Worst speaker ever......
Michael H.
Friday night
Candle light
Promises meeting
This guy...18 years "sober" shared about the promises one by one. And as he
went through he explained how he hadn't gotten the majority of them.
The one I just couldn't believe was "... we will know peace, no I don't
think I've ever known peace." Holy shit man!
I mean this is exactly contrary to my experience. And it is a "promise" of
the program. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would still be
actively participating in a program where the promises had not come true for
them...18 years later. The "Give it time" shtick just wouldn't work for me.
Then after his share, after half of the room had left, the few that had
stayed spent a half an hour acknowledging this guy for his "program of
honesty" !
I just wanted to scream at them. In response to what someone had just said
about the wonderful "Pillar of AA" that this guy was, and as he was humbly
sitting there " Thank you, thank you..." the guy I was with and I both
looked at each other in shock and just cracked up out loud! Thinking like
..." Are they at the same fuckin meeting?!
"That was the best part of the meeting for me.
So....
I figured my job for me was that I had best get some sort of value out of
it.
So I thought...
Perhaps this guy is leaps and bounds above where he was when he came in.
or
Maybe this is an example of the danger of hanging out and not working the
steps.
Kind of taken as a warning by example.
I dunno...freaked me out.
Any help here?...
It just seems that at an open meeting it might be a good idea to have
someone share that has a grasp of successfully achieving the results as
promised.
So anyway,
I walked past him after the meeting and quickly said, "Thanks for sharing",
He stopped and got this big smile and said "You're welcome!" So pleased was
he with his contribution.
Peace
Michael H.
Audio on:
http://www.zombo.com/
Virtualoso
<mgh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hows your promised peace doing with this stuff? Or the promise about
usefulness for others?
Michael H.
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message
news:221220031444098010%virtu...@dot.com...
Hey...
HEY NOW...lets not go there!
:)
Peace
Michael H.
Srgnt Bilkoo
"Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rSJFb.2128$rZ6.1...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
My old sponsor Hank P would say - some are sicker than others - but my first
sponsor Ted G liked to remind me that every meeting had a message for me.
Still I continue to overreact to some speakers. BTW - I love candlelight
meetings - they help to mellow me out. Bill Sap would say - as long as you
didn't drink it's no big deal. Two of these guys are dead but I can still
hear them to this day.
Srgnt Bilkoo
he stops at an out-of-town meeting and is asked to speak - not sure but I
think his name is Jim B. <g>
"Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rSJFb.2128$rZ6.1...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
>
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>This guy...18 years "sober" shared about the promises one by one. And as he
>went through he explained how he hadn't gotten the majority of them.
>The one I just couldn't believe was "... we will know peace, no I don't
>think I've ever known peace." Holy shit man!
>
>I mean this is exactly contrary to my experience. And it is a "promise" of
>the program. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would still be
>actively participating in a program where the promises had not come true for
>them...18 years later. The "Give it time" shtick just wouldn't work for me.
>
>Then after his share, after half of the room had left, the few that had
>stayed spent a half an hour acknowledging this guy for his "program of
>honesty" !
>
>I just wanted to scream at them. In response to what someone had just said
>about the wonderful "Pillar of AA" that this guy was, and as he was humbly
>sitting there " Thank you, thank you..." the guy I was with and I both
>looked at each other in shock and just cracked up out loud! Thinking like
>..." Are they at the same fuckin meeting?!
So the group's response was either to judge him or patronize
him....hmmmm that can't be good.
My experience with speakers is this- sometimes the best entertainers
as the biggest assholes. Giving someone a podium and a mike doesn't
qualify them as being wise or funny- it just makes them louder.
If I expect that it does, then I've missed the point
Craig S.
news:rSJFb.2128$rZ6.1...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
> Then after his share, after half of the room had left, the few that had
> stayed spent a half an hour acknowledging this guy for his "program of
> honesty" !
>
> I just wanted to scream at them. In response to what someone had just said
> about the wonderful "Pillar of AA" that this guy was, and as he was humbly
> sitting there " Thank you, thank you..." the guy I was with and I both
> looked at each other in shock and just cracked up out loud! Thinking like
> ..." Are they at the same fuckin meeting?!
> "That was the best part of the meeting for me.
>
> So....
>
> I figured my job for me was that I had best get some sort of value out of
> it.
