What would a "Higher Power" be in Asatru
Hetware
appropriate for my life. However, I have trouble with the notion of "Higher
Power" as it appears in various 12-step programs. How might others perceive
this in terms of Asatru?
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
>news:ToOdnV-Up6dBpT7X...@speakeasy.net...
Hmmm...for myself, I would think of Odin as that higher power.
I know, it may sound a bit patriarchial, but I had a great
relationship with my own father who was very much
Odinic in his thinking and in the way he lived his life,
...that is, according to how I interpret the lore of Odin.
While reading the lore, I also came to understand
myself to be a daughter of Odin. It's a very intense
and personal relationship and the Havamal is
my guide.
So, I guess you would have to examine what the
lore and the Gods means to you. Do you think
of the Aesir of a higher power, or as equals ... "the One?"
Is there a deity which "grabbed" you? Or, any one
which stands out in a particular way?
Even if you were to consider yourself as equal
to the Gods, as part of One, you must still bear in mind
the lore...the family relationships and the hierarchy that
exists even among the Gods, ie. father vs. son.
I would think the father is at least one step above
the son. Or, brother vs. brother...first born a little
above and foremost than the second. Or, as that
all inclusive "One," some aspects may stand out
more than some others.
We had a friend, now deceased, who considered
his feet his higher power. His feet were what got
him into AA at the time. His feet bore the load
of all his failings and his misfortunes. His feet
tried to step out of that hole, but they kept slipping
back into it. <sigh>
Anyway, good luck with those group meetings.
Careful, though, that you don't remain stuck
in there.
Take care,
Heidi
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
A good Mossberg or Winchester 12-guage with 00 buckshot. Of course,
there's times when you have to step up that higher power a bit...
AK-47. When you absolutely positively gotta kill every motherfucker in
the room, accept no substitutes.
Likker and guns. Ain't no higher power to be had.
The AA cult seems to me to be at odds with Asatru. Where is it written
that if you dig yourself into a hole of your own making that one or
the other of the gods has some sort of obligation to come and pull
your dumb ass out? If you've fucked up badly enough that you're in AA
or some such, it's up to *you* to pull yourself out. As with the
Asatru "outreach" programs in prisons, I'd imagine that Odin & Co.
would be more than a little put off at the quality of those who
suddenly start calling upon 'em after ignoring the advice on booze in
the Havamal.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Wyrd? Orlog?
Alternatively, your patron God if you have one.
Alternatively, the goddess Eir:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/Heathen%20Writing/The%20Goddess%20Eir.htm
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
Hetware
> On Sep 5, 10:20 pm, Hetware <n...@home.none> wrote:
>> I've attended a few Al-Anon and ACA meetings lately. The general idea
>> seems
>> appropriate for my life. However, I have trouble with the notion of
>> "Higher
>> Power" as it appears in various 12-step programs. How might others
>> perceive this in terms of Asatru?
>
>
> A good Mossberg or Winchester 12-guage with 00 buckshot. Of course,
> there's times when you have to step up that higher power a bit...
> AK-47. When you absolutely positively gotta kill every motherfucker in
> the room, accept no substitutes.
>
Scott, I said "Higher Power", not 'fire power'.
> Likker and guns. Ain't no higher power to be had.
>
> The AA cult seems to me to be at odds with Asatru. Where is it written
> that if you dig yourself into a hole of your own making that one or
> the other of the gods has some sort of obligation to come and pull
> your dumb ass out?
Actually, the programs I'm talking about have to do with recovering from the
effects of other people's bad behavior. This is specifically not for you
drunks. It's for the people forced to suffer drunks and the like.
> If you've fucked up badly enough that you're in AA
> or some such, it's up to *you* to pull yourself out. As with the
> Asatru "outreach" programs in prisons, I'd imagine that Odin & Co.
> would be more than a little put off at the quality of those who
> suddenly start calling upon 'em after ignoring the advice on booze in
> the Havamal.
You don't know much about the topic at hand I see. That never stopped you in
the past. Why should I expect any different from you now.
Actually, the advice in the Havamal most apropos is:
84. The speech of a maiden should no man trust
nor the words which a woman says;
for their hearts were shaped on a whirling wheel
and falsehood fixed in their breasts.
