all this new age hype
Chorozon
After you have read this post if you feel it was directed at you then it
surely was meant to be.
The new age movement is nothing more than an attempt to sell more books and
cupid figurines. Our society is so thirsty for answers that most will
eagerly lap up a bowl of piss if you put a famous face on the bottle.
Why is our society so hungry? Is it because we are on the brink of a new
stage in human evolution? No, we are and have always been riding the tides
of change. Is it because the good old religious structures are beginning to
fail? No, the religious systems were never stable w/o strict enforcement by
a governing force to begin with. Is it because people are beginning to shed
dependency upon pre-canned truth? No, if you exchange one drug for another
you are still a junkie. Is it because the world is about to end? No, if
your sign says the world will end tomorrow you never need to make a new
sign; exploiting fear is the oldest trick in the book. Well, what is it
then? Why is this society so thirsty for answers and so willing to accept
any that are handed out?
PEOPLE ARE BECOMING INTELLECTUALLY LAZY IDIOTS.
Lets think for a minute, ok not too much, I know it hurts sometimes. The
reason people are willing to believe there are cat people from MU who know
how to save the world or that the great god YHVH really speaks through
Compania, is simply because they are stupid. The result of the new age
movement has been nothing more than a dulling of the minds of the masses.
You don't get bonus guru points for spending more money at Barnes and Noble.
What the great "authors / prophets / teachers" of the new age movement have
essentially done is to take the old wisdoms plagiarize them, add in a few
insane ideas of their own and BINGO now you are an authority. The lazy will
always prefer cliff notes and the stupid will always depend upon them. When
you make it easy and cute all the idiots come running in herds seeking the
answers on how to break away from the pack.
Ooo Ooo, I have an idea, if you write or teach on a 3rd grade level you can
reach more people and help them help make you rich. Just restate all that
complex hard to understand wisdom into gen-x lingo and your on the track.
"See Dude. See Dude meditate. Transcend Dude, transcend." Who wants to go
to all the trouble of researching the ancient sources anyway? Better yet,
let us hook them on the concept of self-improvement and sell books to not
only to the idiots, but the self-conscious dullards as well. Thus the "new"
age was born.
Perhaps there have been some who have really been helped by all this new age
rot, but who cares? I sure don't. I do not believe it is virtuous or
admirable to try and help / save / comfort anyone who needs it nor do I
believe everyone who claims they deserve help is in real need of it. No
three time looser outreach. Period.
All this interest in angels is more of the same. Have you been duped
lately?
Let the weak rot to fertilize the earth, free the stupid to harm themselves,
and let the cries of the lazy fall on deaf ears.
Chorozon
It is against Stupidity in every shape and form that we have to wage our
eternal battle. But how can we wonder at the want of sense on the part of
those who have had no advantages, when we see such plentiful absence of that
commodity on the part of those who have had all the advantages?
- William Booth -
David H. Ellison
reference are gone at last?
A most excellent post, direct and to the point, and I loved those final lines.
If I greet one more, "The Buddha said, "Christ consciousness is all there is,
man." So we should like help everyone. That's why I make these Jewish mandalas
with a fish on it." I'll be doing time for homocide.
Now where's part two?
Gregory L. Ford
But a very good post in any case. The death of thought, the reduction of
language to vague panaceas, the silly millenial froth--the intellectual
lassitude of it all should shock people, but no one knows better.
Like so much else, spirituality now comes in Reader's Digest Condensed
Editions.
--
G:L:F
Chorozon
<35AE4710...@mail.law.berkeley.edu>...
>You too can be a raving OTO trickster! (I know--presumptuous of me.)
The OTO reference makes raving and trickster a redundant use of words.
There you have just the opposite directive. Instead of making the rehash
easy to understand for the idiots, deliver it in a complex syntax and charge
dues in order to fool the intellectuals into believing it has enough merit
justifying the amount of study required to make sense of it. If you give
us even more money we will tell you what we really mean. The public sex
with sacred whores is also a plus.
If you want to get in touch with the old wisdom / ancient truths or
whichever buzzword fits, then go study the horse's mouth. If you are not
intelligent enough to understand what you find there then go take some adult
Ed classes.
You see, there have been stupid people for at least as long as history has
recorded things. Good enough reason to limit access to the goodies IMO.
The problem results when the layman confuses something of merit which he can
not understand with something totally worthless which he can understand.
Why the hell does everyone assume they were meant to have access to any
knowledge they choose? Don't take me wrong about the study of angels,
there is much to be found there but do be so stupid as to think you will
find it in a little pulp paperback with a golden crescent on its spine. Now
that people have instant access to vast amounts of information they feel as
if they should also have the right and access to understanding what they
find with as little effort required. Research does not replace learning.
Access does not imply Understanding. Understanding does not imply Wisdom.
Any Knowledge is useless w/o either. Anyone care to become and Anti-Guru?
Just in case you are sleepy buy your angel statues here.
http://www.europa-angels.com ] Put one on the dash of your car and your
friends of jesus club will be impressed.
Chorozon
My esoteric doctrine, is that if you entertain any doubt, it is safest to
take the unpopular side in the first instance. Transit from the unpopular,
is easy … but from the popular to the unpopular is so steep and rugged that
it is impossible to maintain it.
- Lord Melbourne -
Gregory L. Ford
the OTO is all about using mystical obfuscation to gull
intellectuals--what I meant to imply was that certain elements of your
initial posting smelled a little like OTO to me. Forgive my presumption.
Now don't get me wrong. I believe that most of the deepest spiritual
teachings, of whatever tradition, are far beyond the grasp of the
layman. You won't find a pocketbook version of Tsong Khapa's "Essence of
True Eloqunce" at the K-Mart, but you just might find something like
"The Jew in the Lotus," which though _nice_ completely reifies such
Buddhist concepts as 'sunyata (among other dreadful errors), and thus
misses the point in its rush to reassure everyone that we all can be
everything. We can't.
Now though we all can't be what christians (and I'm one of those, though
in many ways buddhistic) would call Doctors of the Faith, great
promlugators of the spiritual and intellectual tradition, there is a
spirituality of the every day that anyone can practice. It tends to get
lost in the levelling, but the gist of it is that anyone, in his daily
life and work, can strive toward a perfection of service and love--of
God, of neighbor, etc. The trouble is that we're all supposed to be able
to become Master Gurus and so forth--people lose sight of life in their
search for something big and impressive. It's spiritual acquisitiveness,
spiritual materialism.
Nice quotation from Lord Melbourne, by the way.
Best,
--
G:L:F
Chorozon
Blessed Frater G.'.L.'.H.'.
No problem at all.
Love is the Mall, Blah Blah Blah
Dolya
I see you as a kind of Faust character. I think you
have a few more jokes than Marlowe's doctor, but I think
you are grumpier than he is. You need a decent ivory
tower. If fact-hungry proles really got on your nerves,
then you would just unsign from the group.
You don't like the idea that naive young readers
can get a Penguin paperback on anything. I think the
damage is done. I saw the complete works of Crowley
on offer for 99p in Book Sale just yesterday.
Good wishes
Dolya
Skeleton Girls
& Angels of Death
Chorozon
Would you rather my posts to appear like the following?
> I see you as a kind of Faust character.
You are correct for using a Faustian filter to view the content of my posts.
>I think you have a few more jokes than Marlowe's doctor,
I have never heard a good joke from a doctor so I assume you are insulting
me. Please feel free to do so or not if you choose. I do not bruize from
ASCII.
>but I think you are grumpier than he is.
Grumpy was my favoirte dwarf.
>You need a decent ivory tower.
You incorectly assume I desire a tower, and speak highly to presume my own
needs for me. Very good. I am gaining respect for you.
>If fact-hungry proles really got on your nerves,
Yes, I do feel it should have been called the "plebeian" agenda based solely
on the people who really really really loved it. So I chose not to. Eeeeew
bias.
>then you would just unsign from the group.
Quite right.
>You don't like the idea that naive young readers
>can get a Penguin paperback on anything.
Yeah, that's it, keep children from books. Not my point, take some more
classes.
>I think the damage is done.
You are free to concive of "damage" as you will. What is not really final
in eternity?
>I saw the complete works of Crowley
Don't touch them or you'll get excomunicated.
>on offer for 99p in Book Sale just yesterday.
Is the cost of proportional to worth in your opinion? I don't know what 99
(pounds?) is worth on your island.
Blah Blah Blah and so on.
Love and cruchy goodness
Chorozon
Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death. If we
take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then
eternal life belongs to those who live in the present.
Ludwig Wittgenstein
David H. Ellison
Dolya
you really do feel strongly about the New Agers,
don't you?
You feel bitter because some people are making
money from selling books. Would you like to detail
some honest ways to make money?
Consuming excrement is the traditional way of
selling out to the Devil, and that's true whichever sign
of the Zodiac you belong to.
