox full of this garbage a while ago.
I find it ironic that US universities appear to be have a large number of Tibetan
hating Chinese. You'd think that after a few years away from the propoganda of the
PRC they would learn to think for themselves.
Brian
Francis Y.F.Poon wrote:
> Kent Sandvik wrote:
> >
> > Francis Y.F.Poon <fyf...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> Francis Y.F.Poon <fyf...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> > Kent Sandvik wrote:
> > > Francis Y.F.Poon <fyf...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 'concern' about
> > > > reporting human right violation in China. Why should it have been
> > > > different when being applied
> > > > to the DL scenario? Is there any US CIA influence involved?
> > >
> > > Gee, now Amnesty International is controlled by CIA. Maybe the
> > > Freemasons rule the world, after all :-).
> > I asked a question but you have not answered it. Now you get another
> > chance.
>
> OK, I answer. I don't know if the freemasons control the world, neither
> if CIA controls Amnesty International. But looking at Amnesty
> International's excellent track record helping those who are suffering
> due to political and cultural violence, then I don't personally even
> mind if CIA might control Amnesty International :-).
You don't mind? I think many of us would.
FP
>
> Mangalam, Kent
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> Francis Y.F.Poon wrote:
>
> > I asked a question but you have not answered it. Now you get another
> > chance.
>
> you are fanning the odor around.
And you smelled it...maybe something is wrong with your nose.
I am not interested
> in participating in the general DS/HHDL farting around
> but that junk from you on Amnesty International was
> just plain stupid.
--------------
Yes, you are interested...obviously.
FP
Francis Y.F.Poon
>
> This is the kind of mindless crap
Rather than saying it is "mindless" as you have put it so ignorantly,
you might as well
admit that you don't actually understand the meaning of it. The
development of economic forces
which have been made possible by the economic reforms since DXP started
them is giving
the land of Tibet a chance to liberate itself from years of poverty and
misery. It does not
mean that the natives are not able to grow economically without the CCP
government. It simply says that given the current set of constraints,
economic development seems to be the best possible answer for Tibetans.
The other kind of romantic alternatives such as going for independence
is truly mindless crap entertained
by individuals who have no touch with reality.
that the agent provovateurs of the PRC put out
> to raise the temperature a bit.
------------------
Well, just tell me where I can get a paid job as a propagandist of the
PRC. I need one
right now.
No one should respond to these because it is not
> as if the author believed any of the garbage that he is posting.
------------------
Of course i do. You just fail to sense the humor of it and worse as it
is that you
don't understand the essence behind it.
> The Dalai Lama is so dangerous that the PRC must marshall all their US students to
> spread provocative lies
-----------------
Just show some evidence that the PRC government is marshalling 'all'
their US students to
do this rather than that individuals like myself who is not a student
come into this group
for the fun of discussion. Are you being 'mobilized' by DL to do it?
- I got a mailbox full of this garbage a while ago.
> I find it ironic that US universities appear to be have a large number of Tibetan
> hating Chinese.
-------------------
Hating Chinese as individuals as hating the form of government that is
governing it?
Hating individuals is a form of ignorant behavior. You know that.
You'd think that after a few years away from the propoganda of the
> PRC they would learn to think for themselves.
------------------------
What are you saying here? Be more precise.
FP
>
> Brian
>
> Francis Y.F.Poon wrote:
>
> > Kent Sandvik wrote:
> > >
> > > Francis Y.F.Poon <fyf...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> > >
wo...@tiw.com
James Burns <jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
>
> DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
> ===========================================================
>
> The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
> and His administration.
It is absurd to claim that HH the Dalai Lama is abusing human rights in India,
which is a free country.
If the Shugden lobby really believes that HH is abusing human rights, then why
don't they move to China and surrender to the PRC? Or do they feel that they
can do more for the cause of the Communist Party of the PRC by remaining in
India and attacking His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Mick_G
James Burns wrote in message ...
>
kin...@my-dejanews.com
wo...@tiw.com wrote:
> In article <PaGSUSAO...@metanode.demon.co.uk>,
> James Burns <jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
> >
> > DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
> > ===========================================================
> >
> > The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
> > and His administration.
>
> It is absurd to claim that HH the Dalai Lama is abusing human rights in India,
> which is a free country.
>
> If the Shugden lobby really believes that HH is abusing human rights, then why
> don't they move to China and surrender to the PRC? Or do they feel that they
> can do more for the cause of the Communist Party of the PRC by remaining in
> India and attacking His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
Are you kidding? If they moved back to the Motherland, their relatives would
be killed by the Dalai Lama supporters.
We the Chinese people are firmly behind the Shudgen Dorje people
and other Tibetan compatriots who are under the persecution
by the Dalai Lama clique. We believe that the Dalai Lama dictatorship
will soon coem to end and the exile Tibetan peoplle will soon be
liberated from the Dalai Lama clique and their foreign evil masters
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Alan Bird <alan...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> I am merely pointing the finger at the ban and the sad effexcts this
>> is having. What I find sad is that you instantly interpret this as an
>> attack upon HHDL. It would ber more helpful if you could explain why
>> you beklieve it is not unjust that the provisionry Tibetan
>> constitution which would operate in a free Tibet was changed in 1996
>> so that it now says that Dorje Shugdan practitioners would not be
>> allowed to be judges or jurors in this so called 'free Tibet'.
>
>Still, looking at the volumes of post you are doing, it seems to really
>nag you, constantly, I must confess. It's indeed good to work for a good
>cause, and I applaud such things. But in this case we are dealing with a
>very delicate issue, kind of placing out lamas against each other, and I
>don't think this is good at all. It just leads to more misery and
>suffering.
Defending one's lineage guru's is not necessarily mere 'placing out
lama's'. It depends why we defend them. If we believe that a
partcular lineage is still able to help sentient beings towards
enligthenment then to defend that lineage is to act with compassion
for sentient beings. They may be many dharma paths to enligthenment,
to destroy one those paths whilst sentient beings are still treading
it is not an act of compassion.
Not that I claim to have such a pure motivation, but it is the
motivation I am trying to develop.
I agree with you that it leads to muich misery and suffering, so why
oh why did HHDL impose this ban.
