Catholic Church & Nazi War Criminals
alber...@hotmail.co.uk
high ranking officials to leave europe for South America, but I never
expected them to be helping such murderes as Eichmann.
Though the church teaches forgiveness, it only teaches it where the
person has truly repented and has attempted to atone, this was clearly
not the case with Eichmann who always tried to lie and defend the
murders he comitted.
So I was quite shocked today to see the red cross passport issued to
Eichmann which was obtained for him by the Church. Yet even today the
Church denies any involvement, despite this clear evidence.
I am shocked and disgusted.
Patrick
+ You should be.
+ And I am disgusted by your silly accusations.
Alan Ferris
DOH! Barker, do a quick Google and you will find his accusations are
based on facts....DOH! You do enjoy looking stupid.
Eichmann's passport issued by the Red Cross with Catholic church help
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2007/05/eichmanns-passport-issued-by-red-cross.html
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
toxica...@thevatican.com
On 31-May-2007, Alan Ferris <al...@ddandd.com> wrote:
> >> I know that have been many accusations that the church supported many
> >> high ranking officials to leave europe for South America, but I never
> >> expected them to be helping such murderes as Eichmann.
> >>
> >> Though the church teaches forgiveness, it only teaches it where the
> >> person has truly repented and has attempted to atone, this was clearly
> >> not the case with Eichmann who always tried to lie and defend the
> >> murders he comitted.
> >>
> >> So I was quite shocked today to see the red cross passport issued to
> >> Eichmann which was obtained for him by the Church. Yet even today the
> >> Church denies any involvement, despite this clear evidence.
> >>
> >> I am shocked and disgusted.
> >
> >+ You should be.
> >+ And I am disgusted by your silly accusations.
>
> DOH! Barker, do a quick Google and you will find his accusations are
> based on facts....DOH! You do enjoy looking stupid.
>
> Eichmann's passport issued by the Red Cross with Catholic church help
> http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2007/05/eichmanns-passport-issued-by-red-cross.html
It is common knowledge that the Vatican played a part in the "ratline" used
by Nazis to escape after the war and was an active part of Odessa. The
church and fascism fit together like a hand in a glove. IT is no accident
that Franco's fascist Spain and Mussolini's fascist Italy were Catholic
countries, not to mention all the central and south American countries that
have had totalitarian/fascist regimes in which the church thrived. Patshit
is as usual, uninformed and completly fucking wrong. Must be he can't afford
the History Channel on his TV subscription. Whattadumfuk.
TA
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
alber...@hotmail.co.uk
> On 31-May-2007, Alan Ferris <a...@ddandd.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >> I know that have been many accusations that the church supported many
> > >> high ranking officials to leave europe for South America, but I never
> > >> expected them to be helping such murderes as Eichmann.
>
> > >> Though the church teaches forgiveness, it only teaches it where the
> > >> person has truly repented and has attempted to atone, this was clearly
> > >> not the case with Eichmann who always tried to lie and defend the
> > >> murders he comitted.
>
> > >> So I was quite shocked today to see the red cross passport issued to
> > >> Eichmann which was obtained for him by the Church. Yet even today the
> > >> Church denies any involvement, despite this clear evidence.
>
> > >> I am shocked and disgusted.
>
> > >+ You should be.
> > >+ And I am disgusted by your silly accusations.
>
> > DOH! Barker, do a quick Google and you will find his accusations are
> > based on facts....DOH! You do enjoy looking stupid.
>
> > Eichmann's passport issued by the Red Cross with Catholic church help
>
> It is common knowledge that the Vatican played a part in the "ratline" used
> by Nazis to escape after the war and was an active part of Odessa. The
> church and fascism fit together like a hand in a glove. IT is no accident
> that Franco's fascist Spain and Mussolini's fascist Italy were Catholic
> countries, not to mention all the central and south American countries that
> have had totalitarian/fascist regimes in which the church thrived. Patshit
> is as usual, uninformed and completly fucking wrong. Must be he can't afford
> the History Channel on his TV subscription. Whattadumfuk.
>
> TA
>
> --
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have come to the conclusion that Mr Barker is not Catholic. Nobody
can be this ignorant of their faith. Surely he is simply trying to
make Catholicism look bad so as to keep people from returning to the
faith. It is common on the catholic boards to find Baptists like
Barker trying to make Catholicism look bad.
Patrick
> It is common knowledge that the Vatican played a part in the "ratline" used
> by Nazis to escape after the war and was an active part of Odessa.
+ Common knowledge shared by catholic bashers.
+ Do you care to share any proof?
Patrick
> On 1 Jun, 01:16, toxicaven...@thevatican.com wrote:
> > > >> So I was quite shocked today to see the red cross passport issued to
> > > >> Eichmann which was obtained for him by the Church. Yet even today the
> > > >> Church denies any involvement, despite this clear evidence.
>
> > > >+ You should be.
> > > >+ And I am disgusted by your silly accusations.
> I have come to the conclusion that Mr Barker is not Catholic.
+ Just because you want to look for and find
catholic bashing back for 2000 years, this does not
mean that I have to accept it as fact.
+ The RCC has a billion members and 2000 years of
history. Each one of those billion members have sinned.
Every single one of them.
+ If you want to look for any find the termites in a building, go for
it.
+ I prefer to enjoy the beauty of the architecture, the style,
the art within it. You look for the ugliness. You see a glass half
empty. You want to delve into the bad. You are the pessimist here.
You live in the past.
+ I will pray for you.
+ While I live in the present.
AMBAN
says...
>
>On Jun 1, 5:56 am, albertde...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>> On 1 Jun, 01:16, toxicaven...@thevatican.com wrote:
>
>> > > >> So I was quite shocked today to see the red cross passport issued to
>> > > >> Eichmann which was obtained for him by the Church. Yet even today the
>> > > >> Church denies any involvement, despite this clear evidence.
>>
>> > > >+ You should be.
>> > > >+ And I am disgusted by your silly accusations.
>
>> I have come to the conclusion that Mr Barker is not Catholic.
>
>+ Just because you want to look for and find
>catholic bashing back for 2000 years, this does not
>mean that I have to accept it as fact.
>
>+ The RCC has a billion members and 2000 years of
>history. Each one of those billion members have sinned.
> Every single one of them.
>
>+ If you want to look for any find the termites in a building, go for
>it.
>+ I prefer to enjoy the beauty of the architecture, the style,
>the art within it.
And just as with the church not being vigilant the twisted desecrators destroy
the structure from within and without the knowledge of those who do not want to
see. I had every house I purchased tested for termites. I wasn't a fool.
AMBAN
sixtus
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1180725615....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
<Snip>
> + I will pray for you.
> + While I live in the present.
Prayer is a bunch of empty words that make impotent little twits like you
feel good about themselves.
--
--
Sixtus
I get to sin, get to fess up, get to forget about
it and move on with my life. (Poo Barker; 11-9-2006)
My source is:
http://www.bible.ca/catholic.htm (Poo Barker, 3-23-07)
From a priest's point of view, you have done harm, not good. You have
practiced vice, rather than virtue.
From a Catholic perspective, Patrick, what you do here is sinful. (Father
Rob Dye; Jan. 25, 2005)
>
Patrick
>, Patrick says...
>
> >> I have come to the conclusion that Mr Barker is not Catholic.
>
> >+ Just because you want to look for and find
> >catholic bashing back for 2000 years, this does not
> >mean that I have to accept it as fact.
>
> >+ The RCC has a billion members and 2000 years of
> >history. Each one of those billion members have sinned.
> > Every single one of them.
>
> >+ If you want to look for any find the termites in a building, go for
> >it.
> >+ I prefer to enjoy the beauty of the architecture, the style,
> >the art within it.
>
> And just as with the church not being vigilant the twisted desecrators destroy
> the structure from within and without the knowledge of those who do not want to
> see. I had every house I purchased tested for termites. I wasn't a fool.
+ How about the house you grew up in with your parents?
+ How old were you when you demanded a termite inspection?
Patrick
> Prayer is a bunch of empty words that make impotent little twits like you
> feel good about themselves.
+ Was that your prayer to me?
+ Do you feel better now?
Jaguar
Patrick wrote:
She did not purchase that house patrick.
Patrick, do you ever worry that maybe the Church's self-percieved popularity is a
myth?
Why did Catholic Ireland largely leave the fold?
Why did the land of King St Louis behead it clerics?
Why did South America react so strongly to Benedict's statement that the indigenous
people were hungry for the faith to come in the form of the COnquistidores?
(and why did the Mayans take their faith, language and culture into the mountains and
jungles to safeguard and preserve it to this day)
Why did friends of the church like Pinochet have to murder 10000 people to establish
goverments friendly to the church? Why did so many resist?
Why did friends of the church like Franco have to have the Luftwaffe bomb guernica
into rubble to get a government that the church supported into power into spain? Why
did hundreds of thousands resist until death despite the church demanding Franco
going into power?
Gee, why do so many not want Church approved dictators and totalitatians? Why do they
not want the church to have power over their lives? Why are they willing to die to
throw off that power or to prevent it from gaining power?
--
Felice Schragenheim
"Jaguar"
One of the Lesbian Immortals
"I'd be satisfied with one single moment, so perfect, it would last a lifetime. For
example, this one. This one here is great. I don't want forever. I want now. Now!
Now! Now! I want loads of 'nows' and I want them til I turn old and grey"- "Jaguar"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N12JU6-mGDs
AMBAN
>
>
>
>
>"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>news:1180725615....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
><Snip>
>
>
>
>> + I will pray for you.
>> + While I live in the present.
>
>
>Prayer is a bunch of empty words that make impotent little twits like you
>feel good about themselves.
It absolves them from any direct involvment.
AMBAN
says...
My parents were intelligent people. If there was evidence of termites I would
have suggested it. All of the houses they owned are still standing.
AMBAN
>
sixtus
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1180796869.1...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Now that you've once again demonstrated how fucking dumb you are, I do feel
better.
ASSHOLE
Patrick
> > > And just as with the church not being vigilant the twisted desecrators destroy
> > > the structure from within and without the knowledge of those who do not want to see. I had every house I purchased tested for termites. I wasn't a fool.
>
> > + How about the house you grew up in with your parents?
