The first legally binding Heathen Wedding in Norway took place on Mid Summer - Bergens Tindende
Wild Colonial Boy
Summer. This is the english translation of the original. There were
two things wrong in this article: I am 34 not 38 and neither myself
nor Morag are members of Foreningen Forn Sed. We cannot be as we do
not live in Norway but we are, as one might expect, very friendly with
Foreningen Forn Sed and we will be eternally grateful for all that
Foreningen Forn Sed have done for Morag, Agnar and myself.
http://www.bt.no/innenriks/article94454
Other newspapers allso picked it up:
This is from Aftenposten, Norways answer to "The Times" in England:
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article.jhtml?articleID=355821
Nettavisen, norways largest internet newspaper allso wrote about it:
http://www.nettavisen.no/servlets/page?section=2&item=221372
And allso a local newspaper in the west of norway picked up the story:
http://www.smp.no/arkiv/artikkel.asp?id=39752&ka=2
And here is the article from the Bergens Tidende that had reporters
had the wedding:
First heathen wedding in christian time
The old Gods made their comeback in Norway on Midsummers eve. A couple
was wed by the gods Vår, Sjovn and Lovn. The first legal heathen
wedding in christian times. Approved by the Royal Children and Familly
Department.
Hail Thor! - To Frøya - To Njord, for good fishing luck!
A wooden bowl of mead glides soundlessly from hand to hand, from mouth
to mouth. Some of the wedding guests offers loudly. Others just
mumbles, some some within themselves.
But this they have in common: They are gathered around the fire at the
Midsummer Blot, and offers to the old Gods or other who are not with
us who deserves a present and a thought.
Unbothred by speedboats and hobby fishermen that harvest from the
fjords pleassures. For we are allmost in the middle of the capitol,
between Fornebu and the Kings Farm at Bygdøy. Ammong the heathens of
Foreningen Forn Sed, a government supported religious society in the
multi-cultural Norway.
By Vår and Lovn
It is the Societies Forstander, May Bagge-Lund who leads the ceremony
dressed in a simple Foldals Bunad. Not since Olav the Holy crushed the
last remnants of heathenry in year 1030, have people been married in
the heathen way in this kingdom. It is usually the church ,
congregations or the state that have taken care of weddings.
The heathens have had difficult times, and low recruitment, but for 4
years Foreningen Forn Sed has worked for the old beliefs in Aesir,
Vettir, Dwarfs, Nisser, Jotnir and Alves. Now the religious society
have 80 members, and actively honors the gods both out in nature and
trough traditional meals.
They have their own Newsletter, "Ni Hemmer", where you can read about
newborn heathens, about the old gods and about the last Blot.
This midsummer night a new fortress is to be taken. A man and a woman
shall be wed to each other by the gods Vår, Sjovn and Lovn. Unknown
names for most of us, but important for the heathens: Vår is the god
that listens to the wedding wows, Sjovn is the one that wakes up love,
while Lovn is the one that helps lovers get each other.
Beutiful, concrete and a practical sharing of the work. From cyberpace
to the underworld. Now they are not Norwegians, the two lovers who
shall get each other here at this fire. They come from New Zealand.
They don't live of the land and the suns gifts either. Both are
computer engineers, with cyberspace as the field of work, and the
Internet as their language.
More visibly the new and the old times can not meet, as Per Sivle said
about the battle of Stiklestad. Nik Warrensson (38) read the Edda as a
ten year old, and today is the leader of the Aasatru association in
his homeland. His bride, Morag Mary Colston (45), is just as
fascinated by the old Norse gods. Two years ago she gave Nik a son,
and gave him the name Agnar. Agnar Nikson, at the present doing his
best to steal the show. It's not easy to sit quetly when mum and dad
are getting married.
- But why Bygdøy in Norway, and not on a beach in New Zealand? -
Becouse only Norway and Iceland allows weddings according to our
faith, say the two that now travels down under again, with faith in
winning more people for Odin and Thor and the others. A mead
aggreement they have made with a local brewery.
The old custom
They are by no means fanatical, the heathens of our time. Quite the
opposite. In Foreningen Forn Seds law it says that they shall honor
the old traditions and cultural inheritance without interfering with
other faith and belief systems.
The old custom is based on tollerance, honesty, fidelety, respect for
nature and all life.
- Vi are especially concerned with keeping neo-nazis away, says Jón
Július Filippusson, the societys founder and motor.
He admits that there are neo-nazis that are fascinated by the old
Aasatru, the myths and the rituals, but they are not welcome at all.
- We are completely non - political, there are both conservatives and
socialists in our religious society he says.
The with allso manifest itself in the wedding guests attire. In the
invitation we were asked to dress nice, in honor of the occation.
Fillipusson wore a suit and a tie, other guests wore luse-kofte
(Norwegian wool sweater, with buttons), and jeans. The dress code was
liberal, and allso the consumption of alcohol was moderate.
- Drink with moderation, as described in the Haavamal, it said in the
invitation.
But one thing was absolute during this years Midsummer Blot: the ban
against cell-phones. There are limits to what gods one should obey!!
Bless
Nik Warrensson
bowman
> The first legally binding Heathen Wedding in Norway took place on Mid
> Summer. This is the english translation of the original.
Great article, and congratulations!
Rune Bjørnsen
newspaper today.
And here is the article:
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=8835722
The text is more or less the same as the original article in Bergens
Tidende,
but with this addition.
"....the only thing missing was the right to perform legal weddings. And
that right they got from the Christian Democratic Party. Children- and
Family Minister Laila Dåvøy can not however remember the case.
- I don't have any knowledge about this concrete case, I simply can't
remeber it. But I shall have a talk with the Church minister, Valgerd
Svarstad Haugland tomorrow. I think this sounds strange, Dåvøy says."
Rune Bjørnsen
"Wild Colonial Boy" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3d2018e0....@news.eircom.net...
Dirk Bruere
"Rune Bjørnsen" <sop...@chello.no> wrote in message
news:Or_T8.21$U32...@news01.chello.no...
> The story hit the front page of VG, the internet edition of Norways
largest
> newspaper today.
>
> And here is the article:
>
> http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=8835722
>
> The text is more or less the same as the original article in Bergens
> Tidende,
> but with this addition.
>
> "....the only thing missing was the right to perform legal weddings. And
> that right they got from the Christian Democratic Party. Children- and
> Family Minister Laila Dåvøy can not however remember the case.
>
> - I don't have any knowledge about this concrete case, I simply can't
> remeber it. But I shall have a talk with the Church minister, Valgerd
> Svarstad Haugland tomorrow. I think this sounds strange, Dåvøy says."
It will be interesting to see if this has an impact on FFS membership in the
coming weeks.
Let us know what happens.
FFF
Dirk
Rune Bjørnsen
> It will be interesting to see if this has an impact on FFS membership in
the
> coming weeks.
> Let us know what happens.
>
> FFF
> Dirk
We are allready recieving e-mails from people who are interested in joining
us. :-)
Rune
Andreas Larsson
/Andreas
"Wild Colonial Boy" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3d2018e0....@news.eircom.net...
root
Many congratulations Nik.
May you, your wife, and your son(and future children and grandchildren)
enjoy a happy and prosperous future together.
golwg
Matthew
Rune Bjørnsen
to Iceland :-)
http://www.mbl.is/mm/frettir/erlent/frett.html?nid=817866
Rune
"Wild Colonial Boy" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3d2018e0....@news.eircom.net...
COMPRASUR
http://www.azulfuerte.com
Anillo de webs que luchan por la igualdad de derechos del hombre y la mujer,
por la custodia compartida de los hijos.Bases de datos sobre estos temas
para su estudio. http://mandefender.freeservers.com/yahoorings.htm
Greetings, we are creating a world ring of webs of the man's discrimination
and we would like them to unite to create a world platform of fight. our
URL: http://mandefender.freeservers.com
Anel de webs que lutâo pela igualdade dos direitos do homem e da mulher ,
pela costodia compartida dos filhos , arquivo de noticias sobre este tema
para o seu estudo. http://mandefender.freeservers.com/votar.html
Beste Gruesse; wir bauen einen weltweiten Ring von Webseiten gegen die
Diskriminierung des Mannes. Maenner brauchen Hilfe und Unterstuetzung in
diesem Kampf. http://es.geocities.com/mandefender/Atlas/Atlas.htm
Meilleures salutations, nous construison un anneau es sites web mondial
contre la discrimination de l' homme et des peres.
http://es.geocities.com/mandefender/Atlas/EUROPA.htm
Gregg
You all MUST check out these people too: http://www.fathers.ca/
SUCCESS!!
(crossposting nixed)
--
Gregg
On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 04:22:52 GMT, "COMPRASUR" <comp...@terra.es>
wrote:
Gregg
tons of it they had) is GONE!
--
Gregg
Rune Bjørnsen
regarding Nik and Morags wedding:
"Do you think it's okay that Heathens can perform legal wedding ceremonies
in Norway?"
The answer was:
Yes : 74,54%
No : 25,45%
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=8835722
Rune Bjornsen
The Minister of the Royal Children and Familly Department made a comment to
the article, where she tought it strange that such a thing was sanctioned by
her department, and that she would have a talk with the Church minister (Yes
we actually have one in this country...lol) about it, the day after she made
a comment where she explained the law, that simply says that as long as a
religious society is recognized by the Government as such, they can perform
legal weddings, but have to get their wedding form approved by the
department first (this is a formality, where they check that the wedding
form is in accordance with Norwegian law).
So I guess someone sat her down and explained the law to her. Both ministers
are from the Christian Democratic Party that runs this country these days...
So to Nik and Morag, you now have celebrity status in this country, so when
you return, expect paparazzi hiding in the bushes everywhere you go...lol
Rune
Dirk Bruere
The law that was explained to her was the 'law of unexpected consequences'.
FFF
Dirk
Phil
I do hope an agenda item will be attacking the continuing
pussification of White males. Wimpism is rampant.
Phil
Wild Colonial Boy
wrote:
>The Internet edition of VG asked it's readers the following question
>regarding Nik and Morags wedding:
>
>"Do you think it's okay that Heathens can perform legal wedding ceremonies
>in Norway?"
>
>The answer was:
>Yes : 74,54%
>No : 25,45%
Who were the 25.45% thats what I want know and why they thought that
way?
>http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=8835722
>
>Rune Bjornsen
>
>The Minister of the Royal Children and Familly Department made a comment to
>the article, where she tought it strange that such a thing was sanctioned by
>her department, and that she would have a talk with the Church minister (Yes
>we actually have one in this country...lol) about it, the day after she made
>a comment where she explained the law, that simply says that as long as a
>religious society is recognized by the Government as such, they can perform
>legal weddings, but have to get their wedding form approved by the
>department first (this is a formality, where they check that the wedding
>form is in accordance with Norwegian law).
>
>So I guess someone sat her down and explained the law to her. Both ministers
>are from the Christian Democratic Party that runs this country these days...
Christian Democrats - the irony.
>So to Nik and Morag, you now have celebrity status in this country, so when
>you return, expect paparazzi hiding in the bushes everywhere you go...lol
Hahaha. Thanks for that Rune.
Nik
Dirk Bruere
> On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 15:52:06 GMT, "Rune Bjørnsen" <sop...@chello.no>
> wrote:
>
> >The Internet edition of VG asked it's readers the following question
> >regarding Nik and Morags wedding:
> >
> >"Do you think it's okay that Heathens can perform legal wedding
ceremonies
> >in Norway?"
> >
> >The answer was:
> >Yes : 74,54%
> >No : 25,45%
>
> Who were the 25.45% thats what I want know and why they thought that
> way?
And where do they live?
Dirk
Rune Bjørnsen
> >
> > Who were the 25.45% thats what I want know and why they thought that
> > way?
>
> And where do they live?
>
Have not got the foggiest idea...lol
Rune
Wild Colonial Boy
wrote:
heh heh - no. I'd enjoy the opportunity to discuss the reasons why.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
C'mon people of soc.culture.nordic why did 25% of the readers of VG
who bothered to vote, vote against letting Heathens get legally
married in Norway?
Nik
Stein R.
Don't know. Seems weird. Congrats on your marriage.
Stein
Wild Colonial Boy
It does seem weird. My impression of modern Scandinavians is that
they're live and let live, relaxed in an efficient sort of manner.
>Congrats on your marriage.
Thanks. Did you see the pictures?
Nik
Dirk Bruere
> >> >>> >The Internet edition of VG asked it's readers the following
question
> >> >>> >regarding Nik and Morags wedding:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >"Do you think it's okay that Heathens can perform legal wedding
> >> >>ceremonies
> >> >>> >in Norway?"
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >The answer was:
> >> >>> >Yes : 74,54%
> >> >>> >No : 25,45%
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Who were the 25.45% thats what I want know and why they thought
that
> >> >>> way?
> >> >>
> >> >>And where do they live?
> >> >
> >> >heh heh - no. I'd enjoy the opportunity to discuss the reasons why.
> >> >
> >> >Nik
> >>
> >> C'mon people of soc.culture.nordic why did 25% of the readers of VG
> >> who bothered to vote, vote against letting Heathens get legally
> >> married in Norway?
> >
> > Don't know. Seems weird.
>
> It does seem weird. My impression of modern Scandinavians is that
> they're live and let live, relaxed in an efficient sort of manner.
Maybe Norwegians take their religion seriously, unlike the Brits.
In which case it's good news that 75% support us.
FFF
Dirk
Keera Ann Fox
> "Wild Colonial Boy" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:3d280e0e...@news.eircom.net...
> > >> >>> >The Internet edition of VG asked it's readers the following
> question
> > >> >>> >regarding Nik and Morags wedding:
> > >> >>> >
> > >> >>> >"Do you think it's okay that Heathens can perform legal wedding
> > >> >>ceremonies
> > >> >>> >in Norway?"
> > >> >>> >
> > >> >>> >The answer was:
> > >> >>> >Yes : 74,54%
> > >> >>> >No : 25,45%
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Who were the 25.45% thats what I want know and why they thought
> > >> >>> that way?
-snip-
> > >> C'mon people of soc.culture.nordic why did 25% of the readers of VG
> > >> who bothered to vote, vote against letting Heathens get legally
> > >> married in Norway?
> > >
> > > Don't know. Seems weird.
> >
> > It does seem weird. My impression of modern Scandinavians is that
> > they're live and let live, relaxed in an efficient sort of manner.
>
> Maybe Norwegians take their religion seriously,
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Remember, 75 % voted _for_ allowing heathen wedding ceremonies.
> unlike the Brits.
Most Norwegian churches are practically empty on Sundays. The _only_
time 90 % of the population go to church are for baptisms, weddings and
funerals. Some also go to church for Christmas Mass and confirmations.
So-called "civil confirmation" (gawd, what a phrase) is gaining
increasing popularity every year.
> In which case it's good news that 75% support us.
Support who/what?
The way I see it, the only ones seriously considering the question are
the 25 % who voted against; the 75 % who voted for I believe are
primarily people who don't care one way or the other. This is based on
how I perceive the general population's opinions (see above re
church-going).
--
***** Keera in Norway *****
* Think big. Shrink to fit. *
http://home.online.no/~kafox/
Dirk Bruere
"Keera Ann Fox" <thinkbigs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1ff0ssx.13intwpuwxsn4N%thinkbigs...@yahoo.com...
> > > >> >>> >"Do you think it's okay that Heathens can perform legal
wedding
> > > >> >>ceremonies
> > > >> >>> >in Norway?"
> > > >> >>> >
> > > >> >>> >The answer was:
> > > >> >>> >Yes : 74,54%
> > > >> >>> >No : 25,45%
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Who were the 25.45% thats what I want know and why they thought
> > > >> >>> that way?
>
> -snip-
>
> > > >> C'mon people of soc.culture.nordic why did 25% of the readers of VG
> > > >> who bothered to vote, vote against letting Heathens get legally
> > > >> married in Norway?
> > > >
> > > > Don't know. Seems weird.
> > >
> > > It does seem weird. My impression of modern Scandinavians is that
> > > they're live and let live, relaxed in an efficient sort of manner.
> >
> > Maybe Norwegians take their religion seriously,
>
> BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
They certainly have to pay for it, unlike those in Britain.
> Remember, 75 % voted _for_ allowing heathen wedding ceremonies.
So?
> > unlike the Brits.
>
> Most Norwegian churches are practically empty on Sundays. The _only_
> time 90 % of the population go to church are for baptisms, weddings and
> funerals. Some also go to church for Christmas Mass and confirmations.
> So-called "civil confirmation" (gawd, what a phrase) is gaining
> increasing popularity every year.
>
> > In which case it's good news that 75% support us.
>
> Support who/what?
The right Heathens to practice 'officially' as equal under the law.
> The way I see it, the only ones seriously considering the question are
> the 25 % who voted against; the 75 % who voted for I believe are
> primarily people who don't care one way or the other. This is based on
> how I perceive the general population's opinions (see above re
> church-going).
I can live with that.
FFF
Dirk
Rune Bjørnsen
>
> Most Norwegian churches are practically empty on Sundays. The _only_
> time 90 % of the population go to church are for baptisms, weddings and
> funerals. Some also go to church for Christmas Mass and confirmations.
> So-called "civil confirmation" (gawd, what a phrase) is gaining
> increasing popularity every year.
True :-)
And I would like to add that in Norway you are basicly not frowned upon for
not having a religion, but you are kind of looked strangely at if you
actually admit to having a religious faith...
Rune Bjørnsen
Stein R.
Mmm - I meant that the whole "heathen marriage" thing seemed
weird. I doubt if most of the people who saw the news about it
took it very seriously - it was reported as "light summertime
amusement" type of news, not as "new option when getting married".
Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
papers have so little real news to report that they report on
funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
it probably wouldn't have made national news.
I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
(IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
looks somewhat silly.
I suspect most of us just think of Nick Smith's wedding (if
we think of it at all) as the equivalent of just filing the
papers at city hall. The only difference is that you don't
have to turn in the paperwork personally - your toastmaster
(ie gode or whatever you call him) can do it for you.
But be that as it may - jolly good luck to Nick and his
bride. City hall or cathedral, country church or mountain
top, diving from an airplane or scubadiving, having the
ceremony done by a catholic, a protestant, a moslem, a
sikh, an agnostic, an atheist or whatever - you get married
anyways if the proper forms are filled out correctly :-)
Grin,
Stein, happily married for 5 years in a month or so
Dirk Bruere
"Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3D29FC...@nospam.com...
