Re: IS THERE ANY REAL GOD?
Pastor Frank
news:0WHVj.29652$7a....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> "Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2008051116015916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2008-05-10 20:23:27 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> said:
>>
>>> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide
>>> objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need
>>> to
>>> cater to.
>>
>> As soon as you supply us with a description of what you understand by the
>> word 'God' we'll be in a position to see if there are any facts that
>> would would suffice as evidence for its existence. Until then any facts
>> we advance can just be waved airily aside by yourself.
>
> god ( g¼d) n. 1. God a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent,
> omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of
> faith and worship in monotheistic religions. b. The force, effect, or a
> manifestation or aspect of this being. c. Christian Science " Infinite
> Mind; Spirit; Soul; Principle; Life; Truth; Love " (Mary Baker Eddy). 2. A
> being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a
> people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or
> reality. 3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol. 4. One that is
> worshiped, idealized, or followed: money was their god. 5. A very handsome
> man. 6. A powerful ruler or despote.
>
Obviously written by an atheist. It doesn't square with the definition
given by ANY great religious reformer, let alone Jesus Christ, whose
definition I quote below. Do you see any similarity to what you wrote?
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
The word "God" is not a proper name but a title of a position of
whatever is your standard of virtue and ideal of perfection against
which you measure all behaviour. (Jesus in Matthew. 5:48)
I.e. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Satan is: "...the god (theos)
of this world", i.e. reality, to which Atheists reference. And again in a
Philippians 3:19, Paul says there are people: "...whose God (theos) is their
belly", i.e. gratification, pleasure, to which Hedonists reference. Also,
Jesus speaks of mammon being a god or devil, representing the greed for
possessions, money and power, to which most people reference. (Mt:6:24:)
Jesus tells us in Jn:4:24 that His "GOD IS A SPIRIT", (i.e. akin to a
quality of attitude, like love and care [1Jn 4:8,16] which imbues a person
and animates the flesh), and "they that worship him must worship him in
spirit and in truth."
Jesus explains further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the
way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If
ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE
KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the
Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME
HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words
that I speak unto you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN
ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom
of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that LOVETH not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the LOVE that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in LOVE dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye LOVE one
another; as I have LOVED you, that ye also LOVE one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have LOVE one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye LOVE one another,
as I have LOVED you. Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Acts:17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
Proverbs 10:22 God is nearer than our own soul, closer than our most
secret thoughts.
Heb:1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Pastor Frank
news:2008051116015916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2008-05-10 20:23:27 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> said:
>>
>> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide
>> objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to
>> cater to.
>
> As soon as you supply us with a description of what you understand by the
> word 'God' we'll be in a position to see if there are any facts that would
> would suffice as evidence for its existence. Until then any facts we
> advance can just be waved airily aside by yourself.
>
or devil. (see below) You still think of god being some invisible creature
in the sky. That isn't God and it doesn't exist, other than in your
imagination.
Pastor Frank
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We
therefore know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord
and Saviour. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
Pastor Frank
> "Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2008051116015916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2008-05-10 20:23:27 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> said:
>>>
>>> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide
>>> objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need
>>> to
>>> cater to.
>>
>> As soon as you supply us with a description of what you understand by the
>> word 'God' we'll be in a position to see if there are any facts that
>> would would suffice as evidence for its existence. Until then any facts
>> we advance can just be waved airily aside by yourself.
>
> Pick anyone you like.
How about listening to the the Jesus Christ of the NT Bible who knows
better than any of us what or who His God is?
Pastor Frank
>> On 2008-05-11 15:50:57 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> said:
>>> "Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2008051116015916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2008-05-10 20:23:27 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> said:
>>>>
>>>>> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide
>>>>> objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need
>>>>> to cater to.
>>>>
>>>> As soon as you supply us with a description of what you understand by
>>>> the word 'God' we'll be in a position to see if there are any facts
>>>> that would
>>>> would suffice as evidence for its existence. Until then any facts we
>>>> advance can just be waved airily aside by yourself.