Would you like to recommend a society which
was not hungry?
Peace to you
Blessed be
Dolya
this newsgroup seems to attract
posters who like to claim that they are cleverer than
others or more spiritual than others. Can you tell me
what is so clever or what is so spiritual about making
these claims? Chrozon seems to feel it is a matter
of reading the right books. Do you think he would be
happier if he saw more people reading the same books
as him? I actually think he would dislike it. I think it is
a bit nesh (soft) to read a book about it rather than to
actually study at a lamasery for thirty years.
"While nature rests the wise chudz sleeps."
"Now listen,you 500 Greeks and 80 000 monks, this
king Milinda tells me that he has come on a chariot. But
when asked to explain to me what a chariot is, he cannot
establish its existence. How can one possibly approve
of that?"
All good wishes
Gregory L. Ford
You're right; there's nothing clever or spiritual about wanting to
appear clever and spiritual. Nothing at all.
Where I concur with Chorozon is in adherence to the fact that despite
all our democratic impulses and inclinations, there will always be
disparities between persons. In the most important respects we all are
equal; in many not unimportant respects we are far from it. My
particular difficulty is in determining how much weight to give the
latter sort. I know from experience that reading about time in a
lamasery does little to transform a person, compared to actually
spending time in one.
My argument with the new age is, in fact, precisely that: that you
cannot hope to have the same insights, the same realizations as the past
masters of spirituality, unless you put yourself through the same rigors
(of body, mind, speech, action, thought, etc.) as they did. To say this
is not the same as to pretend to spiritual accomplishment. I daresay
that if I were truly accomplished I'd keep altogether out of silly
conversations such as this. Really, is what is at stake here worth our
energies?
Now which sutra was that quotation from? Is the chariot the wheels, the
spokes of the wheels, the platform?--etc. Do you do much reading in
buddhism?
Best,
G:L:F
Chorozon
I take the time to ensure my posts are offensive and brash so the readers
who need to reject what I am really saying will be able to do so w/o much
effort. I also exaggerate and my statements are not always in alignment
with my opinions. I am harsh because I feel society has become too soft for
its own good.
> you really do feel strongly about the New Agers,
>don't you?
Yes, although not for the reasons my post will lead you to believe.
> You feel bitter because some people are making
>money from selling books. Would you like to detail
>some honest ways to make money?
No, I am disappointed our society is a place where people are so easily
duped.
Money is not the issue, just the motivation for a cause whose repercussions
are nowhere near being justified.
> Consuming excrement is the traditional way of
>selling out to the Devil, and that's true whichever sign
>of the Zodiac you belong to.
Where do you get your information? I only had to sign a pact.
> Would you like to recommend a society which
>was not hungry?
It is not the hunger which is the issue. It is the food being generated to
feed the hunger which I have a problem with.
Love and crunchy goodness
Chorozon
Raine
>
> Greetings from the thick darkness:
And to you from the mists:
>
> After you have read this post if you feel it was directed at you then it
> surely was meant to be.
>
> The new age movement is nothing more than an attempt to sell more books and
> cupid figurines. Our society is so thirsty for answers that most will
> eagerly lap up a bowl of piss if you put a famous face on the bottle.
>
> Why is our society so hungry? Is it because we are on the brink of a new
> stage in human evolution? No, we are and have always been riding the tides
> of change. Is it because the good old religious structures are beginning to
> fail? No, the religious systems were never stable w/o strict enforcement by
> a governing force to begin with. Is it because people are beginning to shed
> dependency upon pre-canned truth? No, if you exchange one drug for another
> you are still a junkie. Is it because the world is about to end? No, if
> your sign says the world will end tomorrow you never need to make a new
> sign; exploiting fear is the oldest trick in the book. Well, what is it
> then? Why is this society so thirsty for answers and so willing to accept
> any that are handed out?
>
> PEOPLE ARE BECOMING INTELLECTUALLY LAZY IDIOTS.
The proof is in the pudding. The New Age Movement is a preparedness
course for inevitable death. It doesn't point the way to tomorrow, it
draws a line in the sand. And it is easy. Just open a channel and
someone/thing will issue your orders through the tinfoil antenna or the
fillings in your teeth...BC. (Before Crest.)
The first person who comes near me with a ticket to the Pleiedes or
Orion gets ten whacks with my Filas.
Everything you said in your post is just as applicable to each and every
one-way religion under the sun, as well as to various and sundry
self-help traps that tell you how to get in but not how to get out.
Buy my Angel books. Buy my Angel earrings. Buy my Crescent Moon bangles
and baubles. Buy Nikes not Nukes. Send for your really cheap, personal,
astrological chart, (prepared just for you.) Call 1-900-TALK and speak
to "Gretchen" who really looks like your 90 year old granny. ETC.
A brain is a terrible thing to waste, but it's the *Rocky Horror Show*
when 26 people are trying to use the same one. That is 1/26th of 10% of
1 brain. You aren't talking stupid here, you are talking amoeba. At the
most, a parasite if they can manage to attach themselves to something.
I swear if I see the words *forever ago* more than the ten usual times a
month they show up, I will attempt angelicide.
>
> Chorozon
>
> It is against Stupidity in every shape and form that we have to wage our
> eternal battle. But how can we wonder at the want of sense on the part of
> those who have had no advantages, when we see such plentiful absence of that
> commodity on the part of those who have had all the advantages?
> - William Booth -
Hoo-Yah,
--
JhiaRaine
David H. Ellison
Cloistered in the darkness of her tiny cell, at far remove from the rest
of humankind, reveling in the prophecies and visions of the great old
wise ones; Dolya wrote:
> Dear Gregory,
> this newsgroup seems to attract
> posters who like to claim that they are cleverer than
> others or more spiritual than others.
Don't turn that question around, it would be suicide.
> Can you tell me
> what is so clever or what is so spiritual about making
> these claims? Chrozon seems to feel it is a matter
> of reading the right books. Do you think he would be
> happier if he saw more people reading the same books
> as him? I actually think he would dislike it. I think it is
> a bit nesh (soft) to read a book about it rather than to
> actually study at a lamasery for thirty years.
Not thirty years, but many. Where does your information on Lamaseries
and there like, come from?
I enjoyed the post, I've found a great many so called new agers' to be
severely high on hype and low on performance. Gregori chanted the
possibility of an OTO influence here, true or not, at least I've seen
some self discipline practiced by Magickers. Chrozo's possible
affiliations aside, the likelihood that he may even believe all that he
posts, he still made what I believe to be a very good observation about
the new age. It is irrelevant whether he is so inflicted or not.
Reading a book on exercise is not the same as exercise. How true about
the body, do you think that which is unborn, eternal, undying, changes
through years of psycho physical manipulation? How many people, for how
many reasons pursue knowledge of the self? In how many ways?
Quoting isn't it, nor drawing words on a page, where do you hear that it
is?
Would you or any one here call me a spiritual person? I doubt it, does
some old or new age construct of a layman have much to do with what is
not constructed?
Where did all these images come from? What do you think life is within
an order? Where did these ideas come from?
This posts comes from you Dolya, who says she prefers hypocrisy, how
much do you prefer, was this not enough, or too much? So, no truth.
Keep your sexual ambitions to yourself; do not express your human
nature.
I bet you believe all useful 'spiritual' realizations are some how
wrapped up in some kind of physical denial.
I am disgusted by the new age mimes, and their hypocrisy, but you have
said you prefer hypocrisy, and so you post on Chrozo's spiritual lack
(BFL), after how many years in a lamasery yourself. Your posts are often
very literary, what books do you read?
> "While nature rests the wise chudz sleeps."
>
> "Now listen,you 500 Greeks and 80 000 monks, this
> king Milinda tells me that he has come on a chariot. But
> when asked to explain to me what a chariot is, he cannot
> establish its existence. How can one possibly approve
> of that?"
A very good question.
> All good wishes
> Dolya
> Skeleton Girls
> & Angels of Death
Damn, I just love to wander around.
Sincerely,
David
The humble gargoyle."
"You've got no goddammed table!" Then I guess I'll sit on the floor and
read.
David H. Ellison
Gregory L. Ford wrote:
> Sorry, Chorozon--didn't make myself clear--I agree with you wholly that
> the OTO is all about using mystical obfuscation to gull
> intellectuals--what I meant to imply was that certain elements of your
> initial posting smelled a little like OTO to me. Forgive my presumption.
>
> Now don't get me wrong. I believe that most of the deepest spiritual
> teachings, of whatever tradition, are far beyond the grasp of the
> layman.
How elitist of you, and what category do you believe you fall into? If you
yourself do not grasp these deepest spiritual teachings, then you are not
really qualified to judge who may or may not. If, on the other hand you have
understood these deeper spiritual teaching; is this evaluation the best you
have to offer?