As they say, time will tell.
In Britain the most rapidly growing group of religions come under the
'pagan' heading including Asatru/Heathenism.
OTOH, we have Xianity in serious decline but atheism/agnosticism is not
taking up the slack.
One small step forward for Heathens, and one small step back for Xians...
FFF
Dirk
Stein R.
> > But be that as it may - jolly good luck to Nick and his
> > bride. City hall or cathedral, country church or mountain
> > top, diving from an airplane or scubadiving, having the
> > ceremony done by a catholic, a protestant, a moslem, a
> > sikh, an agnostic, an atheist or whatever - you get married
> > anyways if the proper forms are filled out correctly :-)
>
> As they say, time will tell.
> In Britain the most rapidly growing group of religions come
> under the 'pagan' heading including Asatru/Heathenism.
> OTOH, we have Xianity in serious decline but atheism/
> agnosticism is not taking up the slack.
>
> One small step forward for Heathens, and one small step
> back for Xians...
Just out of idle curiosity:
1) How many C of E members these days ?
2) How many members of asatru congregations (not "others" lumped
together, but specific asatru) ?
Grin,
Stein
Rune Bjørnsen
"Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> Mmm - I meant that the whole "heathen marriage" thing seemed
> weird.
New things always seems weird.
I doubt if most of the people who saw the news about it
> took it very seriously - it was reported as "light summertime
> amusement" type of news, not as "new option when getting married".
Heathens, and there are a lot more than you think, will see it as a new
option.
It's simply an option to have your ceremony done in according to your
religious beliefs, rather than just popping into an office and have some
official read the words and signing a paper, and thus a more "spiritually"
binding marriage than just the legal ramifications. The legal part can
easilly be overidden by a day or two in court. Nik and Morag made an oath in
in the pressence of the Gods, and that you would need an extremely good
lawyer to change. :-)
> Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
> papers have so little real news to report that they report on
> funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
> it probably wouldn't have made national news.
>
> I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
> (IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
> culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
> than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
> looks somewhat silly.
Well, FFS can't exactly boast a large number of members, and I have to admit
that for the urbanized part of the population it can look quite silly.
Especially if you like most people don't know anything about who we are and
what we stand for. But I assure you that this was a beutifull, and
meaningfull ceremony performed in accordance with our faith. To say that
this is silly, is like saying that having a religious element in a wedding
ceremony is silly.
And the media coverage will allow us the inform people about who we are and
what we stand for in a much easier way.
Rune
Dirk Bruere
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >
> > "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:3D29FC...@nospam.com...
>
> > > But be that as it may - jolly good luck to Nick and his
> > > bride. City hall or cathedral, country church or mountain
> > > top, diving from an airplane or scubadiving, having the
> > > ceremony done by a catholic, a protestant, a moslem, a
> > > sikh, an agnostic, an atheist or whatever - you get married
> > > anyways if the proper forms are filled out correctly :-)
> >
> > As they say, time will tell.
> > In Britain the most rapidly growing group of religions come
> > under the 'pagan' heading including Asatru/Heathenism.
> > OTOH, we have Xianity in serious decline but atheism/
> > agnosticism is not taking up the slack.
> >
> > One small step forward for Heathens, and one small step
> > back for Xians...
>
> Just out of idle curiosity:
>
> 1) How many C of E members these days ?
I do not know.
I don't even know if there are such things as stats on 'members' of the CoE,
or even if the CoE knows.
Unlike Norway one does not officially 'sign up' to anything.
> 2) How many members of asatru congregations (not "others" lumped
> together, but specific asatru) ?
No idea either.
However, for the first time last year's census had a question about religion
so we may know sometime in August.
However, that still will not tell us how many Asatru there are since we
apparently split the answers between: Asatru/Odinist/Heathen/Pagan. Maybe a
few even put down 'Newage' :-(
For example, my reply as to religion was 'Heathen (pagan)', so I will
probably be lumped under 'pagan'.
All I can say is that from a subjective POV almost all pagan/Heathen orgs
are increasing in numbers quite rapidly.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
"Dirk Bruere" <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:agcsji$kcl0m$1...@ID-120108.news.dfncis.de...
The only relevent thing I can find on CoE membership is this:
http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/coeattend.html
Average church attendance of just over 1m in 1995 (out of a population in
England/Wales of some 50m).
And more detailed, but slightly different stats for 2000
http://www.gazette.cofe.anglican.org/articles/02_02_page4.html
FFF
Dirk
Keera Ann Fox
One doesn't officially "sign up" in Norway, either. If you are baptized
in the state church, you are automatically a member of said church. In
spite of the lack of religious interest, people still have their kids
baptized. And the kids go through the motions and get confirmated ("for
the party and the gifts!"). Also, the state church is the only one
allowed to have graveyards so you end up getting buried on state church
soil, no matter what your faith.
You do have to make an effort to get out of the church. Up until a few
years ago, there weren't membership lists. If you were a Norwegian
citizen, it was assumed you also were a member of the state church.
At one time, 98 % of all Norwegians were members of the state church.
That figure has dwindled a bit, though it's still over 90 %.
Most don't go to church, and most don't bother to make any conscious
choice about why they don't and what the alternative is. It's not like
in the US, where religion is a major topic of discussion (as well as a
passion) and where people actually "church shop", looking for a
religion/congregation that suits their personal needs and tastes. I did
that when I lived in California. In Norway, the choices are state
church, some other Christian (and usually more conservative) "free"
church, or nothing. (A lot of atheists here, it seems.) Other things,
like buddhism or heathenism, are just not mainstream enough to get most
people's attention (or familiarity).
The old Norse religion is just another thing kids have to learn to get a
grade in history along with other boring and irrelevant stuff like
Vikings and World War II.
Rune Bjørnsen
> Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
And everything Keera Ann said is actually true. Most Norwegians simply don't
give a hoot about religion. One saying goes: Norwegians go to church 4 times
in their lives, and 2 of those times they are carried there... (the
remaining 2 being confirmation and wedding). The only reason I'm not a
member of the Church of Norway, is that I'm a Member of Forn Sed, and
Norwegian Law says that you can't be a member of two religious societies at
the same time.
Rune Bjørnsen
> member of the Church of Norway, is that I'm a Member of Forn Sed, and
> Norwegian Law says that you can't be a member of two religious societies
at
> the same time.
Uh, that came out wrong....
I meant to say: the only reason I opted out of the Church of Norway, was
that I found the Gods of my ancestors, and became a member of Forn Sed....
Rune
Dirk Bruere
> The only reason I'm not a
> > member of the Church of Norway, is that I'm a Member of Forn Sed, and
> > Norwegian Law says that you can't be a member of two religious societies
> at
> > the same time.
Over here you can be a member of as many as you want, or as many as will
tolerate you.
As for baptisms, weddings and funerals I suspect that Xian is simply the
default option unless otherwise specified, although baptisms seem to be
falling off quite a bit.
As for weddings, that is changing to either 'none' or pagan/Heathen.
When that happens then obviously the default for baptisms and funerals is
going to change, but will take time.
IMO Heathen weddings are the most important rituals for us to increase our
influence.
FFF
Dirk
HrappR Normansson
I would imagine that this wasn't the _first_ legal Heathen marriage in
Norway, but rather the first in nearly ten centuries. ;-)
But congrats to all involved, and especially the bride and groom!
Skiljum heilir,
Hrappr
bowman
>
> And everything Keera Ann said is actually true. Most Norwegians simply
> don't give a hoot about religion.
I can't find the link at the moment, but I recall finding it a few months
back when Heidi mentioned something about church attendance. All the
Scandanavian countries trailed the pack in attendance, with numbers like
2%. It rather surprised me. But then, I was surprised to realize the impact
the Swedish state religion had on emigration.
Stein R.
>
> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> > Mmm - I meant that the whole "heathen marriage" thing seemed
> > weird.
>
> New things always seems weird.
That's my point. This is rather obviously a new thing. No
more based in our current mainstream culture than getting
married in a buddhist (isn't it ?) ceremony with cymbals,
fireworks and dancing dragons.
> > I doubt if most of the people who saw the news about it
> > took it very seriously - it was reported as "light summer-
> > time amusement" type of news, not as "new option when
> > getting married".
>
> Heathens, and there are a lot more than you think, will see
> it as a new option.
There isn't all that many, according to reasonably reliable
statistics. The numbers from Statistics Norway for 2001 put
it this way:
Membership of registered (*) religious societies except C of N
===============================================================
Moslem congregations 62 051
Pentecostal 43 019
Roman cath 42 546
Evang luth free ch 21 303
Jehovas witness 14 812
Methodist church 12 918
Baptist 10 352
Missonary assoc 8 182
Buddhist 8 020
Adventist 6 853
Foreign lutheran 5 725
Christian center 3 302
Greek ortodox 3 279
Evang Luth ch society 3 438
Hindu congregations 2 443
Society of christians 2 301
Sikh 1 974
God's congregation 1 028
Mosaic (jewish) 1 015
Various others 13 939
Total membership in registered religious societies outside
Church of Norway: 268 097, of which "Others" is 13 939.
In comparison, the Humane-ethical society had 70 300 members,
and the Church of Norway had around 3.8 million members, or
roughly 86 % of the total population.
If we are extremely charitable, and assume that *all* of
those 13 939 "various others" are really Asatru/Odinists/
whatever you prefer to call yourself, then you form
13 939 / (268 097 + 70 300 + 3 800 000) = 0.3% of the
total membership in organized religious societies.
And that is making the very charitable assumption that
there are 10 000+ of you. Notice that societies that get
government subsidies based on membership lists are listed
by name down to around 1000 members. Methinks that the
rather obvious conclusion is that Forn Sed and similar
Asatru organizations in NOrway probably have *fewer*
than 1000 members per organization, since they are listed
in the lump sum "others" instead of being listed as their
own line item in the statistics.
So no - I don't think there is "a lot more (Asatruers)
than I (imagined)" :-)
> It's simply an option to have your ceremony done in according
> to your religious beliefs, rather than just popping into an
> office and have some official read the words and signing a
> paper, and thus a more "spiritually" binding marriage than
> just the legal ramifications. The legal part can easilly be
> overidden by a day or two in court. Nik and Morag made an oath
> in the pressence of the Gods, and that you would need an
> extremely good lawyer to change. :-)
Well, that is basically a philosophical question. Members of
all other religions seems to be able to break whatever oaths
they make in front of their god or gods, so somehow I fail to
see that reading from the old norse sagas mixed with a few
freshly invented invocations will do more to keep people to-
gether than just signing the paperwork.
But I certainly wish them a long, peaceful, happy, committed
and stable marriage - that seems to be a much better environment
for kids to grow up in than just about any other arrangement we
humans have figured out.
> > I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
> > (IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
> > culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
> > than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
> > looks somewhat silly.
>
> Well, FFS can't exactly boast a large number of members, and
> I have to admit that for the urbanized part of the population
> it can look quite silly.
Actually, you got that ass backwards, buddy boy.
41% of the people who belong to other religious societies
than church of Norway live in Oslo or Akershus, ie our most
urbanized areas. They form around 15% of the total population
in these two fylker.
For the country as a whole, on average 8% of the population
is belonging to other religious societies than church of Norway.
The fylke with the lowest percentage of "non C of E members" is
Sogn and Fjordane, with only 1% of the population being a member
of other religious societies than Church of Norway.
Sogn and Fjordane, incidentally, is what foreigners think of
as Viking land - deep fjords and high mountains, remote villages
and families that have farmed the same land for centuries ...
Asatru in Norway, IMO (your opinion obviously will differ :-)
is like most other kinds of New Age nonsense: a fad at e.g
the Universities in the bigger cities. A nice way of appearing
to be an original thinker, get to drink a little beer in a social
setting and a chance to piss off those few overly religious and
annoying proselyzing christians that really stick in your gullet.
A few *may* take it seriously, and try to live their life
according to moral guidelines in your "religion", but I suspect
that if your society were to e.g. totally ban the drinking of
beer, then the membership would drop dramatically and suddenly
:-)
> Especially if you like most people don't know anything about
> who we are and what we stand for.
> But I assure you that this was a beutifull, and meaningfull
> ceremony performed in accordance with our faith. To say that
> this is silly, is like saying that having a religious element
> in a wedding ceremony is silly.
The ceremony can certainly look silly to outsiders and still
be significant to the people taking part. I have been to the
weddings of friends and family of many faiths, and I have
found both beautiful and silly (to me, anyways) elements.
Anyways, if Nick hadn't insisted on spamming my mailbox
to get me to comment on the issue, then I would have kept
my peace and let you guys bask in the perceived glory,
rather than pointing out that the significance of the
occation was totally underwhelming for Norwegian society,
even if it was personally important for Nick and his bride.
> And the media coverage will allow us the inform people about
> who we are and what we stand for in a much easier way.
Good luck to you, you are going to need it if you intend to
become a larger and more significant religious society than
e.g. the Buddhists in Norway :-)
Smile,
Stein
Wild Colonial Boy
It is not a 'new option when getting married'. One has to either be a
member of the organisation, in this case Foreningen Forn Sed, or a
close associate of FFS in the case of non-Norway residents. This is
*not* open to anyone who thinks that they may enjoy the novelty.
> Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
>papers have so little real news to report that they report on
>funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
>it probably wouldn't have made national news.
But it did though and in quite a few different newspapers. It even
stretched all the way to Iceland.
> I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such.
Why did they say that they did then?
> Asatru IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
>culture
Indeed - *your opinion*. It was enough that it drew the attention of
the Minister for Families and that it was the FIRST ever legally
binding Heathen wedding since the Battle of Stiklestad 1030AD.
> - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
>than in Norway.
Principally because there are a lot more people in the US. The telling
statistic would be as a ratio to population. In that case I would
expect that the Nordic nations would outstrip the US.
> In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
>looks somewhat silly.
Again your opinion. Some might think that believing in a person who
revived after three days of death or was born to a virgin as being
silly.
> I suspect most of us just think of Nick Smith's wedding (if
>we think of it at all)
That was my born name. My name now is Nik Warrensson. My father's name
is Warren Smith. Its not as if I've called myself something like
Kvelulf Gundarrsson. Let it go will you Stein your insistence on using
that name that I left behind a long time ago makes you look
unreasonable.
> as the equivalent of just filing the
>papers at city hall. The only difference is that you don't
>have to turn in the paperwork personally - your toastmaster
>(ie gode or whatever you call him) can do it for you.
That would be the only differnce to someone who doesn't actually have
the heathen faith. One could say the same thing about Christian
ceremonies if the parties concerned were not active Christians but it
wouldn't be appropriate if they were. In the same manner it is not
appropriate in my case for I am a Heathen and proudly so.
> But be that as it may - jolly good luck to Nick and his
>bride.
Well thank you Mr Cynical.
>City hall or cathedral, country church or mountain
>top, diving from an airplane or scubadiving, having the
>ceremony done by a catholic, a protestant, a moslem, a
>sikh, an agnostic, an atheist or whatever - you get married
>anyways if the proper forms are filled out correctly :-)
Indeed.
> Stein, happily married for 5 years in a month or so
Very good. Please pass on my best wishes to your Wife and little
Espen.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
Ann Fox) wrote:
>Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:3D2A01...@nospam.com...
>> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> > >
>> > > "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:3D29FC...@nospam.com...
<cut>
>The old Norse religion is just another thing kids have to learn to get a
>grade in history along with other boring and irrelevant stuff like
>Vikings and World War II.
World War II history is still relevant to today. Perish the thought
that we might forget it - you can't mean that. If we were to forget
the manner in which Hitler made his way to power then we might miss
another attempting to do the same thing.
Re: Vikings, well if you don't get it then there's nothing that I can
say to you for explaining roots to someone who doesn't understand
already is like trying to explain blue to a blind person.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
wrote:
>"Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
>> Mmm - I meant that the whole "heathen marriage" thing seemed
>> weird.
>
>New things always seems weird.
>
>
>I doubt if most of the people who saw the news about it
>> took it very seriously - it was reported as "light summertime
>> amusement" type of news, not as "new option when getting married".
>
>Heathens, and there are a lot more than you think, will see it as a new
>option.
>It's simply an option to have your ceremony done in according to your
>religious beliefs, rather than just popping into an office and have some
>official read the words and signing a paper, and thus a more "spiritually"
>binding marriage than just the legal ramifications. The legal part can
>easilly be overidden by a day or two in court. Nik and Morag made an oath in
>in the pressence of the Gods, and that you would need an extremely good
>lawyer to change. :-)
If one takes Oaths seriously there are no lawyers anywhere that can
overturn them.
>> Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
>> papers have so little real news to report that they report on
>> funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
>> it probably wouldn't have made national news.
>>
>> I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
>> (IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
>> culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
>> than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
>> looks somewhat silly.
>
>Well, FFS can't exactly boast a large number of members, and I have to admit
>that for the urbanized part of the population it can look quite silly.
>Especially if you like most people don't know anything about who we are and
>what we stand for. But I assure you that this was a beutifull, and
>meaningfull ceremony performed in accordance with our faith. To say that
>this is silly, is like saying that having a religious element in a wedding
>ceremony is silly.
Indeed. How about the time Rune, when FFS was having a Blot in Borre
and a couple reported it to the Politi. When the Politi arrived and
asked what was going on and were told, "We're having a Blot to the
Gods", they replied "We are proud that you are having a Blot in our
juristriction." and left FFS to it?
>And the media coverage will allow us the inform people about who we are and
>what we stand for in a much easier way.
Foreningen Forn Sed has already had a lot of requests for membeship
since the articles appeared.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
>Rune Bjørnsen wrote:
>>
>> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
<cut>
>> It's simply an option to have your ceremony done in according
>> to your religious beliefs, rather than just popping into an
>> office and have some official read the words and signing a
>> paper, and thus a more "spiritually" binding marriage than
>> just the legal ramifications. The legal part can easilly be
>> overidden by a day or two in court. Nik and Morag made an oath
>> in the pressence of the Gods, and that you would need an
>> extremely good lawyer to change. :-)
>
> Well, that is basically a philosophical question. Members of
>all other religions seems to be able to break whatever oaths
>they make in front of their god or gods, so somehow I fail to
>see that reading from the old norse sagas mixed with a few
>freshly invented invocations will do more to keep people to-
>gether than just signing the paperwork.
