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Greek gods need prayer?
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scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 5, 2012, 12:07:42 AM4/5/12
to
A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
years ago, or is it a modern invention?
trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
years ago, or is it a modern invention?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Apr 5, 2012, 1:51:34 AM4/5/12
to
--
FFF
Dirk
Full Spectrum Praxis : ZERO STATE : http://zerostate.net
Doug Freyburger
Apr 5, 2012, 11:03:59 AM4/5/12
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Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
>> trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
>> has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
>> stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
>> years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
Not in any of ours that I've seen either. The Aesir, Vanir and allied
> scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
>> trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
>> has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
>> stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
>> years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
wights like us and like our efforts. Odin harvests our warriors for his
Ragnarok project so they do consider us a resource. But they existed
before humanity and will exist after we go extinct so they can't need us
in that sense.
Consider it in terms of comparative myths. The JCI myths depict their
deity as outside of existance creating existance. Does not need
humanity. Our myths depict our deities as inside of existance
participating in and effecting existance. Need neither the dinosaurs
nor humanity. But if they depict our deities as needing humanity then
they suggest that our deities are human constructs. Maybe they are but
that's not how our own myths depict them.
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 5, 2012, 6:00:01 PM4/5/12
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Primeval gods from all over the world derive power from the smoke of burning fat. That is the nature of the burnt offering. However, in most religious cultures the serious worshiper is expected to burn the fat and cartilage from the animals. The Old Testament, the Greek gods, the Egyptians, etc. seemed to require burnt sacrifices. Yaweh himself says that he likes the smell of burnt flesh.
Festivals very often center on a burnt sacrifice that almost inevitably is restricted to the fat and cartilage from the animal. The muscle and other meaty parts of the flesh are divided among the priests. However, the fat and gristle (i.e., cartilage) is burnt, supposedly because the gods prefer it to the muscle of the animal.
The rituals seem to indicate that the gods like fat over protein. Cartilage, unlike bone, contains a large amount of fat.
Cynics and nonbelievers often claim that the priests decided on this, not the gods. There is a conjecture that the priests burn the fat and cartilage because they want the meat. Another conjecture is that the fat was burned to attract followers.
Burning fat smells really nice to human mortals. Burning muscle smells badly, because of the high amount of protein in the muscle. Proteins often contain sulfur and nitrogen. Therefore, when burnt a protein produces sulfur dioxide and ammonia. So the burning sacrifices produce a nice smell in the air. It also raises peoples appetites. So if you want to bring people in, burn fat.
An exception sometimes have to be made for gods that were originally ghosts. Gods who were ghosts often require some type of blood sacrifice. The blood presumably gives them the ability to manifest.
For instance, sacrifices to elves that live in the burial mounds were sometimes made by drenching the mound in blood. The elves that live in the burial grounds are ghosts.
Ancient Greek seances often involved letting the blood from a butchered animals flow into water. Ghosts in Greek mythology are often pictured as wanting blood. Presumably, the blood gives the ghosts a little life that they need to become tangible.
Sometimes, wine replaces blood when calling up ghost/gods. The Sacrament of Jesus and the cup of Elijah are both meant to give the ghost the ability to manifest.
The idea that belief gives the gods power is rather recent. I think this is basically a secular idea. Usually, the gods need more tangible food to manifest. It can be smoke from burnt offerings, blood from a butchered animal, or anything else. However, gods generally didn't feed on "belief".
In the Titan movies that you are speaking about, are you sure the gods are weak because of lack of belief?
The effect of belief may indirect. Maybe they aren't receiving their burnt sacrifices, or their blood sacrifices, because their worshipers no longer offer sacrifices. Maybe when there is death and destruction, people offer more burnt sacrifices to Hades then to Zeus. Then, Zeus would be weak and Hades strong.
rbowman
Apr 5, 2012, 11:00:15 PM4/5/12
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scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 6, 2012, 12:14:52 AM4/6/12
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On Apr 5, 4:00 pm, drosen0...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In the Titan movies that you are speaking about, are you sure the gods are weak because of lack of belief?
Not lack of belief... lack of prayer/veneration. Humanity stops
> In the Titan movies that you are speaking about, are you sure the gods are weak because of lack of belief?
praying to the Olympians; their power wanes. But the humans still
believe; they just don't much like or respect the gods anymore, since
they have proven to be kinda dicks. So in "Clash" (the remake), Zeus
has Hades go smack humanity around a bit to remind mankind that the
gods demand veneration.
Hades, on the other hand, has not had humans pray to him, so he had to
come up with an alternate power source: human fear. Booga-booga.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 6, 2012, 12:09:12 AM4/6/12
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> > scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Is this based on anything from 2000+
> >> years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> > Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
>
> Not in any of ours that I've seen either.
Agreed. but it's recently dawned on me that I've seen it fairly
> Is this based on anything from 2000+
> >> years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> > Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
>
> Not in any of ours that I've seen either.
commonly in recent fiction about the Greek gods (I think the idea was
also in "Immortals," but I'm not sure... the movie was, IMO, pretty
forgettable)
> But if they depict our deities as needing humanity then
> they suggest that our deities are human constructs.
petroleum and electricity, but modern civilization was not built
directly from petroleum and electricity. Humanity simply found or
developed a power system that greatly enhanced our abilities.
Similarly, the Greek gods could have pre-dated humanity, but come to
depend on the prayer of humans. It's an interesting notion, but it's
one that I just don't recall from my admittedly long-ago reading of
the Greek myths.
I know the Asgardians don't need any such nonsense. But then, the
Asgardians are, for all the similarities to the Olympians, quite a
different breed.
The idea was also used in the TV movie "Merlin" some years back, if I
remember correctly, where humanity turns its back on Queen Mab, and
she fades from existence.
Regardless of the age of the idea that "gods need prayer," it's
actually a pretty good metaphor for the reality of the situation.
Religions by definition need adherents to survive. If, say, all the
Muslims in the world suddenly stopped believing in Allah and stopped
praying to Mecca and whatnot, Allah would fade into a tale, nothing
more.
1X2Willows
Apr 6, 2012, 1:49:05 AM4/6/12
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with the main story line throughout his earlier Sandman graphic novels and
given the success and acclaim this epos earned not only him personally but
the whole mythical genre in general, it is safe to assume that later authors
picked it up as well. Which is to say he probably didn't invent the idea
either but Gaiman's work was an engine in popularizing it for main stream.
Excellent book, American Gods. Makes me want to pick it up once more.
Sabine Baer
Apr 6, 2012, 6:19:08 AM4/6/12
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my bookshelf anymore.
Sabine
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Apr 6, 2012, 2:26:19 PM4/6/12
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--
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 6, 2012, 9:19:28 PM4/6/12
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On Apr 6, 12:26 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The writer who most popularized this notion was Terry Pratchett
Never read his stuff.
wrote:
> The writer who most popularized this notion was Terry Pratchett
rbowman
Apr 6, 2012, 10:01:17 PM4/6/12
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scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> The writer who most popularized this notion was Terry Pratchett
>
> Never read his stuff.
If you can find it, you might enjoy 'The Last Hero'. It's about Cohen the
>> The writer who most popularized this notion was Terry Pratchett
>
> Never read his stuff.
Barbarian and the Silver Horde and their attempt to take fire back to the
Gods. It isn't a graphic novel, but the illustrations are a hoot.
"It is better to light a flame-thrower then to curse the darkness."
David Dalton
Apr 7, 2012, 1:03:20 AM4/7/12
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In article
<17b0c03c-6c1b-40d8...@v7g2000pbs.googlegroups.com>,
It may be related to the theory of aspects or more likely
to the theory of archetypes which I think says that when
a human believes in a deity it pops into existence and
increases in strength with the number of believers.
But I think that if such a deity is an aspect of Human
(the species someone of the human species, so like a
collective consciousness only it also contains bodies)
it is at full strength even with few believers.
Many Wiccans believe that their deities are aspects
of The All or The Source. But I, while I think
that The All (who I call ALL) and Human both have
many names, there are many deities that are distinct
from those two, including some who were once human.
Thus I claim that all of my eleven main deities
(listed on http://www.nfld.com/~dalaton/deities.html )
are distinct and are not aspects or archetypes.
It's getting late now (2:33 a.m.) but perhaps I will
have more coherent thoughts tomorrow.
--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)
<17b0c03c-6c1b-40d8...@v7g2000pbs.googlegroups.com>,
to the theory of archetypes which I think says that when
a human believes in a deity it pops into existence and
increases in strength with the number of believers.
But I think that if such a deity is an aspect of Human
(the species someone of the human species, so like a
collective consciousness only it also contains bodies)
it is at full strength even with few believers.
Many Wiccans believe that their deities are aspects
of The All or The Source. But I, while I think
that The All (who I call ALL) and Human both have
many names, there are many deities that are distinct
from those two, including some who were once human.
Thus I claim that all of my eleven main deities
(listed on http://www.nfld.com/~dalaton/deities.html )
are distinct and are not aspects or archetypes.
It's getting late now (2:33 a.m.) but perhaps I will
have more coherent thoughts tomorrow.