85. Breaking bow, or flaring flame,
ravening wolf, or croaking raven,
routing swine, or rootless tree,
waxing wave, or seething cauldron,
86. flying arrows, or falling billow,
ice of a nighttime, coiling adder,
woman's bed-talk, or broken blade,
play of bears or a prince's child,
87. sickly calf or self-willed thrall,
witch's flattery, new-slain foe,
88. Let none put faith in the first sown fruit
nor yet in his son too soon;
whim rules the child, and weather the field,
each is open to chance.
89. brother's slayer, though seen on the highway,
half burned house, or horse too swift --
be never so trustful as these to trust.
90. Like the love of women whose thoughts are lies
is the driving un-roughshod o'er slippery ice
of a two year old, ill-tamed and gay;
or in a wild wind steering a helmless ship,
or the lame catching reindeer in the rime-thawed fell.
...
111. 'Tis time to speak from the Sage's Seat;
hard by the Well of Weird
I saw and was silent, I saw and pondered,
I listened to the speech of men.
112. I counsel thee, Stray-Singer, accept my counsels,
they will be thy boon if thou obey'st them,
they will work thy weal if thou win'st them:
rise never at nighttime, except thou art spying
or seekest a spot without.
113. I counsel thee, Stray-Singer, accept my counsels,
they will be thy boon if thou obey'st them,
they will work thy weal if thou win'st them:
thou shalt never sleep in the arms of a sorceress,
lest she should lock thy limbs;
114. So shall she charm that thou shalt not heed
the council, or words of the king,
nor care for thy food, or the joys of mankind,
but fall into sorrowful sleep.
Hetware
> Hetware wrote:
>> I've attended a few Al-Anon and ACA meetings lately. The general idea
>> seems
>> appropriate for my life. However, I have trouble with the notion of
>> "Higher
>> Power" as it appears in various 12-step programs. How might others
>> perceive this in terms of Asatru?
>
> Wyrd? Orlog?
Kind of a Norse Darma, I guess.
> Alternatively, your patron God if you have one.
> Alternatively, the goddess Eir:
>
http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/Heathen%20Writing/The%20Goddess%20Eir.htm
>
It seems to me, the collective wisdom of the hall and the collective support
of The Powers. So in our case, it should be "Higher Powers". I tend to
look to that aspect of the Universe touched upon in the first chapters of
_Road to Reality_ by Penrose. That is, the nexus where mathematical
ideology, the Laws of Nature, consciousness, Necessary Truths and questions
of morality converge. But I guess that puts us back at Darma.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>> Alternatively, your patron God if you have one.
>> Alternatively, the goddess Eir:
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/Heathen%20Writing/The%20Goddess%20Eir.htm
>>
> Hetware wrote:
> It seems to me, the collective wisdom of the hall and the collective
> support
> of The Powers. So in our case, it should be "Higher Powers".
Havamal
146. I know those spells which a ruler's wife doesn't know,
nor any man's son;
"help" one is called,
and that will help you
against accusations and sorrows
and every sort of anxiety.
It seems to me that when it comes to
asking for help or offering help, humans
don't always know how to go about it.
So, I think that the "collective wisdom" of the
"Higher Powers" may be far more useful.
I find the Eddas immensely inspirational.
There's lots of useful information, great examples,
and many lessons to be learned from them.
Much good luck on your journey to recovery!
May you succeed!
Heidi
Hetware
149. A fourth I know: if men make fast
in chains the joints of my limbs,
when I sing that song which shall set me free,
spring the fetters from hands and feet.
Not what you might have expected of me, but she is pretty, isn't she? Don't
worry, it won't last much longer . . . I hope.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
>Hetware quoted:
> 149. A fourth I know: if men make fast
> in chains the joints of my limbs,
> when I sing that song which shall set me free,
> spring the fetters from hands and feet.
>
> Not what you might have expected of me,
... a wish to be free of fetters comes as no
surprise to me.
>but she is pretty, isn't she?
Yes, she is.
>Don't worry, it won't last much longer . . . I hope.
