Atheism
David / Amicus
that Nichiren invoked and was aided by different deities.
How should that be understood?
Kurt
Metaphorical deities.
--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"
robek
That is up to each person. My take:
At this point, I am trying to just report objectively and let the
readers decide how to spin it. I will say I think the life and legends
are dramatizations of real events, with elements of myth and even
fantasy.
Robin Beck
Mettawaves from Robin's Nest
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/
robek
Myth, Legend, & Fantasy.
I have been reading and trying to retell the various legends
associated with Nichiren. At this point, I am trying to just report
objectively and let the readers decide how to spin them. I will say I
think the legends and stories are dramatizations of real events, with
elements of myth and even fantasy.
Thanks to Kuniyoshi, many have heard about "Nichiren Calming the Sea."
>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/robbeck/Sado/storm4.jpg<
Several on line sources place this happening on the way to Sado.
However, it appears that the Gosho only mentions a storm on the return
trip, after the pardon. Also, local legends at Kashiwazaki are
consistent with the latter.
"I left [my place of residence on] Sado on the thirteenth day of that
month and reached a harbor called Maura, where I spent the night of
the fourteenth. I should have arrived at the harbor of Teradomari in
Echigo Province on the fifteenth, but a gale prevented my boat from
making port. Fortunately, however, after two days at sea, we reached
Kashiwazaki, and on the following day I arrived at the provincial seat
of Echigo." -- Nichiren
After leaving Sado for Teradomari, Nichiren's boat was blown off
course by a storm, and made landfall at Kashiwazaki instead.
Nichiren at Kashiwazaki, & the Demon Storm
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000694.html#more
The best part is after he landed there. Nichiren and the others were
beset by barbaric inhabitants; as well as demonic mythical beings,
known as Yasha {Trolls} and Rasetsu {Shape-shifters}. Apparently,
Nichiren's saintly demeanor gave them pause. Some of them fled in
terror; others recognized him as a wise, compassionate Shonin and
humbly asked him for assistance.
Through his insightful daimoku chanting and profound prayers, Nichiren
was able to determine that the ghastly, evil dragon resided in a deep,
dark, creepy and mysterious cavern; located where the Tsunoda
Mountains rise from Tsunoda Beach, not far from the shore.
The inhabitants built Nichiren a 'daimoku-do' {prayer hut}, where he
is said to have engraved the 'Kishi-no-daimoku' on a shell shaped
rock. The rock serves as record of the event. Nichiren later entered
the cave and subdued the seven headed dragon, by invoking the power of
the benevolent Yasha Kishimo {Hariti] and her Ten {10}Rasetsunyo
daughters. The evil dragon then repented, and agreed to serve as the
Daimyojin {guardian deity} for the village.
There is a Nichiren Shu Temple, Kakuda-san Myoko-ji, located in the
Tsunoda Mountains, with a view of Tsunoda Beach. The Banjindo, a
related Hokke-Shinto Shrine, is apparently located at or near the
Temple. The Sanju-banshin are a group of 30 benevolent deities
{kami/jin}, also known as Shoten Zenjin, who are said to protect
votaries of the Lotus Sutra
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/robbeck/Sado/smc.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/robbeck/Sado/ksmdmk.jpg
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000694.html
robek
local inhabitants; under the direction of an evil Shichimen {Sitimen,
hitimen, or a seven headed dragon}.
Donkeylung
forces of nature that cannot be described by naturalistic means. They
cannot be measured or calibrated or anything like that. They are
certainly not metaphorical in the sense that there is a physical trace
or they offer protection to believers of true buddism.
What they are not is conscious in the sense that there is an agency.
There is no "thinking" behind the shoten zenjin. They are just
forces. True Buddhism accepts that there are no creator(s) behind the
universe. Phenomena just is. The only thing that is constant is the
true law of Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how
you do proper daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather
represent that.)
In terms of language, atheism and non-theism have different
connotations. Atheism mean a belief that the physical is all that is.
Non-theism is preferred.
Have a happy Oeshiki everybody!
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org
David / Amicus
Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how you do proper
daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather represent that.)>>
THANKS!!! I was wondering too whether the first word NAM(U) / NAN(U)
was pronounced with one syllable or two. One syllable makes the chant /
phrase flow more easily! I now see it's one syllable.
Donkeylung
the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben
chapter recitation a juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
recitation.
The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the
primary practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in
India) at the center, which is incorrect. On the other hand,
naN-myoho-renge-kyo is the true law, representing both the essential
nature of all things and the oneness between the person and the law.
(it is more complex then this, of course, but that will have to do for
now.) Because nichiren was the first to be enlightened to the true
law, he is considered the true buddha.
The hiki-daimoku or prolonged daimoku is a replacement of the practice
of chanting at different places at the head temple. The priests would
chant at one location (hoben, juryo), chant daimoku and then move on to
another location. It is only used in this instance.
Finally, when you chant daimoku it is very important to chant it
correctly. You never want to chant it so fast that the pronunciation
is wrong, even if it feels better. You don't chant to get it over
with. It is better to chant on the slower side, but the individual has
to feel it out.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Oct 4, 2006, 3:55pm (CDT-2)
From: Ami...@webtv.net (David / Amicus)
I had thought that Buddhism was a non theistic religion. I read though
that Nichiren invoked and was aided by different deities.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: Well, so sorry that you "thought" Wrong! LOL.
However, The first thing that "should be understood" is that Nobody can
tell you just "how" [that] should be understood", because Nobody can
fathom or read the un-fathomable mind of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha to really understand what was His intent or what He was thinking
about in those particular situations when He "invoked" the names of
"different deities" that He was "aided by" at those particular times.
AFAIK - as far as I know, from reading what He said out loud of those
occasions, He actually was admonishing or reprimanding those Buddhist
deities/ gods to do their "jobs" or whatever He thought that they should
have been doing to aid/ protect Him in the first place!
Secondly, it "should be understood" that the concepts of "atheism"
versus "monotheism" originate in Occidental/ Western culture & religion
and DNA - Do NOT Apply to the correct understanding of Oriental/ Eastern
culture & religion. The difference here is that Buddhism, as it was
taught by Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, does NOT answer or concern itself with
the question of whether there is only one supreme being/ god or NOT, and
so it has always embraced the concept of polytheism (many gods) without
rejection of the possibility of monotheism (one god).
So, instead of the question, "how should this be understood" which is
really UNanswerable, the question can asked, "how COULD this be
understood" which old Stoney (me) can easily answer, of course! : - )
The fact of the matter is that after the introduction of Buddhism into
Japan, long before the Daishonin's/ True Buddha's advent, "the law of
the land" mandated that the Shinto deities/ native gods of the country
and the Buddhist deities/ native gods of the countries where Buddhism
had been imported from were to be regarded & respected as equal beings/
deities/ gods. And, Nichiren Daishonin was educated & trained as a
Buddhist priest to believe in and identify the functions of life or
nature that all of those deities/ gods were connected to according to
old Japanese beliefs. So, He invoked or used the names of "different
deities" that served the function(s) or purpose(s) in life that He
needed in order to summon them to the task(s) at hand at the time(s)
that He called/ invoked their name(s).
That's very simple. For example, if one needed carpentry work done, you
would call/ invoke a carpenter for that purpose, NOT an electrician; or,
if one had an electrical problem, you would call/ invoke an electrician
for that reason, NOT a plumber. That is really No-thing [Zen] but
acting Upon human instinct, logic and common sense which AIN'T so common
on Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!"! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
robek
Donkeylung wrote:
> According to my priest, the shoten zenjin or Buddhist gods are those
> forces of nature that cannot be described by naturalistic means. They
> cannot be measured or calibrated or anything like that. They are
> certainly not metaphorical in the sense that there is a physical trace
> or they offer protection to believers of true buddism.
>
> What they are not is conscious in the sense that there is an agency.
> There is no "thinking" behind the shoten zenjin. They are just
> forces. True Buddhism accepts that there are no creator(s) behind the
> universe. Phenomena just is. The only thing that is constant is the
> true law of Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how
> you do proper daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather
> represent that.)
Where did the Mu character go?
r
robek
There are 7 syllables.
Nam' is an elision of Nan and Mu.
Nam' or Namu?
Generally this is a topic that often causes people to become
contentious or dismissive. Either way, the point is missed. It is a
relevant issue that is worth examining and re-examining.
here are really cadence/beat and phonetics issues here. The phonetics
issues are the 'voicing' and 'aspiration' {or lack thereof} of the 'u'
in Namu. This can be Na-mu {2 beats}, Namu {1 beat}, or Nam'. So there
is the six {6} beat Dai-moku, a six {6} beat Dai-mok', and a seven {7}
beat prolonged "Dai-mo-ku" {sic}.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aspiration: In English, as in many languages, some letters represent
two different sounds, one aspirated, and the other unaspirated.
Aspiration is a "breath" that follows the initial part of a sound.
Compare the sounds associated with the English letter t for example.
Hold the back of your hand close to your mouth and say "Top." Now say
"Stop." Can you feel the burst of air that follows the t in "Top" but
not in "Stop"? The same difference exists between the p in "Peak" and
the one in "Speak." That burst of air after the t in "Top" and the p in
"Peak" is called "aspiration."
And the Japanese have an "unaspirated vowel" of sorts, which can be
voiced or unvoiced. It is common for the Japanese to sort of "swallow"
vowels in certain locations in a word or a sentence. Sets' instead of
setsu {one beat} is not really a contraction. Either way, the 'u' is
unaspirated; but it can be voiced or not. Same with Dai-moku. The
'moku' is one beat, and the 'u' is unaspirated. Some will say it
Dai-mok', but it is never correctly read as 'Dai-mo-ku'.
Now Na-mu is usually two beats, and the "u" is aspirated. That is how
the "hiki" daimoku is chanted, with 7 beats. For a 6 beat mantra, as
often used in shodai, we treat Namu as if it is drawn with one kanji.
The 'u' becomes unaspirated. It may be voiced as in Namu {one beat}, or
unvoiced as in Nam'.
Domo-ari-ga-to
Dom'-ari-ga-to
Dom'-ari-ga_t
There are several places in Gon-gyo {sutra reciting} where two
syllables get one beat. Usually, the two syllables that get one beat
are drawn with one kanji. For example, Hon Matsu Ku Kyo To. Matsu is
drawn with one kanji and gets one beat. The "u" in matsu is
unaspirated. Some Japanese voice the u, as in matsu {one beat]. Others
unvoice it as mats'. It can also be contracted as "Hon Ma_ku_kyo to."
But the u in matsu is never aspirated, that would make it two beats
{ma-tsu}. We never read it as Ma-tsu.
Sometimes, for the sake of cadence, two syllables drawn with one kanji
get just one beat. The example that I recall is that Sha Ka Mu Ni is
drawn with 4 kanji, but read with only 2 beats -- Shaka-Muni. This also
occurs with the two {2} kanji for Nan & Mu, when they become the elided
Nam' or a one beat Namu, to create a six {6} beat mantra for shodai.
[and I shall expand on this point]
Here are two sound files of the six {6} beat Odaimoku with the "u"
voiced but 'unaspirated'; the mantra is Namu-myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo:
1. Shodai: Odaimoku with moku-sho (wood drum) to keep rhythm, from a
Nichiren Shu Temple, in mp3 format: 5hodai.mp3 245KB .mp3 {corrected
link 1-19-06 10:10 PM}
http://h1.ripway.com/robek/niti/5hodai.mp3
2. From Sado Konponji, the site of the Tsukuhara Samadhi Hut, this is
an ITunes 41 KB MPEG-4 Audio File: namu2.m4a 41 KB MPEG-4
http://h1.ripway.com/robek/niti/namu2.m4a
Here is one with the seven {7} beat 'hiki' Odaimoku, the "u" is both
voiced and aspirated; the mantra is Na-mu-myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo:
http://h1.ripway.com/robek/niti/hikisancho.mp3
*Slow prolonged Odaimoku in mp3 format from the 750 year ceremony held
at Seichoji aka Kiyosumi-dera Temple. hikisancho.mp3 151 KB .mp3
Here is a Nichiren Shoshu Shoshinkai six {6} beat Daimok' sound file
with the unvoiced and unaspirated "u". I understand that Taisekiji and
Kitayama both usually chant shodai this way. [Except that I know
Taisekiji uses the 7 beat "hiki" or prolonged Daimoku before silent
prayers during Gongyo.] The mantra here is Nam_myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo:
nst.mp3 131KB
http://h1.ripway.com/robek/niti/nst.mp3
If possible, save them to your computer for future use. You may also
access these and more in the files at nichirenpix
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nichirenpix/
Nichiren often refers to the 5 or 7 characterss of daimoku. This is
about the way Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo and Na Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo are written
in Kanji. I do not think we can infer pronunciation from that. It does
appear that multiple lineages use the six {6} beat Mantra for Shodai.
In this case, the "u" is never aspirated, but can be voiced or
unvoiced. It also appears that multiple lineages use the seven {7} beat
'hiki' Odaimoku on occasion. In this case, the "u" is aspirated and
voiced. I think it is reasonable to assume that these traditions go
back to Nichiren.
And then there is the 19 beat Honmon Shoshu invocation that takes 53
seconds for one Daimoku: Na = 4 beats; Mu = 3 beats; deep breath = 1
beat; Myo = 3 beats; Ho = 1 beat; Ren = 3 beats; Ge = 1 beat; Kyo = 3
beats.
Here is a real player sound file. This, I think, is chanted by
Nichiryu, the Chief Priest at Fujisan Kuon Jyozai-in (Taihei Kyodan)
Honmonji. It is said that Nichiryu is descended from Nitta {Niida}
Nichimoku. The sound reminds me of traditional Tendai Shomyo: hnd1.ram
40 Bytes
http://h1.ripway.com/robek/niti/hnd1.ram
robek
Donkeylung wrote:
> It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the daimoku. However, there is
> the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
> recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben
> chapter recitation a juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
> recitation.
>
> The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the
> primary practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in
> India) at the center, which is incorrect. On the other hand,
> naN-myoho-renge-kyo is the true law, representing both the essential
> nature of all things and the oneness between the person and the law.
> (it is more complex then this, of course, but that will have to do for
> now.) Because nichiren was the first to be enlightened to the true
> law, he is considered the true buddha.
This is Taisekiji revisionist nonsense at its worst.
The syllable nan means 'north" alone. With the mu, it is a
transliteration of Namah.
As many of you know, Daimoku means "The Title" and Odaimoku translates
as "The Sacred Title". This mantra consists of seven {7} Chinese
Characters. These are pronounced:
"Na Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo"
This pronunciation dates to at least as early as 9th Century China,
though we usually chant it with a modern Japanese accent. Note that
"myo" & "kyo" are each one {1} syllable, not two. They rhyme wth 'yo'.
not ky-oh. Myoho Renge Kyo is the Sino-Japanese Title of the Lotus
Sutra. This translates as:
"Wondrous {Myo} Dharma {Ho} Lotus {Ren} Flower {Ge} Sutra {Kyo}"
This is formed into the sacred mantra by adding two Chinese Characters
pronounced "Namu." "Nan" & "Mu", do not mean anything, in this context.
They simply represent the sound of a Sanskrit word: Namah {Namas,
Namo}. Namah was used, in ancient India, in pretty, much the same way
as the Latin "Ave" was used, in ancient Rome. So it basically means
"Hail!"
The Daimoku Mantra first appears in recorded history as one of many
devotional mantras found in a 7th Century Confessional Liturgy, of the
Chinese Tiantai-Lotus Sutra School, if not earlier. Nichiren, a 13th
Century Japanese Buddhist Sage/Saint, was the first to teach it as a
popular mantra. It was apparently brought to Japan by Saicho (767-822),
aka Dengyo Daishi:
"The 'threefold contemplation in a single mind as encompassed in the
Dharma container' is precisely Myoho-renge-kyo.... At the time of
death, one should chant Namu-myoho-renge-kyo. Through the workings of
the three powers of the Wondrous Dharma [subsequently explained in
considerable detail as the powers of the Dharma, the Buddha, and
faith], one shall at once attain enlightened wisdom and will not
receive a body bound by birth and death." -- Shuzenji-ketsu {Decisions
of Hsiu-cha'n-ssu} The Shuzenji-ketsu is a record of transmissions
received by Saicho during his journey to China.
"But when they appeared in the world [as Nan-yueh and T ien-t ai,
respectively], they knew it was not the right time to spread the Mystic
Law. Therefore, for the words "Myo-ho" they substituted the term
"calming and insight [Shikan/Samatha-Vipassana]," and instead engaged
in the practice of ichinen sanzen and the threefold contemplation in a
single mind. But even these great teachers recited Namu-myoho-renge-kyo
as their private practice, and in their hearts they understood these
words to be the truth. ...
