Re: heaven or hell
Pastor Frank
news:47EF1A49...@netvigator.com...
> giladan wrote:
>>
>> This one got my attention.
>> How about you?
>> Coreen
>> http://discoverthebook.org/
>> The King is Coming!
>> So many people around us could die in the next year--unexpectedly and
>> rapidly, and most of them LOST. They would enter at death the place
>> called by various terms in God's Word--the grave, hades, hell, the
>> pit, and sheol.
>> That is a place that has been feared since the earliest times of life
>> on this planet. It is a dark place of endless night, a dreary place of
>> never hope. Most people think about this place more and more the older
>> we get.
>
> Really. Well I am approaching eighty and I laugh abouty it.
> Read on:
> Someone in heaven heard that his best friend down on earth had just
> passed away.
> ŅOh I'm so looking forward to seeing him againÓ the man said.
> ŅSorryÓ said God, ŅBut he will not be coming here because he has been a
> little more sinful than you, so we will be sending him to that other
> place we call HellÓ.
> So here's this man, sitting for eternity in paradise next to his loving
> God, whilst his friend, who had been just a little more sinful than he,
> is about to roast for eternity on burning coals in a place called Hell.
> Is it conceivable that anything could be more banal, juvenile, or crassly
> stupid?
> Bob
> Humanist Brit.
>
The only one "banal and crassly stupid" is you Bob, for not knowing yet,
that no one goes to heaven because he is a little better, or even a lot less
sinful, than another. Heaven is solely for repentant sinners, no other need
apply.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:47EF1A49...@netvigator.com...
> > giladan wrote:
> >>
> >> This one got my attention.
> >> How about you?
> >> Coreen
> >> http://discoverthebook.org/
> >> The King is Coming!
> >> So many people around us could die in the next year--unexpectedly and
> >> rapidly, and most of them LOST. They would enter at death the place
> >> called by various terms in God's Word--the grave, hades, hell, the
> >> pit, and sheol.
> >> That is a place that has been feared since the earliest times of life
> >> on this planet. It is a dark place of endless night, a dreary place of
> >> never hope. Most people think about this place more and more the older
> >> we get.
> >
> > Really. Well I am approaching eighty and I laugh abouty it.
> > Read on:
> > Someone in heaven heard that his best friend down on earth had just
> > passed away.
> > “Oh I'm so looking forward to seeing him again™ the man said.
> > “Sorry™ said God, “But he will not be coming here because he has been a
> > little more sinful than you, so we will be sending him to that other
> > place we call Hell™.
> > So here's this man, sitting for eternity in paradise next to his loving
> > God, whilst his friend, who had been just a little more sinful than he,
> > is about to roast for eternity on burning coals in a place called Hell.
> > Is it conceivable that anything could be more banal, juvenile, or crassly
> > stupid?
> > Bob
> > Humanist Brit.
> >
> The only one "banal and crassly stupid" is you Bob, for not knowing yet,
> that no one goes to heaven because he is a little better, or even a lot less
> sinful, than another. Heaven is solely for repentant sinners, no other need
> apply.
Oh, so those who are good for a lifetime time don't get to
go? You appear more
contrary and ridiculous by the day.
The degree of sin is talked about and hurled as a threat
from the
pulpit by the the clergy at their followers constantly as
you full well know.
[Perhaps in a different 'godly
place' to yours Frank.]
Followers of religions are, after all, a fickle
and a rather mixed up bunch. The latter being one of the
strongest arguments
in favor of atheism there is.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
>> news:47EF1A49...@netvigator.com...
>> >
true of any Bible believing denomination. You don't go to heaven as a reward
for being good and there are no "arguments in favour of atheism", which is
all based on infantile definitions of the word "god". i.e. an invisible
divine creature in the sky.
Grow up Bob while you still can, and make the acquaintance of the Christ
of the NT Bible. He will set you straight. See Jesus talking to Philip
below, who was a sceptic like you.