Well...she does carry an awfully huge gunnysack
of problems that is weighing her down. If she manages
to lose it, she could be a keeper. But, remember,
her gunnysack is not yours to carry! *She* has to
empty that load, lighten up her own burden.
Another thing for you to ponder. The Wyrd Sisters
cast their netting over you. It stretches far and wide,
high and low. Most people will not stretch out to reach
those boundaries. They will not test their limits, despite
having been given everything necessary to lead an
enriching and fullfilling life.
They have, instead, found their comfort niche
somewhere in the middle of this "box," they hunker down,
and don't do much to test their powers. These ones
remain in a state of arrested development. They have
chosen not to reach their depths and breadth, nor
highs and lows. They will refuse to fill their box
with their own talents, abilities, and courage.
Sometimes they hunker down because they are
afraid.
All too often, I seen you test your skills, only to
find you withdraw them too quickly. You curl
up in that safe little comfort zone. Move, stretch,
do something! You have a marvelous mind...
use it! *DO* something! Reach out and test
your limits. It is not too late for you to grow
some more and to become that successful
and happy person. Don't squander the gifts
with which the Wyrd Sisters have endowed you.
To you future happiness!
Take care,
Heidi
Hetware
> ... a wish to be free of fetters comes as no
> surprise to me.
It's the invisible, untouchable fetters that I have the most problem with.
>>but she is pretty, isn't she?
>
> Yes, she is.
>
>>Don't worry, it won't last much longer . . . I hope.
>
> Well...she does carry an awfully huge gunnysack
> of problems that is weighing her down. If she manages
> to lose it, she could be a keeper.
No. I'm still looking for a woman who wants children. She is too messed up
to have them before her clock runs out.
> But, remember,
> her gunnysack is not yours to carry! *She* has to
> empty that load, lighten up her own burden.
One of my biggest problems is that her mother simply loves me. She actually
told me that I was "sent by God" to help her daughter.
There is something profound in this:
http://web.telia.com/~u85906673/asar/havamal/havamal.html
9. Happy is he who hath in himself
praise and wisdom in life;
for oft doth a man ill counsel get
when 'tis born in another's breast.
Please don't take this as a rebuff. I'm just observing that we are often
best served when we look to ourselves for approval or criticism. The advice
of others is often worth hearing, but we need to assess it in terms of our
own values.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Foolish is he who frets at night,
And lies awake to worry
A weary man when morning comes,
He finds all as bad as before,
Never reproach another for his love:
It happens often enough
That beauty ensnares with desire the wise
While the foolish remain unmoved.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
(snip)
>Hetware wrote:
> I'm just observing that we are often
> best served when we look to ourselves for approval or criticism. The
> advice
> of others is often worth hearing, but we need to assess it in terms of our
> own values.
Yes, exactly. This is precisely what I learned when my son, Steven,
was diagnosed with his assorted special needs. All the advice from
the professionals I had to examine to see what "fits" and what not.
What is workable and what is not? My gut instincts kicked in, too.
I actually had to reject a lot of what the pros had to say, especially
when it came to their predictions. There were also times when
something didn't exist that was needed, so I simply went ahead
and created it. My focus was on giving Steven the best possible
opportunities in which he could thrive. He surpassed everyone
else's expectations, even mine. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Basically, when most people ask for advice it is to try to confirm what
they already know they ought to do.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
(snip)
>Hetware wrote:
> I'm still looking for a woman who wants children.
Hetware, not only do women have a biological clock,
but it appears men have one also.
https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/news_releases/2006/NR-06-06-01.html
Remember, you are only 4 years younger than I. You're
really pushing it in terms of quality for reproduction.
You're going to have to assess whether or not you
are able to afford to take that risk.
You might have to consider reassessing just what it
is you want out of life. It may turn out that a more
realistic goal for you may be to find a suitable partner to
share your life you without children.
Anyway, you can google for more information about
sperm quality and age. Degeneration of DNA appears
to be one of those concerns.
Take care,
Heidi
Hetware
>
>>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
>>news:5MSdndFLIeJKtjjX...@speakeasy.net...