Thus the Great Teacher Nan-yueh in his Hokke sempo employs the words
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. The Great Teacher T ien-t ai employs the words
Namu-byodo-daie-ichijo-myoho-renge-kyo, Keishu-myoho-renge-kyo, and
Kimyo-myoho-renge-kyo. And the document concerning the vow taken by the
Great Teacher Dengyo on his deathbed carries the words Namu-myoho-
renge-kyo." -- Nichiren
The practice of Chanting Daimoku {shodai}, while contemplating a Lotus
Sutra Mandala, is called Kanjin. Kan = Vipassana = Insight; Jin {shin}
= citta = mind-heart. It is based on Tiantai Shikan. Kanjin might even
be described as a devotional or faith-based Insight/Wisdom Cultivation.
The mantra is usually chanted with 6 beats, and Namu is sometimes
elided as Nam' {a regional Japanese thing}. In modern Mandarin Chinese,
it is read Namo Miao-fa Lien-hwa Jing. It may also be chanted with 7
beats.
The primary Nichiren Mandala is a calligraphy arrangement depicting the
Ceremony in the Air as described in the Lotus Sutra. There are several
others used in temples, including statues of Shakyamuni Buddha, &
arrangements of specific statues and/or calligraphy.
robek
Donkeylung wrote:
>
> Have a happy Oeshiki everybody!
>
> http://www.udumbarafoundation.org
"It is believed that there are only 128 extant Gohonzons inscribed by
Nichiren Daishonin. Yet, there could be more since Daishonin conferred
a Gohonzon to each of the five elder priests (goroso) who were
disciples of Nichiren Daishonin while he was alive, but who abandoned
the orthodox teaching after His death, each going his separate way and
establishing his own sect of Nichiren Buddhism. So the whereabouts of
their Gohonzons is unknown."
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org/ThePractice/Gohonzon.html
So the whereabouts of their Gohonzons is unknown?
Nissho's Daimandara of 1280
It is kept at Myohokkeji Temple Tamazawa, Mishima City, Izu, Shizuoka.
Myohokkeji was originally Nissho's Hokkeji Temple at Hama, Kamakura.
Nissho took up residence at Hama after Tatsunokuchi. Hokkeji was
officially founded by Nissho in 1284 and transfered to a Nichiyu in
1317. The Temple was moved to Izu and renamed Myohokkeji by
Oman-no-kata in 1621.
Three other authentic Nichiren Mandala Gohonzon(s) are listed as housed
there. These are:
Mandala #37 dated April 1276 {}, also conferred upon Nissho. The
Nichiren Prayer
Gohonzon aka Medicine Mandala (Kenji 2), Given out by the Independent
Movement.
Mandala #62 dated April 8, 1279 (Koan 2). Mandala inscribed by
Nichiren, formal style.
*Mandala #78. Mandala inscribed by Nichiren, abbreviated style.
See Also: Myohokkeji Nichiren Portrait 14th Century
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000844.html
robek
The Mandarin Duck Mandala Gohonzon, 056 in the Gohonzon Shu, is one of
at least nine {09}kept at Honkoku-ji in Kyoto. It is so named,
"Mandarin Duck" for the pattern on the mounting.
As one can see, it is an "abbreviated" Great Mandala. That means that
not all of the Ten Worlds are represented. Also, the lower right side
"Great Mandala Dedication" appears to be the same as on roughly 3/4 of
the extant Mandala Gohonzons. On the majority of the extant Great
Mandalas inscribed by Nichiren, there are two side entries on the
bottom. The entry on the lower right side {facing} is usually a general
dedication of sorts. This appears to be the same on most of them,, and
states that this "Dai Mandara" had never before appeared in
"Ichienbudai".
The Lower Lower Left Side Memoranda {facing} is what I call, for lack
of better terminology, the specific dedication; or memoranda,
{memorandum?}. This entry usually tells the date {when} and, sometimes,
the location {where} it was inscribed. It may also tell who received
it, and why. The lower left side {facing} memorandum on this one, if I
read correctly, indicates that it was conferred upon Nichiro on October
19 1278.
There appear to be at least nine {9} Nichiren Mandalas kept at
Kyoto-Honkoku-ji:
Mandala # 034 dated April 1276 (Kenji 2). This is one of the early,
pre-1278, Ten Worlds Great Mandalas, with 4 columns of characters,
flanking the Daimoku on each side, instead of three. The extra two
represent the Emanation Buddhas and Virtue Buddhas of the Ten
Directions. Zentoku Nyorai {the Virtue Buddha of the Eastern direction}
is on the right side {facing}, between Jogyo and Taho; while Jippo
Bunshin {Emanation Buddhas}is on on the left, between Jyogyo and
Shakyamuni.
Mandala # 041 dated February 1277 (Kenji 3). Early Gohonzon inscribed
by Nichiren, formal style
Mandala # 046 dated November 1277 (Kenji 3). Early Gohonzon inscribed
by Nichiren, formal style, damaged by Time.
Mandala # 051 dated July 5, 1278 (Koan 1). Gohonzon inscribed by
Nichiren, formal style. This is one of the earliest "middle" style Ten
Worlds Great Mandalas, with only three {3} columns of characters,
flanking the Daimoku on each side. The earliest extant of these is #
048 from April of 1278.
Mandala # 056 dated October 19, 1278 (Koan 1). Mandala inscribed by
Nichiren, abbreviated style. Called the Mandarin Duck Gohonzon..
Mandala # 090 ... Simple Mandala or perhaps a letter from Nichiren.
Mandala # 091 ... Mandala inscribed by Nichiren, abbreviated style.
Mandala # 107 ... Mandala inscribed by Nichiren, formal style.
Mandala # 123 ... Mandala inscribed by Nichiren, formal style.
According to some sources, an unpublished Prayer Gohonzon, issued to
Nichiro in 1276, may also be housed there.
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000820.html
Juanjo
"Donkeylung" <jkh3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160511052....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the daimoku. However, there is
> the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
> recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben
> chapter recitation a juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
> recitation.
>
> The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the
> primary practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in
> India) at the center, which is incorrect. On the other hand,
> naN-myoho-renge-kyo is the true law, representing both the essential
> nature of all things and the oneness between the person and the law.
> (it is more complex then this, of course, but that will have to do for
> now.) Because nichiren was the first to be enlightened to the true
> law, he is considered the true buddha.
>
Really? I remember some years ago when certain people were arguing about
whether it was Nam or Namu which was correct. I asked a couple of priests
about this issue. They thought it was the most absurd thing they had ever
heard. There is no doctrinal basis for the distinction. When one chants
rapidly in Japanese, the u drops out. When one chants slowly it is
pronounced. Nothing more, nothing less.
robek
You must worship the Buddha in India, you heretic.
r
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Oct 4, 2006, 6:18pm (CDT-2)
From: labo...@spacegmail.com (Kurt)
I had thought that Buddhism was a non theistic religion. I read though
that Nichiren invoked and was aided by different deities.
How should that be understood?
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> Metaphorical deities. <<< #1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC comments: That is really No-thing [Zen] but a very STUPID idea
that is a very typical display of his INability to answer even simple
questions about Buddhism due to his very arrogant & ignorant,
LYING-ass, low life condition, of course-- Kurt the Hypocrite Triffet!
Buddhism includes the religious concept of polytheism/ many gods, or the
belief/ idea of the existence of many "different deities"/ gods in the
universe. That predates the development of languages and "metaphorical"
speaking and writing in languages by thousands of years. "Duh," Kurt
FOOL?! - sez "Mr T": that's just why "I PITY THE [Kurt] FOOL!" (new
"reality" tv show) ROTFL.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:21am (CDT-2) From: jkh3...@yahoo.com
(Donkeylung)
>>> According to my priest, the shoten zenjin or Buddhist gods are those
forces of nature that cannot be described by naturalistic means. They
cannot be measured or calibrated or anything like that. They are
certainly not metaphorical in the sense that there is a physical trace
1). RC comments: Well, first of all, pray tell, just who is your
"priest"; what's his name?? Old Stoney (me) would like to know who he
is since I am agreeing with him, especially since you are posting
anonymously as "Donkeylung", nka. "DonkeyKong"! - old video game. LOL.
Anyway, according to you, your priest DISagrees with Kurt Triffet's
DUMB-ass mess-age and agrees with my reply to it that "the (Jap.)
shoten-zenjin or Buddhist gods ... are certainly NOT metaphorical"
deities or just a writing creation; of course NOT!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DL] What they are not is conscious in the sense that there is an
agency. There is no "thinking" behind the shoten zenjin. They are
just forces. True Buddhism accepts that there are no creator(s) behind
the universe. Phenomena just is. >>> The only thing that is constant is
the true law of Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is
how you do proper daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather
represent that.) <<< #2.
2). RC comments: See above #1. First of all, you should Stop being so
anonymous & COWARDly and "represent" just who you are, who your alleged
priest is, and what sect of so called Nichiren Buddhism you are
representing with the above statement about the Daimoku. Because, that
is certainly an erroneous and HERETICal statement that is just NOT true
according to the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha and
most other Nichiren founded or derived Buddhist sects/ schools.
"Namu: (Skt namas)) Also pronounced "nam." A transliteration of the
Sanskrit word "namas," meaning devotion. Nichiren Daishonin says of
"nam" in the "Hakumai Ippyo Gosho" (The Gift of Rice), "This word
derives from Sanskrit, and means to devote one's life. Ultimately it
means to offer our lives to the Buddha." In the "Ongi Kuden" (Record of
the Orally Transmitted Teachings), He says, " "Namu" derives from
Sanskrit and means devotion. There are two objects of devotion: the
Person, which is Shakyamuni, and the Law, which is the Lotus Sutra . . .
In the phrase 'to devote (Jap. "ki") one's life ("myo"), "ki" indicates
the physical aspect of life, and "myo", the spiritual aspect."**
**Reference: entry for "Namu" in "A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms and
Concepts, 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #284.
Therefore, it is very clear that the Daishonin/ True Buddha intended for
the word "Namu" to be transliterated & pronounced as NAM or NAMu to
sound like its' original pronounciation in Sanskrit as the proper way of
chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. "NANu" is really No-thing
[Zen] but "NAN-sense" (nonsense), and "Nanu" is just a word derived from
the old "Mork & Mindy" tv comedy show! ROTFL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[DL] In terms of language, atheism and non-theism have different
connotations. Atheism mean a belief that the physical is all that is.
Non-theism is preferred.
Have a happy Oeshiki everybody!
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org
robek wrote:
Nichiren learned that the rampant Yasha and Rasestsu were plaguing the
local inhabitants; under the direction of an evil Shichimen {Sitimen,
hitimen, or a seven headed dragon}.
robek wrote:
robek wrote:
David / Amicus wrote:
I had thought that Buddhism was a non theistic religion. I read though
that Nichiren invoked and was aided by different deities.
How should that be understood?
[Robek] That is up to each person. My take:
Through his insightful Daimoku chanting and profound prayers, Nichiren
was able to determine that the ghastly, evil dragon resided in a deep,
dark, creepy and mysterious cavern; located where the Tsunoda Mountains
rise from Tsunoda Beach, not far from the shore.
The inhabitants built Nichiren a 'daimoku-do' {prayer hut}, where he is
said to have engraved the 'Kishi-no-daimoku' on a shell shaped rock. The
rock serves as record of the event. Nichiren later entered the cave and
subdued the seven headed dragon, by invoking the power of the benevolent
Yasha Kishimo {Hariti] and her Ten {10}Rasetsunyo daughters. The evil
dragon then repented, and agreed to serve as the Daimyojin {guardian
deity} for the village.
There is a Nichiren Shu Temple, Kakuda-san Myoko-ji, located in the
Tsunoda Mountains, with a view of Tsunoda Beach. The Banjindo, a related
Hokke-Shinto Shrine, is apparently located at or near the Temple. The
Sanju-banshin are a group of 30 benevolent deities {kami/jin}, also
known as Shoten Zenjin, who are said to protect votaries of the Lotus
Sutra
http://www.myoukouji.or.jp/
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/robbeck/Sado/smc.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/robbeck/Sado/ksmdmk.jpg
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000694.html
******************************************************
Donkeylung
> "priest"; what's his name?? Old Stoney (me) would like to know who he
> is since I am agreeing with him, especially since you are posting
> anonymously as "Donkeylung", nka. "DonkeyKong"! - old video game. LOL.
>
> Anyway, according to you, your priest DISagrees with Kurt Triffet's
> DUMB-ass mess-age and agrees with my reply to it that "the (Jap.)
> shoten-zenjin or Buddhist gods ... are certainly NOT metaphorical"
> deities or just a writing creation; of course NOT!
My priest's name is Rev. Raido Hirota. I belong to Sambo-in of Fukuoka
City, Hiroshima Prefecture, affiliated with the Nichiren Shoshu
Shoshinkai. He is a very knowledgable priest. Kindly don't disparage
people when they say something incorrect. Correct them, of course, but
keep in mind the spirit of the 24 character Lotus Sutra in the
Bodhisattva Never Disparaging chapter. Everyone has the capacity to
become a Buddha of Nan-myoho-renge-kyo.
> "Namu: (Skt namas)) Also pronounced "nam." A transliteration of the
> Sanskrit word "namas," meaning devotion. Nichiren Daishonin says of
> "nam" in the "Hakumai Ippyo Gosho" (The Gift of Rice), "This word
> derives from Sanskrit, and means to devote one's life. Ultimately it
> means to offer our lives to the Buddha." In the "Ongi Kuden" (Record of
> the Orally Transmitted Teachings), He says, " "Namu" derives from
> Sanskrit and means devotion. There are two objects of devotion: the
> Person, which is Shakyamuni, and the Law, which is the Lotus Sutra . . .
> In the phrase 'to devote (Jap. "ki") one's life ("myo"), "ki" indicates
> the physical aspect of life, and "myo", the spiritual aspect."**
> **Reference: entry for "Namu" in "A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms and
> Concepts, 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #284.
>
> Therefore, it is very clear that the Daishonin/ True Buddha intended for
> the word "Namu" to be transliterated & pronounced as NAM or NAMu to
> sound like its' original pronounciation in Sanskrit as the proper way of
> chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra.
All your quote demonstrates is the meaning and origin of Namu, not the
pronunciation. Ask your priest and see what he says. All I know is
the Rev. Hirota taught me to say naN. I now chant naN. My practice
has improved considerably. That is all that matters for now. Maybe
someday, I will find a better theoretical explanation, but for now I
won't argue with results.
"NANu" is really No-thing
> [Zen] but "NAN-sense" (nonsense), and "Nanu" is just a word derived from
> the old "Mork & Mindy" tv comedy show! ROTFL.
"Nanu" was mentioned by an earlier poster. In fact if you read my
earlier post carefully, you would have noticed that I corrected the
gentleman.
I left a link in my original post (http://www.udumbarafoundation.org if
you are interested)
> 2). RC comments: See above #1. First of all, you should Stop being so
> anonymous & COWARDly and "represent" just who you are, who your alleged
> priest is, and what sect of so called Nichiren Buddhism you are
> representing with the above statement about the Daimoku. Because, that
> is certainly an erroneous and HERETICal statement that is just NOT true
> according to the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha and
> most other Nichiren founded or derived Buddhist sects/ schools.
>
>
Donkeylung
> "priest"; what's his name?? Old Stoney (me) would like to know who he
> is since I am agreeing with him, especially since you are posting
> anonymously as "Donkeylung", nka. "DonkeyKong"! - old video game. LOL.
>
> Anyway, according to you, your priest DISagrees with Kurt Triffet's
> DUMB-ass mess-age and agrees with my reply to it that "the (Jap.)
> shoten-zenjin or Buddhist gods ... are certainly NOT metaphorical"
> deities or just a writing creation; of course NOT!
My priest's name is Rev. Raido Hirota. I belong to Sambo-in of Fukuoka
City, Hiroshima Prefecture, affiliated with the Nichiren Shoshu
Shoshinkai. He is a very knowledgable priest. Kindly don't disparage
people when they say something incorrect. Correct them, of course, but
keep in mind the spirit of the 24 character Lotus Sutra in the
Bodhisattva Never Disparaging chapter. Everyone has the capacity to
become a Buddha of Nan-myoho-renge-kyo.
> "Namu: (Skt namas)) Also pronounced "nam." A transliteration of the
> Sanskrit word "namas," meaning devotion. Nichiren Daishonin says of
> "nam" in the "Hakumai Ippyo Gosho" (The Gift of Rice), "This word
> derives from Sanskrit, and means to devote one's life. Ultimately it
> means to offer our lives to the Buddha." In the "Ongi Kuden" (Record of
> the Orally Transmitted Teachings), He says, " "Namu" derives from
> Sanskrit and means devotion. There are two objects of devotion: the
> Person, which is Shakyamuni, and the Law, which is the Lotus Sutra . . .
> In the phrase 'to devote (Jap. "ki") one's life ("myo"), "ki" indicates
> the physical aspect of life, and "myo", the spiritual aspect."**
> **Reference: entry for "Namu" in "A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms and
> Concepts, 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #284.
>
> Therefore, it is very clear that the Daishonin/ True Buddha intended for
> the word "Namu" to be transliterated & pronounced as NAM or NAMu to
> sound like its' original pronounciation in Sanskrit as the proper way of
> chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra.