You would.
> But I certainly wish them a long, peaceful, happy, committed
>and stable marriage - that seems to be a much better environment
>for kids to grow up in than just about any other arrangement we
>humans have figured out.
Thanks.
>> > I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
>> > (IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
>> > culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
>> > than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
>> > looks somewhat silly.
>>
>> Well, FFS can't exactly boast a large number of members, and
>> I have to admit that for the urbanized part of the population
>> it can look quite silly.
>
> Actually, you got that ass backwards, buddy boy.
>
> 41% of the people who belong to other religious societies
>than church of Norway live in Oslo or Akershus, ie our most
>urbanized areas. They form around 15% of the total population
>in these two fylker.
>
> For the country as a whole, on average 8% of the population
>is belonging to other religious societies than church of Norway.
>
> The fylke with the lowest percentage of "non C of E members" is
>Sogn and Fjordane, with only 1% of the population being a member
>of other religious societies than Church of Norway.
>
> Sogn and Fjordane, incidentally, is what foreigners think of
>as Viking land - deep fjords and high mountains, remote villages
>and families that have farmed the same land for centuries ...
>
> Asatru in Norway, IMO (your opinion obviously will differ :-)
>is like most other kinds of New Age nonsense: a fad at e.g
>the Universities in the bigger cities.
One thing it isn't is 'New Age'. If it is nonsense of any sort it is
*not* 'New Age'.
> A nice way of appearing to be an original thinker,
No. This line of thought is not original. It has been going on for a
long long time now.
> get to drink a little beer in a social
>setting and a chance to piss off those few overly religious and
>annoying proselyzing christians that really stick in your gullet.
Whilst that is an amusing side effect it plays no serious part in my
or FFS' motivations.
> A few *may* take it seriously, and try to live their life
>according to moral guidelines in your "religion", but I suspect
>that if your society were to e.g. totally ban the drinking of
>beer, then the membership would drop dramatically and suddenly
>:-)
That would be in contravention of our practices and rituals so I would
expect so to. The Havamal tells us to drink sparingly though - Best is
the Ale Feast when people retain good sense and reason.
>> Especially if you like most people don't know anything about
>> who we are and what we stand for.
>> But I assure you that this was a beutifull, and meaningfull
>> ceremony performed in accordance with our faith. To say that
>> this is silly, is like saying that having a religious element
>> in a wedding ceremony is silly.
>
> The ceremony can certainly look silly to outsiders and still
>be significant to the people taking part. I have been to the
>weddings of friends and family of many faiths, and I have
>found both beautiful and silly (to me, anyways) elements.
Fair enough.
> Anyways, if Nick hadn't insisted on spamming my mailbox
Heh heh. I wouldn't have done it if you hadn't been such a smart arse
in past.
>to get me to comment on the issue, then I would have kept
>my peace and let you guys bask in the perceived glory,
>rather than pointing out that the significance of the
>occation was totally underwhelming for Norwegian society,
>even if it was personally important for Nick and his bride.
I'm happy that this thread is continuing even if it contains attempts
to criticize.
>> And the media coverage will allow us the inform people about
>> who we are and what we stand for in a much easier way.
>
> Good luck to you, you are going to need it if you intend to
>become a larger and more significant religious society than
>e.g. the Buddhists in Norway :-)
Well thank you Stein. Time will tell.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
<hra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Heil ver þú,
>
>I would imagine that this wasn't the _first_ legal Heathen marriage in
>Norway, but rather the first in nearly ten centuries. ;-)
Quite right.
>But congrats to all involved, and especially the bride and groom!
Thanks.
Nik
Rune Bjørnsen
> >
> > New things always seems weird.
>
> That's my point. This is rather obviously a new thing. No
> more based in our current mainstream culture than getting
> married in a buddhist (isn't it ?) ceremony with cymbals,
> fireworks and dancing dragons.
>
We never claimed to be mainstream. Neither we claim that the ceremony we
performed is the way they did it back when...
In pre- christian times people simply declared in front of witnesses that
they where married, and then proceeded with having a good old fashioned
party for familly and friends. The "new" part of it is that we made a
ceremony becouse it is required by the law to have one to make it legal.
> >
> > Heathens, and there are a lot more than you think, will see
> > it as a new option.
*statistics snipped*
>
> So no - I don't think there is "a lot more (Asatruers)
> than I (imagined)" :-)
I don't know what you imagined. But membership in Forn Sed is about 80, with
1-2 new members a month. We have been around in an organized way since 1999.
Bifrost claims 100 members i think, and have been around since the 80'ies.
However there is a large percentage of those that are members of the church
of Norway that would describe themselves as heathen. As you probably are
aware of people are a bit lazy when it comes to actually getting out of the
church. When they do get out, it is usually to join another religious
organisation, or Human Etisk Forbund.
>
> > It's simply an option to have your ceremony done in according
> > to your religious beliefs, rather than just popping into an
> > office and have some official read the words and signing a
> > paper, and thus a more "spiritually" binding marriage than
> > just the legal ramifications. The legal part can easilly be
> > overidden by a day or two in court. Nik and Morag made an oath
> > in the pressence of the Gods, and that you would need an
> > extremely good lawyer to change. :-)
>
> Well, that is basically a philosophical question. Members of
> all other religions seems to be able to break whatever oaths
> they make in front of their god or gods, so somehow I fail to
> see that reading from the old norse sagas mixed with a few
> freshly invented invocations will do more to keep people to-
> gether than just signing the paperwork.
Thats where the faith part comes in...I do think that people that make their
marriage wows in a religious setting, rather than a completely secular one,
have a harder time breaking them.
>
>
> > > I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
> > > (IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
> > > culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
> > > than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
> > > looks somewhat silly.
> >
> > Well, FFS can't exactly boast a large number of members, and
> > I have to admit that for the urbanized part of the population
> > it can look quite silly.
>
> Actually, you got that ass backwards, buddy boy.
>
> 41% of the people who belong to other religious societies
> than church of Norway live in Oslo or Akershus, ie our most
> urbanized areas. They form around 15% of the total population
> in these two fylker.
>
> For the country as a whole, on average 8% of the population
> is belonging to other religious societies than church of Norway.
>
> The fylke with the lowest percentage of "non C of E members" is
> Sogn and Fjordane, with only 1% of the population being a member
> of other religious societies than Church of Norway.
Again, in this country what people belive in, and what religious
organisation they bellong to seems to be completely irrelevant. Just look at
the numbers for church attendance. But admittedly most people that does not
attend church are either atheist or gnostics.
> Sogn and Fjordane, incidentally, is what foreigners think of
> as Viking land - deep fjords and high mountains, remote villages
> and families that have farmed the same land for centuries ...
>
> Asatru in Norway, IMO (your opinion obviously will differ :-)
> is like most other kinds of New Age nonsense: a fad at e.g
> the Universities in the bigger cities. A nice way of appearing
> to be an original thinker, get to drink a little beer in a social
> setting and a chance to piss off those few overly religious and
> annoying proselyzing christians that really stick in your gullet.
Huh?
We have memers spread out all across the country. They come from all walks
off life and from all levels of society. We have conservatives as well as
left wing in our midst. And unlike most religious societies we don't reckon
that membership is required to be a "true" believer. It's quite obvious that
you don't know jack about who we are, and are just making prejudized
assumptions. But then I do recognize that this IS the case for the vast
majority of the Norwegian population as well, so I won't blame you for it.
You simply don't know, thats all...
>
> A few *may* take it seriously, and try to live their life
> according to moral guidelines in your "religion", but I suspect
> that if your society were to e.g. totally ban the drinking of
> beer, then the membership would drop dramatically and suddenly
> :-)
If for example Foreningen Forn Sed was no more than a beer drinkers club I
would opt out imedeately. But I can't see why we would ban the drinking of
alcohol. But if we did, and that made people leave, then good riddance as
that type of people is not the kind of people we seek to attract.
It often happens that members bring friends and/or familly to our Blots and
the most heard comment is "I'm surprised that you are so normal". They
usually expect a bunch of loonies, dressed up in Viking costumes that drinks
until they puke and behaving like idiots, and are quite surprised when they
find quite normal group of people that comes from all walks of life, and age
groups, performing a quite somber religious ritual, dressed in normal
clothes, and then procedes with socializing like any other group of people
that meet up to share experiences and crack the latest joke they heard at
work.
> > Especially if you like most people don't know anything about
> > who we are and what we stand for.
> > But I assure you that this was a beutifull, and meaningfull
> > ceremony performed in accordance with our faith. To say that
> > this is silly, is like saying that having a religious element
> > in a wedding ceremony is silly.
>
> The ceremony can certainly look silly to outsiders and still
> be significant to the people taking part. I have been to the
> weddings of friends and family of many faiths, and I have
> found both beautiful and silly (to me, anyways) elements.
Did you tell that to your friends and relatives, or do you reserve that for
forums that probably won't be noticed by them?
>
> Anyways, if Nick hadn't insisted on spamming my mailbox
> to get me to comment on the issue, then I would have kept
> my peace and let you guys bask in the perceived glory,
> rather than pointing out that the significance of the
> occation was totally underwhelming for Norwegian society,
> even if it was personally important for Nick and his bride.
I would describe it as "A small step for the Norwegian society, a great leap
for the heathen community in Norway :-)". Nobody said it was a mindbusting
historical event for mainstream Norway, but for the heathen community it was
just that...
> > And the media coverage will allow us the inform people about
> > who we are and what we stand for in a much easier way.
>
> Good luck to you, you are going to need it if you intend to
> become a larger and more significant religious society than
> e.g. the Buddhists in Norway :-)
Our goal is not to outgrow other religious belief systems, our goal is to be
a serious alternative for those that wan't to preserve and carry the old
traditions into the future. The media coverage was significant to us becouse
it made more people that share our faith aware of us. And we allready have
noticed a good rise in interest from people that where not aware that we
existed, and that would like to join us.
Rune
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
>
> Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
>papers have so little real news to report that they report on
>funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
>it probably wouldn't have made national news.
Well, I don't know about that, it seems that our current newspapers
have instituted year-round cucumber season lately.
> I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such.
Well, I think probably at least 75% support it in the sense of
"yeah, sure, whatever". Much like most folks seem to be in favor
of "gay marriage": Doesn't concern them personally, but if someone
else wants to do it, why not? Online polls are useless for
measuring this sort of thing, anyway.
Personally I'd rather make legally binding marriages completely
disjunct from any religious ceremonies; let everyone file the same
papers at city hall and celebrate (or not) whatever rites they please
without the state having to worry about any "quality control" on those.
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Rune Bjørnsen
> and a couple reported it to the Politi. When the Politi arrived and
> asked what was going on and were told, "We're having a Blot to the
> Gods", they replied "We are proud that you are having a Blot in our
> juristriction." and left FFS to it?
I was not there, but that is one of the stories we like to ammuse ourselves
with.
But I wonder why that couple reported us to the Police in the first
place...but still happy that the members local police department did not
share their predjudiced views...
But I still find it quite unsetling that people still find it proper to
report heathens to the authorities when they happen to stumble uppon
them....
>
> >And the media coverage will allow us the inform people about who we are
and
> >what we stand for in a much easier way.
>
> Foreningen Forn Sed has already had a lot of requests for membeship
> since the articles appeared.
Yup, thats certainly the case :-)
Rune
Harald Eilertsen
Congratulations to the happy couple, and my best wishes for a happy
life together!
Also congratulations to FFS for the achievement and good publicity on
the event. You beat us by a couple of weeks :) It is definitely an
important event for estabilishing the rights of pagans in Norway.
Best Regards,
Harald Eilertsen
Åsatrufellesskapet Bifrost, Norway
http://www.bifrost.no/
Wild Colonial Boy
wrote:
>Hello!
>
>Congratulations to the happy couple, and my best wishes for a happy
>life together!
Thanks - on behalf of me and my Wife.
>Also congratulations to FFS for the achievement and good publicity on
>the event. You beat us by a couple of weeks :)
Really? Bifrost is about to perform a wedding as well? The more the
merrier. Very good. Please pass on my best wishes to the happy couple.
> It is definitely an
>important event for estabilishing the rights of pagans in Norway.
It definitely is. Our wedding attracted the attention of the Norwegian
Minister for Families.
Bestu
Nik
Rune Bjørnsen
"Harald Eilertsen" <hara...@gnur.c2i.net> wrote in message
news:Xns92469579EF...@195.0.200.200...
>
> Also congratulations to FFS for the achievement and good publicity on
> the event. You beat us by a couple of weeks :) It is definitely an
> important event for estabilishing the rights of pagans in Norway.
Thank you and extend my best wishes for the happy couple as well :-).
Til års og fred
Rune Bjørnsen
Keera Ann Fox
> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:07:15 GMT, thinkbigs...@yahoo.com (Keera
> Ann Fox) wrote:
>
> >Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >> news:3D2A01...@nospam.com...
> >> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:3D29FC...@nospam.com...
>
> <cut>
>
> >The old Norse religion is just another thing kids have to learn to get a
> >grade in history along with other boring and irrelevant stuff like
> >Vikings and World War II.
>
> World War II history is still relevant to today. Perish the thought
> that we might forget it - you can't mean that.
Yes, I do mean that. _I_ grew up with a grandfather who could give me
first-hand accounts of the war at sea, so WWII became personal. But
today's kids can relate as much to WWII as I can to WWI, i.e. very
little, if at all.
> If we were to forget the manner in which Hitler made his way to power
Through a democratic election.
> then we might miss another attempting to do the same thing.
I agree.
Today's world does try to counter prejudice that breeds fear, which left
unchecked can lead to hate. (Humans always hate that which makes them
feel small.) WWII alone cannot teach that lesson in today's world,
though.
My personal opinion (and personal experience) is that history is wasted
on children. You need to be an adult, with some experience of what
drives people, to understand how history comes about -- why people made
the choices they made at the time. The best history teacher teaches
about the people and the whys, not a list of places and dates.
> Re: Vikings, well if you don't get it then there's nothing that I can
> say to you for explaining roots to someone who doesn't understand
> already is like trying to explain blue to a blind person.
It's not what _I_ get. It's how history is taught in Norwegian schools.
(I'm not Norwegian, BTW. I just live here, and I did go to school here.)
Keera Ann Fox
> Evang Luth ch society 3 438
Does the statistic say what this is? The Norwegian state church is
Evangelical Lutheran (lutersk evangelisk).
Stein R.
>
> Stein R. <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Evang Luth ch society 3 438
>
> Does the statistic say what this is? The Norwegian state
> church is Evangelical Lutheran (lutersk evangelisk).
Yep, but that list was of "religious/belief societies
*except* the Norwegian state church". Guess there is at
least two different christian groups that call themselves
Evangelical Lutheran, apart from the state church.
Grin,
Stein
Stein R.
>
> In article <3D29FC...@nospam.com>, Stein R. <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
> >papers have so little real news to report that they report on
> >funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
> >it probably wouldn't have made national news.
>
> Well, I don't know about that, it seems that our current newspapers
> have instituted year-round cucumber season lately.
>
> > I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such.
>
> Well, I think probably at least 75% support it in the sense
> of "yeah, sure, whatever". Much like most folks seem to be
> in favor of "gay marriage": Doesn't concern them personally,
> but if someone else wants to do it, why not? Online polls
> are useless for measuring this sort of thing, anyway.
>
> Personally I'd rather make legally binding marriages
> completely disjunct from any religious ceremonies; let
> everyone file the same papers at city hall and celebrate
> (or not) whatever rites they please without the state
> having to worry about any "quality control" on those.
Makes sense.
Stein
Stein R.
>
> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:55:01 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Asatru IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
>>culture
>
> Indeed - *your opinion*. It was enough that it drew the attention
> of the Minister for Families and that it was the FIRST ever legally
> binding Heathen wedding since the Battle of Stiklestad 1030AD.
That is very much a matter of how you define "heathen wedding".
If you by "heathen" mean "non-religious", then agnostics and
atheists have gotten married at city hall for many, many years.
If you mean "non-christian", buddhists, sikhs and moslems have
also gotten married in Norway for years.
But it admittedly was the first marriage ceremony *ever*
in Norway where the person authorized to sign at the bottom
of the form as "officiating" was a registered "priest" of
some Asatru group. They didn't have those formalities in
1030 AD, so it cannot honestly be described as "the first
such ceremony since 1030" :-)
Grin,
Stein
Stein R.
>
> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:55:01 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Asatru IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
> >culture
<snip irrelevant comment>
> > - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
> >than in Norway.
>
> Principally because there are a lot more people in the US.
> The telling statistic would be as a ratio to population.
> In that case I would expect that the Nordic nations would
> outstrip the US.
According to a guy who apparently is in organized Asatru in
Norway, Rune Bjørnsen:
--> membership in Forn Sed is about 80, with 1-2 new
--> members a month. We have been around in an organized
--> way since 1999.
-->
--> Bifrost claims 100 members i think, and have been
--> around since the 80'ies.
So basically the number of organized Asatru believers in
Norway is somewhere in the range of "below 200 persons".
I'll be charitable and double that number to 400 to allow
for possible other and smaller groups.
There is approximately 3.8 million members of the Norwegian
state church, 70 300 members of the agnostic/atheist Humane-
Ethical society and 268 097 persons belonging to other reli-
gious groups than HES and the state church.
The percentage of organized Asatru believers in Norway:
400 / (3 800 000 + 70 300 + 268 097) = 0.01% of the popu-
lation.
Too small to be statistically significant in any way, no
matter if the percentage is bigger or smaller than in e.g.
the US or New Zealand :-)
Grin
Stein
Stein R.
>
> "Wild Colonial Boy" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
>
>> Indeed. How about the time Rune, when FFS was having a Blot in Borre
>> and a couple reported it to the Politi. When the Politi arrived and
>> asked what was going on and were told, "We're having a Blot to the
>> Gods", they replied "We are proud that you are having a Blot in our
>> juristriction." and left FFS to it?
>
> I was not there, but that is one of the stories we like to
No doubt.