>
> So I thought...
> Perhaps this guy is leaps and bounds above where he was when he came in.
> or
> Maybe this is an example of the danger of hanging out and not working the
> steps.
> Kind of taken as a warning by example.
> I dunno...freaked me out.
> Any help here?...
Program of honesty, huh? Why didn't you simply tell the guy how full of
shit he is? IYO, of course. Yeah, that might have been just the push he
needed to get the *real* program like you have, Michael.
Michael H.
"Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:vufb2ag...@corp.supernews.com...
Now...
Your absolutely right.
If only I would have been honest with him.
Right.
First of all
I didn't say he was full of shit. Although.... ;)
Just that he has supposedly worked this program and not achieved the
promises.
18 years without the intended result....I wouldn't have lasted.
Also that the choice of him as a speaker might have been shortsighted...or
last minute.
And yes...my program is the "real" one of course.
It involves the steps and the promises.
This guy can do whatever he wants...
I just don't expect to hear it sold to me as AA from the main speaker at an
AA mtg.
But I could be wrong....
Peace
Michael H.
Michael H.
"GaryE" <garye...@nadaswbell.net> wrote in message
news:40efuvsjqg7j25voe...@4ax.com...
> >Candle light
> >Promises meeting
> >
> >
I shoulda known this would happen.
But if only you were there .... ;)
Peace
Michael H.
Jim Blair
"Michael H." wrote
Perhaps this guy is leaps and bounds above where he was when he came in.
BINGO! Success in AA is not measured by where one stands today but rather by
the distance that one has travelled.
Jim
Virtualoso
<mgh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just that he has supposedly worked this program and not achieved the
> promises.
> 18 years without the intended result....I wouldn't have lasted.
> Also that the choice of him as a speaker might have been shortsighted...or
> last minute.
> And yes...my program is the "real" one of course.
> It involves the steps and the promises.
"Sobriety -- freedom from alcohol -- through the teaching and practice
of the Twelve Steps is the sole purpose of an AA group"
- Alcoholics Anonymous
That freedom from alcohol is the achievement. The teaching and practice
of the Twelve Steps is the program. Interpreting "promises" otherwise
isn't necessary.
Erwin
"Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rSJFb.2128$rZ6.1...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
>
> Candle light
> Promises meeting
<snip>
>
> So I thought...
> Perhaps this guy is leaps and bounds above where he was when he came in
Or, at the least, he hasn't gotten any worse.
--
Erwin
Michael H.
You crack me up!
Peace
Michael H.
Michael H.
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:42:15 GMT, "Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"GaryE" <garye...@nadaswbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:40efuvsjqg7j25voe...@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:03:03 GMT, "Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Friday night
> >> >Candle light
> >> >Promises meeting
> >> >
> >> >
> >> love and tolerance is our code.....
> >
> >I shoulda known this would happen.
> >But if only you were there .... ;)
>
They have,
I'm putting up with this shit pretty well. :)
Peace
Michael H.
What is tolerance?
It is the consequence of humanity.
We are all formed of frailty and error;
let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly
that is the first law of nature.
Voltaire
Michael H.
"Jim Blair" <jbl...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:w0QFb.57282$NT6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
Yea! :)
See I was doin OK. :)
Thanks.
But then again...
As he was the speaker at an open AA meeting I have no access to his past.
Hence no personal certainty at all of the distance he may have traveled.
Only his example of a program that produced ...him!
Whoa. Scary.
I'm not talking generalities here.
This specific person as a speaker at an open AA meeting.
He said himself ...
"In 18 years I have never known peace."
Virt said that as long as he's sober - not drinking - he's achieved the goal
of AA.
"That freedom from alcohol is the achievement. The teaching and practice
of the Twelve Steps is the program. Interpreting "promises" otherwise
isn't necessary."
I say Bahh to that jabbernab. :))) ( You can quote me...)!!
If you expect us to hang around AA without the promises being realized...
Holy god man! You must be nutz!
I can join RR or SOS or hang with stamfa for that.!
Hell...they are AA PROMISES!
Gauran-fuckin-teed - AA PROMISES!
Not from some fringe literature...from the first 164.
Rarely have we seen a person fail....
Cannot or will not completely give themselves...
They will always materialize if we work for them...
Cut out the esoteric bullshit and face the facts.
Damn....