> > + How old were you when you demanded a termite inspection?
>
> She did not purchase that house patrick.
+ Just as you and I did not pick the religion
that our parents thrust upon us. We didn't have a
choice. Once you reach an age of reason, then it
is up to you to determine and choose your destiny.
> Patrick, do you ever worry that maybe the Church's self-percieved popularity is a
> myth?
+ Nope.
+ Why would I?
+ I also don't worry about whether Catholicism is
better than Lutherans, Episcopaleans, Baptists.
+ I know what is expected in beliefs by Catholics.
+ And I am comfortable with it.
+ I've explored many other faiths merely for curiosity
and for their friendliness at the front door.
+ Bottom line is what do they believe?
+ And what do I feel comfortable in believing....
> Why did Catholic Ireland largely leave the fold?
+ I don't know that they did.
+ If you are speaking about one Catholic leader who wielded
exceptional power, then you should read:
John Charles McQuiad: Ruler of Catholic Ireland
by John Cooney
(Hardback; 25.00 IEP / 36.50 USD)
This is the first major study of the life and times of John Charles
McQuaid, Archbishop of Dublin, who for more than three decades, from
1940 to 1972, dominated political and social and religious
developments in Ireland. While Archbishop McQuaid ranks as one of the
great social reformers of independent Ireland, he was also a 'control
freak'. A superb administrator, and an admirer of J.Edgar Hoover's
FBI, he imposed his iron will on Irish politics and society by
instilling fear among his clergy and people. Resolutely opposed to
Communism and libneralis, McQuaid's 'vigilance committee' kept files
on politicians and priests, workers and students, doctors and lawyers,
nuns and nurses, housewives and trade unionists, writers and film-
makers. There was no room for dissent. His ambition was directed
towards the building up of a truly Catholic State - he attempted to
exclued Protestants, Jews, liberal Catholics and feminists.
This book tells the inside story of how McQuaid crushed the attempts
of the reformist Minister for Health, Dr. Noel Browne, to introduce a
free welfare system for mothers and children. It also shows how
McQuaid exercised enormous power over all aspects of government:
education, hospitals, the adoption services, penal institutions and
criminal justice system. For Protestants in Northern Ireland, he
embodied their fears of 'Rome Rule'.
This book for the first time looks at the career of this giant in
Irish life, who also wielded enormous influence in defining Ireland's
relations with the Vatican and the Irish Catholic diaspora worldwide.
In this exceptional study, McQuaid comes to life as an extraordinary
man, able to seize every opportunity to forward his ideals and those
of his Church.
Read Ireland Bookstore
392 Clontarf Road
Clontarf, Dublin 3
Ireland
> Why did the land of King St Louis behead it clerics?
+ What land is that?
+ When did this occur?
+ Was it during my lifetime?
+ Was it before or after the St Bartholomew massacre?
> Why did South America react so strongly to Benedict's statement that the indigenous people were hungry for the faith to come in the form of the COnquistidores?
+ Uhhhhhh.
+ Couldit be because the press is looking for a flaw
in the Holy Father's words? Duh?
+ Reminds me of how Dave Letterman spends his time at night to make
fun of the latest thing Pres Bush said.
> (and why did the Mayans take their faith, language and culture into the mountains and jungles to safeguard and preserve it to this day)
+ They did a good job.
+ Mexicans are still looking for them in Tuulum.
> Why did friends of the church like Pinochet have to murder 10000 people to establish goverments friendly to the church? Why did so many resist?
+ Oh I don't know.
+ If some dictator tries to kill me, I suppose I might resist.
+ How boutchu?
> Why did friends of the church like Franco have to have the Luftwaffe bomb guernica into rubble to get a government that the church supported into power into spain? Why did hundreds of thousands resist until death despite the church demanding Franco going into power?
+ Evil power hungry people using the church for their own means?
+ Could this answer most of your questions?
+ Or are you looking for a conspiracy of the RCC to
take over the world?
> Gee, why do so many not want Church approved dictators and totalitatians? Why do they not want the church to have power over their lives? Why are they willing to die to throw off that power or to prevent it from gaining power?
+ And you have forgotten to mention Hitler, Mussilini, sadam....
Patrick
> >> I had every house I purchased tested for termites. I wasn't a fool.
>
> >+ How about the house you grew up in with your parents?
> >+ How old were you when you demanded a termite inspection?
>
> My parents were intelligent people. If there was evidence of termites I would
> have suggested it. All of the houses they owned are still standing.
+ Gosh, are you really that dense?
Patrick
> In article <f3rqnl12...@news4.newsguy.com>, sixtus says...
> >"Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>
> ><Snip>
>
> >> + I will pray for you.
> >> + While I live in the present.
>
> >Prayer is a bunch of empty words that make impotent little twits like you
> >feel good about themselves.
>
> It absolves them from any direct involvment.
+ how much closer do you want me, honey?
sixtus
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1180817743....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
And the fucking catholic wannabe christian puts on his patronizing
chauvinistic act just to show what a fucking asshole he is.
sixtus
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1180817683.0...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Gosh, YOU'RE the dense one here, Dickwad.
Alan Ferris
wrote:
>+ I know what is expected in beliefs by Catholics.
"I am a liar" - P Barker
Nuff said
Newk Indofman
> + I know what is expected in beliefs by Catholics.
> + And I am comfortable with it.
Why are you comfortable with it? Specifically which beliefs are you
comfortable with? Are you comfortable with these beliefs because you have
reasoned through them?
AMBAN
says...
????? The first home I owned was over 200 years old and it is still standing.
It must have something to do with be mindful of dangers instead of saying, "Oh
look at the pretty colors." Wise up Patrick. You just proved your position is
unwise. NO wonder houses your parents have owned are no longer standing. And
the termites have eaten out the inside of your church because you were too busy
admiring the stain glass windows.
Message-ID: <1180725615....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
"+ If you want to look for any find the termites in a building, go for
it.
+ I prefer to enjoy the beauty of the architecture, the style,
the art within it. You look for the ugliness. You see a glass half
empty. You want to delve into the bad. You are the pessimist here.
You live in the past."
You are an idiot.
AMBAN
>
AMBAN
says...
I can smell your soul decay from here tootsie - not any closer. But we can
still take up that collection for you! the 25 cent bargains are your usual
right?
AMBAN
>
AMBAN
>
>
>
>"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>news:1180817743....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 2, 12:44 pm, AMBAN <revetahwhasl...@sap234.com> wrote:
>>> In article <f3rqnl12...@news4.newsguy.com>, sixtus says...
>>> >"Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> ><Snip>
>>>
>>> >> + I will pray for you.
>>> >> + While I live in the present.
>>>
>>> >Prayer is a bunch of empty words that make impotent little twits like
>>> >you
>>> >feel good about themselves.
>>>
>>> It absolves them from any direct involvment.
>>
>> + how much closer do you want me, honey?
>
>And the fucking catholic wannabe christian puts on his patronizing
>chauvinistic act just to show what a fucking asshole he is.
Nah he is hot for me. He has always been jealous of the clergy.
AMBAN
AMBAN
He isn't comfortable with them. He did not want to have natural children. He
is a liar.
AMBAN
>
>
toxica...@thevatican.com
On 1-Jun-2007, Patrick <bark...@erinet.com> wrote:
> > It is common knowledge that the Vatican played a part in the "ratline"
> > used
> > by Nazis to escape after the war and was an active part of Odessa.
>
> + Common knowledge shared by catholic bashers.
> + Do you care to share any proof?
It is not my job to provide you with an education. Find out for yourself
what everyone else already knows, you fucking moron.
sixtus
"AMBAN" <revetah...@sap234.com> wrote in message
news:190838353.000...@drn.newsguy.com...
He is comfortable with only the beliefs he's comfortable with. Like most
cafeteria catholics.
sixtus
"AMBAN" <revetah...@sap234.com> wrote in message
news:190837756.000...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <1180817683.0...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Patrick
> says...
>>
>>On Jun 2, 1:02 pm, AMBAN <revetahwhasl...@sap234.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >> I had every house I purchased tested for termites. I wasn't a
>>> >> fool.
>>>
>>> >+ How about the house you grew up in with your parents?
>>> >+ How old were you when you demanded a termite inspection?
>>>
>>>My parents were intelligent people. If there was evidence of termites I
>>>would
>>> have suggested it. All of the houses they owned are still standing.
>>
>>+ Gosh, are you really that dense?
>
> ????? The first home I owned was over 200 years old and it is still
> standing.
> It must have something to do with be mindful of dangers instead of saying,
> "Oh
> look at the pretty colors." Wise up Patrick. You just proved your
> position is
> unwise. NO wonder houses your parents have owned are no longer standing.
> And
> the termites have eaten out the inside of your church because you were too
> busy
> admiring the stain glass windows.
There was also the neighbors' wives and the altar boys and his brother
knights to keep him busy.
--
--
Sixtus
I get to sin, get to fess up, get to forget about
it and move on with my life. (Poo Barker; 11-9-2006)
My source is:
http://www.bible.ca/catholic.htm (Poo Barker, 3-23-07)
From a priest's point of view, you have done harm, not good. You have
practiced vice, rather than virtue.
From a Catholic perspective, Patrick, what you do here is sinful. (Father
Rob Dye; Jan. 25, 2005)
>
>
AMBAN
>
>
>"AMBAN" <revetah...@sap234.com> wrote in message
>news:190838353.000...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> In article <46620c9c$0$1410$4c36...@roadrunner.com>, Newk Indofman
>> says...
>>>
>>>
>>>"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1180817638.1...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> + I know what is expected in beliefs by Catholics.
>>>> + And I am comfortable with it.
>>>
>>>Why are you comfortable with it? Specifically which beliefs are you
>>>comfortable with? Are you comfortable with these beliefs because you have
>>>reasoned through them?
>>
>> He isn't comfortable with them. He did not want to have natural children.
>> He
>> is a liar.
>>
>> AMBAN
>
>He is comfortable with only the beliefs he's comfortable with. Like most
>cafeteria catholics.
Not a part of the church Benny wants.
AMBAN
Jaguar
Patrick wrote:
> On Jun 2, 11:46 am, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
>
> + And you have forgotten to mention Hitler, Mussilini, sadam....