But if anyone who actually *was* present is reading this -
feel free to tell me if the policeman or woman actually did
said "we are *proud* that you are having a blot in our juris-
diction" or if he or she just said something along the lines
of: "nothing illegal about having a blot, sorry about the inter-
uption, we'll leave you in peace", which is the kind of stuff
the police is supposed to say if it turns out that people they
are checking out are not involved in any illegal activity.
Nick's version sounds rather like wishful thinking from afar.
Grin,
Stein, genuinely curious
Rune Bjørnsen
>
> That is very much a matter of how you define "heathen wedding".
> If you by "heathen" mean "non-religious", then agnostics and
> atheists have gotten married at city hall for many, many years.
> If you mean "non-christian", buddhists, sikhs and moslems have
> also gotten married in Norway for years.
I have very strong reason to doubt that the moslems, budhists and sikhs
define themselves as heathen.
>
> But it admittedly was the first marriage ceremony *ever*
> in Norway where the person authorized to sign at the bottom
> of the form as "officiating" was a registered "priest" of
> some Asatru group.
Foreningen Forn Sed is not a astru group, we are a folktru group that ammong
others honor the Aesir.
They didn't have those formalities in
> 1030 AD, so it cannot honestly be described as "the first
> such ceremony since 1030" :-)
Fiddlesticks!
It was the first ceremony after Christianization to be recognized as legal
by the Government of Norway. but you are right in saying that they did not
have a ceremony of this kind back then. In those days it was enough for a
man and a woman to delare themselves married. However the law nowadays
require a ceremony and certain words to be said. Hence we provide a
ceremony. So it was the first legal marriage since 1030. A couple of 100
years ago people would have been arrested and quite possibly tortured and
killed by the authorities for even attemting what we did. Fortunately
society has progressed since then, thus making it possible for us to go
public with our faith, without fear of persecution and having the right to
getting married according to our faith is very important to us. It confirms
that we have an equal right to live by our religion like any other religous
group in our country. Norway and Iceland are the only countries that
recognize our faith as a religion in a legal sence. If you can't comprehend
the significanse of that, I really feel sorry for you....
Rune
Dirk Bruere
> So basically the number of organized Asatru believers in
> Norway is somewhere in the range of "below 200 persons".
>
> I'll be charitable and double that number to 400 to allow
> for possible other and smaller groups.
> There is approximately 3.8 million members of the Norwegian
> state church, 70 300 members of the agnostic/atheist Humane-
> Ethical society and 268 097 persons belonging to other reli-
> gious groups than HES and the state church.
> The percentage of organized Asatru believers in Norway:
>
> 400 / (3 800 000 + 70 300 + 268 097) = 0.01% of the popu-
> lation.
> Too small to be statistically significant in any way, no
> matter if the percentage is bigger or smaller than in e.g.
> the US or New Zealand :-)
The main thing is that the numbers are increasing significantly.
If it follows the British pattern you can look forward to a doubling in
numbers every 18 months or so.
It will not take very long to become significant if that occurs.
Take a look at how long FFS has been in existence.
FFF
Dirk
Stein R.
>
> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3D2B67...@nospam.com...
>
> >
> > That is very much a matter of how you define "heathen wedding".
> > If you by "heathen" mean "non-religious", then agnostics and
> > atheists have gotten married at city hall for many, many years.
> > If you mean "non-christian", buddhists, sikhs and moslems have
> > also gotten married in Norway for years.
>
> I have very strong reason to doubt that
> the moslems, budhists and sikhs define
> themselves as heathen.
Indeed not. They might be classified as "heathens"
by some christians, though. "Heathen" is one of those
words that are very hard to define, and it means diffe-
rent things to different people.
How do *you* define heathen in this context ?
> > But it admittedly was the first marriage ceremony *ever*
> > in Norway where the person authorized to sign at the bottom
> > of the form as "officiating" was a registered "priest" of
> > some Asatru group.
>
> Foreningen Forn Sed is not a astru group, we are a folktru
> group that ammong others honor the Aesir.
In other words - what a non-believer would classify as
"Asatru", just like most of us lump a lot of somewhat
different beliefs under the label "Christian", "Buddhist"
or "Moslem".
> > They didn't have those formalities in
> > 1030 AD, so it cannot honestly be described as "the first
> > such ceremony since 1030" :-)
>
> Fiddlesticks!
>
> It was the first ceremony after Christianization to be
> recognized as legal by the Government of Norway. but
> you are right in saying that they did not have a ceremony
> of this kind back then. In those days it was enough for a
> man and a woman to delare themselves married. However the
> law nowadays require a ceremony and certain words to be
> said. Hence we provide a ceremony. So it was the first
> legal marriage since 1030.
Depends on how you define "marriage" and "recognized as
legal by the government of Norway" prior to 1030, as well
as why you feel a marriage before 1030 was more similar
to a modern marrage with a marriage license rather than
similar to a modern samboerskap (common law marriage) but
it's not an important point either way.
I am just pointing out that people, who didn't want to
get married in a christian ceremony, has had several
options which was legally pretty much (or totally) equi-
valent to a christian marriage for many years : getting
married at city hall, or just moving together without
major ceremonies, as in pre-christian times :-)
> A couple of 100 years ago people would have been arrested
> and quite possibly tortured and killed by the authorities
> for even attemting what we did.
Certainly in the 1600s. Maybe in the 1700s. Very doubtful
if you would have been tortured or killed for being a -
umm - "folktru believer" in the 1800s or 1900s. But again -
not a really important point. Certainly Norway in 2002 has
a lot more religious freedom (formal and practical) than
Norway in 1814 or Norway in the 1600s. As do most other
places in the western world
> Fortunately society has progressed since then, thus making
> it possible for us to go public with our faith, without
> fear of persecution and having the right to getting married
> according to our faith is very important to us. It confirms
> that we have an equal right to live by our religion like any
> other religous group in our country.
<Yawn>. Ya da. We have women priests. Gay and lesbian priests.
Pentecostals. Mormons. Sikhs, Moslems and Hindus. Nobody has
been charged with blasphemy for almost 40 years, as far as I
can remember (since Agnar Mykle). The shameful paragraph in
the 1814 constitution about not allowing jews and jesuits to
immigrate was struck down in the mid 1800s.
So what is the big fucking deal with people who wants to
invent a new religion based on whatever gods the vikings
worshipped ?
You are not persecuted by organized enemies. Most people
couldn't care less what your beliefs are, as long as you
don't bugger sheep or sacrifice virgins (assuming any virgins
still can be found in the country :-)
> Norway and Iceland are the only countries that recognize
> our faith as a religion in a legal sence. If you can't
> comprehend the significanse of that, I really feel sorry
> for you....
Significance for you ? It obviously is important to you.
Significance for society as a whole ? Totally underwhelming.
Grin,
Stein
Stein R.
Forn Sed: "we get one or two new members every month". Let us
say three per month for 18 months. 36 new members, in addition
to the 80 or so they already have. (80 + 36) / 80 = 1.45 times
as many in 18 months. Well short of a doubling.
Even if we assumed a doubling every year:
Year 1 : 80 members
Year 2 : 160 members
Year 3 : 320 members
Year 4 : 640 members
Year 5 : 1280 members
If you assume a geometric growth rate of 1.45 per year,
then after 5 years you would instead have (1.45)^5 =
approximately 6 times as many members as today - ie around
480 instead of 80.
But there isn't much that indicate that a doubling every
year (or even any form of geometrical growth at all) for
the foreseeable future is a realistic way to estimate mem-
bership.
Forn Sed has apparently been around for three years, and
in those three years they have managed to get around 80
members.
Bifrost apparently has been around for some 20 years, and
in 20 years they have managed to get around 100 members.
I don't see any particular reasons to assume geometrical
growth way into the future based on those numbers.
Grin,
Stein
Dirk Bruere
> Rune Bjørnsen wrote:
>
> So what is the big fucking deal with people who wants to
> invent a new religion based on whatever gods the vikings
> worshipped ?
The big deal for us is understandable - it is a significant step forward for
our religion.
Why are *you* giving it so much time if you don't care?
FFF
Dirk
Rune Bjørnsen
Thats the words the policemen actually used after the people who where there
had explained what was going on to them. The police allso added that they
had recived a compliant and thus had to check it out. All this according to
people that where there.
Rune
Rune Bjørnsen
"Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message....a lot of bullshit
Yes, organized heathens, bellonging to FFS or other organized Norse
Tradition heathens are not a significant part of Norwegian society. However,
the organized part is only a tiny percentage of people that consider
themselves Norse heathen.
And it is these people we would like to know about us. The rest of you,
well, if some of you happen to get curious and start to study the older
traditions and maybe find that this is right for you, thats allso nice.
Thats why the media coverage we recived, not only in Norway, but on Iceland
as well is so important to us, we are small, but would like to attract
members that ALLREADY share our faith. For that to happen we need som good
publicity. And if it so happens that the countries largest newspapers picked
up the story becouse they did not have other news to repport, so what? They
did, and now we are allready sending information about us to fellow heathens
that did not know that we existed before the newspapers told the story.
That people, including you, that does not share our beliefs find it silly,
we actually don't care a hoot about. I find the Xian beliefs and the whole
Church of Norway quite silly, but I'm pretty sure that the average Xian is
not very impressed by what I think of them. And certainly atheists don't
give a flying fuck. I know, I used to be one.
Another point you seem to have missed is that it is for US this is important
and significant. Before february this year, there was no other way than
having a civil ceremony to get legally married in this country if you did
not wan't to do it in the church of Norway, or one of the other religions.
Of course anyone could perform a marriage ceremony with all the religious
elements in it, and then go to some official and have the words required by
law read to you, before signing the legal documents. But why do that, when
you can have the whole shebang done at one place? Every other religion has
that right, why should we be denied it?
Another thing is that before 1969, a heathen religious society like hours
could not be recognized as a religion in the legal sense of the word. Hence
there was no organized and recognized by the government Norse heathens
before then. Read it again. Recognized by the Government. That comes with
certain rights that Norse heathens where denied right up to 33 years ago. It
might not be persecution, but it certainly is discrimination, don't you
think?
Another reason that it is so significant is that Norway and Iceland are the
first to recognize officially that our faith is a religion, with all the
rights that comes with it, including the right to arrange a legally binding
wedding within the ramifications of our own belief system. Will it have an
impact on Norwegian society as a whole?
Not very likely with the liberal society we live in at present time. Will it
have an impact on the Norse heathen community? It allready has, and
continues to do so, even beyond Norways borders. Just ask any of the
asatruar and other branches of the heathen faith that post here in ARA, or
other fora for the discussion of our faith.
Another thing is that after 1000 years of persecution, discrimination and
ridicule by mainstream society it's not at all strange that people are
afraid to admit to having a traditional norse heathen faith. Thus I stand by
my words, there are a lot more of us out there than statistics well ever be
able to tell us. So those numbers you can basicly stick somewhere in you
anatomy where the sun does not shine.
Organized Norse heathen religious groups are growing, the church are losing
members, thats the only fact those statistics are able to show. That the
wast majority of those leaving the church, leve it for other religions than
others, or becouse they are honest enough in their atheist ways to at least
get out of the church and live their lives independent of it, does not hurt
us at all. Why would we, after all, bother with having members that does not
believe in the same things we do?
Thats my final word in this discussion. You can rant on if you please, but I
won't throw away more time on it, as you probably won't change your mind
anyway, you being just as stubborn as any Norwegian, including myself...lol
Til års og fred
Rune Bjørnsen
FFS
Dirk Bruere
"Rune Bjørnsen" <sop...@chello.no> wrote in message
news:S3LW8.684$U32....@news01.chello.no...
> we actually don't care a hoot about. I find the Xian beliefs and the whole
> Church of Norway quite silly, but I'm pretty sure that the average Xian is
> not very impressed by what I think of them. And certainly atheists don't
> give a flying fuck. I know, I used to be one.
That's quite interesting.
Until my 30s I considered myself an atheist also. It was only after seeing
ARA that the old religion still existed did I realise what I was - Asatru.
I think that is starting to happen to many people - they do not know that
they are Heathen/Asatru until someone tells them what a Heathen is, and that
the religion still exists.
It once took a long time to gather a 'critical mass' of people and create a
consciousness of our existence in the public mind. Now, with the Net, that
period is much shorter. And that period is also shortened with every bit of
publicity.
Just having those wedding photos and information scattered on websites
across the world means that anyone who has a vague idea of something they
once read in the newspaper can find us easily.
FFF
Dirk
Kerry Forrest
--
"Communism means only working as hard as the laziest worker, Democracy means
only thinking as hard as the dumbest thinker"
E-Mail scanned for viruses by Norton
Anti-Virus 2002.
"Dirk Bruere" <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:agg0ep$leidp$1...@ID-120108.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Rune Bjørnsen" <sop...@chello.no> wrote in message
> news:S3LW8.684$U32....@news01.chello.no...
<snip>
> That's quite interesting.
> Until my 30s I considered myself an atheist also. It was only after seeing
> ARA that the old religion still existed did I realise what I was - Asatru.
>
I was exactly where Dirk was, and then I found my wany to asatru and ara,
and realized what was missing in my life. The faith I had no name for. It
was fate or luck that led me here, as no one every told me of it before I
found some web pages. Now I am where I belong.
Stein R.
<Grin>
> Yes, organized heathens, bellonging to FFS or other organized
> Norse Tradition heathens are not a significant part of Norwegian
> society.
Nicky and Dirk - read and learn.
> However, the organized part is only a tiny percentage of people
> that consider themselves Norse heathen.
You still have not defined "heathen" in any meaningful way.
Apparently you would like to claim the concept for people who
believe in new faiths based loosely on pre-christian belief
systems, as opposed to people who are agnostics or atheists.
> And it is these people we would like to know about us. The
> rest of you, well, if some of you happen to get curious
> and start to study the older traditions and maybe find that
> this is right for you, thats allso nice.
> Thats why the media coverage we recived, not only in Norway,
> but on Iceland as well is so important to us, we are small,
> but would like to attract members that ALLREADY share our
> faith. For that to happen we need som good publicity. And if
> it so happens that the countries largest newspapers picked
> up the story becouse they did not have other news to repport,
> so what? They did, and now we are allready sending information
> about us to fellow heathens that did not know that we existed
> before the newspapers told the story.
Good for you. You still have a way to go until you have as many
members as the local library branch down the road from where I
live, the local chess society or the local history club, but at
least you already have slightly more people than the parents'
association at my son's playschool, so who knows - maybe you one
day will be big enough that you get to the 0.x% of population
instead of 0.01% of population level :-)
> That people, including you, that does not share our beliefs
> find it silly, we actually don't care a hoot about. I find
> the Xian beliefs and the whole Church of Norway quite silly,
> but I'm pretty sure that the average Xian is not very impressed
> by what I think of them.
> And certainly atheists don't give a flying fuck. I know, I
> used to be one.
>
> Another point you seem to have missed is that it is for US
> this is important and significant.
Nope. I have acknowledged that it may be significant for a
very small group of people, but it is totally uninteresting
for the vast majority of us.
You also acknowledge this - some nuts from abroad seem to
think that it is just a matter of time before the rest of
us convert to some variety of Asatru.
> Before february this year, there was no other way than having
> a civil ceremony to get legally married in this country if you
> did not wan't to do it in the church of Norway, or one of the
> other religions.
I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to find
this to be a total outrage. The 70 000+ persons who are members
of agnostic/atheistic Human-Etisk forbund seem to have survived
the "ordeal" of signing the papers at city hall and then having
a party/celebration somewhere else. The same goes for the number
of people who have entered into registered gay partnerships at
city hall.
So I fail to see why it is such an outrage that a tiny group
of people would have to go through the same routine.
> Of course anyone could perform a marriage ceremony with all
> the religious elements in it, and then go to some official
> and have the words required by law read to you, before signing
> the legal documents. But why do that, when you can have the
> whole shebang done at one place? Every other religion has that
> right, why should we be denied it?
The more relevant question is : why should we mix the legal
paperwork to *register* a marriage with the blessing ceremony
of one or more religions at all ?
Registering a marriage (or a gay partnership, for that matter)
is a legal/bureaucratic function, that should be performed at
city hall anyways, instead of having a bunch of half assed priests
of various faiths do the paperwork.
Then you (and everybody else) can have whatever ceremonies of
blessing as you like.
What we need, IMO, is more separation between church and state,
not more "churches".
> Another thing is that before 1969, a heathen religious society
> like hours could not be recognized as a religion in the legal
> sense of the word. Hence there was no organized and recognized
> by the government Norse heathens before then. Read it again.
> Recognized by the Government. That comes with certain rights
> that Norse heathens where denied right up to 33 years ago. It
> might not be persecution, but it certainly is discrimination,
> don't you think?
Certainly. But in 33 years, the number of members of organized
Asatru type societies seems to have gone no higher than less
than 200, so there cannot have been all that many people who
was cruelly oppressed in the first place ... :-)
> Another reason that it is so significant is that Norway and
> Iceland are the first to recognize officially that our faith
> is a religion, with all the rights that comes with it,
> including the right to arrange a legally binding wedding
> within the ramifications of our own belief system. Will it
> have an impact on Norwegian society as a whole?
>
> Not very likely with the liberal society we live in at
> present time. Will it have an impact on the Norse heathen
> community? It allready has, and continues to do so, even
> beyond Norways borders. Just ask any of the asatruar and
> other branches of the heathen faith that post here in ARA,
> or other fora for the discussion of our faith.
>
> Another thing is that after 1000 years of persecution,
> discrimination and ridicule by mainstream society it's
> not at all strange that people are afraid to admit to
> having a traditional norse heathen faith. Thus I stand by
> my words, there are a lot more of us out there than
> statistics will ever be able to tell us.
Ah - the classic line of a Norwegian letter to the editor:
"I, and a lot of other people too, think that ...." :-)
(Sorry - just couldn't resist that one)
I will accept the membership numbers you give without
asking for proof of them. But the "there are a lot more
of us than the statistics can ever show" argument I will
not buy w/o proof.
If you still haven't been able to collect more than 200
organized members in a generation, in a society you your-
self describe as pretty liberal, then there probably is
not all that many more potensial members to be found.
