gods flood
Fred Jones
you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might actually mean?
While there are many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's story,
to be literally true, most educated and intelligent people understand that the
story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that Mt. Everest was never
covered in flood water, they understand that the ark could not hold the millions
of species that are now found on earth, and they understand that there is no DNA
evidence to show that all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just
a few thousand years ago.
But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that deserves special
recognition. It shows us something about God that is quite unsettling to any
intelligent person who takes the time to consider his actions. That special
section is this:
God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed to be "all-knowing"
and "all-powerful." If God were to exist, God would know what was coming when he
created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions of
people.
This realization leads to an obvious question: Why didn't God simply speed up
Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is the flood? Or why didn't God
program Adam and Eve when he created them to completely circumvent the need for
such a horrendous atrocity?
You may have never considered this question, but it is exquisitely important.
Because the flood is an atrocity of the highest order. It is mass murder on a
global scale.
The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as their object of worship
shows us something about Christians, does it not? Think about it - By
(supposedly) murdering nearly every human on the planet, the Christian God is
far more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can also be a
mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet Christians willfully worship him.
Why?
If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look inside yourself today.
Why would you accept a mass murderer into your life?
And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays these horrific
tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here are several other examples.
In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about one of his early
massacres:
So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of
Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the
firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their
livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt
woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of
Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.
Here the death of the children is directly at the hand of God.
In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and
their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies
will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on
helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
Is this the imprint of a "loving" God?
In Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:
Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even the little ones of
the flock shall be dragged away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their
fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry
shall be heard at the Red Sea.
In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their
pregnant women ripped open.
In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the
LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and so the plague came among the congregation of
the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not
known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Here Moses, acting as an agent of God, specifies that thousands of male babies
and children be killed, as well as thousands of women. The Bible states in verse
35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women
who had not known man by lying with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of
thousands men, women and children were massacred.
In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:
Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. The LORD said to
me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole
army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who
reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of
Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time
we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these
cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were
also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had
done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and children.
But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for
ourselves.
They massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities at God's request.
Even in the "New Testament" we find the same sort of thing. In the book of
Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the Christmas story, the Bible describes an
amazing massacre of thousands of babies:
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their
treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And
being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they
departed into their own country another way. And when they were departed,
behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and
take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there
until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed
into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called
my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was
exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in
Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under,
according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was
fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In Rama was
there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel
weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Think about the thousands of families who were affected by this massacre. The
Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could not be comforted. Of course
they could not be comforted. If you are a parent, you know exactly how
distraught you would feel if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children.
Why would God do this? Why would you want anything to do with such a muderous,
horrific being? What can we say about people who would want to believe in such a
being? Why would any normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?
It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be heinous, demented
and despicable. As an intelligent person, you should be able to see that.
This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
bob young
Ah yes, but it is a lovely story for the young at heart,
brings out gasps of amazment and the "Ooohs" and th
"aaaahs' and once you have got 'em at that early age there's
a strong change you got 'em for life, as many posters here
tend to show
>
> The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as their object of worship
> shows us something about Christians, does it not? Think about it
aye but are they not programmed 'not to think'?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
monkfish
You misunderstood.
Until you have a mature faith,
feel free to ignore those parts
that confuse you.
--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.
Fred Jones
"monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:ut6dnXKUz5TPc43V...@ptd.net...
Love, what did I misunderstand then.
monkfish
> "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
You think you know what God is
and you also think that
the god as you know it is imaginary.
That does not mean God is imaginary.
It just means you misunderstood God.
Now tell me what you think God is.
Fred Jones
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>
>> "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
>>>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you should
>>>> be able to see that.
>>>>
>>>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
>>>
>>>
>>> You misunderstood.
>>
>> Love, what did I misunderstand then.
>
>
> You think you know what God is
> and you also think that
> the god as you know it is imaginary.
> That does not mean God is imaginary.
> It just means you misunderstood God.
>
> Now tell me what you think God is.