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
The word "God" is not a proper name but a title of a position of
whatever is your standard of virtue and ideal of perfection against
which you measure all behaviour. (Jesus in Matthew. 5:48)
I.e. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Satan is: "...the god (theos)
of this world", i.e. reality. And again in Philippians 3:19, Paul says
there are people: "...whose God (theos) is their belly", i.e. gratification,
pleasure. Also, Jesus speaks of mammon being a god or devil,
representing the greed for possessions, money and power. (Mt:6:24:)
Jesus tells us in Jn:4:24 that His "GOD IS A SPIRIT", (i.e. akin to a
quality of attitude, like love and care which imbues a person), and "they
that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Jesus explains
further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth, and
the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye
should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and
yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE
FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not
that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto
you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH
THE WORKS."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom
of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that LOVETH not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the LOVE that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in LOVE dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye LOVE one
another; as I have LOVED you, that ye also LOVE one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have LOVE one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye LOVE one another,
as I have LOVED you. Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Acts:17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
Proverbs 10:22 God is nearer than our own soul, closer than our most
secret thoughts.
Heb:1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
LIAR
> and there are no "arguments in favour of atheism",
Not in your world, but of course your world is steeped in mysticism and
superstition,
so not surprising is it?
> which is
> all based on infantile definitions of the word "god". i.e. an invisible
> divine creature in the sky.
Atheism rejects all gods, the early one that Christians projected, [just above
mountain tops], and the later version that Pastor Frank was forced to make up
in his frustration at having to dispense with the mountain top, above the
clouds version that many modern thinking people also clearly reject.
The true 'thinkers' are atheists. They say "Demonstrate to me your god and
until you do I will reject it." That is clear, concise, honest and logical.
All the things that superstition isn't
>
> Grow up Bob while you still can, and make the acquaintance of the Christ
> of the NT Bible. He will set you straight. See Jesus talking to Philip
> below, who was a sceptic like you.
Great .......wallowing in translated stories from thousands of years ago,
stories so old they cannot be verified.
How convenient,
How disgustingly dishonest
[If you wanna reject the last bit you are going to have to prove 'He' ever
existed, using verifiable data, rather than extracts from an old book written
by desert dwellers of very doubtful origins.]
bob
You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of
magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the
price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent
enough.
[Aldous Leonard Huxley]
Pastor Frank
Our Christian "God is love" and atheists, except you perhaps, don't
reject that god. Furthermore that are lots of existing objects animists
consider gods, and atheists don't reject any of those. Again, atheists only
reject their fantasy god, the invisible sky ogre, which was used by their
parents to scare them into better behaviour.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into
the kingdom of heaven. -
Matt. 18:3
A rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. -
Matt. 19:23
LIAR
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:49:02 -0500, bob young wrote:
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >>
>> >> We all know money is powerful.
>> >> But we don't know how it works in all cases. We have to figure it out
>> >> case by case.
>> >> But first thin first.
>> >> To be powerful, money should exist.
>> >> What does it mean for money to exist? At least for you,
>> >> can God exist in the same way money exists?
>> >> Does love exist in the same way money exists?
>> >
>> > Do Crackpots exist like Frank exists?
>> > I fear they do
>>
>> I gather those questions are way too difficult for you.
>> Let's start with something a lot simpler.
>> Do you love your money?
>
> Take you stupid nonsense elsewhere
>
Where else, Bob? It's you who is spaming and trolling our pristine
religious and philosophical NGs. There is no atheist NG in the header.
The question is very valid here, for in reality money is just a
worthless small piece of printed paper, yet you value it highly, believe in
it, have faith in it, and desire, if not love it. Yet it's entire value is
solely in your mind, and it regulates your behaviour, ...and so are the
spiritual values God represents, for our Christian "God is love" (1 John
4:8,16) become fully manifested in Jesus Christ giving His life for us
sinners on the cross of Calvary. We therefore know our God and have seen Him
through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
.
bob young
Rubbish all we see here is monkfish using a money concept to
try to convince others the invisible never to be seen, never
to be heard from god 'exists'. IOW - grasping at straws, as usual.