I have no desire to defend the belief that Dorje Shugdan is an
enlightened Dharmapala, or that HH Trijang Rinpoche was not "Wrong,"
to teach this practice throughout his life, and constantly promoted
this practice. It is something we will not resolve on this newsgroup.
However, I do believe it is wrong to tell Tibetans that those Tibetans
who continue to follow this practice taught to them by HH Trijang
Rinpoche are "enemies of Tibet", opponents to HHDL long-life',
'traitors' etc. This is sadly not true. Just because a Tibetan
continues to rely upon Dorje Shugdan this does not make them enemies
of Tibet or of HHDL. It is these false charges which are dividing the
Tibetan community. It is this reason I wisdh to see the ban lifted.
>
>To start with, I assume you subscribe to the notion that all lamas and
>ultimately all sentient beings are Buddhas and bodhisattvas. Thus going
>and speaking negativities about others will break bodhisattva and other
>vows left and right.
I agree. But we will need to decide what is a negativity, I believe
that it is wrong to say of the old men who acted as HHDL's bodyguards,
are not 'traitors', enemies of HHDL etc. these monks love HHDL as
much as ever and do not understand why he is speaking about them in
this way.Asking for this to stop is not wrong. If you believe it is
then please explain.
>
>Secondly, cultivating the world view that there's wrong and right
>creates the karmic environment where one is indeed used to such
>experiencces, from life to life.
Kent, if you believe what you write here as if it applies outright
without considering circumstances then you will stop posting it is
wrong for me to raise this issue here. You will have to stop thinking
it is wrong for the Chinese to illegaly occupy Tibet etc.,
I do not believe you think that, therefore your statement needs to be
clarified as to what circumstances you believe it applies to.
>
>Thirdly, getting involved in this without even knowing all the details
>is very dangerous, as it leads to one thinking that one is right, and
>maybe one is totally wrong as not all the details are present.
again one copuld say this about many things. People, are being called
enemies of Tibet, traiors, their neighbours are being told that it is
these people who are responcable for the present sad situation for
Tibet. It is HHDL and his government who have made these statements.
Is it surprising to them discover that Tibetan Dorje Shugdasn
practitioners are being alienated with the exile communities, some
being attacked in the street, driven from their homes etc.,
>
>Fourthly, as Shantideva stated, better working on one's leather shoes to
>cover the ground.
If one fells anger about situation, then I agree one needs to remove
the anger from one's mind. Has that is the only place anger can
originate. However, this does not mean that one excepts injustices and
says nothing.
If a person is being mugged one has compassion for the mugger and the
person mugged, one does not develop tolerance for the act of mugging,
as that leads to suffering for all concerned.
>
>> Rather then trying to judge what my motivation and state of mind is,
>> something Kent you are not able to know, but can only submisse, why
>> not kep to these sad facts that I and others keep trying to raise.
>
>For me it seems you are stuck in a really samsaric and bad circle, and I
>really feel sorry for you.
For you, that is how it may appear, but that is only how it appears to
you, you cannot know whether that is actually the case or not.
therefore, you should not write as if you know. This only makes the
issue emotive.
We need clean fire for debate, not the black smoke of emotive
comments. I know I have not always been free of this and that I too
need to try harder.
Thank you for sympathy.
Hope you are well Kent
Randy J
Mick_G <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
<6rc802$ct$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> Why would someone want to do that?
>
> James Burns wrote in message ...
> >
> >Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
> >Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
> >address:
maybe from a feeling of sympathy or compassion
do you think everyone shares your views?
rj
Mick_G
sympathy and compassion for real issues, not western novitiates fantasies.
Mick
Randy J wrote in message <01bdcad0$6eb1db40$3edf...@randy.ufl.edu>...
>
>
>Mick_G <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
><6rc802$ct$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>> Why would someone want to do that?
>>
>> James Burns wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
>> >Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
>> >address:
>
Randy J
Mick_G <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
<6rcfnm$na0$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> No I definitely do not think everyone shares my views. But I supply my
> sympathy and compassion for real issues, not western novitiates
fantasies.
>
> Mick
one western novitiate's fantasy is another western novitiate's real issue
and vice versa
rj
Namdrol
Mick_G wrote in message <6rc802$ct$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>Why would someone want to do that?
>
>James Burns wrote in message ...
>>
>>Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
>>address:
Well, they might wish to send their condolences. Shugden was recently slain
for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by the
Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back to
minding our business.
Namdrol
Mick_G
Mick
Randy J wrote in message <01bdcadf$2e277ee0$3edf...@randy.ufl.edu>...
Shu...@nospam.com
>
> Brian Tehan wrote:
> >
> > This is the kind of mindless crap
> --------------
> Rather than saying it is "mindless" as you have put it so ignorantly,
Isn't it amazing the ignoratns are calling facts they don't want to
admit to as "mindless crap"?
These people would like to label anything they don't want to hear as
"PRC propaganda". If a Tibetan says something against Tibet
independence, then the Tibetan must be part of that "PRC propaganda".
All who say anything anti-TI must be PRC AGENTS. They are of the same
mentality that sent the Japanese Americans to camps during WWII.
Nevermind facts. Brian and Mick_G, why not send all the Chinese
overseas students and all the Chinse Americans and all the Chinese
diaspora who happen to have some facts against Tibet independence to
camps. After all, they are ALL spreading "PRC propaganda". Even
anti-TI Tibetans should go to camp!
Oh yeah, Shuden believers, too. How dare they not follow HHDL? They
must be PRC agents! Off with them to camp!!!!
Shogun
Dennis Conkin
>
snip
>for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by the
>Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
>scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
>
>Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back to
>minding our business.
>
>Namdrol
>
dorje
Shu...@nospam.com
to PRC. They are just here to state their opinion and facts.
Many anti-Tibet-independence people are not sympathetic toward PRC.
They, too, are just here to state their opinion and facts.
Your mentality of equating everything you perceive as anti-HHDL as PRC
lover is ridiculous! It's a paranoia beyond belief! Who gave you these
ideas? The DL propaganda machine?
wo...@tiw.com wrote:
>
> In article <PaGSUSAO...@metanode.demon.co.uk>,
> James Burns <jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
> >
> > DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
> > ===========================================================
> >
> > The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
> > and His administration.
>
> It is absurd to claim that HH the Dalai Lama is abusing human rights in India,
> which is a free country.