>>>
>>> How about Jesus, Allah ot any the other hundreds of claimed claimed
>>> Gods?
>>> Pick anyone you like.
>>
>> the books of the New Testament, the extra-biblical letters and other
>> documents and the very existence of the Christian church. Whether he was
>> God or not is another matter.
>
> No this is just unauthenticated opinion - nothing more.
> Why do you post this drivel???
>
You forgot to post your "authenticated" opinion. Yes Bill, let's see you
actually back up your assertions, or "drivel" and quote authoritative
sources,
Pastor Frank
news:48275e24$0$12969$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> Bill M wrote:
>>
>> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide
>> objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to
>> cater to.
>>
die, than live deprived of the opportunity to "cater to" our God, for our
Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We therefore
know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.
part of his definition.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> Atheists ... therefore can't see manifestations of
> love and care in human beings
You are arrogant and incorrect.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
Adonis
> On 2008-05-17 15:38:13 +0100, "Adonis" <zeroca...@msn.com> said:
>
>>> "Hundreds" of years later? Hardly. A few decades perhaps. But don't let
>>> facts get in the way of your opinions, will you?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Facts are the basis of opinions. The fact is, nobody really knows who
>> authored the works contained in the bible. The dates of the writings are not
>> agreed on.
>
> But the degree of disgreement is not wide enough to allow 'hundreds of years'
> to be at all reasonable. The Gospels were written in the later 1st Century -
> there is near-universal consensus about that.
>
Yea, I'll agree to that. The gospels were written much later, now with that out
of the way, what scriptures did jesus teach and refer to then?
>> What else is not agreed on? Is the book to be taken literally or
>> figuratively?
>
> Everything's so black and white with you, isn't it?
>
>> Is the collection of stories the word of god or not.
>
> Depends what you mean. If you mean literally that God dictated it in some way,
> then no.
>
>> If it is the word of god, what part? Is the character god the same god in
>> both the OT and NT? Is the character jesus god or not. Did the events like
>> the flood, burning bush the did not burn, talking donkey, the talking
>> serpent, dead people that have been dead for more than a brief time coming
>> back to life, food falling from the sky, devils causing pigs to commit
>> suicide.
>
> Some yes, some no.
Which leads to whom decides what is "divine inspiration" and what is gibberish?
If this "divine god can "inspire" people to create a manuscript that by most
christians is claimed to be the word and instruction manual from god, this same
god can by "divine inspiration" write in that book false hoods. Your own
reasoning on this matter is a paradox.
>
>> This book is supposed to be the revelation of this god that created this
>> earth and all that is in it, in what can only be described as a miracle given
>> the amount of time the bible said it took. The true facts are that all the
>> stories of the bible were borrowed, copied, copied and changed slightly to
>> fit what the author is trying to say, from other writings form societies that
>> are far older than the bible.
>
> "All the stories of the Bible?" Surely not. You generalise much too broadly
> here. Some stories (the Noah story being a good example) are reworkings of
> older stories, but they are reworked to reflect the author's religious
> insights (inspiration, if you like) and to communicate something to his
> readers
>
Yup; the Noah story is a redo. If you read it in it's context, it is not about
the author's religious insights. There is no moral of the story, it is written
as an event that is claiming to be fact about this loving god admiting a mistake
and his correction of that mistake.. And yes; ALL the stories are a redo of
older, much older societies. The death and resurrection. The virgin birth. The
hero who through all are saved to salvation. It is not new and unique to the
bible.
>> The bible is nothing more than a ancient version of the Hollywood movie
>> remake, only this one was the money maker so the old ones were forgotten.
>
> You do talk some gibberish, don't you?
>
Pastor Frank
news:OK6dnQEtcM8xIbbV...@comcast.com...> news:2008051418350316807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2008-05-14 18:01:04 +0100, "Adonis" <zeroca...@msn.com> said:
>>> "Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>> On 2008-05-14 05:22:56 +0100, "Adonis" <zeroca...@msn.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>>>> The bible also states it is infallible,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Care to cite chapter and verse for where the Bible says this?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 Tim 3:16.
