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Psychiatry In Crisis
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Jimbo
May 21, 2013, 7:28:28 AM5/21/13
to
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 8:50:49 AM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 6:28 AM, Jimbo wrote:
> Very interesting article
>
> http://www.canada.com/health/Infighting+boycotts+resignations+Psychiatry+faces+another+crisis+confidence/8400821/story.htm
>
I dunno about psychiatry, but your /link/ is definitely in crisis.
> Very interesting article
>
> http://www.canada.com/health/Infighting+boycotts+resignations+Psychiatry+faces+another+crisis+confidence/8400821/story.htm
>
Tim and Lisa
May 21, 2013, 9:03:56 AM5/21/13
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"Charlie M. 1958" wrote in message news:knfqbn$vik$1...@dont-email.me...
could be an operator error. . .Naw!!! ;o)
Jimbo
May 21, 2013, 9:38:30 AM5/21/13
to
On 21 May, 08:50, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
> I dunno about psychiatry, but your /link/ is definitely in crisis.
http://www.canada.com/health/Infighting+boycotts+resignations+Psychiatry+faces+another+crisis+confidence/8400821/story.html
> I dunno about psychiatry, but your /link/ is definitely in crisis.
This should work
Tim and Lisa
May 21, 2013, 11:11:23 AM5/21/13
to
"Jimbo" wrote in message
news:853d97a5-3190-4b8b...@i3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
BINGO!!!! ;o)
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 11:43:46 AM5/21/13
to
surprises. Mental illness, at least to the extent it is understood at
this point in time, is largely subjective. Diagnosis and treatment are
hit or miss. The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is hardly
newsworthy, IMO.
The main problems with diagnosing mental illness is the same as the main
problem with diagnosing alcoholism. Biology and psychology seem to both
be at play, and no one really knows where one leaves off and the other
begins.
Jimbo
May 21, 2013, 12:11:36 PM5/21/13
to
On 21 May, 11:43, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
> were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is hardly
> newsworthy, IMO.
The fear is that under DSM V, the shirnks can find everyone has mental
The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
> were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is hardly
> newsworthy, IMO.
illness.
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 12:15:07 PM5/21/13
to
Mark Warner
May 21, 2013, 12:20:53 PM5/21/13
to
The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric or
simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a bright, rowdy,
defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very well may have wanted to
drug me.
--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying
Socrates
May 21, 2013, 1:03:24 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 9:20 AM, Mark Warner wrote:
> On 05/21/2013 12:11 PM, Jimbo wrote:
>> On 21 May, 11:43, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
>> The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
>>> were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is hardly
>>> newsworthy, IMO.
>>
>> The fear is that under DSM V, the shirnks can find everyone has mental
>> illness.
>
> And once that's done, there has to be some kind of drug or therapy for it.
>
> The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric or
> simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a bright, rowdy,
> defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very well may have wanted to
> drug me.
Trust the market.
> On 05/21/2013 12:11 PM, Jimbo wrote:
>> On 21 May, 11:43, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
>> The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
>>> were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is hardly
>>> newsworthy, IMO.
>>
>> The fear is that under DSM V, the shirnks can find everyone has mental
>> illness.
>
> And once that's done, there has to be some kind of drug or therapy for it.
>
> The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric or
> simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a bright, rowdy,
> defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very well may have wanted to
> drug me.
Skeezix LaRocca
May 21, 2013, 1:25:58 PM5/21/13
to
On 05/21/2013 01:03 PM, Socrates wrote:
>
> Trust the market.
Not on my watch, Comrade.
--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed
>
> Trust the market.
Not on my watch, Comrade.
--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed
Socrates
May 21, 2013, 2:01:57 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 10:25 AM, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> On 05/21/2013 01:03 PM, Socrates wrote:
>> Trust the market.
> Not on my watch, Comrade.
Trust the man behind the curtain, tho /invisible/ he knows what is best
> On 05/21/2013 01:03 PM, Socrates wrote:
>> Trust the market.
> Not on my watch, Comrade.
for the world.
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 2:11:10 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 1:01 PM, Socrates wrote:
> Trust the man behind the curtain, tho /invisible/ he knows what is best
> for the world.
>
>
You talking about Hic or Ex?
> Trust the man behind the curtain, tho /invisible/ he knows what is best
> for the world.
>
>
nipntuk
May 21, 2013, 2:36:09 PM5/21/13
to
I'm willing to bet that at this point not one of you has much practical
experience in a health or mental health related field. Not one of you
has a medical degree. Yet you are all imminently qualified to ponder
scholarly tomes and advance judgments from the safe confines of your
Barcaloungers.
There *may* be *some* over-diagnosis, and *some* over-prescription,
however your stereotypes are false.
Personally, I have seen hundreds of people - likely more than that,
but I'm staying inside the lines of conservative numbers - who've been
appropriately diagnosed and treated in ways which have liberated them
from severe disorders that were often causes of lifetimes of misery.
I personally assist in the process of regular review and monitoring of
blood levels and other markers, to insure that people are on the lowest
effective doses of medications, that the medications are working as
intended and that side effects and adverse reactions are closely watched.
I've worked with one individual since 1999, seeing him burn through a
series of therapists and case workers with virtually no change in his
many destructive behaviors - who refused medications steadfastly until
he was at the brink of re-institutionalization. A year ago he agreed to
take a common antidepressant (which is considered 'off label' for his
disorder, but is known to be effective) and within a few weeks, he
ceased behaviors which had been part of his 'normal' throughout his
entire lifetime (he is now 40). In conjunction with his other supports,
the medications were the missing piece, and his life has dramatically
changed.
I have seen stories such as this - individuals who are able to function
and live more humane and self-regulated lives in the community, as
opposed to revolving door hospitalizations and even permanent
institutionalization as a result of the diagnostic skill of their
professional helpers, and appropriate medications.
I've seen few of the horror stories that may represent the experience
of a very small minority.
Let the ARAA beat go on, though - never let a fact stand in the way of
opinion!
Mark Warner
May 21, 2013, 3:01:40 PM5/21/13
to
mental illnesses is appropriate and effective. But if you don't think
that children are being over-diagnosed and over-medicated for behavioral
"problems"...
The population you deal with is very much different from that of the
public school nurse that is handing out Ritilan to an alarmingly large
proportion of students. The fact that pharmacological therapy is right
and proper when done correctly doesn't mean that looking at how it is
applied generally is out of line.
--
Mark Warner
...lose .inhibitions when replying
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 3:10:41 PM5/21/13
to
I don't dispute for a moment that many folks' lives are vastly improved
when they get the right medication(s). But would /you/ dispute that
finding the correct drug and dosage often involves much trial and error,
and is influenced by the marketing strategies of the drug companies?