>
> If the Shugden lobby really believes that HH is abusing human rights, then why
> don't they move to China and surrender to the PRC? Or do they feel that they
> can do more for the cause of the Communist Party of the PRC by remaining in
> India and attacking His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
>
Alan Bird
>In article <PaGSUSAO...@metanode.demon.co.uk>,
> James Burns <jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
>>
>> DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
>> ===========================================================
>>
>> The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
>> and His administration.
>
>It is absurd to claim that HH the Dalai Lama is abusing human rights in India,
>which is a free country.
>
>If the Shugden lobby really believes that HH is abusing human rights, then why
>don't they move to China and surrender to the PRC? Or do they feel that they
>can do more for the cause of the Communist Party of the PRC by remaining in
>India and attacking His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
This must be the sharp wisdom that Mick -G keeps going on about.
Take care
Alan Bird
wrote:
>
>
>Well, they might wish to send their condolences. Shugden was recently slain
>for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by the
>Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
>scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
>
>Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back to
>minding our business.
>
>Namdrol
Oh, well let us hope the HHDL also believes this. No point in the ban
since a dead 'spirit' cannot harm HHDL or Tibet.
Those of us who believe him to be an enlightened being, and therefore
a being who acts only from compassion, and thus talk of a Buddha
harming others is mere ignorence, can simply get on with our practice.
The Tibetans who continue to rely upon him can also get on with their
practice.
Not much point in banning a dead entity.Maybe this issue will come to
an end in a way few of us good forersee.
Alan Bird
>> It is absurd to claim that HH the Dalai Lama is abusing human rights in India,
>> which is a free country.
>>
>> If the Shugden lobby really believes that HH is abusing human rights, then why
>> don't they move to China and surrender to the PRC? Or do they feel that they
>> can do more for the cause of the Communist Party of the PRC by remaining in
>> India and attacking His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
>
>Are you kidding? If they moved back to the Motherland, their relatives would
>be killed by the Dalai Lama supporters.
>
>We the Chinese people are firmly behind the Shudgen Dorje people
>and other Tibetan compatriots who are under the persecution
>by the Dalai Lama clique.
Please get real. You choose to support the Dorje Shugdan issue because
you believe it strengthens your own camp.
If HHDL was promoting the practice of Dorje Shugdan you would be
banning it within Tibet.
Your support or lack of a support for an issue means little.
Mick_G
the agenda of the PRC very well indeed.
Mick
Shu...@nospam.com wrote in message <35D9E7...@nospam.com>...
Alan Bird
wrote:
>I don't think this is all PRC propaganda, far from it, but it does server
>the agenda of the PRC very well indeed.
>
>Mick
>
Mick, many things can serve the agenda of the RPC.
If the situation was reversed abd HHDL was promoting reliance upon
Dorje Shugdan you can be sure that the PRC would be condeming it
within Tibet.
It proves nothing what the PRC does. they are illeggal occupents of a
foreigh country. Of course they will usae division. If HHDL had not
banned the practice they would not be able to try and capitalise on
the situation.
Mick_G
him.
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d9e974...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
Mick_G
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35d9eefa...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
Don Martin
Namdrol <mfes...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Well, they might wish to send their condolences. Shugden was recently slain
> for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by the
> Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
> scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
> Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back to
> minding our business.
> Namdrol
******That is certainly good news. BTW remind me not to upset any
Vajrakilaya specialists. ;-)
--
Don,
( Foolishness personified and a friend of Sam Sara.)
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Lovely to see that Alan is so enlightened! We all have so much to learn from
>him.
>
>Mick
Just a bit of fun Mick.
I doubt you have much to learn from me,
and I am sadly not enlightened, however, for all I know you could well
be.
I can examinbe my own mind and know I am an ordinary sentient being. I
cannot examine yours, anf for all I know you may well be a Buddha.
either way, Buddha or sentient being, only though your great kindness
can I hope to become enlightened in the future.
Take care
Alan
Take care
Alan
>
>Alan Bird wrote in message <35d9e974...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:58:06 GMT, wo...@tiw.com wrote:
>>
>
>>This must be the sharp wisdom that Mick -G keeps going on about.
>>
Mick_G
Quit being so humble it doesn't become you. You have this incredible
knowledge that is so much more advanced than even HHDL. You seem to have a
good grasp of why he imposed the ban and the real secret agenda. You seem to
be able to interpret hidden meanings in statements made by his monks. You
seem to read articles that only mention the controversy and say nothing
about the right or wrong of it, yet you again can divine the underlying
motives. You can join with the propagandists of the PRC yet remain
untarnished and above it all. I think it is
incredible, I'm awe struck. Have you thought about holding classes so us
mere mortals can grasp all this hidden meaning in life?
Mick
Alan Bird wrote in message <35da0f2d...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
Steve
an argument abot the Dalai Lamma.
Would anyone care to give an uninformed person a synopsis of both sides of
the story?
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------
The Vipassana Page:
http://rdz.acor.org/lists/vipassana/
Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/4774/
----------------------------------------------------------
The current population of the Earth is 5.9 billion people.
If current birth and death rates continue, the Earth's
population will double in 40 years.
The Zero Population Growth Page:
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Jeff Ryan
Did you ever get a chance to check up on the evidence cited at the beginning of
this thread? I don't recall reading your comments about it. You did say you
would check up on its validity. What did you find? Best regards.
Lobsang
Sho...@nospam.com
>
> On 18 Aug 1998 13:38:31 PDT, Shu...@nospam.com wrote:
>
> >Francis Y.F.Poon wrote:
> >>
> >> Brian Tehan wrote:
> >> >
> >> > This is the kind of mindless crap
> >> --------------
> >> Rather than saying it is "mindless" as you have put it so ignorantly,
> >
> >Isn't it amazing the ignoratns are calling facts they don't want to
> >admit to as "mindless crap"?
> >
> >"PRC propaganda". If a Tibetan says something against Tibet
> >independence, then the Tibetan must be part of that "PRC propaganda".
> >All who say anything anti-TI must be PRC AGENTS. They are of the same
> >mentality that sent the Japanese Americans to camps during WWII.
> >Nevermind facts. Brian and Mick_G, why not send all the Chinese
> >overseas students and all the Chinse Americans and all the Chinese
> >diaspora who happen to have some facts against Tibet independence to
> >camps. After all, they are ALL spreading "PRC propaganda". Even
> >anti-TI Tibetans should go to camp!