I read the book.
I think I understood it.
I wonder about some of these interpretations.
Interpretation is the revenge of the intellectual upon art
Susan Sontag
Peace
Michael H.
Man...this is fun!
Maybe I'll even start fighting with Tom! ...
No wait...Tom...don't do it...please.....
I was just kidding! You are an expert.
I'm just a youngster here..........
No match.
Kimba
wrote:
>So anyway,
>I walked past him after the meeting and quickly said, "Thanks for sharing",
>He stopped and got this big smile and said "You're welcome!" So pleased was
>he with his contribution.
So long as one goes to a meeting, expecting to "get" something, rather
than expecting to "give" something, one is likely to be disappointed.
Progress is measured with an individual yardstick.
And do you know - sometimes, I DO regret the past.
And sometimes, I'm not very happy, with either new or old happiness.
Sometimes, I'm faced with something and I have no darned idea of what
I'm supposed to do next. None. No intuitive answers. No direction.
Nada.
I have often been afraid, though fear seems to be in the backseat,
rather than behind the wheel, these days.
There have been days on this journey when I'm sure my only
contribution at a meeting was to raise someone else's gratitude level.
It's life, in all its fullness.
Now get your Christmas thong and lil green tights on - it's time for a
pahty!!!
Hugs,
Kimba
--You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did better. Maya Angelou
Tex
wrote:
>
>A fit spiritual condition is not necessary for sobriety either. The
>biggest assholes in AA are still sober. The biggest know it all
>bastards. The condescending authorities. These are your 'Walking
>BB's" The same people who use the BB as sadists....who don't miss the
>slimmest of opportunities in trying to pick apart, denigrate, and
>demean other people, assuredly trying to elevate their own pathetic
>and pitiful selves. Look around you in this NG. Love, tolerance,
>humility, practicing the principles, when you were wrong, promptly
>admit it,and all the spiritual aspects are exceptions, not the rule.
Sure a fit spiritual condition is necessary....it takes one hell of a
fit spiritual condition to be one of the biggest assholes in AA to
stay sober....This ng and all it's clown's (self included) is
kindergarten compared to life in the big city as you are fond of
putting it. I figure around here you find not so much exceptions,
rather more the rule you find people with an outlet not to be
doormats.
So the guy hadn't realized the promises after 18 years! Big fucking
deal! Let us all judge the poor muthafucker without realizing the guy
ain't a quitter...18 years is a pretty good stretch to keep coming
back...maybe when he speaks at 20 or 22 years sober he will have all
the world by the tail and the promises plus more and then be the
greatest speaker ever heard....one thing though the chances of that
happening are slim if he toss' the towel in now at 18 because he
doesn't measure up to someone else's measuring stick.
For all I know there might be a God and he will strike me with his
spiritual wand one of these days....if it happens I hope I chew the
crow slowly so as not to choke to death.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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F.H.
> So the guy hadn't realized the promises after 18 years! Big fucking
> deal! Let us all judge the poor muthafucker without realizing the guy
> ain't a quitter...18 years is a pretty good stretch to keep coming
> back...maybe when he speaks at 20 or 22 years sober he will have all
> the world by the tail and the promises plus more and then be the
> greatest speaker ever heard....one thing though the chances of that
> happening are slim if he toss' the towel in now at 18 because he
> doesn't measure up to someone else's measuring stick.
I likely would have appreciated his honesty. For most "knowing peace"
(definition varies) is most elusive. One has to give up (surrender) a
lot IMO to "know peace," like ego and resentments and taking
inventories.
Takes some ego to get up and speak. You get some praise, some
criticism. Peace? I dunno. I like to fantasize about peace but I've
sure grown accustomed to my quick reflexes, kind of addicted to my pet
peeves. Got a hunch I'll "know peace" briefly just before my exit.
Like to get at it sooner but looking at my track record.......
I should think it would be easier if I was deep into the God thing but
I'm not. Always fascinated me how rare it is for "deeply religious"
people to just practice their faith. Step 1. Judge not less ye be
judged. Step 2. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Basics. Maybe loving thy
self (as opposed to worshipping) is the hang up.
Gramps
David M
> Got a hunch I'll "know peace" briefly just before my exit.
I'm not at all sure about before, but I'd bet on a long time
after.
F.H.
LOL, next stop John Edward.