> (snip)
>
>>Hetware wrote:
>> I'm still looking for a woman who wants children.
>
> Hetware, not only do women have a biological clock,
> but it appears men have one also.
>
> https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/news_releases/2006/NR-06-06-01.html
>
> Remember, you are only 4 years younger than I. You're
> really pushing it in terms of quality for reproduction.
>
> You're going to have to assess whether or not you
> are able to afford to take that risk.
I'm not worried. I'm exceptionally healthy. Not a gray hair on my head,
and I'm in better physical condition than most 18-year-olds.
> You might have to consider reassessing just what it
> is you want out of life. It may turn out that a more
> realistic goal for you may be to find a suitable partner to
> share your life you without children.
>
> Anyway, you can google for more information about
> sperm quality and age. Degeneration of DNA appears
> to be one of those concerns.
>
> Take care,
> Heidi
"Wyrobek noted that these differences in finding suggest that factors other
than age may be involved, raising the possibility that socioeconomic or
dietary factors or ethnic background may also be involved in how age affects
the quality of human sperm."
My diet is excellent, and the men in my family have successfully fathered
children in their 50s and 60s.
Hetware
Something I know well is that changing how one feels and behaves is not as
simple as knowing these are ill advised.
I like this rendering:
23. The unwise man is awake all night,
and ponders everything over;
when morning comes he is weary in mind,
and all is a burden as ever.
23. Ósviðr maðr
vakir um allar nætr
ok hyggr at hvívetna;
þá er móðr
er at morgni kemr,
allt er víl sem var.
93. -- Never a whit should one blame another
whom love hath brought into bonds:
oft a witching form will fetch the wise
which holds not the heart of fools.
94. Never a whit should one blame another
for a folly which many befalls;
the might of love makes sons of men
into fools who once were wise.
93. Ástar firna
skyli engi maðr
annan aldregi;
oft fá á horskan,
er á heimskan né fá,
lostfagrir litir.
94. Eyvitar firna
er maðr annan skal,
þess er um margan gengr guma;
heimska ór horskum
gerir hölða sonu
sá inn máttki munr.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>
>
> Something I know well is that changing how one feels and behaves is not as
> simple as knowing these are ill advised.
Then maybe you should be seeking the strength to do what you know is
right. Of course, even as we make our big mistakes some major part of us
knows we are wrong.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
(snip)
>Hetware wrote:
> "Wyrobek noted that these differences in finding suggest that factors
> other
> than age may be involved, raising the possibility that socioeconomic or
> dietary factors or ethnic background may also be involved in how age
> affects
> the quality of human sperm."
>
> My diet is excellent, and the men in my family have successfully fathered
> children in their 50s and 60s.
One positive out of all this is that you can always have your sperm
tested to see if there is any DNA damage. If tests show high quality, go
for it. If not, weigh the risks. If studies show 1 in 100 will result
in a child with disabilities, there still exists the possibility of 99
who won't have them. In any case, there is always the *potential*
that the outcome isn't what you might expect. The trick is being
prepared for any and all kinds of outcomes. Resilient people
tend to do better than those who are locked up in place, unwilling
to bend, or go with the flow when and if needed.
Take care,
Heidi
Hetware
> Hetware wrote:
>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>>
>>
>> Something I know well is that changing how one feels and behaves is not
>> as simple as knowing these are ill advised.
>
> Then maybe you should be seeking the strength to do what you know is
> right. Of course, even as we make our big mistakes some major part of us
> knows we are wrong.
Strength implies the ability to apply force. Needing strength to change
ones behavior suggests there is some obstacle to be moved, or counter-force
to be overcome. I'm not sure that "overpowering" ones current behavioral
tendencies is the way to effect change. Just the opposite might be in
order. It's almost as if trying to force a change merely strengthens the
mechanisms maintaining the current behavior.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Depends.
Habits indulged are habits strengthened.
If you have the strength not to indulge the habit, after a time it fades.
Alternatively, "fake it 'til you make it".
Play a role until it is reality.
Hetware
72. Best have a son though he be late born
and before him the father be dead:
seldom are stones on the wayside raised
save by kinsmen to kinsmen.