How funny, you think spiritual teachings have anything to do with spiritual
attainments? You could hear the dharma for a thousand years, or listen to
the sermons of christ in every christian church in america, and still not
find what you already have. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the zen
patriarchs; who tells you there is anything to grasp?
I know this game, the scripture game... I can play this one-upmanship, of
course I win nothing, but then again I lose nothing either. I also sat
meditation for twelve hours a day, long before I ever walked up the hill to
the abbey, or stepped inside of a monastery. I know this game too, I've
heard many with years more practice and experience than I shall ever have in
this lifetime, play this game. Do you think they are any closer or farther
away from what they seek?
> You won't find a pocketbook version of Tsong Khapa's "Essence of
> True Eloqunce" at the K-Mart, but you just might find something like
> "The Jew in the Lotus," which though _nice_ completely reifies such
> Buddhist concepts as 'sunyata (among other dreadful errors), and thus
> misses the point in its rush to reassure everyone that we all can be
> everything. We can't.
Oh, the book game. You won't find a lot of books at K-Mart, but they are
probably accessible through your local bookstore, or library. K-Mart is not
a book store... that deep spiritual revelation may just be the one that
brings someone 'closer' to their goal.
"The Jew in The Lotus" ? or is that "Locust"? I must've missed that one;
I've got the 'Kalachakra' in the original sanskrit (or is that
'Kalachandra'? I disremember.), want to borrow it when I'm done? You can't
find it at a grocery store, or a shoe store. What about "The Heartdrops of
the Dharmakaya." It gathers dust like so many others. The Zend Advesta was
fun, the Koran was plodding. I have multiple translations of various Vedic
hymns. Sorry, and alas, the Knowledge I received from the black Kahuna was
oral, but I could pass on his name to you.
I learn to do that dervish spin from a Sufi in N.Y., don't worry his
credentials were in order; he was approved by the Council of Joyous Dancing,
and Pilar Vilayat Inayat Khan, maybe you have heard of him? Sorry, I think I
lost the point here. NEVER MIND.
> Now though we all can't be what christians (and I'm one of those, though
> in many ways buddhistic) would call Doctors of the Faith, great
> promlugators of the spiritual and intellectual tradition, there is a
> spirituality of the every day that anyone can practice. It tends to get
> lost in the levelling, but the gist of it is that anyone, in his daily
> life and work, can strive toward a perfection of service and love--of
> God, of neighbor, etc.
I've encountered a great deal of this last, I think there is a difference
between something being lost, and someone not being able to find it.
> The trouble is that we're all supposed to be able
> to become Master Gurus and so forth--
This is like a Maha Guru, right? Do you know what the two syllables 'Gu' and
'Ru' mean?
There is an old Buddhist story (I've got a thousand of them, when I get ten
thousand I have more.) in which an old monk was crossing a stream, and he
dropped his begging bowl, only to see it break on the rocks and be washed
away. Quietly, he said "There goes my last Guru."
> people lose sight of life in their
> search for something big and impressive. It's spiritual acquisitiveness,
> spiritual materialism.
It's...... life.
>
>
> Nice quotation from Lord Melbourne, by the way.
Yes, very entertaining. Maybe you can enlighten us all with the teachings
and quotes of other dead and living people.
> Best,
> --
> G:L:F
Fall down... it's good practice.
Sincerely,
David
The distracted gargoyle. And the purpose of that was?
"You've got no goddammed table!" Yes, I know; but there is a deeper
spiritual teaching in here, that you laymen just can't grasp! Bulldokey.
Gregory L. Ford
>
> Sheesh, careful you don't run into yourself Gregory;
Hey David:
Sometimes it seems my whole life is a head-on collision of myself with
myself. How to hold 10,001 conflicting opinions at once? Better I
suppose to have none.
I know what Maha means. Gu ru I forget.
My only point, really, was precisely that you can't buy or read or quote
your way to any true awareness or accomplishment or anything but
frustration. Neither can we all (in _practice_) become as you say Maha
Gurus, especially if these are our means. I'm elitist not in any
complacency over my own (largely imagined) accomplishments, but in what
I consider the intellectually honest position that not everyone can be
everything.
But your point(s): taken. Thanks.
--
G:L:F
kurdtcat
Raine wrote in message <35B06622...@usaor.net>...
>Chorozon wrote:
>>
>> Greetings from the thick darkness:
>
>And to you from the mists:
and
>> cupid figurines. Our society is so thirsty for answers that most will
>> eagerly lap up a bowl of piss if you put a famous face on the bottle.
>>
Raine said:
>The proof is in the pudding. The New Age Movement is a preparedness
>course for inevitable death. It doesn't point the way to tomorrow, it
>draws a line in the sand. And it is easy. Just open a channel and
>someone/thing will issue your orders through the tinfoil antenna or the
>fillings in your teeth...BC. (Before Crest.)
>The first person who comes near me with a ticket to the Pleiedes or
>Orion gets ten whacks with my Filas.
>Everything you said in your post is just as applicable to each and every
>one-way religion under the sun, as well as to various and sundry
>self-help traps that tell you how to get in but not how to get out.
>Buy my Angel books. Buy my Angel earrings. Buy my Crescent Moon bangles
>and baubles. Buy Nikes not Nukes. Send for your really cheap, personal,
>astrological chart, (prepared just for you.) Call 1-900-TALK and speak
>to "Gretchen" who really looks like your 90 year old granny. ETC.
>A brain is a terrible thing to waste, but it's the *Rocky Horror Show*
>when 26 people are trying to use the same one. That is 1/26th of 10% of
>1 brain. You aren't talking stupid here, you are talking amoeba. At the
>most, a parasite if they can manage to attach themselves to something.
>I swear if I see the words *forever ago* more than the ten usual times a
>month they show up, I will attempt angelicide.
Well, here we have it folks. It is not the common man who buys into all
these gimmicks, he can't afford it. It's all he can do just to survive in
this society. We muddle through and watch as the "elite" of society buy
into all that you mention. We sit back on the side lines and try to
contemplate why we're here and what it is we're supposed to be doing. We
try to raise our children to be decent human beings and teach them that they
need to be dependent upon themselves. We tell them they can't depend on god
or government. Don't condemn everyone when you're talking "new age"...the
common man has enough trouble staying in one piece as he continues to
attempt to understand the "old" one.
In defense of the "little guy"...CAT
Raine
To which Cat, bless her heart, replied...
>
> Well, here we have it folks. It is not the common man who buys into all
> these gimmicks, he can't afford it. It's all he can do just to survive in
> this society. We muddle through and watch as the "elite" of society buy
> into all that you mention. We sit back on the side lines and try to
> contemplate why we're here and what it is we're supposed to be doing. We
> try to raise our children to be decent human beings and teach them that they
> need to be dependent upon themselves. We tell them they can't depend on god
> or government. Don't condemn everyone when you're talking "new age"...the
> common man has enough trouble staying in one piece as he continues to
> attempt to understand the "old" one.
>
> In defense of the "little guy"...CAT
In all sincerety, Cat..it IS the little guy that buys into most of this
stuff. They are the ones who buy the cheap jewelry, the absurd books
which they can't read, and by no means understand because it is mostly
gobbledegook anyway. That was Chorozon's point. The *elite* lead you
down the path of holy hell, and get rich doing it. Most people don't
take the time to try and find their roots any more than they take the
time to compare routes to spirituality between the trick and the treat.
As long as it is easy and they don't have to do anything to achieve it.
No responsibility for their inner selves. It is too often left to the
outer perimeters...those who call themselves leaders, and the rest who
are naught but followers. It ceases to matter what the truth really is.
Wish I had a penny for each time I have cajoled anyone to stop. Think.
Study. Use common sense. What is logical and what isn't when the
illogical is what is most acceptable to most people? It is the
intellectual laziness that stops you and the fear of learning truth that
allows most people to believe much and more of the lies they have been
taught nearly forever. Nothing drives me more up the wall than a
fanatical believer in anything because that person has stopped his own
evolution. The guy or gal that sold him the book for $29.95 + shipping
and handling is already busy trying to think up a new gimmick to get
your NEXT 29.95.
A small for instance: I tell you that there was never an actual person
named Jesus Christ. I tell you that the IDEA of that entity was a
composite and cite you history as proof. It doesn't matter. There will
always be someone who will say I am wrong, but they will cite the Bible
as proof and that makes no sense. I have explained it until I was blue
in the face...only to read down through all these posts and see that
Mark Earnest says Christianity is a lie, but Jesus will save you. I see
Gregory attempting to combine Eastern and Western religions that don't
fit in any timeline, but it *sounds* intelligent, so it must be true.
I say if you want to hold on to your rights and freedoms and share them
with others not as fortunate as you, you have to look around the world.