Contortions of this sort to try to prove a god that is
supposed to have created everything 'exists' and you say we
are the ones that need help !
monkfish
Money is just for the start.
We will get to science soon,
and you will be surprised to find out that
you believed in God all along.
--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.
bob young
So you would love to believe, but you are wrong.
My kindergarted school mistress had me believing, and the
teacher at Sunday school hade me believing, later on when my
brain developed I realised my mistake and I am hardly likely
to make a second mistake time at my age.
I could make a long list of lies and impossibilities told by
those well meaning ladies mentioned above. They were not
aware they were lies, of course, but being educated girls
they must have an idea that three wise men could not
possibly followed a star thru the night; for starters. !
monkfish
What is your ultimate point of reference?
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
>> news:480DD417...@netvigator.com...
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:49:02 -0500, bob young wrote:
>> >> > monkfish wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We all know money is powerful.
>> >> >> But we don't know how it works in all cases. We have to figure it
>> >> >> out
>> >> >> To be powerful, money should exist.
>> >> >> What does it mean for money to exist? At least for you,
>> >> >> can God exist in the same way money exists?
>> >> >> Does love exist in the same way money exists?
>> >> >
>> >> > Do Crackpots exist like Frank exists?
>> >> > I fear they do
>> >>
>> >> I gather those questions are way too difficult for you.
>> >> Let's start with something a lot simpler.
>> >> Do you love your money?
>> >
>> > Take you stupid nonsense elsewhere
>>
>> Where else, Bob? It's you who is spaming and trolling our pristine
>> religious and philosophical NGs. There is no atheist NG in the header.
>> The question is very valid here, for in reality money is just a
>> worthless small piece of printed paper, yet you value it highly, believe
>> in
>> it, have faith in it, and desire,
>
> Rubbish
>
full of "rubbish"? Do you love "rubbish" that much, that you waste your
entire life wanting to be in its presence?
> all we see here is monkfish using a money concept to
> try to convince others the invisible never to be seen, never
> to be heard from god 'exists'. IOW - grasping at straws, as usual.
>
Not the "god" of YOUR definition, is it? LOL
> Contortions of this sort to try to prove a god that is
> supposed to have created everything 'exists' and you say we
> are the ones that need help !
>
If this universe is virtual reality, as religion will have it, then what
generates it is indeed "creating everything that exists", don't you believe
that?
Pastor Frank
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:59:05 -0500, bob young wrote:
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Take you stupid nonsense elsewhere
>>> >
>>> Where else, Bob? It's you who is spaming and trolling our pristine
>>> religious and philosophical NGs. There is no atheist NG in the header.
>>> The question is very valid here, for in reality money is just a
>>> worthless small piece of printed paper, yet you value it highly,
>>> believe in it, have faith in it, and desire,
>>
>> Rubbish
>
in these, our pristine Christian NGs.
Pastor Frank
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
bob young
Common sense and facts
monkfish
Whose?
Pastor Frank
>
theist fantasies in your childhood and now waste your entire life rejecting
those infantile fantasies, instead of finding definitions that make sense?
Should we feel sorry for you, or pray for you, or do both?
Can't follow a star at night? You probably mean during the day, don't
you?
bob young
> You were born an atheist like all of us...........
Bloody fool, one needs to be conscious of others claiming
gods before one can become an atheist.
You become more irrational by the day
>and you got some infantile........
We leave the use of that word to those groveling to
imaginary gods.
> theist fantasies in your childhood and now waste your entire life rejecting
> those infantile fantasies, instead of finding definitions that make sense?
> Should we feel sorry for you, or pray for you, or do both?
> Can't follow a star at night? You probably mean during the day, don't
> you?
