STEP TEN
rosie read and post
promptly admitted it.
"This odd trait of mind and emotion, this perverse wish to hide a
bad motive underneath a good one, permeates human affairs from top to
bottom. This subtle and elusive kind of self-righteousness can underlie
the smallest act or thought. Learning daily to spot, admit, and correct
these flaws is the essence of character-building and good living."
c. 1952, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, pages 94-95
************************************************************************
********
Kai
> STEP TEN: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
> promptly admitted it.
>
> "This odd trait of mind and emotion, this perverse wish to hide a
> bad motive underneath a good one, permeates human affairs from top to
> bottom. This subtle and elusive kind of self-righteousness can
> underlie the smallest act or thought. Learning daily to spot, admit,
> and correct these flaws is the essence of character-building and good
> living."
>
> c. 1952, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, pages 94-95
My irony meter just exploded. Loudly. And my bogometer pinned too.
Kai
JB
"Kai" <sob...@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message news:bnlo60$95f$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
Hi Kai,
For several days, I've been thinking about these personal inventories. Today, I do not see how
anyone - and I mean *anyone* - who does not have regrets about things they've said or done would
think it necessary to make amends for them. I know I wouldn't :^))
Yours
JB
Kai
>
> For several days, I've been thinking about these personal
> inventories. Today, I do not see how anyone - and I mean *anyone* -
> who does not have regrets about things they've said or done would
> think it necessary to make amends for them. I know I wouldn't :^))
Well, what is there to amend if no harm was done?
Kai
Moonraker
"rosie read and post" <readandpo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Motnb.77689$%C5.4...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
when we were wrong, promptly changed the subject and found someone else to
blame."
Virtualoso
<sob...@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote:
I think amend is a fairly neutral word, isn't it? I mean, things can
also be amended as improvements or enhancement or the like, too,
without it necessarily being a "fix" for something wrong.
There's the idea of amending to relieve regret. Or amending to remedy a
harm (according to whom?). Or righting a wrong, possibly whether or not
there's regret or harm. But can there be amending just to because it's
worthwhile?
JB
"Kai" <sob...@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message news:bnlq00$c81$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
Kai,
I don't think that people always agree on what ought to be apologised for. For example, if I
verbally and physically abused you and stole all your money because I thought you deserved such
treatment after doing the same to me, I might never think it necessary to apologise. You might
think otherwise :^)). Likewise, you might not think it necessary to apologise to me for what you'd
done to me. I might think otherwise :^)
As this is the first time that I've had the chance to discuss my thoughts with anyone, I'm not
speaking with confidence. I'd like to hear others' views..
Yours
JB.
JB
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message news:281020030536516169%virtu...@dot.com...
I hadn't thought of it like that. I can immediately see how this interpretation could lead someone
to change
the way they think, maybe, and behave. It therefore fits nicely with my current thinking about what
AA's Twelve Step programme is
designed to do Thank you.
JB
Virtualoso
<JBC...@coldman.com> wrote:
One of the more important angles struck me as the difference between
apologizing and amends. And the reason and basis for that difference.
Virtualoso
<JBC...@coldman.com> wrote:
You're welcome.
I had a falling out thing with a relative, of some years' standing. We
both had just turned our backs on one another and had no contact.
I'd gotten angry and said/did some things that I realized would have
been better not done, and would have rathered that I'd handled some of
it otherwise, at the time. But it was also true that they'd done some
real offensive and personally adverse things toward me, as well.
After a point, it was irrelevent to even attempt to tally the stuff,
nor to map out who did just what "first" or who might therefore
"deserve" just what. It simply was all messy and unfortunate. And quite
a bit of time had gone by.
Finally, instead of mulling about it any further, I also realized that
I had just not yet simply made an effort to contact them and extend
whatever good will I could muster. So I did. It included a sincere
apology for my own offenses and my offering of genuine goodwill,
inviting.
As it turned out, they did appreciate that. Even offered some extent of
similar amending of their own former stance. But too much time had gone
by to strike up much else and they declined further pursuit. That was
okay, too. I'd done the right thing, we'd both benefitted from it and
at least collaborated in revising the matter mutually to that extent
and can now both leave it be, peacably.
Craig S.
If I've done something to get on somebody's bad side, it's generally pretty
easy to spot it in them. But what I consider harms and what others consider
harms sometimes don't coincide. Maybe I think a person is being "overly
sensitive." But who am I to judge that? It's usually easier to simply
apologize if in doubt than to bear the burden of self-righteousness.
rosie read and post
news:281020030536516169%virtu...@dot.com...
> There's the idea of amending to relieve regret. Or amending to remedy
a
> harm (according to whom?). Or righting a wrong, possibly whether or
not
> there's regret or harm. But can there be amending just to because it's
> worthwhile?
i believe you are quite right virt.
amending behavior (for me using a killfile for the rest of the month )
to stop myself from arguing with some folks, and cluttering up these
newsgroups has been done, and i believe that it IS WORTHWHILE to the
group, and the possible still suffering alcoholic.
as you said, i have no regret about my statements, to some of these
malcontents.
rosie
JB
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message news:281020030644531088%virtu...@dot.com...
Hi Virt (do you mind me shortening your name ?),
Until I read your earlier post I'd not thought about there being any difference between apologising
and making amends. I'm wiser now and happy to be so :))
Best regards
JB
Tommy
"JB" <> I hadn't thought of it like that. I can immediately see how this
interpretation could lead someone
> to change
> the way they think, maybe, and behave. It therefore fits nicely with my
current thinking about what
> AA's Twelve Step programme is
> designed to do Thank you.
>
> JB
The 'danger' is making amends to make 'you' feel better because it appears
the right thing to do. Personally, I believe the time lag in making amends
is to allow me to become willing to be truly sorry for what I've done.
Its all very well in early sobriety to make a list of those we've
harmed/wronged, but are we really sorry because we regret it - and not
because we MUST clean house.
Seems a somewhat thick line to me
Cheers
Tommy
JB
"Tommy" <Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote in message
news:bnm7bu$138515$1...@ID-49277.news.uni-berlin.de...
I've behaved over the years. At this time, I have no desire to make peace with some of those with
whom I am no longer on friendly terms. The first move would have to come from me and I can't do
this while I've still painful memories of the part they played in breaking up our relationship.
Yours
JB
Robert McGregor
"JB" <JBC...@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bnltal$i6h$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Given that step 10 is not step four, given we understand taking the steps to
be a growth process, given step four is not about amends at all, I think if
I had pre-determined my step nine on the strength of my awareness at step
four, I would have been just as screwed up at my step 10, as I was at step
one;-)
Bob
JB
> > In article <bnlq00$c81$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>, Kai
> > <sob...@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think amend is a fairly neutral word, isn't it? I mean, things can
> > also be amended as improvements or enhancement or the like, too,
> > without it necessarily being a "fix" for something wrong.
> >
> > There's the idea of amending to relieve regret. Or amending to remedy a
> > harm (according to whom?). Or righting a wrong, possibly whether or not
> > there's regret or harm. But can there be amending just to because it's
> > worthwhile?
Virt,
I've thought more about your post and only now am I beginning to think that I have understood what
you said. This is where I'm now at with my understanding of the word "amend" Comments welcome:
"Amend"
1. - in the sense of "making an improvement" - means to me, in the context of recovering from
alcoholism, changing myself so that I no longer want to drink; can accept life on its terms and
enjoy my sobriety.
2. - in the sense of relieving regret - means either apologising for things I've said and done and
really meaning it or stopping regretting having not done or said certain things.