You have to understand what world leaders have in mind for you. You have
to understand the politics of the planet. And invariably, some *great
thinker* will ask what politics has to do with anything...like polluted
water, weather experiments, nuclear explosions that cause
earthquakes...etc. But you can be christian in Communist China as long
as you are a member of the Communist Party.
The stock market is cashing in now on the world's future starvation. And
they advertise it. But greed buys grain futures. What will they do when
there is no grain? The stock market is totally artificial and
superficial. It is numbers on a page, not in your pocket. But how many
will look around the world and see what has happened to other *strong*
markets when they weren't needed anymore?
When Bill Clinton leaves office, prepare to see the worst stock market
crash in the history of the world.
Then it will truly be a new age.
Smarten up, people. G-d doesn't print dollars. How many times do you
think you have left to buy into the lie?
--
JhiaRaine
As Ever
As Always
As Myself
Gregory L. Ford
Raine wrote:
<big ol' snip>
> A small for instance: I tell you that there was never an actual person
> named Jesus Christ. I tell you that the IDEA of that entity was a
> composite and cite you history as proof. It doesn't matter. There will
> always be someone who will say I am wrong, but they will cite the Bible
> as proof and that makes no sense. I have explained it until I was blue
> in the face...only to read down through all these posts and see that
> Mark Earnest says Christianity is a lie, but Jesus will save you. I see
> Gregory attempting to combine Eastern and Western religions that don't
> fit in any timeline, but it *sounds* intelligent, so it must be true.
What's that? Timeline? How do you mean? Do you mean: these things aren't connected
in a relationship of temporal casusation? Do you mean that they're atemporal? Do
you mean my clock's missing its cuckoo?
And even I, who pride myself on my small facility with words, know that the way
something sounds has little to do with its truth; that's just sophistry. If I have
made connections between Eastern and Western philosophy based on my own small
understanding, then my reasoning may or may not be valid; show it.
As for the historical existence of Jesus... I don't have the evidence onhand, but
it's ample. Same with Buddha, and Mohammed, and Socrates, etc. I guess I missed
your debunking; what evidence do you have? (Though it seems we all--and you,
too--pick and choose what we want from the glut of information in this world; you
could argue that Margaret Thatcher was really a man, for instance, or that the
world doesn't rotate or follow an orbit... but things either are or are not the
case--and that's that.)
<and yet another...bye bye text!>
--
G:L:F
Noorennisa
this is sent with a giggle. i think sometimes we take ourselves too seriously.
old cliche, i know. but just thought might be best to offer a little
comic/cosmic relief? :)
humor is always wonderful. maybe? :) noor
Gregory L. Ford
Noorennisa wrote:
I'm with you, noor, though a prime offender in the Serious Club. Know any good
jokes? I'm fresh out.
--
G:L:F
David H. Ellison
Showing more than a modicum of insight (hey, that's a pretty big compliment for
me!); Raine wrote:
<and I snipped and I clipped the rest; want to know what everyone else said? Go
back and read it>
> In all sincerety, Cat..it IS the little guy that buys into most of this
> stuff. They are the ones who buy the cheap jewelry, the absurd books
> which they can't read, and by no means understand because it is mostly
> gobbledegook anyway. That was Chorozon's point. The *elite* lead you
> down the path of holy hell, and get rich doing it.
Yes, I confess; I spent time at a new age book store my friend owned; the
clientele was mostly middle class; none of it, what you might call the 'haves'.
Why not? I'm sure we could come up with a number of equally valid reasons.
The workshops were always a great place to pick up on females wanting to exchange
energies; it was great. Meditation on Wednesdays were the same, because I could
sit in a full lotus (padmasana), it was assumed I had some spiritual insight....
it was great. Many people could tell me the proper time for me to 'meditate' based
on a variety of factors, few had every truly done it themselves.
They talked about books that related one spiritual tradition to another, or a
buddhist sutra to a biblical verse; or what various Hindu sutras actually meant.
None had read the dhammapada, or the Upanishads, or any Vedic texts, or even the
Bible. Few had been to church in years, and knew little or nothing about other
religious and 'spiritual' traditions. All this despite the dearth of information
available today. Instead they were content to read what some one else had to say.
I'm sure I could make a case for Yoga (Yoke, union) and religion (to bind) as
being similar enough that I could tie Hinduism and Christianity together: it's
been done; it is called Theosophy.
Semantics is an easy way to cull the pack and fleece the marks. And a lot of the
Perpetuators of workshops, were doing just that.
I heard a well respected Christian give a lecture when I lived in Hawaii, on the
dangers of Eastern 'cults' and beliefs. Before presenting his case he talked about
pop physics, science, and quantum theory. But he actually said very little. He
used a lot of buzz words, and nodded a lot. Looking around I noticed a lot of
people nodded with him. He had them agreeing before he had actually started his
lecture. A lecture which was just as bereft of facts, and yet netted him a tidy
sum in donations.
These were not rich people here, but to give them their due, and others; the new
age is an entertainment; empty of substance, but it makes you forget the boredom,
and tells you the comfortable lies of something for nothing, and instant
everything.
LOL, I've heard people on this ng say we are responsible for all of this on the
one hand, and nothing we can do about it on the other!
> earthquakes...etc. But you can be christian in Communist China as long
> as you are a member of the Communist Party.
> The stock market is cashing in now on the world's future starvation. And
> they advertise it. But greed buys grain futures. What will they do when
> there is no grain? The stock market is totally artificial and
> superficial. It is numbers on a page, not in your pocket. But how many
> will look around the world and see what has happened to other *strong*
> markets when they weren't needed anymore?
> When Bill Clinton leaves office, prepare to see the worst stock market
> crash in the history of the world.
> Then it will truly be a new age.
> Smarten up, people. G-d doesn't print dollars. How many times do you
> think you have left to buy into the lie?
Sorry, Raine; got to go buy a book on that one; "The Tiger that ate Bill Clinton,
And the Beginning of the New Age: How to Invest Nothing and Get Rich in The Hands
of G@D."
> --
> JhiaRaine
> As Ever
> As Always
> As Myself
Got to love that girl.
Sincerely,
David
A gargoyle for any age.
"You've got no goddammed table!" Then imagine I do, and it will be!!!
kurdtcat
Raine wrote in message <35B65EE1...@usaor.net>...
>In all sincerety, Cat..it IS the little guy that buys into most of this
>stuff. They are the ones who buy the cheap jewelry, the absurd books
>which they can't read, and by no means understand because it is mostly
>gobbledegook anyway. That was Chorozon's point. The *elite* lead you
>down the path of holy hell, and get rich doing it. Most people don't
>take the time to try and find their roots any more than they take the
>time to compare routes to spirituality between the trick and the treat.
>As long as it is easy and they don't have to do anything to achieve it.
>No responsibility for their inner selves. It is too often left to the
>outer perimeters...those who call themselves leaders, and the rest who
>are naught but followers. It ceases to matter what the truth really is.
With utmost respect Raine I must say, I work with a good many and am a part
of, the so called, little guy. Most of these people (mostly women) are just
doing the best they can attempting to raise children on their own and make
ends meet, they ask for nothing from the government or anyone else. They
are independent and do the absolute best they can with what they have. They
don't have the money for cheap jewelry and books they can't understand.
They are hard working people who care about others and do all within their
power to live decent lives while working for crumbs. The "elite" lead them
down a path alright, but it isn't one that costs them money, only their
health and sometimes their lives. They scrub the houses, iron the clothes
and clean the bathrooms of the "elite". They don't have time to read the
newspaper, much less "new age" books. You're right, they probably wouldn't
understand these books anyway but, they live the "goodness" many only talk
about.
>A small for instance: I tell you that there was never an actual person
>named Jesus Christ. I tell you that the IDEA of that entity was a
>composite and cite you history as proof. It doesn't matter. There will
>always be someone who will say I am wrong, but they will cite the Bible
>as proof and that makes no sense. I have explained it until I was blue
>in the face...only to read down through all these posts and see that
>Mark Earnest says Christianity is a lie, but Jesus will save you. I see
>Gregory attempting to combine Eastern and Western religions that don't
>fit in any timeline, but it *sounds* intelligent, so it must be true.
I don't think I need to go into my opinion of the bible or any other
religious teaching, I've probably made it clear by now. It's true, you can
talk until you're blue in the face and if someone, anyone, is not ready to
believe it then they won't believe it. People simply are what they are.
Perhaps we are all learning on different levels, I am for certain that we
all simply do what we feel is best. If there are those who choose to accept
jesus as some sort of savior, who am I to tell them they can't? Isn't it
how a person lives more than what their belief system is that matters?
>I say if you want to hold on to your rights and freedoms and share them
>with others not as fortunate as you, you have to look around the world.