>
no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no demons. There are no
twenty four elders.There was not a world wide flood. There was no talking
donkey. The book is fiction.
bob young
ROFL
"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
it can't be
taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]
Faith is Doubt.
[Emily Dickinson]
Without pledging ourselves to any particular Confession
(Protestantism or Catholicism), we have restored to faith
its prerequisites because we were convinced that the people
need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken
the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not
merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped
it out.
[Adolf Hitler]
bob young
monkfish wrote:
>
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>
> > "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> >> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
> >>
> >>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
> >>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you should
> >>> be able to see that.
> >>>
> >>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
> >>
> >>
> >> You misunderstood.
> >
> > Love, what did I misunderstand then.
>
> You think you know what God is
> and you also think that
> the god as you know it is imaginary.
> That does not mean God is imaginary.
> It just means you misunderstood God.
>
> Now tell me what you think God is.
A............... MYTH
Prove me wrong.
God used to live in the clouds. Now he exists outside the
universe. Christians keep pushing God further and further
away. You must unlearn what you have learned. ~ Yoda
On every hand there seems to be design to defeat design.
If God created man -- if he is the father of us all, why did
he make the criminals, the insane, the deformed and idiotic?
Should the mother, who clasps to her breast an idiot child,
thank God?
[Robert Green Ingersoll, from "Why I Am an Agnostic" (1896)]
bob young
Fred Jones wrote:
>
> "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> news:B9GdnZsPVvR-2YzV...@ptd.net...
> > On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
> >
> >> "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> >>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
> >>>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you should
> >>>> be able to see that.
> >>>>
> >>>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You misunderstood.
> >>
> >> Love, what did I misunderstand then.
> >
> >
> > You think you know what God is
> > and you also think that
> > the god as you know it is imaginary.
> > That does not mean God is imaginary.
> > It just means you misunderstood God.
> >
> > Now tell me what you think God is.
> >
> Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no devil. There is
> no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no demons. There are no
> twenty four elders.There was not a world wide flood. There was no talking
> donkey. The book is fiction.
as is well illustrated:
The universe revolves around the earth.
Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
The world is flat (and on pillars)
Bats are a kind of bird.
Rabbits chew their cud.
There is enough water to flood the entire planet
Women were created from a man's rib
Rainbows are a promise from God
[Acknowledgements to 'James, Seattle'
Pastor Frank
news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3V...@comcast.com...
>
> Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood?
> And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might
> actually mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
> therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and
> intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
> They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water,
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?
Pastor Frank
isn't it? Unless you imagine it has value, it's just a little piece of
worthless paper. Animals and atheists attach no value to God, but thinking
people do, and that is the difference.
Fred Jones
"Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:9c5e6$48117ca1$d1d89a73$34...@PRIMUS.CA...
thinking part, the intelligence factor that sets humans apart from animal. It is
because of that thinking part why god does not exist. See, the people who are
over you in what ever church you belong to set it up that way. It's is to
control you. And I see it is working quite well. See this religion thing is a
lot like the implication or metaphor behind the name monkfish. I'll let you chew
on that for a while.
Fred Jones
weak like you. The myth of the flood says the whole earth was covered. In fact
Genesis 7:20 says the mountains were covered. It does not say only half covered,
it says covered. So you are implying the flood was contained in some kind of
bubble so that the flood was only in the local geological area. That means the
story is just that a story. It is a lie.
J666
(in message <f0b53$48117c9a$d1d89a73$34...@PRIMUS.CA>):
If the whole world was covered with that much water, to where did the water
recede
J666
(in message <9c5e6$48117ca1$d1d89a73$34...@PRIMUS.CA>):
> Money is imaginary,
> isn't it? Unless you imagine it has value,
We create money and we give it value - we use that value to buy goods and
services instead of having a barter system way of commerce. The value of
money can increase and decrease over time.
monkfish
> "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> news:B9GdnZsPVvR-2YzV...@ptd.net...
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>>
>>> "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
>>>>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
>>>>> should be able to see that.
>>>>>
>>>>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You misunderstood.
>>>
>>> Love, what did I misunderstand then.