3. - in the sense of righting a wrong - means either apologising and really meaning it and/or
finding some other way of trying to put things right..
4. - in the sense of amending just because it's worthwhile. In the past, in order to try to restore
peace, I've sometimes apologised for being in the wrong and also when I've not been in the wrong.
If I think that I should not be the only one apologising, I have harboured resentments against the
person to whom I've apologised. If the relationship has continued, I've not been an ease in it and
further down the line, that resentment surfaces and causes further problems in the relationship.
Although I do not think that No 4 is good for me, at this time, I cannot think of a better way to
handle such situations. Comments welcome.
Best regards
JB
Tommy
"JB" in the relationship.
>
> Although I do not think that No 4 is good for me, at this time, I cannot
think of a better way to
> handle such situations. Comments welcome.
>
> Best regards
>
> JB
"In the relationship" - you are distancing yourself by calling 'it' a
relationship.
Think about it. Name the person, not to me, but to yourself. Then name
your part in the 'wrongs'. I find it difficult labelling a mishappening,
or a misunderstanding as a 'wrong'. Does every incident wherein two people
disagree have to be a 'wrong' on one side or another. Or is that our
defensive perception, our mechanism for finding a fault, either within
ourselves or others. Victims curse huh:-)
Short version ?
Do the thing right - or - do the right thing
(And you can do both you know :-)
Cheers
Tommy
Matt
shit. If I didn't have any money, I didn't get high :(
Matt
"Kai" <sob...@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message
news:bnlq00$c81$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
Tom G.
> a
> > harm (according to whom?). Or righting a wrong, possibly whether or
> not
> > there's regret or harm. But can there be amending just to because it's
> > worthwhile?
>
>
> i believe you are quite right virt.
> amending behavior (for me using a killfile for the rest of the month )
> to stop myself from arguing with some folks, and cluttering up these
> newsgroups has been done, and i believe that it IS WORTHWHILE to the
> group, and the possible still suffering alcoholic.
> as you said, i have no regret about my statements, to some of these
> malcontents.
>
>
> rosie
Oh hell, Rosie must have me killfiled...:O) I haven't
been called a malcontent for weeks now... So, Rosie's
version of an amends is ignorin' the person she possibly
offended...?? Acceptin' no blame for herself, just ignoring
the situation... I don't think it's supposed to be done that
way, what the hell's the point...??
Tom
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Moonraker
"Tom G." <the...@dipshit.com> wrote in message
news:WJCnb.121627$k74.69441@lakeread05...
>
> Oh hell, Rosie must have me killfiled...:O) I haven't
> been called a malcontent for weeks now... So, Rosie's
> version of an amends is ignorin' the person she possibly
> offended...?? Acceptin' no blame for herself, just ignoring
> the situation... I don't think it's supposed to be done that
> way, what the hell's the point...??
>
> Tom
>
When you are all wrapped up in your own self-important, arrogant,
delusionary perfection, one would never need to make any amends, right?
It's hard to be humble when you are perfect in every way, as the old CW song
goes.
Robert McGregor
> "Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message
> news:281020030536516169%virtu...@dot.com...
>
>
> > There's the idea of amending to relieve regret. Or amending to remedy
> a
> > harm (according to whom?). Or righting a wrong, possibly whether or
> not
> > there's regret or harm. But can there be amending just to because it's
> > worthwhile?
>
>
> i believe you are quite right virt.
> amending behavior (for me using a killfile for the rest of the month )
> to stop myself from arguing with some folks, and cluttering up these
> newsgroups has been done, and i believe that it IS WORTHWHILE to the
> group, and the possible still suffering alcoholic.
> as you said, i have no regret about my statements, to some of these
> malcontents.
>
>
> rosie
>
If the sanctimonious slut really believed her silence was for the benefit of
the possible still suffering alcoholic, why would she promise to limit her
much vaunted kill file for merely the rest of the month?
Bob
"rosie readandpost" <reada...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:okqGa.91039$jT4.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>NO, i don't pray for those who suffer to "get what they
> deserve"................................
> my god!
Virtualoso
<JBC...@coldman.com> wrote:
Well, looks to me that you're working with it. Best to you with all
that.
I came to find that my present was seeming composed of a mix of what I
did do, and what I didn't do. By at least making efforts to remix what
seemed possible and worth the while, I was able to set some things
right-er and benefit others and, sometimes, myself. And now the present
continues to domino forward to later. Such is life. My life, that is.
Some of the trickiest stuff is the stuff mostly about what we "feel
about" various things, eh? And just how that matters or affects what we
actually say and do, regardless. Especially if entertaining notions
about "honesty" or its conceptual twin: "emotional honesty," which can
be a curious idea, particularly in practice.
Mark Warner
> "Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote
>>
>> One of the more important angles struck me as the difference between
>> apologizing and amends. And the reason and basis for that difference.
>
> difference between apologising and making amends. I'm wiser now and
> happy to be so :))
Buddy has ruled on this. 'Amends' in AA parlance is equivalent to
apology. End of discussion. Don't need to change anything, don't need to
make restitution, none of that shit.
You know what they say... sometimes doin' it the AA way *is* the easier,
softer way.
--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying
rosie read and post
> Buddy has ruled on this. 'Amends' in AA parlance is equivalent to
> apology. End of discussion. Don't need to change anything, don't need
to
> make restitution, none of that shit.
>
> You know what they say... sometimes doin' it the AA way *is* the
easier,
> softer way.
>
> --
> Mark Warner
sorry but i like my sponsors idea better.................AMENDS mean TO
REPAIR.........................(my side of the bridge)
Shawster
"Mark Warner" <mhwarner.i...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:bnn78d$12vtll$1...@ID-49293.news.uni-berlin.de...
I don't know buddy. he's wrong. amends in the big book include paying back
debtors, even if it is only a buck a month.
Mikey
"> I don't know buddy. he's wrong. amends in the big book include paying
back
> debtors, even if it is only a buck a month.
Some guy wrote a book, and you declare it is the last word??
That's pretty cool. I choose J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" to set the rules
for my life.
Can you tell me what qualifies Bill Wilson's writings to base my life on?
Bill Wilson wrote the "Big Book". What makes him the authority? I think I
will write my own book. Oh, wait, I better put that off until I have 3 years
of not drinking under my belt. Then, I am qualified to write a book telling
alcoholics how to live their lives. Yeah, that's it, after I don't drink for
3 years I can write a book that is the final word on how to stay sober.....
....sigh....
Have a great day, enjoy whatever sobriety you have. And, if you are still
struggling, I wish you all the best.
--Mikey--
Shawster
"Mikey" <gu...@hobo.net> wrote in message
news:eFGnb.1420$DL6.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
> "> I don't know buddy. he's wrong. amends in the big book include paying
> back
> > debtors, even if it is only a buck a month.
>
> Some guy wrote a book, and you declare it is the last word??
some guy?? I declared what?? I know, you are just mad because you can't
read.
>
> That's pretty cool. I choose J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" to set the
rules
> for my life.
>
> Can you tell me what qualifies Bill Wilson's writings to base my life on?
because it works...
instead of the hobbit, why not try rick warren's "Purpose driven life" or
any other book.
Socrates, aristotle, lao tsu, shoot, sorry, I'm a bit sleepy or else I'd
write an index to the library for you.
Any reason you are so biased against a book?