I wouldn't be surprised if you guys can double membership
from say 200 to 4-500 in the next say 10 years of organi-
zation building and membership drives, but I would be
rather surprised if you were able to gather significantly
more members than that.
> So those numbers you can basicly stick somewhere in you
> anatomy where the sun does not shine. Organized Norse
> heathen religious groups are growing, the church are
> losing members, thats the only fact those statistics
> are able to show.
As well as the fact that there were about 14 000 marriages
performed in the Church of Norway/State church/Whatever you
want to call "Den norske kirke" in English vs 1 marriage per-
formed in an Asatru type of setting, and that the church
still had about 3 800 000 members, as opposed to less than
200 for organized Asatru type associations :-)
If you just look at the derivate (ie the rate of change),
you don't get the whole picture. A tiny group can grow at
a fast rate of change and still be tiny.
> That the wast majority of those leaving the church, leve it
> for other religions than others, or becouse they are honest
> enough in their atheist ways to at least get out of the
> church and live their lives independent of it, does not hurt
> us at all. Why would we, after all, bother with having members
> that does not believe in the same things we do?
>
> Thats my final word in this discussion. You can rant on if
> you please, but I won't throw away more time on it, as you
> probably won't change your mind anyway, you being just as
> stubborn as any Norwegian, including myself...lol
LOL :-)
You may not believe this, but I actually have a lot more
respect for you than I have for kiwis or yanks that mix in
a few words of broken Norwegian in their English while
making wild claims about how Asatru has been kept secretly
alive and passed down from father to son in the Nordic
countries for 1000 years, how the ceremonies are all ori-
ginal, how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
who are believers in the Nordic countries and how significant
this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
I have no problem with your pretty realistic appraisal
of the current situation in Norway, and I respect your
right to have whatever religion you like, even though I
find some of your fellow Asatru believers a little hard
to take seriously.
> Til års og fred
> Rune Bjørnsen
> FFS
Peace,
Stein
Stein R.
Because Nick Smith (aka "Nik Warrenson") sent me several
emails with requests to comment on the issue, and cross-
posted the original thread between a.r.a (which I don't read)
and s.c.n (which I do read).
Grin,
Stein
Stein R.
>
> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3D2B6E...@nospam.com...
> > But if anyone who actually *was* present is reading this -
> > feel free to tell me if the policeman or woman actually did
> > said "we are *proud* that you are having a blot in our juris-
> > diction" or if he or she just said something along the lines
> > of: "nothing illegal about having a blot, sorry about the inter-
> > uption, we'll leave you in peace", which is the kind of stuff
> > the police is supposed to say if it turns out that people they
> > are checking out are not involved in any illegal activity.
> >
> > Nick's version sounds rather like wishful thinking from afar.
>
> Thats the words the policemen actually used after the people
> who where there had explained what was going on to them. The
> police allso added that they had recived a compliant and thus
> had to check it out. All this according to people that where
> there.
Okay, I'll take your word for it, even if the apparent
ringing endorsement of "we are *proud* that you are having
a blot/party in our jurisdiction" part sounded like wishful
thinking to me.
I had no problem seeing that the police would need to
apologize for interupting w/o cause - it is just basic
manners to say "sorry for interupting, we had to check
it out when we received a complaint".
Grin,
Stein
Nygaard
...
> Mmm - I meant that the whole "heathen marriage" thing seemed
>weird. I doubt if most of the people who saw the news about it
>took it very seriously - it was reported as "light summertime
>amusement" type of news, not as "new option when getting married".
The usual reaction to anything religious appearing the in the public
or "intrapersonal" sphere.
> Had it happened outside the "cucumber season" (when the news-
>papers have so little real news to report that they report on
>funny shaped potatoes and cucumbers found by local farmers :-),
>it probably wouldn't have made national news.
Hard to say; it is, after all, about a real legal matter - not just
hippies on a holme somewhere...
> I doubt that 75% "support" asatru marriages as such. Asatru
>(IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
>culture - it probably has a lot more followers in e.g the US
>than in Norway. In the US it may be exotic. In Norway it just
>looks somewhat silly.
Interesting opinion. I just returned from Roskilde festival. An
amazing number of people were wearing torshammers this year -
noticeably more than last year. This doesn't prove anything, but it's
an observation to remember. It seems to me that young scandinavians
consider religion a deeply personal matter, if a matter appropriate
for discussion at all. The past is in fashion, in a subculture that
has already proven itself long-lived.
> I suspect most of us just think of Nick Smith's wedding (if
>we think of it at all) as the equivalent of just filing the
>papers at city hall. The only difference is that you don't
>have to turn in the paperwork personally - your toastmaster
>(ie gode or whatever you call him) can do it for you.
That's probably true of the majority, yes. But then there's all the
rest. I've been thinking of joining the Forn Sed for a long time, but
have not seen a real need, and could never find the time to figure out
how to officialy quit the state church. Maybe when another one of
those big life ceremonies come up. That's when we usually turn to the
religious institutions in any case.
> But be that as it may - jolly good luck to Nick and his
>bride. City hall or cathedral, country church or mountain
>top, diving from an airplane or scubadiving, having the
>ceremony done by a catholic, a protestant, a moslem, a
>sikh, an agnostic, an atheist or whatever - you get married
>anyways if the proper forms are filled out correctly :-)
>
> Grin,
> Stein, happily married for 5 years in a month or so
Would also like to join the happywishers; once again I have missed a
small historic event.
To long life and luck for Nik and Morag.
Anders
...
Wild Colonial Boy
Ann Fox) wrote:
>Wild Colonial Boy <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:07:15 GMT, thinkbigs...@yahoo.com (Keera
>> Ann Fox) wrote:
>>
>> >Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:3D2A01...@nospam.com...
>> >> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > news:3D29FC...@nospam.com...
>>
>> <cut>
>>
>> >The old Norse religion is just another thing kids have to learn to get a
>> >grade in history along with other boring and irrelevant stuff like
>> >Vikings and World War II.
>>
>> World War II history is still relevant to today. Perish the thought
>> that we might forget it - you can't mean that.
>
>Yes, I do mean that. _I_ grew up with a grandfather who could give me
>first-hand accounts of the war at sea, so WWII became personal. But
>today's kids can relate as much to WWII as I can to WWI, i.e. very
>little, if at all.
The lessons learned *need* to be retained.
>> If we were to forget the manner in which Hitler made his way to power
>
>Through a democratic election.
You really think so? I think that you do need some more education
about WWII for all your protestations that it is irrelevant.
>> then we might miss another attempting to do the same thing.
>
>I agree.
>
>Today's world does try to counter prejudice that breeds fear, which left
>unchecked can lead to hate. (Humans always hate that which makes them
>feel small.) WWII alone cannot teach that lesson in today's world,
>though.
I did not claim that.
>My personal opinion (and personal experience) is that history is wasted
>on children. You need to be an adult, with some experience of what
>drives people, to understand how history comes about -- why people made
>the choices they made at the time. The best history teacher teaches
>about the people and the whys, not a list of places and dates.
Myself, I had a keen interest in History that started when I was about
13. I have a particular interest in the history of Western Europe all
the way from the stone age till now.
>> Re: Vikings, well if you don't get it then there's nothing that I can
>> say to you for explaining roots to someone who doesn't understand
>> already is like trying to explain blue to a blind person.
>
>It's not what _I_ get. It's how history is taught in Norwegian schools.
>(I'm not Norwegian, BTW. I just live here, and I did go to school here.)
Right.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
>Wild Colonial Boy wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:55:01 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Asatru IMO, obviously) is rather irrelevant in modern Norwegian
>>>culture
>>
>> Indeed - *your opinion*. It was enough that it drew the attention
>> of the Minister for Families and that it was the FIRST ever legally
>> binding Heathen wedding since the Battle of Stiklestad 1030AD.
>
> That is very much a matter of how you define "heathen wedding".
>If you by "heathen" mean "non-religious", then agnostics and
>atheists have gotten married at city hall for many, many years.
>If you mean "non-christian", buddhists, sikhs and moslems have
>also gotten married in Norway for years.
Heathen means someone who follows the religion practiced, in this case
Norway, in the country before the arrival of Christianity. Being more
specific Heathen was used by Christians as 'Unbelievers' when really,
to them it meant, 'Unbelievers in the White Christ'. The term
'heathen' or variants on that e.g. 'heythi' was almost universally
perjoratively used by Christians for the believers in the
Pre-Christian religion in Norway therefore we claim the term.
Actually, it means something like, 'believer in what he/she can see on
the heath' rather than someone who believes in a ghostly God who
resides in heaven with jesus and the holy spirit.
> But it admittedly was the first marriage ceremony *ever*
>in Norway where the person authorized to sign at the bottom
>of the form as "officiating" was a registered "priest" of
>some Asatru group. They didn't have those formalities in
>1030 AD, so it cannot honestly be described as "the first
>such ceremony since 1030" :-)
Simple logic implies otherwise:
Prior to 1030AD Norway was Heathen
Heathenry was part and parcel of the way people lived back then in
many ways.
Marriages occurred before 1030AD in Norway
Marriages were legal agreements laid out and created by the civil
authorities who also happened to be Godi's
Therefore:
The marriages that occurred in Norway before 1030AD were Heathen in
nature.
Marriages happened
Nik
Dirk Bruere
> > > So what is the big fucking deal with people who wants to
> > > invent a new religion based on whatever gods the vikings
> > > worshipped ?
> >
> > The big deal for us is understandable - it is a significant
> > step forward for our religion.
> >
> > Why are *you* giving it so much time if you don't care?
>
> Because Nick Smith (aka "Nik Warrenson") sent me several
> emails with requests to comment on the issue, and cross-
> posted the original thread between a.r.a (which I don't read)
> and s.c.n (which I do read).
Well, enjoy yourself then.
I certainly enjoy talking about Asatru.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
> > However, the organized part is only a tiny percentage of people
> > that consider themselves Norse heathen.
>
> You still have not defined "heathen" in any meaningful way.
Heathen is the Germanic term for the Latin 'pagan'.
In our context it refers to those who follow the Gods of N Europe. May or
may not include the Celtic pantheon.
> Apparently you would like to claim the concept for people who
> believe in new faiths based loosely on pre-christian belief
> systems, as opposed to people who are agnostics or atheists.
Close, but not specific enough.
> day will be big enough that you get to the 0.x% of population
> instead of 0.01% of population level :-)
I think one day we will get to about the 2-3% level.
FFF
Dirk
Wild Colonial Boy
<Jarl...@sympatico.com> wrote:
>--
>"Communism means only working as hard as the laziest worker, Democracy means
>only thinking as hard as the dumbest thinker"
>E-Mail scanned for viruses by Norton
>Anti-Virus 2002.
>"Dirk Bruere" <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:agg0ep$leidp$1...@ID-120108.news.dfncis.de...
>>
>> "Rune Bjørnsen" <sop...@chello.no> wrote in message
>> news:S3LW8.684$U32....@news01.chello.no...
><snip>
>> That's quite interesting.
>> Until my 30s I considered myself an atheist also. It was only after seeing
>> ARA that the old religion still existed did I realise what I was - Asatru.
>>
>I was exactly where Dirk was, and then I found my wany to asatru and ara,
>and realized what was missing in my life. The faith I had no name for. It
>was fate or luck that led me here, as no one every told me of it before I
>found some web pages. Now I am where I belong.
As am I.
Bless
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
>Rune Bjørnsen wrote:
>>
>> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message....a lot of bullshit
>
> <Grin>
>
>> Yes, organized heathens, bellonging to FFS or other organized
>> Norse Tradition heathens are not a significant part of Norwegian
>> society.
>
> Nicky and Dirk - read and learn.
>
>> However, the organized part is only a tiny percentage of people
>> that consider themselves Norse heathen.
>
> You still have not defined "heathen" in any meaningful way.
I have. You just haven't seen it.
>Apparently you would like to claim the concept for people who
>believe in new faiths based loosely
What justification do you have for this perjorative adjective?
>on pre-christian belief systems, as opposed to people who are agnostics or atheists.
Indeed.
>> And it is these people we would like to know about us. The
>> rest of you, well, if some of you happen to get curious
>> and start to study the older traditions and maybe find that
>> this is right for you, thats allso nice.
>> Thats why the media coverage we recived, not only in Norway,
>> but on Iceland as well is so important to us, we are small,
>> but would like to attract members that ALLREADY share our
>> faith. For that to happen we need som good publicity. And if
>> it so happens that the countries largest newspapers picked
>> up the story becouse they did not have other news to repport,
>> so what? They did, and now we are allready sending information
>> about us to fellow heathens that did not know that we existed
>> before the newspapers told the story.
>
> Good for you. You still have a way to go until you have as many
>members as the local library branch down the road from where I
>live, the local chess society or the local history club, but at
>least you already have slightly more people than the parents'
>association at my son's playschool, so who knows - maybe you one
>day will be big enough that you get to the 0.x% of population
>instead of 0.01% of population level :-)
Oooohhh cutting. I'm learning
By the way was that you on the flight from Prestwick to Torp a few
weeks ago?
>> That people, including you, that does not share our beliefs
>> find it silly, we actually don't care a hoot about. I find
>> the Xian beliefs and the whole Church of Norway quite silly,
>> but I'm pretty sure that the average Xian is not very impressed
>> by what I think of them.
>> And certainly atheists don't give a flying fuck. I know, I
>> used to be one.
>>
>> Another point you seem to have missed is that it is for US
>> this is important and significant.
>
> Nope. I have acknowledged that it may be significant for a
>very small group of people, but it is totally uninteresting
>for the vast majority of us.
>
> You also acknowledge this - some nuts from abroad seem to
>think that it is just a matter of time before the rest of
>us convert to some variety of Asatru.
That is ignorant of them.
>> Before february this year, there was no other way than having
>> a civil ceremony to get legally married in this country if you
>> did not wan't to do it in the church of Norway, or one of the
>> other religions.
>
> I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to find
>this to be a total outrage. The 70 000+ persons who are members
>of agnostic/atheistic Human-Etisk forbund seem to have survived
>the "ordeal" of signing the papers at city hall and then having
>a party/celebration somewhere else. The same goes for the number
>of people who have entered into registered gay partnerships at
>city hall.
>
> So I fail to see why it is such an outrage that a tiny group
>of people would have to go through the same routine.
Its not an outrage but a claim to equal recognition as a religious
group. Really Stein, you're use of perjorative adjectives does nothing
to convince me of the rightness of your argument.
>> Of course anyone could perform a marriage ceremony with all
>> the religious elements in it, and then go to some official
>> and have the words required by law read to you, before signing
>> the legal documents. But why do that, when you can have the
>> whole shebang done at one place? Every other religion has that
>> right, why should we be denied it?
>
> The more relevant question is : why should we mix the legal
>paperwork to *register* a marriage with the blessing ceremony
>of one or more religions at all ?
Thats another question. What we are claiming is equal recognition in
the law to the other already extant religious groups , in this case,
Norway. What can possibly be wrong with this?
> Registering a marriage (or a gay partnership, for that matter)
>is a legal/bureaucratic function, that should be performed at
>city hall anyways, instead of having a bunch of half assed priests
>of various faiths do the paperwork.
Again perjorative language. It does nothing to convince but only
antagonizes those who don't see through it.
> Then you (and everybody else) can have whatever ceremonies of
>blessing as you like.
Well thank you.
> What we need, IMO, is more separation between church and state,
>not more "churches".
I agree with seperation of church and state. In this way I am
definitely a secularist.
>> Another thing is that before 1969, a heathen religious society
>> like hours could not be recognized as a religion in the legal
>> sense of the word. Hence there was no organized and recognized
>> by the government Norse heathens before then. Read it again.
>> Recognized by the Government. That comes with certain rights
>> that Norse heathens where denied right up to 33 years ago. It
>> might not be persecution, but it certainly is discrimination,
>> don't you think?
>
> Certainly. But in 33 years, the number of members of organized
>Asatru type societies seems to have gone no higher than less
>than 200, so there cannot have been all that many people who
>was cruelly oppressed in the first place ... :-)
Not in living memory but you know yourself, that terrible torture did
go on in and around the events of 1030AD.
>> Another reason that it is so significant is that Norway and
>> Iceland are the first to recognize officially that our faith
>> is a religion, with all the rights that comes with it,
>> including the right to arrange a legally binding wedding
>> within the ramifications of our own belief system. Will it
>> have an impact on Norwegian society as a whole?
>>
>> Not very likely with the liberal society we live in at
>> present time. Will it have an impact on the Norse heathen
>> community? It allready has, and continues to do so, even
>> beyond Norways borders. Just ask any of the asatruar and
>> other branches of the heathen faith that post here in ARA,
>> or other fora for the discussion of our faith.
>>
>> Another thing is that after 1000 years of persecution,
>> discrimination and ridicule by mainstream society it's
>> not at all strange that people are afraid to admit to
>> having a traditional norse heathen faith. Thus I stand by
>> my words, there are a lot more of us out there than
>> statistics will ever be able to tell us.
>
> Ah - the classic line of a Norwegian letter to the editor:
>"I, and a lot of other people too, think that ...." :-)
>(Sorry - just couldn't resist that one)
No logical impossibility in the idea that it is actually true.
> I will accept the membership numbers you give without
>asking for proof of them. But the "there are a lot more
>of us than the statistics can ever show" argument I will
>not buy w/o proof.
No logical impossibility in the idea that it is actually true.
> If you still haven't been able to collect more than 200
>organized members in a generation,
FFS is 4 years old.
> in a society you your-self describe as pretty liberal, then there probably is
>not all that many more potensial members to be found.
The requests to join by virtue of the news reports would indicate
otherwise but then again you wouldn't know because its not you thats
receiving the emails requesting membership is it?
> I wouldn't be surprised if you guys can double membership
>from say 200 to 4-500 in the next say 10 years of organi-
>zation building and membership drives, but I would be
>rather surprised if you were able to gather significantly
>more members than that.
That would be fine. Genuine members who join of their own free will in
full knowledge of the sort of fellowship that we offer to those of
like mind might not reach those figures but I can imagine more than
that number attending festivals that we set up.
>> So those numbers you can basicly stick somewhere in you
>> anatomy where the sun does not shine. Organized Norse
>> heathen religious groups are growing, the church are
>> losing members, thats the only fact those statistics
>> are able to show.