>>>>
>>>> "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is suitable for
>>>> doctrine, for correction, for reproof, for instruction in
>>>> righteousness." No mention of infallibility there. No mention that its
>>>> words are God's.
>>>>
>>> What does the phrase "inspired by god mean"?
>>> The implication is saying the words contained in this very poorly
>>> written bibliography are gods words.
>>
>> No, that simply doesn't follow at all. It can be anything from sudden
>> insight, to recognition of a pattern of events, to full-blown vision. I
>> know of no normal understanding or usage of the word "inspiration" that
>> implies that people behave like biological dictaphones and there is no
>> indication in the Bible that this is what is implied there either.
>> If, for example, a composer is inspired by a person's actions, as
>> Beethoven was inspired by Napoleon to write his 'Eroica' symphony for
>> example, we do not attribute the melody etc to Napoleon.
>> Moreover, the Pastoral epistles - more, perhaps than any other Biblical
>> writings - cannot reasonably be read as "God's words". They are personal
>> communications of advice from one man to a friend and couched in very
>> human terms.
>
> Well, lets look at what the orginal Greek, what the translation came from.
> 16. |3956| Every |1124| Scripture |9999| {is} |2315| God-breathed |2532|
> and |5624| profitable |4314| for |3809| teaching, |4314| for |1650|
> reproof, |4314| for |1882| correction, |4314| for |3809| instruction
> |1722| in |1343| righteousness,
> Strong's Ref. # 2315
> Romanized theopneustos
> Pronounced theh-op'-nyoo-stos
> from GSN2316 and a presumed derivative of GSN4154; divinely breathed in:
> KJV--given by inspiration of God.
>
> (Theol.) A supernatural divine influence on the prophets,
> apostles, or sacred writers, by which they were qualified
> to communicate moral or religious truth with authority; a
> supernatural influence which qualifies men to receive and
> communicate divine truth; also, the truth communicated.
> [1913 Webster]
>
> The point is the words as this passage says are gods. Where did this
> "sudden insight" come from? Drug influence? High fever? String tied around
> the finger? A "recognition of a pattern of events" is nothing more than
> seeing that it rains at 3:30 every day, that is not inspiration it is
> observation. "full-blown vision", again drug use? The implication is not
> that at all, the implication is that these are the words of god, you need
> to follow them. That is what is taught, chriatian organizations that
> differ on that are in the minority.
> Because they are gods word albeit transcribed by people, can be used
> for doctrine. Doctrine means a body of teachings, instructions. Can be
> used for correction meaning, to set straight on error. Can be used for
> "instruction in righteousness": ( instruction already defined )
> righteousness; implies that a person's actions are justified. Nothing
> taken out of context here, the implication is the bible is the word of
> god and is correct. If it is incorrect, it is fallible. If it is
> incorrect it can not be used for instruction, teaching and correction.
> The implication is then that the bible is infallible.
>
This is all nonsense, for Gods refer to ideals, absolutes, principles,
points of reference in regards to quality of behaviour. The gods you talk
about don't exist. See below
Pastor Frank
Adonis
"Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:f160e$482f3af5$d1d89aaa$20...@PRIMUS.CA...
below, besides OT or NT, concept what ever do not exist.
Pastor Frank
> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:f160e$482f3af5$d1d89aaa$20...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>
>> whatever is your standard of virtue and ideal of perfection against
>> which you measure all behaviour. (Jesus in Matthew. 5:48)
>> I.e. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Satan is: "...the god (theos)
>> of this world", i.e. reality, to which Atheists reference. And again in a
>> Philippians 3:19, Paul says there are people: "...whose God (theos) is
>> their
>> belly", i.e. gratification, pleasure, to which Hedonists reference. Also,
>> Jesus speaks of mammon being a god or devil, representing the greed for
>> possessions, money and power, to which most people reference. (Mt:6:24:)
>> Jesus tells us in Jn:4:24 that His "GOD IS A SPIRIT", (i.e. akin to a
>> quality of attitude, like love and care [1Jn 4:8,16] which imbues a
>> person
>> spirit and in truth."