All your quote demonstrates is the meaning and origin of Namu, not the
pronunciation. Ask your priest and see what he says. All I know is
the Rev. Hirota taught me to say naN. I now chant naN. My practice
has improved considerably. That is all that matters for now. Maybe
someday, I will find a better theoretical explanation, but for now I
won't argue with results.
"NANu" is really No-thing
> [Zen] but "NAN-sense" (nonsense), and "Nanu" is just a word derived from
> the old "Mork & Mindy" tv comedy show! ROTFL.
"Nanu" was mentioned by an earlier poster. In fact if you read my
earlier post carefully, you would have noticed that I corrected the
gentleman.
I left a link in my original post (http://www.udumbarafoundation.org if
you are interested)
> 2). RC comments: See above #1. First of all, you should Stop being so
> anonymous & COWARDly and "represent" just who you are, who your alleged
> priest is, and what sect of so called Nichiren Buddhism you are
> representing with the above statement about the Daimoku. Because, that
> is certainly an erroneous and HERETICal statement that is just NOT true
> according to the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha and
> most other Nichiren founded or derived Buddhist sects/ schools.
>
>
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:24pm (CDT-2) From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Donkeylung wrote:
According to my priest, the shoten zenjin or Buddhist gods are those
forces of nature that cannot be described by naturalistic means. They
cannot be measured or calibrated or anything like that. They are
certainly not metaphorical in the sense that there is a physical trace
There is no "thinking" behind the shoten zenjin. They are just
forces. True Buddhism accepts that there are no creator(s) behind the
universe. Phenomena just is. The only thing that is constant is the true
law of Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how you do
proper daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather represent that.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
r
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: The answer is "moo" (mu) - No-thing [Zen] -- the moo
(mu) just got Up and ran away after the cow! LOL.
Anyway, old "Donkeylung", nka. "DonkeyKong" is just plain Wrong!
(rhymes) LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 11:57am (CDT-2) From: Ami...@webtv.net
(David / Amicus)
[Donkeylung] <<The only thing that is constant is the true law of
Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how you do proper
daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather represent that.)>>
[D/A] THANKS!!! >>> I was wondering too whether the first word NAM(U) /
NAN(U) was pronounced with one syllable or two. One syllable makes the
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC comments: "Thanks" for what?! The anonymous COWARDly poster,
alias "Donkeylung," nka. DonkeyKong (old video game) just did what all
anonymous COWARDly posters on Arbn usually do -- gave you FALSE
information which is really No-thing [Zen] more than a HERETICal
opinion! DonkeyKong is just plain Wrong! (rhymes) LOL.
Re. "DL's" message above, first of all, the Daimoku is NOT properly
written as "Nan-myoho-renge-kyo", even if it is chanted & MISpronounced
that way, and that is the IMproper way it is written on the website
that he/ she gave a URLink to in his/ her message -- the website for the
(Jap.) Shoshinkai priest-hoods. So, their HERETICal opinion or point
of view re. chanting the Daimoku is just another reason why the
Shoshinkai, nka. "Sho-stinky-kai," priest-hoods all two hundred plus
(200+) of them, were individually EXCOMMUNICATED from the so called
Nichiren Shoshu priest-hood in the 1980s! ROTFL.
Secondly, the one & only way that "proper Daimoku" is chanted is by the
pronunciation of it that was given & taught by Nichiren Daishonin/ the
True Buddha who actually said it and wrote it as the seven (7)
characters of "Namu-myoho-renge-kyo."
Thirdly, and lastly, re. your message, there is really No such thing as
"the first word ... NAN(U)" and pronouncing the Daimoku of the Lotus
Sutra that IMproper way - NO Way, Jose! "Nanu" is just a word that is
derived from the old "Mork and Mindy" comedy tv show! LOL.
Reginald Carpenter
x-ref. to RC (my) posting on 10/11/06, 5:32pm CDT.
****************************************************** Daimoku
pronunciation was Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 1:10pm (CDT-2) From: jkh3...@yahoo.com
(Donkeylung)
>>> It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the daimoku. However, there
is the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben chapter
recitation a juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
1). RC comments: NO, "it is" only being MISpronounced as "nan" when
y-o-u "recite the daimoku," "Donkeylung", nka. DonkeyKong, you're just
plain Wrong! LOL.
"However," the rest of your paragraph is correct.
BTW - I think that your English has improved quite a bit since the last
time that you were posting here years ago.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DL] >>> The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as
the primary practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in
India) at the center, which is incorrect. On the other hand,
naN-myoho-renge-kyo is the true law, representing both the essential
nature of all things and the oneness between the person and the law. (it
is more complex then this, of course, but that will have to do for now.)
Because nichiren was the first to be enlightened to the true law, he is
considered the true buddha. <<< #2.
2). RC comments: Well, you've got that Right --
that "the two are NOT equivalent." Because, re. my 10/11/06 message
below, the one & only way to properly pronounce the Daimoku of the Lotus
Sutra as taught, said & written by the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself is
the seven (7) characters of Namu-myoho-renge-kyo; and, that IS what is
"at the center", right down the center, of the Gohonzon. Your mental
delusional idea that chanting & pronouncing the Daimoku correctly
"places Shakyamuni Butsu (Buddha) at the center" is really No-thing
[Zen] but Japanese RACISM and a PERVERSION of the true teachings of
Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
The hiki-daimoku or prolonged daimoku is a replacement of the practice
of chanting at different places at the head temple. The priests would
chant at one location (hoben, juryo), chant daimoku and then move on to
another location. It is only used in this instance.
Finally, when you chant daimoku it is very important to chant it
correctly. You never want to chant it so fast that the pronunciation is
wrong, even if it feels better. You don't chant to get it over with. It
is better to chant on the slower side, but the individual has to feel it
out. ---------------------------------------------------------------
David / Amicus wrote:
[DonkeyLung] <<The only thing that is constant is the true law of
Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how you do proper
daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather represent that.)>>
---------------------------------------------------------------
[D/A] THANKS!!! I was wondering too whether the first word NAM(U) /
NAN(U) was pronounced with one syllable or two. One syllable makes the
chant / phrase flow more easily! I now see it's one syllable.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 5:32pm
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 11:57am (CDT-2) From: Ami...@webtv.net
(David / Amicus)
[DonkeyLung] <<The only thing that is constant is the true law of
Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how you do proper
daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather represent that.)>>
---------------------------------------------------------------
[D/A] THANKS!!! >>> I was wondering too whether the first word NAM(U) /
NAN(U) was pronounced with one syllable or two. One syllable makes the
******************************************************
Donkeylung
you Romanize it doesn't matter. When you chant, it is the sound that
matters.
Talk to your priest about this. The Shoshinkai and Taisekiji have
their differences, but not in this area. Shoshinkai/NST issues should
be addressed in a different thread anyway. If he knows what is going
on, he will tell you about proper pronunciation.
I am not here for a holy war. If you are so interested in knowing who
I am, email me. I don't care. I don't see how ,my details are
relevant to this discussion.
Kurt
"Donkeylung" <jkh3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Don't take his comments personally. He takes pride in insulting just
about everyone up here. His idea of "WorldPeace", I guess.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:34pm (CDT-2) From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Donkeylung wrote:
It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the daimoku. However, there is
the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben chapter
recitation a juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
recitation.
The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the primary
practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in India) at the
center, which is incorrect. On the other hand, naN-myoho-renge-kyo is
the true law, representing both the essential nature of all things and
the oneness between the person and the law. (it is more complex then
this, of course, but that will have to do for now.) Because nichiren was
the first to be enlightened to the true law, he is considered the true
buddha.
The hiki-daimoku or prolonged daimoku is a replacement of the practice
of chanting at different places at the head temple. The priests would
chant at one location (hoben, juryo), chant daimoku and then move on to
another location. It is only used in this instance.
Finally, when you chant daimoku it is very important to chant it
correctly. You never want to chant it so fast that the pronunciation is
wrong, even if it feels better. You don't chant to get it over with. It
is better to chant on the slower side, but the individual has to feel it
David / Amicus wrote:
Nan-myoho-renge-kyo. (I use Nan because the N sound is how you do proper
daimoku, not NaM-myoho-renge-kyo. I would rather represent that.)>>
[D/A] THANKS!!! I was wondering too whether the first word NAM(U) /
NAN(U) was pronounced with one syllable or two. One syllable makes the
chant / phrase flow more easily! I now see it's one syllable.
[Robek] There are 7 syllables.
>>> Nam' is an elision of Nan and Mu. <<< #1.
1). RC comments: Well, the "bad news" is that your above statement is
Wrong, just as both of the above messages/ postings are Wrong that I/
Stoney (me) have already replied to in separate messages/ postings
today. Pray tell, just what in the h-e-l-l is going on with you people
-- the full Moon is over with now! LOL.
FYI - Because, "Nam' " is NOT "an elision of 'Nan' and 'Mu' ", "RR."
You're only half (1/2) Right there which means that you're still half
(1/2) Wrong, and that just AIN'T all-right in the real-deal practice of
Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism!
"Listen Up"! - Quincy Jones. The truth is that the two (2) Chinese
kanji characters that make Up the one (1) word "Namu" are translated &
pronounced in Chinese as "Nan" and "Wu." However, the Daishonin/ True
Buddha went back in history to the Sanskrit origin/ source of the
Chinese translation, the word "Namas"; and, just as He taught, said &
wrote about it, the word "Namu" is derived from, and is a
transliteration of, "Namas." Both (Skt) "Namas" & "Namu" can be
pronounced as "Nam."
But, the rest of your message below really seems to be A-Okay to old
Stoney (me). We, Arbn readers, have been dis-cussing this issue,
subject/ topic for years on Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!"
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
Nam' or Namu?
Generally this is a topic that often causes people to become contentious
or dismissive. Either way, the point is missed. It is a relevant issue
that is worth examining and re-examining.
here are really cadence/ beat and phonetics issues here. The phonetics
issues are the 'voicing' and 'aspiration' {or lack thereof} of the 'u'
in Namu. This can be Na-mu {2 beats}, Namu {1 beat}, or Nam'. So there
is the six {6} beat Dai-moku, a six {6} beat Dai-mok', and a seven {7}
beat prolonged "Dai-mo-ku" {sic}.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
******************************************************
Juanjo
hence the present pronunciation of "Namu". As to how Nichiren actually
pronounced it, that is only speculation. Japanese pronunciation has evolved
over the centuries just as English has. 13th Century Japanese was not
pronounced the same fashion and 21st century Japanese any more than 13th
century English is pronounced the same as 21st century English. This is not
a doctrinal issue nor is it a sectarian issue. It is a matter of
linguistics.
The reality is that when chanting fast in Japanese, the "u" disappears.
When chanting slowly, the "u" is pronounced. Again a matter of linguistics
and not a doctrinal issue.
"Donkeylung" <jkh3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160615856....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:41pm (CDT-2) From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Donkeylung wrote:
It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the daimoku. However, there is
the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben chapter
recitation.
The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the primary
practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in India) at the
center, which is incorrect. On the other hand, naN-myoho-renge-kyo is
the true law, representing both the essential nature of all things and
the oneness between the person and the law. (it is more complex then
this, of course, but that will have to do for now.) Because nichiren was
the first to be enlightened to the true law, he is considered the true
buddha.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1). RC comments: Re. the comment you made in a previous message on this
thread, now don't y-o-u go there -- becoming "contentious and
dismissive" on this subject area yourself. Because, "what we have here
is a failure to communicate"! - "Cool Hand Luke", classic old movie.
LOL.
First of all, "this is NOT Taiseki-ji revisionist nonsense at its
worst," because the so called Nichiren Shoshu, Head Temple Taiseki-ji
has/ had No-thing [Zen] at all to do with that above info in the 1st
paragraph re. the pronunciation of "Nan" or the info in the 2nd
paragraph re. the idea that chanting "Namu ...... places Shakyamuni
Butsu ...... in the center." And, the "Donkeylung" poster apparently
does NOT even know that "this is" just the INcorrect teachings that were
given to him/ her from the Shoshinkai priest-hoods. Because, I/ we know
for sure that it has NEVER been put in print in any English language
material or taught by the so called Nichiren Shoshu, at least within the
past forty-five (45) years, that "it is pronounced "nan" when you recite
the Daimoku." It "Never Happen"ed! LOL.
And, in my previous messages on this same thread, I/ Stoney (me) have
already corrected the "Donkeylung" postings about the Shoshinkai
priest-hood's mistake they have made re. "Nan", and also already
corrected your "Robek" postings about the mistake you have made re.
"mu."
This is/ has always been a very confusing subject/ topic because, Nobody
has/ had really ever been taught about this until rather recently by the
so called Nichiren Shoshu in the 1990s. So, No offense to you or
anyone, but I'm just going to have to keep going down the line of this
message, and down the line of postings on this thread, in order to try
to straighten this Big mess out once & forever on Arbn: "Where the Fun
Never Stops!" LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Robek] >>> The syllable nan means 'north" alone. With the mu, it is a
transliteration of Namah. <<< #2.
2). RC comments: First, that is a mistake again -- the two (2) Chinese
kanji characters are spelled & pronounced as (Jap.) "nan" & "wu"/
"Nanwu"; so, there is really NO such pronunciation as "nan" & "mu"/
"Nanmu" -- that's INcorrect!
Secondly, it is only the one word that is spelled & pronounced as either
(Jap.) "Namu" or "Nam" that really "is a transliteration of" the
Sanskrit/ Pali word(s), "Namah" or "Namas." And, you have that correct
in the rest of your message below which appears to be A-OK with Stoney
(me). So, I'm just going to end message here and go to have my late
dinner now. : - )
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[Robek] As many of you know, Daimoku means "The Title" and Odaimoku
******************************************************
Hugo Urquiza
> for sure that it has NEVER been put in print in any English language
> material or taught by the so called Nichiren Shoshu, at least within the
> past forty-five (45) years, that "it is pronounced "nan" when you recite
> the Daimoku." It "Never Happen"ed! LOL.
>
"At Kasaga forest atop Mt. Seicho, on the twenty-eighth day of the
fourth month of 1253, at the age of thirty-two, the Daishonin chanted,
"Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, Nan-Myoho- Renge-Kyo,"
towards the rising sun and the universe. This profound declaration
marked the establishment of True Buddhism. Ch this day, He transformed
His name to Nichiren."
Please check this official Nichiren Shoshu link:
http://www.nsglobalnet.jp/page/goichidaiki/photo017.htm
Can be a typo ? I will ask my priest anyway, in a couple of weeks.
Regards,
Hugo
dere...@netscape.net
Hugo Urquiza wrote:
> Can be a typo ? I will ask my priest anyway, in a couple of weeks.
Nan is a literal romanisation of the hiragana or katakana. It is
pronounced nam because it is a contraction of namu followed by myo,
which is a bilabial nasal. Hiragana and katakana do not have a
separate symbol for "m" by itself.
This is also why you see the word for newspaper romanised shinbun *or*
shimbun. It is spelled in hiragana or katakana as the former, but
pronounced as the latter -- again, due to the bilabial "b" immediately
following.
Reference:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_hiragana.htm
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_katakana.htm
Derek Juhl
Hugo Urquiza
Did your temple already celebrated Oeshiki ? If not, when it will ? We
are going to have the Oeshiki celebration here in Argentina on October
29th, it is for all the South-American Nichiren Shoshu believers (not
the brazilian members).
Regards,
Hugo
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
(Hugo Urquiza)
[RC] given to him/ her from the Shoshinkai priest-hoods. Because, I/ we
know for sure that it has NEVER been put in print in any English
language material or taught by the so called Nichiren Shoshu, at least
within the past forty-five (45) years, that "it is pronounced "nan" when
you recite the Daimoku." It "Never Happen"ed! LOL.
"Hugo" quoted:
"At Kasaga forest atop Mt. Seicho, on the twenty-eighth day of the
fourth month of 1253, at the age of thirty-two, the Daishonin chanted,
"Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, Nan-Myoho- Renge-Kyo,"
towards the rising sun and the universe. This profound declaration
marked the establishment of True Buddhism. Ch this day, He transformed
His name to Nichiren."
Please check this official Nichiren Shoshu link:
http://www.nsglobalnet.jp/page/goichidaiki/photo017.htm
>>> Can be a typo? I will ask my priest anyway, in a couple of weeks.
<<< #1.
Regards,
Hugo
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: Well "Yes," there IS a "typo" in the above quote, "Ch"
should be the word "On," but "No," the word (Jap.) "Nan" is NOT a typo.
And, thank you for the URLink. I/ Stoney (me) had already seen it
before, but I did goto it to "check" it again. So, now I can more
fully explain that to you (all), "Hugo."
First of all, the picture at that URLink was made from a modern set of
thirty-five (35) drawings/ paintings that were made depicting the life
of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha, and that was done by a Japanese
artist in the last century, sometime in the 1930s.
The drawings/ paintings are/ were copies or remakes of some, if not all,
of the centuries old, original set of drawings/ paintings that are
displayed inside the Nichiren Shoshu Myoren-ji temple compound, the 700
year old temple originally built by Nanjo Tokimitsu that is located just
a few kilometers away Southwest of the Head Temple, Taiseki-ji in Japan.
