A.A.'s 3rd Tradition
William M. Brown
I am scheduled to make a presentation on the 3rd Tradition this month,
and so far, I have been unable to find out when the word: "sincere" was
removed from the text of the Tradition. Can any of you be of help?
"Handsome" Bill (not bald Bill...)
Ron G
"William M. Brown" <cnbb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:lZWdnREDK9i...@comcast.com...
tradition during the early discussions and in the early drafts prior to
publication but in the end when the 12 & 12 was finally published in 1953
they (the writers of the 12 & 12) decided to not include the word sincere. I
have nothing factual to back this up other than the memories of a friend of
mine who has been sober close to 50 years now.
RonG
Charley O
What difference does it make ? Are you "presenting" to a bunch of lawyers ?
Robert McGregor
However;-)
Particularly since the AA website has shunted the long form Traditions from
contemporary to archival pertinence, http://tinyurl.com/ranyf an amusing
aspect of AA's "Traditions" is the dishonesty that generally gurgles to the
surface on mention of recovered alcoholics being precluded from A.A.
membership by that same Tradition Three.
Perhaps a presentation questioning oldtimers honesty rather than newcomers
sincerity may be a bit more exciting.
Bob
William M. Brown
"Charley O" <gate1038...@att.net> wrote in message
news:ZzZZf.13$Im...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
appears to be the only change ever made to the Traditions, and I personally
am pleased the work "honest" was deleted as I believe in inclusivity - and
*yes*, there are lawyers that may be in attendance. I am on a panel
discussion of the Traditions to be presented to anybody who happens to be in
attendance, AA members or lawyers or not!
Handsome Bill
William M. Brown
"Ron G" <r...@network12.com> wrote in message
news:oLYZf.3998$s%6.877@dukeread02...
would be a long, apparently complicated process, I thought that change would
have been "less casual" than that..
Handsome Bill
William M. Brown
"Robert McGregor" <robert_...@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:443876ca$0$510$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
presentation on a Traditions Panel. I am in no position to question
anybody's honesty or sincerity since I am "only" a member of AA who managed
to stay sober today with the help of God and the fellowship.
Handsome Bill (my critics tell me if I stay around long enough, I may get
"honest" enough to drop the "Handsome" and accept my wide part..)
Robert McGregor
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_...@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:443876ca$0$510$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> Thanks for the insight on the Preamble, Bob. I was asked to do a
> presentation on a Traditions Panel.
Obviously I've met my match in the pedantry department. Here' s what araa's
"original" jimb;-) clarified for us (in the same thread btw) :-
"The 1st edition of the BB had the statement "The only requirement for
membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. (April,39)
The "long form" of the traditions was published in the GV in January 46
and remains as it is today.
In November 1949, the Traditions were presented in the AA Grapevine in the
"short form" and the 3rd tradition read "The only requirement for membership
is a desire to stop drinking." This is unchanged. " http://tinyurl.com/s4chf
Bob
Starvin'Marv
I love drinking, I love alcohol, I love the feeling it gives me. My
desire to quit drinking is imposed upon me because I can no longer
tolerate the effects. Show me an alcoholic that would not love to
embrace the habit again if they could embibe "socially" without
terrible consequences.
Robert McGregor
"Starvin'Marv" <mar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144563145.3...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> If I am truly "honest" with myself, I have no desire to quit drinking.
> I love drinking, I love alcohol, I love the feeling it gives me. My
> desire to quit drinking is imposed upon me because I can no longer
> tolerate the effects.
That's arguably why you've only ever paused your drinking, and never
genuinely stopped.
>
> Show me an alcoholic that would not love to
> embrace the habit again if they could embibe "socially" without
> terrible consequences.
>
Certainly me, and probably any other real alcoholic who has actually been
all the way to rock bottom where, even with alcohol, good feelings have
morphed into utter hopelessness; but finding, taking, and nurturing a
path to reality, where good feelings can be integral with accomplishments.
Sometimes, regardless of other outcomes, good feelings can be simply a
serendipitous result of effort.