>
> You are absolutely correct, the crap you post is nonsense. The gods above,
> below, besides OT or NT, concept what ever do not exist.
>
Are you sure you don't?
Pastor Frank
news:48461817...@netvigator.com...
> Andrew wrote:
>> On 2008-05-17 15:38:13 +0100, "Adonis" <zeroca...@msn.com> said:
>> >
>> > The bible is nothing more than a ancient version of the Hollywood
>> > movie remake, only this one was the money maker so the old ones were
>> > forgotten.
>>
>
> No I don't think so Andrew. I can see he has you by 'the
> short and curlies' !
>
After a while you will notice that atheists waste their entire lives
with listing ad nauseam all that is "nothing more, mere, only or just etc."
and never finding anything that is superlative and worthy of praise, if not
worship. What a depressing state of mind!!!
Adonis
the non belief in a god is so old it is nauseating, from my point of view I find
the continuation of the forced belief of a god on others is nauseating.
Pastor Frank
news:eJWdnXrIepsDDdfV...@comcast.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:7f640$48498249$d1d89a5b$73...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>
>> with listing ad nauseam all that is "nothing more, mere, only or just
>> etc." and never finding anything that is superlative and worthy of
>> praise, if not worship. What a depressing state of mind!!!
> If there is something worthy of praise, I'll praise it. Now if your
> feel that the non belief in a god is so old it is nauseating, from my
> point of view I find the continuation of the forced belief of a god on
> others is nauseating.
scripture.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> with listing ad nauseam all that is "nothing more, mere, only or just etc."
> and never finding anything that is superlative and worthy of praise, if not
> worship.
Got any proof that this is generally true? Or are you just pulling
accusations out of your feeble imagination?
monkfish
> In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> After a while you will notice that atheists waste their entire lives
>> with listing ad nauseam all that is "nothing more, mere, only or just
>> etc." and never finding anything that is superlative and worthy of
>> praise, if not worship.
>
> Got any proof that this is generally true? Or are you just pulling
> accusations out of your feeble imagination?
Ever been to alt.atheism?
--
monkfish
* The followup-to header is set to alt.christnet.theology.
** alt.atheism is removed from the groups header.
Adonis
it. At that point the book is worthless as reference.
Pastor Frank
news:PcWdnTQEP-VBYdPV...@comcast.com...
to go to science groups.
Adonis
Pastor Frank
news:7uWdnZpjl8YzpsvV...@comcast.com...
"idol" to you indeed, for you apparently have no use for perfection in any
form, for you only discuss errors, faults, mistakes and shortcomings.
Adonis
not even agree on what that perfection is? Just the concept of god is not agreed
on. What is written in the bible is not agreed on as to what should be looked at
in literal form or what is symbolic. It's not agreed on if the god of the OT is
the god of the NT. It's not agreed on if god is three beings in one or a family
of beings. It's not agreed on if the Christ dude is the one foretold in the OT.
Basically, the whole "Christian" community is confused, if not bickering at one
another on what is true or not. Yea some perfection. You are correct, I have no
use for what you call perfection.
Thom Madura
Perfection is also a word in the dictionary = Frank.
You really should look that one up.
As shown in your bible - your god is full of errors, faults, mistakes,
and shortcomings. At least one major shortcoming is that he cannot be
proven to exist. Hardly perfection at any level.
Pastor Frank
substantially more that IS agreed upon, but you have to be an atheist to
look for the few things which are not agreed upon, and disregard the
preponderance of agreement. The Bible is not the cut and dried user's manual
you are looking for because its purpose is to encourage thought and
reflection. Hence Jesus Christ is still the hot topic it always was, no
doubt to the great dismay of atheists. Are you an atheist?