No one knows who the original artist was or exactly when the original
drawings/ paintings were made or installed in the temple's building.
But, for the Big 750th anniversary of True Buddhism celebration in year
2002, the so called Nichiren Shoshu commissioned someone for a modern
set of those old drawings/ paintings to be produced and made available
for sale to their own temples that may purchase a complete or partial
set of them to display inside the local temples. For example, at my
local temple, NST - Myogyo-ji in the Chicago area, the chief priest got
either a complete or partial set of them to display on the walls in the
hallway of the temple, but he did not, or was not able to, put Up all of
them on the walls in the hallway in 2002, the first time that I saw
them, so some of them are/ were just kept in a box. The last time that
I've seen the set of them that were on the walls of the hallway was when
I was at the temple for a memorial service on Feb 6, 2006 - that was on
"Superbowl Sunday"!
Secondly, AFAIK - as far as I know, all of the captions that are/ were
printed under the drawings/ paintings like the above one were originally
done by the Japanese artist in Japanese, of course. And, those original
captions in Japanese were apparently just translated into English by
someone else, possibly by a NShoshu priest(s). So, the word "Nan" is
the Japanese pronunciation that was printed & used originally by the
artist in the 1930s and then later translated & printed that same way in
English by who ever did the translation for the official Nichiren Shoshu
Overseas Bureau website when that complete set of modern drawings/
paintings were finally all put on it in 2003 or later.
The word (Jap.) "Nan" was just explained in a previous message on this
same thread by "Derek Juhl", but I will try to clarify it again, the
same way that I have done before in previous messages on this same
thread, that (Jap.) "Nan" is the Japanese pronunciation & spelling of
one of the two (2) Chinese kanji characters pronounced in Japanese as
"Nan" & "Wu"/ "Nanwu", that I/ we were taught to chant as (Jap.) "Nam"
and "Namu" by the so called Nichiren Shoshu from the Daishonin's/ True
Buddha's own teachings & writings - (Jap.) Gosho. AFAIK - so, it has
NEVER taught or ever tried to teach any of its' believers, either
Japanese or non-Japanese speakers, to chant any other way than that
since its' legal name officially became the Nichiren Shoshu in 1912, or
after the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin took office in 1959 and the
first overseas branch of the Soka Gakkai, NSA - Nichiren Shoshu of
America, was created in 1960.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Mark P.
Guess what? I doesn't matter whatsoever how the Daimoku is enunciated.
What matters is that the person chants it. Spend some time studying
for a change instead of worrying about bullshit!
Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:59pm (CDT-2) From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Donkeylung wrote:
Have a happy Oeshiki everybody!
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org
"It is believed that there are only 128 extant Gohonzons inscribed by
Nichiren Daishonin. Yet, there could be more since Daishonin conferred a
Gohonzon to each of the five elder priests (goroso) who were disciples
of Nichiren Daishonin while he was alive, but who abandoned the orthodox
teaching after His death, each going his separate way and establishing
his own sect of Nichiren Buddhism. So the whereabouts of their Gohonzons
is unknown."
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org/ThePractice/Gohonzon.html
[Robek] >>> So the whereabouts of their Gohonzons is unknown? <<< #1.
Nissho's Daimandara of 1280
It is kept at Myohokkeji Temple Tamazawa, Mishima City, Izu, Shizuoka.
Myohokkeji was originally Nissho's Hokkeji Temple at Hama, Kamakura.
Nissho took up residence at Hama after Tatsunokuchi. Hokkeji was
officially founded by Nissho in 1284 and transferred to a Nichiyu in
1317. The Temple was moved to Izu and renamed Myohokkeji by Oman-no-kata
in 1621.
Three other authentic Nichiren Mandala Gohonzon(s) are listed as housed
there. These are:
Mandala #37 dated April 1276 {}, also conferred upon Nissho. The
Nichiren Prayer Gohonzon aka Medicine Mandala (Kenji 2), Given out by
the Independent Movement.
Mandala #62 dated April 8, 1279 (Koan 2). Mandala inscribed by Nichiren,
formal style.
*Mandala #78. Mandala inscribed by Nichiren, abbreviated style.
See Also: Myohokkeji Nichiren Portrait 14th Century
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000844.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC comments: That statement is in the article accessed by the URLink
above to the Shoshinkai website, and it was written by the same
Shoshinkai priest that the poster, "Donkeylung", said/ wrote was his
temple's priest and that has apparently just FooLed the poster into
thinking that he is so knowledgeable about Nichiren Buddhism - NOT!
LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Oct 4, 2006, 3:55pm (CDT-2)
that Nichiren invoked and was aided by different deities.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 1). RC
replies: Well, so sorry that you "thought" Wrong! LOL.
However, The first thing that "should be understood" is that Nobody can
tell you just "how" [that] should be understood", because Nobody can
fathom or read the unfathomable mind of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha to really understand what was His intent or what He was thinking
about in those particular situations when He "invoked" the names of
"different deities" that He was "aided by" at those particular times!
AFAIK - as far as I know, from reading what He said out loud on those
occasions, He actually was admonishing or reprimanding those Buddhist
deities/ gods to do their "jobs" or whatever He thought that they should
have been doing to aid/ protect Him in the first place!
Secondly, it "should be understood" that the concepts of "atheism"
versus "monotheism" originate in Occidental/ Western culture & religion
and DNA - Do NOT Apply to the correct understanding of Oriental/ Eastern
culture & religion. The difference here is that Buddhism, as it was
taught by Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, does NOT answer or concern itself with
the question of whether there is only one supreme being/ god or NOT, and
so it has always embraced the concept of polytheism (many gods) without
rejection of the possibility of monotheism (one god).
So, instead of the question, "how should this be understood" which is
really UNanswerable, the question can asked, "how COULD this be
understood" which old Stoney (me) can easily answer, of course! : - )
The fact of the matter is that after the introduction of Buddhism into
Japan, long before the Daishonin's/ True Buddha's advent, "the law of
the land" mandated that the Shinto deities/ native gods of the country
and the Buddhist deities/ native gods of the countries where Buddhism
had been imported from were to be regarded & respected as equal beings/
deities/ gods. And, Nichiren Daishonin was educated & trained as a
Buddhist priest to believe in and identify the functions of life or
nature that all of those deities/ gods were connected to according to
old Japanese beliefs. So, He invoked or used the names of "different
deities" that served the function(s) or purpose(s) in life that He
needed in order to summon them to the task(s) at hand at the time(s)
that He called/ invoked their name(s).
That's very simple. For example, if one needed carpentry work done, you
would call/ invoke a carpenter for that purpose, NOT an electrician; or,
if one had an electrical problem, you would call/ invoke an electrician
for that reason, NOT a plumber. That is really No-thing [Zen] but acting
Upon human instinct, logic and common sense which AIN'T so common with
folks on Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!"! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Revised & reposted on 10/25/06
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 1:23pm (CDT-2) From: jkh3...@yahoo.com
(Donkeylung)
1). RC comments: Well, first of all, pray tell, just who is your
"priest"; what's his name?? Old Stoney (me) would like to know who he is
since I am agreeing with him, especially since you are posting
anonymously as "Donkeylung", nka. "DonkeyKong"! - old video game. LOL.
Anyway, according to you, your priest DISagrees with Kurt Triffet's
DUMB-ass mess-age and agrees with my reply to it that "the (Jap.)
shoten-zenjin or Buddhist gods ... are certainly NOT metaphorical"
deities or just a writing creation; of course NOT!
>>> My priest's name is Rev. Raido Hirota. I belong to Sambo-in of
Fukuoka City, Hiroshima Prefecture, affiliated with the Nichiren Shoshu
Shoshinkai. He is a very knowledgable priest. Kindly don't disparage
people when they say something incorrect. Correct them, of course, but
keep in mind the spirit of the 24 character Lotus Sutra in the
Bodhisattva Never Disparaging chapter. Everyone has the capacity to
---------------------------------------------------------------
1-1). RC replies: Well, "frankly my dear, I don't give a d-a-m-n" what
his name is! - Clark Gable as "Rhett Butler" in "Gone With the Wind"
LOL.
Because, he's NOT a "very knowledgeable priest" as has been proven on
this thread. He's just a very Wrong priest! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] "Namu: (Skt namas)) Also pronounced "nam." A transliteration of the
Sanskrit word "namas," meaning devotion. Nichiren Daishonin says of
"nam" in the "Hakumai Ippyo Gosho" (The Gift of Rice), "This word
derives from Sanskrit, and means to devote one's life. Ultimately it
means to offer our lives to the Buddha." In the "Ongi Kuden" (Record of
the Orally Transmitted Teachings), He says, " "Namu" derives from
Sanskrit and means devotion. There are two objects of devotion: the
Person, which is Shakyamuni, and the Law, which is the Lotus Sutra . . .
In the phrase 'to devote (Jap. "ki") one's life ("myo"), "ki" indicates
the physical aspect of life, and "myo", the spiritual aspect."**
**Reference: entry for "Namu" in "A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms and
Concepts, 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #284.
Therefore, it is very clear that the Daishonin/ True Buddha intended for
the word "Namu" to be transliterated & pronounced as NAM or NAMu to
sound like its' original pronounciation in Sanskrit as the proper way of
chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra.
[DL] >>> All your quote demonstrates is the meaning and origin of Namu,
not the pronunciation. Ask your priest and see what he says. All I know
is the Rev. Hirota taught me to say naN. I now chant naN. My practice
has improved considerably. That is all that matters for now. Maybe
someday, I will find a better theoretical explanation, but for now I
---------------------------------------------------------------
1-2). RC replies: So sorry, but that's NOT all that the above "quote
demonstrates." But, all that your above statement demonstrates is that
you still have a lot more work to do to fully understand the English
language, starting with using a dictionary, "DonkeyKong"! LOL.
First of all, the purpose of an English dictionary is first & foremost
meant to give the reader
a) the correct spelling of a word, and then next b) the correct
pronunciation of a word, and then c) the correct meaning(s) of the word,
just the way that all of that was correctly given for the word "Namu"
above in "A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms & Concepts."
Secondly, I/ Stoney (me) really does NOT have to "ask" my former
"priest", the 67th High Priest/ Nikken Shonin (retired) who
EXCOMMUNICATED your Shoshinkai "priest" -- "Rev. Hirota" -- from the so
called Nichiren Shoshu priest-hood, any thing! Because, as the highest
authority in Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism at the time, he already wrote & I
quote his definitive lecture on the subject, titled as "On Nam and the
Five/ Seven Characters", that:
"First of all, there is a major difference between the word "Nam" and
the phrase "Myoho-Renge-Kyo" from the standpoint of translation. The
word "Nam" originally derives from Sanskrit, and the Sanskrit
pronunciation is "namas" (Japanese: namu). This "namas" retains its
original phonetic sound, being transliterated into the two Chinese
characters of "na" and "mu." I believe, nevertheless, that the word
"Nam" itself contains a very profound significance. At any rate, this
"Nam" remains as a transliteration."**
**Reference: excerpt from "The Definition of the word Nam"/ Part 1 of
the lecture "On Nam and the Five/ Seven Characters", in "The Collected
Sermons of High Priest Nikken Shonin: 1992-2002" book; copyright 2002 by
NST; page #165.
Therefore, the correct spelling and pronunciation of the first two (2)
characters of the seven (7) characters of the Daimoku is (Jap.) "Namu,"
and "Namu" is chanted as the word "Nam" in the Daimoku of the so called
Nichiren Shoshu, period. "Namu" is only chanted ceremonially or
formally as the (Jap.) "hiki-daimoku" as in doing (Jap.) gongyo.
But, "at any rate," you and your EXCOMMUNICATED so called Nichiren
Shoshu Shoshinkai priest/ "Rev. Hirota" who taught you Wrong both
practice chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra INcorrectly in a
Japanese RACIST way that is NOT according to the correct way that is/
was taught in the doctrinal teachings of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha Himself and either of the last two (2) former high priests of the
so called Nichiren Shoshu for over the last forty-five (45) years,
"DonkeyKong! LOL.
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[RC] "NANu" is really No-thing [Zen] but "NAN-sense" (nonsense), and
"Nanu" is just a word derived from the old "Mork & Mindy" tv comedy
show! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DL] "Nanu" was mentioned by an earlier poster. In fact if you read my
earlier post carefully, you would have noticed that I corrected the
gentleman.
I left a link in my original post (http://www.udumbarafoundation.org if
you are interested)
---------------------------------------------------------------
2). RC comments: See above #1. First of all, you should Stop being so
anonymous & COWARDly and "represent" just who you are, who your alleged
priest is, and what sect of so called Nichiren Buddhism you are
representing with the above statement about the Daimoku. Because, that
is certainly an erroneous and HERETICal statement that is just NOT true
according to the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha and
most other Nichiren founded or derived Buddhist sects/ schools.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[DL] In terms of language, atheism and non-theism have different
connotations. Atheism mean a belief that the physical is all that is.
Non-theism is preferred.
Have a happy Oeshiki everybody!
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org
******************************************************
Alex Beauroy
I am glad to see that Old Big Chief Stone Eagle is at least following
the true teachings on www.udumbarafoundation.org
after a short mental turmoil distraction to the corrupted international
hoax called SGI
Welcome to enlightenment!!!!
Congratulations!!!
Rgds
@lex
Kurt
Alex Beauroy <abea...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Do you practice with a Shoshinkai group in France?
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:41pm (CDT-2) From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Donkeylung wrote:
It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the daimoku. However, there is
the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a hoben chapter
recitation [and] a juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
recitation.
The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the primary
practice places shakamuni butsu ("the buddha" who lived in India) at the
center, which is incorrect. On the other hand, naN-myoho-renge-kyo is
the true law, representing both the essential nature of all things and
the oneness between the person and the law. (it is more complex then
this, of course, but that will have to do for now.) Because nichiren was
the first to be enlightened to the true law, he is considered the true
buddha.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reginald Carpenter
title to:
"The whereabouts of their Gohonzons is unknown" - NOT!*
******************************************************
Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2006, 8:59pm (CDT-2) From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Donkeylung wrote:
Have a happy Oeshiki everybody!
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org
"It is believed that there are only 128 extant Gohonzons inscribed by
Nichiren Daishonin. Yet, there could be more since Daishonin conferred a
Gohonzon to each of the five elder priests (goroso) who were disciples
of Nichiren Daishonin while he was alive, but who abandoned the orthodox
teaching after His death, each going his separate way and establishing
his own sect of Nichiren Buddhism. So the whereabouts of their Gohonzons
is unknown."
http://www.udumbarafoundation.org/ThePractice/Gohonzon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
Nissho's Daimandara of 1280
It is kept at Myohokkeji Temple Tamazawa, Mishima City, Izu, Shizuoka.
Myohokkeji was originally Nissho's Hokkeji Temple at Hama, Kamakura.
Nissho took up residence at Hama after Tatsunokuchi. Hokkeji was
officially founded by Nissho in 1284 and transferred to a Nichiyu in
1317. The Temple was moved to Izu and renamed Myohokkeji by Oman-no-kata
in 1621.
Three other authentic Nichiren Mandala Gohonzon(s) are listed as housed
there. These are:
Mandala #37 dated April 1276 {}, also conferred upon Nissho. The
Nichiren Prayer Gohonzon aka Medicine Mandala (Kenji 2), Given out by
the Independent Movement.
Mandala #62 dated April 8, 1279 (Koan 2). Mandala inscribed by Nichiren,
formal style.
*Mandala #78. Mandala inscribed by Nichiren, abbreviated style. See
Also: Myohokkeji Nichiren Portrait 14th Century
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000844.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
article accessed by the URLink above to the Shoshinkai website, and it
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 12:46am (CDT+5) From: del...@delete.perltng.com
(Mark P.)
>>> You people are completely uninformed as to pronunciation! <<< #1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: Well, as we the people can see from reading your very
Dumb-ass mess-age, you "are completely" gone out of your d-a-m-ned
"cotton-picking" mind, "Mark P"! ROTFL.
Because, compared to any other person on this same thread, you are/
were the only person who could NOT say/ write anything intelligently or
relevantly to discuss either the old or the new subject; so, you were
only capable of writing something that was "contentious & dismissive"
and negative & Stupid, of course!
Because, your arrogant & ignorant, Lying-ass, very low life conditioned
Dumb-ass is "completely uniformed" about both (Jap.) Daimoku and
atheism, since you only practice "Porterism" which AIN'T Buddhism, "Mark
P"!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[MP] >>> Guess what? I [it] doesn't matter whatsoever how the Daimoku is
enunciated. <<< #2.
---------------------------------------------------------------
2). RC replies: See #1 above. Well, you "guess what?" -- you're
"whatsoever" Wrong again, Mark P FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
First of all, just because something "doesn't matter whatsoever" to
your Dumb-ass -- "how the Daimoku is enunciated" -- in Porter-ism, which
is just your Dumb-ass O/P - opinion/ perversion of Buddhism, it doesn't
mean that that's true in Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism!