> Bill Wilson wrote the "Big Book". What makes him the authority?
well, he tried something, it worked. He shared it, it worked for more
people. That would be the definition for "authority"
I think I
> will write my own book. Oh, wait, I better put that off until I have 3
years
> of not drinking under my belt. Then, I am qualified to write a book
telling
> alcoholics how to live their lives. Yeah, that's it, after I don't drink
for
> 3 years I can write a book that is the final word on how to stay
sober.....
and if it works, and other people try it, and it works, then it goes round
the world and works for millions... then some know it all can bash you for
no apparent reason.
>
> ....sigh....
>
> Have a great day, enjoy whatever sobriety you have. And, if you are still
> struggling, I wish you all the best.
by taking away my book?
I really have to watch my headers and not croospost.
goodbye
>
> --Mikey--
>
>
>
Mikey
"Shawster" <shaw...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ZdHnb.69371$Go5.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "Mikey" <gu...@hobo.net> wrote in message
> news:eFGnb.1420$DL6.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >
> > "> I don't know buddy. he's wrong. amends in the big book include
paying
> > back
> > > debtors, even if it is only a buck a month.
> >
> > Some guy wrote a book, and you declare it is the last word??
>
> some guy?? I declared what?? I know, you are just mad because you can't
> read.
Well, if I could not read, then I could not very well be posting here, could
I?
> >
> > That's pretty cool. I choose J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" to set the
> rules
> > for my life.
> >
> > Can you tell me what qualifies Bill Wilson's writings to base my life
on?
>
> because it works...
Who does it work for? Please provide me with something other than anecdotal
scribblings that "it" works.
>
> instead of the hobbit, why not try rick warren's "Purpose driven life" or
> any other book.
EXACTLY!! We agree! Any book at all might work just as well!
>
> Socrates, aristotle, lao tsu, shoot, sorry, I'm a bit sleepy or else I'd
> write an index to the library for you.
You are ranting now. Oh, you are sleepy. I'll forgive the rantings about
library indices for now.
> Any reason you are so biased against a book?
Yes. Because it was written by a stark raving mad lunatic.
>
> > Bill Wilson wrote the "Big Book". What makes him the authority?
>
> well, he tried something, it worked. He shared it, it worked for more
> people. That would be the definition for "authority"
Piss poor. It did not work at all (shall I quote Bill's own written words to
back that up, or are you sufficiently educated in the history of AA and Bill
Wilson to be on the same "beam" as me?). Besides, my Webster's Dictionary
does NOT include Bill Wilson's writings as a definition of authority.
>
> I think I
> > will write my own book. Oh, wait, I better put that off until I have 3
> years
> > of not drinking under my belt. Then, I am qualified to write a book
> telling
> > alcoholics how to live their lives. Yeah, that's it, after I don't drink
> for
> > 3 years I can write a book that is the final word on how to stay
> sober.....
>
> and if it works, and other people try it, and it works, then it goes round
> the world and works for millions... then some know it all can bash you for
> no apparent reason.
No apparent reason other than it is nothing more than the writing of a
friggin' lunatic! Oh, and when I write my book, I will be sure to mention
you as one of those that could not put forth "rigorous honesty".
>
> by taking away my book?
I'm not taking away your precious book. It is still right there for you to
read.
>
> I really have to watch my headers and not croospost.
Huh?? What are you talking about??
Ah, have a swell evening anyway. Just don't drink, buddy.
--Mikey--
Virtualoso
<garyexx...@nadaswbell.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:07:37 -0500, "Mark Warner"
> <mhwarner.i...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Buddy has ruled on this. 'Amends' in AA parlance is equivalent to
> >apology. End of discussion. Don't need to change anything, don't need to
> >make restitution, none of that shit.
> >
> Obviously a final authority is needed, since the BB doesn't have
> clarity. Simple, but not clear. It would appear that dictionaries
> may have been ruled out as a source of definition. I noticed, no one
> cited the dictionary. The BB needs to be taken as it is written,
> which is exactly why study groups are formed to find out what various
> people thinks the BB means. And that's why Thumpers exist to not only
> quote it but to interpret it exactly as its written.
>
> That's a clear picture, isn't it?
Gosh. You figure they've got something wrong with that?
Virtualoso
<gu...@hobo.net> wrote:
> Can you tell me what qualifies Bill Wilson's writings to base my life on?
What do you base your life on?
Mikey
do have an answer, by the way, so make yours count.
Hint: I do NOT base my life on anything that some crazy drunk guy wrote.
Have a great evening, I am going to sleep now.
Don't drink!!
--Mikey--
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message
news:281020032110199280%virtu...@dot.com...
Virtualoso
<gu...@hobo.net> wrote:
> "Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message
> news:281020032110199280%virtu...@dot.com...
> > In article <eFGnb.1420$DL6.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, Mikey
> > <gu...@hobo.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Can you tell me what qualifies Bill Wilson's writings to base my life
> on?
> >
> > What do you base your life on?
> I asked you first. You answer my question, and then I will answer yours. I
> do have an answer, by the way, so make yours count.
>
> Hint: I do NOT base my life on anything that some crazy drunk guy wrote.
And I don't base my posting on what some crazy guy directs.
Shawster
> > >
> > > "> I don't know buddy. he's wrong. amends in the big book include
> paying
> > > back
> > > > debtors, even if it is only a buck a month.
> > >
> > > Some guy wrote a book, and you declare it is the last word??
> >
> > some guy?? I declared what?? I know, you are just mad because you can't
> > read.
>
> Well, if I could not read, then I could not very well be posting here,
could
> I?
oh, your logic is soooooo logical. gosh, got me there. ow.
there is more to reading than moving your lips. you seem to be seening words
that aren't there. do try to stick to the black parts of the words.
>
>
> > >
> > > That's pretty cool. I choose J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" to set the
> > rules
> > > for my life.
> > >
> > > Can you tell me what qualifies Bill Wilson's writings to base my life
> on?
> >
> > because it works...
>
> Who does it work for? Please provide me with something other than
anecdotal
> scribblings that "it" works.
take the quotes off, it's not "it" it is it. If I wrote a book about fixing
a car, and you followed it, and fixed your car... would it matter whether I
was a recovering drunk or not? nope.
> >
> > instead of the hobbit, why not try rick warren's "Purpose driven life"
or
> > any other book.
>
> EXACTLY!! We agree! Any book at all might work just as well!
no, dipshit we don't agree. that is a specific book, not any book. are you
sure you can read?
he library for you.
>
> You are ranting now. Oh, you are sleepy. I'll forgive the rantings about
> library indices for now.
whatever dipshit
>
> > Any reason you are so biased against a book?
>
> Yes. Because it was written by a stark raving mad lunatic.
so were a lot of good books. I bet you just love poe and Neitzche.
> >
> > > Bill Wilson wrote the "Big Book". What makes him the authority?
> >
> > well, he tried something, it worked. He shared it, it worked for more
> > people. That would be the definition for "authority"
>
> Piss poor. It did not work at all (shall I quote Bill's own written words
to
> back that up, or are you sufficiently educated in the history of AA and
Bill
> Wilson to be on the same "beam" as me?). Besides, my Webster's Dictionary
> does NOT include Bill Wilson's writings as a definition of authority.
again, it worked for me, so therefore it works. basic logic. waaay over
your head though. what does your dictionary define authority as? hint, it's
in the root *author*
> >
> > I think I
> > > will write my own book. Oh, wait, I better put that off until I have 3
> > years
> > > of not drinking under my belt. Then, I am qualified to write a book
> > telling
> > > alcoholics how to live their lives. Yeah, that's it, after I don't
drink
> > for
> > > 3 years I can write a book that is the final word on how to stay
> > sober.....
> >
> > and if it works, and other people try it, and it works, then it goes
round
> > the world and works for millions... then some know it all can bash you
for
> > no apparent reason.