I notice you were careful enough to make no attempt to prop
up the 'Three Wise men' yarn - you, and your religion, are
both so transparent and childish.
bob young
monkfish wrote:
>
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:23:03 -0500, bob young wrote:
>
> > monkfish wrote:
> >>
> >> What is your ultimate point of reference?
> >
> > Common sense and facts
>
> Whose?
Anyone's
Try it some time
it might 'reveal' something
monkfish
> monkfish wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:23:03 -0500, bob young wrote:
>>
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What is your ultimate point of reference?
>> >
>> > Common sense and facts
>>
>> Whose?
>
> Anyone's
>
> Try it some time
> it might 'reveal' something
You seem to believe in "others."
What does it mean for others to exist?
Do you know how to prove their existence?
Pastor Frank
There isn't any atheist group in the header. Please post you atheism to
atheist groups, willya?
bob young
monkfish wrote:
>
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:57:08 -0500, bob young wrote:
>
> > monkfish wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:23:03 -0500, bob young wrote:
> >>
> >> > monkfish wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> What is your ultimate point of reference?
> >> >
> >> > Common sense and facts
> >>
> >> Whose?
> >
> > Anyone's
> >
> > Try it some time
> > it might 'reveal' something
>
> You seem to believe in "others."
> What does it mean for others to exist?
> Do you know how to prove their existence?
I know a fucking idiot when I see one
monkfish
> monkfish wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:57:08 -0500, bob young wrote:
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:23:03 -0500, bob young wrote:
>> >> > monkfish wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What is your ultimate point of reference?
>> >> >
>> >> > Common sense and facts
>> >>
>> >> Whose?
>> >
>> > Anyone's
>> >
>> > Try it some time
>> > it might 'reveal' something
>>
>> You seem to believe in "others."
>> What does it mean for others to exist?
>> Do you know how to prove their existence?
>
> I know a fucking idiot when I see one
I can see that you are hurting.
That's because of your blind faith
that you already know everything
about what's real in the universe.
As soon as you get rid of such hubris,
you will be free to be grateful for everything.
--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header because atheists there
consider quoting the Bible proselytizing and as such it is prohibited by
their undebatable policy.
--
The best way to handle spams is to ignore them. But if you must reply to
them, you should at least set the followup-to header to something other
than your own newsgroup.
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:23:03 -0500, bob young wrote:
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What is your ultimate point of reference?
>> >
>> > Common sense and facts
>>
>> Whose?
>
> it might 'reveal' something
>
I didn't think you would believe in "revelation". And whose "common
sense" are you talking about? I'm quite sure you don't mean "anyone's", for
that would include theists.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> You were born an atheist like all of us...........
>
> Bloody fool, one needs to be conscious of others claiming
> gods before one can become an atheist.
>
an exception?
> You become more irrational by the day
>
Is your truism above supposed to be evidence of your rationality?
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:481557BC...@netvigator.com...
> > Pastor Frank wrote:
> >>
> >> You were born an atheist like all of us...........
> >
> > Bloody fool, one needs to be conscious of others claiming
> > gods before one can become an atheist.
> >
> Newborns usually aren't "conscious of others claiming gods", or are you
> an exception?
Newborns are not atheists you bloody fool
>
> > You become more irrational by the day
> >
> Is your truism above supposed to be evidence of your rationality?
>
Nope - the evidience is what you provide some of us every day,
for those, that is, who have the time to open your
repetitive theories
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
>> news:481557BC...@netvigator.com...
>> > Pastor Frank wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You were born an atheist like all of us...........
>> >
>> > Bloody fool, one needs to be conscious of others claiming
>> > gods before one can become an atheist.
>> >
>> Newborns usually aren't "conscious of others claiming gods", or are
>> you
>> an exception?
>
> Newborns are not atheists you bloody fool
>
theists, or we would all be rolling on the floor laughing. Newborns are
REAL atheists, meaning without god(s), not like your definition implying
that atheism means Anti-theism. Newborns are obviously innocent if
Anti-theism, but not you Bob.