--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)
rbowman
Apr 7, 2012, 2:11:59 PM4/7/12
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David Dalton wrote:
> It's getting late now (2:33 a.m.) but perhaps I will
> have more coherent thoughts tomorrow.
>
Doubt it.
> It's getting late now (2:33 a.m.) but perhaps I will
> have more coherent thoughts tomorrow.
>
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 7, 2012, 2:36:30 PM4/7/12
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rbowman
Apr 7, 2012, 4:41:56 PM4/7/12
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scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> David Dalton wrote:
>> > It's getting late now (2:33 a.m.) but perhaps I will
>> > have more coherent thoughts tomorrow.
>>
>> Doubt it.
>
> As my 3D CAD programs put it: Osnap.
Not sure how that fits. I'm a CAD programmer, but it's a different sort of
>> David Dalton wrote:
>> > It's getting late now (2:33 a.m.) but perhaps I will
>> > have more coherent thoughts tomorrow.
>>
>> Doubt it.
>
> As my 3D CAD programs put it: Osnap.
CAD. I assume it's like working with ArcDesktop where you can automatically
connect segments that don't quite meet.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 1:57:19 AM4/12/12
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Teachings from Achilles, and Egypt!
Forgotten Gods, Remembered, can be Rewarding.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 1:59:13 AM4/12/12
to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> On 05/04/2012 05:07, scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
HARD to MISS!
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:00:06 AM4/12/12
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Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> >> A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> >> trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> >> has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> >> stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> >> years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> >
> > Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
>
> Not in any of ours that I've seen either.
ACHILLES, SCREAMED ABOUT IT!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:00:49 AM4/12/12
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drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 5, 2012 12:07:42 AM UTC-4, scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> Prayer didn't actually fuel the Gods in ancient times.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:03:00 AM4/12/12
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Your only Immortal, IF they Remember your Name!
Which is why if you ever looked Karnac destroyed so much Egyptian History!
It was a Curse, to deny the God their Followers/Believers!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:03:53 AM4/12/12
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"scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
> On Apr 5, 9:03 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> >
> > > scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > >> years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> >
> > > Never heard of that in what I know of Greek and Roman mythology
> >
> > Not in any of ours that I've seen either.
>
> Agreed.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:04:53 AM4/12/12
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"scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
> On Apr 5, 4:00 pm, drosen0...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In the Titan movies that you are speaking about, are you sure the gods are weak because of lack of belief?
>
> Not lack of belief... lack of prayer/veneration.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:06:57 AM4/12/12
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1X2Willows wrote:
> rbowman wrote:
> > scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> >> A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old
> >> star trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans"
> >> flicks - has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power.
> >> humans stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything
> >> from 2000+ years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> >
> > Sounds more like something based on 'American Gods'.
>
> My immediate thought as well.
Your the only one with any CLUE as to WORLD THOUGH THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO!
"JESUS"!
Helites are but Fairy Tales, which Never Truly Existed, you know that for a
Fact, cause you never heard of Abbadon before me!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:09:50 AM4/12/12
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Sabine Baer wrote:
> On 2012-04-05, scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> I think about "The Cabala"
As taught by the Bae'rs, the Magh, O'Bai's, White Boys of the North!
Band of the Hand/Red Hand/Left Hand of GOD!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:10:26 AM4/12/12
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NOPE, was ACHILLES!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:10:53 AM4/12/12
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Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:12:38 AM4/12/12
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rbowman wrote:
> scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >> The writer who most popularized this notion was Terry Pratchett
> >
> > Never read his stuff.
>
> If you can find it, you might enjoy 'The Last Hero'. It's about Cohen the
> Barbarian
Kingdom/Caucasus/Aquataine!!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 12, 2012, 2:13:56 AM4/12/12
to
David Dalton wrote:
> In article
> <17b0c03c-6c1b-40d8...@v7g2000pbs.googlegroups.com>,
> "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" <scottl...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> It may be related to the theory of aspects or more likely
> to the theory of archetypes which I think says that when
> a human believes in a deity it pops into existence and
> increases in strength with the number of believers.
Your Only Immortal "IF" they remember your Name!
Takes 300 Years to become a Hero, 1,000, to become a GOD!
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 12, 2012, 5:20:51 PM4/12/12
to
On Friday, April 6, 2012 12:09:12 AM UTC-4, scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> I know the Asgardians don't need any such nonsense. But then, the
> Asgardians are, for all the similarities to the Olympians, quite a
> different breed.
However, the Norse gods did require sacrifices way back in the day. The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
> I know the Asgardians don't need any such nonsense. But then, the
> Asgardians are, for all the similarities to the Olympians, quite a
> different breed.
Some (most?) of the Asatru still celebrate "blots". These are festivals where a sacrifice of blood is made.
Some reading this will argue that the Hebrew rituals concerning sacrifice were fundamentally different. I don't think so. However, I will leave the arguing to others.
>
> The idea was also used in the TV movie "Merlin" some years back, if I
> remember correctly, where humanity turns its back on Queen Mab, and
> she fades from existence.
I have told a few myths, Greek and Nordic, for entertainment. I have decided on treating the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement for the gods. I start out saying that the gods consume the smoke of burning fat. They appreciate humans who will treat them to this nutritional requirement.
> The idea was also used in the TV movie "Merlin" some years back, if I
> remember correctly, where humanity turns its back on Queen Mab, and
> she fades from existence.
I told the Greek myth of Apollo and Hermes. I started out this story by stating that the Greek gods have lost the ability to hustle oily smoke on their own. Hermes, the infant god, was exceptional in that he learned to burn fat on his own.
Hermes in this myth is more self reliant than the other Greek gods. At some point in the story, he sacrifices to himself and as well as the other major gods of the panthoen. Therefore, his relationship with humans is more reciprocal than dictatorial. He is more friendly to humans than the other gods precisely because he doesn't have a driving need for their belief. Hermes appreciates sacrifices as a friendly gesture from creatures who are moral equals. The other 11 gods terrorize people because they really NEED the belief of humans, or rather the fatty smoke that believers send them.
The idea of Hermes as a self reliant friend was implicit in the version of the story that I read. I think this was the intention of the poet that wrote down that myth. I get the impression that many Asatru relate to their gods in the same way this poet related to Hermes.
This idea of a omnipotent god who is also somehow needy of belief has created much havoc. It is a common interpretation among Jews, Christians and Moslems. However, I don't think it is universal even among them. However, I am not qualified to say for sure.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 12, 2012, 5:45:19 PM4/12/12
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On Apr 12, 3:20 pm, drosen0...@yahoo.com wrote:
> However, the Norse gods did require sacrifices way back in the day.
Did they? Or did the Norse people just do 'em anyway?
> However, the Norse gods did require sacrifices way back in the day.
Doug Freyburger
Apr 13, 2012, 12:19:58 PM4/13/12
to
Do not appreciate "need" with "enjoy" or "appreciate".
> The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
And all other heathen faiths back into the mythic past.
> Some (most?) of the Asatru still celebrate "blots".
The word means "to make sacred or holy". This can translate all the way
down to a private sharing of a sip of coffee through a big music
festival at a major stadium. Our population is far too small for the
latter but maybe some day.
> These are festivals where a sacrifice of blood is made.
Nonsense. Blood offerings are extremely rare and tend to be so porly
conducted they cause serious problems with the groups who make the
mistake of trying them. You have clearly never been to a single Blot
if you think you'd even be able to locate a group crazy enough to do a
blood offering.
> Some reading this will argue that the Hebrew rituals concerning
> sacrifice were fundamentally different. I don't think so. However, I
> will leave the arguing to others.
As you've never been to a single Blot yourself and have clearly not even
discussed the topic with anyone who has, that's for the best.
One way ancient Hebrew rituals were different - They were mandated.
One way ancient Hebrew rituals were the same - The food was eaten not
wasted.
One way they were different - They did animals not baked or brewed
goods.
> I have decided on treating the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement
> for the gods.
Okay for fiction, but let's try taking a parallel tack. The Aesir are
beings who have no bodies in their natural form. If you'd like to
assert otherwise feel free to offer video taped evidence. As such they
can't have nutritional requirements in any physical sense. Being
spirits what they can get from us is shared experiences. We can call to
them when we have a drink or a bite and share the experience with them.
Bingo that's the heart of what Blot is - Sharing an experience with a
spirit. All other ceremony built around the heart of Blot is to make
that contact more likely.
If you'd like to say it's a requirement that they have contact with
living people to be able to learn about events in our world, that works
far better than calling it a "nutritional" requirement. It's an
informational requirement. Unless they can perceive our world on their
own in which case they just happen to like the company and the sharing.
> I told the Greek myth of Apollo and Hermes. I started out this story by
> stating that the Greek gods have lost the ability to hustle oily smoke
> on their own. Hermes, the infant god, was exceptional in that he
> learned to burn fat on his own.
is there any evidence the ancient Greeks or any other ancients thought
that? It very much seems like Christian PR to me.
> The idea of Hermes as a self reliant friend was implicit in the version
> of the story that I read. I think this was the intention of the poet
> that wrote down that myth. I get the impression that many Asatru relate
> to their gods in the same way this poet related to Hermes.