>
> No apparent reason other than it is nothing more than the writing of a
> friggin' lunatic! Oh, and when I write my book, I will be sure to mention
> you as one of those that could not put forth "rigorous honesty".
as spoken by the authoring lunatic.
>
>
> >
> > by taking away my book?
>
> I'm not taking away your precious book. It is still right there for you to
> read.
> >
> > I really have to watch my headers and not croospost.
>
> Huh?? What are you talking about??
crossposting. that is where a message goes to more than one newsgroup at a
time. do slow down a bit so that your lips can catch up to your eyes. or
just put down the keyboard and put on your tin foil helmet.
>
> Ah, have a swell evening anyway. Just don't drink, buddy.
I will, but it won't be because you told me not to.
>
> --Mikey--
>
>
>
>
Blue Moon
<Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
>The 'danger' is making amends to make 'you' feel better because it appears
>the right thing to do. Personally, I believe the time lag in making amends
>is to allow me to become willing to be truly sorry for what I've done.
That, and in my experience/observation it's generally not a good idea
to try making amends too quickly whilst another person is still
feeling raw anger.
Also, do I have any expectations regarding the outcome?
Getting to understand expectations is perhaps part of why Step 8 is
where it is. I used to drink on things not turning out as I thought
they should.
>Its all very well in early sobriety to make a list of those we've
>harmed/wronged, but are we really sorry because we regret it - and not
>because we MUST clean house.
>Seems a somewhat thick line to me
I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
<readandpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>i believe you are quite right virt.
>amending behavior (for me using a killfile for the rest of the month )
>to stop myself from arguing with some folks, and cluttering up these
>newsgroups has been done, and i believe that it IS WORTHWHILE to the
>group, and the possible still suffering alcoholic.
>as you said, i have no regret about my statements, to some of these
>malcontents.
Some confusion between Steps 7 and 9?
For me, Step 7 is about righting old behaviour (which can include not
indulging arguments).
Step 9 is about correcting my own past wrongs, where appropriate.
--
Blue Moon
Kai
>
> I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
>
> 1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
Seconded. And here in between the crucial part "and in so doing".
> 2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
I most certainly wasn't willing to make amends to some people. The
very thought of the humiliation and embarrassment, fear of physical
attack in some case, seemed very unpleasant to put it mildly. The act
of making the list, and all the thinking, memory digging, sweating of
shame and looking at the events from different angles involved in the
process changed my way of thinking.
I remember thinking that what if a person, say, stoned my kitchen
window to pieces every morning for a year or so. Then this person
suddenly stopped the activity. Would I think the person has somehow
'made amends' to me by simply stopping it? Naw, I'd have probably been
happy he'd stopped, but I'd still have thought he's a jerk and hated
his guts for what he did. But if he was to come to my door one day, to
explain how he had been mentally ill, how he was now much better,
asking for my forgiveness and willing to pay for all the costs he'd
caused, I'd have forgiven him that instant.
Kai
Tommy
"Blue Moon" > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:00:17 -0000, "Tommy"
> <Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
>
> Also, do I have any expectations regarding the outcome?
>
> Getting to understand expectations is perhaps part of why Step 8 is
> where it is. I used to drink on things not turning out as I thought
> they should.
> I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
>
> 1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
> 2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
Providing that to do so won't injure them or others - see there's
practically an opt out clause in most writings or understandings of the
steps (IMO).
Injuring 'others' is to include yourself, and that takes in your
expectations, or what if you got a refusal/rebuttal. Nothing like rejection
to sharpen up a nice big burning desire to 'get ones own back'.
'Became willing' is another opt out, or delaying mechanism to give time to
get the full benefit of understanding more the why of doing the step than
the actual doing of it.
Plenty of time. I'll get flamed for promoting this attitude and opinion -
but far too often, encouragement is given to newly sober members to do the
steps/practice the programme, clean house, when if actual fact we don't have
the wherewithal to buy the cleaning materials even.
When is the time right - again, sharing inside the rooms, nabbing someone
with a good friendly and helpful soul, it should be easily seen who people
look to for advice and guidance. Otherwise read the book I say, really read
and parse and examine the sentences individually and use a dictionary if
necessary. It worked for me when I finally realized with a bump, that I
didn't know everything. Using the dictionary is three-fold, it helps pass
the time, it also educates me on proper usage of words, (never yet opened
one without reading a few more words than I meant to) and finally for me
anyway, it shows me that I don't know the half of what I thought I knew.
Gawd thats an enlightenment, and a relief. There's 800,000 words in my
dictionary, and it relieved me greatly to know that the average person has
the capacity to use 20,000 of them, although at any given day he averages
out at 2,500 different ones.
An hour long AA meeting might make 7,500 words, though how many are
different would be debateable I reckon. Lots of people repeat and repeat,
and bear in mind this also, if one were to take out a, the, and, for, from
etc from the 12 step pamphlet, you'd be left with 28 words not repeated - go
on I dare anyone to try it:-))
AA taught me this in its own way you know, leastwise I mightn't have
realized it without my sobriety and entry to AA membership (by 'this' I mean
that I don't know everything, am never likely to know everything, and still
would fight to the bitter end to prove that I know more than someone else).
Wonder if God had anything to do with it, nahh he didn't speak English did
he :-)
Cheers
Tommy
> Blue Moon
Kai
> "Blue Moon" > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:00:17 -0000, "Tommy"
>
>><Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
>>
>>Also, do I have any expectations regarding the outcome?
>>
>>Getting to understand expectations is perhaps part of why Step 8 is
>>where it is. I used to drink on things not turning out as I thought
>>they should.
>
>
>>I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
>>
>>1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
>>2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
>
>
> Providing that to do so won't injure them or others - see there's
> practically an opt out clause in most writings or understandings of the
> steps (IMO).
Except that I don't see how it would be possible to injure anyone by
making a list and becoming willing to make amends. The evaluation of
the said possible further harm falls in the domain of the step 9. The
distinction is clear, and justified IMO.
The way I see it, the relationship between steps 8 and 9 is somewhat
similar to the one between steps 4 and 5. One shouldn't think too much
about the possibly fearsome step 5 while making the inventory. The
same goes for step 8, don't think about the 'act of making amends',
but concentrate on the inventory. I feel this approach helped me to
come up with a probably more honest result in both steps 4 and 8.
Kai
Robert McGregor
>
> "Blue Moon" > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:00:17 -0000, "Tommy"
> > <Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also, do I have any expectations regarding the outcome?
> >
> > Getting to understand expectations is perhaps part of why Step 8 is
> > where it is. I used to drink on things not turning out as I thought
> > they should.
>
> > I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
> >
> > 1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
> > 2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
>
> Providing that to do so won't injure them or others - see there's
> practically an opt out clause in most writings or understandings of the
> steps (IMO).
Have you checked that vaunted dictionary for the difference between
"practically" and practicable?
> Injuring 'others' is to include yourself,
Did they teach you that at Schizophrenics Anonymous?
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_79.htm
"Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general
principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided
to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given
strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal
consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail,
but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything."
>and that takes in your
> expectations, or what if you got a refusal/rebuttal.
>Nothing like rejection
> to sharpen up a nice big burning desire to 'get ones own back'.
> 'Became willing' is another opt out, or delaying mechanism to give time to
> get the full benefit of understanding more the why of doing the step than
> the actual doing of it.
Really? So the advice in the BB, http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_76.htm is an
opt out?
"If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes"
> Plenty of time. I'll get flamed for promoting this attitude and
pinion -
> but far too often, encouragement is given to newly sober members to do the
> steps/practice the programme, clean house, when if actual fact we don't
have
> the wherewithal to buy the cleaning materials even.