Ok Paddy
Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
George Bush over the Democrats
The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
Benito Mussolini
Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
Patrick
> "Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in message
+ We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven
and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord,
Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not
made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.
For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of
the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For
our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and
was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the
scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of
the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the
dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has
spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and
apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of
sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the
world to come. Amen.
Patrick
> >"Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in message
> >> + I know what is expected in beliefs by Catholics.
> >> + And I am comfortable with it.
>
> >Why are you comfortable with it? Specifically which beliefs are you
> >comfortable with? Are you comfortable with these beliefs because you have
> >reasoned through them?
>
> He isn't comfortable with them. He did not want to have natural children. He
> is a liar.
+ Huh?
+ Do you really want to argue about this?
Patrick
> Ok Paddy
> Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
>
> Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
> Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
> Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
> George Bush over the Democrats
> The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
> Benito Mussolini
> Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
> Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
> Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
+ The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
+ The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
the government.
+ This is a silly debate topic.
+ I used to dislike green beans. Now they are OK.
Patrick
> >> >> I had every house I purchased tested for termites. I wasn't a fool.
> >> have suggested it. All of the houses they owned are still standing.
> It must have something to do with be mindful of dangers instead of saying, "Oh
> look at the pretty colors." Wise up Patrick. You just proved your position is
> unwise. NO wonder houses your parents have owned are no longer standing. And the termites have eaten out the inside of your church because you were too busy admiring the stain glass windows.
+ The Roman Catholic Church still stands, honey.
+ Please read the following.....
The Catholic League had two choices in dealing with the sex abuse
scandal in the Catholic Church: shut up or speak up. I decided we
should speak up.
To shut up would have been to throw the floor open to every dissident
voice in the Church. Moreover, bigots would have gone unanswered. So I
decided it was better to jump into the ring so as not to allow the
adversaries of the Church to carry the day. Fortunately, the
overwhelming response from our members has been to approve of this
stance.
It hasn't been easy. Indeed, this has been the most difficult chapter
in my professional life. But it's worth it. This is, after all, the
Church that I love. And by running from TV studio to TV studio, I have
been able to reach millions of Americans, and not just Catholics.
That's the great advantage of having an office in mid-town Manhattan.
Our role in the scandal is twofold: a) to emphasize the good work done
by most priests while refusing to defend how the Church has handled
this matter and b) to fight those who seek to exploit this issue for
partisan purposes. At times it can be taxing, but I believe we have
carved out the right path. The credibility of the Catholic League
would be nil if we made the mistake of being defensive and apologetic
about the scandal. No, some in the Church dropped the ball big time.
There are something like 46,000 priests in this country and most are
outstanding men who give their life to the Church. But as no less than
Cardinal O'Connor himself once wrote, "some priests are evil." Yes,
that was his wording. It is important to acknowledge this because some
Catholics still think it is a sign of disloyalty to criticize the
Church for any reason. I love my country and my religion and it is
precisely because I do so that I jump on leaders who mess up.
Disloyalty suggests putting a knife in the back of those whom we
purportedly serve. That is not what is going on in this instance.
Those with their agendas love what's going on. I have confronted
several of the dissidents on TV and every time I do I go right at
them, charging that they don't believe a word the Church teaches on
sexuality. So why should anyone be surprised that they are now asking
for married priests, women priests and a complete overhaul of Church
teachings on abortion, homosexuality, etc.?
Ending celibacy and allowing women to become priests would solve
absolutely nothing. The problem, deep down, is a fundamental lack of
discipline and accountability coupled with an astonishing lack of
courage. It does not exaggerate to say there is more insubordination
with impunity tolerated in the Catholic Church than at the New York
Times. It is high time a giant STOP sign were placed in seminaries,
parishes, Catholic campuses and diocesan offices.
It is not comforting to ask someone to find another job. But sometimes
it must be done. Saying "no" does not come easy, especially to those
ensconced in a culture of casualness. And that would include many in
the Church. The therapeutic culture that we live in has done far more
damage than it has good and it is about time everyone recognized it.
In the 1980s, I was speaking to a woman professor of psychology about
a misbehaving student of mine. I told her how I handled him-I laid it
on the line and told him to shape up or ship out. "Oh, that's great,
Bill," she said. "Tough love." "Tough love?" I answered. "Gee, and I
just thought it was common sense."
The problem with common sense is that it isn't a common property these
days. It used to be that it was caught: it was part of catching norms,
values and sensibilities that are a natural part of growing up.
Nowadays, I guess, it has to be taught. Unfortunately, those teaching
it too often lack the faculty themselves.
Over and over again, I have said to the media that what is needed to
reform the Catholic Church is not a blue ribbon commission, nor
further reliance on lawyers and psychologists. What we need is more
common sense and the courage to act on our convictions.
This issue of Catalyst is different from any other. Instead of using
our news releases as a basis upon which to write a story for Catalyst,
I decided to present them just the way the media receives them. This
way you get a chance to view the raw copy. Now you know how we entice
the media to respond. Our news releases are informative, timely, short
and provocative. That's what the media wants and that's what we
deliver.
To those who despair, I remind them that now is not the time to throw
the towel in. Now is the time to clean house and start anew.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
A TIME FOR REDEMPTION
BY DAVID REINHARD
I think the Roman Catholic Church has turned the corner on its priest
sexual abuse scandal. Yes, turned the corner.
True, the stories about pedophile priests-the crimes and cover-ups-
will fill the news and fuel the outrage of Catholics, non-Catholics
and anti-Catholics for some time to come. The courts, civil and
criminal, will continue to mete out some measure of justice in these
cases for a good while.
And commentators of all stripes, faiths and motivations will offer
their opinions on what ails the Catholic priesthood. But, in recent
weeks, the church has finally moved to right itself, and not because
of any recent statements from the Vatican or American bishops, welcome
as they may be. I've seen the first fitful steps at two churches in
Portland [Oregon], and I'm sure many other Catholics have witnessed
the same thing at their churches. It happens when a priest breaks from
discussing the daily scripture readings and devotes his homily to
today's all-too-routine headlines. It happens when a priest marshals
the courage and grace to speak about the unspeakable-a priest's sexual
abuse of children, what Philadelphia's Cardinal Anthony J. Bevilacqua
calls "the most depraved of moral aberrations."
How difficult it must be for these priests to address this with their
congregations, particularly with altar boys or girls and other
youngsters in attendance. It must be uncomfortable as, well, hell.
Certainly, it is for the most faithful Catholics.
AMBAN
says...
Patrick doesn't know that doesn't make him a Roman Catholic. That makes him one
of several Christian denominations.
AMBAN
Newk Indofman
So... you believe without evidence or reason -- you just accept these
propositions because someone told you that is what you should believe.
AMBAN
And the termites destroy the inside of his house.
AMBAN
>
>
Jaguar
Patrick wrote:
> On Jun 3, 11:11 am, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
> > Ok Paddy
> > Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
> >
> > Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
> > Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
> > Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
> > George Bush over the Democrats
> > The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
> > Benito Mussolini
> > Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
> > Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
> > Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
>
> + The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
> + The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
Not true Patrick
It has on many occasions thrown its weight behind a government.
>
> over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
> the government.
>
> + This is a silly debate topic.
> + I used to dislike green beans. Now they are OK.
--
Alan Ferris
wrote:
Poor sad Barker has to cut and past rather than actually write it.
Patrick
+ Yup.
+ It's called "Faith."
Patrick
> Patrick wrote:
> > On Jun 3, 11:11 am, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
> > > Ok Paddy
> > > Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
>
> > > Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
> > > Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
> > > Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
> > > George Bush over the Democrats
> > > The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
> > > Benito Mussolini
> > > Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
> > > Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
> > > Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
>
> > + The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
> > + The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
>
> Not true Patrick
> It has on many occasions thrown its weight behind a government.
+ It also believed the earth was the center of the universe.
+ It also believed in the crusades.
Newk Indofman
It's also called "Madness" or "Stupidity".
"While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness
or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds
immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse
where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human
being could possibly be certain about. It is telling that this aura of
nobility extends only to those faiths that still have many subscribers.
Anyone caught worshipping Poseidon, even at sea, will be thought insane."
Sam Harris, from "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Patrick
> "Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in message
> > On Jun 3, 8:38 pm, "Newk Indofman" <N...@Indofman.com> wrote:
> >> "Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > + I know what is expected in beliefs by Catholics.
+ Did Poseidon exist?
+ Did he write a bible?
Jaguar
Patrick wrote:
> On Jun 3, 11:11 pm, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
> > Patrick wrote:
> > > On Jun 3, 11:11 am, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
> > > > Ok Paddy
> > > > Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
> >
> > > > Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
> > > > Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
> > > > Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
> > > > George Bush over the Democrats
> > > > The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
> > > > Benito Mussolini
> > > > Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
> > > > Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
> > > > Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
> >
> > > + The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
> > > + The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
> >
> > Not true Patrick
> > It has on many occasions thrown its weight behind a government.
>
> + It also believed the earth was the center of the universe.
> + It also believed in the crusades.
>
Paddy;
You realize that you just made my argument for me.
Catholic Church =Bad
The Enlightement thinkers=Good
googoothegood
wrote:
Has the RCC ever met a right-wing dictatorship it didn't like?
In this article
http://www.americas.org/item_330
the writer describes how in Chile (and the rest of Latin America)
there were "two versions of the Catholic Church". One church whose
leadership backed dictatorship, and the other composed of individual
priests and nuns that supported human rights and sided with the poor.
The individual clerics, as well as progressive bishops in Latin
America who worked for reforms on behalf of the poor ran into problems
when John Paul II became pope.
Is it your theory the priests and nuns who pleaded the cause of the
impoverished in Chile held 'sinful beliefs', and so needed to be
dealt with because of their 'sins'? They certainly pissed off the
Pinochet government, but was that a sin? What was their sin?
>+ This is a silly debate topic.
>+ I used to dislike green beans. Now they are OK.
It's worse than silly to equate the support of the Vatican for a
murdering dictator like General Pinochet with your changing taste in
vegetables.
Sergius Bacchus
Where's the evidence that your God exists?
(Certainly not in the actions of your church.)
> + Did he write a bible?
That's your proof? How do you know for a fact that your God wrote the bible?
And how do you know that the Creator of the Universe is biologically male?