This is the model depicted in our lore and practiced by many of the
moderns who have concluded that our deities exist. Plenty of moderns
have not made that conclusion. It's not necessary to do so. I've met
them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
cognitive error on my part.
> The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
> Some (most?) of the Asatru still celebrate "blots".
down to a private sharing of a sip of coffee through a big music
festival at a major stadium. Our population is far too small for the
latter but maybe some day.
> These are festivals where a sacrifice of blood is made.
conducted they cause serious problems with the groups who make the
mistake of trying them. You have clearly never been to a single Blot
if you think you'd even be able to locate a group crazy enough to do a
blood offering.
> Some reading this will argue that the Hebrew rituals concerning
> sacrifice were fundamentally different. I don't think so. However, I
> will leave the arguing to others.
discussed the topic with anyone who has, that's for the best.
One way ancient Hebrew rituals were different - They were mandated.
One way ancient Hebrew rituals were the same - The food was eaten not
wasted.
One way they were different - They did animals not baked or brewed
goods.
> I have decided on treating the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement
> for the gods.
beings who have no bodies in their natural form. If you'd like to
assert otherwise feel free to offer video taped evidence. As such they
can't have nutritional requirements in any physical sense. Being
spirits what they can get from us is shared experiences. We can call to
them when we have a drink or a bite and share the experience with them.
Bingo that's the heart of what Blot is - Sharing an experience with a
spirit. All other ceremony built around the heart of Blot is to make
that contact more likely.
If you'd like to say it's a requirement that they have contact with
living people to be able to learn about events in our world, that works
far better than calling it a "nutritional" requirement. It's an
informational requirement. Unless they can perceive our world on their
own in which case they just happen to like the company and the sharing.
> I told the Greek myth of Apollo and Hermes. I started out this story by
> stating that the Greek gods have lost the ability to hustle oily smoke
> on their own. Hermes, the infant god, was exceptional in that he
> learned to burn fat on his own.
that? It very much seems like Christian PR to me.
> The idea of Hermes as a self reliant friend was implicit in the version
> of the story that I read. I think this was the intention of the poet
> that wrote down that myth. I get the impression that many Asatru relate
> to their gods in the same way this poet related to Hermes.
moderns who have concluded that our deities exist. Plenty of moderns
have not made that conclusion. It's not necessary to do so. I've met
them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
cognitive error on my part.
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 13, 2012, 5:08:16 PM4/13/12
to
On Friday, April 13, 2012 12:19:58 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >Darwin123
Northern gods were not singled out. I have read of religious cultures that use "blood sacrifices". The ancient Hebrews had quite a few blood sacrifices. Many of the OT animal sacrifices involve spilling blood. Just read the Old Testament. The mystical rituals revolve around blood. Blood was a particularly dangerous substance according to the ancient Hebrews. Aztecs are another group that made such sacrifices. As I said, I think that blood rituals are mostly associated with the dead. Burning the carcass of an animal is generally part of a festivity around a living god.
One interesting "blood ritual" in the OT involves a red bull. Occasionally, a red bull was found. The priests loads many different types of red things onto the red bull. Then, the cow is slaughtered and cremated in such a way that there isn't even a spot of blood left. The priest watches the cremation while placing one finger on a location near the Ark of the Covenant. The ashes are supposed to have magic powers.
Obviously (to me), the magic power of the blood in the bull is being channeled through the priests finger. The red things make the bull even "bloddier", so more power goes to the Covenant. The Ark is sucking up the power, and in return the ashes get some of that magic suction.
The Greek myths make references to such sacrifices. Whenever a hero goes to the land of the dead (e.g., Odysseus), the ghost clamor around asking for blood.
Several different blood rituals from other cultures were presented. I have no doubt that there is more sympathetic magic in these rituals than religious piety. I don't doubt that these rituals were occasionally bungled, from an ethical viewpoint.
God in the OT says straight out that he likes the smell of burnt sacrifices. This is part of my rationalization for presenting the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement.
I wasn't putting the Norse religion down, or even the Jewish religion. I was striving to make the story flow better in my own thinking. I like to close plot loopholes in a pseudo-scientific way, but only in passing.
It is a little like techno-babble in Star Trek stories. No sane person believes that the science in Star Trek is literally true. However, the techno-babble does serve a literary purpose. When they go into techno-babble, the audience knows that the characters are trying to solve problems in a rational way. The process of problem solving is glorified in the techno-babble, not the scientific facts.
The rational given for Passover is that we are commemorating the flight of the Hebrews from Egypt. However, that doesn't fully explain the custom. We still don't know why leaven was kept away from the Ark. It needs an explanation.
Maybe God has doesn't like yeast, for some reason. Maybe the Snake in the Garden of Eden was merely a filament of yeast cells !-)
Furthermore, I want to emphasize the reasoning process in my characters. I want the audience to see that the characters are trying to reason through their situation. Freyr is using antlers because he reasons that they are the best available tools for the job. Hermes is able to acquire sacrifices on his own, without people, because he is using his powers of reason.
The gods may be powerful in other ways. However, there are occassions when even the most powerful of us should use reason.
> The Aesir are
> beings who have no bodies in their natural form. If you'd like to
> assert otherwise feel free to offer video taped evidence. As such they
> can't have nutritional requirements in any physical sense.
Okay. I have no problem with that. I hope no one takes my story telling in the physical sense.
Brown concludes that the comedic and dramatic core of the story is Hermes self sufficiency. Hermes represents the merchant middle class who were Hermes main worshipers. Hermes invents, he improvises, he even provides his own sacrifices.
Hermes is also the only true friend of mankind. He was born a poor god. He had a single mother who was rejected by Zeus, the father. Hermes lifts himself by his own bootstraps (by stealing from other gods). He rises above poverty to be the friend of mankind.
I don't know what the original poem sounded like. However, it would make a truly great rap song.
Many of these merchants were born poor. They had to hustle. Many of the things they did weren't very nice. However, the nobles were not very nice either.
The "proper" Greek gods in this poem are irresponsible and insensitive. They have the opportunity help people, but they chose to exploit them instead. Apollo and Zeus treat humanity as a resource rather than as loving pets. Hermes is man kinds friend, but he doesn't need us. He will reciprocate sacrifices, but he doesn't mandate them.
I do not know if Hermes exists. If I was cornered, I would have to say that I don't believe there is a Hermes. Regardless, I am convinced that Brown is right. Regardless of whether Hermes exists, the poem is popular because of the transitions going on in Greek society. Some of us are going through such transitions today. So I want to craft my story to highlight this type of transition.
> >Darwin123
> > However, the Norse gods did require sacrifices way back in the day.
>
> Do not appreciate "need" with "enjoy" or "appreciate".
>
> > The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
>
> And all other heathen faiths back into the mythic past.
>
> > Some (most?) of the Asatru still celebrate "blots".
>
> The word means "to make sacred or holy". This can translate all the way
> down to a private sharing of a sip of coffee through a big music
> festival at a major stadium. Our population is far too small for the
> latter but maybe some day.
>
> > These are festivals where a sacrifice of blood is made.
>
> Nonsense. Blood offerings are extremely rare and tend to be so porly
> conducted they cause serious problems with the groups who make the
> mistake of trying them.
I didn't know that. I also misread the word "blot" wrong.
>
> Do not appreciate "need" with "enjoy" or "appreciate".
>
> > The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
>
> And all other heathen faiths back into the mythic past.
>
> > Some (most?) of the Asatru still celebrate "blots".
>
> The word means "to make sacred or holy". This can translate all the way
> down to a private sharing of a sip of coffee through a big music
> festival at a major stadium. Our population is far too small for the
> latter but maybe some day.
>
> > These are festivals where a sacrifice of blood is made.
>
> Nonsense. Blood offerings are extremely rare and tend to be so porly
> conducted they cause serious problems with the groups who make the
> mistake of trying them.
>You have clearly never been to a single Blot
> if you think you'd even be able to locate a group crazy enough to do a
> blood offering.
True. However, HRED wrote about such sacrifices performed by Northern peoples. The draugir (Scandanavian vampire) seeks blood. I don't know if everything she wrote is reliable, however.
> if you think you'd even be able to locate a group crazy enough to do a
> blood offering.
Northern gods were not singled out. I have read of religious cultures that use "blood sacrifices". The ancient Hebrews had quite a few blood sacrifices. Many of the OT animal sacrifices involve spilling blood. Just read the Old Testament. The mystical rituals revolve around blood. Blood was a particularly dangerous substance according to the ancient Hebrews. Aztecs are another group that made such sacrifices. As I said, I think that blood rituals are mostly associated with the dead. Burning the carcass of an animal is generally part of a festivity around a living god.
One interesting "blood ritual" in the OT involves a red bull. Occasionally, a red bull was found. The priests loads many different types of red things onto the red bull. Then, the cow is slaughtered and cremated in such a way that there isn't even a spot of blood left. The priest watches the cremation while placing one finger on a location near the Ark of the Covenant. The ashes are supposed to have magic powers.
