Just for Rich: Direct Quotes from the Spiritual Giant, Carl Jung
Ken
The following I've posted here before but it has probably been years.
I'm just waiting to hear from Rich what is wrong with me for posting
racist, anti-semitic, and misogynist comments from Jung when his last
post where he is in his normal cult member attack mode trying to
distract from the substance of my arguments against the Step
group/Oxford Group theology.
"This is an archetypal ( sorry to be using C. G.Jung - you probably rail
against this philosphy as well) phrase from you."
Sorry Rich. No need to rail against Jung. I always let Jung speak for
himself.
If you think someone who spouts racist, anti-semitic and misogynist
nonsense is wise beyond criticism, what can I say? The only thing I am
curious about is whether you will attempt to defend Jung first or will
simply launch into a personal attack against me and pretend Jung didn't
say the things he did.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/
====================================
The following is taken from a post on a private e-mail discussion list:
Below are quotes from some of the writings of Jung to which I will
refer. Unless otherwise stated, all quotes are from *The
Collected Works* Vol. 10, trans. R.F.C. Hull, Routledge, 2nd edn.
1970. References prefixed by § are to paragraph
numbers. Text in square brackets within quotes are my own comments.
Proponents of Jung often counterpose his view of women with of the
allegedly phallocentric Freud. The following is typical of
his actual (as opposed to his metaphysical) attitude: "women ... have
begun to take up masculine professions, to become active
in politics, to sit on committees etc., we can see that woman is in
the process of breaking with the purely feminine pattern of
unconsciousness and passivity, and has made a concession to masculine
psychology ... Certainly the courage and self-sacrifice
of such women is admirable ... But no-one can get around the fact
that by taking up a masculine profession, studying and
working like a man, woman is doing something not wholly in accord
with, if not directly injurious to, her feminine nature. She is
doing something that would scarcely be possible for a man to do,
unless he were a Chinese. Could he, for instance, be a
nursemaid or run a kindergarten? ... A man should live as a man and a
woman as a woman." 'Woman in Europe' (1927) §245
Jung spells out the nature of the alleged injury that a woman may do
to herself by working in a 'masculine profession': "She
develops a kind of rigid intellectuality based on so-called
principles, and backs them up with a whole host of arguments which
always just miss the point in the most irritating way, and always
injects a little something into the problem that is not really there.
Unconscious assumptions or opinions are the worst enemy of woman;
they can even grow into a positively demonic passion
that exasperates and disgusts men, and does the woman herself the
greatest injury by gradually smothering the charm and
meaning of her femininity ... such a development naturally ends in
profound psychological disunion, in short, in a psychosis" Ibid
§245
A sample of his racism is: "Even today, the European, however highly
developed, cannot live with impunity among the Negroes
of Africa; their psychology gets into him unnoticed and unconsciously
he becomes a Negro. There is no fighting against it. In
Africa there is a well-known technical expression for this: 'going
black'. It is no mere snobbery that the English should consider
anyone born in the colonies, even though the best blood may run in
his veins , 'slightly inferior'. There are facts to support this
view" Ibid §249
That this is not just a casual prejudice, but is at one with the Nazi
fetishisation of the Earth is shown in these two remarks: "Just
as, in the process of evolution, the mind has been moulded by earthly
conditions, so the same process repeats itself under our
eyes today. Imagine a large section of some European nation
transplanted to a strange soil and another climate. We can
confidently expect this human group to undergo certain psychic and
perhaps also physical changes .. even without the admixture
of foreign blood .. The greatest experiment in the transplantation of
a race in modern times was the colonisation of the North
American continent by a predominantly Germanic population ... Boas
has shown that anatomical changes begin already in the
second generation of immigrants, chiefly in the measurements of the
skull. [No reference is given to the work of Boas] " 'Mind
and Earth' (1927) § 93 - 4
".. the skull and pelvic measurements of all the European races begin
to indianize themselves in the second generation of
immigrants. That is the mystery of the American earth " 'The Role of
the Unconscious' (1918) §18
Some typical remarks on the nature of Jewishness, and its contrast
with the Aryan are:
"The layer of culture, this pleasing patina, must ... be quite
extraordinarily thin in comparison with powerfully developed layers