>You have to understand what world leaders have in mind for you. You have
>to understand the politics of the planet. And invariably, some *great
>thinker* will ask what politics has to do with anything...like polluted
>water, weather experiments, nuclear explosions that cause
>earthquakes...etc. But you can be christian in Communist China as long
>as you are a member of the Communist Party.
>The stock market is cashing in now on the world's future starvation. And
>they advertise it. But greed buys grain futures. What will they do when
>there is no grain? The stock market is totally artificial and
>superficial. It is numbers on a page, not in your pocket. But how many
>will look around the world and see what has happened to other *strong*
>markets when they weren't needed anymore?
I agree with your statements above but the people I work with, as well as
myself, have no interest in the stock market, that is for the "elite", not
people like us. They just make their money on these people's backs. And
what are the little people to do to change any of the above? They have
children to care for, school clothes to buy, children whose stomachs are
empty part of the time because the money isn't there. They break their
backs for the elite and have little to show for it. BUT...these are true
people, regardless of their spiritual beliefs. They are the people who
would take you into their home and offer you what little they had if you
were in need. They are truly spiritual people regardless of their beliefs.
>When Bill Clinton leaves office, prepare to see the worst stock market
>crash in the history of the world.
>Then it will truly be a new age.
>Smarten up, people. G-d doesn't print dollars. How many times do you
>think you have left to buy into the lie?
If I recall, you asked in another post awhile ago why people seemed so eager
for the end of the world...I know some who are just plain tired. The
thought of not having to fight for every penny or scrap of bread sounds
pretty good to them. It's quite a struggle out here for some Raine but the
people I speak for are definitely kind, good human beings, they are just
quiet about it. They aren't the poor who complain about everything and wait
for government hand outs, they suffer silently and live their entire lives
just trying to be the best they know how to be.
Granted there is a section of society that buys into all the "new age" hype
but it isn't the "little guy"...at least not the little guys of which I
consider myself a part.
This computer has allowed me to speak with people I would have had no way of
speaking with without it. I am trying to take advantage because I am fully
aware it won't last forever. It will either be priced out of my range or
taken away in some other manner...I try to share what I am learning and will
continue to do so as long as humanly possible. Hopefully I am doing the
right thing. Forgive me for being so "mouthy" this evening, I just couldn't
help myself.
Respectfully, CAT
David H. Ellison
Gregory L. Ford wrote:
> Raine wrote:
>
> <big ol' snip>
>
> > A small for instance: I tell you that there was never an actual person
> > named Jesus Christ. I tell you that the IDEA of that entity was a
> > composite and cite you history as proof. It doesn't matter. There will
> > always be someone who will say I am wrong, but they will cite the Bible
> > as proof and that makes no sense. I have explained it until I was blue
> > in the face...only to read down through all these posts and see that
> > Mark Earnest says Christianity is a lie, but Jesus will save you. I see
> > Gregory attempting to combine Eastern and Western religions that don't
> > fit in any timeline, but it *sounds* intelligent, so it must be true.
>
> What's that? Timeline? How do you mean? Do you mean: these things aren't connected
> in a relationship of temporal casusation? Do you mean that they're atemporal? Do
> you mean my clock's missing its cuckoo?
Good Question; I don't think they are atemporal (I'd use achronological myself). Don't
know about your clock....
> And even I, who pride myself on my small facility with words, know that the way
> something sounds has little to do with its truth; that's just sophistry. If I have
> made connections between Eastern and Western philosophy based on my own small
> understanding, then my reasoning may or may not be valid; show it.
IMO, some eastern practices; and especially Buddhist beliefs can be utilized in other
religious traditions, though if you are coming from the other direction; that is a
religious doctrine that demands strict adherence to its rituals, rites, and practices;
I'm not your that is true; you must be compromising somewhere.
Buddhism has shown itself to be very flexible as it traveled out of India, it was even
incorporated into Japanese beliefs from India, China and Tibet and recombined again.
It subsumed Bon practices in Tibet, ancestor worship in Japan, and the Tao in China;
to mention just a few.
Christianity as a religious system however; has not shown itself to be quite as
flexible, it seems like the water of the word in this instance contains a lot of
rocks; with few outlawed and gray areas, such as Santeria, Christianity has
'overwhelmed' rather than combined, which of course, in no way invalidates your
practices... It's just an observation.
> As for the historical existence of Jesus... I don't have the evidence onhand, but
> it's ample. Same with Buddha, and Mohammed, and Socrates, etc.
Jesus was only referenced in the Bible, as far as I know. The 'Buddha' you are
referring to is Siddhartha (Family name) Gautama, a prince in India, who has
historical documentation aside from the sutras and legends; it is interesting that
these legends admit to being such, and do not claim to be historical fact; so that we
have both a historical account of Gautama's enlightenment, and the legend. Again
several books besides the Koran support Mohammed's existence. Socrates, Plato; I can
never remember who made up who?
> I guess I missed
> your debunking; what evidence do you have? (Though it seems we all--and you,
> too--pick and choose what we want from the glut of information in this world; you
> could argue that Margaret Thatcher was really a man, for instance, or that the
> world doesn't rotate or follow an orbit... but things either are or are not the
> case--and that's that.)
Try a copy of "Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches." By Marvin Harris for an anthropological
perspective on Jesus existence; it really is a fun book, and probably won't hurt at
all.
> <and yet another...bye bye text!>
>
> --
> G:L:F
Sincerely,
David
A gargoyle that could exist.
"You've got no goddammed table!" Show me where it says that!
Noorennisa
be offended by it.
noor
there is always a comedian in everyone. best we hide it if i offends others.
But if it does not offend others what a whirlwind of laughter one has to offer.
Noorennisa
what the old comes in with the new. Give a leap year or two. And the kids
they think they know everything. It bothers every generation. On both sides.
smile. to every kid there is a someday go figure it. and then us old
wisermisers smile that crooked kind of smile. Knowing full well that those
kids out there. they can figure things out on their own. But we feel in our
hearts that they can't.
noor
Jana
Yes, Noor, we seem to forget that we were once 'those kids' and
couldn't stand it when our parents put limits on us out of fear for
our safety or fear that we couldn't handle things on our own. I guess
it's hard to remember that sometimes when it comes to our own kids.
It, too, is hard to remember that these self same kids don't belong to
us, but are individuals. I once read in The Prophet something I'd
like to share:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot
visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent
forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends
you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow
that is stable.
Not much I can add to that.
Jana (O:
kurdtcat
Raine wrote in message <35B65EE1...@usaor.net>...
>You have to understand what world leaders have in mind for you. You have
>to understand the politics of the planet. And invariably, some *great
>thinker* will ask what politics has to do with anything...like polluted
>water, weather experiments, nuclear explosions that cause
>earthquakes...etc.
>The stock market is cashing in now on the world's future starvation. And
>they advertise it. But greed buys grain futures. What will they do when
>there is no grain? The stock market is totally artificial and
>superficial. It is numbers on a page, not in your pocket. But how many
>will look around the world and see what has happened to other *strong*
>markets when they weren't needed anymore?
>When Bill Clinton leaves office, prepare to see the worst stock market
>crash in the history of the world.
>Then it will truly be a new age.
>Smarten up, people. G-d doesn't print dollars. How many times do you
>think you have left to buy into the lie?
It's a different section of "little guys" you are talking about in this post
Raine than the one to which I belong ...they're the ones who will starve
first when the above begins, they're the ones beginning to go hungry now,
they are the ones considered expendable. Their dollar already won't buy all
the necessities in life (let's see, do we get food this week or pay the
utilities) so they've already started going without what most of America
considers essentials. They drive junker cars that break down every other
day and their clothes at yard sales. Nothing wrong with that, they'll be
more prepared for what's coming than the "little guys" you're speaking of.
People tend to forget, there are actually 4 different sections of people in
this country...not just the haves and have nots. (1) The truly
rich/powerful, (2) the upper/middle class, (3) the low-income lower middle
class earners/actual workers (this is the "low class" to which I belong),
and (4) the welfare recipients. No matter how hard #3 works nothing
changes. They fall between the cracks and are the forgotten. Me, well,
it's just about over for me anyway. One more year and I will have seen all
my children raised and I can say to hell with it all. Do I care what
governments do, no because they've never given a damn about me. Always
expendable...that's us. What no one seems to realize is that all the good
#3's are disappearing like the dinasours and, once that happens, this
country will be left with only 1, 2, and 4...won't that be fun? I hope you
don't consider this post "angry" because I'm certianly not angry. I think
it's called "just desserts"...I have watched in my lifetime as decent, hard
working people got the shaft time and time again...I've gotten it myself
numerous times. The government won't help us collect child support from
those "middle class" ex-fathers who decided they didn't want any part of
their families anymore but they still expect us to fund most of the
ridiculous programs they enact, through taxes, which are mostly smoke
screens and help few people. My "class" doesn't want hand outs, we don't
want anything from the government except that it do what we "pay" it to do
with our tax dollars and we can't even get that. Interesting, don't you
think? If I have a complaint it's that we've reached a phase in this
country where no one cares about anyone anymore. People have become
protective of "things" rather than their fellow man. That's why I care so
much about the people I "know", those hard working, single mothers/fathers
who DO work to take care of their families and get no support from anyone.