Obviously (to me), the magic power of the blood in the bull is being channeled through the priests finger. The red things make the bull even "bloddier", so more power goes to the Covenant. The Ark is sucking up the power, and in return the ashes get some of that magic suction.
The Greek myths make references to such sacrifices. Whenever a hero goes to the land of the dead (e.g., Odysseus), the ghost clamor around asking for blood.
Several different blood rituals from other cultures were presented. I have no doubt that there is more sympathetic magic in these rituals than religious piety. I don't doubt that these rituals were occasionally bungled, from an ethical viewpoint.
>
> > Some reading this will argue that the Hebrew rituals concerning
> > sacrifice were fundamentally different. I don't think so. However, I
> > will leave the arguing to others.
>
> As you've never been to a single Blot yourself and have clearly not even
> discussed the topic with anyone who has, that's for the best.
Yes, it is true. I haven't even been a Hebrew sacrifice. Jews have pretty much discarded the sacrifices. I have actually heard it stated that when the Messiah comes, the sacrifice rituals would come back. This is supposed to be a good thing !-)
> > Some reading this will argue that the Hebrew rituals concerning
> > sacrifice were fundamentally different. I don't think so. However, I
> > will leave the arguing to others.
>
> As you've never been to a single Blot yourself and have clearly not even
> discussed the topic with anyone who has, that's for the best.
>
> One way ancient Hebrew rituals were different - They were mandated.
Yes, they were. I suppose the Aztecs also had such mandates. If the blood wasn't spilled, then the sun wouldn't shine! There is no feeling of equality, here.
> One way ancient Hebrew rituals were different - They were mandated.
God in the OT says straight out that he likes the smell of burnt sacrifices. This is part of my rationalization for presenting the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement.
>
> One way ancient Hebrew rituals were the same - The food was eaten not
> wasted.
No they weren't!
> One way ancient Hebrew rituals were the same - The food was eaten not
> wasted.
I wasn't putting the Norse religion down, or even the Jewish religion. I was striving to make the story flow better in my own thinking. I like to close plot loopholes in a pseudo-scientific way, but only in passing.
It is a little like techno-babble in Star Trek stories. No sane person believes that the science in Star Trek is literally true. However, the techno-babble does serve a literary purpose. When they go into techno-babble, the audience knows that the characters are trying to solve problems in a rational way. The process of problem solving is glorified in the techno-babble, not the scientific facts.
>
> One way they were different - They did animals not baked or brewed
> goods.
Yes, that is true. The Hebrews did not want leavened bread or beer in their Temple at any time of the year. Passover was made a time where leavened bread and beer was not allowed anywhere in the country.
> One way they were different - They did animals not baked or brewed
> goods.
The rational given for Passover is that we are commemorating the flight of the Hebrews from Egypt. However, that doesn't fully explain the custom. We still don't know why leaven was kept away from the Ark. It needs an explanation.
Maybe God has doesn't like yeast, for some reason. Maybe the Snake in the Garden of Eden was merely a filament of yeast cells !-)
>
> > I have decided on treating the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement
> > for the gods.
>
> Okay for fiction, but let's try taking a parallel tack.
I don't think anyone takes my stories that seriously. However, I like to integrate some of the religious rituals associated with the myth in the story. Since modern audiences generally know the myth better than the religious ritual, the addition of the religious ritual adds color to my story. I want to add some color.
> > I have decided on treating the sacrifices as a nutritional requirement
> > for the gods.
>
> Okay for fiction, but let's try taking a parallel tack.
Furthermore, I want to emphasize the reasoning process in my characters. I want the audience to see that the characters are trying to reason through their situation. Freyr is using antlers because he reasons that they are the best available tools for the job. Hermes is able to acquire sacrifices on his own, without people, because he is using his powers of reason.
The gods may be powerful in other ways. However, there are occassions when even the most powerful of us should use reason.
> The Aesir are
> beings who have no bodies in their natural form. If you'd like to
> assert otherwise feel free to offer video taped evidence. As such they
> can't have nutritional requirements in any physical sense.
> Being
> spirits what they can get from us is shared experiences. We can call to
> them when we have a drink or a bite and share the experience with them.
Sounds good to me.
> spirits what they can get from us is shared experiences. We can call to
> them when we have a drink or a bite and share the experience with them.
> Bingo that's the heart of what Blot is - Sharing an experience with a
> spirit. All other ceremony built around the heart of Blot is to make
> that contact more likely.
That sounds to me like a healthy attitude.
> spirit. All other ceremony built around the heart of Blot is to make
> that contact more likely.
>
> If you'd like to say it's a requirement that they have contact with
> living people to be able to learn about events in our world, that works
> far better than calling it a "nutritional" requirement. It's an
> informational requirement. Unless they can perceive our world on their
> own in which case they just happen to like the company and the sharing.
Even healthier!
> If you'd like to say it's a requirement that they have contact with
> living people to be able to learn about events in our world, that works
> far better than calling it a "nutritional" requirement. It's an
> informational requirement. Unless they can perceive our world on their
> own in which case they just happen to like the company and the sharing.
>
> > I told the Greek myth of Apollo and Hermes. I started out this story by
> > stating that the Greek gods have lost the ability to hustle oily smoke
> > on their own. Hermes, the infant god, was exceptional in that he
> > learned to burn fat on his own.
>
> is there any evidence the ancient Greeks or any other ancients thought
> that? It very much seems like Christian PR to me.
I did a lot of research on the particular poem, "A Homeric Hymn to Hermes". In particular, I read a book "Hermes the Thief" by Brown. I forgot his first name, but I liked his book. Anyway, Brown analyzes "A Homeric Hymn to Hermes".
> > I told the Greek myth of Apollo and Hermes. I started out this story by
> > stating that the Greek gods have lost the ability to hustle oily smoke
> > on their own. Hermes, the infant god, was exceptional in that he
> > learned to burn fat on his own.
>
> is there any evidence the ancient Greeks or any other ancients thought
> that? It very much seems like Christian PR to me.
Brown concludes that the comedic and dramatic core of the story is Hermes self sufficiency. Hermes represents the merchant middle class who were Hermes main worshipers. Hermes invents, he improvises, he even provides his own sacrifices.
Hermes is also the only true friend of mankind. He was born a poor god. He had a single mother who was rejected by Zeus, the father. Hermes lifts himself by his own bootstraps (by stealing from other gods). He rises above poverty to be the friend of mankind.
I don't know what the original poem sounded like. However, it would make a truly great rap song.
>
> > The idea of Hermes as a self reliant friend was implicit in the version
> > of the story that I read. I think this was the intention of the poet
> > that wrote down that myth. I get the impression that many Asatru relate
> > to their gods in the same way this poet related to Hermes.
>
> This is the model depicted in our lore and practiced by many of the
> moderns who have concluded that our deities exist. Plenty of moderns
> have not made that conclusion. It's not necessary to do so. I've met
> them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
> cognitive error on my part.
The way people relate to their gods changes with time. Brown makes it clear that "A Homeric Hymn to Hermes" could only be popular at a particular time in Greek history. It was popular in a time when the merchant class was gaining power. Just after the Spartans conquered Athens, the middle class was acquiring lots of power.
> > The idea of Hermes as a self reliant friend was implicit in the version
> > of the story that I read. I think this was the intention of the poet
> > that wrote down that myth. I get the impression that many Asatru relate
> > to their gods in the same way this poet related to Hermes.
>
> This is the model depicted in our lore and practiced by many of the
> moderns who have concluded that our deities exist. Plenty of moderns
> have not made that conclusion. It's not necessary to do so. I've met
> them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
> cognitive error on my part.
Many of these merchants were born poor. They had to hustle. Many of the things they did weren't very nice. However, the nobles were not very nice either.
The "proper" Greek gods in this poem are irresponsible and insensitive. They have the opportunity help people, but they chose to exploit them instead. Apollo and Zeus treat humanity as a resource rather than as loving pets. Hermes is man kinds friend, but he doesn't need us. He will reciprocate sacrifices, but he doesn't mandate them.
I do not know if Hermes exists. If I was cornered, I would have to say that I don't believe there is a Hermes. Regardless, I am convinced that Brown is right. Regardless of whether Hermes exists, the poem is popular because of the transitions going on in Greek society. Some of us are going through such transitions today. So I want to craft my story to highlight this type of transition.
1X2Willows
Apr 13, 2012, 11:26:36 PM4/13/12
to
Quite frequently, I find myself wanting to read your posts but I just can't
slog through the mess your news reader makes of your responses.
Is there any chance you could put some more effort in making them
legible to the occasional observer?
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 13, 2012, 11:26:41 PM4/13/12
to
On Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:57:19 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
>
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
If that were true, then there could be no gods before there were human beings. Therefore, it that were true then there could be no god capable of creating human beings. Because to be a living god, one needs to have human beings.
> "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
>
> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
> Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
That is why the plot device of a god that grows stronger without worship is perceived as an "atheist" belief. Because the god that "needs" human worship is in some way weaker than humans.
The gods in the Titan movies in some ways resembles the machines in the movie, "The Matrix". In the movie the matrix, the machines keep subjugate the humans for a peculiar reason. The people are batteries. It is explicitly stated that sunlight and other sources of power were eliminated from the earth. Therefore, the machines take care of the humans because they can extract power from them.