72. Sonr er betri,
þótt sé síð of alinn
eftir genginn guma;
sjaldan bautarsteinar
standa brautu nær,
nema reisi niðr at nið.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
> scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > On Sep 5, 10:20 pm, Hetware <n...@home.none> wrote:
> >> I've attended a few Al-Anon and ACA meetings lately. The general idea
> >> seems
> >> appropriate for my life. However, I have trouble with the notion of
> >> "Higher
> >> Power" as it appears in various 12-step programs. How might others
> >> perceive this in terms of Asatru?
>
> > A good Mossberg or Winchester 12-guage with 00 buckshot. Of course,
> > there's times when you have to step up that higher power a bit...
> > AK-47. When you absolutely positively gotta kill every motherfucker in
> > the room, accept no substitutes.
>
> Scott, I said "Higher Power", not 'fire power'.
The highest power is the one with the fire power.
> Actually, the programs I'm talking about have to do with recovering from the
> effects of other people's bad behavior. This is specifically not for you
> drunks.
"You drunks?" That's a bit of an assumption, ain't it?
> > If you've fucked up badly enough that you're in AA
> > or some such, it's up to *you* to pull yourself out. As with the
> > Asatru "outreach" programs in prisons, I'd imagine that Odin & Co.
> > would be more than a little put off at the quality of those who
> > suddenly start calling upon 'em after ignoring the advice on booze in
> > the Havamal.
>
> You don't know much about the topic at hand I see.
I know what you posted. If your posted information was erroneous,
deceptive or incomplete, that's not my problem.
> That never stopped you in
> the past. Why should I expect any different from you now.
Perhaps you should try posting accurate facts.
> Actually, the advice in the Havamal most apropos is:
11
Better gear than good sense
A traveler cannot carry,
A more tedious burden than too much drink
A traveler cannot carry,
12
Less good than belief would have it
Is mead for the sons of men:
A man knows less the more he drinks,
Becomes a befuddled fool,
Hetware
Doug Freyburger
> Hetware <n...@home.none> wrote:
>
>> I've attended a few Al-Anon and ACA meetings lately. The general idea seems
>> appropriate for my life. However, I have trouble with the notion of "Higher
>> Power" as it appears in various 12-step programs. How might others perceive
>> this in terms of Asatru?
Any of the Aesir and Vanir are higher powers than any
one individual. If you're looking for *THE* highest
power then you aren't paying attention to either the
12 steps or to Asatru. Don't get lost in the noise
of self limiting assumptions. There are plenty of
wights without bodies that are greater than any one
human including unaligned ones like Sunna and Manni,
the enemy ones on Surt's team. There are also wights
on every scale between the ones visible worldwide and
the ones that live in rocks in the back yard. The
choices are plentiful.
When a group asks for increased contact with one of
many large scale spirits, exactly how is that in
conflict with a polytheist view of Asatru again?
> The AA cult seems to me to be at odds with Asatru. Where is it written
> that if you dig yourself into a hole of your own making that one or
> the other of the gods has some sort of obligation to come and pull
> your dumb ass out? If you've fucked up badly enough that you're in AA
> or some such, it's up to *you* to pull yourself out.
Another example of self limiting assumptions that
ignore the lessons of both Asatru and the 12 steps.
In the steps the practitioner asks for help to
remove the cravings or obsession. Exactly how is
asking for help to remove fetters in conflict with
Asatru again?
Almost every discussion I ever recall about 12 step
plans and Asatru has had these issues repeat. It is
very easy to create limitations that make the 12 step
concept ineffective - So which is more important, finding
reasons it can't work or actually paying attention to its
principles and making them work?
Remember that getting past denial is step one! "It
conflicts with Asatru because it suggests that I discuss
my problems with any one of the deities in the pantheon."
How's that anything other than yet another layer of denial?
"It tells me to ask for fetters to be removed so I can
take my own actions of recovery." How's that anything
other than yet another layer of denial?
If you want to go about recovery without the help of the
12 steps go right ahead, but somewhere along the way you're
going to need to deal with denial issues. May as well be
using well established tools I think.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
> In the steps the practitioner asks for help to
> remove the cravings or obsession. Exactly how is
> asking for help to remove fetters in conflict with
> Asatru again?
