> "Chris" <fournier.t...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3887C56D.7EFDC8D3@erols.com...
> | That is why I never joined AA. I was terrified of admitting to be
> powerless. I
> | accepted that I  might be so, but I wanted to make sure.

> Well, to work the steps ya kinda gotta be sure right?

> | I believe it is the
> | single most distructive behaviour at AA: you are powerless, powerless to
> help 85
> | percent of alcoholics, powerless to get rid of the addiction. At best, you
> are
> | able to substitute the meeting for the bar.

> NOt nescesarly. I know I just usually flame you, but this is worth
> discussing

> Current guesstimates are that AA has a much smaller success rate than 15%.
> But.. does that mean the program is useless? Humm, Not in my opinion, Same
> thing goes for NA, as far as I'm concerned, its cool that its there for the
> people who can bvenifit from it, myself included.

> About the disease, well truth is, I question the disease model myself. I do
> know that when I start getting loaded, it's near impossible to stop. I've
> also burried a few people my age whove relapsed, or never got clean. I'm 23.
> harsh way to die. just found out today that someone else I know died, not a
> friend, but a young woman from our area. Its sad. thats why powerlessness
> over the disease is taken to heart, it lets me know not to start using, and
> also what happens to people who dont believe that, or chose to ignore it.

> As far as substituting meetings for a bar, well, I disagree. I'll agree that
> many people do that, but thats not where recovery is @. In fact, I
> personnaly belive a meeting is where 12th step work is to be done. Not to
> shit out your lifes problems. Suport from other addicts, God, and the BT/BB
> while working the steps is the answer., then trying to help others is the
> followup.

> |
> | I don't mind being humble (if I can) but not powerless...
> |
> | The same goes with anonymous. Have you  ever heard of DA (Diabetics
> Anonymous)?
> | You are powerless to show the world that alcoholism is not something to be
> | ashamed of, because you are ashamed.

> Well, we can argue till were blue in the face, but the traditions are there
> for a reason, and specific events led to them. As far as anonimity is
> concerned, one of the ideas is "putting principles before personalities" in
> other words, listen to the message not the messenger. Another would be that
> its a God giuven program, so who could really represent it. And lasty,
> imagine anyone quasi famous, they come to get clean/sober, they do well for
> a while, they go on Oprah, and talk about being in AA/NA.. then they slip..
> Hell ya dont have to imagine, its happened..

> At the end of the day, all it does is tangle AA/NA with stuff it has no
> buisness in

> | Well, I'm not ashamed and apparently not
> | powerless (I do agree with one day at a time and a lot of other things you
> guys
> | do: but I do believe you need a wake up call. Your work is based on what 2
> great
> | guys did 50 years ago when nobody knew anything about the problem.

> Well, actually, there were about 140 people writing the original manuscript
> of the big book, Bill transcribed it, and yeah, he may have had an ego trip.
> But remember, up till that point, there really was no solution for that
> brand of alcoholic.

> The other thing to remember, and somethign that AA freely admits in the big
> book, is they have no monopoly on recovery/sobriety or spirituality. Just a
> blend that works for a specific type fo drunk. Hell, I know guys who used to
> coke up and drink in a way harsh way, but now just have a beer now and then
> or maybe smoke some dope. I'm told they have been doing this for almost 20
> years

> Again, AA/NA isnt for everyone, and I get pissed at people who try to say it
> is, BUt with membership the way it is,, and it having saved my life, I have
> to say it works for some. Me included. And that is whats important There are
> many other types of recovery programs.treatments/therapys.. And if they work
> for people I'm all for them.. If anyone ever finds an outright "cure" for
> addiction/alcoholism, I'll go buy a 40 and an ounce of grass.. lol
> |

> >Reese, have you ever considered that addiction and
> alcoholism are different
> >diseases?

> You apparently have no knowledge of the recent research
> which has proven that the same Dopamine receptors in the
> brain are involved in ALL addiction, including that of
> compulsive gambling.

> Never could understand why it is more fasionable to get
> drunk on champgane than on beer, or why one addict will
> try to tell another that it is more trendy to be a alave
> to cocaine than it is to some other drug.

> Addiction is addiction, period, be it to alcohol or some
> other drug....and YES  alcohol is a drug.  It is a
> sedative/hypnotic drug just as are tranquilizers and
> phenobarbital.

> Those who cannot understand the Big Book are folks who are
> incapable of committing the act of critical thinking and
> also folks who cannot understand abstract thought.
> It was written in code as epic sagas in the English
> language have been, namely Beowulf.  Eyes will slide over
> the phrases with large words in them until the meaning
> of those same words is made clear.

> Some minds just will not work hard at anything, including
> sobriety.

> Jane

> Not so! I was addicted the very first time I got High.

> >and if you want to have a few rare drinks after having been sober for a
> while, you can.

>  >The belief that you can drink again 'normally' will destroy you.

> Did I miss something here? Please think about what you just said.

>> Your emails sure keep me learning TOM -

>Again. I've never emailed you in my life..

>> Such recovery - I am in awe.

>Like a soudblaster awe64 and shit..sorry I upgraded to liveware..but you
>wouldnt get that now would you

> Dont be kidding yourself now. I'm sure you'll do something that deserves the
> woogie wave again
> |
> | Great answer! AA is not for me but I do agree that you help a lot of
> people. I
> | want to try and help the ones you can do nothing for. When someone goes to
> AA
> | and doesn't like it, does he just go back to the streets? Do you have
> other
> | alternatives? I would like to meet those people and see if I can help. Can
> you
> | help me do that?

> Well the first problem is I'm in MOntreal, and your God nows where.
> Secondly, I dont goto meetings..often anyhow

> But, there are RR (rational Recovery) and tons of other stuff, a quick
> search on the web would do the trick. there are even programs such as
> Moderation Management, but even they admit, is not for most. Do a little
> hunting on the web and usenet, I'm sure you'll find plenty.

> Now if you run some type of recovery program, advertising it here would be
> just as obnoxious as me going to alt.recovery.from12steps and bantering
> about NA/AA

>> >> Obsession with what? Compulsion to do what? NA is very much about
>> >> drugs.
>> >> Addiction is about drugs. That's a no-brainer dude.

>> >So what about gambling addicts?  Sex addicts?

>> Why the fuck would they come to Narcotics Anonymous, you fucking
>> moron? To stay celibate? How fucking stupid are you gonna get?

>> >NA may be about drugs (though I would argue that, pointing to the 1st Step)

>> Because you're a fucking idiot with the brains of a piece of smegma.

>> > but
>> >addiction is not.
>> >So much for your no-brainer...

>> You fucking idiot, you're in an NA newsgroup, what the fuck part of
>> 'context' don't you understand?
>> Fuck, you're an idiot. No, I take that back.
>> You're a vavoso. That's Spanish for a drooling fucking idiot.

>Gee dam, no need to get upset... you were the one who said (and I quote)
>>> Addiction is about drugs. That's a no-brainer dude.
>      ^^^^^^^

>Nothing about NA there.....

>talk about bitter......

>> Alcohol is a drug and alcoholism is addiction
>> to it. Again NA is about drugs.
>>  Addiction is about drugs. (In NA)

>So... does this include caffeine?  Nicotine? Sugar?
>Funny... I see nothing about "drugs" in Steps.....
>I work the Steps of NA to recover from the disease of addiction- not from
>the abuse of drugs.