>
> As well as the fact that there were about 14 000 marriages
>performed in the Church of Norway/State church/Whatever you
>want to call "Den norske kirke" in English vs 1 marriage per-
>formed in an Asatru type of setting,
Asatru style wedding numbers are accelerating far in excess of C o N
weddings in 2002.
Spin spin spin. Soon there will be two legal Heathen weddings in
Norway. That is an infinite % increase in heathen wedding numbers.
> and that the church
>still had about 3 800 000 members, as opposed to less than
>200 for organized Asatru type associations :-)
So? See above re:spin
> If you just look at the derivate (ie the rate of change),
>you don't get the whole picture. A tiny group can grow at
>a fast rate of change and still be tiny.
Indeed. So what's your point. We don't mind having small numbers of
genuine people rather than fakers like the Christian churches do.
>> That the wast majority of those leaving the church, leve it
>> for other religions than others, or becouse they are honest
>> enough in their atheist ways to at least get out of the
>> church and live their lives independent of it, does not hurt
>> us at all. Why would we, after all, bother with having members
>> that does not believe in the same things we do?
>>
>> Thats my final word in this discussion. You can rant on if
>> you please, but I won't throw away more time on it, as you
>> probably won't change your mind anyway, you being just as
>> stubborn as any Norwegian, including myself...lol
>
> LOL :-)
>
> You may not believe this, but I actually have a lot more
>respect for you than I have for kiwis or yanks that mix in
>a few words of broken Norwegian in their English while
>making wild claims about how Asatru has been kept secretly
>alive and passed down from father to son in the Nordic
>countries for 1000 years,
Did I say that? I don't think so.
> how the ceremonies are all original,
Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments. As such
you're not doing well here Stein.
> how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
>who are believers in the Nordic countries
Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments. As such
you're not doing well here Stein.
> and how significant this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
It has *some* significance obviously if your minister for families
comments on it to the largest Internet newspaper in Norway.
> I have no problem with your pretty realistic appraisal
>of the current situation in Norway, and I respect your
>right to have whatever religion you like, even though I
>find some of your fellow Asatru believers a little hard
>to take seriously.
I don't care whether you take me seriously Stein
and
I read all of your posting and didn't learn a single thing that I
didn't already know.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
Time will tell. Till then this argument is dormant.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
Thanks Anders. You did indeed miss an awesome little event. You can
look at the pictures on:
http://www.bt.no/innenriks/article.jhtml?articleID=94454
http://forn-sed.no/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album02
Bless
Nik
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Looks like a decent little arrangement. Lucky with the weather, too.
Many happy years (and it seems y'all already have proved able to
produce a cute kid).
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
bowman
>
> If you still haven't been able to collect more than 200
> organized members in a generation, in a society you your-
> self describe as pretty liberal, then there probably is
> not all that many more potensial members to be found.
As the USMC says, "we're looking for a few good men."
Grimnir
As we in the Army used to remind the Marines: they're still looking. ;-) I
used to have a list of Marine jokes taped to the filing cabinet in my
office where only a person sitting in my chair would see them. Ones like:
Q: The Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, and a smart Marine are walking down the
street and notice a hundred dollar bill lying on the ground. Who picks it
up?
A: There's no such thing as Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or a Smart
Marine.
Now my boss was a Nam Vet and Marine officer whose father had been commander
of Marine Forces Pacific Command. One day I walked into my office and
there was the boss, sitting in my chair looking at the filing cabinet! :-o
But on a serious note: Thanks USMC.
--
Með frjálsu, Steven
What is Truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside
from Truth I could keep to the Truth and leave God. - Meister Eckhart
Wild Colonial Boy
Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote:
>In article <3d2c16fb...@news.eircom.net>,
>Wild Colonial Boy <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>http://forn-sed.no/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album02
>
>Looks like a decent little arrangement. Lucky with the weather, too.
>Many happy years (and it seems y'all already have proved able to
>produce a cute kid).
Thanks Leif. We're trying for more :)
Bless
Nik
Rune Bjørnsen
"Nygaard" <olavkBRØGLEBRØGLEBRØGL...@online.no> wrote in message
> That's probably true of the majority, yes. But then there's all the
> rest. I've been thinking of joining the Forn Sed for a long time, but
> have not seen a real need, and could never find the time to figure out
> how to officialy quit the state church.
Thats easy and FFS will even e-mail you a form you can use. Then send it to
the church you bellong to now, or to the church where you where baptized
allong with a copy of your "baptizing certificate". You don't have to worry
about seeing a priest or any other person that will damn you to hell, or try
to convert you *grin*
>Maybe when another one of
> those big life ceremonies come up. That's when we usually turn to the
> religious institutions in any case.
When you feel ready, we'll be here :-)
If you wanna check us out a bit before taking the plunge you are more than
welcome to one (or several) of our Blots. One does not have to be a member
to participate in them (or any other thing we arrange). Blots and other
events are usually announced at the front page of our web page at
http://www.forn-sed.no a month ahead of the event. The next one will be the
winter blot in mid-october somewhere in or near Oslo.
Rune Bjørnsen
Dirk Bruere
>
> "Nygaard" <olavkBRØGLEBRØGLEBRØGL...@online.no> wrote in message
>
> > That's probably true of the majority, yes. But then there's all the
> > rest. I've been thinking of joining the Forn Sed for a long time, but
> > have not seen a real need, and could never find the time to figure out
> > how to officialy quit the state church.
>
> Thats easy and FFS will even e-mail you a form you can use. Then send it
to
> the church you bellong to now, or to the church where you where baptized
> allong with a copy of your "baptizing certificate". You don't have to
worry
> about seeing a priest or any other person that will damn you to hell, or
try
> to convert you *grin*
Given one has to go through all that in Norway it's a wonder you have any
members at all!
Most other places all one has to do is say - 'I am Asatru'.
You've definately got 80 *very* hard core members!
FFF
Dirk
Dan or Amy
"Dirk Bruere" <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote
> Given one has to go through all that in Norway it's a wonder you have any
> members at all!
> Most other places all one has to do is say - 'I am Asatru'.
>
> You've definately got 80 *very* hard core members!
>
> FFF
> Dirk
In the U. S. if one is ever a member of a church, you are kept on the
membership rolls for life unless specifically requesting in writing to be
removed from the membership rolls or being officially expelled. You're just
considered an inactive member. This is probably not well known and many
people are probably still members of numerous different churches without
realizing it. Makes the church numbers look good. I came across the info by
doing geneology.
Dan
Rune Bjørnsen
> >
> > Thats easy and FFS will even e-mail you a form you can use. Then send it
> to
> > the church you bellong to now, or to the church where you where baptized
> > allong with a copy of your "baptizing certificate". You don't have to
> worry
> > about seeing a priest or any other person that will damn you to hell, or
> try
> > to convert you *grin*
>
> Given one has to go through all that in Norway it's a wonder you have any
> members at all!
> Most other places all one has to do is say - 'I am Asatru'.
>
> You've definately got 80 *very* hard core members!
In your and my eyes thats enough here as well. But it's simple fact that
most Norwegians are baptized into, and hence members of the CoN. And since
all religious societies have the right to government funds, based on the
number of members, hence there is law saying that one can not be a member
of two religious societies at the same time. But this "difficulty" is allso
the main reason why most people don't give a shit, and stay with the church.
That was the case with me. I was an atheist and did not give a flying shit
about where I was a member. That continued for several years after I
discovered "Asatru/ folktru". I only got the paperwork done after I decided
to join FFS. Not many years ago (i have a suspician they still do it), the
CoN actually enrolled every person born in Norway into their membership
records. It was just assumed that you would be a member, unless your parents
enroled you into some other religious organisation.
But beurocracy in this country is horrendous some times. Just ask what Nik
had to go trough just to get all the proper forms and papers he needed to
get hitched :-p
Rune
Stein R.
>
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 05:05:09 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> By the way was that you on the flight from Prestwick to Torp a few
> weeks ago?
Is it the second or third time you ask that question now ? No,
I was not on a flight from Prestwick to Torp a few weeks ago.
> I read all of your posting and didn't learn a single thing that I
> didn't already know.
Well, now you at least have learned that you are not good
at identifying random airplane passengers :-)
Stein
Doug Freyburger
>
> > Also congratulations to FFS for the achievement and good publicity on
> > the event. You beat us by a couple of weeks :)
>
> Really? Bifrost is about to perform a wedding as well? The more the
> merrier. Very good. Please pass on my best wishes to the happy couple.
A correspondent on an Asatru mailing list I subscribe to claims Bifrost
has performed several. I wonder if he means civil wedding ceremonies with
Asatru content.
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger
Stein R.
>
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 05:05:09 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Rune Bjørnsen wrote:
> >>
> >> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message....a lot of bullshit
> >
> > <Grin>
> >
>> believe in new faiths based loosely
>
> What justification do you have for this perjorative adjective?
>
>>on pre-christian belief systems, as opposed to people who
>> are agnostics or atheists.
>
> Indeed.
What "perjorative adjective" ? "based loosely" ? Would
you care to make the claim that you have authenticated
sources that describe *exactly* the beliefs held by and
ceremonies used by the vikings in the 11th century, and
that your own beliefs and ceremonies are an *exact* copy
of the original ones ?
> >> Before february this year, there was no other way than having
> >> a civil ceremony to get legally married in this country if you
> >> did not wan't to do it in the church of Norway, or one of the
> >> other religions.
> >
> > I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to find
> >this to be a total outrage. The 70 000+ persons who are members
> >of agnostic/atheistic Human-Etisk forbund seem to have survived
> >the "ordeal" of signing the papers at city hall and then having
> >a party/celebration somewhere else. The same goes for the number
> >of people who have entered into registered gay partnerships at
> >city hall.
> >
> > So I fail to see why it is such an outrage that a tiny group
> >of people would have to go through the same routine.
>
> Its not an outrage but a claim to equal recognition as a religious
> group. Really Stein, you're use of perjorative adjectives does
> nothing to convince me of the rightness of your argument.
Again, what "perjorative" adjective do you object to this time ?
"Tiny" ? A group of less than 200 people out of 4 million people
*is* tiny by any objective measure.
> >> Of course anyone could perform a marriage ceremony with all
> >> the religious elements in it, and then go to some official
> >> and have the words required by law read to you, before signing
> >> the legal documents. But why do that, when you can have the
> >> whole shebang done at one place? Every other religion has that
> >> right, why should we be denied it?
> >
> > The more relevant question is : why should we mix the legal
> >paperwork to *register* a marriage with the blessing ceremony
> >of one or more religions at all ?
>
> Thats another question. What we are claiming is equal recog-
> nition in the law to the other already extant religious groups,
> in this case, Norway. What can possibly be wrong with this?
Nothing at all *wrong* with it. It just isn't nearly as important
as you seem to want to believe it is.
> > Registering a marriage (or a gay partnership, for that matter)
> >is a legal/bureaucratic function, that should be performed at
> >city hall anyways, instead of having a bunch of half assed priests
> >of various faiths do the paperwork.
>
> Again perjorative language. It does nothing to convince but only
> antagonizes those who don't see through it.
I see that you have bought a new record with a bad track - you
seem to repeat "perjorative" a lot today.
> > Then you (and everybody else) can have whatever ceremonies of
> >blessing as you like.
>
> Well thank you.
You are welcome.
> >> Another thing is that before 1969, a heathen religious society
> >> like hours could not be recognized as a religion in the legal
> >> sense of the word. Hence there was no organized and recognized
> >> by the government Norse heathens before then. Read it again.
> >> Recognized by the Government. That comes with certain rights
> >> that Norse heathens where denied right up to 33 years ago. It
> >> might not be persecution, but it certainly is discrimination,
> >> don't you think?
> >
> > Certainly. But in 33 years, the number of members of organized
> >Asatru type societies seems to have gone no higher than less
> >than 200, so there cannot have been all that many people who
> >was cruelly oppressed in the first place ... :-)
>
> Not in living memory but you know yourself, that terrible
> torture did go on in and around the events of 1030AD.
Well, boo-hoo. "Help, my great-great-great-great-great-etc
grandparents were being oppressed a thousand years ago" :-)
Quite apart from the fact that the christians actually lost
the battle of Stiklestad in 1030, and king Olav (St Olav)
got killed in the fighting. I expect that some of my wife's
ancestors helped fight Olav that day - branches of her
family come from the area where the battle was (Stiklestad in
Verdal valley).
So it wasn't a totally onesided thing. And of course, most
people forget that we had much worse things happening to our
ancestors way *after* 1030 - we had the bitter civil wars in
the 1100s and we had the black plague of the 1300s. The civil
wars and the black plague killed off independent Norway for
500 years or so.
The change to christianity, which was somewhat violent in
Norway (partly for religious reasons, but more to break the
power of the local earls and petty kings and give the nati-
onal king and the church more power), and pretty peaceful
on Iceland (where they voted on the issue at Thingvellir
and decided to adopt the new religion en masse) didn't cause
any such massive disruptions to the population size as the
civil wars and the black plague did in Norway.
> > I will accept the membership numbers you give without
> >asking for proof of them. But the "there are a lot more
> >of us than the statistics can ever show" argument I will
> >not buy w/o proof.
>
> No logical impossibility in the idea that it is actually true.
Sorry, I only speak Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, German and
English. I don't have time to try to decode gibberish senten-
ces.
> > If you still haven't been able to collect more than 200
> >organized members in a generation,
>
> FFS is 4 years old.
Bifrost was formed in the 1980s. That to me is about 20 years
ago.
>> in a society you your-self describe as pretty liberal,
>> then there probably is not all that many more potensial
>> members to be found.
>
> The requests to join by virtue of the news reports would
> indicate otherwise but then again you wouldn't know because
> its not you thats receiving the emails requesting membership
> is it?
Maybe concepts like "probably not all that many" are too hard
for you to understand.
> Spin spin spin. Soon there will be two legal Heathen weddings in
> Norway. That is an infinite % increase in heathen wedding numbers.
Good math. Not.
> > If you just look at the derivate (ie the rate of change),
> >you don't get the whole picture. A tiny group can grow at
> >a fast rate of change and still be tiny.
>
> Indeed. So what's your point.
My point is that your group has been insignificant, still is
insignificant and probably will continue to be totally insigni-
ficant for the foreseeable future, despite matematically chall-
enged morons who believe that they can estimate *future* growth
as "infinite" or "doubles every year" or similar claptrap.
> >> That the wast majority of those leaving the church, leve it
> >> for other religions than others, or becouse they are honest
> >> enough in their atheist ways to at least get out of the
> >> church and live their lives independent of it, does not hurt
> >> us at all. Why would we, after all, bother with having members
> >> that does not believe in the same things we do?
> >>
> >> Thats my final word in this discussion. You can rant on if
> >> you please, but I won't throw away more time on it, as you
> >> probably won't change your mind anyway, you being just as
> >> stubborn as any Norwegian, including myself...lol
> >
> > LOL :-)
> >
> > You may not believe this, but I actually have a lot more
> >respect for you than I have for kiwis or yanks that mix in
> >a few words of broken Norwegian in their English while
> >making wild claims about how Asatru has been kept secretly
> >alive and passed down from father to son in the Nordic
> >countries for 1000 years,
>
> Did I say that? I don't think so.
*You* personally did not make that particular claim. Incidentally,
according to google, we had this exact same discussion (almost word
by word) in s.c.n in March of 1999 too.
Some yank bozo made that claim in s.c.n, everybody else pointed
out that this was pure bullshit, and you jumped into the fray to
babble about how "The Gods and Goddesses of your ancestors are
returning revitalised." to quote your own words from s.c.n in March
1999.
> > how the ceremonies are all original,
>
> Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments. As
> such you're not doing well here Stein.
Sorry pal, but "Nik" (Or Nick Smith, as it were in 1999) is
not synonymous with "kiwis and yanks" (note the plural forms).
Claims similar to those listed by me has been made repeatedly
in soc.culture.nordic over the last few years by clueless
furriners who describe themselves as Asatruers.
> > how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
> >who are believers in the Nordic countries
>
> Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments.
> As such you're not doing well here Stein.
You are really into repeating yourself today, boyo.
> > and how significant this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
>
> It has *some* significance obviously if your minister
> for families comments on it to the largest Internet
> newspaper in Norway.
Nah. Valgjerd will comment on anything. She has a bad case
of the foot-in-mouth syndrome.
Her latest feat was to make a silly comment on how two
lesbian women (one a former minister of justice) must have
broken Norwegian law by having artificial insemination
done in Denmark, when the issue at hand really was that
the Norwegian parliament has passed a law where they
clearly say that gays can adopt the children of their
registered partner, but that the adoption authorities
were dragging their feet in implementing this law in
practical routines.
As everybody else pointed out - the fact that lesbians
does not get free medical aid in Norway to get pregnant
does not mean that it is against the law for lesbians
to get pregnant in any which way they prefer - they just
have to pay for whatever they want to do.
In other words: Valgjerd again focused on something totally
irrelevant and insignificant, as she often has before. IMO,
she talks faster than she thinks, by a pretty large margin.
Grin,
Stein
Rune Bjørnsen
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> A correspondent on an Asatru mailing list I subscribe to claims Bifrost
> has performed several. I wonder if he means civil wedding ceremonies with
> Asatru content.
I don't know, but probably a civil wedding, with an Asatru style wedding
ceremony before or after the legal ceremony. according to the FAQ on their
website, last updated in may, 2001, such ceremonies was still in a planning
fase. So maybe someone should tip them about updating it.
Rune
Doug Freyburger
>
> Another reason that it is so significant is that Norway and Iceland are the
> first to recognize officially that our faith is a religion, with all the
> rights that comes with it, including the right to arrange a legally binding
> wedding within the ramifications of our own belief system.
The US does not give recognition to any religion. It is a way to give
recognition to any religion. This means that *anyone* in most US states can
go to the county courthouse, fill out some papers, pay a fee, and become
licensed to performance marriages. Part of the paperwork is listing your
religious affiliation. It is the only means of ordainment recognized by the
government in the US.
For governments that do recognize specific religions, legal recognition is a
very important step. In Canada it takes 20 years to acheive. Wicca is in the
process now and they may already have it. The 20 year clock has not started
for Asatru in CAnada as far as I know.