Ah, off course! The chemical solution!
Bob;-)
Blue Moon
<Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
>
>"Blue Moon" > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:00:17 -0000, "Tommy"
>> <Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
>> I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
>>
>> 1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
>> 2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
>
>Providing that to do so won't injure them or others
No, that's in Step 9. Step 8 really has little to do with 9.
>see there's practically an opt out clause in most writings or understandings of the
>steps (IMO).
Seems to me that's where "conscience" and, ultimately, "alcohol" come
into play.
--
Blue Moon
Virtualoso
<Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
> Injuring 'others' is to include yourself ...
> ... use a dictionary if
> necessary. It worked for me when I finally realized with a bump, that I
> didn't know everything. Using the dictionary is three-fold, it helps pass
> the time, it also educates me on proper usage of words, (never yet opened
> one without reading a few more words than I meant to) and finally for me
> anyway, it shows me that I don't know the half of what I thought I knew.
Which dictionary are you using that has you understanding "others" as
being yourself?
Tommy
"Robert McGregor"> Did they teach you that at Schizophrenics Anonymous?
> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_79.htm
> "Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general
> principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided
> to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be
given
> strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal
> consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail,
> but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything."
> Ah, off course! The chemical solution!
>
>
> Bob;-)
Well for your erudition Bob, I'm not sure if I'm a real alcoholic, a true
alcoholic or even a recovered alcoholic. I'm just an ordinary everyday
alcoholic with a willingness to get on with life. If that entails suffering
the slings and arrows of the 'expert' alcoholics that know all the answers,
I could very well be the 'man'.
Now don't be going and sweating the really easy stuff, like suggestions,
interpretations and opinions, and personal reviews of our paths to joy and
freedom. Else you'll get yourself caught up in having to lecture to a
country bumpkin like me, who will readily admit - in print and in public -
that he doesn't know it all.
P S, look up a few words for yourself ! 'rhetorical' 'literal'
'metaphorical', I'm sure you'll find references to them in your 'saved'
items.
:-)
Cheers
Robert McGregor
>
> "Robert McGregor"> Did they teach you that at Schizophrenics Anonymous?
> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_79.htm
> > "Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some
general
> > principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have
decided
> > to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be
> given
> > strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the
personal
> > consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face
jail,
> > but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything."
>
> > Ah, off course! The chemical solution!
> >
> >
> > Bob;-)
>
> Well for your erudition Bob, I'm not sure if I'm a real alcoholic, a true
> alcoholic or even a recovered alcoholic. I'm just an ordinary everyday
> alcoholic with a willingness to get on with life. If that entails
suffering
> the slings and arrows of the 'expert' alcoholics that know all the
answers,
> I could very well be the 'man'.
You may have succeeded in passing yerself off as humble, had you tried it
before you flapped yer mouth.
>
> Now don't be going and sweating the really easy stuff, like suggestions,
> interpretations and opinions, and personal reviews of our paths to joy and
> freedom. Else you'll get yourself caught up in having to lecture to a
> country bumpkin like me, who will readily admit - in print and in public -
> that he doesn't know it all.
> P S, look up a few words for yourself ! 'rhetorical' 'literal'
> 'metaphorical', I'm sure you'll find references to them in your 'saved'
> items.
>
> :-)
> Cheers
>
>
You can keep yer cap, it fits you to a tee
Yourself posted the "interpretations," Tommy. Seems all you have left to
defend your bullshit is sidetracking, and blarney.
Bob
Tom G.
>
> "Blue Moon" > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:00:17 -0000, "Tommy"
> > <Tommyschl...@anyway.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also, do I have any expectations regarding the outcome?
> >
> > Getting to understand expectations is perhaps part of why Step 8 is
> > where it is. I used to drink on things not turning out as I thought
> > they should.
>
> > I perceive 2 distinct parts to Step 8:
> >
> > 1. Made a list of all those we had harmed.
> > 2. Became willing to make amends to them all.
>
> Providing that to do so won't injure them or others - see there's
> practically an opt out clause in most writings or understandings of the
> steps (IMO).
> Injuring 'others' is to include yourself, and that takes in your
> expectations, or what if you got a refusal/rebuttal. Nothing like
rejection
> to sharpen up a nice big burning desire to 'get ones own back'.
> 'Became willing' is another opt out, or delaying mechanism to give time to
> get the full benefit of understanding more the why of doing the step than
> the actual doing of it.
> Plenty of time. I'll get flamed for promoting this attitude and
> but far too often, encouragement is given to newly sober members to do the
> steps/practice the programme, clean house, when if actual fact we don't
have
> the wherewithal to buy the cleaning materials even.
Gawd knows I hate to miss an opportunity to flame you,
but I happen to agree with this... I don't think the steps have
"opt outs", but they are written in such a way that they can
be accepted by damn near anyone. The religious steps come
to mind... How many times have you seen a newcomer come
in, start workin' steps to a faretheewell and wind up drunk before
you know it...?? Sames true with those that come in and claim
to have "found Gawd"... Bastiids wind up drunk almost without
fail... In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
I've wanted to strangle those sons-of-bitches that claim they did
a step a week until they got 'em finished...
Tommy
> "Tommy" >
> You can keep yer cap, it fits you to a tee
>
> Yourself posted the "interpretations," Tommy. Seems all you have left to
> defend your bullshit is sidetracking, and blarney.
>
> Bob
Ohh in that case I'm sorry so Bob,
I didn't know that posting interpretations was reserved to the chosen ones.
Neither was I aware I was defending anything, just my opinions man.
Cheers
Tommy
--
When looking for faults, use a mirror not a telescope.
Robert McGregor
> When looking for faults, use a mirror not a telescope.
Ok, don't tell me, show me.
Bob
Tommy
> "Tommy" >> When looking for faults, use a mirror not a telescope.
>
> Ok, don't tell me, show me.
>
> Bob
Swallowing your pride seldom leads to indigestion
:-)
Cheers
Tommy
Mikey
>
> Swallowing your pride seldom leads to indigestion
> :-)
> Cheers
> Tommy
Swallowing semen seldom leads to Anemia.
Virtualoso
<the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
> In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
What's to "wait" for?
Tom G.
Why not take it as you can deal with it...?? I didn't notice
a timetable in the Big Book anywhere... You always stand
the chance of scarin' the sot back to his/her bottle... As the
sayin' goes, "Easy does it, but do it"... Don't say when...
Moonraker
I bet Mikey's red cell count is astronomical.
>
>
Mikey
> > >
> > > Swallowing your pride seldom leads to indigestion
> > > :-)
> > > Cheers
> > > Tommy
> >
> > Swallowing semen seldom leads to Anemia.
>
> I bet Mikey's red cell count is astronomical.
Jeez, now that was a well thought out, original and FUNNY comeback! A tip of
the hat for that one.
--Mikey--
Virtualoso
<the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
> "Virtualoso" wrote in message:
> > In article <7ogob.131242$k74.70363@lakeread05>, Tom G.
> > <the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
> >
> > What's to "wait" for?
>
>
> Why not take it as you can deal with it...?? I didn't notice
> a timetable in the Big Book anywhere...
Check the chapters How It Works and Into Action. How can one know what
they "can deal with" if they don't deal with it?
> You always stand
> the chance of scarin' the sot back to his/her bottle...
Who's scaring whom? The AA program is unabashedly daunting. Heck, just
read those steps up on the wall of countless AA meetings. If that much
don't "scare" them off, then going through with it will? Ha ha. What
"else" is there to be there for? Besides, if anyone wants to "scare"
off, then that's up to them.