>>
>>
>> You think you know what God is
>> and you also think that
>> the god as you know it is imaginary.
>> That does not mean God is imaginary.
>> It just means you misunderstood God.
>>
>> Now tell me what you think God is.
>>
> Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no devil.
> There is no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no demons.
> There are no twenty four elders.There was not a world wide flood. There
> was no talking donkey. The book is fiction.
Is that your educated guess
or your blind faith?
What does it mean for God not to exist?
monkfish
Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?
monkfish
> monkfish wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>>
>> > "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>> >> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
>> >>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
>> >>> should be able to see that.
>> >>>
>> >>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You misunderstood.
>> >
>> > Love, what did I misunderstand then.
>>
>> You think you know what God is
>> and you also think that
>> the god as you know it is imaginary.
>> That does not mean God is imaginary.
>> It just means you misunderstood God.
>>
>> Now tell me what you think God is.
>
> A............... MYTH
>
> Prove me wrong.
>
> God used to live in the clouds. Now he exists outside the universe.
> Christians keep pushing God further and further away. You must unlearn
> what you have learned. ~ Yoda
God is here with us.
Atheists "keep pushing God further and further away.
You must unlearn what you have learned."
> On every hand there seems to be design to defeat design. If God created
> man -- if he is the father of us all, why did he make the criminals, the
> insane, the deformed and idiotic? Should the mother, who clasps to her
> breast an idiot child, thank God?
> [Robert Green Ingersoll, from "Why I Am an Agnostic" (1896)]
Simplistic flat reasoning.
God is beyond YOUR right and wrong.
God is above YOUR good or bad.
God is even prior to existence.
You need to figure out what it means
for God to create us in His image.
What does it mean for anyone
to create anything in his image?
monkfish
They sound quite poetic to me.
How about you?
Do you usually chew on your cookbook
instead of reading it?
monkfish
You are like a fruit fly
which insists that seasons do not exist.
Just because you cannot see the big picture,
you think you already know whatever there is to know.
Such hubris is unbecoming to limited beings like us.
How do we even know our knowledge is limited?
monkfish
Flat reasoning again.
The whole world KNOWN TO THE NARRATOR was covered.
You really should try to read books
from the perspective of the writers
as well as your own perspective.
bob young
I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'
bob young
It also shows, if we take the other argument, god was
ignorant of the existence of Mt. Everest.
monkfish
Do you really think the scientific method is a fact?
Do you really think all scientific theories are facts?
Have you read any book on philosophy of science?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science
monkfish
Extreme flat reasoning.
God is not what you think it is.
People at the time of the flood
did not know much about the world.
Just as you don't know much about the universe
and even our scientists don't know much about it
before the big bang.
You anachronistic arguments are so silly
until we realize that you sincerely believe
there could be an entity out there which can
put the eternal truths in language,
to be true for all ages.
That faith is incredible unscientific
and philosophically clueless.
You are so clueless about language.
Kindly read this carefully, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Language
bob young
You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on
was not designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'
monkfish
If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit.
Yes, I would like that.
Fred Jones
How can you be sure they are real christians?
How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian?
If you were in a room standing next to some body would you know if that person
is a christian?
How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct you?
Would you see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and obey the great
loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god?
Do you know what it means to be corrected by god.
Pastor Frank
news:481176AE...@netvigator.com...
>
> "Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
> only way you can
> accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
> it can't be taken on its own merits."
> [Dan Barker]
>
merits", or should I say god? You look at your child and have faith, that he
will amount to something some day. You even spend your hard-earned money to
send him to school to learn something useful, ....all on faith alone.
Or do you require your child to amount to something first, for you to
put your faith in him "on his own merits"?
Pastor Frank
news:0001HW.C4374AD9...@news-server.rgv.rr.com...
today. Do I need to explain that to you?
Pastor Frank
> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:9c5e6$48117ca1$d1d89a73$34...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>
>> isn't it? Unless you imagine it has value, it's just a little piece of
>> worthless paper. Animals and atheists attach no value to God, but
>> thinking people do, and that is the difference.
