AA/NA is *NOT* About Alcohol or Drugs

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

AA is *NOT* About Alcohol.
NA is *NOT* About Drugs.

12 Step programs are almost *ENTIRELY* about RELIGION!

It seems that this is hard to comprehend by those who are brainwashed by
12 Step cults, but it's not too hard for those on the outside to see.
Look at the 12 Steps. Only the FIRST step is about alcohol, or drugs,
or whatever other 12 step program there is. The remaining eleven steps
are about God and relgion, and Confessing your wrongs (sins).

Read the steps. They're all over the web, if you dont already know
them. AA/NA does not address the alcoholism/drugs, but rather they tell
you to quit drinking, and then they shove GOD (higher power) up your
ass, and HE is supposed to solve your alcohol/drug problems. Once you
get past the first step, AA comes to a dead end.

12 Step programs are just another way to suck people into religion.
They know that a person drunk on booze or on drugs is gullible, and easy
to trick. That's what they want. They want to sell (or force) their
religion on you. You could continue drinking or doing drugs for all
they care, as long as they can sucker you into their religion. Even the
U.S. court system agrees that AA is a religion.

If you need help with alcohol or drugs, by all mean GET IT. But dont
use AA or NA, or any other 12 step groups, unless you're willing to join
their cult religion. If religion is your thing, at least go to a
legitimate church that dont lie to you when it says "it's not a
religion", when that's really all it is. There's nothing wrong with
religion for those who find value in it, but accept it on your own, not
by trickery and lies. The best thing to do with 12 step groups is to
avoid them at all costs. And be sure to warn others who might get
sucked into their trap, and into their CULT.

Learn more, go to:
www.orange-papers.org

[Mike T.]

So if AA was all a out sucking you into a religion what and who exactly are
benefitting from that? It's not like anyone is getting rich or powerful,
people are free to come and go as they please, and no one takes roll to see
if you're coming to meetings. Attendance is purely voluntary, the coffee is
free, and you can still be drinking and be welcomed.

The bottom line is if you don't want we have you're free to find something
else.

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:20:01 +0000 (UTC), Mike T.
<into.act...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> avoid them at all costs. And be sure to warn others who might get
>> sucked into their trap, and into their CULT.
>>
>> Learn more, go to:
>> www.orange-papers.org
>
>So if AA was all a out sucking you into a religion what and who exactly are
>benefitting from that? It's not like anyone is getting rich or powerful,
>people are free to come and go as they please, and no one takes roll to see
>if you're coming to meetings. Attendance is purely voluntary, the coffee is
>free, and you can still be drinking and be welcomed.
>
>The bottom line is if you don't want we have you're free to find something
>else.

Any religion wants all the people they can get. It's just their game.
You're right, they usually dont get paid for it or gain power. They
want what they call "souls". In many ways, religion is strange.
Because most people want you to come to them for money, or power.
Whether it's the used car salesman, the politician, or anyone who can
make money from you, or get power as a result of your support or vote.

Religious people want your soul. Something that is not proven to even
exist. They cant spend it, they cant get power from it, yet they want
it. All religions are after that soul of yours and others, but some
want it worse than others. At least most normal religions dont use
trickery and deceit and lies to get you to join, like AA does. They're
just there. Some might offer a free meal, or free concert, or something
else to get people to come, but thats acceptable and when a person goes,
they know what they are getting into. But AA uses lies, and fraud,
which makes them evil right from the start. But that's the case with
most cults. AA is a religion, but it's also a cult. Most churches are
just a religion, and that is ok.

You're right, no one takes attendance records, but they know who comes
and who they can sucker in, and those who will never fulfill their
desire to get suckers to join the religion. AA is ALL about religion,
not about alcohol or drugs as in the case of NA. Their free coffee is
their idea of payment for their mental torture and brainwashing. But
then, it's really not free, since they do collect money. Since they
have the coffee, they have an excuse to not give refunds to those who
find their program worthless.....

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:20:01 +0000 (UTC), Mike T.
<into.act...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The bottom line is if you don't want we have you're free to find something
>else.