> As the
> sayin' goes, "Easy does it, but do it"... Don't say when...
Maybe after a coupla' more years of ruinous drinking, then. You know,
once they "get ready." LOL
rosie read and post
>
> > "Virtualoso" wrote in message:
> > > In article <7ogob.131242$k74.70363@lakeread05>, > > >
> > > > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
> > >
> >
> >
> > Why not take it as you can deal with it...?? I didn't notice
> > a timetable in the Big Book anywhere...
>
i agree!
i really don't notice ANY benefit to "rushing" someone through the
steps.................
i was NEVER rushed by my sponsor, to "meet a deadline", but rather was
encouraged to go slowly, and do them to the best of my ability.
it worked for me, just fine!
Robert McGregor
"rosie read and post" <readandpo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dClob.79713$%C5.5...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Hahahahaha according to what you told us earlier, seems you did not notice
ANY benefit in *your* version of the steps at all, until you took your step
two, "Came to believe that drugs could restore us to sanity," and started
popping your poopers.
Bob
Dylin
<snipped>
> Hahahahaha according to what you told us earlier, seems you did not notice
> ANY benefit in *your* version of the steps at all, until you took your step
> two, "Came to believe that drugs could restore us to sanity," and started
> popping your poopers.
>
> Bob
I don't understand why anyone would deliberately act like a mean
spirited harpy, because someone else is taking an antidepressant. Most
certainly antidepressants, including the newer SRRI's, aren't a cure-all
for everyone, but for some people they mean the difference between
life/barely existing/death.
If it wasn't for an SRRI, my best friend would have killed himself a few
short years ago. He had been in therapy, struggling to overcome his
depression. His progression was nil. He had to be hospitalized and was
on 24 hour watch, because he was so suicidal.
Finally after much trial and error, the psychiatrists found an SRRI that
helped him. It didn't take long for my friend to be more like his old
pleasant self again. He went back to being active in AA, the community
and life in general. This went on for several years. Unfortunately, one
of the side effects of that SRRI can be incredible weight gain. John
went from slim and trim to extremely overweight, but the black
depression did not return. John worked his farm and did a lot of manual
labour, but the weight gain continued.
John was very concerned about all the excess weight. After discussions
with his psychiatrists, his gp, his family and friends, he decided to
stop the SRRI and try using many therapy sessions and a support group
instead. The two goals being to get his weight down, while keeping the
depression at bay. The psychiatrist tapered him off the med. John
continued with extra therapy, his 12 step work, and all the other good
things he does.
Three months after stopping the SRRI, he was admitted to the psych ward,
back on 24 hour suicide watch. He was in such bad shape that he actually
asked for and received electro therapy treatments. They were really hard
on him and he lost part of his life long memories and for several months
he had difficulty with his short term memory as well. It did help some
with the suicidal thoughts, but the black was still there. He stayed in
the hospital for another month and worked daily with the psychiatric
staff. In the end, the psychiatrists told him that he was not improving
as they had hoped. He went home and tried to get back to his work and
his family, but the very serious depression wouldn't budge. The only
thing modern medicine could offer to bring him back from the abyss was
one little tablet that just happens to work for him.
There was much rejoicing amongst his family and friends when he went
back on the SRRI and rejoined the world of the functional. He is a
lovely man and seeing him smile again is a wonderful thing. His weight
has stopped increasing, but he is still very overweight. He may end up
having physical difficulties arise from the excess weight, but that's
better than dying from a self inflicted bullet to the head.
I'd much rather he takes his one tablet every morning and sticks around
to nag me. I don't want to go to a preventable funeral and bury my best
friend.
--
Dylin
Robert McGregor
"Dylin" <dy...@rock.com> wrote in message news:3FA1FCBA...@rock.com...
> Robert McGregor wrote:
> <snipped>
> > Hahahahaha according to what you told us earlier, seems you did not
notice
> > ANY benefit in *your* version of the steps at all, until you took your
step
> > two, "Came to believe that drugs could restore us to sanity," and
started
> > popping your poopers.
> >
> > Bob
>
> I don't understand why anyone would deliberately act like a mean
> spirited harpy, because someone else is taking an antidepressant.
If you want to think I'm acting like a mean spirited harpy because poopski
is taking anti depressants, enjoy your don't understanding.
Bob
Shawster
"Tom G." <the...@dipshit.com> wrote in message
news:G1kob.132736$k74.72714@lakeread05...
> "Virtualoso" wrote in message:
> > In article <7ogob.131242$k74.70363@lakeread05>, Tom G.
> > <the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
> >
> > What's to "wait" for?
>
>
> Why not take it as you can deal with it...?? I didn't notice
> a timetable in the Big Book anywhere... You always stand
> the chance of scarin' the sot back to his/her bottle... As the
> sayin' goes, "Easy does it, but do it"... Don't say when...
problem is you might scare them sober. you just never know. It's up to
their HP to do the job.
I'm in the footwork business. Results are a different department.
And why do you want to stangle?
Virtualoso
> ... Most
> certainly antidepressants, including the newer SRRI's, aren't a cure-all
> for everyone, but for some people they mean the difference between
> life/barely existing/death.
Having the wisdom to know the difference between who is "some people"
and who is not, is likely the tricky part. And just what might save a
life, or not -- before the fact, either way.
"Case studies" of anecdotal tales about individuals, both
heart-wrenching and tragic, seem in no short supply. And since
available in the array of versions -- supportive, alarming,
questionable, etc. -- it's unclear what the value is.
Now that we have a story responding to disdain toward drug dependency
by dramatizing support for drug dependency, shall we match that with a
tale of tragic drug demise in the misguided hope for that kind of soma
salvation?
Some people.
Dylin
>
> Some people.
Nice side-step.
Gail
You friend is fortunate to have a friend like you.
Best to you both,
Gail
Virtualoso
What's to "side step"?
JB
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message news:301020031806207836%virtu...@dot.com...
In order for me to give each Step a chance of working for me, I have to:
1. develop an understanding of what it means;
2. accept it at gut level;
3. give up ways of thinking and behaviour that are familiar to me.
I am coming to believe that these things happen to me when they're meant to happen which,
incidentally, is rarely as quickly as I would like them to :^)).
Yours
JB
Robert McGregor
"JB" <JBC...@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bnta56$k47$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
I found the steps worked for me by,
One day at a time
Being as honest and fearless as I could be from the very start.
Abandoning rigorous attachment to my old ideas..
Taking the steps in sequence, (not afraid to go back in sequence either) as
best I could on the day.
A lot of understanding of what those steps meant for me is still coming,
years later.
Bob
Robert McGregor
Would have been more accurate had I written honest, fearless, and
*thorough,* from the very start.
Bob
"Robert McGregor" <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bntbsj$15551s$1...@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
JB
"Robert McGregor" <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bntbsj$15551s$1...@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> I found the steps worked for me by,
>
> One day at a time
>
> Being as honest and fearless as I could be from the very start.
> Abandoning rigorous attachment to my old ideas..
> Taking the steps in sequence, (not afraid to go back in sequence either) as
> best I could on the day.
>
> A lot of understanding of what those steps meant for me is still coming,
> years later.
>
> Bob
Hi,
By working every day on something that is AA-related, I think/hope/ trust (I don't yet know which is
the right word for me to use) that I will gradually become more honest and more fearless, develop my
understanding of AA as a whole, the Twelve Steps, myself and life in general and, also become
happy/accept/able to deal with (again, I don't yet know which is the right word for me to use)
who I am and life as it is. :^))
Best regards
JB
rosie read and post
> You friend is fortunate to have a friend like you.