I bet now you will tell us, that newborns are neither theist nor
atheist, but I bet also you won't tell us what they are, only what they are
not. ROFL
That's why I keep answering you Bob, for you sure come up with some
doozies.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:482D5236...@netvigator.com...
> > Pastor Frank wrote:
> >> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> >> news:481557BC...@netvigator.com...
> >> > Pastor Frank wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> You were born an atheist like all of us...........
> >> >
> >> > Bloody fool, one needs to be conscious of others claiming
> >> > gods before one can become an atheist.
> >> >
> >> Newborns usually aren't "conscious of others claiming gods", or are
> >> you
> >> an exception?
> >
> > Newborns are not atheists you bloody fool
> >
> Glad you didn't actually say what you meant, i.e. that newborns are
> theists, or we would all be rolling on the floor laughing.
They are nothing of the sort. Newborns are innocents, free
from any dogma, that comes later as hundred percent of it is
learned from grown ups the same as everything else.
Jewish children growp up Jewish, Hindu one's Hindus. you
really are a Bloody Fool
Newborns are
> REAL atheists, meaning without god(s),
It means nothing of thre sort. Atheism is a rejection of
gods. Gods have to be projected fist before any atheisst
can reject them. Children can no do that.
not like your definition implying
> that atheism means Anti-theism. Newborns are obviously innocent if
> Anti-theism, but not you Bob.
> I bet now you will tell us, that newborns are neither theist nor
> atheist, but I bet also you won't tell us what they are, only what they are
> not. ROFL
They are *innocent* as you FULL WELL KNOW until some
charlatan of your ilk gets hold of them.
Bob
The humanist
CHILDREN
"If, in any culture, children are taught, 'We are all
equally unworthy in the sight of God'
"If, in any culture, children are taught, 'You are born in
sin and are sinful by nature'
"If children are given a message that amounts to 'Don't
think, don't question, *believe*'
"If children are given a message that amounts to 'Who are
you to place your mind above that of the priest, the
minister, the rabbi?'
"If children are told, 'If you have value it is not because
of anything you have done or could ever do, it is only
because God loves you'
"If children are told, 'Submission to what you cannot
understand is the beginning of morality'
"If children are instructed, 'Do not be "willful",
self-assertiveness is the sin of pride'
"If children are instructed, 'Never think that you belong to
yourself'
"If children are informed, 'In any clash between your
judgement and that of your religious authorities, it is your
authorities you must believe',
"If children are informed, 'Self-sacrifice is the foremost
virtue and the noblest duty'
"- then *consider what will be the likely consequences for
the practice of living consciously, or the practice of
self-assertiveness, or any of the other pillars of healthy self-esteem*."
[Nathaniel Branden, _The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem_,
Bantam Books, (New York, 1994), p. 295-296]
CHRISTIANS
"I'm an atheist . . . thank God."
Allen held no grudge against God, "because I don't believe
in Him, but a grudge against all the evil things that are
done in His name, certainly, and a grudge against the way
they tried to get inside my head when I was child".
[Dave Allen, Irish comedian 1968-2005]
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
>> news:482D5236...@netvigator.com...
>> > Pastor Frank wrote:
>> >> "bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:481557BC...@netvigator.com...
>> >> > Pastor Frank wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You were born an atheist like all of us...........
>> >> >
>> >> > Bloody fool, one needs to be conscious of others claiming
>> >> > gods before one can become an atheist.
>> >> >
>> >> Newborns usually aren't "conscious of others claiming gods", or
>> >> are
>> >> you an exception?
>> >
>> > Newborns are not atheists you bloody fool
>>
>> Glad you didn't actually say what you meant, i.e. that newborns are
>> theists, or we would all be rolling on the floor laughing.
>
> They are nothing of the sort. Newborns are innocents, free
> learned from grown ups the same as everything else.
>
'without', not anti as you want to have it, and therefore new-borns qualify
as atheists.