This violates the second law of thermodynamics. This is okay in a fantasy. At least the director doesn't claim that the machines created the human beings. The humans built the machines.
I present no argument for or against the existence of these gods, God or the machines of "The Matrix". I am just pointing out the logical problems associated with needy deities. If your deities are stronger then this, then more power to them !-)
I sort of like the solution to this conundrum presented in "A Homeric Hymn to Hermes." Hermes is a juvenile delinquent who has learned to be independent of the humans. Because he is the only god who can live without worship, he can afford to like them more.
Okay, the poem is a sophomoric comedy. It is a cheap parody. It is technically a classic. However, it is low brow and slapstick. It caused brain rot to everyone who listened to it in 420 BC.
My favorite type of poem!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 14, 2012, 12:05:31 AM4/14/12
to
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 14, 2012, 12:08:44 AM4/14/12
to
When the Viking's went a Viking, people got hurt!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 14, 2012, 12:09:56 AM4/14/12
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > However, the Norse gods did require sacrifices way back in the day.
>
> Do not appreciate "need" with "enjoy" or "appreciate".
>
> > The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
>
> And all other heathen faiths back into the mythic past.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 14, 2012, 12:12:12 AM4/14/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 13, 2012 12:19:58 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > >Darwin123
> > > However, the Norse gods did require sacrifices way back in the day.
> >
> > Do not appreciate "need" with "enjoy" or "appreciate".
> >
> > > The rituals of sacrifice were similar in Hebrew, Greek, and Nordic religions.
> >
> > And all other heathen faiths back into the mythic past.
> >
> > > Some (most?) of the Asatru still celebrate "blots".
> >
> > The word means "to make sacred or holy". This can translate all the way
> > down to a private sharing of a sip of coffee through a big music
> > festival at a major stadium. Our population is far too small for the
> > latter but maybe some day.
> >
> > > These are festivals where a sacrifice of blood is made.
> >
> > Nonsense. Blood offerings are extremely rare and tend to be so porly
> > conducted they cause serious problems with the groups who make the
> > mistake of trying them.
> I didn't know that. I also misread the word "blot" wrong.
> >You have clearly never been to a single Blot
> > if you think you'd even be able to locate a group crazy enough to do a
> > blood offering.
Samurai,
Aztec and Mayan
Quit a List, really
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 14, 2012, 12:13:37 AM4/14/12
to
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Apr 14, 2012, 12:22:18 AM4/14/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:57:19 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
> >
> > > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> >
> > Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
> If that were true, then there could be no gods before there were human beings.
God said I Am, and Bang the Light came forth from the Darkness, existence Began, MAN was NOT, God's First Creation!
As such do you proffer there is no Deity to any other Life Form, except YOU?
> Therefore, it that were true then there could be no god capable of creating human beings.
Especially separating the Body afterwards!
> Because to be a living god, one needs to have human beings.
Look up at Night, each "STAR" represents at least 1 Solar System, each Star, so prove YOU are so IMPORTANT.
>
> That is why the plot device of a god that grows stronger without worship is perceived as an "atheist" belief.
Gotta "KNOW" God, to Argue with God!
God, feeds on your energy, and has quite a habit there.
Turning it Off, makes GOD try to get it Back, but that only goes so far!
Either you are Of God, or you aren't!
> Because the god that "needs" human worship is in some way weaker than humans.
>
> The gods in the Titan movies
rbowman
Apr 14, 2012, 1:03:45 AM4/14/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several different blood rituals from other cultures were presented. I have
> no doubt that there is more sympathetic magic in these rituals than
> religious piety. I don't doubt that these rituals were occasionally
> bungled, from an ethical viewpoint.
Mithraism was big on blood rituals, iirc. Had it not been a boys' club and
> Several different blood rituals from other cultures were presented. I have
> no doubt that there is more sympathetic magic in these rituals than
> religious piety. I don't doubt that these rituals were occasionally
> bungled, from an ethical viewpoint.
let women have their fun too, it might have given Christianity a run for its
money.
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 15, 2012, 3:52:45 PM4/15/12
to
On Friday, April 13, 2012 11:26:36 PM UTC-4, 1X2Willows wrote:
> This is a complete tangent but what's up with your formatting, Dave?
I don't know.
> This is a complete tangent but what's up with your formatting, Dave?
I have been told that my comments aren't formatting right but I don't know what it is.
On the hypothesis that the reader isn't taking my soft returns, I have started to put in hard carriage returns. However, I don't know whether that really solves the problem. It may even make the problem worse.
>
> Quite frequently, I find myself wanting to read your posts but I just can't
> slog through the mess your news reader makes of your responses.
I will stop putting in hard carriage returns. Tell me what you see.
>
> Is there any chance you could put some more effort in making them
> legible to the occasional observer?
Some people have advised me to use some reader other than the Google reader. When I try to install, I mess up my communication software.
> Is there any chance you could put some more effort in making them
> legible to the occasional observer?
If you want to help, and don't mind the time:
My replies in this post were made without putting in hard carriage returns. The editor is showing me a well formatted message.
1) Are you seeing a well formatted message?
2) What anomalies, if any, are you seeing?
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 15, 2012, 4:31:32 PM4/15/12
to
On Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:22:18 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
This doesn't really close the loophole. However, this is adding a hypothesis to the original post (OP).
The OP was citing some movies where certain Gods were weakened considerably by the lack of human concern, and another god was strengthened by human concern. This matches a belief that even exists outside the movies. The belief is that the gods are in some way strengthened or weakened by the degree of belief or worship of mankind.
No hypothesis was stated as to how the "belief" of other deities influences the deity. Let us consider the Creation story in Genesis. If God is immortal because of the belief in angels, then it explains how he is immortal before Adam. However, it doesn't explain why he is immortal before the existence of other angels.
How could He create angels if their worship is a requirement for His existence? If his worship is required for him to manifest, how could he create the universe? This is part of the "bootstrapping creator problem."
I admit that the bootstrapping problem is a bigger problem with the monotheistic religions than with the pagan religions. If you have only one Creator, then it is hard to see why the belief in the Creator makes a difference at all. The "bootstrapping problem in pagan religions is less of a problem.
Most of the other pagans in the newsgroup have pointed out that in their religion, the god doesn't "need" belief to be powerful. Their powers manifest with or without belief. Some have even claimed that the Creator God doesn't really need belief.
You are not denying that gods need belief. You are claiming that somehow they need belief, but from a larger pool of worshipers than humanity. This does not solve "the bootstrap problem". It makes the "bootstrap problem" larger.
Understand that I am not <seriously> attacking belief in gods. This is partly a word game.
Logic isn't everything. Even I understand that. However, I like to see people logically analyze their beliefs. I am more comfortable when logical loopholes are closed, even if the loophole is slightly artificial.
Furthermore, I think the OP is like me. There was this strange loophole that came out in the movie. He would like to see it closed.
My answer is that the movie did not show an authentic picture of what religion is like to the worshiper. Worshipers generally claim that their deities are more powerful than them. However, I remember some myths where this idea of "dependence" is presented. The god "needs" humans to worship them. So I think it is an interesting question from a psychological point of view.
Does a deity ever "need" the worshiper for power or existence? Starting with an independent deity, how could a deity end up needing worshipers?
Disclaimer: This discussion is for entertainment only. No deities or worshipers need to be offended by these questions. If any deity wants to directly join in the discussion, then His/Her comments will be truly respected !-)
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:57:19 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > > "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
> > >
> > > > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > > > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > > > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > > > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > > > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> > >
> > > Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
> > If that were true, then there could be no gods before there were human beings.
>
> Wrong, go look again!
> God said I Am, and Bang the Light came forth from the Darkness, existence Began, MAN was NOT, God's First Creation!
So when you said "they", you included organisms other than human beings. So the deity is immortal only if certain organisms, including man but not excluding others, remember you. So according to your current hypothesis, the belief of nonhuman animals, plants and other spirits affects the strength of the deity.
>
> > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:57:19 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > > "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
> > >
> > > > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
> > > > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
> > > > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
> > > > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
> > > > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
> > >
> > > Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
> > If that were true, then there could be no gods before there were human beings.
>
> Wrong, go look again!
> God said I Am, and Bang the Light came forth from the Darkness, existence Began, MAN was NOT, God's First Creation!
This doesn't really close the loophole. However, this is adding a hypothesis to the original post (OP).
The OP was citing some movies where certain Gods were weakened considerably by the lack of human concern, and another god was strengthened by human concern. This matches a belief that even exists outside the movies. The belief is that the gods are in some way strengthened or weakened by the degree of belief or worship of mankind.
No hypothesis was stated as to how the "belief" of other deities influences the deity. Let us consider the Creation story in Genesis. If God is immortal because of the belief in angels, then it explains how he is immortal before Adam. However, it doesn't explain why he is immortal before the existence of other angels.
How could He create angels if their worship is a requirement for His existence? If his worship is required for him to manifest, how could he create the universe? This is part of the "bootstrapping creator problem."