Besides... I think all any of us was doing was relating through our own
personal experiences to a debate which clearly exists within the
community of experts. In other words, this isn't the ARAA armchair
doctors vs. the actual medical community... It's just the ARAA kibitzers
commenting on a debate that exists /among/ the experts.
Should we not offer opinions on politics if we have no poli sci degree
or have not held office? No football talk because we're not professional
coaches?
I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
this discussion was really suggesting that.
Mark Warner
May 21, 2013, 3:23:26 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 3:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>
> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
> this discussion was really suggesting that.
That one *really* sets me off. I've run people out of meetings for that
>
> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
> this discussion was really suggesting that.
one.
Skeezix LaRocca
May 21, 2013, 3:42:22 PM5/21/13
to
On 05/21/2013 03:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>
> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>
Some of these Asshat Gurus in AA get to think that *every* problem in
>
> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>
the world can be solved by following the gospel of St. Bill.
That is fine, as long as they keep it to themselves...The problem is
that these guys rarely, if ever, no when to keep their bullshit opinions
to themselves.
I don't know how many times I've heard some old kook, with a shit eating
grin tell a newcomer that he "don't need that fuckin' medication".....I
know of one young guy that listened to some know it all old timer and
went into a tailspin, that damn near caused himself to commit suicide.
nipntuk
May 21, 2013, 3:47:37 PM5/21/13
to
drugs, and that ADHD is being diagnosed for every kid with a case of the
fidgets is a myth. Again, *some* over-diagnosis and over prescription?
Yes. Rampantly so? No.
Between 3% (low end) to 7% (high end) of American children are said to
be diagnosed with ADHD. of those, around 66% are treated with
medications. While a school nurse may in fact dispense those meds,
(because they are most effective during the day when kids are in school)
The school nurse is not generally the diagnostician, nor the prescribing
authority. Better in many cases that a professional should insure that
kids actually get the medications on time and at the appropriate dose,
and be able to monitor them, than that they should be left to those who
may be less rigorous about such important practices, like parents who
may not be as diligent, or the kids themselves.
The prevalence of ADHD tends to be most concentrated in the south, and
in poorer areas of the country where access to prenatal care, adequate
nutrition and early childhood intervention tends to be worst.
Over-diagnosis needs to be considered and ended where it occurs, but
it's a far more cogent question as to why the actual incidence of the
disorder is on the rise - without attacking the messenger.
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 3:54:07 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 2:47 PM, nipntuk wrote:
> Over-diagnosis needs to be considered and ended where it occurs, but
> it's a far more cogent question as to why the actual incidence of the
> disorder is on the rise - without attacking the messenger.
>
>
>
But that begs the question raised by the article jimbo originally
> Over-diagnosis needs to be considered and ended where it occurs, but
> it's a far more cogent question as to why the actual incidence of the
> disorder is on the rise - without attacking the messenger.
>
>
>
posted: Is the /disorder/ actually on the rise, or is it just the
/diagnosis/ that's on the rise? I don't pretend to know the answer, but
it seems like a reasonable question.
Jimbo
May 21, 2013, 3:54:42 PM5/21/13
to
Jimbo
May 21, 2013, 3:55:48 PM5/21/13
to
On 21 May, 14:36, nipntuk wrote:
> Let the ARAA beat go on, though - never let a fact stand in the way of
> opinion!
Why don't you take up your beef with the author of the article?
> Let the ARAA beat go on, though - never let a fact stand in the way of
> opinion!
Charlie M. 1958
May 21, 2013, 3:58:54 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 2:42 PM, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> On 05/21/2013 03:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>
>>
>> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
>> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
>> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
>> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>>
>
> Some of these Asshat Gurus in AA get to think that *every* problem in
> the world can be solved by following the gospel of St. Bill.
>
> That is fine, as long as they keep it to themselves...The problem is
> that these guys rarely, if ever, no when to keep their bullshit opinions
> to themselves.
>
> I don't know how many times I've heard some old kook, with a shit eating
> grin tell a newcomer that he "don't need that fuckin' medication".....I
> know of one young guy that listened to some know it all old timer and
> went into a tailspin, that damn near caused himself to commit suicide.
>
>
In fairness, overprescription and/or misdiagnosis is probably part of
> On 05/21/2013 03:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>
>>
>> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
>> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
>> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
>> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>>
>
> Some of these Asshat Gurus in AA get to think that *every* problem in
> the world can be solved by following the gospel of St. Bill.
>
> That is fine, as long as they keep it to themselves...The problem is
> that these guys rarely, if ever, no when to keep their bullshit opinions
> to themselves.
>
> I don't know how many times I've heard some old kook, with a shit eating
> grin tell a newcomer that he "don't need that fuckin' medication".....I
> know of one young guy that listened to some know it all old timer and
> went into a tailspin, that damn near caused himself to commit suicide.
>
>
the reason this comes up so often. A person is prescribed
antidepressants when his real problem is alcoholism. Then when he gets
sober he finds he no longer needs the medication. Unfortunately, some
geniuses take this as evidence that /nobody/ needs medication once they
get sober.
Sharx35
May 21, 2013, 4:59:21 PM5/21/13
to
"Mark Warner" <mhwarner.i...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b01l75...@mid.individual.net...
> On 05/21/2013 12:11 PM, Jimbo wrote:
>> On 21 May, 11:43, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
>> The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
>>> were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is
>>> hardly
>>> newsworthy, IMO.
>>
>> The fear is that under DSM V, the shirnks can find everyone has
>> mental
>> illness.
>
> And once that's done, there has to be some kind of drug or
> therapy for it.
>
> The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric
> or simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a
> bright, rowdy, defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very
> well may have wanted to drug me.
And rightly so! Deviance cannot be ignored. SOMA for all.
>> On 21 May, 11:43, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
>> The fact that a bunch of folks could convince doctors they
>>> were insane by pretending to have symptoms of insanity is
>>> hardly
>>> newsworthy, IMO.
>>
>> The fear is that under DSM V, the shirnks can find everyone has
>> mental
>> illness.
>
> And once that's done, there has to be some kind of drug or
> therapy for it.
>
> The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric
> or simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a
> bright, rowdy, defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very
> well may have wanted to drug me.
Sharx35
May 21, 2013, 4:59:40 PM5/21/13
to
"Jimbo" <jbl...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:870c0c9b-a637-4764...@v9g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
Socrates
May 21, 2013, 5:15:37 PM5/21/13
to
Frankie prescribes beginning each day with 2mg of Risperdal followed by
1 hour nestled comfortably in a Barcalounger. Repeat as needed.