>>
> Frank you and I are nothing more than highly evolved animals.
"nothing more" to you? Where it should be the most exciting thing in the
world.
> It is the higher thinking part, the intelligence factor that sets humans
> apart from animal. It is because of that thinking part why god does not
> exist.
Only YOUR god doesn't exist. I have a display cabinet full of bona fide
existing gods, which are all for sale. Make me an offer!!!
Our Christian God is "love", ..a Quality, right up to and including the
absolute of perfection as in Jesus Christ, ...which we are to emulate.
> See, the people who are over you in what ever church you belong to set it
> up that way. It's is to control you.
<
Why would you want me, or anyone out of control. Look at your parents,
teachers, Police, judges etc. etc. who are all there to control you.
> And I see it is working quite well. See this religion thing is a lot like
> the implication or metaphor behind the name monkfish. I'll let you chew on
> that for a while.
I am glad it is. Only you seem to be suspicious, if not cynical and
paranoid as well. But those are the effect atheism has on people.
Pastor Frank
channel to the Mediterranean. I think you just love to chant atheist
mantras, all of which are irrelevant to what Jesus Christ is all about.
Pastor Frank
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
>>>>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you should
>>>>> be able to see that.
>>>>>
>>>>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
>>>>
>>>> You misunderstood.
>>>
>>
>> You think you know what God is
>> and you also think that
>> the god as you know it is imaginary.
>> That does not mean God is imaginary.
>> It just means you misunderstood God.
>> Now tell me what you think God is.
>
> Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no devil.
> There is no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no demons.
> There are no twenty four elders.There was not a world wide flood. There
> was no talking donkey. The book is fiction.
>
same people who define the word "heart" as nothing but a blood pump. No
other definitions or uses will be considered, Valentine be damned. LMAO
Are you a literalist fundamentalist atheist?
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>> > "monkfish" <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>> >> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
>> >>> heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
>> >>> should
>> >>> be able to see that.
>> >>> This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.
>> >>
>> >> You misunderstood.
>> >
>> > Love, what did I misunderstand then.
>>
>> You think you know what God is
>> and you also think that
>> the god as you know it is imaginary.
>> That does not mean God is imaginary.
>> It just means you misunderstood God.
>> Now tell me what you think God is.
>
> Prove me wrong.
> God used to live in the clouds. Now he exists outside the
> universe. Christians keep pushing God further and further
> away. You must unlearn what you have learned. ~ Yoda
> If God created man -- if he is the father of us all, why did
> he make the criminals, the insane, the deformed and idiotic?
> Should the mother, who clasps to her breast an idiot child,
> thank God?
> [Robert Green Ingersoll, from "Why I Am an Agnostic" (1896)]
>
you get more answers in Christian NGs, and because you are interested in
Christianity. Why do you cite people who have no knowledge of the God of
Christ? See below how Christ explains His God to a sceptical Philip.
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
The word "God" is not a proper name but a title of a position of
whatever is your standard of virtue and ideal of perfection against
which you measure all behaviour. (Jesus in Matthew. 5:48)
I.e. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Satan is: "...the god (theos)
of this world", i.e. reality. And again in Philippians 3:19, Paul says
there are people: "...whose God (theos) is their belly", i.e. gratification,
pleasure. Also, Jesus speaks of mammon being a god or devil,
representing the greed for possessions, money and power. (Mt:6:24:)
Jesus tells us in Jn:4:24 that His "GOD IS A SPIRIT", (i.e. akin to a
quality of attitude, like love and care which imbues a person and animates
the flesh), and "they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in
truth."
Jesus explains further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the
way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If
ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE
KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the
Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME
HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words
that I speak unto you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN
ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom
of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that LOVETH not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the LOVE that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in LOVE dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye LOVE one
another; as I have LOVED you, that ye also LOVE one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have LOVE one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye LOVE one another,
as I have LOVED you. Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Acts:17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
Proverbs 10:22 God is nearer than our own soul, closer than our most
secret thoughts.
Heb:1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Fred Jones
> "Fred Jones" <suppor...@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:qMydnYFx_KR4V4zV...@comcast.com...
>> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:9c5e6$48117ca1$d1d89a73$34...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>>
>>> Actually why should God NOT be "Imaginary" also. Money is imaginary,
>>> isn't it? Unless you imagine it has value, it's just a little piece of
>>> worthless paper. Animals and atheists attach no value to God, but thinking
>>> people do, and that is the difference.
>>>
>> Frank you and I are nothing more than highly evolved animals.
> I think it's a lot more, than just "nothing more". Why is everything
> "nothing more" to you? Where it should be the most exciting thing in the
> world.
>
>> It is the higher thinking part, the intelligence factor that sets humans
>> apart from animal. It is because of that thinking part why god does not
>> exist.
> Only YOUR god doesn't exist. I have a display cabinet full of bona fide
> existing gods, which are all for sale. Make me an offer!!!
> Our Christian God is "love", ..a Quality, right up to and including the
> absolute of perfection as in Jesus Christ, ...which we are to emulate.
>
>> See, the people who are over you in what ever church you belong to set it up
>> that way. It's is to control you.
> <
> Why would you want me, or anyone out of control. Look at your parents,
> teachers, Police, judges etc. etc. who are all there to control you.
>
My parents lost that control long ago, it's called leaving the nest.
Teachers are not in authority.
Police only have authority when they observe a crime.
The only time a judge is in command is when you are in his court, or when you by
law have been put under a sentence because of a conviction.
>>And I see it is working quite well. See this religion thing is a lot like the
>>implication or metaphor behind the name monkfish. I'll let you chew on that
>>for a while.
> I am glad it is. Only you seem to be suspicious, if not cynical and
> paranoid as well. But those are the effect atheism has on people.
>
Really Frank? Do you know what a monkfish is?
What is a monkfish Frank?
Fred Jones
Genesis 6:17. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the
earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven;
and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 6:7. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the
face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of
the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
The bible is using words that imply the entire life on earth not just an
intersection of a city. Or are you saying to only humans in existence at that
time at that point of history only lived to the local vicinity of this flood?
That the only animals were living at that location only?
Genesis 8:4. And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of
the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
Now dear Frank. There is evidence of a local flood in that area, in fact there
is evidence of reoccurring floods in that area. Now we also have to look at the
glaring contradictions of this most famous biblical event in human history. How
many animals was your god to lead into the ark?
When did Noah enter the ark?
How long did the flood last?
How long was the ark afloat?
When did the earth dry after the flood?
monkfish
Flippancy would not help you.
Do you hate God?
Fred Jones
Are there angles?
Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell.
Do you know what sin is?
How do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?
Is an action a sin if it against a sinner?
Semper Libèr® .
By using the test (of the spirits) we were given... Which, btw, you failed.
monkfish
All good questions.
What does it mean for you to sin?
Fred Jones
monkfish
To disobey God.
Fred Jones
And now you see one of the basic differences between us. I do not recognize your
god, there for I commit no sin.
monkfish
You are like a fool who is proud to be color blind
and thinks that he can ignore all traffic signals.
Shouldn't you do everything to figure out
how to read traffic signals instead?
bob young
Well NOW's your chance to define what *is* - define [prove]
the existence of Jesus and his all powerful dad LOL
in fact ROFLMAO
bob young
He is simply throwing back at you the type of stupid stuff
you throw at us
each time you have your back to the wall trying to 'show'
your god.
No we don't hate your god, all we ask is that it 'shows'
then all we athests will be no more..
bob young
"My child, my child, no god has ever given you an
instruction, every godlike instruction you have ever been
given has been given to you by another human.
That is why we keep telling you to grow up.
Oh....and your one line responses are becoming so
predictable, so weak, [or cute] or vacillating it it getting
near time to pull the plug on monkfish.
bob young
Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark
Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19
The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God
The story of Noah and the flood is only one of many
ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It
is an
impossible story.
1. The largest boat ever built could not even come close to
housing Noah,
his sons, wives and two of every type of animal on earth.