AA explictly assumes that a person CANNOT help themselves, that they
are "powerless." This is, of course, bullshit. I find bullshit to be
at odds with Asatru.
To my mind, the first three steps are weak-willed bullcrap.
"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable."
"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity."
"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God as we understood Him."
The next two are ok, I suppose:
"Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves."
"Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact
nature of our wrongs."
And back to bullshit:
"Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character."
"Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."
Back to ok:
"Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all."
"Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to
do so would injure them or others."
"Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it."
Back to bullshit:
"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact
with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will
for us and the power to carry that out."
"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we
tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs."
Declaring yourself "powerless" means that if you are to be fixed, you
will have no part in it... it'll all be due to this "higher power."
What interest have the Aesir in those who assume no power or
responsibility for hauling their own asses out of the holes they've
dug?
> If you want to go about recovery without the help of the
> 12 steps go right ahead...
I've found a much more practical solution: don't get myself into a
situation where I need "recovery."
In our society, much praise is heaped on the drunkard or druggie or
mugger or rapist who has crawled back up to functionality. Much less
prasie is heaped upon those who never put themselves, and the people
around them, and society in general, into that position in the first
place.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Sep 8, 8:48 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In the steps the practitioner asks for help to
>> remove the cravings or obsession. Exactly how is
>> asking for help to remove fetters in conflict with
>> Asatru again?
>
> AA explictly assumes that a person CANNOT help themselves, that they
> are "powerless." This is, of course, bullshit. I find bullshit to be
> at odds with Asatru.
>
> To my mind, the first three steps are weak-willed bullcrap.
> unmanageable."
Well, at that stage it's pretty much a truism.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
> scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > On Sep 8, 8:48 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> In the steps the practitioner asks for help to
> >> remove the cravings or obsession. Exactly how is
> >> asking for help to remove fetters in conflict with
> >> Asatru again?
>
> > AA explictly assumes that a person CANNOT help themselves, that they
> > are "powerless." This is, of course, bullshit. I find bullshit to be
> > at odds with Asatru.
>
> > To my mind, the first three steps are weak-willed bullcrap.
> > unmanageable."
>
> Well, at that stage it's pretty much a truism.
Then is it your position that the only way for a drunk or druggie to
turn his life around is through the direct intervention of powerful
supernatural beings?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Sep 8, 2:08 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> On Sep 8, 8:48 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> In the steps the practitioner asks for help to
>>>> remove the cravings or obsession. Exactly how is
>>>> asking for help to remove fetters in conflict with
>>>> Asatru again?
>>> AA explictly assumes that a person CANNOT help themselves, that they
>>> are "powerless." This is, of course, bullshit. I find bullshit to be
>>> at odds with Asatru.
>>> To my mind, the first three steps are weak-willed bullcrap.
>>> unmanageable."
>> Well, at that stage it's pretty much a truism.
>
> Then is it your position that the only way for a drunk or druggie to
> turn his life around is through the direct intervention of powerful
> supernatural beings?
Or aspects of his psyche that he normally cannot call upon.
Depends how you look at it.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
> scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > On Sep 8, 2:08 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >>> On Sep 8, 8:48 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> In the steps the practitioner asks for help to
> >>>> remove the cravings or obsession. Exactly how is
> >>>> asking for help to remove fetters in conflict with
> >>>> Asatru again?
> >>> AA explictly assumes that a person CANNOT help themselves, that they
> >>> are "powerless." This is, of course, bullshit. I find bullshit to be
> >>> at odds with Asatru.
> >>> To my mind, the first three steps are weak-willed bullcrap.
> >>> unmanageable."
> >> Well, at that stage it's pretty much a truism.
>
> > Then is it your position that the only way for a drunk or druggie to
> > turn his life around is through the direct intervention of powerful
> > supernatural beings?
>
> Or aspects of his psyche that he normally cannot call upon.
> Depends how you look at it.
Ah, but that's not how its being sold, is it. If it were, they'd just
say *that.* And in any event, if you are powerless, then no aspect of
your psyche will help. If some aspect of your psyche will help, you're
not powerless.