> Best to you both,
> Gail
>
i was just thinking the same thing...........................
--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie
It has bothered me all my life that I do not paint like everybody
else.
........................~Henri Matisse
"Gail" <serenity...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vq42v5i...@corp.supernews.com...
rosie read and post
"Dylin" <dy...@rock.com> wrote in message
news:3FA1FCBA...@rock.com...
>
> I don't understand why anyone would deliberately act like a mean
> spirited harpy, because someone else is taking an antidepressant.
something to do?
>Most certainly antidepressants, including the newer SRRI's, aren't a
cure-all
> for everyone, but for some people they mean the difference between
> life/barely existing/death.
.................and all to often those folks who ought to use
medication, don't, because they run into tradition breaking idiots who
convince them otherwise.
after a few years in recovery, i am finding less and less of this
predjudice, thank HP!
thanks for speaking up dylin.
rosie
rosie read and post
> I don't understand why anyone would deliberately act like a mean
> spirited harpy, because someone else is taking an antidepressant.
just wait until these idiots start in on those who use INHALERS for
their asthma, instead of "the steps".....................
LOL!
Moonraker
>
>
> "Dylin" <dy...@rock.com> wrote in message
> news:3FA1FCBA...@rock.com...
> >
> > I don't understand why anyone would deliberately act like a mean
> > spirited harpy, because someone else is taking an antidepressant.
>
> something to do?
>
30,000 innocuous posts a year, eh Rosie binBlabbin?
JB
"Moonraker" <fuggad...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Wftob.3030$BX....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
Hi Moonraker,
I'd like to correct the record and add another statistic. Approximately 38,100 posts since 1999.
Approximately 8,070 since the 1st Jan 2003 :^))
JB
Moonraker
Geezus, that's a lot of ROTFLMAO's
More than 9,000 posts per year? wonder how many of them had an original
thought?
.
Shawster
> > > > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
> > >
> > > What's to "wait" for?
> >
> > In order for me to give each Step a chance of working for me, I have
to:
> >
> > 1. develop an understanding of what it means;
> >
> > 2. accept it at gut level;
> >
> > 3. give up ways of thinking and behaviour that are familiar to me.
> >
> > I am coming to believe that these things happen to me when they're meant
> to happen which,
> > incidentally, is rarely as quickly as I would like them to :^)).
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
> I found the steps worked for me by,
>
> One day at a time
>
> Being as honest and fearless as I could be from the very start.
> Abandoning rigorous attachment to my old ideas..
> Taking the steps in sequence, (not afraid to go back in sequence either)
as
> best I could on the day.
>
> A lot of understanding of what those steps meant for me is still coming,
> years later.
Don't forget, there is a difference to working steps, and doing one and
waiting until the start of the next. I have seen quite a few people say the
third step prayer, and then put off the fourth step work, thereby delaying
the rest of the steps.
that's why a good sponsor can give a little nudge where needed, or pull back
on the reigns and help with thoroughness.
Shaw
>
>
>
Gail
?
>
> Hi Moonraker,
>
> I'd like to correct the record and add another statistic. Approximately
38,100 posts since 1999.
> Approximately 8,070 since the 1st Jan 2003 :^))
>
> JB
>
>
Are you jealous?
Appears to me that you are doing a pretty good job of trying to catch up
with her.
I personally, have better things to do than to check and see how many times
you post. I looked at that site when Shaw first post it. Since then, I
realize it is none of my business how many times you or anyone else post or
where you post or what you post.
Oh, one more thing, I use to want to be in the clique, too. I have always
thought that you remind me of me and how I was. Thanks for the memories!
;)
Gail
May I suggest that you spend more time on yourself. Wasting time Googling or
checking out how many times one post is irrelevant to my recovery. When I
quit trying analyze, argue or project, the program of AA, along with
counseling, some other treatment programs, and yes, medications at times,
started working for me.
My opinion is like an asshole. Everybody is one. (Sorry, I meant to say HAS
ONE)
Everyone have a nice day or evening.
BOO!!!
JB
BTW, have you noticed that Rosie has not yet answered my latest simple question:isehyou;vI'm still
waiting for an answer for Rosieto my quesiotnwondering how many mostg .
>
>
Virtualoso
wrote:
Interesting notion. None of that sounds like "doing" anything at all.
Is that the Waiting Step?
JB
JB
Robert McGregor
"Shawster" <shaw...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S1uob.84574$Go5.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Given my post was about what worked for me, the only thing I initially
forgot to add was reference to being thorough. As for sponsors, mine was
unfamiliar with the steps, for which I'm thankful. I earned my own recovery,
with my own diligence.
In regard to folk mouthing that (to me) absurd third step prayer, I would be
astounded if any of them continued on to take a fearless and thorough step
four. My experience/observation is that trouble/delay doing step four is
*inevitably* a direct result of a lazy or omitted step three.
Bob
JB
"Gail" <serenity...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:vq4t28g...@corp.supernews.com...
story :^))
JB
BTW, As you take time to comment on some of the things I say, I think it likely that you do not
always consider what I say to be none of your business* :^)).
* Business - proper or rightful concern or responsibility (one of the definitions in Collins
English Dictionary)
GraceHague
Virtualoso
<serenity...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> May I suggest that you spend more time on yourself. ... When I
> quit trying analyze, argue or project, the program of AA, along with
> counseling, some other treatment programs, and yes, medications at times,
> started working for me.
Ah, yes -- spending more time on the self smorgasborg. Very popular
buffet. But, "started working"? Not drinking booze excessively?
Virtualoso
<JBC...@coldman.com> wrote:
> BTW, have you noticed that Rosie has not yet answered my latest simple
> question:isehyou;vI'm still
> waiting for an answer for Rosieto my quesiotnwondering how many mostg .
No wonder.
Blue Moon
Certainly if I was using an asthma inhaler as a solution to stuff like
self-centred ego, that would be a problem. And it would probably work
about as well.
this really has nothing to do with ADs. Some people I have a lot of
time for are either currently on ADs. or have been on them at some
time during sobriety. I apply the principle "take what you want and
leave the rest". To don't have to have another person's depression or
drug in order to gain benefit from them.
Like alcohol, other drugs are not the real problem but they can mask
the problem. That's not to say they necessarily do, but they
certainly can.
--
Blue Moon
rosie read and post
> Oh, one more thing, I use to want to be in the clique, too. I have
always
> thought that you remind me of me and how I was. Thanks for the
memories!
> ;)
>
>
................and then you grew up...........................
:)
Blue Moon
>"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message news:301020031806207836%virtu...@dot.com...
>> In article <7ogob.131242$k74.70363@lakeread05>, Tom G.
>> <the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
>>
>> > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
>>
>> What's to "wait" for?
>
>In order for me to give each Step a chance of working for me, I have to:
>
>1. develop an understanding of what it means;
>
>2. accept it at gut level;
>
>3. give up ways of thinking and behaviour that are familiar to me.
This is probably how it was also for me with Steps 1, 3 and 4. Step 2
I wasted little time over. Step 3 I kind of took piecemeal - followed
a little suggestion, waited for the sky to fall down, followed
another, etc.
With the remainder of the Steps I didn't have to spend too much time
on the analysis. I struggled a little with Step 11, until I realised
that most people are really working the 11th when they think they're
working the 3rd. Also, 10 and 11 can be too-easily forgotten for me
when day-to-day stuff gets in the way.