Thus, as a result of experience, this agnostic distrusts any feelings
attributed to the grace of God, be that God Bachus, or not!
PS: Did I merit the celebrated Darren award for sentence structure, too?
Bob
Charley O
Well let's see now - is this part of a CPC or PI effort ? - or are you a
lone wolf trying to do something on your own ? - or perhaps some well
meaning worker in the field who is trying to explain something they only
have an intellectual understanding of ? In any case you might do well to
remember that it is the "spirit" of the Traditions that important - they are
not contracts.
"A code of Traditions could not, of course, ever become rule or law. But it
might act as a guide for Trustees, Headquarters people, and especially for
AA groups with growing pains. ... The Traditions of AA were first
published in the so-called "long form" in the Grapevine of May 1946" -
AACOA p203.
"The fundamental for AA memebership could thus never be under the control of
any other person. Nor need it - nor could it - even be under the complete
control of the alcoholic, for the "honest desire to stop drinking" could
surely co-exist with a desire to drink ... Yet even asking this limited
control proved in AA's continuing experience to be asking too much. The
qualification "honest" or "sincere" was dropped in 1949, at the time of the
first publication of the "short form" of the AA Traditions." "Not God",
p106
stuart
.au...
No Bob, you get the "Darwin" award. Your sentence structure appears derived
from miiddle English. This grammatical style conveys convoluted ideas with
unclear associations The modern simpleton who is reading it might suppose
that in Aussieland, when a grown-up wants to impress others with erudite
literary style, they revert to recalling prose from their schoolboy days.
After all, when the east Londoners were hoofed out of Britain, the books
they took with them were few in number and low-brow in content, I'm sure.
>
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David M
> Thanks, Ron. I *do* appreciate your input. Being that
changing
> a Tradition would be a long, apparently complicated process,
I
> thought that change would have been "less casual" than that..
Probably not nearly as long and complicated then as it would be
now. At first any ultimately successful organization is run by
people who simply want to accomplish something -- like saving
drunks -- using whatever works. Then, seemingly inevitably,
the bureaucrats take over and any changes become really long
and really complicated.
William M. Brown
Thank you for expressing your opinions regarding my possible motivation
for researching the 3rd Tradition and the additional information you have
provided. I have "Not God", but it has been a long time since I read it.
I have been sober & active in AA for many years, and am currently
involved in carrying the AA message into local jails & state prisons as a
member of our District's Corrections Committee. I have also been chair
person of our local District's PI & CPC Committees in the past. Our local
AA District has another committee, probably 'anti-Traditional' to the 'AA
Police', and that committee occasionally sponsors dances as we have no local
'dry'/Alano club. Prior to the dances or picnics or whatever, that
Activities Committee will have a local AA speaker share their experience,
strength & hope or in this instance they are sponsoring a Traditions Panel.
I was asked by the chairman of that committee to speak on the 3rd Tradition.
My understanding of the alleged 'alcoholic personality' is that we tend
to be perfectionists, hence my search for the "lost" *sincere* desire..
Thanks again.
Handsome Bill
Charley O
Thanks for qualifying.
>Our local
> AA District has another committee, probably 'anti-Traditional' to the 'AA
> Police', and that committee occasionally sponsors dances as we have no
> local 'dry'/Alano club. Prior to the dances or picnics or whatever,
OMG - a fine group to "teach" Traditions. <chuckle>
> that Activities Committee will have a local AA speaker share their
> experience, strength & hope or in this instance they are sponsoring a
> Traditions Panel. I was asked by the chairman of that committee to speak
> on the 3rd Tradition.
> My understanding of the alleged 'alcoholic personality' is that we tend
> to be perfectionists, hence my search for the "lost" *sincere* desire..
> Thanks again.
> Handsome Bill
You must be a handsome devil to get a gig like that. I'd like to hear about
your experience with meetings behind the walls. I've done a few of those
myself.