Dirk Bruere
> > Thats another question. What we are claiming is equal recog-
> > nition in the law to the other already extant religious groups,
> > in this case, Norway. What can possibly be wrong with this?
>
> Nothing at all *wrong* with it. It just isn't nearly as important
> as you seem to want to believe it is.
That really remains to be seen.
If our religion becomes prominent in Europe (ie >2%) then this will be
recognised as a landmark in its evolution.
FFF
Dirk
Doug Freyburger
>
> You also acknowledge this - some nuts from abroad seem to
> think that it is just a matter of time before the rest of
> us convert to some variety of Asatru.
I do not believe anyone Asatru has ever made this claim.
Asatru is not for everyone. There is a debate whether the
Gods are real enough to be able to call anyone they chose or
if some group gets to decide who can and who can't follow
them.
> The more relevant question is : why should we mix the legal
> paperwork to *register* a marriage with the blessing ceremony
> of one or more religions at all ?
Given that religious registration of marriages is already a
part of the law, it is important. I agree with you that switching
to separate civil and religious ceremonies is a better method.
In the US people have that option and generally do not use it,
so it does no appear that most people prefer that approach.
> You may not believe this, but I actually have a lot more
> respect for you than I have for kiwis or yanks that mix in
> a few words of broken Norwegian in their English while
> making wild claims about how Asatru has been kept secretly
> alive and passed down from father to son in the Nordic
> countries for 1000 years, how the ceremonies are all ori-
> ginal, how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
> who are believers in the Nordic countries and how significant
> this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
I have no idea where this statement came form, but it displays
a great deal of ignorance. That is consistant with your prior
statements, so you should have skipped this statement.
It is Scandinavians who usually claim unbroken lines. Any such
claim always dissolves when someone offers to bring in a team
of anthropologists to interview the entire family for proper
documentation, so any such claim has always in the past been
wishfull thinking. Noone claims that our ceremonies are
unchanged, but we do work on acheiving as much authenticity
as possible. To that end ceremonies have changed in the last
decade do to scholarly study. We will never be able to acheive
real authenticiy because organized Asatru was exterminated a
thousand years ago.
As to huge numbers of members, time well tell.
Oh, and the words aren't broken Norwegian. They're mispronouced
Icelandic.
Dirk Bruere
>
> > You may not believe this, but I actually have a lot more
> > respect for you than I have for kiwis or yanks that mix in
> > a few words of broken Norwegian in their English while
> > making wild claims about how Asatru has been kept secretly
> > alive and passed down from father to son in the Nordic
> > countries for 1000 years, how the ceremonies are all ori-
> > ginal, how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
> > who are believers in the Nordic countries and how significant
> > this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
I have never heard this claim made by *anyone* who is Asatru.
> I have no idea where this statement came form, but it displays
> a great deal of ignorance. That is consistant with your prior
> statements, so you should have skipped this statement.
>
> It is Scandinavians who usually claim unbroken lines. Any such
> claim always dissolves when someone offers to bring in a team
> of anthropologists to interview the entire family for proper
> documentation, so any such claim has always in the past been
> wishfull thinking. Noone claims that our ceremonies are
> unchanged, but we do work on acheiving as much authenticity
> as possible. To that end ceremonies have changed in the last
> decade do to scholarly study. We will never be able to acheive
> real authenticiy because organized Asatru was exterminated a
> thousand years ago.
IMO there never was such a thing as 'real authenticity' given that 'Asatru'
was a collection of religious beliefs and practices stretching over
thousands of years across the entire Germanic world (and probably beyond).
Anything we moderns create is just as authentic given that we interact with
the same deities.
FFF
Dirk
Wild Colonial Boy
>Wild Colonial Boy wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 05:05:09 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Rune Bjørnsen wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote in message....a lot of bullshit
>> >
>> > <Grin>
>> >
>>> Apparently you would like to claim the concept for people who
>>> believe in new faiths based loosely
>>
>> What justification do you have for this perjorative adjective?
>>
>>>on pre-christian belief systems, as opposed to people who
>>> are agnostics or atheists.
>>
>> Indeed.
>
> What "perjorative adjective" ? "based loosely" ? Would
>you care to make the claim that you have authenticated
>sources that describe *exactly* the beliefs held by and
>ceremonies used by the vikings in the 11th century, and
>that your own beliefs and ceremonies are an *exact* copy
>of the original ones ?
There is what King Astrid said to Adam of Bremen who then wrote it
down.
Given this admission though, you would be justified in claiming that
we do not hang male representatives of all the appropriate animal
species once every 9 years.
My response to that reply and indeed to your general comment above is
that to focus on the Viking age religious viewpoint - is - in my
humble opinion - too narrow a focus. That was only 300 years. What I
am on about is ancestral background, understanding it, trying to 'get
in the heads' of our ancestors.
>> >> Before february this year, there was no other way than having
>> >> a civil ceremony to get legally married in this country if you
>> >> did not wan't to do it in the church of Norway, or one of the
>> >> other religions.
>> >
>> > I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to find
>> >this to be a total outrage. The 70 000+ persons who are members
>> >of agnostic/atheistic Human-Etisk forbund seem to have survived
>> >the "ordeal" of signing the papers at city hall and then having
>> >a party/celebration somewhere else. The same goes for the number
>> >of people who have entered into registered gay partnerships at
>> >city hall.
>> >
>> > So I fail to see why it is such an outrage that a tiny group
>> >of people would have to go through the same routine.
>>
>> Its not an outrage but a claim to equal recognition as a religious
>> group. Really Stein, you're use of perjorative adjectives does
>> nothing to convince me of the rightness of your argument.
You say above: " I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to
find this to be a total outrage.". Nowhere have I said that this is an
outrage yet you try to portray me as saying such. This is attacking a
straw man. Something that you have done extensively in this post that
I am replying to.
> Again, what "perjorative" adjective do you object to this time ?
>"Tiny" ? A group of less than 200 people out of 4 million people
>*is* tiny by any objective measure.
No, the claim that I find the religious inequity - *until now* - to be
an outrage. I do not find it to be an outrage at all just something to
be rectified as has been done.
>> >> Of course anyone could perform a marriage ceremony with all
>> >> the religious elements in it, and then go to some official
>> >> and have the words required by law read to you, before signing
>> >> the legal documents. But why do that, when you can have the
>> >> whole shebang done at one place? Every other religion has that
>> >> right, why should we be denied it?
>> >
>> > The more relevant question is : why should we mix the legal
>> >paperwork to *register* a marriage with the blessing ceremony
>> >of one or more religions at all ?
>>
>> Thats another question. What we are claiming is equal recog-
>> nition in the law to the other already extant religious groups,
>> in this case, Norway. What can possibly be wrong with this?
>
> Nothing at all *wrong* with it. It just isn't nearly as important
>as you seem to want to believe it is.
How important do you think I 'want' it to be?
>> > Registering a marriage (or a gay partnership, for that matter)
>> >is a legal/bureaucratic function, that should be performed at
>> >city hall anyways, instead of having a bunch of half assed priests
>> >of various faiths do the paperwork.
>>
>> Again perjorative language. It does nothing to convince but only
>> antagonizes those who don't see through it.
>
> I see that you have bought a new record with a bad track - you
>seem to repeat "perjorative" a lot today.
Because its appropriate - the term 'half assed' is perjorative and
such terms are inappropriate in rational discussion.
>> > Then you (and everybody else) can have whatever ceremonies of
>> >blessing as you like.
>>
>> Well thank you.
>
> You are welcome.
I'm so glad.
>> >> Another thing is that before 1969, a heathen religious society
>> >> like hours could not be recognized as a religion in the legal
>> >> sense of the word. Hence there was no organized and recognized
>> >> by the government Norse heathens before then. Read it again.
>> >> Recognized by the Government. That comes with certain rights
>> >> that Norse heathens where denied right up to 33 years ago. It
>> >> might not be persecution, but it certainly is discrimination,
>> >> don't you think?
>> >
>> > Certainly. But in 33 years, the number of members of organized
>> >Asatru type societies seems to have gone no higher than less
>> >than 200, so there cannot have been all that many people who
>> >was cruelly oppressed in the first place ... :-)
>>
>> Not in living memory but you know yourself, that terrible
>> torture did go on in and around the events of 1030AD.
>
> Well, boo-hoo. "Help, my great-great-great-great-great-etc
>grandparents were being oppressed a thousand years ago" :-)
>
> Quite apart from the fact that the christians actually lost
>the battle of Stiklestad in 1030, and king Olav (St Olav)
>got killed in the fighting. I expect that some of my wife's
>ancestors helped fight Olav that day - branches of her
>family come from the area where the battle was (Stiklestad in
>Verdal valley).
That is interesting. When I said 'around the events of 1030' I was
meaning other things that went on. You don't feel any sympathy for
those people that suffered needlessly? What does that say about you?
> So it wasn't a totally onesided thing.
Indeed.
> And of course, most
>people forget that we had much worse things happening to our
>ancestors way *after* 1030 - we had the bitter civil wars in
>the 1100s and we had the black plague of the 1300s. The civil
>wars and the black plague killed off independent Norway for
>500 years or so.
>
> The change to christianity, which was somewhat violent in
>Norway (partly for religious reasons, but more to break the
>power of the local earls and petty kings and give the nati-
>onal king and the church more power),
Neither deserved it.
> and pretty peaceful on Iceland (where they voted on the issue at Thingvellir
>and decided to adopt the new religion en masse) didn't cause
>any such massive disruptions to the population size as the
>civil wars and the black plague did in Norway.
The conversion in Iceland was interesting in its relatively peaceful
nature. Why this was so would probably make a good Masters
Dissertation.
>> > I will accept the membership numbers you give without
>> >asking for proof of them. But the "there are a lot more
>> >of us than the statistics can ever show" argument I will
>> >not buy w/o proof.
>>
>> No logical impossibility in the idea that it is actually true.
>
> Sorry, I only speak Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, German and
>English. I don't have time to try to decode gibberish senten-
>ces.
I am saying that the statement, 'there are a lot more of us than
statistics can ever show' might well still be true whether we can
prove it or not.
>> > If you still haven't been able to collect more than 200
>> >organized members in a generation,
>>
>> FFS is 4 years old.
>
> Bifrost was formed in the 1980s. That to me is about 20 years
>ago.
I'm not a spokesperson for Bifrost but I do have to say that Forn Sed
is growing healthily.
>>> in a society you your-self describe as pretty liberal,
>>> then there probably is not all that many more potensial
>>> members to be found.
>>
>> The requests to join by virtue of the news reports would
>> indicate otherwise but then again you wouldn't know because
>> its not you thats receiving the emails requesting membership
>> is it?
>
> Maybe concepts like "probably not all that many" are too hard
>for you to understand.
I'm not really worried if 'probably not all that many' chose to join.
Like I have said, it is better to have 100 genuine members than 1000
who are only there for the novelty value/to annoy their parents/seem
cool to their schoolmates...whatever...
>> Spin spin spin. Soon there will be two legal Heathen weddings in
>> Norway. That is an infinite % increase in heathen wedding numbers.
>
> Good math. Not.
An increase from 0 to 2 - given than any number divided by zero is
infinite. I realise that it is 'spin' way of stating things. I was
only copying your example.
>> > If you just look at the derivate (ie the rate of change),
>> >you don't get the whole picture. A tiny group can grow at
>> >a fast rate of change and still be tiny.
>>
>> Indeed. So what's your point.
>
> My point is that your group has been insignificant, still is
>insignificant and probably will continue to be totally insigni-
>ficant for the foreseeable future, despite matematically chall-
>enged morons who believe that they can estimate *future* growth
>as "infinite" or "doubles every year" or similar claptrap.
I look forward to your realisation that you were wrong in this regard
- some years from now.
>> >> That the wast majority of those leaving the church, leve it
>> >> for other religions than others, or becouse they are honest
>> >> enough in their atheist ways to at least get out of the
>> >> church and live their lives independent of it, does not hurt
>> >> us at all. Why would we, after all, bother with having members
>> >> that does not believe in the same things we do?
>> >>
>> >> Thats my final word in this discussion. You can rant on if
>> >> you please, but I won't throw away more time on it, as you
>> >> probably won't change your mind anyway, you being just as
>> >> stubborn as any Norwegian, including myself...lol
>> >
>> > LOL :-)
>> >
>> > You may not believe this, but I actually have a lot more
>> >respect for you than I have for kiwis or yanks that mix in
>> >a few words of broken Norwegian in their English while
>> >making wild claims about how Asatru has been kept secretly
>> >alive and passed down from father to son in the Nordic
>> >countries for 1000 years,
>>
>> Did I say that? I don't think so.
>
> *You* personally did not make that particular claim. Incidentally,
>according to google, we had this exact same discussion (almost word
>by word) in s.c.n in March of 1999 too.
Please quote a google groups link so that I may remind myself.
> Some yank bozo made that claim in s.c.n, everybody else pointed
>out that this was pure bullshit, and you jumped into the fray to
>babble about how "The Gods and Goddesses of your ancestors are
>returning revitalised." to quote your own words from s.c.n in March
>1999.
And they are. What is the problem with this?
>> > how the ceremonies are all original,
>>
>> Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments. As
>> such you're not doing well here Stein.
>
> Sorry pal, but "Nik" (Or Nick Smith, as it were in 1999) is
>not synonymous with "kiwis and yanks" (note the plural forms).
Noted. I am a Kiwi - and given that there haven't really been any
postings made by other Kiwis - to speak of - I assume that you are
referring to me. Therefore I reply as if you are.
>Claims similar to those listed by me has been made repeatedly
>in soc.culture.nordic over the last few years by clueless
>furriners who describe themselves as Asatruers.
Are they wrong?
>> > how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
>> >who are believers in the Nordic countries
>>
>> Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments.
>> As such you're not doing well here Stein.
>
> You are really into repeating yourself today, boyo.
It was required.
Usage of the term 'boyo' when addressing someone that you are debating
with is not required, especially since it is being used as an attempt
at a put down - <ahem> perjorative. It failed anyway.
>> > and how significant this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
>>
>> It has *some* significance obviously if your minister
>> for families comments on it to the largest Internet
>> newspaper in Norway.
>
> Nah. Valgjerd will comment on anything. She has a bad case
>of the foot-in-mouth syndrome.
Apparently she has already apologised for her comments wrt my wedding.
> Her latest feat was to make a silly comment on how two
>lesbian women (one a former minister of justice) must have
>broken Norwegian law by having artificial insemination
>done in Denmark, when the issue at hand really was that
>the Norwegian parliament has passed a law where they
>clearly say that gays can adopt the children of their
>registered partner, but that the adoption authorities
>were dragging their feet in implementing this law in
>practical routines.
>
> As everybody else pointed out - the fact that lesbians
>does not get free medical aid in Norway to get pregnant
>does not mean that it is against the law for lesbians
>to get pregnant in any which way they prefer - they just
>have to pay for whatever they want to do.
Indeed.
> In other words: Valgjerd again focused on something totally
>irrelevant and insignificant, as she often has before. IMO,
>she talks faster than she thinks, by a pretty large margin.
Why was she selected by her party, elected by the people of Norway and
then selected to the caucus then?
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
Quite right. Thanks for saying it Dirk.
Nik
Wild Colonial Boy
wrote:
I'd say. That claim would contradict the implicit claim made above by
Harald Eilertson.
Nik
Stein R.
>
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:22:22 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Wild Colonial Boy wrote:
> >>
> >> > So I fail to see why it is such an outrage that a tiny group
> >> >of people would have to go through the same routine.
> >>
> >> Its not an outrage but a claim to equal recognition as a religious
> >> group. Really Stein, you're use of perjorative adjectives does
> >> nothing to convince me of the rightness of your argument.
>
> You say above: " I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to
> find this to be a total outrage.". Nowhere have I said that this is an
> outrage yet you try to portray me as saying such. This is attacking a
> straw man. Something that you have done extensively in this post that
> I am replying to.
>
> > Again, what "perjorative" adjective do you object to this time ?
> >"Tiny" ? A group of less than 200 people out of 4 million people
> >*is* tiny by any objective measure.
>
> No, the claim that I find the religious inequity - *until now* -
> to be an outrage. I do not find it to be an outrage at all just
> something to be rectified as has been done.
I see. So your objections are based on :
a) a somewhat poor grasp of English grammar - you object to
my choice of the noun "outrage" by talking about "perjorative
adjectives"
and
b) a somewhat inflated sense of self importance - you assume
that I am claiming that *you* (Nick) has written every single
statement I try to show is silly.
In this case, the statement that it was bad that Asatru/
"heathens" had to get married at city hall before was made
by Rune Bjørnsen, not by you. I just sharpened it to "outrage"
to point out how little of a hardship it really was - and that
if tens of thousands of people could live with having only city
hall as an alternative to get married, then I am sure a tiny
group like the asatru believers also could survive with having
only city hall, too.
Tell me if you need a smaller spoon, or if it is small enough
now.
> >> Thats another question. What we are claiming is equal recog-
> >> nition in the law to the other already extant religious groups,
> >> in this case, Norway. What can possibly be wrong with this?
> >
> > Nothing at all *wrong* with it. It just isn't nearly as important
> >as you seem to want to believe it is.
>
> How important do you think I 'want' it to be?
Gee - you probably don't care at all. That is probably why you
crosspost an announcement to soc.culture.nordic with links to
different norwegian newspapers, post several copies of your ques-
tion "why did some people say they didn't support heathen weddings",
why you keep crossposting articles about this issue to s.c.n, why
you go on and on about how your wedding has even been commented
on by some minister and send at least two emails directly to at
least three different s.c.n regulars to get a comment.
It really sounds like you don't think is all that important,
doesn't it ?
> >> Not in living memory but you know yourself, that terrible
> >> torture did go on in and around the events of 1030AD.
> >
> > Well, boo-hoo. "Help, my great-great-great-great-great-etc
> >grandparents were being oppressed a thousand years ago" :-)
> >
> > Quite apart from the fact that the christians actually lost
> >the battle of Stiklestad in 1030, and king Olav (St Olav)
> >got killed in the fighting. I expect that some of my wife's
> >ancestors helped fight Olav that day - branches of her
> >family come from the area where the battle was (Stiklestad in
> >Verdal valley).