They don't ask for handouts, they've reached the point where they don't ask
for anything except to survive to see their children raised. The majority
of these people wouldn't take welfare even if they could get it, it's a
matter of pride and an old fashioned work ethic passed down for generations.
You're right about what you say above Raine, I do agree with you...we simply
disagree about who the "little guy" is. Perhaps it's all dependent upon our
perspective of "low" and where we're viewing this from.
I'd best get off my soap box, I'm sure big brother finds this very
interesting. At any rate, it's how I feel and one can't hide from that.
>smiles< to you Raine. CAT
Raine
>
> Raine wrote:
>
> <big ol' snip>
>
> > named Jesus Christ. I tell you that the IDEA of that entity was a
> > composite and cite you history as proof. It doesn't matter. There will
> > always be someone who will say I am wrong, but they will cite the Bible
> > as proof and that makes no sense. I have explained it until I was blue
> > in the face...only to read down through all these posts and see that
> > Mark Earnest says Christianity is a lie, but Jesus will save you. I see
> > Gregory attempting to combine Eastern and Western religions that don't
> > fit in any timeline, but it *sounds* intelligent, so it must be true.
>
> What's that? Timeline? How do you mean? Do you mean: these things aren't connected
> in a relationship of temporal casusation? Do you mean that they're atemporal? Do
> you mean my clock's missing its cuckoo?
Do you mean casual as occurring by chance or accident? Or Casuistry
which is the doctrine of resolving doubtful cases of conscience or
questions of right and wrong according to the injunctions of sacred or
righteous books, individual authority or social conventions, rather than
on the grounds of moral reason, or unequivocal reasoning, which we know
as sophistry? Or do you mean causation, cause and effect? Or did you
mean caustic which was not my intent to you, but rather an example of
how things get jiggered around to mean something they don't, depending
on how the individual mind perceives something.
Or do you skip a word and read a word when you read a post?
>
> And even I, who pride myself on my small facility with words, know that the way
> something sounds has little to do with its truth; that's just sophistry. If I have
> made connections between Eastern and Western philosophy based on my own small
> understanding, then my reasoning may or may not be valid; show it.
It is not up to me to prove your validity. It is up to you. I used
myself as an example of how impossible it is to MAKE someone believe
what they don't want to believe. Just as it is impossible to deny a
belief while preaching it.
Begging your pardon, sir, as you are a poster on this NG with all the
rest of us, do not be surprised that you might be mentioned just as
Dolya, Cat, Jana, Noor or anyone else who posts. You just happened to be
a good example of what I was attempting, without much luck, to explain
exactly what your reply implied. And I inferred, that you just didn't
get it. You had to defend the indefensible and something which really
needed no defense.
>
> As for the historical existence of Jesus... I don't have the evidence onhand, but
> it's ample.
Who says it is ample?
Same with Buddha, and Mohammed, and Socrates, etc. I guess I missed
> your debunking; what evidence do you have? (Though it seems we all--and you,
> too--pick and choose what we want from the glut of information in this world;
No, Gregory, I don't. And the Dejanews Archives are open to anyone who
cares to take a look. A rather large amount of history from many
perspectives. I have not put together ragtag pieces of hundreds of
religions and smacked everyone in the head with them.
you
> could argue that Margaret Thatcher was really a man, for instance,
Now what has any of this got to do with reality? I was speaking of
reality. But come to think of it, Margaret Thatcher was probably better
than a lot of males who think they're men.
or that the
> world doesn't rotate or follow an orbit... but things either are or are not the
> case--and that's that.)
Ah, Gregory,...which world and what orbit? Jupiter rotates opposite of
earth. Its orbit is much greater than ours. And that is only that.
>
> <and yet another...bye bye text!>
And yet another reply that cannot see the forest for the trees.
I say tomorrow can be better if you reckon with what is happening now,
and you prefer to see it as an end of the world epistle.
As you will. Instead of quoting lines from an extinct Broadway Birdie,
try using a bit more common sense when you see common sense.
Nothing in your reply to my post really hits on the point of the post,
but I do appreciate the response because you proved it. Thank you.
>
> --
> G:L:F
--
JhiaRaine
Escapee from the Jung Hordes...
Uh...the Fountain of Lourdes...
The Freudian Cords
The Corporate Boards
F150 Fords
But man, do I love fresh rainbow trout.
Raine
>
> Raine wrote in message <35B65EE1...@usaor.net>...
>
> >You have to understand what world leaders have in mind for you. You have
> >to understand the politics of the planet. And invariably, some *great
> >thinker* will ask what politics has to do with anything...like polluted
> >water, weather experiments, nuclear explosions that cause
> >earthquakes...etc.
> >they advertise it. But greed buys grain futures. What will they do when
> >there is no grain? The stock market is totally artificial and
> >superficial. It is numbers on a page, not in your pocket. But how many
> >will look around the world and see what has happened to other *strong*
> >markets when they weren't needed anymore?
> >When Bill Clinton leaves office, prepare to see the worst stock market
> >crash in the history of the world.
> >Then it will truly be a new age.
> >Smarten up, people. G-d doesn't print dollars. How many times do you
> >think you have left to buy into the lie?
>
> Raine than the one to which I belong ...they're the ones who will starve
> first when the above begins, they're the ones beginning to go hungry now,
> they are the ones considered expendable.
And it is precisely *they* who I am speaking of. It is the starvation of
the world cashed in on by the few who will eat...for awhile. And it is
the *little* guys who outnumber enmasse ALL of the *fearless* leaders in
the world.
Their dollar already won't buy all
> the necessities in life (let's see, do we get food this week or pay the
> utilities) so they've already started going without what most of America
> considers essentials.
And you think that just because they don't invest themselves in the
market, it won't affect them when things come tumbling down? Do you
understand what I am saying here?
Where have you been, Cat? These are the people who need to stop *taking
it* anymore. And if, by any stretch of the imagination, you don't think
that there are people in this world who aren't even considered in class
#6 or #5, let alone #4 or #3, then you might as well just go on and give
up. Because that is the end if it's people like *you* who just say the
hell with it and quit.
They drive junker cars that break down every other
> day and their clothes at yard sales. Nothing wrong with that, they'll be
> more prepared for what's coming than the "little guys" you're speaking of.
And just who do you think I'm speaking of? I haven't broken people down
into catagories and classes. You have. Do you think that just because
all you *little* guys work for minumum wage and have little or nothing
to show for it, someone won't spend ten bucks for Viagra? Do you think
that draft beer after a long, hard day doesn't taste like the nectar of
the gods but no one will spend a hard-earned quarter on it, and another,
and another?
> People tend to forget, there are actually 4 different sections of people in
> this country...not just the haves and have nots. (1) The truly
> rich/powerful, (2) the upper/middle class, (3) the low-income lower middle
> class earners/actual workers (this is the "low class" to which I belong),
> and (4) the welfare recipients. No matter how hard #3 works nothing
> changes. They fall between the cracks and are the forgotten. Me, well,
> it's just about over for me anyway. One more year and I will have seen all
> my children raised and I can say to hell with it all. Do I care what
> governments do, no because they've never given a damn about me.
Great attitude, Cat. The hell with it all and what about your childrens'
children and their childrens' children? You should care about what
governments do. Everyone should care. There are enough of you to control
governments...but not if you don't give a damn. If most of you don't
give a damn, then you should fall between the cracks. And if I sound
angry, it's because I am. What right do you have to say that now that
you've done your time, your debt is paid...see ya? If you all don't
stand for something, who is left to stand for anything?
And you don't know me, Cat. How dare you suggest that I look upon anyone
as *low*? Especially where class or economies are concerned? I apologize
if I am wrong, but this post is one of the most selfish I have read and
you are probably the last person I expected it from. Go figure.
Haven't you ever heard: Once I felt sorry for myself because I had no
shoes until I met a man who had no feet.
Well, Cat, I have met these people. Some have no feet, no arms, no legs,
no food, no clean water, no medicine...and they still try to live.
Because each day they can stay alive there is some small hope that they,
as a people, will survive. If they can survive, they can change things.
this is the hope of a world. Not just the hope of a #5, no matter what
someone else considers them. People. Human beings who would cut off
another limb to have the proverbial can of dogfood that all these
starving people here in America are rumored to be eating instead of
hamburgers and fries.
>
> I'd best get off my soap box, I'm sure big brother finds this very
> interesting. At any rate, it's how I feel and one can't hide from that.