Thom Madura
Your point is not made.
You ignore all the shortcomings of your god that your own religion
establishes in your religious writings - like the bible.
Time after time - you forget the horrendous deeds - the genocide - the
contradictions - and use ONLY the passages that you want to. That is a
hypocrite at the worst level.
If your god is perfect - then he is evil incarnate as well.
The worsening shortage of ministers and priests in virtually all
christian religions is proof that the message is waning - and the christ
is only a hot topic as a Myth - much like all the other mythologies -
that you have dismissed.
Theists have dismissed every religion and every god.
Christians have dismissed every christian religion.
This should dismay YOU - not atheists.
Adonis
Come now, like what? To see the vast different teachings all one has to do is a
simple web search, I have.
>but you have to be an atheist to look for the few things which are not agreed
>upon, and disregard the preponderance of agreement.
There is no preponderance of agreement.
> The Bible is not the cut and dried user's manual you are looking for because
> its purpose is to encourage thought and reflection.
I never looked at the bible as a user manual. If I had I would have become
atheist much longer ago.
bob young
Of course not - you have a closed mind. If your mind were
open you would see for yourself the
need for more than handmedowns from early simply people to
base a faith on.
You would see the countless contradictions in your bible
because it was written by different humans at different times
You would see a world of suffering that your loving god
cannot deal with
because it is simply a fabrication in the minds of fearful
insecure humans.
Then you would see the basis of atheism.
I
bob young
Then you do not need a god,
you can do all those things perfectly well without one,
just like those who reject gods do.
bob young
I am never dispayed at hot tpoics put around by theists.
Entertained perhaps, cause for a jolly laugh possiblty,
but dismayed - never ? Why would an atheist be dismayed by
a myth ?
bob young
Thom, you are excelling yourself again. Nice post.
Pastor Frank
news:mbudnaswwa5s5MDV...@earthlink.com...
>
> No.
No "real gods"? Are you sure? Do you know that for a fact, but won't
release the evidence till you are properly compensated for the copyrights?
LOL Btw I have a whole display cabinet full of existing and "real" gods, but
none will lift even one wooden finger for anyone. That's why they are all
for sale. Make me an offer!
bob young
FOAD
Pastor Frank
news:485ffeb6$0$11615$607e...@cv.net...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> More "shortcomings"? Thanks for proving my point. However there is
>> substantially more that IS agreed upon, but you have to be an atheist to
>> look for the few things which are not agreed upon, and disregard the
>> preponderance of agreement. The Bible is not the cut and dried user's
>> manual you are looking for because its purpose is to encourage thought
>> and reflection. Hence Jesus Christ is still the hot topic it always was,
>> no doubt to the great dismay of atheists. Are you an atheist?
>
> Your point is not made.
> You ignore all the shortcomings of your god that your own religion
> establishes in your religious writings - like the bible.
> Time after time - you forget the horrendous deeds - the genocide - the
> contradictions - and use ONLY the passages that you want to. That is a
> hypocrite at the worst level.
> If your god is perfect - then he is evil incarnate as well.
> The worsening shortage of ministers and priests in virtually all christian
> religions is proof that the message is waning - and the christ is only a
> hot topic as a Myth - much like all the other mythologies - that you have
> dismissed.
> Theists have dismissed every religion and every god.
> Christians have dismissed every christian religion.
> This should dismay YOU - not atheists.
>
people's religion. In your feeding frenzy you keep forgetting to tell us why
your religion is any better than ours. Our Christian "God is love" and last
I heard, atheists still love, ...just not to the death if need be, like
Christ did.
bob young
As told many times 'Emmett's final line is just for you......
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is
freedom. Atheism is human concern, and intellectual honesty
to a degree that the religious mind cannot begin to
understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact
it is not, and never has been, a religion at all. The
definition of Atheism is magnificent in its simplicity:
Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]