"Because each syllable or group of syllables is a word or phrase which
contains profound meaning, MISpronunciation of a word will change the
meaning of the sutra"!**
**Reference: Excerpt from the "Pronunciation Guide" section of "The
Liturgy of Nichiren Shoshu", aka. (Jap.) "gongyo book", Nichiren Shoshu
Head Temple, Taiseki-ji Edition, copyright 1992; pg vi (6).
So, since there are five/ seven characters/ syllables or four/ five
words in the mantra/ phrase of the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra, then the
MISpronunciation of ANY one of them "whatsoever" will change the true
meaning of the Daimoku how ever!
FYI - for an example, just in the Chinese character for the word (Jap.)
"Namu," there are three (3) different ways to pronounce it in classical/
traditional Chinese that have separate meanings, but all similarly mean
the same word "devotion" - Jap. "kimyo":
"Bao Fo Jiao", "Xiao Zhong" and "Re Cheng"; and, the easiest & simplest
Chinese pinyin written pronunciation of all that is: "Zhong" meaning
"loyalty, devotion, fidelity."
But, those are all qualities/ traits that you "are completely" lacking
in anyway, so I guess that how ever the way that y-o-u MISpronounce
Daimoku and/ or Gongyo "whatsoever" is just A-OK in Porterism, "Mark P",
you IDIOT!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> What matters is that the person chants it. Spend some time studying
for a change instead of worrying about bullshit! <<< #3.
Mark Porter
---------------------------------------------------------------
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 above. Your very Dumb-ass mess-age really
proves & shows to Arbn readers that y-o-u have NOT been either chanting
the Daimoku correctly or spending enough "time studying for a change"
yourself, "instead of" spending your time trying to "copycat" and
PLAGIARIZE the old Will Kallander's Gosho.net website to create a
Porter-ism website, tryng to be Somebody, that you are only bullsh*tting
yourself and other people into reading/ seeing it. That's just why, we
people call what you do, the one & only thing that you have show us on
Arbn that you can really do re. Buddhism in general & Nichiren Buddhism
in particular, is called "mental masturbation" - Vice-President Spiro
Agnew (R.I.P.), old Mark P FooL! ROTFL.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Hugo Urquiza wrote:
Can be a typo ? I will ask my priest anyway, in a couple of weeks.
Nan is a literal romanisation of the hiragana or katakana. It is
pronounced nam because it is a contraction of namu followed by myo,
which is a bilabial nasal. >>> Hiragana and katakana do not have a
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC comments: Well, just when are "you people" (Mark Porter) going to
just Stop over-analysing it & giving it your Occidental/ Western
European linguistic explanations & interpretations about this Oriental/
Eastern language & religion?! Answer - Never Happen! LOL.
It could be just an oversight on your part, or that you don't know, or
neglected to say/ write the simple fact/ truth that both "Hiragana and
Katakana do NOT have a separate symbol for [the letter] "N" by itself"
either, "DJuhl" FOOL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
Therefore, since the words "Nam" and "Nan" are both "a literal
Romanization of the Hiragana and Katakana", your explanation that "Nan
.. is pronounced nam" is False, and really No-thing [Zen] but
"NANsense" (non-sense)! ROTFL.
Now, please excuse old Stoney (me) while I go to clean out my "bilabial
nasal" passages after reading your bullsh*t, "DJuhl" FOOL! ROTFL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
This is also why you see the word for newspaper romanised shinbun *or*
shimbun. It is spelled in hiragana or katakana as the former, but
pronounced as the latter -- again, due to the bilabial "b" immediately
following.
Reference:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_hiragana.htm
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_katakana.htm
Derek Juhl
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 12:05pm (CDT+7) From: abea...@wanadoo.fr
(Alex Beauroy)
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 1:23pm (CDT-2) From: jkh3...@yahoo.com
(Donkeylung)
1). RC comments: Well, first of all, pray tell, just who is your
"priest"; what's his name?? Old Stoney (me) would like to know who he is
since I am agreeing with him, especially since you are posting
anonymously as "Donkeylung", nka. "DonkeyKong"! - old video game. LOL.
Anyway, according to you, your priest DISagrees with Kurt Triffet's
DUMB-ass mess-age and agrees with my reply to it that "the (Jap.)
shoten-zenjin or Buddhist gods ... are certainly NOT metaphorical"
deities or just a writing creation; of course NOT!
---------------------------------------------------------------
######################################>>> I am glad to see that Old Big
Chief Stone Eagle is at least following the true teachings on
www.udumbarafoundation.org after a short mental turmoil distraction to
the corrupted international hoax called SGI
Welcome to enlightenment!!!!
Congratulations!!! <<<
Rgds
@lex
---------------------------------------------------------------
RC replies: Well, thank you, "Alex." I am hoping for the day when the
Shoshinkai will open a temple in the Midwestern part of the USA, that
is, if they are still trying to follow the orthodox & true teachings of
the Daishonin/ True Buddha as they/ we were taught them to be in the
last century, before the DISunity and "all H-e-l-l broke loose" with the
so called Nichiren Shoshu priest-hood.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Kurt
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> ######################################>>> I am glad to see that Old Big
> Chief Stone Eagle is at least following the true teachings on
> www.udumbarafoundation.org after a short mental turmoil distraction to
> the corrupted international hoax called SGI
> Welcome to enlightenment!!!!
> Congratulations!!! <<<
> Rgds
> @lex
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> RC replies: Well, thank you, "Alex." I am hoping for the day when the
> Shoshinkai will open a temple in the Midwestern part of the USA, that
> is, if they are still trying to follow the orthodox & true teachings of
> the Daishonin/ True Buddha as they/ we were taught them to be in the
> last century, before the DISunity and "all H-e-l-l broke loose" with the
> so called Nichiren Shoshu priest-hood.
>
> WorldPeace! } : < { 0
> ******************************************************
Although Alex still hasn't chosen to answer whether of not he's
practicing with the Shoshinkai, there are practitioners here in the US.
You are the authority on everything, surely you can track down the
Shoshinkai.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2006, 7:22pm (CST-1)
From: labo...@spacegmail.com (Kurt)
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: Well, just because "Alex" has chosen NOT to tell you &
that old NaSTy-ass priest-hood, that he knows you work for and try to
report everything little thing to them that's said/ written on Arbn
about the other Nichiren sects that "Ain't None of Yo' Bizness" (old rap
song) or theirs, just where he practices with the Shoshinkai does NOT
mean that old Stoney (me) or anyone else but y-o-u is really trying to
"track down the Shoshinkai" to find out where they are and what they're
doing there, Kurt the Hypocrite Triffet!
So, please don't try to take out your obvious frustrations with him on
poor old Stoney (me), and try to get your way with "Alex" in your usual
NST - normal, snakey/ sneaky & tacky way by MISusing Stoney's (my)
message(s) to him, Kurt FooL! LOL.
IOW - You just "stay out of grownUps' affairs", Kurt FooL! - sez "Mister
T." LOL.
BTW - Now, the score at half-time is Da Bears 41 & Da 49ers 0 = No-thing
[Zen] ! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Kurt
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
Reggie, sorry about your continuing anger problems.
The sake didn't seem to help.
I have no issue with people from other sects. I just spent the day
hiking with one of my good friends who is an SGI chapter leader.
It is possible to have friends everywhere, regardless of their religiuos
affiliation.
Your ignorance continues to shine with such remarks that somehow my
agenda includes "reporting" to the priests. LOL.
You don't get the big picture, you never will. Only the one-track
"Buddhist War Jihad."
I am curious about Alex because I have a lot of family in France and
have a strong affinity to the French culture. We all have our reasons
for not talking more about ourselves up here, shame that someone might
be afraid of letting others know their religious affiliation. I happen
to be curious about Shoshinkai in France. Spin it all you want.
I respect another's right to choose what religion they want to practice.
No "war"
No "Jihad"
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2006, 2:30pm (CST-2) From: labo...@spacegmail.com
(Kurt)
In article <5060-454...@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net>,
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2006, 7:22pm (CST-1)
From: labo...@spacegmail.com (Kurt)
In article <8433-454...@storefull-3333.bay.webtv.net>,
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
######################################>>> I am glad to see that Old Big
Chief Stone Eagle is at least following the true teachings on
www.udumbarafoundation.org after a short mental turmoil distraction to
the corrupted international hoax called SGI Welcome to enlightenment!!!!
Congratulations!!! <<<
Rgds
@lex
[Kurt] >>> Reggie, sorry about your continuing anger problems. <<< #1.
1). RC replies: "NO," it's my "drinking buddy," "Mel Gibson," that's got
"anger [management] problems," NOT gentle & humble Stoney (me)! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> The sake didn't seem to help. <<< #2.
2). RC: "Yes," it did -- "Melly Mel" helped Stoney (me) to "kill the
bottle" and he/ we didn't hurt Nobody! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> I have no issue with people from other sects. <<< #3.
3). RC: Oh, "Yes" you do, since you are a PAID employee of the NaSTy -
Nichiren Shoshu Temple priest-hoods which has made a serious "issue with
people from ALL other sects" of Nichiren Buddhism, especially with the
old Shoshinkai, the first body of people that they tried to destroy by
EXCOMMUNICATION, and are just going to keep on trying to destroy them!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> I just spent the day hiking with one of my good friends who
is an SGI chapter leader. It is possible to have friends everywhere,
regardless of their religious affiliation. <<< #4.
4). RC: Well, since you can't spy on the SGI organization through your
wife anymore, who was a Big WD leader always putting her experiences in
articles in the WT newspaper, you've got to try to do it through someone
else who's actively engaged in practice and has a Big position in the
SGI-USA today. So, you can just "take a hike" with this dancing &
spinning that you're trying to do on Arbn readers. I/ we all know you
better than that, Kurt the Hypocrite Triffet! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- [Kurt]
>>> Your ignorance continues to shine with such remarks that somehow my
agenda includes "reporting" to the priests. LOL. <<< #5.
5). RC: See #3 &4 above -- Well, the reason that old Stoney (me) is able
to see "your ignorance" & see through your deviousness is that I was
really able to see the "agenda" as well as the Avarice, Anger &
Stupidity/ ignorance of the so called NST - Nichiren Shoshu Temple
priest-hoods in NST "shine through", "with such remarks" that were told
by those PARANOID/ SCHIZOID NaSTy priests giving "guidance" & lecturing
to the NSH members as a) being told about "reporting" any contacts from
SGI to the priests, and b) being told that NSH members should NOT to
have any contacts with SGI members, and c) being told that NSH could NOT
go to attend ANY activities including memorial services and/ or have any
contacts with SGI members at the SGI's culture centers!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> You don't get the big picture, you never will. Only the
one-track "Buddhist War Jihad."<<< #6.
6). RC: See #s 3-5 above. So, that's pretty much "the big picture" that
Stoney (me) got & had to witness from the NaSTy priest-hood for almost
twelve (12) years, 1990 - 2002; only their "one-track", subtle, sneaky,
snakey BJW - Buddhist Jihad War vs. the Soka Gakkai/ SGI that they
"never will" Stop -- "Never Happen!" LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> I am curious about Alex because I have a lot of family in
France and have a strong affinity to the French culture. We all have our
reasons for not talking more about ourselves up here, shame that someone
might be afraid of letting others know their religious affiliation. I
happen to be curious about Shoshinkai in France. Spin it all you want.
<<< #7.
7). RC: See #s 3-6 above. So sorry, "Alex" & Arbn readers can see all
of the dancing & spinning that you have posted/ written after claiming
that you "just spent the day hiking" which is at least ten (10) times
more than those one-liners that you normally write about anything,
"Kurt." So, just who are you trying to FooL here, or who are you
"trying out" for -- "Dancing with the Stars" (tv show)?! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Kurt] >>> I respect another's right to choose what religion they want
to practice. <<< #8.
No "war"
No "Jihad"
---------------------------------------------------------------
8). RC replies: See #s 3 & 6 above. Oh, please Stop your alibi-ing &
LYING, and don't even try make your CON job phony "disclaimers" work on
"Alex" & Arbn readers like old Stoney (me) who know you better than
that, and that you are a PAID employee & NSHokkeko member of that old
NaSTy-ass so called Nichiren Shoshu that really does NOT "respect" and
HATES anybody's "right to choose what religion they want to practice" if
it is NOT the so called Nichiren Shoshu, especially if they were
EXCOMMUNICATED from the NS religion and they've chosen to still practice
NDB - Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism with "another's" religious group
"such as [the] Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI":
"Many sects of Buddhism have objects of worship, but three key questions
are: do these various objects of worship have the power of the Buddha
and the power of the Law, can these objects of worship plant the seed of
enlightenment in our lives, and do any of these objects of worship have
the power to make it possible for us to erase our negative karma and
experience enlightenment in this lifetime without changing our form?
When we examine other sects of Buddhism in this way, basing our
examination on their doctrines, the soundness of their theories and,
most importantly, on their actual results, it is clear that none of
these other sects have the correct object of worship.
Examples of "an incorrect object" can be found in those organizations or
sects which claim to have some kind of connection to the True Buddhism
of Nichiren Daishonin, such as Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI.
Although these so called Buddhist organizations or religions are aware
of the importance of having an object of worship, they have
misinterpreted or even altered the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin to
such an extent that their practices and beliefs are no longer related to
True Buddhism. This is truly regrettable. Because these organizations
have deviated from Nichiren Daishonin's intentions, no matter how many
Daimoku these people might chant, their Daimoku is no longer the Daimoku
of Nichiren Daishonin's True Teaching; because they are merely using
Nichiren Daishonin for their selfish reasons, their Daimoku is the
Daimoku of someone who can no longer acknowledge their debt of gratitude
to the Daishonin and they are sowing the seeds for their own failure." -
"Rev." Yuzui Murata, chief priest, Myogyoji Temple; excerpt from sermon
given on April 14, 2002; published in his 2002 book of sermons by him;
2nd para. on page #16.
So, "whoops, there it is; whoops, there it is!" --
the NST chief priest's given reasons for "Kurt" and NST/ NSHokkeko
employees' & members' and the so called Nichiren Shoshu's a) Big Grudge
"issue with people from other sects", and b) your and the NaSTy
priest-hood's "right" to HATE & DISrespect "another's right to choose
what religion they want to practice" if the religious organization is
the "Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI"!
However, the real, true irony, hypocrisy & Stupidity of the NST chief
priest's lecture, err I meant his "sermon", is that there are many
people who are still chanting the Daimoku to the same "objects of
worship" in the "Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI", still enshrined
in their homes, temple(s) or culture center(s), that are/ were the same
"correct object of worship" issued to them by the so called NST -
Nichiren Shoshu Temple priest-hoods! ROTFL.
So, if I/ Stoney was "Alex," then I wouldn't tell you any thing at all
about myself and/ or the Shoshinkai either, because you all, the NaSTy
priest-hoods & NSHoe-cake-ko employees/ members have such a history &
proven "track record" of backstabbing, SLANDER & treachery against
Everybody, that you all are just NOT the kind of Nichiren "Buddhists" to
be trusted at all by any real-deal, true Nichiren Daishonin Buddhists or
by Anybody else but a FOOL like you, Kurt the Hypocrite Triffet! LOL.
"No WorldPeace"! } : < { 0
dere...@netscape.net
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
> 8). RC replies: See #s 3 & 6 above. Oh, please Stop your alibi-ing &
> LYING, and don't even try make your CON job phony "disclaimers" work on
> "Alex" & Arbn readers like old Stoney (me) who know you better than
> that, and that you are a PAID employee & NSHokkeko member of that old
> NaSTy-ass so called Nichiren Shoshu that really does NOT "respect" and
> HATES anybody's "right to choose what religion they want to practice" if
> it is NOT the so called Nichiren Shoshu, especially if they were
> EXCOMMUNICATED from the NS religion and they've chosen to still practice
> NDB - Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism with "another's" religious group
> "such as [the] Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI":
"Members of the Minobu school of the Nichiren sect chant daimoku. They
have the Gosho. Their recitation of the sutra also includes the Hoben
and Juryo chapters. And, in the Shoshinkai, which consists of
ex-priests of Nichiren Shoshu, the portions of the sutra they recite
and the daimoku that they chant are identical to the practice we
observe. Though their religion may seem the same as ours, they lack the
single, unbroken Heritage of the Law recieved directly from Nichiren
Daishonin. If one's faith is not based on this line of inheritance, it
is worthless to embrace any Gohonzon, for no benefit will be
forthcoming. That is to say, 'Without the lifeblood of faith, it would
be useless to embrace the Lotus Sutra.'" SGI President Daisaku Ikeda,
_Buddhism in Action_, vol. 3, p. 254
Derek Juhl
Kurt
dere...@netscape.net wrote:
Reggie,
It is ones' choice to practice a particular religion. Just because they
religion one practices does not agree with my own doesn't mean in any
way, that I would dislike that person.
You rant and you rave, but you are still clueless.
Have fun in your "Buddhist Jihad War."
dere...@netscape.net
Kurt wrote:
> It is one's choice to practice a particular religion. Just because the
> religion one practices does not agree with my own doesn't mean in any
> way, that I would dislike that person.
I agree completely. Reggie doesn't get it.