I admit that the bootstrapping problem is a bigger problem with the monotheistic religions than with the pagan religions. If you have only one Creator, then it is hard to see why the belief in the Creator makes a difference at all. The "bootstrapping problem in pagan religions is less of a problem.
Most of the other pagans in the newsgroup have pointed out that in their religion, the god doesn't "need" belief to be powerful. Their powers manifest with or without belief. Some have even claimed that the Creator God doesn't really need belief.
You are not denying that gods need belief. You are claiming that somehow they need belief, but from a larger pool of worshipers than humanity. This does not solve "the bootstrap problem". It makes the "bootstrap problem" larger.
Understand that I am not <seriously> attacking belief in gods. This is partly a word game.
Logic isn't everything. Even I understand that. However, I like to see people logically analyze their beliefs. I am more comfortable when logical loopholes are closed, even if the loophole is slightly artificial.
Furthermore, I think the OP is like me. There was this strange loophole that came out in the movie. He would like to see it closed.
My answer is that the movie did not show an authentic picture of what religion is like to the worshiper. Worshipers generally claim that their deities are more powerful than them. However, I remember some myths where this idea of "dependence" is presented. The god "needs" humans to worship them. So I think it is an interesting question from a psychological point of view.
Does a deity ever "need" the worshiper for power or existence? Starting with an independent deity, how could a deity end up needing worshipers?
Disclaimer: This discussion is for entertainment only. No deities or worshipers need to be offended by these questions. If any deity wants to directly join in the discussion, then His/Her comments will be truly respected !-)
Doug Freyburger
Apr 16, 2012, 2:04:55 PM4/16/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 1X2Willows wrote:
>
>> This is a complete tangent but what's up with your formatting, Dave?
>
> I don't know.
> I have been told that my comments aren't formatting right but I don't know what it is.
A recent version of Google has started displaying soft returns in their
> 1X2Willows wrote:
>
>> This is a complete tangent but what's up with your formatting, Dave?
>
> I don't know.
> I have been told that my comments aren't formatting right but I don't know what it is.
own windows but does not send them. Many readers respect the sender's
decisions about formatting so they display as very long lines. Harder
to read.
> On the hypothesis that the reader isn't taking my soft returns, I have
> started to put in hard carriage returns. However, I don't know whether
> that really solves the problem. It may even make the problem worse.
mechanical typewriters. They continue to work. I use Google as a
backup for posting and I've used hard returns when posting through them
as far back as I can remember.
> Some people have advised me to use some reader other than the Google
> reader. When I try to install, I mess up my communication software.
is supposed to install cleanly. It worked for me and I used it to post
for a while. Once I got back to experiencing the results of filtering I
ended up loading a reader with better filtering.
Heck at this point I'm considering loading yet another reader with even
better filtering. My reader only uses single line expressions. It's
good enough for most purposes but a lot of religious spam still gets
through. I've heard there are readers that support multi-line
expressions. The one I am interested in marks posts by google posters
who start a new thread as read. That would blow through nearly all of
the spam and noise I see still.
> If you want to help, and don't mind the time:
> My replies in this post were made without putting in hard carriage returns. The editor is showing me a well formatted message.
> 1) Are you seeing a well formatted message?
> 2) What anomalies, if any, are you seeing?
Doug Freyburger
Apr 16, 2012, 2:17:13 PM4/16/12
to
rbowman wrote:
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Several different blood rituals from other cultures were presented. I have
>> no doubt that there is more sympathetic magic in these rituals than
>> religious piety. I don't doubt that these rituals were occasionally
>> bungled, from an ethical viewpoint.
Much of it goes far back into the stone age. Animals are alive just
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Several different blood rituals from other cultures were presented. I have
>> no doubt that there is more sympathetic magic in these rituals than
>> religious piety. I don't doubt that these rituals were occasionally
>> bungled, from an ethical viewpoint.
like humans, yet we hunt and eat them. We are as wolves and lions to
our prey animals, especially to the wild ones like deer. We tend to
think of our prey animals as having emotions because when we stalk
through the woods we see the deer expressing emotions. So ceremonies
were developed to make the death pains easier for the deer. Or at least
easier for the hunter who kills the deer. You might or might not
consider that the firs step towards sympathetic magic. The next step is
to ask the spirit of the deer to go into the next generation of deer to
keep the herd healthy and alert. It's several steps of
conceptualization until you've moved to the point of giving the deer to
a deity.
But always remember people before grain farming had to eat meat to live.
The animals had to be killed. The choice owuld be to kill them without
feeling like lions seem to or to kill them like spirit beings asking
their spirits to move on. And still the meat is eaten. Prayed over
never did mean wasted until some point long after civilization became
established and then only in the south. In places where food was rare
the meat was not wasted. It was preyed for, prayed over, eaten by the
tribe. Now that we have grocery store food it is shopped for (including
grain products now), prayed over, eaten by the tribe.
> Mithraism was big on blood rituals, iirc. Had it not been a boys' club and
> let women have their fun too, it might have given Christianity a run for its
> money.
learn - They did not write their ideas down and now their ideas are
forogtten and scholars and fiction writers make stuff up having no idea
how right or wrong they are. Write makes right!
Doug Freyburger
Apr 16, 2012, 2:21:55 PM4/16/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>> "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
>
>> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
>> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
>> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
>> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
>> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
>> Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
>
> If that were true, then there could be no gods before there were human beings.
I figure when Velociraptors were the top animal on the planet they
> Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>> "scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:
>
>> > A plot point in a number of bits of modern fiction - from the old star
>> > trek episode with Apollo to the "Clash/Wrath of the Titans" flicks -
>> > has the Greek gods relying on human prayer for their power. humans
>> > stop praying, the gods fade away. Is this based on anything from 2000+
>> > years ago, or is it a modern invention?
>
>> Your Only IMMORTAL, as long as they REMEMBER YOUR NAME!
>
> If that were true, then there could be no gods before there were human beings.
thought the Aesir, Vanir and allied wights looked and thought like
Velociraptors. If and to the extent Velociraptors ever thought about
anything abstract.
> Therefore, it that were true then there could be no god capable of
> creating human beings. Because to be a living god, one needs to have
> human beings.
1X2Willows
Apr 16, 2012, 7:04:38 PM4/16/12
to
http://www.alestro.org/downloads/images/formatting01.jpg
I wouldnt have mentioned it, if your post would not be the only ones with
which I have the same problem but they are.
1X2Willows
Apr 16, 2012, 8:08:19 PM4/16/12
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> So ceremonies were developed to make the death pains easier for the deer.
Bit of linguistic trivia which just occurred to me.
>
> So ceremonies were developed to make the death pains easier for the deer.
Deer in traditional hunter's talk - in the Germanic language group - don't
eat or feed but they "aes". Accordingly, the twig of greens which gets
ceremonially placed between the jaws of a killed deer in appreciation of its
life by the hunter is called "die letzte Aesung", "the last aesing".
Here's a pic of some obvious Austrian or Bavarian fellow and his dinner
http://www.gian-marchet.ch/images/chamuotsch%201.jpg
though this ain't a deer but a "Gaemsi" as we call 'em, a specific species
of mountain goat native to the Alps. The original custom kind of bled over
to other herbivore prey but not to boar and such.
Anyways, hobby-linguist I am, I just noticed the correlation between aesen,
Aesung and possibly the Aesir. Just throwing it out.
1X2Willows
Apr 16, 2012, 8:26:46 PM4/16/12
to
1X2Willows
Apr 16, 2012, 8:39:27 PM4/16/12
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> I've met them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
> cognitive error on my part.
Your certainty and concurrent fatalism are impressive, as they mirror
>
> I've met them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
> cognitive error on my part.
my own experience, or so it seems.
Now I know this is the toughest subject of them all, to put in words and
possibly share with an other mind but can I ask you for some details?
Doug Freyburger
Apr 17, 2012, 1:04:12 PM4/17/12
to
1X2Willows wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> I've met them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
>> cognitive error on my part.
>
> Your certainty and concurrent fatalism are impressive, as they mirror
> my own experience, or so it seems.
If it's a delusion, then it is a delusion I share with a vast number of
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> I've met them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it could be a
>> cognitive error on my part.
>
> Your certainty and concurrent fatalism are impressive, as they mirror
> my own experience, or so it seems.
other humans. Did I hallucinate visits by the Aesir? Usually
hallucintions have some sort of mental flag saying so and these did not.
But they were dreams and they did have that mental flag. Lucid dreams.
> Now I know this is the toughest subject of them all, to put in words and
> possibly share with an other mind but can I ask you for some details?
http://dfreybur.livejournal.com/4800.html
It's a write-up of when Odin showed up and a dream and told me to
follow. I spent a year wondering if I'd made it up or if it was a
mystical vision. I eventually decided I was okay with it being a
mystical vision. I've followed his tribe ever since. If he wants me to
follow him in particular he's welcome to show up and give me more
detailed instructions than a a single word "follow".
http://dfreybur.livejournal.com/5266.html
A write-up on the patternicity issue. Was it made up? If so then vast
numbers of people have had delusions over the millennia. There are a
lot of people who experience the spirits of the world. There are also a
lot of people who don't. Any conclusion needs to take both into
account. That's part of why I prefer Asatru and other faiths that
welcome atheists over the faiths that are theoretically gnostic in that
they expect a conversion experience. It's also part of why I think both
the agnostic and polytheistic approaches satisfy Occam's Razor but not
the monotheistic approach.