All it proves is that your beliefs are unsupported.
There is at least as much written about Poseidon (or Santa Claus) as there
is written about the Hebrew god, yet for no good reason you fall on the side
of Yahweh. And you can't explain it.
Newk Indofman
Many people had absolute "faith" that Poseidon existed -- the same as your
"faith".
> + Did he write a bible?
Is your god's last name Gutenberg?
sixtus
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1180913935.7...@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
>+ We believe in one, holy, catholic, and
> apostolic Church.
<snip>
What does this statement mean???
sixtus
"AMBAN" <revetah...@sap234.com> wrote in message
news:190915752.000...@drn.newsguy.com...
Patrick doesn't know what it means to believe in one holy catholic and
apostolic church.
AMBAN
says...
He is worse than silly he is an
>> ............................................./\.........../\
>> ............................................( \\.........// )
>> .............................................\ \\.......// /
>> ..............................................\_\\||||//_/
>> ........................................\/..... _ ..._ \
>> .......................................\/.....|(O).(O)|
>> ......................................\/..... |............|
>> .....________________\/.......\.........../
>> ....//... ..........................//..........|____|
>> ...//...............................||......... /.........\
>> ..//|...............................\|..........\ 0...0 /
>> .//.\.........)......................V....../..\___/
>> //...\......./.....................(......../
>> ""....\..../____________|...|_/
>> ......./../.\.../....................|...||
>> ....../../../../.....................\ ..||
>> ......|..|..|..|.......................|..||
>> ......|..|..|..|.......................|..||
>> ......|_|..|_|.......................|_||
>> .......\_\ \_\ ....................\_\\ Hard'96
Patrick
> Where's the evidence that your God exists?
+ Look around you.
> > + Did he write a bible?
>
> That's your proof?
+ Did I say it was?
> How do you know for a fact that your God wrote the bible?
+ I'm pretty sure He didn't.
> And how do you know that the Creator of the Universe is biologically male?
> All it proves is that your beliefs are unsupported.
+ Why do people name their ships with "female" names?
+ Are they females?
+ The male personna was provided for dolts like you who
need human-type explanations for something you can't
possible ever comprehend.
> There is at least as much written about Poseidon (or Santa Claus) as there
> is written about the Hebrew god, yet for no good reason you fall on the side
> of Yahweh. And you can't explain it.-
+ Really?
+ Are you trying to josh me?
Patrick
> Is your god's last name Gutenberg?
+ Nope.
+ Did Gutenburg write the bible?
Patrick
> <snip>
>
> >+ We believe in one, holy, catholic, and
> > apostolic Church.
>
> <snip>
>
> What does this statement mean???
+ Go back to yer likker, sixpack.
+ Maybe you'll understand after another drink.
Patrick
+ Actually, you aren't quite correct here.
+ Catholic Church -- SLOW in changing.
+ Enlightenment thinkers - GOOD.
Patrick
> , Patrick <barker...@erinet.com>> wrote:
> >On Jun 3, 11:11 am, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
> >> Ok Paddy
> >> Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
>
> >> Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
> >> Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
> >> Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
> >> George Bush over the Democrats
> >> The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
> >> Benito Mussolini
> >> Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
> >> Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
> >> Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
>
> >+ The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
> >+ The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
> >over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
> >the government.
>
> Has the RCC ever met a right-wing dictatorship it didn't like?
+ I dunno what you mean.
+ I'm sure you can find that the Catholic Church is pretty consistent
with its concern over human rights and sinful activity. The pope
certainly has spoken out against the death penalty, abortion,
euthanasia, homosexuality mainstreaming, etc.
> http://www.americas.org/item_330
>
> the writer describes how in Chile (and the rest of Latin America)
> there were "two versions of the Catholic Church". One church whose
> leadership backed dictatorship, and the other composed of individual
> priests and nuns that supported human rights and sided with the poor.
+ In some cases.... throughout history, choices have
to be made between evil and more evil.
+ For those arcers who wish to argue this one, remind me of John
Densch.
> The individual clerics, as well as progressive bishops in Latin
> America who worked for reforms on behalf of the poor ran into problems
> when John Paul II became pope.
>
> Is it your theory the priests and nuns who pleaded the cause of the
> impoverished in Chile held 'sinful beliefs', and so needed to be
> dealt with because of their 'sins'?
+ Nope.
+ In fact, no person on earth would hold that view.
+ Why would you embarrass yourself by asking it?
> They certainly pissed off the
> Pinochet government,
+ OK.
+ So what?
> but was that a sin? What was their sin?
+ No sin.
+ Do you want it to be a sin?
+ Why do you build a strawman and expect me to defend it?
+ That is like asking "Were you ever discovered beating
and killing your childhood pets?
+ Answer this : YES or NO.
+ No further explanation is required.
> >+ This is a silly debate topic.
> >+ I used to dislike green beans. Now they are OK.
>
> It's worse than silly to equate the support of the Vatican for a
> murdering dictator like General Pinochet with your changing taste in
> vegetables.-
+ Why in the world do you attack windmills?
+ Please provide (what you think) is support that the Vatican
has provided to some murdering dictator.
AMBAN
says...
Ha Ha Patrick doesn't know what it means so he becomes abusive again. What an
ass.
AMBAN
>
Newk Indofman
> On Jun 5, 1:33 am, "Sergius Bacchus" <spaghe...@carbonara.com> wrote:
>
>> Where's the evidence that your God exists?
>
> + Look around you.
I see lots of people all over the world who claim to believe in God, yet
they don't act like it. That includes you. They victimize others, including
children, and they engage in genocide, murder and war. Is that your
"evidence"?
>
>
>> > + Did he write a bible?
>>
>> That's your proof?
>
> + Did I say it was?
Of course you did.
>
>> How do you know for a fact that your God wrote the bible?
>
> + I'm pretty sure He didn't.
Case closed.
Newk Indofman
Every single person who wrote and rewrote and re-re-wrote the words which
eventually became known as the "bible" took liberties in translation and
inserted their own ignorance, bias and arrogance -- a religious specialty.
It sure as hell didn't come from "God".
Alan Ferris
wrote:
>+ I'm sure you can find that the Catholic Church is pretty consistent
>with its concern over human rights and sinful activity.
So it constantly hides sin in its own ranks then...they were certainly
consistent in hiding child rapists.
AMBAN
says...
>
>+ Why do you build a strawman and expect me to defend it?
>+ That is like asking "Were you ever discovered beating
>and killing your childhood pets?
>+ Answer this : YES or NO.
>+ No further explanation is required.
straw man argument and even at that he does a poor job. Have you stopped
beating and killing your childhood pets? would be better. DOH save me from
ignorance.
AMBAN
>
>
>"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>news:1181046476.1...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 5, 1:33 am, "Sergius Bacchus" <spaghe...@carbonara.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Where's the evidence that your God exists?
>>
>> + Look around you.
>
>I see lots of people all over the world who claim to believe in God, yet
>they don't act like it. That includes you. They victimize others, including
>children, and they engage in genocide, murder and war. Is that your
>"evidence"?
Since being a member of this newsgroup people like Patrick, Scout Lady, Duke,
Gracie etc have proved to me there is less of a chance of a god existing
especially the gods that they say exist. People who appear to be normal (well I
don't know much about Gracie) to the outside world but are just horrible human
beings and are proud of it.
AMBAN
Jaguar
Patrick wrote:
Popes also spoke against tolerating other religions., against democracy, against feminism, against reading the bible, against the earth
revolving around the sun,
>
> > http://www.americas.org/item_330
> >
> > the writer describes how in Chile (and the rest of Latin America)
> > there were "two versions of the Catholic Church". One church whose
> > leadership backed dictatorship, and the other composed of individual
> > priests and nuns that supported human rights and sided with the poor.
>
> + In some cases.... throughout history, choices have
> to be made between evil and more evil.
The church makes sone shady choices...church power vs 11000 dead....
>
> + For those arcers who wish to argue this one, remind me of John
> Densch.
>
> > The individual clerics, as well as progressive bishops in Latin
> > America who worked for reforms on behalf of the poor ran into problems
> > when John Paul II became pope.
> >
> > Is it your theory the priests and nuns who pleaded the cause of the
> > impoverished in Chile held 'sinful beliefs', and so needed to be
> > dealt with because of their 'sins'?
>
> + Nope.
> + In fact, no person on earth would hold that view.
> + Why would you embarrass yourself by asking it?
>
> > They certainly pissed off the
> > Pinochet government,
>
> + OK.
> + So what?
It cost them their lives and Cardinal soldano turned them over to Pinochet....and JPII made him Vatican Secretary of State....
Newk Indofman
> In article <46657c4e$0$4878$4c36...@roadrunner.com>, Newk Indofman
> says...
>>
>>
>>"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>>news:1181046476.1...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jun 5, 1:33 am, "Sergius Bacchus" <spaghe...@carbonara.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Where's the evidence that your God exists?
>>>
>>> + Look around you.
>>
>>I see lots of people all over the world who claim to believe in God, yet
>>they don't act like it. That includes you. They victimize others,
>>including
>>children, and they engage in genocide, murder and war. Is that your
>>"evidence"?
>
> Since being a member of this newsgroup people like Patrick, Scout Lady,
> Duke,
> Gracie etc have proved to me there is less of a chance of a god existing
> especially the gods that they say exist. People who appear to be normal
> (well I
> don't know much about Gracie) to the outside world but are just horrible
> human
> beings and are proud of it.
I am completely convinced that the sadistic god presented to us by Patrick,
Gracie, et al, does not and can not exist.
I don't know whether or not a "divine" and supreme being exists or in what
form or dimension this being would take. I can say that I am and always have
been wide open to that possibility! I can also say that there is a grand
purpose and design evident in the universe which fills me with a sense of
wonder and awe. I love this recent Bruce Cockburn song, "To Fit In My
Heart", which sums it up for me:
Endless silver
Wave forms crash in
Sea's too big to fit in my brain [heart]
Nothings too big to fit in my heart
Seas come, seas go
Where they stood deserts flow
Time's too big to fit in the brain
Nothing's too big to fit in my heart
Spacetime strings bend
World without end
God's too big to fit in a book
Nothings too big to fit in my heart
toxica...@thevatican.com
On 3-Jun-2007, Patrick <bark...@erinet.com> wrote:
> > Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
> > Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
> > Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
> > George Bush over the Democrats
> > The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
> > Benito Mussolini
> > Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
> > Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
> > Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the
> > revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
>
> + The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
> + The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
> over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
> the government.