Socrates
May 21, 2013, 5:21:49 PM5/21/13
to
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
You will never guess what the fifth and sixth best-selling prescription
drugs are in the United States, so I�ll just tell you:
Abilify and Seroquel, two powerful antipsychotics. In 2011 alone, they
and other antipsychotic drugs were prescribed to 3.1 million Americans
at a cost of $18.2 billion, a 13 percent increase over the previous
year, according to the market research firm IMS Health.
Those drugs are used to treat such serious psychiatric disorders as
schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and severe major depression. But the
rates of these disorders have been stable in the adult population for
years. So how did these and other antipsychotics get to be so popular?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/health/a-call-for-caution-in-the-use-of-antipsychotic-drugs.html?_r=0
http://tinyurl.com/dyfbkre
Sister.Lyndi
May 21, 2013, 9:31:19 PM5/21/13
to
Mark Warner wrote:
> The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric or
> simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a bright, rowdy,
> defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very well may have wanted to
> drug me.
I was a bright, rowdy, socially "ept" kid. I guess I'd have been
> The most disturbing aspect is the "diseasification" of eccentric or
> simple "poor" behavior, especially in children. I was a bright, rowdy,
> defiant, and socially inept kid. Today they very well may have wanted to
> drug me.
excluded from drug therapy, 'cause I was "ept." :-)
S. Lyndi
Sharx35
May 21, 2013, 9:35:08 PM5/21/13
to
"Sister.Lyndi" <Sister...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b02leb...@mid.individual.net...
boys some severe cases of "leg cramps", eh? ROFL.
Jimbo
May 21, 2013, 11:33:57 PM5/21/13
to
On 21 May, 21:31, "Sister.Lyndi" wrote:
> I was a bright, rowdy, socially "ept" kid. I guess I'd have been
> excluded from drug therapy, 'cause I was "ept." :-)
You would get drug therapy to slow you down.:-)
> I was a bright, rowdy, socially "ept" kid. I guess I'd have been
> excluded from drug therapy, 'cause I was "ept." :-)
groundhog
May 22, 2013, 12:07:54 AM5/22/13
to
--
~
peace
mgh
Sister.Lyndi
May 22, 2013, 9:45:56 AM5/22/13
to
it was bedtime.
I read a lot. I played hard. I did my chores. I slept well. My head
would hit the pillow and dreamland followed quickly.
I sure wish some things didn't change. I could use a good night's sleep.
"Backward, turn backward, O Time, in thy flight,
Make me a child again just for tonight!"
S. Lyndi
nipntuk
May 22, 2013, 11:07:32 AM5/22/13
to
On 5/21/13 3:15 PM, Socrates wrote:
> On 5/21/2013 11:36 AM, nipntuk wrote:
>
>> You guys kill me.
8<
> On 5/21/2013 11:36 AM, nipntuk wrote:
>
>> You guys kill me.
>> Let the ARAA beat go on, though - never let a fact stand in the way of
>> opinion!
>
> To combat recurring thoughts that your friends are killing you, Dr.
> Frankie prescribes beginning each day with 2mg of Risperdal followed by
> 1 hour nestled comfortably in a Barcalounger. Repeat as needed.
>
What does Dr. Frankie prescribe for his own delusions of doctorhood? :-)
>> opinion!
>
> To combat recurring thoughts that your friends are killing you, Dr.
> Frankie prescribes beginning each day with 2mg of Risperdal followed by
> 1 hour nestled comfortably in a Barcalounger. Repeat as needed.
>
(My Rx is get out of the Barcalounger and go find a rose garden)
nipntuk
May 22, 2013, 11:44:28 AM5/22/13
to
On 5/21/13 3:21 PM, Socrates wrote:
> On 5/21/2013 12:54 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>> On 5/21/2013 2:47 PM, nipntuk wrote:
>>
>>> Over-diagnosis needs to be considered and ended where it occurs, but
>>> it's a far more cogent question as to why the actual incidence of the
>>> disorder is on the rise - without attacking the messenger.
>
>> But that begs the question raised by the article jimbo originally
>> posted: Is the /disorder/ actually on the rise, or is it just the
>> /diagnosis/ that's on the rise? I don't pretend to know the answer, but
>> it seems like a reasonable question.
>
> A Call for Caution on Antipsychotic Drugs
> By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
>
A call for caution when prescribing antipsychotics is a sort of a 'duh'.
> On 5/21/2013 12:54 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>> On 5/21/2013 2:47 PM, nipntuk wrote:
>>
>>> Over-diagnosis needs to be considered and ended where it occurs, but
>>> it's a far more cogent question as to why the actual incidence of the
>>> disorder is on the rise - without attacking the messenger.
>
>> But that begs the question raised by the article jimbo originally
>> posted: Is the /disorder/ actually on the rise, or is it just the
>> /diagnosis/ that's on the rise? I don't pretend to know the answer, but
>> it seems like a reasonable question.
>
> A Call for Caution on Antipsychotic Drugs
> By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
>
I've actually read the CATIE study, and Dr. Friedman, whom I would not
dispute as a very credible person, speaking generally to very credible
set of concerns, misrepresents some of the intent and findings of the
studies (it was a two phase study, which looked at the results of
'traditional' (non-atypical) medications (phase 2) when atypical
antipsychotics had shown limited efficacy (phase 1)).
Beyond that, he's absolutely correct in raising concerns about some of
the trends and practices in his field - though that doesn't mean that
the entirety of it - nor even the mainstream of it - is wholesale screwed.
Again, there is legitimate concern regarding the off-label prescribing
of medications and the growing numbers of people taking them. However,
quite often drugs like Abilify are helpful as adjunctive treatment for
those who may not have complete results from SSRI treatments alone, and
for armchair psychiatrists to take shots at both the physicians who are
attempting to treat disorders, and the people who have those disorders,
as if they have the medical background to form qualified opinions is
ludicrous.
But what bugs me about it is the undertone of contempt - that it's
actually just another vehicle for smug 'better than' pot shots at the
world - a world that advances in ways that don't feel safe or
predictable or comfortable to many aging pundits, who reach for a sense
of control and familiarity by blasting away at every target that pushes
those buttons. But there is also a creeping anti-science, that is part
of the anti-intellectualism of the culture, which drives naturopathic
zeal that is pseudoscience at best and actually stigmatizes people who
truly suffer by asserting that their illnesses are somehow just the
results (as in ADHD) of bad parenting, lack of discipline, and that
effective treatments are really 'poisons' that they are 'bad' or
'stupid' for 'buying into'.
Sister.Lyndi
May 22, 2013, 3:47:54 PM5/22/13
to
Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
> In fairness, overprescription and/or misdiagnosis is probably part of
> the reason this comes up so often. A person is prescribed
> antidepressants when his real problem is alcoholism. Then when he gets
> sober he finds he no longer needs the medication. Unfortunately, some
> geniuses take this as evidence that /nobody/ needs medication once they
> get sober.