> >
> >Oh yeah, Shuden believers, too. How dare they not follow HHDL? They
> >must be PRC agents! Off with them to camp!!!!
> >
> >Shogun
> >
>
> my hard-earned money to send PRC agents and Shugden believers to camp.
> Let their moms and dads pay for it!
>
> tg
Tg just demonstrated step two of the Dalai Lama camp tactics: When they
can't come up with an argument, step one is "It must be PRC
propaganda". Step two is some ridiculous comeback.
Sorry but the facts will never go away. The world is simply closing in
on you....
thubten
thubten
wrote:
>
>Mick_G wrote in message <6rc802$ct$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>>Why would someone want to do that?
>>
>>James Burns wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
>>>Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
>>>address:
>
>
>Well, they might wish to send their condolences. Shugden was recently slain
>for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by the
>Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
>scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
>
>Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back to
>minding our business.
>
>Namdrol
>
>
Hello Namdrol,
Is this a joke or is it really true? If true could you please tell me
if you know where I can find out more about this event?
tg
Brian Tehan
Shu...@nospam.com wrote:
> Francis Y.F.Poon wrote:
> >
> > Brian Tehan wrote:
> > >
> > > This is the kind of mindless crap
> > --------------
> > Rather than saying it is "mindless" as you have put it so ignorantly,
>
> Isn't it amazing the ignoratns are calling facts they don't want to
> admit to as "mindless crap"?
>
> These people would like to label anything they don't want to hear as
> "PRC propaganda". If a Tibetan says something against Tibet
> independence, then the Tibetan must be part of that "PRC propaganda".
> All who say anything anti-TI must be PRC AGENTS. They are of the same
> mentality that sent the Japanese Americans to camps during WWII.
> Nevermind facts. Brian and Mick_G, why not send all the Chinese
> overseas students and all the Chinse Americans and all the Chinese
> diaspora who happen to have some facts against Tibet independence to
> camps. After all, they are ALL spreading "PRC propaganda". Even
> anti-TI Tibetans should go to camp!
>
> Oh yeah, Shuden believers, too. How dare they not follow HHDL? They
> must be PRC agents! Off with them to camp!!!!
I think following Dorje Shugden must cause some brain damage :-). In fact, I don't believe
this is from a DS follower. It is another anti-Tibetan Chinese. The text below gives it
away. If you want to create discord among the supporters of Tibet, you must learn to be
more subtle. Just parroting the PRC propaganda is a dead give-away. Do you seriously
believe any of the rubbish this Brian Poon (is that a tibetan name? ;-)) has written.
<sarcasm on> Of course the Tibetans are better off with their culture destroyed, no
freedom of religion and a particularly nasty form of "development" put in it's place.Given
that the basic philosophy/religion of the Tibetans doesn't support the belief that being
rich brings happiness, the argument below is no applicable. If they're so much better off,
why can't the PRC let them vote on what THEY want.
I'm sure the Tibetans would have been able to "liberate" themselves from poverty over the
last 40 years, if they had the opportunity, without destroying the environment of Tibet in
the process. The Dalai Lama has said on many occasions that he recognised that changes
were needed in Tibet but he had no chance to implement any, given that he was still only
very young when the Chinese took over.
I'm sure someone can dig up a Tibetan who likes what the Chinese are doing but I can
probably find an American who would rather live under a government like the Chinese.
I think the USA would do well to "filter" their overseas students. After all, there are
plenty of Chinese students who support democracy and human rights.
Sho...@nospam.com
>
> I think following Dorje Shugden must cause some brain damage :-). In fact, I don't believe
> this is from a DS follower.
Never said I was a DS follower, but I do suffer from severe typo. :-)
Did you even notice I signed as "Shogun"? In fact, I'd like to
apologize to the DS followers. I would never use "Shugden" as my email
I.D.; it would be a disrespect to their deity. Meant to type "Shogun".
You can say I have "brain damage", but please don't carry that to the DS
followers.
> It is another anti-Tibetan Chinese. The text below gives it
> away. If you want to create discord among the supporters of Tibet, you must learn to be
> more subtle. Just parroting the PRC propaganda is a dead give-away.
No, I'm an anti-Tibetan American. A God-King mono-ethnic regime runs
against the American values of a democratic, multi-ethnic country. I'm
not anti-Tibetan, simply anti TI.
Sounds to me like you're parroting the TI propaganda: anything against
TI must be pro-PRC.
> Do you seriously
> believe any of the rubbish this Brian Poon (is that a tibetan name? ;-)) has written.
I would give it a reasonable consideration, before jumping off in
calling it PRC propaganda.
> <sarcasm on>
> Of course the Tibetans are better off with their culture destroyed, no
> freedom of religion and a particularly nasty form of "development" put in it's place. Given
> that the basic philosophy/religion of the Tibetans doesn't support the belief that being
> rich brings happiness, the argument below is no applicable. If they're so much better off,
> why can't the PRC let them vote on what THEY want.
If they did vote against TI, I have a feeling you would call it "PRC
manipulation". So far you people call any anti-TI Tibet people
"handpicked by the Chinese". So why bother? The future will show you
the truth. And on what grounds do you claim the Tibetan culture is
destroyed? Does it not flourish on its own in the West? If this
culture is so great that Westerners who have never even been to Tibet
are now devotees, how can the PRC destroy it? The local Tibetans can
certainly teach their children in private. The fear of the so-called
"culture genicide" is simply the elite monks' fear of losing their own
influence over the Tibetans. Now the Tibetans have a choice: they have
the wisdom and ability to make that choice. For people like you to
assume the Tibetans have no such power is a form of racial
discrimination. You are treating the Tibetans as dumb natives. You
have zero faith in Tibetan culture, or the local Tibetans.
Your assumption the Tibetans philosophy/religion means they don't want
economic progress sounds like a western myth. How can you speak for
them? If you're so sure that they feel better off poor, why don't you
go take a poll and show us the result?
> I'm sure the Tibetans would have been able to "liberate" themselves from poverty over the
> last 40 years, if they had the opportunity, without destroying the environment of Tibet in
> the process
How do you know the Tibetans are not a part of this "liberation"?