Bullshit. The church participates in the sinful acts governments to protect
its own wealth & power.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
googoothegood
wrote:
>On Jun 5, 12:50 am, goo goo the good wrote:
>> , Patrick <barker...@erinet.com>> wrote:
>> >On Jun 3, 11:11 am, Jaguar <Feli...@LesbianResistance.de> wrote:
>> >> Ok Paddy
>> >> Lets look at the kinds of governments that the Church liked at least initially:
>>
>> >> Pinochet(they prefered over allende)
>> >> Petain/Laval(over the French Republic)
>> >> Bourbon Monarchy(over the French Republic_
>> >> George Bush over the Democrats
>> >> The Third Reich(over the Weimar Republic)
>> >> Benito Mussolini
>> >> Francisco Franco(over the Spanish Republic)
>> >> Ustashi Government(over the Yugoslavian Government)
>> >> Landowers over the poor in Mexico(prolonging and intensifying the revolution and turning it anticlerical, just as it became in France)
>>
>> >+ The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
>> >+ The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
>> >over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
>> >the government.
>>
>> Has the RCC ever met a right-wing dictatorship it didn't like?
>
>+ I dunno what you mean.
Sure you do.
>+ I'm sure you can find that the Catholic Church is pretty consistent
>with its concern over human rights and sinful activity. The pope
>certainly has spoken out against the death penalty, abortion,
>euthanasia, homosexuality mainstreaming, etc.
>
>> http://www.americas.org/item_330
The 'Liberation Theology' movement concerned itself with human
rights. Are you aware of the position of JPII and then Cardinal
Ratzinger regarding this movement in Latin America?
>>
>> the writer describes how in Chile (and the rest of Latin America)
>> there were "two versions of the Catholic Church". One church whose
>> leadership backed dictatorship, and the other composed of individual
>> priests and nuns that supported human rights and sided with the poor.
>
>+ In some cases.... throughout history, choices have
>to be made between evil and more evil.
The church throughout much of its history has aligned itself with
authoritarian governments that hold down the poor, usually in the name
of keeping order. There are just too many examples of this -- in Latin
America particularly -- to argue otherwise.
>
>+ For those arcers who wish to argue this one, remind me of John
>Densch.
???
>> The individual clerics, as well as progressive bishops in Latin
>> America who worked for reforms on behalf of the poor ran into problems
>> when John Paul II became pope.
>>
>> Is it your theory the priests and nuns who pleaded the cause of the
>> impoverished in Chile held 'sinful beliefs', and so needed to be
>> dealt with because of their 'sins'?
>
>+ Nope.
>+ In fact, no person on earth would hold that view.
>+ Why would you embarrass yourself by asking it?
Why would I be embarrassed? I simply show how ridiculous was your
statement that the church never throws its weight behind a goverment,
and simply points out sinful beliefs of a government. Pinochet
believed he should crush his political enemies, thousands were
murdered and disappeared, and the church never corrected that belief.
In fact, since Pinochet's enemies were identified as communists or
'red sympathizers', their fate was not of serious concern to the RCC.
BTW, a number of those were local priests.
>> They certainly pissed off the
>> Pinochet government,
>
>+ OK.
>+ So what?
>
>> but was that a sin? What was their sin?
>
>+ No sin.
>+ Do you want it to be a sin?
>
>+ Why do you build a strawman and expect me to defend it?
>+ That is like asking "Were you ever discovered beating
>and killing your childhood pets?
It's nothing like that. But -- if there is something you'd like to
share in that regard, then by all means, do so.
>+ Answer this : YES or NO.
>+ No further explanation is required.
>
>
>> >+ This is a silly debate topic.
>> >+ I used to dislike green beans. Now they are OK.
>>
>> It's worse than silly to equate the support of the Vatican for a
>> murdering dictator like General Pinochet with your changing taste in
>> vegetables.-
>
>+ Why in the world do you attack windmills?
>+ Please provide (what you think) is support that the Vatican
>has provided to some murdering dictator.
First I would need to know how you feel about General Pinochet.
Perhaps you agree with the Vatican Secretary of State Angelo Sodano
who intervened on behalf of Pinochet in his successful fight to avoid
extradition from Britain to Spain where he faced trial for numeroius
counts of torture and brutality.
sixtus
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1181046606....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
It is so easy to make the Dickwad dance, it's pathetic. Many an arcer has
told him what the statement means and, although it is part of his creed
(which he says shows what he believes as a catholic), his words and his
actions show that he has no idea what it means to believe in his church.
The answer he gives me here is exactly the answer I expected and wanted, for
it shows just how ignorant he is of his faith. This made my day.
Patrick
> Patrick <barker...@erinet.com>> wrote:
> >> >+ The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
> >> >+ The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
> >> >over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
> >> >the government.
>
> >> Has the RCC ever met a right-wing dictatorship it didn't like?
>
> >+ I dunno what you mean.
>
> Sure you do.
+ The RCC neither "likes" nor "dislikes" dictatorships.
+ Have you ever met an ass hole you didn't like?
> >+ I'm sure you can find that the Catholic Church is pretty consistent
> >with its concern over human rights and sinful activity. The pope
> >certainly has spoken out against the death penalty, abortion,
> >euthanasia, homosexuality mainstreaming, etc.
>
> >>http://www.americas.org/item_330
>
> The 'Liberation Theology' movement concerned itself with human
> rights. Are you aware of the position of JPII and then Cardinal
> Ratzinger regarding this movement in Latin America?
+ Perhaps you could quote this movement.
+ Nor can it correct your belief.
+ How do you "correct" people's beliefs?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HASBÚN AND PINOCHET: A BAD PRIEST AND A FALSE MESSIAH
General Pinochet's dictatorship provoked a serious split between the
Catholic Church and the State. The effects of the initial persecution
against a Church which was progressive and identified itself with the
poor were terrible: four priests were murdered (Woodward, Alsina,
Gallegos, Jarlan), one was arrested and subsequently disappeared
(Llidó), dozens of monks and nuns were detained in torture centres.
106 priests and 32 nuns were forced to abandon the country during the
first four months after the coup and many others were expelled in
later years. The last of these were Dubois, Lancelot and Carouette.
The policy of official violence, backed by the doctrine of National
Security, continued during the following years with the destruction of
churches, the bulldozing of church meeting places and armed attacks on
gatherings. Both lay and pastoral members of he Church were persecuted
and terrorised, with the intention of subduing the Church and
legitimising the sad situation in which Chile found itself.[1]
Since 1964, the dictatorships of Latin America have openly manipulated
the different religious groups in order to create their own
ideological constructs and justify political aberration. Hence, in
official statements the coup leaders are presented as the defenders of
western Christian civilisation, in open conflict against atheism and
materialism. Thus, an authoritarian political policy and messianism
become synonymous. If one examines general Pinochet's statements, it
is easy to find expressions such as "the chosen one", "the saviour",
"the hand of God", "God gives me the right to fight", all of which
show his desire to assign to himself, and by extension to the Armed
Forces, a messianic function which, at a certain level, would fulfil
the role of legitimising the dictatorship and its political project.
The critical stance of a significant sector of the Church led the
general to seek spiritual legitimisation from within some of the
evangelical churches which, basing themselves on the belief of the
"divinity of power", gave him unconditional support, at least until
the point at which a group of evangelical churches sent an open letter
to general Pinochet on 29-8-86 making him "responsible, together with
the Armed Forces, in the eyes of God, for the blood which had been
spilled".[2]
In this context, how do we interpret the unfortunate actions and
statements of a representative of the Church such as the priest Raúl
Hasbún? Let us examine a few examples:
Hasbún, who comes from a comfortable background, had established, even
during the Allende government, a close political relationship with
ideologues linked to the fascist group Patria y Libertad (Pablo
Rodríguez, Rafael Otero and Jaime Guzmán, among others). During this
period of anti-democratic agitation Hasbún appeared involved in some
sinister events. In the early seventies, he was one of the directors
of the TV channel of the Catholic University. In March 1973, a group
of terrorists belonging to Patria y Libertad - including Michael
Townley, the man who years later was going to assassinate Orlando
Letelier in Washington in 1976 - carried out an operation designed to
deactivate a device that interfered with the illegal transmission of
TV Channel 5. This station had been set up by Hasbún to make more
effective his fanatical campaign to depose Allende's government. These
events led to the death of the worker José Tomás Henríquez, and the
moral responsibility for this death was attributed to Raúl Hasbún.
During Pinochet's dictatorship, Hasbún devoted his best sermons to
justifying the brutality of the regime. His contributions were the
obligatory prelude to the speeches of the dictator on national
television channels. Years later, in his odious speeches, he would
demand that the military adopt a harder line against the opposition.
As a result of Pinochet's arrest in London, Hasbún has lost his
Messiah, and has concentrated his efforts on prayers and homilies to
ask God to secure the release of the tyrant, who he has publicly
linked with Jesus Christ. His recent visit to London to baptise the
general's granddaughter - she had already been baptised - demonstrates
a devotion to the Pinochet family that is so blind that it reflects
badly on the Church and is an offence to the victims of the
dictatorship. Moreover, it has the effect of separating, dividing and
alienating. His latest speech given in the Military Academy (August
1999) constitutes a clear call for division and a lack of respect for
the Church hierarchy who are promoting exactly the opposite: justice,
peace and reconciliation in Chilean society.
Hasbún is a character who identifies with the most conservative wing
of the Church. Visceral in his anti-Marxism, he is an unconditional
supporter of the doctrine of National Security, which the dictatorship
used to overthrow the legal government and justify crimes. His stance
is in blatant opposition to the position of the Church emerging from
the Second Vatican Council, which continues to be the dominant
tendency in Chile; and it is in opposition to that of the popular or
liberationist church, which is also important in the country. Hasbún
is the antithesis of the late Cardinal Silva Henríquez and of many
other ecclesiastical figures whose ethically Christian work will be
favourably judged by history.