of the primitive psyche ... Christianity split the German barbarian
into an upper and a lower half .. as the Christian view of the
world loses its authority, the more menacingly will the 'blond beast'
be heard prowling about in its underground prison ... This
chthonic quality is found in dangerous concentration in the Germanic
peoples. The Jew has too little of this quality - where has
he his own earth underfoot? ... As a rule the Jew lives in amicable
relationship with the earth, but without feeling the power of
the chthonic ... this may explain the specific need of the Jew to
reduce everything to its material beginnings ... I can understand
very well that Freud's and Adler's reduction of everything psychic to
primitive sexual wishes and power-drives has something
about it that is beneficial and satisfying to the Jew, because it is
form of simplification ...But these specifically Jewish doctrines
are thoroughly unsatisfying to the Germanic mentality: we still have
a genuine barbarian in us who is not to be trifled with. " Ibid,
§16 -19
"The Jews have this peculiarity in common with women; being
physically weaker, they have to aim at the chinks in the armour
of their adversary ... The still youthful Germanic peoples are fully
capable of creating new cultural forms that still lie dormant in
the darkness of the unconscious of every individual - seeds bursting
with energy and capable of mighty expansion. The Jew,
who is something of a nomad, has never yet created a cultural form of
his own and as far as we can see never will ... It has
been a grave error .. to apply Jewish categories - which are not even
binding on all Jews - indiscriminately to Germanic and
Slavic Christendom. Because of this, the most precious secret of the
Germanic peoples - their creative and intuitive depth of
soul - has been explained as a morass of banal infantilism, while my
own warning voice has for decades been suspected of
anti-semitism. This suspicion emanated from Freud. He did not
understand the Germanic psyche any more than did his German
followers. Has the formidable phenomenon of National Socialism, on
which the whole world gazes with astonished eyes, taught
them better? Where was that unparalleled tension and energy while as
yet no National Socialism existed? Deep in the German
psyche, in a pit that is anything but a garbage-bin of unrealisable
infantile wishes and unresolved family resentments." 'The State
of Psychotherapy Today' (1934) §353 - 4
A typical response by one of his apologists to remarks like these is
the following by Aniella Jaffe: "After the fearful abyss of the
Nazi regime had become known, Jung revised his hopeful and expectant
attitude and was pitiless in his public criticism." 'C.G
Jung and National Socialism' in her *From the Life and Work of C.G.
Jung*, Hodder and Staughton, 1972, p87
What this 'pitiless' criticism amounted to can be seen from the
following:
"... one is at a loss to imagine how anything quite so monstrous ever
came to power. But we must not forget that we are judging
from today, from a knowledge of the events which led to the
catastrophe. Our judgement would certainly be very different had
our information stopped short at 1933 or 1934 [Who is the 'we' which
speaks here ?] At that time, in Germany as well as in
Italy, there were not a few things that appeared plausible and seemed
to speak in favour of the regime. An undeniable piece of
evidence in this respect was the disappearance of the unemployed, who
used to tramp the German highroads in their hundreds
of thousands [Jung, the great seer is remarkably incurious as to
where they disappeared to] And after the stagnation and decay
of the postwar years, the refreshing wind that blew throughout the
two countries was a tempting sign of hope .... It is just
conceivable that Hitler himself may have had good intentions at
first, and only succumbed to the use of the wrong means, or the
misuse of his means, in the course of his development." 'After the
Catastrophe', 1945 §420 It is worth noting that even the
language of this 'pitiless' criticism is complicit with that of the
NSDAP - 'stagnation and decay' were standard terms used in their
characterisation of the Weimar Republic.
Short accessible introductions to Jung's work are:
Frieda Fordham, *An Introduction to Jung's Psychology* (Penguin)
Anthony Storr, *Jung* (Fontana Modern Masters). Storr
has also edited *Jung: Selected Writings* (Fontana). A useful, but
ultimately respectful, recent biography is Ronald Hayman,
*A Life of Jung,* Bloomsbury 1999. My review of this can be found
here:
"http://www.libertarian.co.uk/l apubs/psycn/psycn013.pdf" Jung's
intellectual and personal involvement is set out by Jeffrey
Masson in his *Against Therapy*, Harper Collins, 1993.
Rich
Kenny,
What on earth is all this...
I'm just waiting to hear from Rich what is wrong with me for posting
> racist, anti-semitic, and misogynist comments from Jung when his last
> post where he is in his normal cult member attack mode trying to
> distract from the substance of my arguments against the Step
> group/Oxford Group theology.