Virtualoso
<garye...@nadaswbell.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:15:41 -0800, "Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Hell...they are AA PROMISES!
> >Gauran-fuckin-teed - AA PROMISES!
> >
> >Not from some fringe literature...from the first 164.
> By now....by now...more has been revealed.
Interesting how the "more revealed" thing comes from a passage saying
that God will reveal more to us, yet is so often altered by folks that
want to both seem to be referring to some AA/BB thing, while thereby
disclaiming it at the same time. Kinda' loopy, really.
Virtualoso
<disconne...@chimpthlinkxxx.net> wrote:
> Always fascinated me how rare it is for "deeply religious"
> people to just practice their faith.
That would be as compared to how common it is for the non-religious
people to just practice their faith?
Virtualoso
> A fit spiritual condition is not necessary for sobriety either. The
> biggest assholes in AA are still sober. The biggest know it all
> bastards. The condescending authorities. These are your 'Walking
> BB's" The same people who use the BB as sadists....who don't miss the
> slimmest of opportunities in trying to pick apart, denigrate, and
> demean other people, assuredly trying to elevate their own pathetic
> and pitiful selves. Look around you in this NG. Love, tolerance,
> humility, practicing the principles, when you were wrong, promptly
> admit it,and all the spiritual aspects are exceptions, not the rule.
Gosh, how many "in this NG" are AA members to be so exemplary of the
trashing you expound here? Are you saying that the folks "in this NG"
are all such examples of your feared sadists -- at least according to
your condescending authority about all this? Why would you be
denigrating and picking apart and demeaning everyone "in this NG" like
that?
David M
God is a tired old man
Who builds and builds a crumbling wall
Outside of which a faceless tiger prowls.
The tiger is God's enemy -- and His temptation.
God's failing fingers hold the earth
Above an endless pit of nothingness.
God juggles galaxies with aching arms.
Soon He will rest --
His fingers opening above the plunging earth.
The ordered universe will scatter through the skies. . .
The tiger prowl the streets. . .
And we'll know peace.
F.H.
Once again, you know something that I do not. Humbling, but good.
F.H.
Can always count on you for these little treasures. Thanks David.
Frank
David M
> Irony rules life. Unfortunately a lot of it shows up in
> marriages and then children. ):>
Very true. I always thought it ironic that someone of my worth
had the parents, wife, children I did.
Virtualoso
<disconne...@chimpthlinkxxx.net> wrote:
Hey, apparently you know what either of us does know or not. Good 'n
humble, indeed. Which is not to say that such remarks about Them above
is about Us, or devolves to only that.
If not Them, or Us, there's always We... that reportedly have faith
enough to hold certain germinal Truths to be self-evident. And so,
thereby practiced. Rarely or otherwise. If we credit any given
interpretation of just what those Truths might be, or just how
practiced.
F.H.
These kind of remarks used to give me headaches. Progress, not
perfection.
Tom G.
> For all I know there might be a God and he will strike me with his
> spiritual wand one of these days....if it happens I hope I chew the
> crow slowly so as not to choke to death.
If there is a Gawd he's damn sure goin' to get yer
heathen Kallifornia ass...
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Srgnt Bilkoo
"Kimba" <kimbagol...@whirlednet.att.net> wrote in message
news:pj3juvcgd3bm0p2jo...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:03:03 GMT, "Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> And do you know - sometimes, I DO regret the past.
>
> And sometimes, I'm not very happy, with either new or old happiness.
>
> Sometimes, I'm faced with something and I have no darned idea of what
> I'm supposed to do next. None. No intuitive answers. No direction.
> Nada.
>
> I have often been afraid, though fear seems to be in the backseat,
> rather than behind the wheel, these days.
>
> Kimba
>
"If we are **painstaking** about this phase of our development ..." It
probably won't happen for those that just hang out or pass through. It
helps if you have a sponsor who has been there, done that and can guide you
through. It worked for me.
Virtualoso
<iXoGb.526403$0v4.22...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Srgnt
Bilkoo <Sa...@yazoo.com> wrote:
> "If we are **painstaking** about this phase of our development ..." It
> probably won't happen for those that just hang out or pass through. It
> helps if you have a sponsor who has been there, done that and can guide you
> through. It worked for me.
Gosh, now just which particular phase of development is that good for?