Hetware
>>but she is pretty, isn't she?
>
> Yes, she is.
>
I believe it's finally over. I could say a lot of hurtful things about her.
But I really do still care about her. She is just too far gone for me to
accept.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Not bad looking.
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show
Hetware
> Hetware wrote:
>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>
>>>> but she is pretty, isn't she?
>>> Yes, she is.
>>>
>>
>> I believe it's finally over. I could say a lot of hurtful things about
>> her.
>> But I really do still care about her. She is just too far gone for me to
>> accept.
>>
>> http://www.speakeasy.org/~hattons/bad-habit.jpg
>
> Not bad looking.
She is also incredibly charming ... when she is sober ... which is rare.
She has several degrees from American University, and has accomplished much
in her life. Unfortunately, she has something lurking in her memories which
keeps her from facing the light of day.
I miss her terribly. I wish I could help her. I don't even know how to find
her right now. She is hiding from everybody who cares about her.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
(snip)
> Hetware wrote:
> I miss her terribly. I wish I could help her. I don't even know how to
> find
> her right now. She is hiding from everybody who cares about her.
<sigh> What a tragic story!
Why can't you just simply find a nice young woman
who knows how to bake cookies and knit baby booties?
Oh nevermind! They don't make those kinds anymore!
Besides, you would probably find someone like that
really boring! <chuckle>
Ah well...out of 3 billion or so females out there,
there's got to be one for Steven! Arghhh...
...needle in the haystack...keep looking...
Take care,
Heidi
Hetware
I changed my phone number so she can't call. I suspect she will go into
shock tomorrow. She is used to me being an immovable rock in a raging sea
of madness. I have always been there for her, without fail. I am not
unreachable - unless she is willing to risk the trip out to my apartment
which is well of her beaten path. She does have a key. If she uses it, I
will probably roll over and play dead. She has me at her mercy. She may
not know that, however.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Hetware
> Hetware wrote:
>> I changed my phone number so she can't call. I suspect she will go into
>> shock tomorrow. She is used to me being an immovable rock in a raging
>> sea
>> of madness. I have always been there for her, without fail. I am not
>> unreachable - unless she is willing to risk the trip out to my apartment
>> which is well of her beaten path. She does have a key. If she uses it,
>> I
>> will probably roll over and play dead. She has me at her mercy. She may
>> not know that, however.
>>
> Unless she uses the Net.
>
> FFF
> Dirk
Well, she used to spend a lot of time online. Written communication is a
strong point of hers. Sadly, the vodka prevents her from having any
interest in using the Internet anymore.
I really have to gain a greater sense of self-esteem vis-a-vis women. That
much I am learning from this exchange. When I have them at a distance, I do
quite well. In her case, she got past my defenses because I was not looking
to gain something for myself. I wanted to help her. It was after I let her
get close that she got her hooks in.
Damn! I hold plenty of strong cards. I just never called her bluff. We'll
see what happens not that I changed my cell phone #, and am working on
changing my land line.
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
(snip)
> I wanted to help her.
Well, I'm sure you did your best.
And I'm glad you realized that you
have your limits. The kind of help
she needs is way beyond the scope
of what you could provide.
I think you probably also learned
by now that she's going to have
to hit *her own* rock bottom which
will force her to make a decision
as to whether or not she wants
to live or die. If she wants to live,
she knows the professional help
is out there.
But, this has got to be awfully
painful for you, too, to know you
have to stand aside while you watch
her go down this awful downward
spiral. You cannot rescue her.
She has to do this on her own
for herself. Sink or swim. Only
she can decide what it is she
will ultimately end up doing.
You'll get through this painful
time, Steven. You've had worse
experiences which you managed
to conquer and you can do it again.
Take care,
Heidi
Hetware
>
>>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
>>news:0PidnaVBUswwzUjX...@speakeasy.net...
> (snip)
>
>> I wanted to help her.
>
> Well, I'm sure you did your best.
> And I'm glad you realized that you
> have your limits. The kind of help
> she needs is way beyond the scope
> of what you could provide.