Sometimes alcoholism is a person's "treatment" for something else that
> In fairness, overprescription and/or misdiagnosis is probably part of
> the reason this comes up so often. A person is prescribed
> antidepressants when his real problem is alcoholism. Then when he gets
> sober he finds he no longer needs the medication. Unfortunately, some
> geniuses take this as evidence that /nobody/ needs medication once they
> get sober.
ails them - including, but not limited to, depression. When he/she
finally gets sober, he realizes that alcoholism was just the tip of the
iceberg.
S. Lyndi
Sister.Lyndi
May 22, 2013, 4:29:33 PM5/22/13
to
Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> That is fine, as long as they keep it to themselves...The problem is
> that these guys rarely, if ever, no when to keep their bullshit opinions
> to themselves.
>
> I don't know how many times I've heard some old kook, with a shit eating
> grin tell a newcomer that he "don't need that fuckin' medication".....I
> know of one young guy that listened to some know it all old timer and
> went into a tailspin, that damn near caused himself to commit suicide.
Back home on the tundra, we had a lovely young man, who sober and on his
> That is fine, as long as they keep it to themselves...The problem is
> that these guys rarely, if ever, no when to keep their bullshit opinions
> to themselves.
>
> I don't know how many times I've heard some old kook, with a shit eating
> grin tell a newcomer that he "don't need that fuckin' medication".....I
> know of one young guy that listened to some know it all old timer and
> went into a tailspin, that damn near caused himself to commit suicide.
meds, was a delight to have around. Then the real nuts came out of the
woodwork and told him he shouldn't be taking his medication.
It was months before his body was found. I'll leave out the details,
except to say he froze to death.
The assholes whose advice had killed him actually came to his funeral.
Once the service was over and we were outside the church, one of the
large AA friends I was with, quietly turned to one of the assholes and
said "you'd all better leave, I feel a punch coming on."
She left and took her cohorts with her.
S. Lyndi
Skeezix LaRocca
May 23, 2013, 8:22:54 AM5/23/13
to
On 05/22/2013 04:29 PM, Sister.Lyndi wrote:
>
> Back home on the tundra, we had a lovely young man, who sober and on his
> meds, was a delight to have around. Then the real nuts came out of the
> woodwork and told him he shouldn't be taking his medication.
>
> It was months before his body was found. I'll leave out the details,
> except to say he froze to death.
>
> The assholes whose advice had killed him actually came to his funeral.
> Once the service was over and we were outside the church, one of the
> large AA friends I was with, quietly turned to one of the assholes and
> said "you'd all better leave, I feel a punch coming on."
>
> She left and took her cohorts with her.
>
> S. Lyndi
>
Yes Ma'am... I believe this happens a lot more than we realize.
>
> Back home on the tundra, we had a lovely young man, who sober and on his
> meds, was a delight to have around. Then the real nuts came out of the
> woodwork and told him he shouldn't be taking his medication.
>
> It was months before his body was found. I'll leave out the details,
> except to say he froze to death.
>
> The assholes whose advice had killed him actually came to his funeral.
> Once the service was over and we were outside the church, one of the
> large AA friends I was with, quietly turned to one of the assholes and
> said "you'd all better leave, I feel a punch coming on."
>
> She left and took her cohorts with her.
>
> S. Lyndi
>
Hank
May 23, 2013, 1:24:26 PM5/23/13
to
In article <8MidnbN2bNMHIwbM...@giganews.com>,
You wanna bet? Sorry, pal, you lose. No "medical degrees," but
plenty of practical experience and exposure to mental health fields,
working with some very savvy people. I'm not going to be snowed by
"smart paper." I've got a supply of my own, and there is nothing like
a research Ph.D. study to make one aware of how much there is to be
learned---and methodologies for learning.
You don't need to look very far to see that the DSM, which has been
around since the 1950's, was criticized rather heartily in previous
incarnations, and that the latest DSM-5 revision is being roundly
criticized. I've had occasion to use the DSM ever since it was
DSM-II.
Ferinstances of over-diagnosis and over-prescription of medications
aren't at all hard to find. And questions about bright children who
do not perform well in K12 settings aren't new---you can look back at
least to Lewis Terman, "Genetic Studies in Genius" and his "Termites"
work, if you do not want to go back to Rousseau, Heinrich Pestalozzi,
Friedrich Froebel, Maria Montessori, and A.S. Neill.
"Yeah, the kid's a problem in my classroom because he's acting out all
over the place." Is that child acting out simply because he's bored
silly with the lock-step tracking to reach down to the "No Child Left
Behind?" low performer. "Naww--we gonna "diagnose" him with
Asperger's syndrome or ADHD or some other goddam thing in the DSM and
drug him with something to shut him up."
Yes, some people have been helped by use of psychotropics, but that's
not what we're talking about here. So far as I know, most of your
work is with Downs and others for whom a "Flowers for Algernon" story
might be a wonderful thing---if it could be made to last. But here
we've been talking about children whose learning and social modalities
are not well served by K12, and who get drugs instead of an
environment where they might prosper.
Hank
plenty of practical experience and exposure to mental health fields,
working with some very savvy people. I'm not going to be snowed by
"smart paper." I've got a supply of my own, and there is nothing like
a research Ph.D. study to make one aware of how much there is to be
learned---and methodologies for learning.
You don't need to look very far to see that the DSM, which has been
around since the 1950's, was criticized rather heartily in previous
incarnations, and that the latest DSM-5 revision is being roundly
criticized. I've had occasion to use the DSM ever since it was
DSM-II.
Ferinstances of over-diagnosis and over-prescription of medications
aren't at all hard to find. And questions about bright children who
do not perform well in K12 settings aren't new---you can look back at
least to Lewis Terman, "Genetic Studies in Genius" and his "Termites"
work, if you do not want to go back to Rousseau, Heinrich Pestalozzi,
Friedrich Froebel, Maria Montessori, and A.S. Neill.
"Yeah, the kid's a problem in my classroom because he's acting out all
over the place." Is that child acting out simply because he's bored
silly with the lock-step tracking to reach down to the "No Child Left
Behind?" low performer. "Naww--we gonna "diagnose" him with
Asperger's syndrome or ADHD or some other goddam thing in the DSM and
drug him with something to shut him up."
Yes, some people have been helped by use of psychotropics, but that's
not what we're talking about here. So far as I know, most of your
work is with Downs and others for whom a "Flowers for Algernon" story
might be a wonderful thing---if it could be made to last. But here
we've been talking about children whose learning and social modalities
are not well served by K12, and who get drugs instead of an
environment where they might prosper.
Hank
Hank
May 23, 2013, 1:28:08 PM5/23/13
to
In article <b01vtc...@mid.individual.net>,
psychotropics for alcoholics" is Clancy.