By the way, WHAT DO YOU HAVE?

Yea, I know, you're gonna say GOD!!!!
(which of course you can not prove).

[Socrates]

On 4/13/2013 7:09 PM, The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:

Religion has Satan, you have AA. Your mind seems stuck in a
contradiction of it's own making. Perhaps you are burdened with the
unrealized fantasy of blossoming into something heroic. Aren't we all?
<sigh>

Maybe you suffer a routine case of the "Ivan Ilyich syndrome." With
Ivan, Tolstoy turned /his/ fears loose on his creative instincts. He
may not have reached "heroic" but he /is/ in the ball park. Hard to
imagine that happening in your case considering how heedlessly you
invest your energy. The more constructive path in your case might be
therapy or time management courses.

In case you are not familiar with The Death of Ivan Ilych, it's a story
about a man struggling with an existential dilemma, the deathbed
reflections of an unremarkable life. Good luck.

[Mike T.]

What we have is a way for the REAL alcoholic to stop drinking -- most
times permanently.

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:05:33 +0000 (UTC), "Mike T."

<into.act...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:20:01 +0000 (UTC), Mike T.
>><into.act...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The bottom line is if you don't want we have you're free to find
>>>something else.
>>
>>By the way, WHAT DO YOU HAVE?
>>
>>Yea, I know, you're gonna say GOD!!!!
>>(which of course you can not prove).
>
>What we have is a way for the REAL alcoholic to stop drinking -- most
>times permanently.

So, you're saying that you can not stop drinking on your own? That sure
dont say much for personal strength or willpower. I'll go along with an
alcoholic possibly needing support and help in the beginning, which
could be a number of things, such as hospitalization, therapy,
medication, or any sort of support group, which could be AA or another.
But if you or any alcoholic cant get the inner strength to STAY sober
after the "getting past the DT phase", then that person has little or no
inner strength or willpower.

At the same time, I'll go along with having a "support network" to use
after the initial phase. That could be a lot of things, from a friend,
or "sponsor", to continued therapy, to support groups. I guess AA could
be that support group, if they stuck to the alcohol issues, but
unfortunately, they are more concerned with religion, and that allows
them to brainwash people into their religious cult, rather than focus on
the alcohol.

Then again, while I respect an alcoholic getting support, ALONG WITH
USING THEIR OWN WILLPOWER, there is a huge difference between getting
support and turning AA into another addiction, and making AA their whole
life. Unfortunately there are many in AA who have no life beyond AA.
Some wont even exist outside the doors of AA activities. Thus, they
stop the alcohol addiction and become addicted to AA. To me, that is
just as bad as their alcohol use was. (or drugs if we're talking about
NA).

[Mike T.]

When it comes to alcohol, the alcoholic has NO willpower. The problem
drinker very well might have that willpower to stop if a good enough reason
presents itself, but those of us who have crossed over a line don't have
the ability to stop drinking and stay stopped without help from outside of
ourselves.

[Socrates]

Who died and left you in charge of grading anyone on anything? Who
asked you to decide what constitutes a "life?" You seem to have
brainwashed yourself into believing what you think, what you "respect"
matters.

In a game where the only certainty is death and the quality of one's
life experience varies depending on one's belief system, religions
(plural) are here to stay and as always, (in all places), optional. On
any given day you can find the pews (or AA meetings) filled with a wide
variety of citizens. Regardless of their IQ's, if they are singing,
smiling, hugging, sharing, etc., they, at least, *have* a "life."

To borrow from Vonnegut, you are "like a person who has put on full
armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae."