And this was a
boat built of wood many thousands of years ago. There are
1.7 million KNOWN
species of animals on this planet. This is patently
impossible, using only
materials and tools available to Noah, to build an arch
large enough to hold
all these creatures, together with suitable environments
for each of them
to live in, keeping them all separated so they don't eat or
kill each other.
And then provide room and an environments for many hundreds
of millions of
known species of insects, plants, molds etc. on this planet?
2. Where did they house all of the new born during this ten
month escapade?
3. In addition, the ship would have to carry a TEN MONTHS
supply of food and
fresh water for the people and thousands of animals for them
to survive.
What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate
would have gone
extinct. How did they dispose of the thousands of tons of
feces? It must
have been one stinking ship!
4. Now according to the Bible the earth was flooded for ten
months. This
would kill off all the vegetation. What did the animals eat
for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
5. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land.
But the dove
returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later,
the dove goes out
again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive
tree survive
the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they
certainly wouldn't
germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11.
6. And according to this myth, Noah was also over 600 years old!
This is a grossly implausible tale that ranks as greater
tale than Santa
Claus, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy!
Genesis 6:6
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth,
and his heart was
filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have
created, from the face
of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along
the ground, and
birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of
his time, and he
walked with God.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your
whole family,
because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2
Take with you seven
[a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and
two of every
kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also
seven of every kind
of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive
throughout the
earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth
for forty days
and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth
every living
creature I have made."
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came
on the earth. 7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives
entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean
animals, of
birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9
male and female,
came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And after
the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the
seventeenth day of the
second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep
burst forth, and
the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell
on the earth
forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and
Japheth, together with
his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.
14 They had with
them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock
according to
their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground
according to its
kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with
wings. 15 Pairs
of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came
to Noah and
entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and
female of every
living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut
him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as
the waters
increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The
waters rose and
increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the
surface of the
water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high
mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and
covered the
mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [b] , [c] 21
Every living
thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock,
wild animals, all
the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22
Everything on
dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
23 Every living
thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and
animals and the
creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the
air were wiped
from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in
the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
Sounds very much like the work of some primitive myth writer
to me
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Fred Jones
people to do great atrocities.
monkfish
God is prior to existence.
monkfish
God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.
Are time and space prior to existence?
monkfish
You are playing with the toy god
people abandoned thousands years ago.
No wonder it does not move.
We are talking about God for grownups here.
To do so, you need to understand
what it means for time to be prior to existence.
Can you do that?
monkfish
Still reading the toy stories?
Grow up and tell me
what it means for us to love our enemies?
duke
>God is rather like time and space
>but of course is much more and
>is prior to existence.
>Are time and space prior to existence?
No, but God is.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
>What does it mean for you to sin?
Tell God you'll decide and not him.
monkfish
Only if it exists in the mode presumed by you.
But, God is prior to existence,
and above right and wrong.
That means God is not something that can be blamed.
I know, it's not that easy to grasp.
But, even you would not dream of blaming
the law of gravity for killing building accident victims.
monkfish
Good for you.
What does it mean for God to exist?
How do you relate to God?
Is it necessary for God to exist?
Shouldn't it be acceptable as well
if God makes existence possible
and is not created to exist?
On the other hand,
if you are talking about Jesus Christ,
He should have existed and should exist.
What does it mean for Jesus Christ to exist?
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rprb14t5vh61oga59...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monk...@nowhere.org> wrote:
>
>>God is rather like time and space
>>but of course is much more and
>>is prior to existence.
>
>>Are time and space prior to existence?
>
> No, but God is.
no such thing as god duke, there is no god
>
> duke, brainwashed dumbass
monkfish
Do you know what God is?
duke
>On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:38:01 -0500, duke wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monk...@nowhere.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>God is rather like time and space
>>>but of course is much more and
>>>is prior to existence.
>>
>>>Are time and space prior to existence?
>>
>> No, but God is.
>>
>> duke, American-American
>> *****
>> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer." Pope Paul VI
>> *****
>
>
>Good for you.