Hank
Mark Warner <mhwarner.i...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/21/2013 3:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>>
>> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
>> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
>> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
>> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>
>That one *really* sets me off. I've run people out of meetings for that
>one.
>
And don't forget, Mark, that one of the biggest insisters of "no
>On 5/21/2013 3:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>>
>> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
>> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
>> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
>> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>
>That one *really* sets me off. I've run people out of meetings for that
>one.
>
psychotropics for alcoholics" is Clancy.
Hank
Skeezix LaRocca
May 23, 2013, 2:02:07 PM5/23/13
to
On 05/23/2013 01:24 PM, Hank wrote:
>
> "Yeah, the kid's a problem in my classroom because he's acting out all
> over the place." Is that child acting out simply because he's bored
> silly with the lock-step tracking to reach down to the "No Child Left
> Behind?" low performer. "Naww--we gonna "diagnose" him with
> Asperger's syndrome or ADHD or some other goddam thing in the DSM and
> drug him with something to shut him up."
>
I think you're on to something...I know this couple who have this kid,
>
> "Yeah, the kid's a problem in my classroom because he's acting out all
> over the place." Is that child acting out simply because he's bored
> silly with the lock-step tracking to reach down to the "No Child Left
> Behind?" low performer. "Naww--we gonna "diagnose" him with
> Asperger's syndrome or ADHD or some other goddam thing in the DSM and
> drug him with something to shut him up."
>
and I'll stop just short of calling him a "bad seed"...If anything, he's
just a brilliant little fucker that can easily bullshit most adults,
including school counselors. This kid was a huge pain in the ass at
home, and in school, and would throw a convincing shit fit every time
his majesty didn't get his way...The school system labeled him bi-polar,
no doubt in an effort to free themselves from scrutiny.
He got kicked out of almost every school in the district, until he
landed in one school, in which the counselor was smarter than he was.
The counselor was talking to the dad of the hellion, and asked him if he
could be frank and off the record, to which the Dad said yes...The
counselor told him that the kid was not in any way, shape or form
bi-polar, and that whoever threw that bullshit diagnosis on the table
should be fired...No, their son was just a brilliant asshole that knew
how to play people, and should have a boot up his ass, and all
privileges taken away the next time he got out of pocket.
They followed the advice, and after one boot in the ass, and the kid
having the car keys pulled, and being presented with a bill to replace
the full length mirror to replace the one the kid broke in anger,
problem solved.
I'm not trying to imply this is a fit for all, or even most kids, but it
sure does happen a lot.
nipntuk
May 23, 2013, 2:07:47 PM5/23/13
to
Intervention Center of Colorado - serving the most severely impacted,
dually diagnosed people in the State of Colorado (operating multiple
residential units, including SOMB and intensive socio-behavioral locked
facilities), I Directed 4 Intermediate Care Facilities, supervising high
level professional staff, including MDs behaviorists, psychologists and
Psychiatric RNs.
I operated the largest residential continuum in the State of Colorado,
and have built my career as a Host Home provider serving the most
challenging Dually Diagnosed individuals in the system for over 36 years.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Mark Warner
May 23, 2013, 3:01:57 PM5/23/13
to
*town* at the earliest opportunity.
Hank
May 23, 2013, 3:08:32 PM5/23/13
to
In article <f96dnYRej4NuxwPM...@giganews.com>,
to give you an opportunity to correct this if needed. Your detailing
what you do doesn't burst any bubble---it clarifies where you are
coming from. But I think it's very different turf from areas where I
have direct working knowledge.
I think that where I am coming from has some fairly major differences
when we're talking about school situations. I'll give you one cite
that describes Henry and Adelaide Patey and Hampshire Country School
as I knew it quite well. I worked on-and-off with and for Mr. and
Mrs. Patey for some years in the sixties and seventies and spent a
great deal of hands-on time at the school with the students.
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=6&xmldoc=1961125835dxtc1223_11131.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7
This discussion is about a case in tax law, and quite by coincidence,
I knew Hendrick Sr. (not the son) and Hamden Hall school. Hampshire
Country School is an entirely different place today, so reading a current
description isn't appropriate.
This is hardly my only acquaintance with school issues---I'm involved
with them here today, and have been for the better part of fifty
years. And yes, I know about locked wards, reading the signs
suggesting that such is needed.
Hank
nipntuk <car...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/23/13 11:24 AM, Hank wrote:
>> In article <8MidnbN2bNMHIwbM...@giganews.com>,
>>
>On 5/23/13 11:24 AM, Hank wrote:
>> In article <8MidnbN2bNMHIwbM...@giganews.com>,
>>
>> Yes, some people have been helped by use of psychotropics, but that's
>> not what we're talking about here. So far as I know, most of your
>> work is with Downs and others for whom a "Flowers for Algernon" story
>> might be a wonderful thing---if it could be made to last. But here
>> we've been talking about children whose learning and social modalities
>> are not well served by K12, and who get drugs instead of an
>> environment where they might prosper.
>>
>> Hank
>>
>Hank, As far as you know is wrong. I was the Director for Behavior
>Intervention Center of Colorado - serving the most severely impacted,
>dually diagnosed people in the State of Colorado (operating multiple
>residential units, including SOMB and intensive socio-behavioral locked
>facilities), I Directed 4 Intermediate Care Facilities, supervising high
>level professional staff, including MDs behaviorists, psychologists and
>Psychiatric RNs.
>I operated the largest residential continuum in the State of Colorado,
>and have built my career as a Host Home provider serving the most
>challenging Dually Diagnosed individuals in the system for over 36 years.
> Sorry to burst your bubble.
>
I think, Steve, you should realize that I stated my "so far as I know"
>> not what we're talking about here. So far as I know, most of your
>> work is with Downs and others for whom a "Flowers for Algernon" story
>> might be a wonderful thing---if it could be made to last. But here
>> we've been talking about children whose learning and social modalities
>> are not well served by K12, and who get drugs instead of an
>> environment where they might prosper.
>>
>> Hank
>>
>Hank, As far as you know is wrong. I was the Director for Behavior
>Intervention Center of Colorado - serving the most severely impacted,
>dually diagnosed people in the State of Colorado (operating multiple
>residential units, including SOMB and intensive socio-behavioral locked
>facilities), I Directed 4 Intermediate Care Facilities, supervising high
>level professional staff, including MDs behaviorists, psychologists and
>Psychiatric RNs.
>I operated the largest residential continuum in the State of Colorado,
>and have built my career as a Host Home provider serving the most
>challenging Dually Diagnosed individuals in the system for over 36 years.
> Sorry to burst your bubble.