You're making up this pictuer like the local Tibetans are doing nothing,
but moaning under oppression, or "liberation", or whatever you call it.
Don't you believe the Tibetans are intelligent people?
>The Dalai Lama has said on many occasions that he recognised that changes
> were needed in Tibet but he had no chance to implement any, given that he was still only
> very young when the Chinese took over.
Excuses such as "he had no chance to implement any" shows how terrible
the conditions in Tibet used to be. That was when the elite class owned
serfs. On the other hand, now that the feudal class system is gone, the
Tibetans don't need the Dalai Lama to make changes. They are given
chances to help themselves. If you don't believe this, try reading
Melvyn Goldstein's book on Tashi Tsering's autobiography. Tsering
established 30 Tibetan schools in 6 years with the help of the Chinese
government. What the Tibetans probably need from the Dalai Lama is a
feeling of staying with the past. He can provide them with the good
part of the past: nostalgia, faith, the god-king they revered. In my
opinion, the Dalai Lama can be like the British royalty, providing his
people with a link to their past, despite current progress and changes.
He can manage to retain this position in Tibet if he acts in time to
negoitate with China. If he fails to catch a window of opportunity, he
will be out from Tibet forever, like the rest of the Chinese emperors
who never got to keep their thrones, once modernization took over.
Perhaps this is the "cultural genicide" he fears: his own permanent
ouster from power. That won't really happen with the Chinese reform;
that will only happen when the real Tibetans choose. And in the future,
the Tibetans WILL choose.
> I'm sure someone can dig up a Tibetan who likes what the Chinese are doing but I can
> probably find an American who would rather live under a government like the Chinese.
Unfortunately I've read about a lot of Tibetans who feel they don't want
to go back to the old system. F.P.'s example only added one card to my
file. You can deny all you want on the number of these Tibetans, but
the future will show the truth. No amount of denial will work in the
future.
> I think the USA would do well to "filter" their overseas students. After all, there are
> plenty of Chinese students who support democracy and human rights.
>
Bad suggestion. TI does NOT equate democracy and human rights. In
fact, a God-king regime opposes democracy and human rights. Of course,
maybe you mean the U.S. should only admit anti-TI students, then I'm
with you.
Shogun
Sho...@nospam.com
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:51:04 -0700, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I don't think this is all PRC propaganda, far from it, but it does server
> >the agenda of the PRC very well indeed.
> >
> >Mick
> >
Mick,
There are many different issues and different viewpoints on various
aspects of Tibet, its politics, its religion. It seems to me, though,
that you are taking anything against your agenda as serving PRC-agenda.
In my opinion, each issue should have its own distinct resolution, on
its own grounds.
> Mick, many things can serve the agenda of the RPC.
>
> If the situation was reversed abd HHDL was promoting reliance upon
> Dorje Shugdan you can be sure that the PRC would be condeming it
> within Tibet.
>
Alan, if the PRC bans Dorje Shugden, I for one will be protesting
against that ban. On the other hand, if the PRC allows the workship of
Dorje Shugden simply to spite the Dalai Lama, then I would protest that
special allowance. I feel religion should be free in Tibet, period.
Christianity, Islam, ETC. should all be allowed in Tibet, as they should
be anywhere in the world. If either PRC or HHDL is against Christianity
in Tibet, then I will protest against that. If Dorje Shugden lobbists
repel Christianity in Tibet, then I will protest against you.
> It proves nothing what the PRC does. they are illeggal occupents of a
> foreigh country.
I disagree with you here, Alan. But does that make me a PRC supporter?
No. It only states my view. To me, Tibet's drive for independence is a
power trip by some old elites who would like to call any anti-TI
Tibetans "Chinese propaganda". It goes against the concept of a
multi-ethnic country, which is the foundation of the US. The concept of
a God-King mono-ethnic kingdom goes against everything American.
I have a right to support your religious cause, which happens to agree
with mine. I will go as far as protesting for you to the ears of PRC,
should it ban Dorje Shugden, HHDL, Tibetan Buddhism, Christainity or
Isam, but I also have a right to be against TI, on the grounds of my
American principles.
Mike claims anti-TI facts "serve PRC agenda". In my view, the PRC
serves MY agenda. If the PRC decides to allow TI, I will protest
against the PRC!!!! If the PRC fails in keeping China a whole,
multiethnic country, then that's one score against the PRC, as far as
I'm concerned.
> Of course they will usae division. If HHDL had not
> banned the practice they would not be able to try and capitalise on
> the situation.
>
Yes, the PRC may try and capitalise on the situation, but you should
also not confuse other people's stand. Simply because they agree with
you on one ground, but not on the other ground, does not mean they must
be PRC people trying to capitalize on the situation. If you accuse all
anti-TI people's support for your cause as PRC attempt to capitalize on
the situation, then you're falling into the very trap of grouping
everyone under the label of "PRC supporters", which you yourself abhor.
> Take care
>
> Alan
>
Take care
Shogun
rob...@ammo.co.uk
Thats great news. We can all now expect a statement from the Dalai Lama
saying that the danger from Shugden has passed and shugden practitioners are
once again allowed to hold official positions, recieve passports, live in the
community, return to their monastries, have pictures of the deceased shugden
on their shrines, attend teachings and empowerments from HHDL - be his friend
again, work for the tibetan cause, oppose the chinese propaganda etc. Because
althought their practice is empty and meaningless at least it won't be
harmful!
Please let me know the moment he makes this statement.
with love
Robert
In article <35d9d...@news1.ibm.net>,
"Namdrol" <mfes...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> Mick_G wrote in message <6rc802$ct$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> >Why would someone want to do that?
> >
> >James Burns wrote in message ...
> >>
> >>Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
> >>Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
> >>address:
>
> Well, they might wish to send their condolences. Shugden was recently slain
> for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by the
> Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
> scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
>
> Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back to
> minding our business.
>
> Namdrol
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
rob...@ammo.co.uk
I agree, so therefore you should write to HHDL and ask him to reverse the ban
because clearly he has made a mistake. You know that sincere Buddhists would
definately say that the preservation of Dharma in this world is even more
important than the existence of an independent Tibet. So if you ban a
practice given to the majority of Tibets by the living embodiment of Heruka
and Atisha - namely Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche then you have to expect some
dissention. You wouldn't expect anything else when the most important Lama of
the largest tradition of Tibetan Buddhism is disregarded and the protector of
his teachings compared to an evil chineese spirit.