>What does it mean for God to exist?
The Supreme Creator.
>How do you relate to God?
>Is it necessary for God to exist?
>Shouldn't it be acceptable as well
>if God makes existence possible
>and is not created to exist?
I don't know.
>On the other hand,
>if you are talking about Jesus Christ,
>He should have existed and should exist.
>What does it mean for Jesus Christ to exist?
God become man.
Pastor Frank
news:4812A9BB...@netvigator.com...
> monkfish wrote:
>>
>> Does that mean you have no faith
>> in the scientific method?
>
> I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'
>
you can only have faith in the fidelity of your wife, and you can never be
sure, that is unless you have chained her to the bed, or make her wear a
chastity belt. Is that what you do, to derive at the "facts" you need to be
sure, without needing faith?
Pastor Frank
> Fred Jones wrote:
>> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:f0b53$48117c9a$d1d89a73$34...@PRIMUS.CA...
>> > "Fred Jones" <suppor...@juno.com> wrote in message
>> > news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3V...@comcast.com...
>> >>
>> >> flood? And
>> >> have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might
>> >> actually
>> >> mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
>> >> therefore
>> >> Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
>> >> people
>> >> understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand
>> >> that Mt.
>> >> Everest was never covered in flood water,
>> >
>> > known
>> > world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?
>>
>> The "known world" did not know about the America's yet either. Your
>> argument is
>> weak like you. The myth of the flood says the whole earth was covered. In
>> fact
>> Genesis 7:20 says the mountains were covered. It does not say only half
>> covered,
>> it says covered. So you are implying the flood was contained in some kind
>> of
>> bubble so that the flood was only in the local geological area. That
>> means the
>> story is just that a story. It is a lie.
>
> ignorant of the existence of Mt. Everest.
>
No. I guess we need to congratulate both of you again on believing in
miracles, i.e. like molluscs walking all the way up on Mt. Everest, their
remains to be found embedded there by mountain climbers.
We would rather believe, that the area was once covered by the sea. Do
you mind?
Pastor Frank
news:96IQj.51514$r76...@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
> "Bill Bowden" <wronga...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:29c9df58-e10f-4b74...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 24, 11:02 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>> "Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3V...@comcast.com...
>>
>> > Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood?
>> > And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible
>> > might
>> > actually mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
>> > therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and
>> > intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
>> > They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water,
>>
>> Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the known
>> world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?
>
> off the edge if you ventured too far out.
> Did Jesus think the world was flat, or was he wiser than that?
> -Bill
>
For most people the world is pretty much flat. For me it's concave,
because I live in a valley. Most likely you believe it's round, like a
hockey puck perhaps, because they taught you that in school, and you believe
your teachers.
I remember my teacher teaching us that the earth is a flattened ball,
being wider at the equator, and that's what I answered on the test, because
it was expected of me to regurgitate what we were taught, without insisting
on evidence.
Apparently you believe everything you were taught as a child, except the
existence of that scary invisible ogre in the sky, called god, which is out
to punish you for ever, for everything you did wrong, even if you did it
only once. LOL
bob young
Prove it
bob young
Can you loonie?
monkfish
We need to know whether we are talking about
the ontological priority or the epistemological priority.
But, as you are clearly not ready to do serioius theology yet,
we need to go back to the level of science and just ask
whether we can prove the existence of anything
without referring to time.
Can anything be proven to exist without duration?
monkfish
> monkfish wrote:
>>
>> God is prior to existence.
>
> Prove it
What kind of proof do you have in mind?
Pastor Frank
news:uKOdnXtx4L_KqYvV...@earthlink.com...
full of existing gods, who are all for sale, for the won't lift a wooden
finger for me. But perhaps they will for you? Make me an offer.
Pastor Frank
idea / ideal or fantasy) and the word became flesh in Jesus Christ. That is
why Jesus Christ is our God incarnate.
bob young
Why should I read the ramblings of a frightened primitive
living in ignorance and fear?
Ramblings that cannot be substantiated any further back than
the first ever printed bible, about 1,200 years AFTER the
claimed events. Did 'John' write in English? If not, how
many translators were involved prior to any English version?