Virtualoso
<disconne...@chimpthlinkxxx.net> wrote:
Take your excedrin and be well. Or your valium and be jolly, to boot.
Progress and Joyceuticals on earth to all (wo)men.
Tex
wrote:
Tom wrote:
>> I figure around here you find not so much exceptions,
>>rather more the rule you find people with an outlet not to be
>>doormats.
Gary wrote:
>
>That would be you, right? I figure. Just for the record Tom, I think
>you are a straight shooter, no ambiguity, no guile. No crusades. And
>best of all, not repetitiously boring. Merry Christmas. (:>
>>
Not me, at least I don't think so as I've really never suffered from
the doormat deal. What I meant is I've noticed some pretty meek and
even sensitive people (at least by what & how they've posted) stick
around and actually seem to grow an inch or two as they stand tall.
Kinda interesting deal, at to me.
You lay it on fairly thick with the straight shooter etc but I'd say
basically I don't really have any reason not to be. As for crusades
...I have a couple in the planning stages but don't think a Ng would
be my choice of engaging them...Hell, Hector, is a good example of why
I wouldn't use this place for my battle ground. Hah ha!
Now I won't wiggle and deny the part about boring though I will say I
would have to agree repetitiously would be a serious offense!
Merry Christmas to you too. X-mas doesn't mean too much to me as I've
not had any kids and pushing aside the religious part (what's left?)
it's the kids that make the whole thing a joy....those that still have
the belief Santa & the deer are actually real! I recall I lost it
early but when I had it Wow!
Tex
wrote:
>
> If there is a Gawd he's damn sure goin' to get yer
>heathen Kallifornia ass...
>
> \\\|///
> \\ - - //
> ( @ @ )
>---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
At this point he won't be getting much!
Srgnt Bilkoo
Ask your sponsor.
Robert McGregor
On June 15, 1999, Pedro H. spoke briefly at the Mt. Holyoke Beginner's
Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous in Jackson, Oregon.
His face was flushed as he reached the podium; he seemed awkward and nervous
as he introduced himself. After stammering for a while, he admitted that he
wasn't much of a speaker. "I'm not a man of many words," he said, then
glanced at his sponsor. "In fact, uh, can I just sit down?"
His sponsor shook his head vigorously and mouthed, No.
"Uh," Pedro continued. "Okay. Well..."
After reporting that he'd only been sober three weeks this time, Pedro
simulated a coughing fit. Trying to scramble together some thoughts, he
scanned
the decorative prints around the room: A few calligraphic slogan posters, a
serene seascape with the serenity prayer elegantly superimposed, an enormous
oil painting of Bill Wilson beaming before a stadium audience, his arms
spread, his skin faintly greenish, his eyes reflecting fireworks in the sky
above him.
Finally, his mind still paralyzed, Pedro's eyes fell back to the surface of
the podium. "This is a nice podium," he said. A few people in the room
laughed.
Supportively, of course; trying to warm him up. "It's oak, huh? Real
solid. Looks old, too. I can tell 'cause I sometimes do carpentry. I
mean, when I can hold down a job."
Then it flashed on Pedro: he could talk about how since he was sixteen years
old his drinking has interfered with his ability to hold down a steady
job. By recounting this, he could share his sense of hopeless futility at
ever amounting to anything, his bondage to relentless failure, his state of
constantly
being professionally belittled, humiliated by people half as old as him, and
less than half as skilled.
Instead, Pedro's face darkened momentarily; his eyebrows tightened and sank,
shadowing an expression which appeared suddenly angry and confused.
Inaudibly, Pedro muttered something in Spanish.
Then, in a rapid and unbroken series of motions, Pedro dropped his pants and
his boxer shorts, planted his foot onto a low shelf in the back of the
podium, and stepped up. Mounting the podium, he turned, sitting over the
face of the podium with his back toward the audience, his bare buttocks
"mooning" the now speechless assembly. After a booming grunt, Pedro
crapped, and his feces dove through the air -- a somber, chubby torpedo,
shaped rather like Pedro himself -- and smacked onto the floor in front of
the podium. After wiping himself on a page from the meeting format, Pedro
hopped down from the podium, refastened his pants, then ran from the meeting
hall.