Now you have decided apparently to quote the whole or part of a
comment you made to another person questioning you years ago! In your
normal modus operandi you decide to pick out only the parts of Jung
which suit your cause.
You have just confirmed finally you are a sad, deluded, nasty bigot.
You are as bad as those in AA who completely against the norm spout
amateur claptrap to any body who will listen - and just as potentially
dangerous. One day you may well go too far if you are not careful.
What may be a concern is the useless "advice" you spew out to any body
who is daft enough to listen - sadly they are normally at a vulnerable
time in there lives.
Rich
Ken
First, you have a reading comprehension problem. Yes, I posted the
above elsewhere before but I did not write it. Aside from a few words
written by someone else, the bulk of what was written, the praise of the
Nazis, the racism, the sexism, that was all Carl Jung.
Do you think if I was to post statements of Hitler I should look for
where he said nice things because to say things coming from the core of
his philosophy, ideology would be just "suiting my case"? You've got to
be kidding.
> You have just confirmed finally you are a sad, deluded, nasty bigot.
>
Yes. I am totally lacking in tolerance for racists, misogynists,
antisemitic and the like. If that is what being a bigot is, then I have
to say that yes, I'm a bigot. I don't like Nazis. I don't like
racists, I don't like misogynists, I don't like antisemitic. Shame on
me. I should pay heed to your defense of the man. Not!
> You are as bad as those in AA who completely against the norm spout
> amateur claptrap to any body who will listen - and just as potentially
> dangerous. One day you may well go too far if you are not careful.
>
To far? Where is "too far" in criticizing someone who used phrenology as
part of one of his racist arguments? Just because you depend on his
sick, twisted thinking to support your world view doesn't mean I can't
roundly criticize the likes of Jung.
> What may be a concern is the useless "advice" you spew out to any body
> who is daft enough to listen - sadly they are normally at a vulnerable
> time in there lives.
>
Yes. I spew out daft advice by being critical of a racist, misogynist,
antisemites like Jung instead of seeing some sort of bizarre wisdom
founded in ignoring actual logic and ignoring the harm that Jung and
National Socialism caused in favor of the "spiritual" means that Jung
came to his sick conclusions. It might prevent others from
understanding the "wisdom" of Jung's hateful beliefs and might prevent
him from adopting your Jungian viewx, I suppose.
You can argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin if
you wish. You can hold Jung's racist, misogynist, antisemitic views and
his "spiritual" way of reaching them however you like. That does not
make Jung someone worthy of credence. That is, of course, unless you
too are just like those adoring faces cheering when the fuhrer would
come to town.
That is you. Not me.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/
> Rich
>
Mr. Snuffleupagus
Jung wasn't an anti-semite or a nazi sympathizers. All the ones that
appear to be anti-semtic are directed at Freud. Him and Freud were
trash talking about each other. Unfortunately for Jung, he made his
comments at a bad time.
Kenny, can you at least put these quotes in their proper context.
Aniella Jaffe was one of Jung's close friends rather than an
apologist. Kenny, remember to put quotes into their proper context. I
understand this may be a hard proposition to ask of you, but please
try.
Ken
Here you go again, pulling an argument out of your ass.
> Jung wasn't an anti-semite or a nazi sympathizers. All the ones that
> appear to be anti-semtic are directed at Freud. Him and Freud were
> trash talking about each other. Unfortunately for Jung, he made his
> comments at a bad time.
>
What am I to believe about you, saying it is Freud's fault that Jung
said things like:
> Kenny, can you at least put these quotes in their proper context.
>
Yes, you seem to have done so. Jung said terrible things about the Jews
but it was a Jew's fault. Whose fault was it that he really believed in
phrenology? And whose fault was it that he said terrible things to
justify is scorn and contempt for blacks, native Americans, the
Chinese, and women? Was that the Jew's fault? Did Freud make him say
those things?
> Aniella Jaffe was one of Jung's close friends rather than an
> apologist.
And what is this sentence directly above supposed to mean? Do you have
special definitions for "apologist" that the rest of the world doesn't
have?
*apologist:* one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something
> Kenny, remember to put quotes into their proper context.
> I
> understand this may be a hard proposition to ask of you, but please
> try.
>
There is no context in which the person who says such things can still
be held up as an authority on human nature and "balance" and "harmony".
Do you think the cites above are the only things he has ever said?
And why are you so desperately attempting to defend Jung? Because he
wrote a letter to Wilson decades ago?
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/