What do you think? This is not criticising in a negative way - only
explaining what happened and why the results are as we have seen. Can you
give another explanation? Also please note - I am not saying one practice is
better than another, not saying that HHDL can't choose what he practices or
even advise his followers to do. However as a spiritual guide I am saying he
does have a responsibility to give clear reasons for his advice - this he has
not done. EG How does DS harm his life? How does DS threaten Tibet? How could
Trijang Rinpoche be wrong and still be a highly realised master? How can HHDL
have realisations when for 40 years he was taking refuge in a worldly spirit
(his view) therefore breaking refuge vows - therefore not a buddhist. How can
a non buddhist gain Buddhist realisations? If on the other hand he was
enlightened from the start how could have made such a huge mistake, set such
a bad example for 40 years?
These are just a few questions raised by HHDL's view of DS - non of which
have ever been answered. For people who think Dharma's preservation is more
important than Tibet's preservation - these answers must be given or his
position reversed - this is just from a dharma point of view - not even
looking at political human rights views.
Best wishes
Robert Thomas
In article <6rcpi3$cv$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> I don't think this is all PRC propaganda, far from it, but it does server
> the agenda of the PRC very well indeed.
>
> Mick
>
> Shu...@nospam.com wrote in message <35D9E7...@nospam.com>...
> >Francis Y.F.Poon wrote:
> >>
> >> Brian Tehan wrote:
> >> >
> >> > This is the kind of mindless crap
> >> --------------
> >> Rather than saying it is "mindless" as you have put it so ignorantly,
> >
> >Isn't it amazing the ignoratns are calling facts they don't want to
> >admit to as "mindless crap"?
> >
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
rob...@ammo.co.uk
Just to clarify the subject of Tibetan exile govt. not approving travel
outside india for DS Monks and Nuns. I spoke to a friend of mine who travels
regularly to Dharmasala and has a lot to do with the Monastries etc. He said,
its a crazy thing, because as you say - the Tibetans can simply by pass the
exile govt. and apply for an Indian passport. So why did they pass such a
resolution? Perhaps they have no idea of the implications of such a decree in
the context of Democracy and standard human rights. Just because they can't
enforce it - don't you think its highly worrying that they should have this
intention?
Best wishes
Robert
> >
> >"Yet, while many Tibetans would never
> >publicly challenge the Dalai Lama,
> >the worship of Dorje Shugdan remains
> >widespread, and there is nothing to
> >suggest that the controversy will
> >quickly subside"
> >Donald Lopez.
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Namdrol
thubten wrote in message <35da318d....@news.intergate.bc.ca>...
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:47:40 -0400, "Namdrol" <mfes...@ibm.net>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Mick_G wrote in message <6rc802$ct$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>>>Why would someone want to do that?
>>>
>>>James Burns wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>Anyone wishing to send a donation or letter of support to the Dorje
>>>>Shugden Society in India, please do so using the following contact
>>>>address:
>>
>>
>>Well, they might wish to send their condolences. Shugden was recently
slain
>>for good by a coterie of Vajrakilaya specialists in Tibet, assembled by
the
>>Vidyadhara Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, one of the greatest living Tibetan
>>scholar/masters [and one of my most important masters].
>>
>>Hence any threat to anyone by Shugden is finished and we can all go back
to
>>minding our business.
>>
>>Namdrol
>>
>>
>
>Is this a joke or is it really true? If true could you please tell me
>if you know where I can find out more about this event?
This what I heard from one Michael Lewis, Orgyan Thrinly Rinpoche's
translator.
kin...@my-dejanews.com
alan...@dial.pipex.com (Alan Bird) wrote:
> >We the Chinese people are firmly behind the Shudgen Dorje people
> >and other Tibetan compatriots who are under the persecution
> >by the Dalai Lama clique.
>
> Please get real. You choose to support the Dorje Shugdan issue because
> you believe it strengthens your own camp.
>
> If HHDL was promoting the practice of Dorje Shugdan you would be
> banning it within Tibet.
You get real too. If HHDL was supporting Tibet as part of China, you would
be cursing His Holiness worldwide
> Your support or lack of a support for an issue means little.
Little is better than nothing
>
> Take care
>
You too.
Randy J
Sho...@nospam.com wrote in article <35DA47...@nospam.com>...
> thubten wrote:
> >
> > On 18 Aug 1998 13:38:31 PDT, Shu...@nospam.com wrote:
> > >
> > >Oh yeah, Shuden believers, too. How dare they not follow HHDL? They
> > >must be PRC agents! Off with them to camp!!!!
> > >
> > >Shogun
> > >
> >
> > I don't know about anybody else but I sure as hell am not going to pay
> > my hard-earned money to send PRC agents and Shugden believers to camp.
> > Let their moms and dads pay for it!
> >
> > tg
>
> Tg just demonstrated step two of the Dalai Lama camp tactics: When they
> can't come up with an argument, step one is "It must be PRC
> propaganda". Step two is some ridiculous comeback.
it's not somne ridiculous comeback, it's some
very funny humor--too bad you can't appreciate it.
but you have to lighten up and not take your position
or views or self so seriously in order to do that.
humor--it would be hard to be happy without it
rj
>
Tyree Hilkert
>This what I heard from one Michael Lewis, Orgyan Thrinly Rinpoche's
>translator.
I don't understand how one can kill an imaginary being, but I'll just let
that go.
How were the teachings? What did you think? Aren't they a terrific
teaching team?
Alan Bird
wrote:
>Alan:
>Quit being so humble it doesn't become you. You have this incredible
>knowledge that is so much more advanced than even HHDL. You seem to have a
>good grasp of why he imposed the ban and the real secret agenda.
No incrediable knowledge. Mick, Why not address the issue rather than
revert to name-calling? Have you contacted Tibetan House yet and asked
them what papers are needed for a Tibetan in India to travel aboard?
If you have then you will know that they do need authorisation papers
from the necessary Tibetan institutions within the exile communities.
You claimed I was misleading people in stateing that.
Was I?