>
to give you an opportunity to correct this if needed. Your detailing
what you do doesn't burst any bubble---it clarifies where you are
coming from. But I think it's very different turf from areas where I
have direct working knowledge.
I think that where I am coming from has some fairly major differences
when we're talking about school situations. I'll give you one cite
that describes Henry and Adelaide Patey and Hampshire Country School
as I knew it quite well. I worked on-and-off with and for Mr. and
Mrs. Patey for some years in the sixties and seventies and spent a
great deal of hands-on time at the school with the students.
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=6&xmldoc=1961125835dxtc1223_11131.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7
This discussion is about a case in tax law, and quite by coincidence,
I knew Hendrick Sr. (not the son) and Hamden Hall school. Hampshire
Country School is an entirely different place today, so reading a current
description isn't appropriate.
This is hardly my only acquaintance with school issues---I'm involved
with them here today, and have been for the better part of fifty
years. And yes, I know about locked wards, reading the signs
suggesting that such is needed.
Hank
Hank
May 23, 2013, 3:11:52 PM5/23/13
to
In article <b077d0...@mid.individual.net>,
2002. It was anything but an "AA" talk. That was my second exposure
to that blowhard, who didn't give an AA talk the first time, either,
and I'm not looking for a third.
Hank
Mark Warner <mhwarner.i...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/23/2013 1:28 PM, Hank wrote:
>> Mark Warner <mhwarner.i...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/21/2013 3:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>>>> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
>>>> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
>>>> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
>>>> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>>> That one *really* sets me off. I've run people out of meetings for that
>>> one.
>>
>> And don't forget, Mark, that one of the biggest insisters of "no
>> psychotropics for alcoholics" is Clancy.
>
> From what I've heard about him, I think I'd run ol' Clancy out of
>*town* at the earliest opportunity.
>
That goddam near happened when I heard him speak in Denver along about
>On 5/23/2013 1:28 PM, Hank wrote:
>> Mark Warner <mhwarner.i...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/21/2013 3:10 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>>>> I know where you're coming from.... It upsets me when I sometimes hear
>>>> people in AA imply that nobody would really need antidepressants if they
>>>> got their "spiritual condition" in order. But I don't think anyone in
>>>> this discussion was really suggesting that.
>>> That one *really* sets me off. I've run people out of meetings for that
>>> one.
>>
>> And don't forget, Mark, that one of the biggest insisters of "no
>> psychotropics for alcoholics" is Clancy.
>
> From what I've heard about him, I think I'd run ol' Clancy out of
>*town* at the earliest opportunity.
>
2002. It was anything but an "AA" talk. That was my second exposure
to that blowhard, who didn't give an AA talk the first time, either,
and I'm not looking for a third.
Hank
nipntuk
May 23, 2013, 4:20:29 PM5/23/13
to
'misdiagnosed'
kid with neuro-behavioral issues, coming both from having abnormal EEG
rhythms until age 15, and from a background of traumatic physical abuse
- yet also having extreme 'peaks' in my areas of proficiency which were
ignored in the course of both parochial and public education. So there's
that - which I attribute the bulk of my practical abilities to in the
course of my working life.
They ignored the fact that I was reading at an 11th grade level in the
4th grade, and gave me phenothiazines to moderate my 'hyperactivity'.
So it's not like I don't have a pretty keen appreciation or sensitivity
for the issues.
As well, I took an deep interest - especially in my early career, in
early childhood development, and worked in classroom settings as part of
my experience before going into administrative work. I was fascinated
with developmental psychology and linguistics, and in addition to the
staples of Piaget and Brazelton, Gibson, Erikson and others whom I've
forgotten by now, I took a lot of interest in some of the less
conventional models of people like Selma Fraiberg and then the more
recent waves of neurobiologists.
> I think that where I am coming from has some fairly major differences
> when we're talking about school situations. I'll give you one cite
> that describes Henry and Adelaide Patey and Hampshire Country School
> as I knew it quite well. I worked on-and-off with and for Mr. and
> Mrs. Patey for some years in the sixties and seventies and spent a
> great deal of hands-on time at the school with the students.
> http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=6&xmldoc=1961125835dxtc1223_11131.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7
>
> This discussion is about a case in tax law, and quite by coincidence,
> I knew Hendrick Sr. (not the son) and Hamden Hall school. Hampshire
> Country School is an entirely different place today, so reading a current
> description isn't appropriate.
>
>
> This is hardly my only acquaintance with school issues---I'm involved
> with them here today, and have been for the better part of fifty
> years. And yes, I know about locked wards, reading the signs
> suggesting that such is needed.
>
> Hank
old, (Lewis Terman?) and refer to cases and issues from the 60's, or
such rather bizzare experimental stuff as Summerhill (Talk about
controversial?!) When what we're speaking to is neuro-behavioral and
psychiatric disorders of children in the year 2013?
The classroom conditons, socio-economics, environmental and genetic
factors, stressors, technologies, and so on, are so radically removed
from the classrooms of the 1960s, I wouldn't know where or how to begin.
We're speaking to advancements in understanding and science from a
different planet by comparison, and to medications and treatments which
were unimagined in those days. I'm saying this while mindful of issues
which point toward a roll-back of some approaches that now seek to
diminish the role of atypical antipsychotics in favor of older SSRI's,
for instance - and we're *STILL* talking about drugs that were not
imagined in the 60's and 70's, when phenothyazines, benzodiazepines, and
tricyclics were the front-line psychotropic drugs of the day.
Plus, you've lumped things as disparate as maladaptive or unrecognized
gifted kids together with Aspberger's and ADHD into one conversation
which comes off, at it's heart, as blanketly hostile to schools and
teachers, as if they're all just soulless functionaries, at best
indifferent to kids with differences and challenges. I vehemently
disagree. I maintain that over-prescription and over-diagnosis remains
the exception and not the rule. I don't see anything qualified or
objective in what you've stated to refute that.
The discussion is too big for this venue, but you simply can't make
these sweeping generalities as if what you say applies to all schools,
all kids, all physicians, or all disorders - or even most. And again,
understanding the impulse to dismiss organic or neurochemical causes of
'behavioral problems', ultimately, it is stigmatizing and retrograde
thinking to assign responsibility solely to external causality. For the
parent who loves their kid immensely, and has been through a grind of
therapies, teaching strategies, counselors and methods, to finally see
progress when their kid gets proper treatment with medication, only to
be shamed and guilted by finger wagging amateurs and told that if they
only loved their kids more, disciplined them better, ad nauseum - these
conversations are actually quite cruel. Very much like alcoholics being
told that their problem is a moral issue, not a 'real' disorder.