You may notice that I wrote that I've met "them" but I only report on
one of them. Some people think mystical experiences that have life long
impact are to be shared. Some people think mystical experiences that
have life long impact are to be kept private. I select one of each.
Not really only one of each. Somehow without any specific plan or
specific mystical experience I've ended up walking with Thor a lot for
enough years that I wonder if it's long term. Thor is always present
to so many people it does not seem mystical to repeort that he seems
present to me. But to an atheist that would also be in the ,ystical
category and we do have atheist heathen regulars here on ARA.
1X2Willows
Apr 18, 2012, 9:41:08 PM4/18/12
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> 1X2Willows wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>>> I've met them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it
>>> could be a cognitive error on my part.
>>
>> Your certainty and concurrent fatalism are impressive, as they mirror
>> my own experience, or so it seems.
>
> If it's a delusion, then it is a delusion I share with a vast number
> of other humans. Did I hallucinate visits by the Aesir? Usually
> hallucintions have some sort of mental flag saying so and these did
> not. But they were dreams and they did have that mental flag. Lucid
> dreams.
My initial key lucid experience hit me in a waking moment, triggered by
> 1X2Willows wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>>> I've met them so I know they exist, but I'll also aware that it
>>> could be a cognitive error on my part.
>>
>> Your certainty and concurrent fatalism are impressive, as they mirror
>> my own experience, or so it seems.
>
> If it's a delusion, then it is a delusion I share with a vast number
> of other humans. Did I hallucinate visits by the Aesir? Usually
> hallucintions have some sort of mental flag saying so and these did
> not. But they were dreams and they did have that mental flag. Lucid
> dreams.
some specific visual input alone. It seemed like millennia of information
got transferred to my consciousness, though the whole episode couldn't have
lasted more than seconds in real time. Also, there was no direct interaction
with any kind of being I could identify or even see, but more an
incomparable sense of "being shown" by a present entity, who always just
stayed out of vantage point and focus.
Based on this experience, I set out to inquire the information I had been
shown by other available means - first and foremost because I pride myself
of being one skeptical sonumabitch - and it never let me down, so far.
Every single detail about this one moment in BCE turned out to be not only
plausible but pretty well documented, the deeper I dug. And keep in mind,
which came first. No freudian shadow or echo here, or anything of that sort.
This thing showed me who I was, and only then did I start to develop an
interest in history, heathenry and ultimately Celtic, Germanic and Norse
tribes. Not the other way around. How cool and convincing is that! :-D
>> Now I know this is the toughest subject of them all, to put in words
>> and possibly share with an other mind but can I ask you for some
>> details?
>
> The I-met-them part or the delusion part?
> http://dfreybur.livejournal.com/4800.html
>
> It's a write-up of when Odin showed up and a dream and told me to
> follow. I spent a year wondering if I'd made it up or if it was a
> mystical vision. I eventually decided I was okay with it being a
> mystical vision. I've followed his tribe ever since. If he wants me
> to follow him in particular he's welcome to show up and give me more
> detailed instructions than a a single word "follow".
> http://dfreybur.livejournal.com/5266.html
>
> A write-up on the patternicity issue. Was it made up? If so then
> vast numbers of people have had delusions over the millennia. There
> are a lot of people who experience the spirits of the world. There
> are also a lot of people who don't. Any conclusion needs to take
> both into account. That's part of why I prefer Asatru and other
> faiths that welcome atheists over the faiths that are theoretically
> gnostic in that they expect a conversion experience. It's also part
> of why I think both the agnostic and polytheistic approaches satisfy
> Occam's Razor but not the monotheistic approach.
> You may notice that I wrote that I've met "them" but I only report on
> one of them. Some people think mystical experiences that have life
> long impact are to be shared. Some people think mystical experiences
> that have life long impact are to be kept private. I select one of
> each.
me, was not one of a kind. He or she (felt more female, really) wasn't some
minion of a higher power either, as in an angel of the popular Monogod.
I know, because she commanded me to question, doubt and keep seeking
for the rest of my life.
> Not really only one of each. Somehow without any specific plan or
> specific mystical experience I've ended up walking with Thor a lot for
> enough years that I wonder if it's long term. Thor is always present
> to so many people it does not seem mystical to repeort that he seems
> present to me. But to an atheist that would also be in the ,ystical
> category and we do have atheist heathen regulars here on ARA.
drose...@yahoo.com
Apr 19, 2012, 11:26:24 AM4/19/12
to
Doug Freyburger
Apr 19, 2012, 4:10:52 PM4/19/12
to
1X2Willows wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> If it's a delusion, then it is a delusion I share with a vast number
>> of other humans. Did I hallucinate visits by the Aesir? Usually
>> hallucintions have some sort of mental flag saying so and these did
>> not. But they were dreams and they did have that mental flag. Lucid
>> dreams.
>
> My initial key lucid experience hit me in a waking moment
There are folks who think having a mystical vision is a good thing. To
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> If it's a delusion, then it is a delusion I share with a vast number
>> of other humans. Did I hallucinate visits by the Aesir? Usually
>> hallucintions have some sort of mental flag saying so and these did
>> not. But they were dreams and they did have that mental flag. Lucid
>> dreams.
>
> My initial key lucid experience hit me in a waking moment
me having a lot of them is not a good sign as that's too noisy. Having
had only a small number I can now say it isn't what it's cracked up to
be. It's a lot of effort to live up to it should you decide to.
Something like the Edison's claim that progress is 10% inspiration, 90%
perspiration. I think he has far too much in the inspriation column.
> Based on this experience, I set out to inquire the information I had been
> shown by other available means - first and foremost because I pride myself
> of being one skeptical sonumabitch - and it never let me down, so far.
> Every single detail about this one moment in BCE turned out to be not only
> plausible but pretty well documented, the deeper I dug.
already in the lore. Some will call that subconscious recalls. Others
will note that most had never read on the topic before and call it
subjective shared experience that shows consistant trends. It always
remains subjective within the mind of the person with the experience.
>> The I-met-them part or the delusion part?
>
> the first
>
>> It's a write-up of when Odin showed up and a dream and told me to
>> follow ...
>
> Thanks, haven't read it yet but sure will ASAP
It's old material to a number of regulars. You're a regular so I
> Thanks, haven't read it yet but sure will ASAP
didn't know you hadn't read my write ups before. I have been open about
my conversion experience for many years and have written of it many
times before I archived it on LiveJournal.
>> A write-up on the patternicity issue. Was it made up? If so then
>> vast numbers of people have had delusions over the millennia. There
>> are a lot of people who experience the spirits of the world. There
>> are also a lot of people who don't. Any conclusion needs to take
>> both into account. That's part of why I prefer Asatru and other
>> faiths that welcome atheists over the faiths that are theoretically
>> gnostic in that they expect a conversion experience. It's also part
>> of why I think both the agnostic and polytheistic approaches satisfy
>> Occam's Razor but not the monotheistic approach.
>
> same here
Scott. Our systems need to work for folks like him. While our lore can
and does depict our deities as beings who exist we need to be able to
treat our lore as completely symbolic. This gives us a strength that
both the monotheists and the atheists lack. We have to be consistant
with the agnostic approach so we are to take into account some of our
members.
It's just fine to be an agnostic heathen just like it's fine to be a
cultural Jew. This is something that took me a long time to get. I
don't think Nik has ever quite gotten it. Reading posts by atheists
it's clear it's something few of them ever get. They have something to
fight against so they fight, never noticing that agnostics, Buddhists,
Heathens and Jews have answers that don't require either fighting
*or* faith.
>> You may notice that I wrote that I've met "them" but I only report on
>> one of them. Some people think mystical experiences that have life
>> long impact are to be shared. Some people think mystical experiences
>> that have life long impact are to be kept private. I select one of
>> each.
>
> There's no doubt in my mind the entity who decided to make contact with
> me, was not one of a kind.
conclusion by my own subjective experience. That second long term life
changing experience I do not discuss in detail I just live it without
discussion. I'll stick with definitely not Odin and leave it at that.
I didn't need to have that second experience because of Occam's Razor.
I recognized Odin without the slightest doubt. I knew mystics across
the millennia had reported a lot of different personalities. I could
either accept their subjective experiences along with my own and decide
to be a polytheist or reject my own subjective experience along with
theirs and be an agnostic or atheist. Eventually it occured to me that
I could reject my own subjective experience, be an agnostic, and still
be Asatru for the values, meaningful symbolism and tradition. It does
not even have to matter if I think my experience was a delusion. What
matters is my actions as a result of those experiences. In Asatru we
are our actions. Huh.
>> Not really only one of each. Somehow without any specific plan or
>> specific mystical experience I've ended up walking with Thor a lot for
>> enough years that I wonder if it's long term. Thor is always present
>> to so many people it does not seem mystical to repeort that he seems
>> present to me. But to an atheist that would also be in the ,ystical
>> category and we do have atheist heathen regulars here on ARA.