I am truly sorry if this is how you really feel. Big Brother be damned.
I shout. And I take my chances.
>
> >smiles< to you Raine. CAT
Better mood to you, Cat.
--
JhiaRaine
Raine
after Raine Rained:
Put this puzzle together. It ain't that hard.
India has three or five, (depending on who you believe,) underground
nuclear explosions.
Two weeks later, Pakistan, right on the Afghan border, sets off three or
four more underground nuclear explosions. It is extremely mountainous
country. A couple of days later, Afghanistan has an earthquake that
kills hundreds.
Oh, gee. What an amazing coincidence. I'm so sure no one saw it coming
but me. Please! Blind acceptance means defeat.
>
> > earthquakes...etc. But you can be christian in Communist China as long
> > as you are a member of the Communist Party.
> > The stock market is cashing in now on the world's future starvation. And
> > they advertise it. But greed buys grain futures. What will they do when
> > there is no grain? The stock market is totally artificial and
> > superficial. It is numbers on a page, not in your pocket. But how many
> > will look around the world and see what has happened to other *strong*
> > markets when they weren't needed anymore?
> > When Bill Clinton leaves office, prepare to see the worst stock market
> > crash in the history of the world.
> > Then it will truly be a new age.
> > Smarten up, people. G-d doesn't print dollars. How many times do you
> > think you have left to buy into the lie?
>
> Sorry, Raine; got to go buy a book on that one; "The Tiger that ate Bill Clinton,
Her name was/is Monica. Don't buy the book. It sucks.
> And the Beginning of the New Age: How to Invest Nothing and Get Rich in The Hands
> of G@D."
That book has already been written. Something about my father's kingdom
having many mansions. The streets are paved with gold. Ummmm. I forget
the name. You read. Ummm. uh...
It'll come to me later...
>
> "You've got no goddammed table!" Then imagine I do, and it will be!!!
Aladdin's Refrain from 1,001 Arabian Nights: Hey, Jeanie! Get out of
that lamp. David can't see his table.
--
JhiaRaine
Thanks for *getting it*.
kurdtcat
Raine wrote in message <35B72BD6...@usaor.net>...
>And you think that just because they don't invest themselves in the
>market, it won't affect them when things come tumbling down? Do you
>understand what I am saying here?
Dearest Raine:
I know that the stock market affects me, those I work with and my children
and their children and their children's children. I know that my boss does
not care about any of his employees, only the bucks he makes that HE can
invest. What is it you would have me do? You think I wouldn't like to
scream (I've done it), you think I wouldn't like to start a revolution (I've
suggested it), you think I haven't told these people they don't have to be
treated like crap but, who listens? People are worried about surviving for
a day and the future means little to those I know. They view life through
their children...get them raised, get them raised! That is their goal and
has become mine. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know. You think I
haven't said to these people, it's time for us all to sit down and say "I'm
not taking it anymore"... they laugh at me, they think I'm funny.
>And you don't know me, Cat. How dare you suggest that I look upon anyone
>as *low*? Especially where class or economies are concerned? I apologize
>if I am wrong, but this post is one of the most selfish I have read and
>you are probably the last person I expected it from. Go figure.
>Haven't you ever heard: Once I felt sorry for myself because I had no
>shoes until I met a man who had no feet.
Of course I've heard it, have even said it to myself time and time again
when the chips were down and I saw no light at the end of the tunnel. I say
to myself over and over and over again...there are people worse off than
you. That's what's kept me going all these years, that's what made me keep
working and striving to get my children raised. I have attempted to make my
children better people than I am. Don't we teach best what we most need to
learn? I am tired Raine, very, very tired. If it is selfish to just want
to lie down and not worry about it anymore then I suppose I am selfish.
Tomorrow I may feel differently but, today I am just feeling "tired"...the
fight is going out of me. I have fought for years but don't see any change
in the status quo. Governments continue, worlds continue regardless of what
I do. You think this sounds selfish, well, so be it. You think I can keep
people from drinking that beer or buying viagra...what is it you would have
me do? I cannot save the world. I'm sure you've heard..."you can lead a
horse to water but you can't make him drink". Mere survival does not make
things better...all the masses of people (including myself) who do so don't
change a thing except to make all the doomsday prophesies come true.
Perhaps that is our purpose? How would I know?
CAT
Gregory L. Ford
Raine wrote:
> Gregory L. Ford wrote:
> >
> > Raine wrote:
> >
> > <big ol' snip>
> >
> > > A small for instance: I tell you that there was never an actual person
> > > named Jesus Christ. I tell you that the IDEA of that entity was a
> > > composite and cite you history as proof. It doesn't matter. There will
> > > always be someone who will say I am wrong, but they will cite the Bible
> > > as proof and that makes no sense. I have explained it until I was blue
> > > in the face...only to read down through all these posts and see that
> > > Mark Earnest says Christianity is a lie, but Jesus will save you. I see
> > > Gregory attempting to combine Eastern and Western religions that don't
> > > fit in any timeline, but it *sounds* intelligent, so it must be true.
> >
> And to point out the example, Gregory replied hypocritically:
How is this hypocritical? I was just being flippant. (Come to think of it, maybe that is
a little hypocritical, according to my convictions--but how would you know that?)
>
>
> > What's that? Timeline? How do you mean? Do you mean: these things aren't connected
> > in a relationship of temporal casusation? Do you mean that they're atemporal? Do
> > you mean my clock's missing its cuckoo?
>
> Do you mean casual as occurring by chance or accident? Or Casuistry
> which is the doctrine of resolving doubtful cases of conscience or
> questions of right and wrong according to the injunctions of sacred or
> righteous books, individual authority or social conventions, rather than
> on the grounds of moral reason, or unequivocal reasoning, which we know
> as sophistry? Or do you mean causation, cause and effect? Or did you
> mean caustic which was not my intent to you, but rather an example of
> how things get jiggered around to mean something they don't, depending
> on how the individual mind perceives something.
> Or do you skip a word and read a word when you read a post?
Oi gevalt. I honestly didn't understand what you meant. Guess I got flippant (and made a
typo to boot). What _did_ you mean by "fit in any timeline"? Once I understand that,
maybe I can actually make an intelligent response. Or maybe not...
> >
> > And even I, who pride myself on my small facility with words, know that the way
> > something sounds has little to do with its truth; that's just sophistry. If I have
> > made connections between Eastern and Western philosophy based on my own small
> > understanding, then my reasoning may or may not be valid; show it.
>
> It is not up to me to prove your validity.
You're confusing the issue; the validity or worth of any person is beyond even
ourselves. The validity of our statements is subject to proof and disproof. All I'm
saying is that it doesn't say much about whether or not someone's statments are true, if
you simply say (in not so many words), Oh, it's just sophistry.
> It is up to you.
My statements; yes. My person; well, in part. It sometimes occurs to me that what I may
be in truth the most valuable for is a part of me I hold in little regard.
> I used
> myself as an example of how impossible it is to MAKE someone believe
> what they don't want to believe. Just as it is impossible to deny a
> belief while preaching it.
> Begging your pardon, sir, as you are a poster on this NG with all the
> rest of us, do not be surprised that you might be mentioned just as
> Dolya, Cat, Jana, Noor or anyone else who posts.
Point taken.
> You just happened to be
> a good example of what I was attempting, without much luck, to explain
> exactly what your reply implied. And I inferred, that you just didn't
> get it. You had to defend the indefensible and something which really
> needed no defense.
Well, you're right there. I read your post as saying that was, in fact, your position.
Mea culpa. Boy, I feel dumb. So I understand the point of the whole paragraph now,
having gone back & reread it--but I still don't get the timeline bit, or understand what
you really meant by the "*sounds& intelligent" statement.
> >
> > As for the historical existence of Jesus... I don't have the evidence onhand, but
> > it's ample.
>
> Who says it is ample?
Since I don't have that information with me (all I remember was that at least one Roman
historian mentions Jesus), and now that I see that I was just flailing away at a
specter, I'll drop it.
>
>
> Same with Buddha, and Mohammed, and Socrates, etc. I guess I missed
> > your debunking; what evidence do you have? (Though it seems we all--and you,
> > too--pick and choose what we want from the glut of information in this world;
>
> No, Gregory, I don't. And the Dejanews Archives are open to anyone who
> cares to take a look. A rather large amount of history from many
> perspectives. I have not put together ragtag pieces of hundreds of
> religions and smacked everyone in the head with them.
>
>
These sentences don't seem to follow after one another. And who's smacking whom with
what?
> you
> > could argue that Margaret Thatcher was really a man, for instance,
>
> Now what has any of this got to do with reality? I was speaking of
> reality. But come to think of it, Margaret Thatcher was probably better
> than a lot of males who think they're men.
>
> or that the
> > world doesn't rotate or follow an orbit... but things either are or are not the
> > case--and that's that.)