Sister.Lyndi
May 24, 2013, 7:34:55 AM5/24/13
to
Hank wrote:
> That goddam near happened when I heard him speak in Denver along about
> 2002. It was anything but an "AA" talk. That was my second exposure
> to that blowhard, who didn't give an AA talk the first time, either,
> and I'm not looking for a third.
He gets to hug famous drunks who got sober in AA. And he gets to do a
> That goddam near happened when I heard him speak in Denver along about
> 2002. It was anything but an "AA" talk. That was my second exposure
> to that blowhard, who didn't give an AA talk the first time, either,
> and I'm not looking for a third.
lot of glad handing too. Then they get their picture in the paper and on
the net - for being sober in AA.
So much for traditions. Perhaps I should stop being so careful when I'm
interviewed locally. Who knows, I could become an infamous sober drunk. :-)
http://preview.tinyurl.com/oezmaw8
Click on the pictures and you'll find lotsa folks you'll recognize.
S. Lyndi
Charlie M. 1958
May 24, 2013, 8:42:59 AM5/24/13
to
didn't mean that they had become free from all the character defects we
humans are prone to. People who end up on the AA speaker circuit are
usually there, at least in part, because they like to be the center of
attention. ("Selfishness and self-centeredness! That, we think, is the
root of our troubles.")
This may sound sort of head-in-the-sand-ish, but the main reason I don't
socialize much with my AA friends outside of meetings is that I don't
really want to see their "mortal" side. Intellectually, I know that the
vast majority of folks cannot possibly live 100% up to the ideals we
talk about in the rooms. But I'd still rather just think of 'Old Joe" as
the guy who has given me so many wise nuggets, than hang around with him
and have to see him as the guy who also kicks his dog and disrespects
his wife.
Nobody's perfect. It's not that I'm trying to pretend they are. But I do
better if I use those folks' /best/ behavior when setting my personal
standards.
Jimbo
May 24, 2013, 11:40:43 AM5/24/13
to
On 24 May, 08:42, "Charlie M. 1958" wrote:
People who end up on the AA speaker circuit are
> usually there, at least in part, because they like to be the center of
> attention. ("Selfishness and self-centeredness! That, we think, is the
> root of our troubles.")
I think it is a case of different strokes for different folks. Some
People who end up on the AA speaker circuit are
> usually there, at least in part, because they like to be the center of
> attention. ("Selfishness and self-centeredness! That, we think, is the
> root of our troubles.")
AA's can put together an interesting coherent message
and some can't. Some are good at service work and some aren't. I'm not
good at service work b/c I did not tolerate fools well but I'm able
to
do history presentation in a quick moving method, with some humor
tossed in.
I have travelled in AA and probably spoken out of town 40 to 50 times,
usually on history and to me it was a chore. Give up a weekend, spend
hours
answering stupid questions, warding off idiots who just want to argue.
Eat shit food and stay in crummy hotels and to top it off I can
remember
3 times when I had to pay my own expenses as the committee was so
fucked up that they lost a ton of money.
One other joy is that some AA idiots think that b/c I'm from out of
town that I'm a safe confessor. I've had people dump stories of rape,
murder, theft
and a dozen stories of fucking the sponsors wife.
Now I admit that once I had a guy offer a deal that if I would put
forward his name if asked to recommend speakers, that he would do the
same. I turned my back on him.
I found that most did it b/c they were asked to.
Mark Warner
May 24, 2013, 11:54:08 AM5/24/13
to
On 05/24/2013 11:40 AM, Jimbo wrote:
>
> I found that most did it b/c they were asked to.
I like to think I can put forth a reasonably interesting talk with a few
>
> I found that most did it b/c they were asked to.
insights and humor and all that, but I can count the number of times
I've been asked to speak in the last 24 years on one hand.
Seems that those that do the asking are concerned about the *content*,
not the style.
Jimbo
May 24, 2013, 2:09:29 PM5/24/13
to
Jimbo
May 24, 2013, 2:11:22 PM5/24/13
to
On 24 May, 11:54, Mark Warner wrote:
> Seems that those that do the asking are concerned about the *content*,
> not the style.
Maybe it behooves you to inventory your content:-)
> not the style.
Mark Warner
May 24, 2013, 2:21:48 PM5/24/13
to
I be less that honest and forthright?
Jimbo
May 24, 2013, 2:40:28 PM5/24/13
to
On 24 May, 14:21, Mark Warner wrote:
> My story is my story, my experience is my experience. Are you suggesting
> I be less that honest and forthright?
Of course not but there must be a reason. Do you attend meetings
> My story is my story, my experience is my experience. Are you suggesting
> I be less that honest and forthright?
outside of your home group?
Does your talk grate against mainstream AA experience? Are you
recognized as a guy who marches against the tide?
If I knew you better, it might help but I can only surmise.
Charlie M. 1958
May 24, 2013, 2:45:24 PM5/24/13
to
On 5/24/2013 1:40 PM, Jimbo wrote:
> Does your talk grate against mainstream AA experience? Are you
> recognized as a guy who marches against the tide?
> If I knew you better, it might help but I can only surmise.
>
Sounds like you know him pretty well to me. :-)
> Does your talk grate against mainstream AA experience? Are you
> recognized as a guy who marches against the tide?
> If I knew you better, it might help but I can only surmise.
>
Skeezix LaRocca
May 24, 2013, 3:04:18 PM5/24/13
to
On 05/23/2013 03:11 PM, Hank wrote:
> That goddam near happened when I heard him speak in Denver along about
> 2002. It was anything but an "AA" talk. That was my second exposure
> to that blowhard, who didn't give an AA talk the first time, either,
> and I'm not looking for a third.
>
> Hank
I agree...Up Clancy's Guru Ass.
> That goddam near happened when I heard him speak in Denver along about
> 2002. It was anything but an "AA" talk. That was my second exposure
> to that blowhard, who didn't give an AA talk the first time, either,
> and I'm not looking for a third.
>
> Hank
Mark Warner
May 24, 2013, 3:08:03 PM5/24/13
to
It's not like I'm pining to be asked to speak. Just making an
observation. I'm well known enough in the local AA community for people
to know that my story probably wouldn't be considered "mainstream" or
"conventional".
What I've done in the past is address the questions, doubts, misgivings,
and bullshit attitudes that new people -- especially those that are
attending under court order -- have. I speak from experience, since I
had them all myself. It makes for a cut-the-crap, you-can't-shit-me kind
of talk. Not much "Happy, Joyous, & Free!". Especially when I talk about
the personal responsibility stuff and the 9th Step. As we've seen right
here, those are touchy subjects even for those with a lot of time under
their belts.
Socrates
May 24, 2013, 3:08:24 PM5/24/13
to
assimilated.