Hasbún writes a column in the daily newspaper El Mercurio, is a
commentator on the Universidad Católica's Channel 13 and a regular
guest on Radio Agricultura. From this privileged position, provided by
Chile's most reactionary communication media and the seminars of a
university founded by Pinochet, this priest has expressed opinions as
extreme as the following:
1. Baltazar Garzón, Judge of the Supreme Court of Spain, who is in
charge of the case against Pinochet, is a "scoundrel."
2. Chile should respect and be grateful for the existence of the DINA
and other intelligence and terror agencies - which were created by
Pinochet and which kidnapped, tortured and killed with impunity for
years.
3. Paul Schäfer is "innocent". A willing collaborator with the DINA,
Schäfer was the leader of the one time Colonia Dignidad, a place where
people were tortured and then never seen again. Today, Schäfer is the
criminal justice system's most wanted man, accused of sexual abuse
against children of that colony over many years.
4. Pinochet's suffering is equal to that of Jesus Christ.
5. Socialists are "intrinsically against the Fatherland" as well as
being "parasites who profit by sucking the blood of others".
Raúl Hasbún never uttered a word of condemnation against the crimes of
the dictatorship, neither did he criticise the death and suffering of
victims whether secular or ecclesiastical. He is a politicised priest
who disobeys the hierarchy of his own Church and refuses to adhere to
the mission which his Church has set out in its "Pastoral
Guides" (1986-1989). According to these Guides, the role of the
Catholic Church is that of promoting national unity and reconciliation
in order to return to a democracy in which the priesthood and the
faithful join hands with the people.
On the contrary, this bad priest has dedicated himself to encouraging
hatred and division among Chileans and he has underlined this in his
latest regrettable statements. These have been the subject of public
reprimands from the Archbishop of Santiago, Francisco Javier
Errázuriz; from the Vicario of the Pastoral Obrera, Monsignor Baeza;
from the Government of Chile; and from the group of parties which make
up the political platform of the Government. In spite of the
criticisms made by his own Archbishop and other bishops - such as
Manuel Camilo Vial, Fernando Ariztía and Carlos Camus - Hasbún has
used his air time on TV and Radio Agricultura to underline his views.
Not only has he repeated the same statements but he has also insisted
that they represent the true opinion of his church.
Father Hasbún is a negative element for the Church and for Chilean
society, which requires not more hatred but reconciliation and peace.
The Catholic Church, timid during the most decisive years, must now
strengthen the spiritual guidance of its people and take on a role
which is both more transparent and more in tune with the Christian
ethic of the Holy Scriptures. Chile has no need for false evangelists
who use the pulpit for personal and selfish ends in order to spread
hatred. The broadcasting of these kind of outrageous views at such a
sensitive moment of history is irresponsible and deserves more
rigorous punishment. There are priests who have been removed from
their positions for much lesser offences. The Catholic Church has
resorted to excommunication when it has wished to condemn extremist
views that are contrary to its doctrine. We have reached the point at
which History demands that the Church take meaningful steps and effect
a real reconciliation with those who suffer.
1. Jaime Escobar M. Persecución a la Iglesia en Chile (Martirologio
1973-1986). Santiago: Terranova Editores, 1986.
2. Artuto Chacón Herrera & Humberto Lagos Schuffeneger. Religión y
proyecto político autoritario. Concepción: Ediciones Lar (Proyecto
Evangélico de Estudios Socio-religiosos), 1986.
Carmen J. Galarce
July 99
> In fact, since Pinochet's enemies were identified as communists or
> 'red sympathizers', their fate was not of serious concern to the RCC.
+ One priest does not equate to the entire church.
> BTW, a number of those were local priests.
>
> >> They certainly pissed off the
> >> Pinochet government,
>
> >+ OK.
> >+ So what?
>
> >> but was that a sin? What was their sin?
>
> >+ No sin.
> >+ Do you want it to be a sin?
>
> >+ Why do you build a strawman and expect me to defend it?
> >+ That is like asking "Were you ever discovered beating
> >and killing your childhood pets?
>
> It's nothing like that. But -- if there is something you'd like to
> share in that regard, then by all means, do so.
+ The question was for you.
> >+ Answer this : YES or NO.
> >+ No further explanation is required.
>
> >> >+ This is a silly debate topic.
> >> >+ I used to dislike green beans. Now they are OK.
>
> >> It's worse than silly to equate the support of the Vatican for a
> >> murdering dictator like General Pinochet with your changing taste in
> >> vegetables.-
>
> >+ Why in the world do you attack windmills?
> >+ Please provide (what you think) is support that the Vatican
> >has provided to some murdering dictator.
>
> First I would need to know how you feel about General Pinochet.
+ He was a dictator who was like many dictators.
+ He grabbed power and did everything to keep his power.
+ I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about him,
or Noriega, Marcos, Samoza, or Mussilini.
> Perhaps you agree with the Vatican Secretary of State Angelo Sodano
> who intervened on behalf of Pinochet in his successful fight to avoid
> extradition from Britain to Spain where he faced trial for numeroius
> counts of torture and brutality.-
+ I neither agree nor do I disagree.
+ I don't much care about past dictators.
+ I am not a historian.
+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
could have been.
+ I am in the here and now.
+ Where are you?
AMBAN
says...
>
> >
>+ The RCC neither "likes" nor "dislikes" dictatorships.
>+ Have you ever met an ass hole you didn't like?
Yep you see him every morning in the mirror.
AMBAN
>
sixtus
Patrick
> In article <1181152783.770709.144...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Patrick
> says...
>
>
>
> >+ The RCC neither "likes" nor "dislikes" dictatorships.
> >+ Have you ever met an ass hole you didn't like?
>
> Yep you see him every morning in the mirror.
+ You love me and you know it.
AMBAN
AMBAN
Patrick is one of the few people I have actually met that I despise. I usually
find something I like about a person. But Patrick has no redeemable qualities.
>
googoothegood
wrote:
>On Jun 5, 11:35 pm, goo goo the good wrote:
>> Patrick <barker...@erinet.com>> wrote:
>
>> >> >+ The RCC is not in the kingdom building business.
>> >> >+ The RCC does not throw all its weight to one government
>> >> >over another except to point out certain sinful beliefs of
>> >> >the government.
>>
>> >> Has the RCC ever met a right-wing dictatorship it didn't like?
>>
>> >+ I dunno what you mean.
>>
>> Sure you do.
>
>+ The RCC neither "likes" nor "dislikes" dictatorships.
>+ Have you ever met an ass hole you didn't like?
Actually, 'asshole' is a term applied to someone *not* liked -- so
that's a really dumb question.
>
>> >+ I'm sure you can find that the Catholic Church is pretty consistent
>> >with its concern over human rights and sinful activity. The pope
>> >certainly has spoken out against the death penalty, abortion,
>> >euthanasia, homosexuality mainstreaming, etc.
>>
>> >>http://www.americas.org/item_330
>>
>> The 'Liberation Theology' movement concerned itself with human
>> rights. Are you aware of the position of JPII and then Cardinal
>> Ratzinger regarding this movement in Latin America?
>
>+ Perhaps you could quote this movement.
Sorry, Patrick, but if you want to participate in the disussion, you
need to bring a certain minimum of background information to the
table.
I'll just withdraw the question, though you've pretty much answered
it.
I believe you said the church 'points out' sinful beliefs of a
government. John Paul II paid the Pinochet government the honor of a
papal visit to Chile, and I don't find any mention of his ever having
pointed out sinful beliefs of that regime. Pinochet's government
murderd and tortured thousands, but maybe since a lot of those were
not friendly to the RCC, that was not considered sinful.
Apparently JPII saw nothing wrong with the government or General
Pinochet's beliefs.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>HASBÚN AND PINOCHET: A BAD PRIEST AND A FALSE MESSIAH
>
>General Pinochet's dictatorship provoked a serious split between the
>Catholic Church and the State. The effects of the initial persecution
>against a Church which was progressive and identified itself with the
>poor were terrible: four priests were murdered (Woodward, Alsina,
>Gallegos, Jarlan), one was arrested and subsequently disappeared
>(Llidó), dozens of monks and nuns were detained in torture centres.
>106 priests and 32 nuns were forced to abandon the country during the
>first four months after the coup and many others were expelled in
>later years. The last of these were Dubois, Lancelot and Carouette.
>The policy of official violence, backed by the doctrine of National
>Security, continued during the following years with the destruction of
>churches, the bulldozing of church meeting places and armed attacks on
>gatherings. Both lay and pastoral members of he Church were persecuted
>and terrorised, with the intention of subduing the Church and
>legitimising the sad situation in which Chile found itself.[1]
This is exactly how things were when JP II was elected pope.
Archbishop Silva of Santiago led a progressive effort to help the poor
and was subject to great pressure from Pinochet. Priests and nuns were
arrested and tortured. Before JPII became pope, that was considered
sinful.
Then John Paul II became pope, and intervened to stifle the
progressive movement in the church in Chile among other Latin American
countries. Papal Nuncio Angelo Sodano oversaw a conservative
transformation in Santiago and other large dioceses. A more
comfortable relationship between the church and Pinochet resulted.
>+ Please provide (what you think) is support that the Vatican
>> >has provided to some murdering dictator.
Sodano was a great supporter of Pinochet, and later, when Pinochet was
arrested in Britain, as Vatican Seceratary of State Sodano worked to
prevent the extradition of Pinochet to Spain for trial on charges of
torture of political prisoners.
Oh, wait a minute -- the church would never get into politics or
support a murdering dictator.
<snip>
>>
>> First I would need to know how you feel about General Pinochet.
>
>+ He was a dictator who was like many dictators.
>+ He grabbed power and did everything to keep his power.
>+ I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about him,
>or Noriega, Marcos, Samoza, or Mussilini.
>
>> Perhaps you agree with the Vatican Secretary of State Angelo Sodano
>> who intervened on behalf of Pinochet in his successful fight to avoid
>> extradition from Britain to Spain where he faced trial for numeroius
>> counts of torture and brutality.-
>
>+ I neither agree nor do I disagree.
>+ I don't much care about past dictators.
>+ I am not a historian.
Then don't say stupid things like "the church doesn't throw it's
weight behind a government". Why else does this little postage-stamp
state have a Secretary of State, and papal nuncios and other envoys
all over the world?