[JoeRaisin]

On 4/14/2013 6:19 PM, The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:05:33 +0000 (UTC), "Mike T."
> <into.act...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:20:01 +0000 (UTC), Mike T.
>>> <into.act...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The bottom line is if you don't want we have you're free to find
>>>> something else.
>>>
>>> By the way, WHAT DO YOU HAVE?
>>>
>>> Yea, I know, you're gonna say GOD!!!!
>>> (which of course you can not prove).
>>
>> What we have is a way for the REAL alcoholic to stop drinking -- most
>> times permanently.
>
> So, you're saying that you can not stop drinking on your own? That sure
> dont say much for personal strength or willpower. I'll go along with an
> alcoholic possibly needing support and help in the beginning, which
> could be a number of things, such as hospitalization, therapy,
> medication, or any sort of support group, which could be AA or another.
> But if you or any alcoholic cant get the inner strength to STAY sober
> after the "getting past the DT phase", then that person has little or no
> inner strength or willpower.
>

Yeah... but you're the putz who came here bitching that aa wouldn't help
you learn to drink moderately.

So how would you know how difficult it is for an alcoholic to stop
drinking without some sort of support.

You don't. You have no idea what it's like for others and are so
totally self focused that in your mind, everyone in the world is just
like you.

You can drink moderately - good for you.

Why is someone who simply cannot understand an alcoholic obsessed with aa?

Never mind, you won't answer, you don't have an answer.

[Ted L.]

On 4/14/13 5:39 PM, Mike T. wrote:
> When it comes to alcohol, the alcoholic has NO willpower. The problem
> drinker very well might have that willpower to stop if a good enough reason
> presents itself, but those of us who have crossed over a line don't have
> the ability to stop drinking and stay stopped without help from outside of
> ourselves.

That's why I say I must not be a real alcoholic. I never tried to stop.

--
Ted L.

Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.

[Mike T.]

Ted L. wrote:

>On 4/14/13 5:39 PM, Mike T. wrote:
>>When it comes to alcohol, the alcoholic has NO willpower. The
>>problem drinker very well might have that willpower to stop if a
>>good enough reason presents itself, but those of us who have
>>crossed over a line don't have the ability to stop drinking and
>>stay stopped without help from outside of ourselves.
>
>That's why I say I must not be a real alcoholic. I never tried to
>stop.

That's okay, Ted. There are lots of people in AA who are not real
alcoholics but potentially problem drinkers. If you ever have real
doubts whether you are alcoholic there are ways to find out. Of course
you could try some controlled drinking and see whether you have the
ability to stop after two drinks on a consistent basis. If you can do
that then you are most likely in the class of tedw and ex.

A less dangerous method may be to go from the Doctor's Opinion through
Chapter Three and find all the descriptions of how an alcoholic thinks
and acts. If you can relate to the majority of those descriptions then
chances are you are alcoholic.

It's not unusual for someone with long term sobriety begin to doubt
whether they really ever were alcoholic. Having that doubt creep in
can lead to thoughts of having wasted one's time in AA for many years.
It's best to find out sooner than later if one truly has the illness of
alcoholism. However you may not want to do any of these things and
just continue down the road as you are, secure in the knowledge that
you have stopped drinking for good and saved yourself lots of money and
heartache.

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

BULLSHIT !!!!! That's what AA *WANTS* you to believe. Just more of
their brainwashing..... Not what is real. I've met quite a few people
who were once alcoholic, who just stopped on their own. Since I went to
AA, I can only say that it was not AA, but my own willpower that helped
me quit, and later on moderate. About the only useful thing I ever got
from AA was seeing I was not alone, and having some other newcomers to
talk to. Then again, my bigger problem was drugs. As I said before, I
substituted alcohol for drugs after quitting the drugs. I was damn near
dead several times. Aside from a little counseling about every 2 weeks,
I quit the drugs on my own. That addiction was very severe. After
becoming severely ill, and almost dead, I just quit. I looked at myself
and said "that's enough". I went thru weeks of torture being without
the drugs, but it was pure willpower that kept me going.

No one is completely powerless over alcohol, drugs, or anything else,
except death. Some people lack strength and willpower more than others,
but no one is 100% powerless. Powerlessness is what AA wants you to be.
Thats their first assault on a newcomer. That grants them the power to
continue the brainwashing. It's a common cult technique. Anyone who
believes that shit, will stick around for more brainwashing, the rest
will leave right away.