As might be expected, those in attendance expressed shocked disbelief,
indignant fury, or grim perplexity. A few people -- mostly newcomers,
obviously -- burst into sadistic laughter. An dainty, eighty-four year old
virgin fainted. An out-of-town visitor from Iowa snapped a photograph of
the excrement. Reluctantly, the leader returned to the podium.
"So..." the leader made a gesture of bafflement. "Should I...? I mean,
what do I do now?" "Call the next five-minute speaker," someone suggested.
The leader nodded. "Okay, the next speaker is Janice B.--"
"Wait!" Cindy R., the secretary of the meeting, rose to her feet. "No.
We're not going to continue this meeting with that reeking crap log on the
floor. What if someone walks in late? They'll think, what, that A.A. is the
sort of group where people shit on the floor and don't even bother cleaning
up after themselves?"
The debate that followed lasted nearly thirty-five minutes. Initially, the
secretary ordered Bob D., who had the clean-up commitment at the meeting, to
make quick work of the unsightly, fetid mess. Bob refused, however,
although he was the person most logically dutibound to do so. "I flat-out
refuse," he said. "If I'd known that this commitment required cleaning up
more than coffee cups, ashtrays, occasional spilled tea, then I wouldn't've
taken it. I'm just not going to clean up another man's crap. Most of the
time I don't even clean up my own, for chrissake."
"Then who," Cindy demanded, "Should have the responsibility of cleaning up?"
"Well, you're the one who put Pedro the Pooper on the list of five-minute
speakers. And he was obviously not ready to be an A.A. speaker -- I mean,
look at how he reacted. You're really the one who's responsible, so you
should clean it up."
The secretary denied responsibility. "We can only be responsible for the
predictable results of our actions. No one could've predicted Pedro's
reaction to what I asked him to do, so it's ridiculous to say that I caused
it, or that I'm responsible. I won't clean it up. Sorry."
"If you hadn't asked Pedro to talk, he wouldn't've done it! Okay, okay,
then tell me, oh mighty secretary, should be responsible for cleaning up the
mess?" "It shouldn't be a woman," Peggy, the treasurer announced. "Women
have been cleaning up after men for more than a hundred thousand years.
Women even clean up after shitting babies. I don't think it's right that we
continue that bad tradition of exploitation and ruthless dehumanization."
"Hear, hear," many women squealed in excitement, some hugging each other
fervidly in a show of solidarity, some gently massaging each other in the
shared recognition of their own inherent worth as individuals regardless of
their sex. Linda F. suggested, "Why don't we just leave it here for the
church
janitor to take care of? I mean, isn't that what he's paid for?" While this
proposal drew a great deal of support, a few people objected.
"Look at it like this," an alcoholic rabbi who was a regular in the group
argued. "It would be thoughtless for us to leave it here for the church. I
mean, isn't it our mess? Shouldn't we clean it up?" "Well, no, it's
actually not our mess. It's Pedro's mess. Why should we be burdened with
his crap?" "Well," the rabbi answered, "Because it happened while we were in
charge of this room."
"He's right!" Someone else interjected. "And even though we shouldn't be
burdened with this mess, `should' isn't the same as `is.' It's not fair for
stupid
blind children to suffer, but they do. We just have to accept the
unfairness in life. And really, gang, we can cope. We're not going to let
this defeat us. I
mean, this manure is not as bad as, say, world hunger, or natural
disasters."
"I think it's much worse!" Jake F., an old-timer responded. "World hunger
isn't happening to us; natural disasters aren't happening to us. But this
caca is
right here, right now, causing very real suffering. I don't mean to sound
selfish, but if I could either end world hunger or cause this caca to cease
to exist, I'd
go for the clean floor.""So who should clean up the shit? We should decide
that and get on with the meeting. I mean, we've been babbling for, like
twenty minutes."
"The secretary should clean it up," the clean-up person re-asserted. "I
mean, it's like the captain of a vessel being the last one off."
"Oh, that's a bunch of old-fashioned chivalric bullshit. That's no longer
done. Now the captains get helicoptered off, while the underlings are left
to
suck krill."
A few more people voied agreement that the secretary should clean up the
shit, arguing that "if she hadn't asked him to speak, it wouldn't've
happened it.
She created the situation. She should own up to it."
"Bastards!" The secretary hissed. "Okay, fine: I quit. I'm no longer
secretary."