>
> That is interesting. When I said 'around the events of 1030'
> I was meaning other things that went on. You don't feel any
> sympathy for those people that suffered needlessly? What does
> that say about you?
That I am able to get on with my life, instead of brooding on
events that happened 30 generations ago ? What does it say about
you that you want to keep old injustices alive after thousand
years - that you want to support serbian style ethnic cleansing,
based on the moral equivalent of claiming that since the serbians
lost the battle of Kossovo pale in 1300-something, they had every
right to retaliate later ?
No, of *course* not. But history is a subject best studied with
some detachment and not too much passion. What's been has been
and cannot be changed.
I have also slept (in a sleeping bag) in the old monastery
ruins at Lindisfarne island (aka holy island) off the coast
of Northhumbria in England, but none of the locals seemed to
blame me for what Norsemen did there in 793 or thereabouts, or
demand that I showed compassion for the victims of needless
suffering from viking violence.
> > And of course, most
> >people forget that we had much worse things happening to our
> >ancestors way *after* 1030 - we had the bitter civil wars in
> >the 1100s and we had the black plague of the 1300s. The civil
> >wars and the black plague killed off independent Norway for
> >500 years or so.
> >
> > The change to christianity, which was somewhat violent in
> >Norway (partly for religious reasons, but more to break the
> >power of the local earls and petty kings and give the nati-
> >onal king and the church more power),
>
> Neither deserved it.
That depends on how you look at history. If you compare Norway,
which is a country with a strong central administration, with
e.g. Somalia, which is a country where the central administration
never got strong enough to suppress the local "petty kings" (ie
clan and subclan leaders), then I think I prefer Norway.
But be that as it may - this is one thousand years in the past.
It doesn't matter if something was "just" or "deserved" - you
cannot change what happened a thousand years ago anyways.
> >> > I will accept the membership numbers you give without
> >> >asking for proof of them. But the "there are a lot more
> >> >of us than the statistics can ever show" argument I will
> >> >not buy w/o proof.
> >>
> >> No logical impossibility in the idea that it is actually true.
> >
> > Sorry, I only speak Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, German and
> >English. I don't have time to try to decode gibberish senten-
> >ces.
>
> I am saying that the statement, 'there are a lot more of us than
> statistics can ever show' might well still be true whether we can
> prove it or not.
Certainly. It *might* or might *not*. The relevance of "might be
true" as a way of convincing people that something *is* true is
somewhat unclear to me, but since you already have shown a poor
grasp of history, grammar and math, why not just add "logic" to
the list and leave it at that ?
> >> Spin spin spin. Soon there will be two legal Heathen weddings in
> >> Norway. That is an infinite % increase in heathen wedding numbers.
> >
> > Good math. Not.
>
> An increase from 0 to 2 - given than any number divided by zero is
> infinite. I realise that it is 'spin' way of stating things. I was
> only copying your example.
Actually, I seem to recall from school that we never divide by
zero. That is a meaningless operation.
What you *can* do is to establish the limit value e.g the
function f(x) = n/x, where n is some constant and x is a
variable goes towards when x goes *towards* zero (not when
you set x equal to zero).
Of course, that assumes that x is a member of R (the set of
real numbers), not that x is a member of N (the set of inte-
gers).
When you talk about the number of members or the number of
marriages, you limit yourself to integers (and to positive
integers and zero at that), so it is a rather meaningless ope-
ration to talk about 2/0 to establish the growth rate.
Which is why people usually does not talk about percentage
growth when they start out from zero and go to some number
of whatever.
> >> > If you just look at the derivate (ie the rate of change),
> >> >you don't get the whole picture. A tiny group can grow at
> >> >a fast rate of change and still be tiny.
> >>
> >> Indeed. So what's your point.
> >
> > My point is that your group has been insignificant, still is
> >insignificant and probably will continue to be totally insigni-
> >ficant for the foreseeable future, despite matematically chall-
> >enged morons who believe that they can estimate *future* growth
> >as "infinite" or "doubles every year" or similar claptrap.
>
> I look forward to your realisation that you were wrong in this
> regard - some years from now.
Don't hold your breath waiting :-)
> > *You* personally did not make that particular claim. Incidentally,
> >according to google, we had this exact same discussion (almost word
> >by word) in s.c.n in March of 1999 too.
>
> Please quote a google groups link so that I may remind myself.
groups.google.com, enter appropriate search terms - e.g Asatru
soc.culture.nordic Nik etc.
> >Claims similar to those listed by me has been made repeatedly
> >in soc.culture.nordic over the last few years by clueless
> >furriners who describe themselves as Asatruers.
>
> Are they wrong?
About their clueless claims ? Certainly. About describing them-
selves as Asatruers ? Who cares ?
> >> > how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
> >> >who are believers in the Nordic countries
> >>
> >> Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments.
> >> As such you're not doing well here Stein.
> >
> > You are really into repeating yourself today, boyo.
>
> It was required.
>
> Usage of the term 'boyo' when addressing someone that
> you are debating with is not required, especially since
> it is being used as an attempt at a put down - <ahem>
> perjorative. It failed anyway.
I am so glad that you got that subtle hint. I was starting
to think that I would have to hire someone to put up three
feet high neon letters on your neighbour's wall : "Stein
thinks Nick Smith is an immature moron".
> >> > and how significant this is for e.g. Norwegian society.
> >>
> >> It has *some* significance obviously if your minister
> >> for families comments on it to the largest Internet
> >> newspaper in Norway.
> >
> > Nah. Valgjerd will comment on anything. She has a bad case
> >of the foot-in-mouth syndrome.
>
> Apparently she has already apologised for her comments wrt
> my wedding.
<Shrug>.
> > Her latest feat was to make a silly comment on how two
> >lesbian women (one a former minister of justice) must have
> >broken Norwegian law by having artificial insemination
> >done in Denmark, when the issue at hand really was that
> >the Norwegian parliament has passed a law where they
> >clearly say that gays can adopt the children of their
> >registered partner, but that the adoption authorities
> >were dragging their feet in implementing this law in
> >practical routines.
> >
> > As everybody else pointed out - the fact that lesbians
> >does not get free medical aid in Norway to get pregnant
> >does not mean that it is against the law for lesbians
> >to get pregnant in any which way they prefer - they just
> >have to pay for whatever they want to do.
>
> Indeed.
>
> > In other words: Valgjerd again focused on something totally
> >irrelevant and insignificant, as she often has before. IMO,
> >she talks faster than she thinks, by a pretty large margin.
>
> Why was she selected by her party, elected by the people of
> Norway and then selected to the caucus then?
She was selected by her party (KrF - The christian people's
party) because they needed someone conservative enough to
appeal to hardcore conservative christian party supporters.
Valgjerd is conservative enough to appeal to that group of
voters. She also, IMNSHO, is an idiot.
But as long as neither labor nor conservative has gotten
their act together, then the KrF is going to appeal to the
voters as "the middle choice" on most of the big issues like
taxation, public vs private etc, even if they do have some
weird hangups about some things related to their religion.
Grin,
Stein
Wild Colonial Boy
>Wild Colonial Boy wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:22:22 GMT, "Stein R." <st...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Wild Colonial Boy wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > So I fail to see why it is such an outrage that a tiny group
>> >> >of people would have to go through the same routine.
>> >>
>> >> Its not an outrage but a claim to equal recognition as a religious
>> >> group. Really Stein, you're use of perjorative adjectives does
>> >> nothing to convince me of the rightness of your argument.
>>
>> You say above: " I know, and I have acknowledged this. I just fail to
>> find this to be a total outrage.". Nowhere have I said that this is an
>> outrage yet you try to portray me as saying such. This is attacking a
>> straw man. Something that you have done extensively in this post that
>> I am replying to.
>>
>> > Again, what "perjorative" adjective do you object to this time ?
>> >"Tiny" ? A group of less than 200 people out of 4 million people
>> >*is* tiny by any objective measure.
>>
>> No, the claim that I find the religious inequity - *until now* -
>> to be an outrage. I do not find it to be an outrage at all just
>> something to be rectified as has been done.
>
> I see. So your objections are based on :
>
> a) a somewhat poor grasp of English grammar - you object to
> my choice of the noun "outrage" by talking about "perjorative
>adjectives"
Criticizing my grammar. You have lost the argument.
> and
>
> b) a somewhat inflated sense of self importance - you assume
> that I am claiming that *you* (Nick) has written every single
> statement I try to show is silly.
Not the case at all. You have lost the argument.
> In this case, the statement that it was bad that Asatru/
>"heathens" had to get married at city hall before was made
>by Rune Bjørnsen, not by you. I just sharpened it to "outrage"
>to point out how little of a hardship it really was
You *just* sharpened it...to something that was never claimed in the
first place.
> - and that if tens of thousands of people could live with having only city
>hall as an alternative to get married, then I am sure a tiny
>group like the asatru believers also could survive with having
>only city hall, too.
Of course we could survive. No-one was claiming that we would not
survive. Those straw men are falling over.
> Tell me if you need a smaller spoon, or if it is small enough
>now.
Again pesonal insults. You have lost the argument.
>> >> Thats another question. What we are claiming is equal recog-
>> >> nition in the law to the other already extant religious groups,
>> >> in this case, Norway. What can possibly be wrong with this?
>> >
>> > Nothing at all *wrong* with it. It just isn't nearly as important
>> >as you seem to want to believe it is.
>>
>> How important do you think I 'want' it to be?
>
> Gee - you probably don't care at all. That is probably why you
>crosspost an announcement to soc.culture.nordic with links to
>different norwegian newspapers, post several copies of your ques-
>tion "why did some people say they didn't support heathen weddings",
>why you keep crossposting articles about this issue to s.c.n, why
>you go on and on about how your wedding has even been commented
>on by some minister and send at least two emails directly to at
>least three different s.c.n regulars to get a comment.
What? two emails to s.c.n. regulars? No. I only sent one, to you.
> It really sounds like you don't think is all that important,
>doesn't it ?
Bleh bleh bleh.
>> >> Not in living memory but you know yourself, that terrible
>> >> torture did go on in and around the events of 1030AD.
>> >
>> > Well, boo-hoo. "Help, my great-great-great-great-great-etc
>> >grandparents were being oppressed a thousand years ago" :-)
>> >
>> > Quite apart from the fact that the christians actually lost
>> >the battle of Stiklestad in 1030, and king Olav (St Olav)
>> >got killed in the fighting. I expect that some of my wife's
>> >ancestors helped fight Olav that day - branches of her
>> >family come from the area where the battle was (Stiklestad in
>> >Verdal valley).
>>
>> That is interesting. When I said 'around the events of 1030'
>> I was meaning other things that went on. You don't feel any
>> sympathy for those people that suffered needlessly? What does
>> that say about you?
>
> That I am able to get on with my life, instead of brooding on
>events that happened 30 generations ago ? What does it say about
>you that you want to keep old injustices alive after thousand
>years - that you want to support serbian style ethnic cleansing,
What? Bollocks.
>based on the moral equivalent of claiming that since the serbians
>lost the battle of Kossovo pale in 1300-something, they had every
>right to retaliate later ?
>
> No, of *course* not. But history is a subject best studied with
>some detachment and not too much passion. What's been has been
>and cannot be changed.
Indeed but don't you feel any sympathy for those who were tortured to
death for not wanting to be forceably converted to another imported
religion, particularly when a large part of the drive to do so was an
effort by one man to bring all Norway under his thumb whilst he
pretended to be a Christian?
> I have also slept (in a sleeping bag) in the old monastery
>ruins at Lindisfarne island (aka holy island) off the coast
>of Northhumbria in England, but none of the locals seemed to
>blame me for what Norsemen did there in 793 or thereabouts, or
>demand that I showed compassion for the victims of needless
>suffering from viking violence.
Is anyone here *demanding* that you do? I'm simply pointing out your
own lack of compassion for your historical countrymen who stood up for
personal religious freedoms and died painfully as a result.
>> > And of course, most
>> >people forget that we had much worse things happening to our
>> >ancestors way *after* 1030 - we had the bitter civil wars in
>> >the 1100s and we had the black plague of the 1300s. The civil
>> >wars and the black plague killed off independent Norway for
>> >500 years or so.
>> >
>> > The change to christianity, which was somewhat violent in
>> >Norway (partly for religious reasons, but more to break the
>> >power of the local earls and petty kings and give the nati-
>> >onal king and the church more power),
>>
>> Neither deserved it.
>
> That depends on how you look at history. If you compare Norway,
>which is a country with a strong central administration, with
>e.g. Somalia, which is a country where the central administration
>never got strong enough to suppress the local "petty kings" (ie
>clan and subclan leaders), then I think I prefer Norway.
Somalia now and Norway 1000 years ago don't compare.
Olav was an evil man who didn't deserve to rule anything. Someone who
was involved in torturing humans is not a 'saint' in my eyes.
> But be that as it may - this is one thousand years in the past.
>It doesn't matter if something was "just" or "deserved" - you
>cannot change what happened a thousand years ago anyways.
Quite right.
>> >> > I will accept the membership numbers you give without
>> >> >asking for proof of them. But the "there are a lot more
>> >> >of us than the statistics can ever show" argument I will
>> >> >not buy w/o proof.
>> >>
>> >> No logical impossibility in the idea that it is actually true.
>> >
>> > Sorry, I only speak Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, German and
>> >English. I don't have time to try to decode gibberish senten-
>> >ces.
>>
>> I am saying that the statement, 'there are a lot more of us than
>> statistics can ever show' might well still be true whether we can
>> prove it or not.
>
> Certainly. It *might* or might *not*. The relevance of "might be
>true" as a way of convincing people that something *is* true is
>somewhat unclear to me, but since you already have shown a poor
>grasp of history, grammar and math, why not just add "logic" to
>the list and leave it at that ?
I have a Bachelors of Science that is mostly made up of Logic papers.
In any even criticizing my grammar means that you have lost the
argument.
>> >> Spin spin spin. Soon there will be two legal Heathen weddings in
>> >> Norway. That is an infinite % increase in heathen wedding numbers.
>> >
>> > Good math. Not.
>>
>> An increase from 0 to 2 - given than any number divided by zero is
>> infinite. I realise that it is 'spin' way of stating things. I was
>> only copying your example.
>
> Actually, I seem to recall from school that we never divide by
>zero. That is a meaningless operation.
No its not. I studied mathematics to 200 level entry and the fact that
any number divided by zero is infinity is a useful mathematical truth.
> What you *can* do is to establish the limit value e.g the
>function f(x) = n/x, where n is some constant and x is a
>variable goes towards when x goes *towards* zero (not when
>you set x equal to zero).
>
> Of course, that assumes that x is a member of R (the set of
>real numbers), not that x is a member of N (the set of inte-
>gers).
>
> When you talk about the number of members or the number of
>marriages, you limit yourself to integers (and to positive
>integers and zero at that), so it is a rather meaningless ope-
>ration to talk about 2/0 to establish the growth rate.
Ok ok. You're right about that. Does that feel better?
> Which is why people usually does not talk about percentage
>growth when they start out from zero and go to some number
>of whatever.
It got you going though didn't it?
>> >> > If you just look at the derivate (ie the rate of change),
>> >> >you don't get the whole picture. A tiny group can grow at
>> >> >a fast rate of change and still be tiny.
>> >>
>> >> Indeed. So what's your point.
>> >
>> > My point is that your group has been insignificant, still is
>> >insignificant and probably will continue to be totally insigni-
>> >ficant for the foreseeable future, despite matematically chall-
>> >enged morons who believe that they can estimate *future* growth
>> >as "infinite" or "doubles every year" or similar claptrap.
>>
>> I look forward to your realisation that you were wrong in this
>> regard - some years from now.
>
> Don't hold your breath waiting :-)
Of course not. It will be a long slow but rewarding project.
>> > *You* personally did not make that particular claim. Incidentally,
>> >according to google, we had this exact same discussion (almost word
>> >by word) in s.c.n in March of 1999 too.
>>
>> Please quote a google groups link so that I may remind myself.
>
> groups.google.com, enter appropriate search terms - e.g Asatru
>soc.culture.nordic Nik etc.
There are too many. You're going to have to quote the Google groups
URL.
>> >Claims similar to those listed by me has been made repeatedly
>> >in soc.culture.nordic over the last few years by clueless
>> >furriners who describe themselves as Asatruers.
>>
>> Are they wrong?
>
> About their clueless claims ? Certainly.
We'll see. The jury is out on that one as time will tell.
> About describing them-selves as Asatruers ? Who cares ?
I do, you don't, so what?
>> >> > how there are or will soon be huge numbers of people
>> >> >who are believers in the Nordic countries
>> >>
>> >> Restricting oneself to the truth helps to win arguments.
>> >> As such you're not doing well here Stein.
>> >
>> > You are really into repeating yourself today, boyo.
>>
>> It was required.
>>
>> Usage of the term 'boyo' when addressing someone that
>> you are debating with is not required, especially since
>> it is being used as an attempt at a put down - <ahem>
>> perjorative. It failed anyway.
>
> I am so glad that you got that subtle hint. I was starting
>to think that I would have to hire someone to put up three
>feet high neon letters on your neighbour's wall : "Stein
>thinks Nick Smith is an immature moron".
Hahahahahaha. Personal insults. Very good. Why then are you arguing
with an 'immature moron'?
You have lost the argument since you have resorted to personal insults
and criticizing my grammar.
My name is, according to all the relevant legal and governmental
bodies - Nik Warrensson. The fact that you are using my birth name whe
no-one else does, these days, says what about the content of your
argument?
Fair enough.
> But as long as neither labor nor conservative has gotten
>their act together, then the KrF is going to appeal to the
>voters as "the middle choice" on most of the big issues like
>taxation, public vs private etc, even if they do have some
>weird hangups about some things related to their religion.
And you don't?
In any event, because you resorted to criticizing my grammar you have
lost the argument.
Nik
Harald Eilertsen
news:7960d3ee.02071...@posting.google.com:
> A correspondent on an Asatru mailing list I subscribe to claims
> Bifrost has performed several.
Several is a bit exagerated. We did one wedding ceremony a bit more
than one year ago, but this was only the ceremonial part. The actual
official wedding had been performed by the mayors office some time
before. This time we also have to do the paperwork ourselves :/
Take Care!
Harald Eilertsen
Åsatrufellesskapet Bifrost, Norway