Derek Juhl
Alex Beauroy
> I am curious about Alex because I have a lot of family in France and
> have a strong affinity to the French culture. We all have our reasons
> for not talking more about ourselves up here, shame that someone might
> be afraid of letting others know their religious affiliation. I happen
> to be curious about Shoshinkai in France. Spin it all you want.
Do you like french cuisine Kurt?????
Rgds
@lex
Juanjo
"Kurt" <labo...@spacegmail.com> wrote in message
news:labolide-B66CAF...@news.giganews.com...
I have to say that I strongly endorse this position of Kurt's.
Kurt
Alex Beauroy <abea...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Bien sur!
Reginald Carpenter
subject/ title to:
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
******************************************************
Re: Daimoku pronunciation; was Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 3:54pm (CDT-2) From: dere...@netscape.net
Hugo Urquiza wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------- Derek
Juhl wrote:
Nan is a literal romanisation of the hiragana or katakana. It is
pronounced nam because it is a contraction of namu followed by myo,
which is a bilabial nasal. >>> Hiragana and katakana do not have a
separate symbol for "m" by itself. <<< #1.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 1). RC
comments: Well, just when are "you people" (Mark Porter) going to just
Stop over-analysing it & giving it your Occidental/ Western European
linguistic explanations & interpretations about this Oriental/ Eastern
language & religion?! Answer - Never Happen! LOL.
It could be just an oversight on your part, or that you
don't know, or neglected to say/ write the simple fact/ truth that both
"Hiragana and Katakana do NOT have a separate symbol for [the letter]
"N" by itself" either, "DJuhl" FOOL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
Therefore, since the words "Nam" and "Nan" are both "a
implication that "Nan ... is pronounced nam" is False, and really
No-thing [Zen] but "NANsense" (non-sense)! ROTFL.
nasal" passages after reading your bullsh*t, "DJuhl" FooL! ROTFL.
Reginald Carpenter
subject/ title to:
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
******************************************************
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
--------------------------------------------------------------- 1). RC
replies: Well, as "We the people" can see from reading your very
Dumb-ass mess-age, you "are completely" gone out of your d-a-m-ned
"cotton-picking" mind, "Mark P"! ROTFL.
Because, compared to any other person on this same thread,
you are/ were the only person who could NOT say/ write anything
intelligently or relevantly to discuss either the old or the new
subject; so, you were only capable of writing something that was
Because, your arrogant & ignorant, Lying-ass, very low life
Daimoku and atheism, since you only practice "Porterism" which AIN'T
Buddhism, "Mark P"!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[MP] >>> Guess what? I [it] doesn't matter whatsoever how the Daimoku is
enunciated. <<< #2.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 2). RC
replies: See #1 above. Well, you "guess what?" -- you're "whatsoever"
Wrong again, Mark P FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
First of all, just because something "doesn't matter
whatsoever" to your Dumb-ass -- "how the Daimoku is enunciated" -- in
Porter-ism, which is just your Dumb-ass O/P - opinion/ perversion of
Buddhism, it doesn't mean that that's true in Nichiren Daishonin's True
Buddhism!
"Because each syllable or group of syllables is a word or phrase which
the meaning of the sutra"!**
**Reference: Excerpt from the "Pronunciation Guide" section of "The
Head Temple, Taiseki-ji Edition, copyright 1992; pg vi (6).
four/ five words in the mantra/ phrase of the Daimoku of the Lotus
Sutra, then the MISpronunciation of ANY one of them "whatsoever" will
change the true meaning of the Daimoku how ever!
FYI - for an example, just in the Chinese character for the word (Jap.)
"Namu," there are three (3) different ways to pronounce it in classical/
traditional Chinese that have separate meanings, but all similarly mean
the same word "devotion" - Jap. "kimyo":
"Bao Fo Jiao", "Xiao Zhong" and "Re Cheng"; and, the easiest & simplest
"loyalty, devotion, fidelity."
But, those are all qualities/ traits that you "are completely" lacking
in anyway, so I guess that how ever the way that y-o-u MISpronounce
Daimoku and/ or Gongyo "whatsoever" is just A-OK in Porterism, "Mark P",
you IDIOT!
--------------------------------------------------------------- What
matters is that the person chants it. Spend some time studying for a
change instead of worrying about bullshit! <<< #3.
Mark Porter
---------------------------------------------------------------
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 above. Your very Dumb-ass mess-age really
proves & shows to Arbn readers that y-o-u have NOT been either chanting
the Daimoku correctly or spending enough "time studying for a change"
yourself, "instead of" spending your time trying to "copycat" and
PLAGIARIZE the old Will Kallander's Gosho.net website to create a
Porter-ism website, tryng to be Somebody, that you are only bullsh*tting
people call what you do, the one & only thing that you have show us on
Arbn that you can really do re. Buddhism in general & Nichiren Buddhism
in particular, is called "mental masturbation" - Vice-President Spiro
Agnew (R.I.P.), old Mark P FooL! ROTFL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
robek
Nichiren only mentioned 5 character and 7 character Daimoku, never 6.
The character Nan alone would mean south, not Namah/Namas/Namo.
Nichiren repeatedly wrote that Nan-Mu or Namu is a Sanskrit word, not
Chinese. The Chinese word for Namah, Onyumi reading, I think is Kimyo.
So Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo would mean "South Wondrous Dharrna Lotus Flower
Sutra".
"Thus the Great Teacher Nan-yueh in his Hokke sempo [The Lotus Sutra
Method of Repentance] employs the words Namu-myoho-renge-kyo. The Great
Teacher T'ien-t'ai employs the words ... Keishu-myoho-renge-kyo [I bow
my head before the Lotus Sutra], and Kimyo-myoho-renge-kyo [I dedicate
my life to the Wondrous Dharma {White} Lotus Flower Sutra]." -- Totaigi
Sho
"Question: Is it possible, without understanding the meaning of the
Lotus Sutra, but merely by chanting the five or seven characters of
Namu-myoho-renge-kyo once a day, once a month, or simply once a year,
once a decade, or once in a lifetime, to avoid being drawn into trivial
or serious acts of evil, to escape falling into the four evil paths,
and instead to eventually reach the stage of non-regression? Answer:
Yes, it is." -- The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2006, 2:14pm (CST-2)
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
My reaction to "Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo":
>>> Nichiren only mentioned 5 character and 7 character Daimoku, never
6. The character Nan alone would mean south, not Namah/ Namas/ Namo.
Nichiren repeatedly wrote that Nan-Mu or Namu is a Sanskrit word, not
Chinese. The Chinese word for Namah, Onyumi reading, I think is Kimyo.
Sutra". <<< #1.
1). RC replies: Well, "my reaction" to your above statements is that you
are still con-fused & very unsure about this subject/ topic that has
gotten you/ us all really "Lost In Translation"! - (movie) LOL.
Because, the "bad news" is that you/ we all were really NEVER taught
about this correctly in the first place by the Japanese who are/ were
just as con-fused & unsure about it and just how to explain, interpret &
translate it to anyone else to understand it beside themselves.
But, the "good news" is that as I live & breathe, I think that you/ we
(all) are definitely going to be able to straighten out all of this Big
mess eventually here on the Arbn internet for good, that is, I hope!
LOL.
So first of all, going "back to square one (1)" again, as I/ Stoney
wrote before in previous messages, there is really No such word as
(Jap.) "Nan-Mu", and (Jap.) "kimyo" is NOT Chinese -- that's absolutely
Wrong! The correct word for the first two characters of the Daimoku in
Japanese is "Nan-wu"**:
"Nam in Chinese --- The character pronounced "Nam" by Nichiren Buddhists
is composed of two [2] main Chinese characters: "Nan" on top and "Wu" on
the bottom."**
"Nanwu has NO meaning in Chinese. It is a sound construct used by [the]
early Chinese Buddhists to imitate the sound of the Sanskrit word
"Namas."**
IOW - "Nam" and "Nanwu" are both the pronunciations spoken by the
Japanese "Nichiren Buddhists" of the first or top "two [2] main Chinese
characters" of the Daimoku as it is written on the Gohonzon "to imitate
the sound of the Sanskrit word "Namas."
**Reference - The Imagery of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra website:
<http://www.gakkaionline.net/Imagery/Nam.html>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Robek quoted:
>>> "Thus the Great Teacher Nan-yueh in his Hokke sempo [The Lotus Sutra
Method of Repentance] employs the words Namu-myoho-renge-kyo. The Great
Teacher T'ien-t'ai employs the words ... Keishu-myoho-renge-kyo [I bow
my head before the Lotus Sutra], and Kimyo-myoho-renge-kyo [I dedicate
my life to the Wondrous Dharma {White} Lotus Flower Sutra]." -- Totaigi
Sho <<< #2.
2). RC comments: See #1 above -- your own confusion is because, all of
the foreign words
in the Japanese to English translation above, INcluding the names of the
Chinese Buddhists and the title of the Gosho, are written to sound/ be
pronounced in Japanese NOT Chinese -- "Namu", "Keishu" & "Kimyo" are
all Japanese, "if you please"! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Robek quote:
>>> "Question: Is it possible, without understanding the meaning of the
Lotus Sutra, but merely by chanting the five or seven characters of
Namu-myoho-renge-kyo once a day, once a month, or simply once a year,
once a decade, or once in a lifetime, to avoid being drawn into trivial
or serious acts of evil, to escape falling into the four evil paths, and
instead to eventually reach the stage of non-regression? Answer: Yes, it
is." -- The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra <<< #3.
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 above -- The Daishonin/ True Buddha
apparently was so enlightened to the Truth that He decided or realized
in His infinite wisdom that (Jap.) "Namu" or "Nam" is/ was the best &
most correct pronunciation of those first or top "two [2] main Chinese
characters" on His Gohonzon for everyone who ever lives to chant or
recite/ say It correctly -- the seven (7) charactered Daimoku of the
Lotus Sutra, period.
robek
<http://www.gakkaionline.net/Imagery/Nam.html>
Terry Ruby?
robek
On'yomi (Chinese reading)
Sino-Japanese reading, is a Japanese approximation of the Chinese
pronunciation of the character at the time it was introduced. Some
kanji were introduced from different parts of China at different times,
and so have multiple on'yomi, and often multiple meanings. Kanji
invented in Japan would not normally be expected to have on'yomi, but
there are exceptions, such as the character 働 'to work', which has
the kun'yomi hataraku and the on'yomi dō, and 腺 'gland', which has
only the on'yomi sen.
Generally, on'yomi are classified into four types:
* Go-on (literally Wu sound) readings, from the pronunciation of
the Wu region (in the vicinity of modern Shanghai), during the 5th and
6th centuries.
* Kan-on (literally Han sound) readings, from the pronunciation
during the Tang Dynasty in the 7th to 9th centuries, primarily from the
standard speech of the capital, Chang'an.
* Tō-on (literally Tang sound) readings, from the pronunciations
of later dynasties, such as the Song and Ming, covers all readings
adopted from the Heian era to the Edo period
robek
What we chant is a Japanese approximation of old Chinese. It is NOT
Japanese. Mu, not Wu,
is the reading we use.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2006, 9:52pm (CST-2) From: dere...@netscape.net
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
8). RC replies: See #s 3 & 6 above. Oh, please Stop your alibi-ing &
LYING, and don't even try make your CON job phony "disclaimers" work on
"Alex" & Arbn readers like old Stoney (me) who know you better than
that, and that you are a PAID employee & NSHokkeko member of that old
NaSTy-ass so called Nichiren Shoshu that really does NOT "respect" and
HATES anybody's "right to choose what religion they want to practice" if
it is NOT the so called Nichiren Shoshu, especially if they were
EXCOMMUNICATED from the NS religion and they've chosen to still practice
NDB - Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism with "another's" religious group
"such as [the] Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI":
Juhl quoted:
They have the Gosho. Their recitation of the sutra also includes the
Hoben and Juryo chapters. And, in the Shoshinkai, which consists of
ex-priests of Nichiren Shoshu, the portions of the sutra they recite and
the daimoku that they chant are identical to the practice we observe.
Though their religion may seem the same as ours, they lack the single,
If one's faith is not based on this line of inheritance, it is worthless
to embrace any Gohonzon, for no benefit will be forthcoming. That is to
say, 'Without the lifeblood of faith, it would be useless to embrace the
Lotus Sutra.'" SGI President Daisaku Ikeda, _Buddhism in Action_, vol.
Derek Juhl
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: "Jesus H. Christ" you dickwad!" - Craig D.at Brat-cher,
your Arbn mentor. LOL.
Pray tell, just when in the H-e-l-l are you going to get some new
material since the stuff that you keep on reposting from over forty (40)
years ago in the last century, over & over again is just as old, played
out & worn out as a "Robert Hall" suit is in your "straight" closet,
"DJuhl" FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
But, since you insist on playing such childish games with all that
non-sense, then we really must quote from an even older book if doing
that is so true and valid to you, then so is this below that reads/ says
that:
"To meet a master of propagation (a Leader of Kosen-rufu) is, in any
age, very difficult. How happy and fortunate we are that the greatest
Master of Propagation, named Daisaku Ikeda, is included among the
believers in Nichiren Daishonin!" - in the "Preface" undersigned by
"Nittatsu. The Sixty-sixth High Priest. Nichiren Shoshu"; August 1,
1961. Fujinomiya, Japan.
"Lectures on Buddhism by Daisaku Ikeda" book; The Sokagakkai, copyright
1962 by the Seikyo Press.
Now, please go somewhere and Get A Life, or at least go get a new suit
of clothes from either "The Mens Wearhouse", or in your old sissified
case, you go to "The Dress Barn", DJuhl FooL! ROTFL.
Cody
Taisaku, aka Daisaku, Ikeda convinced millions of people to abandon True
Buddhism. This ain't cool, Stoney.
Cody
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
**Reference - The Imagery of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra website:
<http://www.gakkaionline.net/Imagery/Nam.html>
[Robek] >>> Terry Ruby? <<<
---------------------------------------------------------------
RC replies: "Yes," that's his & his wife's website; and, most
importantly, the information that's on there it is really correct.
That's one of the reasons why old Stoney (me) knows/ knew and told you
that what you've been saying/ posting re. "Nan-mu" is really so
INcorect, "Robek" FooL! - sez "Mr. T." LOL.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2006, 2:14pm (CST-2)
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
My reaction to "Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo":
Nichiren only mentioned 5 character and 7 character Daimoku, never 6.
The character Nan alone would mean south, not Namah/ Namas/ Namo.
Nichiren repeatedly wrote that Nan-Mu or Namu is a Sanskrit word, not
Chinese. The Chinese word for Namah, Onyumi reading, I think is Kimyo.
So Nan-Myoho-Renge-Kyo would mean "South Wondrous Dharma Lotus Flower
Sutra". <<< #1.
2). RC comments: See #1 above -- your own confusion is because, all of
the foreign words
in the Japanese to English translation above, INcluding the names of the
Chinese Buddhists and the title of the Gosho, are written to sound/ be
pronounced in Japanese NOT Chinese -- "Namu", "Keishu" & "Kimyo" are all
Japanese, "if you please"! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Robek
quote:
"Question: Is it possible, without understanding the meaning of the
Lotus Sutra, but merely by chanting the five or seven characters of
Namu-myoho-renge-kyo once a day, once a month, or simply once a year,
once a decade, or once in a lifetime, to avoid being drawn into trivial
or serious acts of evil, to escape falling into the four evil paths, and
instead to eventually reach the stage of non-regression? Answer: Yes, it
is." -- The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra <<< #3.
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 above -- The Daishonin/ True Buddha
apparently was so enlightened to the Truth that He decided or realized
in His infinite wisdom that (Jap.) "Namu" or "Nam" is/ was the best &
most correct pronunciation of those first or top "two [2] main Chinese
characters" on His Gohonzon for everyone who ever lives to chant or
recite/ say It correctly -- the seven (7) charactered Daimoku of the
Lotus Sutra, period.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Kanji
On'yomi (Chinese reading)
Sino-Japanese reading, is a Japanese approximation of the Chinese
pronunciation of the character at the time it was introduced. Some kanji
were introduced from different parts of China at different times, and so
have multiple on'yomi, and often multiple meanings. Kanji invented in
Japan would not normally be expected to have on'yomi, but there are
kun'yomi hataraku and the on'yomi dÅ , and è…º 'gland', which
has only the on'yomi sen.
Generally, on'yomi are classified into four types:
* Go-on (literally Wu sound) readings, from the
pronunciation of the Wu region (in the vicinity of modern Shanghai),
during the 5th and 6th centuries.
* Kan-on (literally Han sound) readings, from
the pronunciation during the Tang Dynasty in the 7th to 9th centuries,
primarily from the standard speech of the capital, Chang'an.
from the pronunciations of later dynasties, such as the Song and Ming,
covers all readings adopted from the Heian era to the Edo period
RC comments: First of all, what you have apparently copied from a source
that you did NOT name is con-fusing from the very beginning; and
secondly, it does NOT name all of the "four types" or periods of what it
calls "on'yomi." Since it really does NOT do anything to help you (all)
with anything to do with the subject/ topic of this discussion -
"Daimoku pronunciation", I would suggest that you just disregard it, Mr
Robek.