There was a ban imposed on the 30th March 1996. One needs no special
knowledge to learn about this. One needs no special knowledge to know
that HHDL and his government keep referring to Tibetans who rely upon
Dorje Shugdan as enemies of Tibet, traitors, etc.,
One needs no special knowledge to know that the propsed constitution
for a free Tibet as been changed to discriminate against Dorje Shugdan
practitioners. etc.,
> You seem to be able to interpret hidden meanings in statements
>made by his monks.
Mick what statements made by his monks, I know of none. If you know of
some then please contribute them.
>You
>seem to read articles that only mention the controversy and say nothing
>about the right or wrong of it, yet you again can divine the underlying
>motives.
Mick, I have read a nunmber of articles about the issue, Tricycle,
Sunday Times, News International etc., I have seen news reports made
for German, Swiss and British TV. I have investigated these reports. I
seek copies of statements from organisations that have commented on
the issue and I have written to some of the journalists who have
reported on the issue.
How you 'seem' to know what I have read and what is contained in the
documents and papers etc I have read I do not know? Surely you do not
have claravoyent powers?
> You can join with the propagandists of the PRC yet remain
>untarnished and above it all. I think it is
>incredible, I'm awe struck.
Thank you. Obviously this statement from you is not emotive and is not
value ladened with negative judgements.
It is nice to know you are so objective about the issue.
According to you anyone who criticise HHDL joins the propergandists of
the PRC
This is illogical. HHDL elder brother has criticised HHDL, his he a
propergandist for the PRC?
>Have you thought about holding classes so us
>mere mortals can grasp all this hidden meaning in life?
Mick, I am merely pointing out facts, which can be and have been
substantiated. I can provide you with the names of politicians and
Tibetan organisations who have made threats of violence against Dorje
Shugdan practitioners. I can provide you with details of news reports
of people drivin from their homes. Monks who have been attacked, the
decreeof the list of ten 'enemies of Tibet' and so on and so forth.
The latest outrage is the removal of the necessary papers which make
it possible for Dorje Shugdan practitioners within the exiled
communities within India to travel aboard.
This hardly is the stuff of the meaning of life.
Life has very little meaning apart from what we create by our dharma
practice. Your own Lama will be the best person for you to consult on
that and certainly not a fool like me.
Take care
Alan
>Mick
>
>Alan Bird wrote in message <35da0f2d...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:12:50 -0700, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Lovely to see that Alan is so enlightened! We all have so much to learn
>from
>>>him.
>>>
>>>Mick
>>Just a bit of fun Mick.
>>
>>I doubt you have much to learn from me,
>>and I am sadly not enlightened, however, for all I know you could well
>>be.
>>
>>I can examinbe my own mind and know I am an ordinary sentient being. I
>>cannot examine yours, anf for all I know you may well be a Buddha.
>>
>>either way, Buddha or sentient being, only though your great kindness
>>can I hope to become enlightened in the future.
>>
>>Take care
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>Take care
>>
>>Alan
>>>
>>>Alan Bird wrote in message <35d9e974...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>>>>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:58:06 GMT, wo...@tiw.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>This must be the sharp wisdom that Mick -G keeps going on about.
>>>>
>>>>Take care
>>>>
>>>>Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Alan Bird
>Dear Mick,
>
>Just to clarify the subject of Tibetan exile govt. not approving travel
>outside india for DS Monks and Nuns. I spoke to a friend of mine who travels
>regularly to Dharmasala and has a lot to do with the Monastries etc. He said,
>its a crazy thing, because as you say - the Tibetans can simply by pass the
>exile govt. and apply for an Indian passport. So why did they pass such a
>resolution? Perhaps they have no idea of the implications of such a decree in
>the context of Democracy and standard human rights. Just because they can't
>enforce it - don't you think its highly worrying that they should have this
>intention?
>
>Best wishes
>
>Robert
>
Hi Robert,
Do they have to apply for Indian citizenship to receive a
passport, if not what papers do they travel on?
Avyorth
>You wonder when this story will hit 'BIG'. If the present
>circumstances continue then it will do so, sadly it is only a matter
>of time
I'm interested in why no one has mentioned the Blue Book of allegations of
the DL's human rights abuses. Are non-nKt posters aware that Jim Belither
(apparently) produced a book listing alleged human rights abuses instigated
by the DL. This book is part of a media pack produced by the Dhogyal
supporters club (read 'nKt') and has been mailed widely to newspapers, tv
companies, magazines, etc.
Interesting that Mr Belither is also the nKt representative on the Network
of Buddhist Organisations - I wonder how those who have the DL as their Guru
feel sitting at the table with someone who is spreading outright lies about
their Spiritual Guide?
I suspect that this is where Alan and gang gets their 'facts' from. It's the
sort of thing that Herr Goebbels would be proud of.
Yours in the Dh (ark)
Avyorth
Shu...@nospam.com wrote in message <35D9EA...@nospam.com>...
>Get it through your thick head:
Get your act together, Lobsang!
Avyorth
rob...@ammo.co.uk wrote in message <6re995$k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Dear Namdrol,
>
>Thats great news. We can all now expect a statement .........
Don't be so naive, Robert! Why do you think that National Socialism is still
outlawed in Germany 50 years after the death of a certain Adolf Hitler?
Sho...@nospam.com
That was certainly humor, at the expense of the so-called "PRC agents"
and "Shugden believers". I'd been told I have a great sense of humor,
and I tend to do humor at my own expenses. Humor done on others'
expenses is really "ridicule". <shrug> It's like some kid making a
racist joke and giggle. I've seen examples of this a lot in this forum,
mostly aimed at the Shugden believers, which only make bystanders like
me frown and have more sympathy for the Shugden believers.
Mick_G
So far no reply from Tibetan House, but I think I wouldn't expect one very
quickly. I'm sure they get many many requests for information. I still as
I've said before I do not believe that the Tibetan Government in Exile can
have anything what so ever to do with what a resident of India can do about
traveling, it strains credulity. The assumption that a person can go through
Immigration at JFK in New York City and expect to hand the officer a couple
of papers from the Tibetan Government in Exile that says they can travel to
the US is absurd. Like I said before, I don't know how to prove it. I've had
much the same trouble with the PRC propaganda, you can't prove that
something never happened, this is their favorite technique. I mean Jeff if
at this moment I accused you of beating your wife, how would you prove
different if you had never beat your wife??? Can't be done. But see the
reverse is the reality. Publishing a supposed memo / proclamation from the
TGE is easy. But I'll say there is no substantiating reference on it. No
place I can go and find out for myself.... This is why in the final analysis
I find this issue nothing more that the dreaming of western Buddhist with
too much time on their hands.