>I am coming to believe that these things happen to me when they're meant to happen which,
>incidentally, is rarely as quickly as I would like them to :^)).
That applies to almost everything in life, hence "keep it in the day".
When my head is in either yesterday or tomorrow, I can find myself
mentally/emotionally crippled. Maybe that's alcohol damage, who
knows? But life remains largely unmanageable. It's kind of cool to
develop teflon shoulder-pads and become more responsible for actions
and less so for outcomes.
--
Blue Moon
rosie read and post
> I personally, have better things to do than to check and see how many
times
> you post.
or try to figure out who he/she really is.......................
rosie read and post
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message
news:311020030712167219%virtu...@dot.com...
ROTFLMAO!
Blue Moon
<serenity...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>May I suggest that you spend more time on yourself. Wasting time Googling or
>checking out how many times one post is irrelevant to my recovery. When I
>quit trying analyze, argue or project, the program of AA, along with
>counseling, some other treatment programs, and yes, medications at times,
>started working for me.
"Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity
from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when
other activities fail." pg 89.
Sometimes I'm working Step 12 just by "being there". Other times I
can be more proactive. Sure, it's important not to forget what I need
to do for/by myself. But sometimes what I need to do IS get out of
myself by focusing on someone else. "When" and "where", and when to
let go, is a learning process that some never seem to learn.
--
Blue Moon
JB
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message news:311020030642511347%virtu...@dot.com...<snip
JB wrote:
>>In order for me to give each Step a chance of working for me, I have to:
> >
> > 1. develop an understanding of what it means;
> >
> > 2. accept it at gut level;
> >
> > 3. give up ways of thinking and behaviour that are familiar to me.
> >
> > which,
> > incidentally, is rarely as quickly as I would like them to :^)).
>
> Interesting notion. None of that sounds like "doing" anything at all.
> Is that the Waiting Step?
Absolutely not. In the past few weeks, I have worked Steps 1 - 3. I am now working Step 4.
Although I have developed an understanding of what each of these Steps mean, I believe that my
recovery from alcoholism will be nothing more than a short-lived one unless I can also accept in my
heart what it says in each Step. This *is* happening. What I meant by: "I am coming to believe
that these things happen to me when they're meant to happen" is that *I* don't pick the date on
which to accept a Step at gut level or to change an old way of thinking or behaving.. I know these
things have happened when , for example, I've found myself dealing with a situation in a way that I
would not normally do and thinking either while dealing with it or afterwards, that this way is
better for me. At this point I'm thinking that I may not be explaining myself very well.
BTW, some of you will know that I find working the Steps to be an emotionally painful experience and
that at times I don't want to carry on doing them. But whenever I realise and appreciate the
little changes in me that have come about since starting to work them, I decide its worth carrying
on with them.
Yours
JB
Dylin
Every sober "real alcoholic" knows that the steps (properly worked) get
rid of all kinds of depression. That's why Bill W. is such a shining
example of how properly working the steps can permanently cure
depression. He only took to his bed because he felt like resting a lot.
Some of those asthma inhalers contain potent sobriety threatening mood
altering drugs. In a clinical study of Ventolin, 1.5% of the test
subjects developed depression.
Obviously, it's better to error on the side of "sobriety safety" and
stay away from things like asthma medications. If a person uses Ventolin
for their asthma, they run the risk of being in that 1.5%. Then they
might need to take an SRRI to counteract the Ventolin induced
depression.
Might as well just let the asthma kill them and avoid those pesky
sobriety threatening complications.
rosie read and post
"Dylin" <dy...@rock.com> wrote in message
news:3FA2949D...@rock.com...
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you just lost your eligibility to the
"good old boys" club!
LOL!
Dylin
>
> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you just lost your eligibility to the
> "good old boys" club!
I never was eligible for any good old boys club:-)
--
MizDylin
Kai
Huh? Come on, even I'm a member so I think we can stretch the
admission rules to fit you too.
GoodOleKai
Tom G.
> > "Virtualoso" wrote in message:
> > > In article <7ogob.131242$k74.70363@lakeread05>, Tom G.
> > > <the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
> > >
> > > What's to "wait" for?
> >
> >
> > a timetable in the Big Book anywhere...
>
> Check the chapters How It Works and Into Action. How can one know what
> they "can deal with" if they don't deal with it?
I don't need to... There is no given time... How can one know
the he/she has dealt with all they need to deal with...?? I know
I've been reasonable successful with workin' the program because
I'm goin' on eight years sober... As Mark Twain said, "Never
argue with success"...
> > You always stand
> > the chance of scarin' the sot back to his/her bottle...
>
> Who's scaring whom? The AA program is unabashedly daunting.
If you choose to make it so...
> Heck, just
> read those steps up on the wall of countless AA meetings.
I kinda like the fonts most of 'em are printed in... Nothin'
scary that I can see... There might be if I chose to make it so...
> If that much
> don't "scare" them off, then going through with it will? Ha ha.
Lookin' at Mike Tyson ain't that scary, fightin' him
might be...
>What
> "else" is there to be there for?
Well, some go to pick up babes... Others are just lonely or
perhaps frightened at facin' the world sober and need
encouragement... I know people who've been long sober and
never bothered with the steps at all... Am I supposed to believe
that they're "doin' it wrong" because they don't toe my mark...??
> Besides, if anyone wants to "scare"
> off, then that's up to them.
True enough... I've never been scared much by simply words,
your experience may be different...
> > As the
> > sayin' goes, "Easy does it, but do it"... Don't say when...
>
> Maybe after a coupla' more years of ruinous drinking, then. You know,
> once they "get ready." LOL
I think you just answered yer own question... A drunk'll sober
up when he gets damn good and ready to. It takes more for some than
it does others...
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Tom G.
>
> "Tom G." <the...@dipshit.com> wrote in message
> news:G1kob.132736$k74.72714@lakeread05...
> > "Virtualoso" wrote in message:
> > > In article <7ogob.131242$k74.70363@lakeread05>, Tom G.
> > > <the...@dipshit.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In workin' the A.A. program, what the hell's the hurry...??
> > >
> > > What's to "wait" for?
> >
> >
> > Why not take it as you can deal with it...?? I didn't notice
> > the chance of scarin' the sot back to his/her bottle... As the
> > sayin' goes, "Easy does it, but do it"... Don't say when...
>
> their HP to do the job.
I think it's the drunk who has to do the job, not some
HP... I've never once heard from on high the instructions,
"Thomas, go forth and swill beer"... Why should this Gawd get
stuck with soberin' my sorry ass up...?? Naw, Shawster, I went
to all them meetin's and did the work myself...
> I'm in the footwork business. Results are a different department.
>
> And why do you want to stangle?
"Stangle"... What's that...? I don't think I've ever stangled
in my life...
Tom
Blue Moon
>BTW, some of you will know that I find working the Steps to be an emotionally painful experience and
>that at times I don't want to carry on doing them.
Sounds quite normal to me.
That's precisely why:
1. the guys in bars who still need recovery are not flocking to AA to
work the Steps.
2. one cannot simply "think" oneself recovered.
3. Step 4 is written, and its very nature involves emotional stuff
that's been avoided all these years.
4. Steps 5 thru 11 exist.
--
Blue Moon
Jim Blair
Dylin wrote
That's why Bill W. is such a shining example of how properly working the
steps can permanently cure depression. He only took to his bed because he
felt like resting a lot.
If you would take the time to read Steps 5,6 and 7 of the 12 X 12, you will
come to understand that Bill W. did treat his depression with the Steps.
Jim
Virtualoso
wrote:
It probably helps if one's former ways were more painful and
convincingly futile.