I have always told her, and I will tell you, the help she need is very
simple. It is called "love". If she would just open her heart to it, she
would heal.
> I think you probably also learned
> by now that she's going to have
> to hit *her own* rock bottom which
> will force her to make a decision
> as to whether or not she wants
> to live or die. If she wants to live,
> she knows the professional help
> is out there.
The one thing she seem to be in denial about is the fact that she is killing
herself.
> But, this has got to be awfully
> painful for you, too, to know you
> have to stand aside while you watch
> her go down this awful downward
> spiral. You cannot rescue her.
> She has to do this on her own
> for herself. Sink or swim. Only
> she can decide what it is she
> will ultimately end up doing.
I don't completely buy into that idea. People can help others. My biggest
problem with her is that I have gotten too close. I can't stand back and
let her go when I need to. I need her. I am addicted to her like she is
addicted to vodka.
> You'll get through this painful
> time, Steven. You've had worse
> experiences which you managed
> to conquer and you can do it again.
No woman has ever had this much power over me. At least not for an extended
period. Well, except for my mother. Now, do you want the1-1
correspondences? Cream cheese on beagles. Cantaloupe melons. Pickled hot
peppers. It goes on and on. Spooky.
Damn! I miss that girl!
Heidi Graw
>"Hetware" <n...@home.none> wrote in message
(snip)
> Steven wrote:
> I have always told her, and I will tell you, the help she need is very
> simple. It is called "love".
Life is not some Beatles song...
"All you need is love...dum, de, dum, de, dum....
Love is all you need...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."
>If she would just open her heart to it, she
> would heal.
...and therein lays the crux: *YOU* think
that *all she needs* to do is open up *her* heart.
It's not like she's got this "on" and "off" switch that
she can click at will. If she could so easily
switch on love, do you really think she'd
be in such a mess as she is in currently?
You can't just tell her to turn it on. She
has to want to. She's not there yet.
>Steven wrote:
> The one thing she seem to be in denial about is
>the fact that she is killing herself.
Maybe, maybe not. She may be aware, but
doesn't care because she may not believe
she has something to live for. Can you think
of some reasons as to why she should live?
Have you talked with her about this? Should
she live simply because *you* say so? Because
*you* want her to? Maybe she thinks she has
nothing and no reason for going on living.
The vodka gives her an escape. She can
escape from the reality around her. So,
why does she want to escape? Have you
asked her this question?
(snip)
>Steven wrote:
> People can help others.
Sure, but the thing is: Does the
other person want the help?
*We* may think she needs help.
But, does *she* want the help?
>My biggest problem with her is that I
>have gotten too close. I can't stand back
>and > let her go when I need to. I need her.
>I am addicted to her like she is addicted to
>vodka.
So, it's all about you, isn't it? The thing is,
Steven, that *she* chose vodka over you.
The vodka is her fix, not you!
>
> Damn! I miss that girl!
She's got something you want. But, you
have nothing she wants. The vodka is more
important to her than you. The challenge for
you is to try to convince her that you are
better than vodka.
From what I'm gathering, there is no reciprocal
addiction, ie. being addicted to each other. You're
addicted to her, and she's addicted to vodka.
What sort of relationship can you expect to
grow from that?
...plenty of other fish in the ocean. You could
always let her know that should she ever chose
you over vodka, you'll be waiting for her. But,
while you're doing that, keep an eye out for
a gal where the addiction is mutual...a shared
experience.
I hope I didn't come across as too callous.
I just get really angry when I see alcoholism
robbing people of their lives, and their happiness.
Odin teaches *moderation.* It's o.k. to get
the ocassional buzz, but don't end up addicted
to that crap! Sigh...
Anyway, Steven, you need to keep your wits
about you. Stay sober, excercise and eat
nutritious meals, even if you have to cook them
yourself. You've got family, friends, nieces
and nephews. They all need their Uncle Steve
around. You have lots to live for.
Maybe you can convince your girl to find something
worth living for aside from that vodka. Maybe a
transation of some sort could occur...weaning off
the vodka and finding a worthwhile life activity to
replace it.
I dunno...you know more about her than I.
You've probably tried all the trick out there.
<sigh>
Heidi