Mick
Jeff Ryan wrote in message <35DA36EA...@kiva.net>...
>Hi Mick:
>
>Did you ever get a chance to check up on the evidence cited at the
beginning of
>this thread? I don't recall reading your comments about it. You did say
you
>would check up on its validity. What did you find? Best regards.
>
>Lobsang
>
>Mick_G wrote:
>
>> Alan:
>> Quit being so humble it doesn't become you. You have this incredible
>> knowledge that is so much more advanced than even HHDL. You seem to have
a
>> good grasp of why he imposed the ban and the real secret agenda. You seem
to
>> be able to interpret hidden meanings in statements made by his monks. You
>> seem to read articles that only mention the controversy and say nothing
>> about the right or wrong of it, yet you again can divine the underlying
>> motives. You can join with the propagandists of the PRC yet remain
>> untarnished and above it all. I think it is
>> incredible, I'm awe struck. Have you thought about holding classes so us
>> mere mortals can grasp all this hidden meaning in life?
>>
>> Mick
>>
>> Alan Bird wrote in message <35da0f2d...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>> >On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:12:50 -0700, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>Lovely to see that Alan is so enlightened! We all have so much to learn
>> from
>> >>him.
>> >>
>> >>Mick
>> >Just a bit of fun Mick.
>> >
>> >I doubt you have much to learn from me,
>> >and I am sadly not enlightened, however, for all I know you could well
>> >be.
>> >
>> >I can examinbe my own mind and know I am an ordinary sentient being. I
>> >cannot examine yours, anf for all I know you may well be a Buddha.
>> >
>> >either way, Buddha or sentient being, only though your great kindness
>> >can I hope to become enlightened in the future.
>> >
>> >Take care
>> >
>> >Alan
>> >
>> >Take care
>> >
>> >Alan
>> >>
>> >>Alan Bird wrote in message <35d9e974...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>> >>>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:58:06 GMT, wo...@tiw.com wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>>This must be the sharp wisdom that Mick -G keeps going on about.
>> >>>
Mick_G
Mick_G
The Puddies
Sho...@nospam.com wrote in message <35DB21...@nospam.com>...
>
>That was certainly humor, at the expense of the so-called "PRC agents"
>and "Shugden believers". I'd been told I have a great sense of humor,
>and I tend to do humor at my own expenses. Humor done on others'
>expenses is really "ridicule". <shrug> It's like some kid making a
>racist joke and giggle. I've seen examples of this a lot in this forum,
>mostly aimed at the Shugden believers, which only make bystanders like
>me frown and have more sympathy for the Shugden believers.
Hi Shogun,
Stick around a while and I promise you that you will soon get a bellyful of
them like the rest of us. One by one, I think each of the 26 or so names
on the list of the "welcome to arbt" letter has engaged them in some form of
discussion, some with more kindness than others. Invariably it has
deteriorated from respectful discussion to frustration and sometimes much
worse. (note Avyorth's posts)
They see it as free publicity to post here, not at all as a means of
discussing dharma.
It will become evident soon to you if you lurk enough.
Regards,
Evelyn
Namdrol
>saying that the danger from Shugden has passed and shugden practitioners
are
>once again allowed to hold official positions, recieve passports, live in
the
>community, return to their monastries, have pictures of the deceased
shugden
>on their shrines, attend teachings and empowerments from HHDL - be his
friend
>again, work for the tibetan cause, oppose the chinese propaganda etc.
Because
>althought their practice is empty and meaningless at least it won't be
>harmful!
I doubt it. The practice is still deluded, regardless. "Empty" [i.e. void of
virtue] and meaningless practices are the most harmful of all.
N
wo...@tiw.com
Shu...@nospam.com wrote:
> Get it through your thick head: The Shugden lobbists are not sympathetic
> to PRC. They are just here to state their opinion and facts.
I respect the bona fides of the Shugden lobbyists in holding political
positions unrelated to those of the PRC or the Communist Party of the PRC.
Nevertheless, I fear that the many political assaults of the Shugden
lobbyists against HHDL may be playing into the hands of the PRC, whatever
other relationships there might or might not be between the Shudgen lobbyists
and the Communist Party of the PRC.
I admire the integrity of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in stating clearly and
openly his opinion in the matter of Dorje Shugden propitiation; I am grateful
to him for having fearlessly stated his views on the matter, as I regard his
opinion to be an appropriate guide in this matter for me.
I do not accept the validity of the many charges of human rights abuse hurled
against HHDL by the shugdenist lobby.
I support the freedom of religion of the Shugden group to engage in their
practice without any hostile interference from the outside, even as I also
accept the religious views of HHDL set forth on this subject, which views are
at variance from those held by the Shugden worshippers.
I fully support the religious freedom of His Holiness to condemn Shugden
worship as a matter of religious conscience. In my view, this is a
manifestation of His Holiness' religious and human rights, rather than a
violation of them. The Shugden worshippers living in India should also
exercise their rights of religious freedom, as guaranteed under the Indian
Constitution, as has His Holiness.
>
> Many anti-Tibet-independence people are not sympathetic toward PRC.
> They, too, are just here to state their opinion and facts.
>
> Your mentality of equating everything you perceive as anti-HHDL as PRC
> lover is ridiculous! It's a paranoia beyond belief! Who gave you these
> ideas? The DL propaganda machine?
>
> wo...@tiw.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <PaGSUSAO...@metanode.demon.co.uk>,
> > James Burns <jimb...@METANODE.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
> > >
> > > DALAI LAMA'S INCREASING ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.
> > > ===========================================================
> > >
> > > The letter below shows the latest Human Rights Abuses of the Dalai Lama
> > > and His administration.
> >
> > It is absurd to claim that HH the Dalai Lama is abusing human rights in
India,
> > which is a free country.
> >
> > If the Shugden lobby really believes that HH is abusing human rights, then
why
> > don't they move to China and surrender to the PRC? Or do they feel that
they
> > can do more for the cause of the Communist Party of the PRC by remaining in
> > India and attacking His Holiness the Dalai Lama?