Ace Renegade
"William M. Brown" <cnbb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> My understanding of the alleged 'alcoholic personality' is that we tend
>to be perfectionists, hence my search for the "lost" *sincere* desire..
When I first read you, I considered you had confused, "honest desire to
stop drinking," with sincere. Since I've seen alcoholics relying on memory
fuck a lot of shit up in the last 25 years, I'm inclined to nudge you toward
Chuck's suggestions.
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"When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!" JPB
Ace Renegade
"Starvin'Marv" <mar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>tolerate the effects. Show me an alcoholic that would not love to
>embrace the habit again if they could embibe "socially" without
>terrible consequences.
That would be me. The spiritual ecstacies of continued step work in the
program of Alcoholics Anonymous, as offered in the text of the same name,
are far more desireable to me now than a mere drink could ever be.
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Ace Renegade
"stuart" <fr...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Robert McGregor <robert_...@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>>
>> PS: Did I merit the celebrated Darren award for sentence structure, too?
>
>No Bob, you get the "Darwin" award. Your sentence structure appears derived
>from miiddle English. This grammatical style conveys convoluted ideas with
>unclear associations The modern simpleton who is reading it might suppose
>that in Aussieland, when a grown-up wants to impress others with erudite
>literary style, they revert to recalling prose from their schoolboy days.
>After all, when the east Londoners were hoofed out of Britain, the books
>they took with them were few in number and low-brow in content, I'm sure.
You both need to read some Hemingway. There is no substitute in English
for, "hills like white elephants," Anglo-Saxon chop-chop. Latinate at
first blush may seem erudite, albeit, terse clarity attracts the majority
of readers of this language.
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Charley O
"Ace Renegade" <anon...@nyx.nyx.net> wrote in message
news:11446185...@irys.nyx.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> "William M. Brown" <cnbb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> My understanding of the alleged 'alcoholic personality' is that we
>> tend
>>to be perfectionists, hence my search for the "lost" *sincere* desire..
>
> When I first read you, I considered you had confused, "honest desire to
> stop drinking," with sincere. Since I've seen alcoholics relying on
> memory
> fuck a lot of shit up in the last 25 years, I'm inclined to nudge you
> toward
> Chuck's suggestions.
>
Not sure what you mean - but both words were used in one printing of the
Traditions or another.
Positively 62nd Street
"Starvin'Marv" <mar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144563145.3...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
That's why it says 'stop' drinking as opposed to 'quit' drinking. I'd say
that few alkies, especially while still drinking, can handle the concept of
quitting, even if they've tried to do just that a hundred times. Stopping...
or putting it on hold for today or right now... is something we can grasp.
There is always tomorrow if I want it and so make that decision when I
consider it again at that point.
I'd have to ask Miss Semantics (who I am glad to see post) for the
definitive on this one... but for me there is a huge difference. I say all
the time that I haven't had a drink in 24 years and still have not quit...
it's a today thing for me.
--
Nothing is sure
nothing is pure
and no matter who we think we are.
everyone gets his chance to be
nothing.
Bruce Cockburn
Robert McGregor
"Positively 62nd Street" <not_l...@all.notatall> wrote in message
news:-NydnaY2oL6...@giganews.com...
>
>
> That's why it says 'stop' drinking as opposed to 'quit' drinking. I'd say
> that few alkies, especially while still drinking, can handle the concept
> of quitting, even if they've tried to do just that a hundred times.
> Stopping... or putting it on hold for today or right now... is something
> we can grasp. There is always tomorrow if I want it and so make that
> decision when I consider it again at that point.
Then, as opposed to quit/stop, "it" should say *paused* drinking, which is
"statistically" the AA way anyway.
Bob
Joe Jared
Sure. I don't think it matters. Usually we get beaten to the sweet state
of reasonableness and probably wouldn't understand the word in the first
place. Don't let ego get in the way of reading just the black part of
what's written.
--
Listed? You must be joking http://relays.osirusoft.com
Pallorium V. Jared ruling http://www.oretek.com/lawsuite/ruling.pdf
http://www.oretek.com/lawsuite/