>
> Thanks Doug, all this helps probably more than you imagine.
statement that Thor is always present is a mystical statement. To
someone who does experience the spirits in the world around us my
statement that Thor is always present is a statement repeating their own
experience. Asatru must and does function seemlessly with both
viewpoints. The religions that constantly battle the atheists do not
work like that.
1X2Willows
Apr 19, 2012, 6:50:04 PM4/19/12
to
though my reader is set to wrap text at 76 characters. Then again, I'm still
using an old ham of Outlook version, so this particular problem may well be
all on my end. Again, it's just that everyone else's posts display just fine
the way it is, and we're talking hundreds across several news groups.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
Apr 22, 2012, 7:38:01 PM4/22/12
to
FYI: "Cabin in the Woods" kinda-sorta delves into this as well.
drose...@yahoo.com
May 26, 2012, 11:09:53 PM5/26/12
to
On Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:05:31 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > This idea of a omnipotent god who is also somehow needy of belief has created much havoc. It is a common interpretation among Jews, Christians and Moslems. However, I don't think it is universal even among them. However, I am not qualified to say for sure.
>
> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
> > This idea of a omnipotent god who is also somehow needy of belief has created much havoc. It is a common interpretation among Jews, Christians and Moslems. However, I don't think it is universal even among them. However, I am not qualified to say for sure.
>
> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
Gnosticism is a certain form of Christianity that was declared
heretical by the Church. Gnostics believed in God and Jesus. However,
they believed in a "holy ghost" who was insane. They believed that the
True God spoke to everybody from within. The Gnostics were assaulted
for their beliefs by just about everyone. Including but not exclusive
of the early Church.
There is speculation that Snorri Sturlson was a Gnostic. I doubt that
he would have formally described his beliefs this way. However, it is
unclear that how "standard" Christianity had become in Europe at this
time. There was a lot of variation in "Christianity" at this time.
I read a little about Gnostics. I have a certain empathy with
Gnostics. However, I don't subscribe to their beliefs. Nor do I remember
assaulting people for my Gnosticism. I admit to having assaulted people
for my Agnosticism. I am trying to contain the urge to assault people in
this newsgroup.
Doug Freyburger
May 27, 2012, 7:55:36 AM5/27/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>
>> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
>
> I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
> Gnosticism is a certain form of Christianity that was declared
> heretical by the Church. Gnostics believed in God and Jesus. However,
> they believed in a "holy ghost" who was insane. They believed that the
> True God spoke to everybody from within. The Gnostics were assaulted
> for their beliefs by just about everyone. Including but not exclusive
> of the early Church.
When take without the capitalization gnostic means personal experience.
> Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>
>> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
>
> I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
> Gnosticism is a certain form of Christianity that was declared
> heretical by the Church. Gnostics believed in God and Jesus. However,
> they believed in a "holy ghost" who was insane. They believed that the
> True God spoke to everybody from within. The Gnostics were assaulted
> for their beliefs by just about everyone. Including but not exclusive
> of the early Church.
Ask around and you'll find heathens who have met some of the Aesir.
Having met them believing they exist is a matter of observation not
faith. These are the gnostic heathens.
(Insert here usual question of what exist means in the context of
experiences within an individual mind that can not be repeated at will
but that is often repeated by other gnostic heathens not aware of any
reports by others).
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 28, 2012, 1:13:19 AM5/28/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:05:31 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > > This idea of a omnipotent god who is also somehow needy of belief has created much havoc. It is a common interpretation among Jews, Christians and Moslems. However, I don't think it is universal even among them. However, I am not qualified to say for sure.
> >
> > Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
> I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
>
> Gnosticism is a certain form of Christianity
> that was declared
> heretical by the Church.
> Gnostics believed in God and Jesus. However,
> they believed in a "holy ghost" who was insane.
The Golden Calf Moses came Down from the Mountain and found the Tribes WORSHIPING AGAIN!
> They believed that the
> True God spoke to everybody from within.
> The Gnostics were assaulted
> for their beliefs by just about everyone. Including but not exclusive
> of the early Church.
1400's, isn't Early, what so ever!
St. Jon, was 1400's!
They Burned her for her Heresy too, found out it "Was a Mistake"!
St Jon, WAS a "WORD OF GOD"!
But what would "John the Famous", know of that!
>
> There is speculation that Snorri,
Eh what!
> Sturlson was a Gnostic. I doubt that
> he would have formally described his beliefs this way.
> However, it is
> unclear that how "standard" Christianity had become in Europe at this
> time.
Excommunicated for Not GOING TO CHURCH!
Traitor to the Crown, if it Aint the "KING'S CHURCH" you go to!
Rome demands 10 Percent of your Earnings in Rent, not sure how much Mormons or Muslim's demand!
> There was a lot of variation in "Christianity" at this time.
CHURCH, said "NO"!
100 Years war of the Church, Protestant Reformation!
King James Bible, Gaelic refused to accept calling it another Shakespeare Story!
But in fact as it states in the Prayer to Sion, it is Hebridie History!
Zion/Sion/Xion, is the Teachings of the "CAVE BEARS/MOUNTAIN BHEARE'S, big difference between the Tribes of the 12 PRETENDERS, who stand Before Ya, and the Tribes of the 6 Backing Ya!
>
> I read a little about Gnostics. I have a certain empathy with
> Gnostics. However, I don't subscribe to their beliefs. Nor do I remember
> assaulting people for my Gnosticism. I admit to having assaulted people
True Gnostic's, can be Anywhere!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 28, 2012, 1:14:24 AM5/28/12
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Doug Freyburger wrote:
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >
> >> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
> >
> > I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
> > Gnosticism is a certain form of Christianity that was declared
> > heretical by the Church. Gnostics believed in God and Jesus. However,
> > they believed in a "holy ghost" who was insane. They believed that the
> > True God spoke to everybody from within. The Gnostics were assaulted
> > for their beliefs by just about everyone. Including but not exclusive
> > of the early Church.
>
> When take without the capitalization gnostic means personal experience.
mine?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
May 28, 2012, 11:06:20 PM5/28/12
to
--
FFF
Dirk
Full Spectrum Praxis : ZERO STATE : http://zerostate.net
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 29, 2012, 11:18:19 PM5/29/12
to
Liar!
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> On 27/05/2012 04:09, drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:05:31 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
I DID NOT, write this:
>
> >>> This idea of a omnipotent god who is also somehow needy of belief has created much havoc. It is a common interpretation among Jews, Christians and Moslems. However, I don't think it is universal even among them. However, I am not qualified to say for sure.
I wrote This:
>
> >>
> >> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
The Reply was:
>
> > I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
Agnostic Gnostic's!
People who believe the Nag Hammadi, gives them the Right to be Atheists, Hating GOD!
ALBIE and Crew are Living Proof of the Grindel, who demands we Worship Their Golden Calf and Only Their Golden Calf!
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> On 27/05/2012 04:09, drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:05:31 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>
> >>> This idea of a omnipotent god who is also somehow needy of belief has created much havoc. It is a common interpretation among Jews, Christians and Moslems. However, I don't think it is universal even among them. However, I am not qualified to say for sure.
>
> >>
> >> Doesn't mean your Gnosticism has any RIGHT to ASSAULT people for their Belief.
>
> > I am not Gnostic. I am at best agnostic.
People who believe the Nag Hammadi, gives them the Right to be Atheists, Hating GOD!
ALBIE and Crew are Living Proof of the Grindel, who demands we Worship Their Golden Calf and Only Their Golden Calf!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 31, 2012, 3:53:01 AM5/31/12
to
Mahayana as taught by King Yue, was Far different than any other!
He Taught that the only way a Church can Function was to understand "ALL" Versions of GOD, are ONE!
You want to study God, don't kill your brethren because they have a Difference!
Tale of Hunting Strangers even prevails in the Bible!
David writes a few Psalms, about those who Hid in Dark Corners waiting to Jump the Passing Stranger!
My problem is I am "the Descendant who is the Mountain, THE, The Descendant!
Born of the name, ect...
As such by Right, "I" Can, Raise Standard!
But what does the lil fish of d river know anyway!
Jesus was Ocean, Mary was River.
Jesus Blessed the Waters of the River!
The River, is born of the Mountain, MOR "The Creator", brought forth from the Ocean, Behind Zeus' Back!
I am the Real "WEE FOLK" Babe or Badb, of the House of Abraham, but rather than being a member of the 12 Pretenders, my Family are the 6th of the Tribe of 6, "The" Badb Shi!
The First shall be the Last, and the Last shall be the First, Gen 25:2, Num 13:16!
Goat Shirts are Bear Shirts, are Leopard People, are the Bull's who Walk Upright like a Man!
Child of the Eagle and the Bear!
Elephant Tribes of Gaudra, that STOPPED "Alexander", and brought Peace to his rampage!
Descendant of Ptolemy and Medien, Syblien of Alba, the Muse of Greece, Apollyian's of Abbadon!
Covenant of Abraham is HEL, he bought it as Sarah's Sepulcher, which is when he met Kethura, his Second Wife, "BY LAW"!
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