For a person who says he's a catholic, you don't understand much
about the RCC. Stick around, you can afford to learn a few things.
>+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
>could have been.
>+ I am in the here and now.
And the past is the best predictor of the present and future. You
don't like the truth about your beloved RCC, so you call it "lies".
When you're shown to be wrong,well, then, it's no longer important --
you don't live in the past.
>+ Where are you?
Right here, correcting your lies about the RCC.
Patrick
>
> Sorry, Patrick, but if you want to participate in the disussion, you
> need to bring a certain minimum of background information to the
> table.
+ OK
>
> I'll just withdraw the question, though you've pretty much answered
> it.
+ Whew... Thanks.
+ I wuz worried fer a minute.
> I believe you said the church 'points out' sinful beliefs of a
> government. John Paul II paid the Pinochet government the honor of a
> papal visit to Chile, and I don't find any mention of his ever having
> pointed out sinful beliefs of that regime. Pinochet's government
> murderd and tortured thousands, but maybe since a lot of those were
> not friendly to the RCC, that was not considered sinful.
> Apparently JPII saw nothing wrong with the government or General
> Pinochet's beliefs.
+ When Pinochet said confession to JP2, you should
have been there with a microphone. Maybe you
would have gotten an earful.
> >HASBÚN AND PINOCHET: A BAD PRIEST AND A FALSE MESSIAH
>
> >General Pinochet's dictatorship provoked a serious split between the
> >Catholic Church and the State. The effects of the initial persecution
> >against a Church which was progressive and identified itself with the
> >poor were terrible: four priests were murdered (Woodward, Alsina,
> >Gallegos, Jarlan), one was arrested and subsequently disappeared
> >(Llidó), dozens of monks and nuns were detained in torture centres.
> >106 priests and 32 nuns were forced to abandon the country during the
> >first four months after the coup and many others were expelled in
> >later years. The last of these were Dubois, Lancelot and Carouette.
> >The policy of official violence, backed by the doctrine of National
> >Security, continued during the following years with the destruction of
> >churches, the bulldozing of church meeting places and armed attacks on
> >gatherings. Both lay and pastoral members of he Church were persecuted
> >and terrorised, with the intention of subduing the Church and
> >legitimising the sad situation in which Chile found itself.[1]
>
> This is exactly how things were when JP II was elected pope.
> Archbishop Silva of Santiago led a progressive effort to help the poor
> and was subject to great pressure from Pinochet. Priests and nuns were
> arrested and tortured. Before JPII became pope, that was considered
> sinful.
+ oooooohhhh.
>
> Then John Paul II became pope, and intervened to stifle the
> progressive movement in the church in Chile among other Latin American
> countries. Papal Nuncio Angelo Sodano oversaw a conservative
> transformation in Santiago and other large dioceses. A more
> comfortable relationship between the church and Pinochet resulted.
+ aaaahhhhhhhhh.....
>
> >+ Please provide (what you think) is support that the Vatican
> >> >has provided to some murdering dictator.
>
> Sodano was a great supporter of Pinochet, and later, when Pinochet was
> arrested in Britain, as Vatican Seceratary of State Sodano worked to
> prevent the extradition of Pinochet to Spain for trial on charges of
> torture of political prisoners.
> Oh, wait a minute -- the church would never get into politics or
> support a murdering dictator.
+ Prove that Sodano did this.
+ I thought it was Jimmy Hoffa.
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> First I would need to know how you feel about General Pinochet.
>
> >+ He was a dictator who was like many dictators.
> >+ He grabbed power and did everything to keep his power.
> >+ I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about him,
> >or Noriega, Marcos, Samoza, or Mussilini.
>
> >> Perhaps you agree with the Vatican Secretary of State Angelo Sodano
> >> who intervened on behalf of Pinochet in his successful fight to avoid
> >> extradition from Britain to Spain where he faced trial for numeroius
> >> counts of torture and brutality.-
>
> >+ I neither agree nor do I disagree.
> >+ I don't much care about past dictators.
> >+ I am not a historian.
>
> Then don't say stupid things like "the church doesn't throw it's
> weight behind a government". Why else does this little postage-stamp
> state have a Secretary of State, and papal nuncios and other envoys
> all over the world?
+ Why do we have priests and bishops?
+ Jesus gave the church a mission to spread the "Good News"
to the world. We believe spreading the Gospel of the Lord is
following these directions.
> For a person who says he's a catholic, you don't understand much
> about the RCC. Stick around, you can afford to learn a few things.
+ Teach me.... puleeeeze!
>
> >+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
> >could have been.
> >+ I am in the here and now.
>
> And the past is the best predictor of the present and future.
+ Uh.... OK.
+ DO you think Noreiga will come back into power?
+ Do you feel the Palestinians will eventually wipe out the Jews?
+ Will a new race and culture come into America and give us all
cases of Smallpox?
+ Will MacDonalds come up with a new and improved "Big Mac?"
> You
> don't like the truth about your beloved RCC, so you call it "lies".
> When you're shown to be wrong,well, then, it's no longer important --
> you don't live in the past.
+ Your interpretation of history has no relevence to the truth.
+ I certainly don't wish to try to address your revisionist history.
googoothegood
wrote:
>On Jun 7, 3:32 pm, goo goo the good wrote:
<snip>>
>> >+ Please provide (what you think) is support that the Vatican
>> >> >has provided to some murdering dictator.
>>
>> Sodano was a great supporter of Pinochet, and later, when Pinochet was
>> arrested in Britain, as Vatican Seceratary of State Sodano worked to
>> prevent the extradition of Pinochet to Spain for trial on charges of
>> torture of political prisoners.
>> Oh, wait a minute -- the church would never get into politics or
>> support a murdering dictator.
>
>+ Prove that Sodano did this.
If you will Google "Sodano Pinochet" you'll get 19,000 results. A
couple are shown below. I challenge you to find a single one that
questions the historical fact that Sodano, acting as Secretary of
State at the Vatican, intervened on behalf of Sodano. Of course, in
Barkerworld, these would be 19.000 more liars.
http://www.oikos.org/pope2.htm
http://www.remember-chile.org.uk/declarations/romero.htm
>+ I thought it was Jimmy Hoffa.
That does not surprise me.
>> >+ I don't much care about past dictators.
>> >+ I am not a historian.
>>
>> Then don't say stupid things like "the church doesn't throw it's
>> weight behind a government". Why else does this little postage-stamp
>> state have a Secretary of State, and papal nuncios and other envoys
>> all over the world?
>
>+ Why do we have priests and bishops?
>+ Jesus gave the church a mission to spread the "Good News"
>to the world. We believe spreading the Gospel of the Lord is
>following these directions
But I asked about the Secretary of State and the other envoys. Why no
response?
>
>> For a person who says he's a catholic, you don't understand much
>> about the RCC. Stick around, you can afford to learn a few things.
>
>+ Teach me.... puleeeeze!
The monkey who eats the cards and claims to have won? Sure, why not?
But how do I give you a virtual banana as a reward?
>> >+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
>> >could have been.
>> >+ I am in the here and now.
>>
>> And the past is the best predictor of the present and future.
>
>+ Uh.... OK.
>+ DO you think Noreiga will come back into power?
>+ Do you feel the Palestinians will eventually wipe out the Jews?
>+ Will a new race and culture come into America and give us all
>cases of Smallpox?
>+ Will MacDonalds come up with a new and improved "Big Mac?"
I'll predict that the next time local priests and bishops work for
economic justice in third world countries, they will be put down by
the Vatican, who will see them as dupes of the socialists.
>> You
>> don't like the truth about your beloved RCC, so you call it "lies".
>> When you're shown to be wrong,well, then, it's no longer important --
>> you don't live in the past.
>
>+ Your interpretation of history has no relevence to the truth.
>+ I certainly don't wish to try to address your revisionist history.
What interpretation? Names and dates and other historical facts are
not interpretation -- but denial is pure denial. Ooooh and Ahhhh all
the more, speculate about the Big Mac -- that's fittimg. Your church
is a fraud and it's clear you are at a loss to say otherwise.
Patrick
> , Patrick <barker...@erinet.com> wrote:
>
> >> Sodano was a great supporter of Pinochet, and later, when Pinochet was
> >> arrested in Britain, as Vatican Seceratary of State Sodano worked to
> >> prevent the extradition of Pinochet to Spain for trial on charges of
> >> torture of political prisoners.
> >> Oh, wait a minute -- the church would never get into politics or
> >> support a murdering dictator.
>
> >+ Prove that Sodano did this.
>
> If you will Google "Sodano Pinochet" you'll get 19,000 results. A
> couple are shown below. I challenge you to find a single one that
> questions the historical fact that Sodano, acting as Secretary of
> State at the Vatican, intervened on behalf of Sodano. Of course, in
> Barkerworld, these would be 19.000 more liars.
+ If I recall, I have already admitted that Sordano was quite a
supporter
of Pinochet. I also stated that Sordano had ulterior motives. Just
because he tried to intervene on behalf of HIS friend, this does
not mean the entire church was behind his actions.
> >> >+ I don't much care about past dictators.
> >> >+ I am not a historian.
>
> >> Then don't say stupid things like "the church doesn't throw it's
> >> weight behind a government". Why else does this little postage-stamp
> >> state have a Secretary of State, and papal nuncios and other envoys
> >> all over the world?
>
> >+ Why do we have priests and bishops?
> >+ Jesus gave the church a mission to spread the "Good News"
> >to the world. We believe spreading the Gospel of the Lord is
> >following these directions
>
> But I asked about the Secretary of State and the other envoys. Why no
> response?
+ Because it is a silly question.
+ Vatican City is recognized by the entire world.
+ The pope travels to many places during his tenure.
+ You need to identify what a Secretary of State normally does,
and then argue about why one is not required by the Vatican.
+ I certainly do not wish to debate specifics on what different
bureaucrats are hanging around in Vatican City.
+ Many arcers already think Cardinal Law was elevated from
the mighty and powerful Oz in Boston to a parish priest in
the big and bad and powerful Vatican.
> >> For a person who says he's a catholic, you don't understand much
> >> about the RCC. Stick around, you can afford to learn a few things.