Reginald Carpenter
Re. the sentence in the second (2nd) paragraph, it is changed to read/
say that,
"... Hiragana and katakana do NOT have a separate symbol for ANY other
consonant letter by itself." Made correction below and reposted the
entire message. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
****************************************************** Re: Daimoku
pronunciation; was Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 5:47pm (CST+1)
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
Re: Daimoku pronunciation; was Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 3:54pm (CDT-2) From: dere...@netscape.net
Hugo Urquiza wrote:
Can be a typo? I will ask my priest anyway, in a couple of weeks.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Nan is a
literal romanisation of the hiragana or katakana. It is pronounced nam
because it is a contraction of namu followed by myo, which is a bilabial
nasal. >>> Hiragana and katakana do not have a separate symbol for "m"
by itself. <<< #1.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 1). RC
comments: Well, just when are "you people" (Mark Porter) going to just
Stop over-analysing it & giving it your Occidental/ Western European
linguistic explanations & interpretations about this Oriental/ Eastern
language & religion?! Answer - Never Happen! LOL.
It could be just an oversight on your part, or that you
don't know, or neglected to say/ write the simple fact/ truth that both
"Hiragana and Katakana do NOT have a separate symbol for ANY other
consonant letter by itself" either, "DJuhl" FOOL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sat, Nov 4, 2006, 2:48pm (CST+7)
From: not...@msn.org (Cody)
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2006, 9:52pm (CST-2) From: dere...@netscape.net
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
8). RC replies: See #s 3 & 6 above. Oh, please Stop your alibi-ing &
LYING, and don't even try make your CON job phony "disclaimers" work on
"Alex" & Arbn readers like old Stoney (me) who know you better than
that, and that you are a PAID employee & NSHokkeko member of that old
NaSTy-ass so called Nichiren Shoshu that really does NOT "respect" and
HATES anybody's "right to choose what religion they want to practice" if
it is NOT the so called Nichiren Shoshu, especially if they were
EXCOMMUNICATED from the NS religion and they've chosen to still practice
NDB - Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism with "another's" religious group
"such as [the] Nichiren Shu, Shoshinkai or the SGI":
quoted:
"Members of the Minobu school of the Nichiren sect chant daimoku. They
have the Gosho. Their recitation of the sutra also includes the Hoben
and Juryo chapters. And, in the Shoshinkai, which consists of ex-priests
of Nichiren Shoshu, the portions of the sutra they recite and the
daimoku that they chant are identical to the practice we observe. Though
their religion may seem the same as ours, they lack the single, unbroken
Heritage of the Law received directly from Nichiren Daishonin. If one's
faith is not based on this line of inheritance, it is worthless to
embrace any Gohonzon, for no benefit will be forthcoming. That is to
say, 'Without the lifeblood of faith, it would be useless to embrace the
Lotus Sutra.'" SGI President Daisaku Ikeda, _Buddhism in Action_, vol.
3, p. 254 <<< #1.
Derek Juhl
--------------------------------------------------------------- 1). RC
Arbn mentor. LOL.
Pray tell, just when in the H-e-l-l are you going to get
some new material since the stuff that you keep on reposting from over
forty (40) years ago in the last century, over & over again is just as
old, played out & worn out as a "Robert Hall" suit is in your "straight"
But, since you insist on playing such childish games with
all that non-sense, then we really must quote from an even older book if
doing that is so true and valid to you, then so is this below that
reads/ says that:
"To meet a master of propagation (a Leader of Kosen-rufu) is, in any
age, very difficult. How happy and fortunate we are that the greatest
Master of Propagation, named Daisaku Ikeda, is included among the
believers in Nichiren Daishonin!" - in the "Preface" undersigned by
"Nittatsu. The Sixty-sixth High Priest. Nichiren Shoshu"; August 1,
1961. Fujinomiya, Japan.
"Lectures on Buddhism by Daisaku Ikeda" book; The Sokagakkai, copyright
1962 by the Seikyo Press.
Now, please go somewhere and Get A Life, or at least go get a new suit
of clothes from either "The Mens Wearhouse", or in your old sissified
case, you go to "The Dress Barn", DJuhl FooL! ROTFL. WorldPeace! } :
< { 0
Daisaku, Ikeda convinced millions of people to abandon True Buddhism.
This ain't cool, Stoney. <<<
Cody
replies: Well, in this case, the "little fat boy" didn't have to
convince "millions of people to abandon True Buddhism," the so called
Nichiren Shoshu -- they abandoned the people, just as they have done
many times before with other believers & priests in their sorry history;
and, that AIN'T cool either, Senor Cody.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Donkeylung wrote:
It is pronounced "nan" when you recite the Daimoku. However, there is
the hiki-daimoku, which is pronounced naMu-myoho-renge-kyo. This is
recited after each set of sutra recitations (a set being a Hoben chapter
recitation [and] a Juryo chapter recitation) except after the final
recitation.
The two are not equivalent. Chanting naMU-myoho-renge-kyo as the primary
practice places Shakamuni Butsu ("the Buddha" who lived in India) at the
center, which is incorrect. On the other hand, naN-myoho-renge-kyo is
the true Law, representing both the essential nature of all things and
the oneness between the Person and the Law. (it is more complex then
this, of course, but that will have to do for now.) Because Nichiren
[Daishonin] was the first to be enlightened to the true law, he is
considered the true Buddha.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Robek] >>> This is Taisekiji revisionist nonsense at its worst. <<< #1.
--------------------------------------------------------------1). RC
comments: Re. the comment you made in a previous message on this thread,
now don't y-o-u go there -- becoming "contentious and dismissive" on
this subject area yourself. Because, "what we have here is a failure to
communicate"! - "Cool Hand Luke", classic old movie. LOL.
First of all, "this is NOT Taiseki-ji revisionist nonsense at its
worst," because the so called Nichiren Shoshu, Head Temple Taiseki-ji
has/ had No-thing [Zen] at all to do with that above info in the 1st
paragraph re. the pronunciation of "Nan" or the info in the 2nd
paragraph re. the idea that chanting "Namu ...... places Shakyamuni
Butsu ...... in the center." And, the "Donkeylung" poster apparently
does NOT even know that "this is" just the INcorrect teachings that were
given to him/ her from the Shoshinkai priest-hoods. Because, I/ we know
for sure that it has NEVER been put in print in any English language
material or taught by the so called Nichiren Shoshu, at least within the
past forty-five (45) years, that "it is pronounced "nan" when you recite
the Daimoku." It "Never Happen"ed! LOL.
And, in my previous messages on this same thread, I/ Stoney
(me) have already corrected the "Donkeylung" postings about the
Shoshinkai priest-hood's mistake they have made re. "Nan", and also
already corrected your "Robek" postings about the mistake you have made
re. "mu."
This is/ has always been a very confusing subject/ topic
because, Nobody has/ had really ever been taught about this until rather
recently by the so called Nichiren Shoshu in the 1990s.
So, No offense to you or anyone, but I'm just going to have
to keep going down the line of this message, and down the line of
postings on this thread, in order to try to straighten this Big mess out
once & forever on Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!" LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- [Robek]
>>> The syllable nan means 'north" alone. With the mu, it is a
transliteration of Namah. <<< #2.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 2). RC
comments: First, that is a mistake again -- "the syllable 'nan' means
SOUTH alone," NOT "North"; and, the two (2) Chinese kanji characters are
spelled & pronounced as (Jap.) "nan" & "wu"/ "Nanwu"; so, there is
really NO such pronunciation as "nan" & "mu"/ "Nanmu" -- that's
INcorrect!
Secondly, it is only the one word that is spelled & pronounced as
either (Jap.) "Namu" or "Nam" that really "is a transliteration of" the
Sanskrit/ Pali word(s), "Namah" or "Namas."
So, except for the mis-takes above, you appear to have it correct in the
rest of your message below which appears to be A-OK with Stoney (me).
So, I'm just going to end message here and go to have my late dinner
now. : - )
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
====================================== [Robek] As many of you know,
Daimoku means "The Title" and Odaimoku translates as "The Sacred Title".
This mantra consists of seven {7} Chinese Characters. These are
pronounced: "Na Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo" This pronunciation dates to at
least as early as 9th Century China, though we usually chant it with a
modern Japanese accent. Note that "myo" & "kyo" are each one {1}
syllable, not two. They rhyme wth 'yo'. not ky-oh. Myoho Renge Kyo is
the Sino-Japanese Title of the Lotus Sutra. This translates as:
"Wondrous {Myo} Dharma {Ho} Lotus {Ren} Flower {Ge} Sutra {Kyo}" This is
formed into the sacred mantra by adding two Chinese Characters
pronounced "Namu." "Nan" & "Mu", do not mean anything, in this context.
They simply represent the sound of a Sanskrit word: Namah {Namas, Namo}.
Namah was used, in ancient India, in pretty, much the same way as the
Latin "Ave" was used, in ancient Rome. So it basically means "Hail!" The
Daimoku Mantra first appears in recorded history as one of many
devotional mantras found in a 7th Century Confessional Liturgy, of the
Chinese Tiantai-Lotus Sutra School, if not earlier. Nichiren, a 13th
Century Japanese Buddhist Sage/Saint, was the first to teach it as a
popular mantra. It was apparently brought to Japan by Saicho (767-822),
aka Dengyo Daishi:
"The 'threefold contemplation in a single mind as encompassed in the
Dharma container' is precisely Myoho-renge-kyo.... At the time of death,
one should chant Namu-myoho-renge-kyo. Through the workings of the three
powers of the Wondrous Dharma [subsequently explained in considerable
detail as the powers of the Dharma, the Buddha, and faith], one shall at
once attain enlightened wisdom and will not receive a body bound by
birth and death." -- Shuzenji-ketsu {Decisions of Hsiu-cha'n-ssu} The
Shuzenji-ketsu is a record of transmissions received by Saicho during
his journey to China.
"But when they appeared in the world [as Nan-yueh and T ien-t ai,
respectively], they knew it was not the right time to spread the Mystic
Law. Therefore, for the words "Myo-ho" they substituted the term
"calming and insight [Shikan/Samatha-Vipassana]," and instead engaged in
the practice of ichinen sanzen and the threefold contemplation in a
single mind. But even these great teachers recited Namu-myoho-renge-kyo
as their private practice, and in their hearts they understood these
words to be the truth. ...
Thus the Great Teacher Nan-yueh in his Hokke sempo employs the words
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. The Great Teacher T ien-t ai employs the words
Namu-byodo-daie-ichijo-myoho-renge-kyo, Keishu-myoho-renge-kyo, and
Kimyo-myoho-renge-kyo. And the document concerning the vow taken by the
Great Teacher Dengyo on his deathbed carries the words Namu-myoho-
renge-kyo." -- Nichiren
The practice of Chanting Daimoku {shodai}, while contemplating a Lotus
Sutra Mandala, is called Kanjin. Kan = Vipassana = Insight; Jin {shin}
= citta = mind-heart. It is based on Tiantai Shikan. Kanjin might even
be described as a devotional or faith-based Insight/Wisdom Cultivation.
The mantra is usually chanted with 6 beats, and Namu is sometimes elided
as Nam' {a regional Japanese thing}. In modern Mandarin Chinese, it is
read Namo Miao-fa Lien-hwa Jing. It may also be chanted with 7 beats.
The primary Nichiren Mandala is a calligraphy arrangement depicting the
Ceremony in the Air as described in the Lotus Sutra. There are several
others used in temples, including statues of Shakyamuni Buddha, &
arrangements of specific statues and/or calligraphy.
******************************************************
Re-edited & reposted on 11/06/06
Reginald Carpenter
subject/ title to:
Re: the correct pronunciation & spelling of Namu!*
****************************************************** Re: Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Reginald Carpenter
CST.
Re. the second (2nd) paragraph, that is changed to read/ say that,
"... Hiragana and Katakana do NOT have a separate symbol fo ANY other
consonant letter by itself either."
I made the correction below and reposted the entire message.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2006, 1:49pm
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
Re. RC (my) original posting on 10/27/06, 5:47pm CST+1, I changed the
subject/ title to:
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
*****************************************************
Re: Daimoku pronunciation; was Atheism
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 3:54pm (CDT-2) From: dere...@netscape.net
Hugo Urquiza wrote:
Can be a typo? I will ask my priest anyway, in a couple of weeks.
---------------------------------------------------------------Derek
Juhl wrote:
Nan is a literal romanisation of the hiragana or katakana. It is
pronounced nam because it is a contraction of namu followed by myo,
which is a bilabial nasal. >>> Hiragana and katakana do not have a
separate symbol for "m" by itself. <<< #1.
--------------------------------------------------------------1). RC
comments: Well, just when are "you people" (Mark Porter) going to just
Stop over-analysing it & giving it your Occidental/ Western European
linguistic explanations & interpretations about this Oriental/ Eastern
language & religion?! Answer - Never Happen! LOL.
It could be just an oversight on your part, or that you
don't know, or neglected to say/ write the simple fact/ truth that both
"Hiragana and Katakana do NOT have a separate symbol for ANY other
consonant letter by itself" either, "DJuhl" FOOL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
>>> What we chant is a Japanese approximation of old Chinese. It is NOT
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC comments: First of all, your statement is ILLogical &
self-contradictory on its' face: because, first you wrote that "what we
chant IS ... Japanese; and, next you say that "it IS NOT Japanese." And
secondly, you certainly do NOT really know & understand what "is NOT
Japanese," simply because you are NOT Japanese and can NOT read, speak &
write Japanese yourself, Robek FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
Well, that just goes to show you (all) that you're just very con-fused
and really do NOT know what in the H-e-l-l you're talking/ writing about
re. this subject -- Daimoku pronunciation, "Robin Robek."
And, I/ we (all) already know/ knew "from Jumpstreet" (old slang) that
"Mu, not Wu, is the reading [pronunciation] that we use" for the second
(2nd) Chinese character of the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra.
Because, re. the subject, I/ Stoney (me) have already posted the
correct pronunciation & spelling of (Jap.) "Namu" on this same thread as
well as on another current thread, just as I & other posters have
already done for years on Arbn, which is just as it has always been
taught by the so called Nichiren Shoshu & SGI orgs for at least the past
forty-five years or more. But, I'll post it again & again, letter by
letter & word for word, over & over for you until you finally get it
Right, that is, I hope, "Robin"! LOL.
"Part 1 - The Definition Of The Word "Nam"
"First of all, there is a major difference between the word "Nam" and
the phrase "Myoho-Renge-Kyo" from the standpoint of translation. The
word "Nam" originally derives from Sanskrit, and the Sanskrit
pronunciation is "Namas" (JAPANESE: Namu). This "namas" retains its
original phonetic sound, being transliterated into the two Chinese
characters of "na" and "mu." I believe, nevertheless, that the word
"Nam" itself contains a very profound significance. At any rate, this
"Nam" remains as a transliteration."** - 67th High Priest Nikken Shonin
(retired).
**Reference - excerpt from "On Nam and the Five/ Seven Characters"
lecture published in "The Collected Sermons of High Priest Nikken
Shonin: 1992-2002" book; copyright 2002 by NST; page #165.
RIF - Reading Is Fundamental -- the eighty (80) year old former high
priest, who was born Japanese and had been in the priest-hood for
seventy (70) years already and been the head of their study dept for
twenty (20) years, said/ taught the Nichiren Shoshu doctrine re. "Nam"
that "Namu" is JAPANESE, "if you please", NOT Chinese, even if you don't
please, FooL! ROTFL.
"Listen Up"! - Quincy Jones. What you seem to fail to really comprehend
& understand is the fact that "the two Chinese characters of "na" and
"mu" " are original Chinese Kanji, and they are NOT pronounced and do
NOT sound that same way in Chinese; of course NOT!
And, the Japanese pronunciation/ "on" reading of those same two (2)
Chinese characters is "Nan & Wu," but real, practicing Nichiren
Buddhists in Japan and the USA today who are were believers of the so
called Nichiren Shoshu and/ or members of the old NSA-Soka Gakkai
organization and/ or are members of the SGI org. today do NOT say the
Daimoku that way; because, we (all) were NEVER taught to say/ pronounce
it that way - "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.
Therefore, "Nam" & Namu" -- "Mu not Wu" -- is the Japanese "on"
reading of those Chinese characters that we use to chant/ pronounce/ say
it, because the Daishonin/ True Buddha, who by the way Himself was born
Japanese, said/ taught us all to do so, period. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Cody
Bullshit.
Cody
Kurt
wrote:
It's all Reggie when he gets on his high horse.
Thankfully, most everyone up here knows this.
robek
think is the language we use to read the Lotus Sutra. Because this is
mainly a liturgical reading, like the Latin Mass, it may not have
changed that much since the 9th C. There is also an older reading
called Go-on On'yomi Kanji from the 6th C. I am not sure which one we
use.