You do not know of course.
It is now year 2008 GROW UP
monkfish
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >>
>> >> God is prior to existence.
>> >
>> > Prove it
>> >
>> Read John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the word (an abstraction of an
>> idea / ideal or fantasy) and the word became flesh in Jesus Christ. That
>> is why Jesus Christ is our God incarnate.
>
> Why should I read the ramblings of a frightened primitive
> living in ignorance and fear?
> Ramblings that cannot be substantiated any further back than
> the first ever printed bible, about 1,200 years AFTER the
> claimed events. Did 'John' write in English? If not, how
> many translators were involved prior to any English version?
> You do not know of course.
>
> It is now year 2008 GROW UP
Still clueless?
Are you still trying to prove that
language is prior to sentences?
--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header because atheists there
consider quoting the Bible proselytizing and as such it is prohibited by
their undebatable policy.
--
The best way to handle spams is to ignore them. But if you must reply to
them, you should at least set the followup-to header to something other
than your own newsgroup.
Pastor Frank
>
> And now you see one of the basic differences between us. I do not
> recognize your
> god, there for I commit no sin.
>
against your own god, that is unless you are perfect, for near everyone has
his own set of principles he seeks to live up to, and those principles ARE
your god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We
therefore know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord
and Saviour. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
Adonis
> "Fred Jones" <suppor...@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:b_ednS7HMKiyp4jV...@comcast.com...
>>
>> And now you see one of the basic differences between us. I do not recognize
>> your
>> god, there for I commit no sin.
>>
> You may not commit any sin again "my" God, but you certainly commit sins
> against your own god, that is unless you are perfect, for near everyone has
> his own set of principles he seeks to live up to, and those principles ARE
> your god.
Your a very confused person.
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> >>
>> > What does it mean for you to sin?
>>
>> To disobey God.
>
> "My child, my child, no god has ever given you an
> instruction, every godlike instruction you have ever been
> given has been given to you by another human.
> That is why we keep telling you to grow up.
>
therefore is to set your aims low and short of perfection. See below
Pastor Frank
To fail occasionally living up to high standards is not hypocritical,
but it is hypocritical to succeed occasionally in living up to one's low
standards.
--anon--
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>>
>> Do you hate God?
>
> He is simply throwing back at you the type of stupid stuff
> you throw at us
> each time you have your back to the wall trying to 'show'
> your god.
> No we don't hate your god, all we ask is that it 'shows'
> then all we athests will be no more..
>
because our Christian God is not that invisible creature in the sky your
grand pappy told you about, you keep ignoring it. see below again
Pastor Frank
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:48155A40...@netvigator.com...
> > monkfish wrote:
> >>
> >> Do you hate God?
> >
> > He is simply throwing back at you the type of stupid stuff
> > you throw at us
> > each time you have your back to the wall trying to 'show'
> > your god.
> > No we don't hate your god, all we ask is that it 'shows'
> > then all we athests will be no more..
> >
> I don't think you mean that. I showed you the proof many times............
L I A R
Pastor Frank
>
> If I were an angle sent by god how would you know?
> Are there angles?
> Is there a real devil?
> Is there a real hell?
> How do you know there is a real hell.
> Do you know what sin is?
> How do you define sin?
> If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?
>
Apparently you haven't found any satisfactory answers for these
questions yet. For many finding a satisfactory answer is the purpose of
their lives. That requires a lot of thought, and me telling your answers
you have heard before and rejected, serves no purpose. I.e. an atheist may
define the word god as an invisible old man in the sky, which obviously does
not exist. But a theist may define the word God as an ideal of perfection
to live up to, as exemplified by Jesus Christ, and which therefore does
exists.
Let's see whether you can't find sensible definitions for the words:
angel, hell, devil etc. on your own.
bob young
Religious jargon - all of them
Thom Madura
Not quite - AN angel is a Baseball Player from a certain California
Baseball team.
Devil is a term used for spiciness in cooking - hence Deviled eggs.