>
> >+ Teach me.... puleeeeze!
>
> The monkey who eats the cards and claims to have won? Sure, why not?
> But how do I give you a virtual banana as a reward?
+ How did you get yours?
>
> >> >+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
> >> >could have been.
> >> >+ I am in the here and now.
>
> >> And the past is the best predictor of the present and future.
>
> >+ Uh.... OK.
> >+ DO you think Noreiga will come back into power?
> >+ Do you feel the Palestinians will eventually wipe out the Jews?
> >+ Will a new race and culture come into America and give us all
> >cases of Smallpox?
> >+ Will MacDonalds come up with a new and improved "Big Mac?"
>
> I'll predict that the next time local priests and bishops work for
> economic justice in third world countries, they will be put down by
> the Vatican, who will see them as dupes of the socialists.
+ Oh?
+ So you approve of local priests getting involved in local politics?
+ I suppose you were for that Rwandan priest who helped in the
genocide in his country?
> >> You
> >> don't like the truth about your beloved RCC, so you call it "lies".
> >> When you're shown to be wrong,well, then, it's no longer important --
> >> you don't live in the past.
>
> >+ Your interpretation of history has no relevence to the truth.
> >+ I certainly don't wish to try to address your revisionist history.
>
> What interpretation? Names and dates and other historical facts are
> not interpretation -- but denial is pure denial. Ooooh and Ahhhh all
> the more, speculate about the Big Mac -- that's fittimg. Your church
> is a fraud and it's clear you are at a loss to say otherwise.
+ I refuse to argue your silly interpretations because it would
be like explaining time to a guppy.
AMBAN
says...
In other words Patrick knows Goo Goo the Good is so intelligent he can't
compete.
AMBAN
>
googoothegood
wrote:
>On Jun 8, 7:01 pm, goo goo the good wrote:
>> , Patrick <barker...@erinet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Sodano was a great supporter of Pinochet, and later, when Pinochet was
>> >> arrested in Britain, as Vatican Seceratary of State Sodano worked to
>> >> prevent the extradition of Pinochet to Spain for trial on charges of
>> >> torture of political prisoners.
>> >> Oh, wait a minute -- the church would never get into politics or
>> >> support a murdering dictator.
>>
>> >+ Prove that Sodano did this.
>>
>> If you will Google "Sodano Pinochet" you'll get 19,000 results. A
>> couple are shown below. I challenge you to find a single one that
>> questions the historical fact that Sodano, acting as Secretary of
>> State at the Vatican, intervened on behalf of Sodano. Of course, in
>> Barkerworld, these would be 19.000 more liars.
>
>+ If I recall, I have already admitted that Sordano was quite a
>supporter
>of Pinochet.
That one is straight out of Barkerworld. If you recall? -- two
paragraphs above you asked me to prove what Sodano did.
> I also stated that Sordano had ulterior motives. Just
>because he tried to intervene on behalf of HIS friend, this does
>not mean the entire church was behind his actions.
I'll go out on a limb and say he would not have done so without the
approval of the pope. I don't think it matters much if every priest,
nun, choir leader, or the guys who pass the basket on Sunday agreed or
disagreed. If the Vatican takes an action, that is what the RCC is
doing.
<snip>>> >>
>+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
>> >> >could have been.
>> >> >+ I am in the here and now.
>>
>> >> And the past is the best predictor of the present and future.
>>
>> >+ Uh.... OK.
>> >+ DO you think Noreiga will come back into power?
>> >+ Do you feel the Palestinians will eventually wipe out the Jews?
>> >+ Will a new race and culture come into America and give us all
>> >cases of Smallpox?
>> >+ Will MacDonalds come up with a new and improved "Big Mac?"
>>
>> I'll predict that the next time local priests and bishops work for
>> economic justice in third world countries, they will be put down by
>> the Vatican, who will see them as dupes of the socialists.
>
>+ Oh?
>+ So you approve of local priests getting involved in local politics?
In third world countries I approve of any bishop or priest who works
for economic justice, yes. Not many of them do since JPII and Ratso
took charge. As I've stated, the RCC is far more likely to align
itself with miltary rulers who protect the status quo.
>+ I suppose you were for that Rwandan priest who helped in the
>genocide in his country?
Father Seromba? What a guy -- some 2,000 people went into his church
seeking refuge from the genocide. But most were killed when he had the
church bulldozed. Afterwards, he then sent in militiamen to kill
survivors with machetes.
As you probably know, he was convicted by an international tribunal
and sent away for 15 years. Chances are, when he's released he'll
continue as a priest in the RCC. Maybe even get a position at the
Vatican.
sixtus
"Sergius Bacchus" <spag...@carbonara.com> wrote in message
news:4664f5c4$0$16685$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
<snip>
> That's your proof? How do you know for a fact that your God wrote the
> bible? And how do you know that the Creator of the Universe is
> biologically male? All it proves is that your beliefs are unsupported.
>
> There is at least as much written about Poseidon (or Santa Claus) as there
> is written about the Hebrew god, yet for no good reason you fall on the
> side of Yahweh. And you can't explain it.
When I was in graduate school, I took a scripture course in order to better
understand Christianity. The professor at the time made a salient point.
The statement, "The bible is the word of God." is something millions of
people believe as though God himself had told them. However, anyone who
believes that the bible is the word of God is putting his/her faith not in
God, but in the PERSON who told him/her that the bible was the word of God.
None of us heard this from God himself. We heard it from a person. It may
have been our parents who heard it from another person. It may have been a
nun in religion classes, or a CCD teacher or our local priest, who
themselves heard from other people. Thus, putting our faith in the person
who gave us that belief is part and parcel of our belief in the bible as the
word of God. The very fact that the bible is marketed as the word of God is
itself a human assertion.
Before I took that course, I mindlessly gave my thanks to God in response to
"This is the word of the Lord". Since then, though, I realized that few
cults claim that their scriptures are actually the word of God. They might
say that their writings are the words of men who were God's agents, but I
don't know that they are as specific as the RCC about that.
Because of my experiences with the bible and the Catholic faith, I agree
with you that the bible is definitely not a reliable proof for anything,
certainly not for the existence of God. The many errors, contradictions and
superstitions contained therein are enough to make anyone with an ounce of
wit squeemish about using it as a source of truth. It always baffles me
when hypocrites like Barker use the bible as if it were the unquestionably
ultimate authority for what ever untenable position they wish to have us
swallow. It baffles me that people can be so blindly gullable as to attempt
to spread such nonsense.
Patrick
> Patrick <barker...@erinet.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 8, 7:01 pm, goo goo the good wrote:
> >> , Patrick <barker...@erinet.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> Sodano was a great supporter of Pinochet, and later, when Pinochet was
> >> >> arrested in Britain, as Vatican Seceratary of State Sodano worked to
> >> >> prevent the extradition of Pinochet to Spain for trial on charges of
> >> >> torture of political prisoners.
> >> >> Oh, wait a minute -- the church would never get into politics or
> >> >> support a murdering dictator.
>
> >> >+ Prove that Sodano did this.
>
> >> If you will Google "Sodano Pinochet" you'll get 19,000 results. A
> >> couple are shown below. I challenge you to find a single one that
> >> questions the historical fact that Sodano, acting as Secretary of
> >> State at the Vatican, intervened on behalf of Sodano. Of course, in
> >> Barkerworld, these would be 19.000 more liars.
>
> >+ If I recall, I have already admitted that Sordano was quite a
> >supporter>of Pinochet.
>
> That one is straight out of Barkerworld. If you recall? -- two
> paragraphs above you asked me to prove what Sodano did.
+ Yeah, I know.
+ I sometimes forget which side of the story you want me to defend.
+ You must help me remember which side of the argument I am on.
+ I guess I'm getting old.
> > I also stated that Sordano had ulterior motives. Just
> >because he tried to intervene on behalf of HIS friend, this does
> >not mean the entire church was behind his actions.
>
> I'll go out on a limb and say he would not have done so without the
> approval of the pope. I don't think it matters much if every priest,
> nun, choir leader, or the guys who pass the basket on Sunday agreed or
> disagreed. If the Vatican takes an action, that is what the RCC is
> doing.
+ There are thousands of employees in the Vatican.
+ It is a bureaucracy like any other.
+ I believe some banker embezeled some dough a while ago
from the Vatican Bank. I'm afraid I didn't get my fair share.
So.... I refuse to acknowledge that what he did was sanctioned
by the RCC.
+ As for the pope, you can surmise anything you like.
+ That is what makes USENET such a great place.
> <snip>>> >>
> >+ I don't get off on thinking about how things
> >> >> >could have been.
> >> >> >+ I am in the here and now.
>
> >> >> And the past is the best predictor of the present and future.
>
> >> >+ Uh.... OK.
> >> >+ DO you think Noreiga will come back into power?
> >> >+ Do you feel the Palestinians will eventually wipe out the Jews?
> >> >+ Will a new race and culture come into America and give us all
> >> >cases of Smallpox?
> >> >+ Will MacDonalds come up with a new and improved "Big Mac?"
>
> >> I'll predict that the next time local priests and bishops work for
> >> economic justice in third world countries, they will be put down by
> >> the Vatican, who will see them as dupes of the socialists.
>
> >+ Oh?
> >+ So you approve of local priests getting involved in local politics?
>
> In third world countries I approve of any bishop or priest who works
> for economic justice, yes. Not many of them do since JPII and Ratso
> took charge. As I've stated, the RCC is far more likely to align
> itself with miltary rulers who protect the status quo.
+ The pope has repeatedly told local clergy to stay
out of politics. The RCC usually sides with any government
that does not call for revolution, murder, genocide, or other
sinful activities.
>
> >+ I suppose you were for that Rwandan priest who helped in the
> >genocide in his country?
>
> Father Seromba? What a guy -- some 2,000 people went into his church
> seeking refuge from the genocide. But most were killed when he had the
> church bulldozed. Afterwards, he then sent in militiamen to kill
> survivors with machetes.
+ Do you consider him a hero?
+ The church certainly doesn't.
> As you probably know, he was convicted by an international tribunal
> and sent away for 15 years. Chances are, when he's released he'll
> continue as a priest in the RCC. Maybe even get a position at the
> Vatican.-
+ Maybe.