On'yomi means 'Chinese reading,' it is not Japanese. It is more a
Japanese dialect of Chinese. On'yomi or "Sino-Japanese Reading," is a
Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation of the characters,
from the time they were introduced to Japan. {phew!}. The kanji was
introduced from different parts of China at different times; there are
4 main readings. In addition to the above; To-on On'yomi is from the
Heian era to the Edo period; Kan'yo-on is a catch-all.
Again, this is interesting to me, and confusing too. But it is about
linguistics -- not doctrine, not practice. Sorting it can help prevent
silly debates like Nam' vs Namu' or Wu vs Mu.
Go-on On'yomi: Nan-Wu
Kan-on On'yomi: Nan-Mu
I think?
Mandarin Chinese Daimoku: Na-Mo-Miao-Fa-Lien-Hwa-Jing
Mandarin is a modern reading; Chih-I T'ien T'ai did not read Chinese
that way.The Middle Chinese that T'ien T'ai used is lost. One clue is
to look at the ancient liturgical readings of Chinese preserved in
Japan, Korea and Vietnam.
with metta
robin
robek
know how to read the Kanji. But I see no need to stop our education at
the entry level. These words are from real languages, not some mystical
gibberish. The words have meanings. We can learn, even if it is one
word at a time. This practice makes anything possible.
Cody
> I think?
>
> with metta
>
> robin
Good question.
Cody
Cody
Not necessary. Just like sex, you have to do it to understand it. You
can read about it; view some porno or talk to others about it and in any
language. However, none of those are the same as doing it.
To quote Dylan:
"Now I wish I could write you a melody so plain
That could hold you dear [man] from going insane
That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain
Of your useless and pointless knowledge."
Cody
robek
On the other hand, there is value in learning about stds, etc.
Kurt
"robek" <rrob...@mchsi.com> wrote:
Didn't know your your blog and stds were related.
robek
Kurt
"robek" <rrob...@mchsi.com> wrote:
2 finger typing.
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
I might write something later on Kan-on On'yomi Kanji; which I now think
is the language we use to read the Lotus Sutra. Because this is mainly a
liturgical reading, like the Latin Mass, it may not have changed that
much since the 9th C. There is also an older reading called Go-on
On'yomi Kanji from the 6th C. >>> I am not sure which one we use. <<<
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC comments: Say, "what you talkin' about, Willis?!" - Gary Coleman
character on "Different Strokes" old comedy show. LOL.
What do you mean, "which one we use"?! If you haven't looked at
yourself in a mirror lately, then let Stoney (me) just tell you that WE
don't use "on'yomi" anything "to read the Lotus Sutra," because WE are
NOT Japanese, if you please, "Robek" FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
So, the main reason that you are just NOT "sure which one we use" is
that you are thinking under a Big delusion of grandeur that y-o-u, NOT
everyone else, are somehow reading "Kan-on On'yomi" or "Go-on On'yomi"
Kanji - NOT! Because, "the language we use to read the Lotus Sutra"
printed in a so called Nichiren Shoshu or SGI liturgy/ (Jap.) gongyo
book is a Japanese to English translation written in a language called
(Jap.) "Romaji", of course.
And, it is IMpossible for us to know if all of the (Jap.) kanji
characters that are printed in the liturgy/ gongyo books are all from
just one group/ set of original Chinese characters, and just when and/
or where they all were stolen/ taken from the Chinese culture in the
first place! That's why there is a Japanese translation of them written
in (Jap.) hiragana characters printed just below the Chinese characters
and just above the Romaji translation in the liturgy/ gongyo books.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Robek] >>> On'yomi means 'Chinese reading,' it is not Japanese. It is
more a Japanese dialect of Chinese. On'yomi or "Sino-Japanese Reading,"
is a Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation of the
characters, from the time they were introduced to Japan. {phew!}. The
kanji was introduced from different parts of China at different times;
there are 4 main readings. In addition to the above; To-on On'yomi is
from the Heian era to the Edo period; Kan'yo-on is a catch-all. <<< #2.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 2). RC
comments: See above #1. Well, although you gave/ wrote a much better
explanation this time around than you did in your last message/ previous
posting, you are still con-fused and do NOT really know just what in the
H-e-l-l you're trying to talk/ write about, "Robek"!
As I said/ wrote it before, I say again that you are being 100%
self-contradictory -- first you said/ wrote & I quote that "On'yomi
means "Chinese Reading", but then you said/ wrote "On'yomi or
"Sino-Japanese" reading". Actually, "on'yomi" is just a Japanese way of
reading/ pronouncing the Chinese or "Sino-Japanese"/ combination of
Chinese & Japanese kanji characters that the Japanese use in their own
language. And, you wrote & I quote that, "it is NOT Japanese", then you
said/ wrote that "it is more a DIALECT OF JAPANESE". Since a "dialect"
of any language belongs to and is part of that same language, then
"On'yomi" IS Japanese too, Robek you IDIOT! ROTFL.
"dialect: 1. a regional variety of a language, distinguished from other
varieties by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially: a. A
variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or
speech pattern of the culture in which it exists."**
**Reference: excerpt from entry for "dialect" in "The American Heritage
Dictionary of the English Language", copyright 1969 to 1981 by Houghton
Mifflin Company; page #363.
So, since you still have NOT & can NOT give any reference or source
for your statement in the first (1st) & second (2nd) sentence above,
that is really No-thing [Zen] but your own "Robek" theory that you have
concocted about (Jap.) on'yomi or (Jap.) "on" reading as it is simply
called.
Simply stated, "For each kanji used in the Japanese language, there
are two or more possible pronunciations. These are divided into "on"
readings and "kun" readings."**
"A kanji's "on" readings are based on the original pronunciation of that
character in the Chinese language. Most kanji have several "on"
readings. The reason for this is that kanji were NOT brought over to
Japan and standardized immediately. Each "on" reading represents a
different period when that character was transmitted to Japan. The
correct "on" reading for each kanji depends upon the kanji with which it
is combined to form a word."**
**Reference: excerpts from "Illustrated Japanese Characters", copyright
1991 by Japan Travel Bureau, Inc.; page #26.
Therefore, the Chinese characters, aka. Jap. kanji, that are printed in
the liturgy/ gongyo book may be pronounced by one or more of the "4 main
readings" of them, simply called (Jap.) "on" readings/ (Jap.)
"on'yomi(s)."
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Robek] >>> Again, this is interesting to me, and confusing too. But it
is about linguistics -- not doctrine, not practice. Sorting it can help
prevent silly debates like Nam' vs Namu' or Wu vs Mu. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 -- well, even "Ray Charles" (R.I.P.) &
Stevie Wonder could see just how this is all so "interesting" and
"confusing" to you, and that you are only here on Arbn to infuse your
own con-fusion into this dis-cussion newsgroup, trying to sort out your
own personal problems stemming from your own delusion & con-fusion, too.
That's why "silly debates" can NEVER be prevented on Arbn because of the
con-fused, silly people like you who start them Up because you (all)
really do NOT know what in the H-e-l-l you're talking/ writing about in
the first place, Robek FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
Go-on On'yomi: Nan-Wu
Kan-on On'yomi: Nan-Mu
I think?
Mandarin Chinese Daimoku: Na-Mo-Miao-Fa-Lien-Hwa-Jing
Mandarin is a modern reading; Chih-I T'ien T'ai did not read Chinese
that way.The Middle Chinese that T'ien T'ai used is lost. One clue is to
look at the ancient liturgical readings of Chinese preserved in Japan,
Korea and Vietnam.
with metta
robin
******************************************************
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
characters that are printed just above the Romaji translation in the
liturgy/ gongyo books.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Robek] >>> On'yomi means 'Chinese reading,' it is not Japanese. It is
more a Japanese dialect of Chinese. On'yomi or "Sino-Japanese Reading,"
is a Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation of the
characters, from the time they were introduced to Japan. {phew!}. The
kanji was introduced from different parts of China at different times;
there are 4 main readings. In addition to the above; To-on On'yomi is
from the Heian era to the Edo period; Kan'yo-on is a catch-all. <<< #2.
comments: See above #1. Well, although you gave/ wrote a much better
explanation this time around than you did in your last message/ previous
posting, you are still con-fused and do NOT really know just what in the
H-e-l-l you're trying to talk/ write about, "Robek"!
As I said/ wrote it before, I say again that you are being
100% self-contradictory -- first you said/ wrote & I quote that "On'yomi
means "Chinese Reading", but then you said/ wrote "On'yomi or
"Sino-Japanese" reading". Actually, "on'yomi" is just a Japanese way of
reading/ pronouncing the Chinese or "Sino-Japanese"/ combination of
Chinese & Japanese kanji characters that the Japanese use in their own
language. And, you wrote & I quote that, "it is NOT Japanese", then you
said/ wrote that "it is more a DIALECT OF JAPANESE". Since a "dialect"
of any language belongs to and is part of that same language, then
"On'yomi" IS Japanese too, Robek you IDIOT! ROTFL.
"dialect: 1. a regional variety of a language, distinguished from other
varieties by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially: a. A
variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or
speech pattern of the culture in which it exists."**
**Reference: excerpt from entry for "dialect" in "The American Heritage
Dictionary of the English Language", copyright 1969 to 1981 by Houghton
Mifflin Company; page #363.
So, since you still have NOT & can NOT give any reference or
source for your statement in the first (1st) & second (2nd) sentence
that you have concocted about (Jap.) on'yomi or (Jap.) "on" reading as
it is simply called.
Simply stated, "For each kanji used in the Japanese
language, there are two or more possible pronunciations. These are
divided into "on" readings and "kun" readings."**
"A kanji's "on" readings are based on the original pronunciation of that
character in the Chinese language. Most kanji have several "on"
readings. The reason for this is that kanji were NOT brought over to
Japan and standardized immediately. Each "on" reading represents a
different period when that character was transmitted to Japan. The
correct "on" reading for each kanji depends upon the kanji with which it
is combined to form a word."**
**Reference: excerpts from "Illustrated Japanese Characters", copyright
1991 by Japan Travel Bureau, Inc.; page #26.
Therefore, the Chinese characters, aka. Jap. kanji, that are printed
in the liturgy/ gongyo book may be pronounced by one or more of the "4
main readings" of them, simply called (Jap.) "on" readings/ (Jap.)
"on'yomi(s)."
--------------------------------------------------------------- [Robek]
>>> Again, this is interesting to me, and confusing too. But it is about
linguistics -- not doctrine, not practice. Sorting it can help prevent
silly debates like Nam' vs Namu' or Wu vs Mu. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 -- well, even "Ray Charles" (R.I.P.) &
"interesting" and "confusing" to you, and that you are only here on Arbn
to infuse your own con-fusion into this dis-cussion newsgroup, trying to
sort out your own personal problems stemming from your own delusion &
con-fusion, too. That's why "silly debates" can NEVER be prevented on
because you (all) really do NOT know what in the H-e-l-l you're talking/
writing about in the first place, Robek FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
====================================== Go-on On'yomi: Nan-Wu
Kan-on On'yomi: Nan-Mu
I think?
Mandarin Chinese Daimoku: Na-Mo-Miao-Fa-Lien-Hwa-Jing Mandarin is a
modern reading; Chih-I T'ien T'ai did not read Chinese that way.The
Middle Chinese that T'ien T'ai used is lost. One clue is to look at the
ancient liturgical readings of Chinese preserved in Japan, Korea and
Vietnam.
with metta
robin
******************************************************
robek
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Japanese to English translation written in a language called
(Jap.) "Romaji", of course.
It is not Japanese. And it is transliterated, not translated.
robek
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Japanese to English translation written in a language called (Jap.)
"Romaji", of course.
[Robek] >>> It is not Japanese. And it is transliterated, not
translated. <<< #1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: So sorry, but due to your Biggest LD - learning
disability -- STUPIDITY -- you really do NOT have any RCC - reading
comprehension capability, "Robek" FooL! - sez "Mister T." ROTFL.
"Listen Up," FooL! - Quincy Jones. Old Stoney (me) will try to explain
all of this again to your arrogant & ignorant, very low life conditioned
Dumb-ass "Step By Step"! - old comedy tv show. LOL.
First of all, you "cut & pasted" only that partial sentence of
Stoney's (mine) to take it out of context; but, it's still true anyway.
Because, the "Japanese to English translation" means that the Japanese
first TRANSLATED the liturgy/ (Jap.) gongyo book, aka. sutra book,
containing the Kuramajiva TRANSLATION of the Lotus Sutra taken from the
Hoben (2nd) chapter & Juryo (16th) chapter) of it/ the Lotus Sutra, into
Japanese language, of course; i.e. the words "hoben" & "juryo" are
Japanese, "if you please." But, they are still Japanese even if you
don't please, "Robin Robek" you IDIOT! ROTFL.
Secondly, that Chinese to Japanese TRANSLATION is written right there
in the liturgy/ gongyo/ sutra book in the (Jap.) "hiragana" characters
that are printed just above the Chinese characters, aka. (Jap.) "kanji"
characters, of the Kuramajiva TRANSLATION of the sutra printed in the
book.
Lastly, the Japanese made a "Japanese to English TRANSLATION" -- from
their Chinese to Japanese TRANSLATION -- which is "written in a language
called (Jap.) "Romaji", and that is called a "transliteration", "of
course."
FYI - simply stated, {a "translation" is an interpretation from one
language to another; a "language" is a contents of speech, a way of
speaking.} definitions from a Webster's Dictionary.
Now, will you please try to Stop your drug habit of smoking a CRACK
pipe and/ or other kinds of Dope, and get yourself "Hooked On Phonics"
or whatever it takes for you to really be able to read & comprehend/
understand just what you're reading, "Robin"?! LOL.
Because, RIF - Reading Is Fun-Da-Mental, "Robek" FooL! - sez "Mister T."
LOL. <http://www.rif.org>
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Reginald Carpenter
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
>>> Sad when people are so deluded they do not even know it: <<< #1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: Well, I'm so glad that you realize that about yourself,
"Finally"! - Cece Penniston. LOL.
Because, your DUMB-ass has certainly written & posted some mess-ages on
this thread that prove the "sad" fact that you "do NOT even know" what
in the H-e-l-l you're talking/ writing and that you have "so deluded"
your self into the grandeur of believing that you are actually an
"authority" or "expert" on the subject of Buddhism in general, and/ or
so called Nichiren Buddhism in particular, "Robek" FooL! LOL.
Such as, "Robek" wrote & I quote, that:
(Jap.) "Nan" by itself means North"; (Jap.) "Nan & Mu" is the
pronunciation of the first two characters of the Daimoku"; and, (Jap.)
"Kimyo" is the Chinese pronunciation" -- all "Nan-sense" & proven to be
Wrong, of course! LOL.
And, "Robek" has quite the knack for writing such confused
self-contradictory NONsense such as in the mess-age he wrote & I quote
his first paragraph below that:
1st sentence - "I might write something later on Kan-on On'yomi Kanji,
which I now think IS the language we use to read the Lotus Sutra.
3rd sentence - "There is also an older reading called Go-on On'yomi from
the 6th C[entury]."
last sentence - "I am NOT sure which one we use"! LOL.
And, last but NOT least, "Robek" summed Up his absolute confusion &
mental delusion with his simple "question" where he wrote at the bottom
of the message that: "I think?"
Well, "I think" NOT, "Robek" FooL! ROTFL.
BTW - "The Middle Chinese that T'ien-tai used is NOT lost" -- it's just
your arrogant & ignorant, very low life conditioned DUMB-ass that's
completely con-fused & deluded, and hopeless "Lost In Translation"
(movie), Robek FooL! ROTFL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2006, 1:43am
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
Re: Daimoku pronunciation!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Thu, Nov 9, 2006, 6:15am (CST-2)
From: rrob...@mchsi.com (robek)
I might write something later on Kan-on On'yomi Kanji; which I now think
is the language we use to read the Lotus Sutra. Because this is mainly a
liturgical reading, like the Latin Mass, it may not have changed that
much since the 9th C. There is also an older reading called Go-on
On'yomi Kanji from the 6th C. >>> I am not sure which one we use. <<<
#1.
---------------------------------------------------------------1). RC
---------------------------------------------------------------
3). RC comments: See #s 1 & 2 -- well, even "Ray Charles" (R.I.P.) &
Stevie Wonder (blind musician) could see just how this is all so
"interesting" and "confusing" to you, and that you are only here on Arbn
to infuse your own con-fusion into this dis-cussion newsgroup, trying to
sort out your own personal problems stemming from your own delusion &
con-fusion, too. That's why "silly debates" can NEVER be prevented on
Arbn because of the con-fused, silly people like you who start them Up,
because you (all) really do NOT know what in the H-e-l-l you're talking/
writing about in the first place, Robek FooL! - sez "Mister T." LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
====================================== Go-on On'yomi: Nan-Wu
Kan-on On'yomi: Nan-Mu
I think?
Mandarin Chinese Daimoku: Na-Mo-Miao-Fa-Lien-Hwa-Jing Mandarin is a
modern reading; Chih-I T'ien T'ai did not read Chinese that way.The
Middle Chinese that T'ien T'ai used is lost. One clue is to look at the
ancient liturgical readings of Chinese preserved in Japan, Korea and
Vietnam.
with metta
robin
******************************************************