When it comes to AA helping an alcoholic, the ONLY step that has
anything to do with alcohol is the FIRST STEP. And that step is flawed
by the "powerless" statement. But for anyone to look at AA from a sane
point of view, it's quite apparent, the first step is the one that makes
the person dependent on the program, and the other 11 is where they suck
the person into the religion/cult. About the only words of all the
steps that mean anything about the alcoholism, are the words "that our
lives had become unmanageable" (in relation to the alcohol). With those
words I'll agree, and the same can nbe said for drugs, and very possibly
gambling (GA). I dont think I'd choose those words for smokers anon.
Smokers dont have an unmanagable life, just an addiction. But
particularly alcohol and drugs can and does make life unmanagable. But
NOT powerless, except for a few who just dont give a damn, or are so
fucking weak they cant stand on their own two feet.

Anyone who dont have the strength or willpower to quit on their own,
dont have much of anything going for them, and will likely fail at
everything in life.

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

If the 12 Steps were REALLY about alcoholism or drug addiction (AA/NA),
they would read as follows:
(However, the way they were written by Bill Wilson, is geared entirely
toward religion, not alcohol).


The 12 Steps (As they should be).

1. We admit that we are drinking alcohol in excess, and that our
drinking has made our lives unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that determination, hard work and willpower can
restore us to sobriety.

3. Made a decision to do whatever it takes to achieve sobriety.

4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of our drinking behavior, and
how it affects our life.

5. Admitted to ourselves, and to another human being that we desire to
quit drinking excessive amounts of alcohol, and intend to achieve
sobriety.

6. Are entirely ready and willing to seek professional or private help
if we are unable to take control of our drinking by ourselves.

7. Humbly ask others to help and support us in our struggle with
alcohol. Particularly those who are closest to us.

8. Make a list of all the destructive things our drinking has caused in
our life as well as other persons we have harmed, and became willing
face up to these issues and take action to resolve them.

9. Made peace with the people around us, particularly those who we
harmed as a result of our drinking. Knowing which people are owed an
apology, and which we best avoid for personal reasons.

10. Continued to repair whatever damage our drinking did to ourselves
and others, doing so one day at a time.

11. Sought through sobriety a rebirth of our life along with achievement
and a sense of fulfillment.

12. Having achieved sobriety and a sense of inner peace, as the result
of these steps, we try to carry this message to others with alcohol
related problems, and to help them if possible.


NOTE: For Narcotics Anonymous (NA).
These Steps will also work for Drug addiction, just substitute the word
"drugs" in place of "alcohol" and the word "using" in place of the word
"drinking".

[Mike T.]

Those sound like AAAA steps. Perfect for those who deny the existence
of God.

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

Hey, I dont exactly DENY the existance of God, as an agnostic, I
consider it possible that there is some sort of creator. But I dont
like pickles in my vanilla milkshake, nor do I care to have religion in
my recovery from alcohol program, particularly when the program is
almost entirely about religion.

If AA was based on THESE steps (above), I might still go at least
occasionally. Or at the very least favorably endorse the program, even
if I didn't actually go to meetings.

By the way, why the FOUR A's? I'm Curious what they stand for?

[Mike T.]

The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:

>By the way, why the FOUR A's? I'm Curious what they stand for?

Alchoholics Anonymous for Atheists and Agnostics

[The-Tru...@universal.com]

I kind of thought it might be something like that. I'd be happy to have
such a group. I bet even many people who DO believe in God as stated in
the bible, would welcome AA without all the God stuff.

[Socrates]

On 4/15/2013 7:27 AM, The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 "Mike T." wrote:
>
>> The-Tru...@universal.com wrote:
>>
>>> By the way, why the FOUR A's? I'm Curious what they stand for?
>>
>> Alchoholics Anonymous for Atheists and Agnostics
>
> I kind of thought it might be something like that. I'd be happy to have
> such a group.

And your participation in said group would mean that you are low on
"willpower" with "not much of anything going for you" a guy who will
"likely fail at everything in life," correct?

[JoeRaisin]

Nah... those are Pre-aa steps. Number 6 means, go to aa...