Skeezix LaRocca
May 24, 2013, 3:32:18 PM5/24/13
to
On 05/24/2013 08:42 AM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>
> I learned early on that just because someone had long-term sobriety
> didn't mean that they had become free from all the character defects we
> humans are prone to. People who end up on the AA speaker circuit are
> usually there, at least in part, because they like to be the center of
> attention. ("Selfishness and self-centeredness! That, we think, is the
> root of our troubles.")
>
> This may sound sort of head-in-the-sand-ish, but the main reason I don't
> socialize much with my AA friends outside of meetings is that I don't
> really want to see their "mortal" side. Intellectually, I know that the
> vast majority of folks cannot possibly live 100% up to the ideals we
> talk about in the rooms. But I'd still rather just think of 'Old Joe" as
> the guy who has given me so many wise nuggets, than hang around with him
> and have to see him as the guy who also kicks his dog and disrespects
> his wife.
>
> Nobody's perfect. It's not that I'm trying to pretend they are. But I do
> better if I use those folks' /best/ behavior when setting my personal
> standards.
Ya prick...I just hate it when you talk good common sense...I could not
>
> I learned early on that just because someone had long-term sobriety
> didn't mean that they had become free from all the character defects we
> humans are prone to. People who end up on the AA speaker circuit are
> usually there, at least in part, because they like to be the center of
> attention. ("Selfishness and self-centeredness! That, we think, is the
> root of our troubles.")
>
> This may sound sort of head-in-the-sand-ish, but the main reason I don't
> socialize much with my AA friends outside of meetings is that I don't
> really want to see their "mortal" side. Intellectually, I know that the
> vast majority of folks cannot possibly live 100% up to the ideals we
> talk about in the rooms. But I'd still rather just think of 'Old Joe" as
> the guy who has given me so many wise nuggets, than hang around with him
> and have to see him as the guy who also kicks his dog and disrespects
> his wife.
>
> Nobody's perfect. It's not that I'm trying to pretend they are. But I do
> better if I use those folks' /best/ behavior when setting my personal
> standards.
agree more.
One thing I've noticed (at least with my program contacts) is that if a
guy sits in meetings and never reveals how he still can be an asshole,
but instead, talks only of how he doesn't do this or that anymore, and
is nothing more than a verbal Big Book, that is the guy I really try to
not socialize with....Chances are the guy is hiding some stuff.
Give me the guy who is honest any day...I heard a guy say once..Me and
the old lady were driving down the road one day and the bitch would just
not STFU, so I told her...One more word and I'm gonna throw you in the
trunk and push it in the lake, but the more I thought about it, I
figured it'd be a shitty day to go to jail, so I gave her a pass.
When some old bat called him out on it, he just said that he was being
honest...That was the way he felt right then....Her, being the local AA
Go To Broad just could not let it rest...She called him a pig, to which
he bowed his head, thought a minute and replied..."Quit getting your
tits in an uproar, you old hag." For once n her life, she was speechless.
At least the guy let you know he was still human.
Skeezix LaRocca
May 24, 2013, 3:38:05 PM5/24/13
to
On 05/24/2013 11:54 AM, Mark Warner wrote:
>
> Seems that those that do the asking are concerned about the *content*,
> not the style.
>
I have a buddy with 25 yrs. or so in and he was complaining as to how
>
> Seems that those that do the asking are concerned about the *content*,
> not the style.
>
they always ask him to speak...I told him two things that keep the
requests down are to let people know you are an agnostic, or atheist,
providing that is the case...They never will ask you.
If you're a believer and want to limit the times you speak, set a
limit..A guy in my home group tells people...I do one a year...I'm good
for xxx ammount of months...Works good for him.
Charlie M. 1958
May 24, 2013, 3:39:44 PM5/24/13
to
On 5/24/2013 2:32 PM, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
>
> Give me the guy who is honest any day...I heard a guy say once..Me and
> the old lady were driving down the road one day and the bitch would just
> not STFU, so I told her...One more word and I'm gonna throw you in the
> trunk and push it in the lake, but the more I thought about it, I
> figured it'd be a shitty day to go to jail, so I gave her a pass.
>
> When some old bat called him out on it, he just said that he was being
> honest...That was the way he felt right then....Her, being the local AA
> Go To Broad just could not let it rest...She called him a pig, to which
> he bowed his head, thought a minute and replied..."Quit getting your
> tits in an uproar, you old hag." For once n her life, she was speechless.
>
> At least the guy let you know he was still human.
>
I think I know that guy's twin! George pisses a lot of people off, but
>
> Give me the guy who is honest any day...I heard a guy say once..Me and
> the old lady were driving down the road one day and the bitch would just
> not STFU, so I told her...One more word and I'm gonna throw you in the
> trunk and push it in the lake, but the more I thought about it, I
> figured it'd be a shitty day to go to jail, so I gave her a pass.
>
> When some old bat called him out on it, he just said that he was being
> honest...That was the way he felt right then....Her, being the local AA
> Go To Broad just could not let it rest...She called him a pig, to which
> he bowed his head, thought a minute and replied..."Quit getting your
> tits in an uproar, you old hag." For once n her life, she was speechless.
>
> At least the guy let you know he was still human.
>
most folks don't mind him because they know he's just telling it like it
his for him.
Skeezix LaRocca
May 24, 2013, 3:40:29 PM5/24/13
to
On 05/24/2013 02:45 PM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>
> Sounds like you know him pretty well to me. :-)
Sounds like that no good Warner bastard to me too. :)
>
> Sounds like you know him pretty well to me. :-)
Skeezix LaRocca
May 24, 2013, 3:48:26 PM5/24/13
to
members of the area.
First one there in a crisis...Last one to throw in the towel, but will
not tolerate *any* bullshit.
Jimbo
May 24, 2013, 4:21:13 PM5/24/13
to
On 24 May, 15:08, Socrates wrote:
> There is no place in a cult for terminal uniqueness. He must be
> assimilated.
The hive cannot tolerate uniqueness.
> There is no place in a cult for terminal uniqueness. He must be
> assimilated.
Tommy
May 24, 2013, 4:37:32 PM5/24/13
to
"Jimbo" <jbl...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:634132c5-21c7-4783...@r3g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Unless its commonplace -
I wonder why they say things like "the fella with the bad leg" - or the
fellow with the odd eye.. the guy with the big belly -
Never hear them saying the fella with the good legs or the guy with the even
eyes, or ordinary belly :-))
I mean being ordinary is pretty ehhhem unique yeah :-))
Uniquely ordinary Tommy
news:634132c5-21c7-4783...@r3g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
I wonder why they say things like "the fella with the bad leg" - or the
fellow with the odd eye.. the guy with the big belly -
Never hear them saying the fella with the good legs or the guy with the even
eyes, or ordinary belly :-))
I mean being ordinary is pretty ehhhem unique yeah :-))
Uniquely ordinary Tommy
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