>
> Ah, Gregory,...which world and what orbit?
C'mon. It's common usage. (I was thinking of the fixed earth people--they do exist!)
> Jupiter rotates opposite of
> earth. Its orbit is much greater than ours. And that is only that.
> >
> > <and yet another...bye bye text!>
>
> And yet another reply that cannot see the forest for the trees.
> I say tomorrow can be better if you reckon with what is happening now,
> and you prefer to see it as an end of the world epistle.
> As you will. Instead of quoting lines from an extinct Broadway Birdie,
> try using a bit more common sense when you see common sense.
> Nothing in your reply to my post really hits on the point of the post,
> but I do appreciate the response because you proved it. Thank you.
The point of the whole post is still a muddle to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Paragraph one: People take the easiest route without searching for truth, taking orders
from people who are probably no more enlightened than them, and thus putting an end to
their own spiritual development.
Paragraph two: People who subscribe to a belief system will take any nonsensical drivel
as an attack, and respond to something that doesn't make sense with something else that
doesn't make sense; thus they miss the larger picture, and are pulled even further
toward perdition as they waste their time in bickering.
Paragraphs three and four: We're heading for obvious doom but our abdication of
responsibility for ourselves has blinded us. (The Bill Clinton part confuses me some.)
Paragraph five: A new age of hope, or of despair?
Paragraph six: Think for yourself. We can't go on putting our trust in lies much
longer.
OK, now that I've done that... I'll disagree with you on all sorts of points, but since
in my hurriedness and lassitude I blew my chance to respond intelligently, I'll skip it.
Best,
G:L:F
David H. Ellison
David T. St. Albans-Pudelwitts
seem to becoming more so everyday. However their are two reasons for
ignorance. The first is that there is no one teaching the "stupid" anything
they need to know. This is a case of those in power keeping people ignorant
on purpose, so they are easier to lead and con. A LOT of new age clap-trap
is about taking power over those who are weaker. The second reason for
ignorance is fear. People are afraid and confused and they are being taken
advantage of. They are often so afraid and so ignorant that they will reach
out to someone who proclaims to know the Cat people of Mu. All cults are
based on promoting and breeding fear in their constituents in order to make
them more malleable. It is about power and greed. So in effect there are a
lot of very SMART people out there promoting and feeding off of ignorance.
They get richer while the dumb people get taken. Unfortunately this type of
behavior has leeched right into the system of government itself. So anyway,
taking the attitude that we should just let everything go to hell is a type
of ignorance as well. That's why we need to promote more open discussion and
most importantly: Do Not Fear and Question Authority! There is only one way
however to stop fear and apathy and that is to believe that there is some
sort of Truth about our selves and our consciousness which places us well
out of harms way. In other words the Immortal, Eternal soul, that which
guides and directs our conscious and unconscious paths. That would make US
all angels, for what is an angel but an Immortal, Eternal soul which has no
longer any need or desire to bind itself entirely to the physical? The
question is then, is there an "Us" beyond Us or a Me that is higher than
myself. If so, this being cannot be hurt, tormented, controlled or killed.
That means no man or woman would ever be my better. It would mean mankind's
machinations of greed and power and their fear and the ever growing loop it
weaves is all an illusion. My goal is to release all of my fear and my anger
at what people do to each other here on earth and reach for my higher self.
I've seen it, felt it and know it exists.
However I still agree with C. most new age nonsense is for the birds. That
doesn't mean this Angelic Space needs to be lambasted or put-down. Now does
it? I for one am glad I found it.
kurdtcat
David T. St. Albans-Pudelwitts wrote in message
<#ySTNW5t9GA.263@upnetnews05>...
>I believe you are both right and wrong. Yes, people are very ignorant. They
>seem to becoming more so everyday
there is no one teaching the "stupid" anything
>they need to know.
So in effect there are a
>lot of very SMART people out there promoting and feeding off of ignorance.
>They get richer while the dumb people get taken.
I don't believe I ever said anyone was ignorant or stupid, those are your
words, not mine.
So anyway,
>taking the attitude that we should just let everything go to hell is a type
>of ignorance as well. That's why we need to promote more open discussion
and
>most importantly: Do Not Fear and Question Authority!
I also never said "just let everything go to hell"...I said 'I AM
TIRED'...didn't realize that made one ignorant and stupid. If the shoe fits
I suppose I need to be putting it on though, huh? As far as open
discussion, well, open discussion of how I feel has usually netted me being
called stupid and ignorant and making everyone angry. So much for "airing
one's views"...
>However I still agree with C. most new age nonsense is for the birds.
If "C" refers to me, well, I also never said new age "nonsense" was for the
birds nor did I call it "nonsense"...I said the people I KNOW don't buy the
books, jewelry, etc., etc., etc.
> for one am glad I found it.
Welcome to the ng David T., I'm sure you'll at least find it to be different
than many other ngs. Good luck in your search for truth.
CAT
kurdtcat
David H. Ellison wrote in message <35B80799...@sprintmail.com>...
>So CAT, who do you think changes the world, and how?
>
kurdtcat
kurdtcat wrote in message <6pcdv5$k...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>I also never said "just let everything go to hell"...I said 'I AM
>TIRED'...didn't realize that made one ignorant and stupid. If the shoe
fits
>I suppose I need to be putting it on though, huh? As far as open
>discussion, well, open discussion of how I feel has usually netted me being
>called stupid and ignorant and making everyone angry. So much for "airing
>one's views"...
I forgot to add "selfish" to the above "names" list. I have been doing a lot
of selfish thinking lately. Truthfully though, I don't think anyone has
ever called me stupid/ignorant unless that's what you were doing. Maybe
David Ellison called me ignorant once or, at least, inferred it, can't
remember. It's okay, I don't mind. I can't be anything other than what I
am. Perhaps I'm a necessary evil? CAT
David H. Ellison
And I'd take ignorant any day over stupid, the two aren't interchangable. There
is a difference between not knowing, and being incapable of ever knowing... just
look at some of these posts.
Oh, and Cat; you know I don't like to do your thinking for you. I asked you the
question about change... need a hint?
kurdtcat
David H. Ellison wrote in message <35BAC1E8...@sprintmail.com>...
>Sorry Cat, if it was me I'd call you ignorant; I wouldn't imply I'd just
say it.
>And I'd take ignorant any day over stupid, the two aren't interchangable.
There
>is a difference between not knowing, and being incapable of ever knowing...
just
>look at some of these posts.
Thank you David for those kind words. I have always believed I was just a
part of the "mass" and, sure enough, everything is beginning to point to
that now. When the "all knowing" in this ng begin to tell me the same thing
then I know it simply HAS to be true. It's my pleasure to be an actual part
of the world, you know the old saying "a place for everything and everything
in it's place"... actually I think my step mother always said that about
housework but it still applies here.
Yep, I'm ignorant and/or stupid about many things but I'm not the one in
here who always resorts to name calling now am I? I'm not the one who
critsizes everyone elses beliefs as if I'm some kind of god now am I? Nah,
I'm just the "little guy" and actually don't mind it a bit. It must be very
difficult for people like you to have to deal with people like me David.
Wish I could help you there but there are just sooooooooooo many of us, how
frustrating for you.
>Oh, and Cat; you know I don't like to do your thinking for you. I asked you
the
>question about change... need a hint?
The question about change, hummmmm...let me think. Nope, sorry, I am just
too far below you to see it David. Let me think a little harder... I change
my clothes twice a day, I change my beds every Saturday, I change the oil in
my car every 6 months, ...those aren't the kind of changes you're talking
about though, are they?
I've noticed myself changing since I joined this ng (is that the CHANGE you
want me to tell you about) and not necessarily for the better. A post from
Mark the other day made me see something quite clearly, I had "lost touch
with my roots". (Thank you again for that Mark).
Well, since I don't want to let any more of my ignorance or stupidity show
I'm going to sign off this ng and leave you enlightened folks to yourselves.
It'll be good to get back with my fellow man and stop pretending. Really
stupid of me, huh? You just can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...
I've learned a lot while I've been here...there will always be those who
believe they know it all and those of us who don't seem to know squat! I
take it all in stride...I am what I am and that's all that I am...
Get someone else to save the world for you David, or better still...try
doing it yourself! I'm tired of doing the dirty work for the likes of
you...
Most respectfully yours,
CAT
David H. Ellison
occasional outsider.
David T. St. Albans-Pudelwitts wrote:
> I believe you are both right and wrong. Yes, people are very ignorant.
Raine
Perhaps he meant the Cat People of Mew....
Or the Cow People of Moo, home of Gateway Computers.
One just never knows.
David H. Ellison
together in the big book anyway. Mew? Moo?
Does a dog have Buddha nature? MU! (classic zen koan)
(Only his Angels know for sure)