"Let's take a group conscience!" Someone cried. "Bullshit!" The
increasingly furious secretary objected. "Even if it's unanimous, I'm still
not cleaning it up. The group conscience is a way of legitimizing a
decision; it's not a way of making a goddam law. If you all took a group
conscience and agreed to execute me, would that give you the right to do so?
Of course not! If you all took a group conscience and decided that I should
move to Mozambique, would I be obliged to obey? Of course not! And I'd
sooner move to Mozambique than shovel this goddam crap!"
Norma G. called out, "Is there anyone here with a shit-eating fetish? I've
heard about people like that; they actually like being pooped on, and eating
poop. It turns them on somehow. If anyone has that unusual talent, hey:
now's your chance to shine. Have at it! We'll thank you for your
freakishness!"
Finally, a group conscience was taken. Unanimously, the sixty-four people
at the meeting voted that Cindy, the secretary, should clean up Pedro's
droppings. And despite her earlier contentions about the non-binding nature
of group consciences, Cindy complied. Bitterly, of course; all the while
cursing her "daft decision" to get sober in A.A. But nevertheless, she
complied.
* * *
At coffee after the meeting, five alcoholics conspired to exact revenge upon
Pedro. Their ring leader was Cindy, who laid out the scheme: "We'll go to
his house some time before dawn, and take turns crapping on his front
steps."
Four people from the meeting agreed to go along with her, and for the rest
of the evening they hung out at twenty-four hour diners eating meal after
meal,
hoping to increase the quantity of their caca. At around three o'clock in
the morning, sitting at a fifties style diner, they decided they could not
physically
tolerate any further delay. They drove to a spot two blocks from Pedro's
house, then walked the rest of the way in the darkness.
"Guys," Ted said, eating the last bites of a banana split he'd taken to go.
"I have an idea. Instead of crapping on his porch, why don't we break in,
sneak into his bedroom, hold him down, and take turns crapping on his face?"
Cindy laughed delightedly, then high-fived Ted.
"No," Peggy insisted. "That would be criminal assault, and we do not want
to go to jail for this. Come on, let's do what we planned. And stop
talking,
or we'll wake him up!"
After a moment of awkward indecision, collectively wondering who should "go"
first, Cindy squatted and partially unzipped her skirt. Her companions
followed loyally, defecating in the darkness. "Shit!" Whispered Ted. "Did
anyone remember to bring toilet paper?" To his vast relief, Cindy tossed
him a roll.
While the five stood surveying their work in the dim blend of moonlight and
illumination from the street lamps, Ted plucked a maraschino cherry from his
sundae and put it at the tip of his crap.
"It looks like a red eye," he said. "Kinda spooky." "Don't try to out-do us
artistically," snapped Peggy. "I'm not," Ted defended himself, "I don't know
why I did that. I guess it was an after-thought."
But Peggy was not mollified. Determined to prove herself the more artistic
of the two, Peggy picked up a stick from the ground and made etchings in
her crap: swirls, wavy lines, elaborate curls all across its outer surface.
Bobby N. smeared his feces across the cement porch until it formed A.A.'s
encircled triangle symbol.
Cindy kneeled down and, utterly soiling her perfect suede gloves, sculpted
her enormous fecal deposit into a bust. "It's Bill Wilson," she announced
proudly. "A stunningly accurate rendering, isn't it?"
Norma G. stared glumly at her excrement. "Mine's so plain," she confessed.
"I feel like a real loser. I'm going to hide it." Norma walked over to her
doodoo. As she raised her foot to kick it off the porch, Ted stopped her.
"Wait! Norma, if you kick it off, it won't do us any good. I mean, our
purpose is getting Pedro back, remember? Don't clean up your own crap for
him."
"But it's lousy! I don't want anyone to know I can't even have a
competitive bowel movement. I don't even want Pedro the loser to know
that."
Their debate was cut short when a light turned on inside Pedro's home, and
the five alcoholics dashed back to their car.
* * *
Moments later, while the five sober members of A.A. drove from Pedro's
house, Norma continued her self-laceration in a different vein. "I'm not
sure we should've done that," she admitted. "Bullshit," Ted retorted,
"You're just sore because your crap was such shit. You're envious." "No,
I'm just thinking we acted out of resentment. We acted intemperately. We
didn't look at our part..."
"I think what we did was great," Ted disagreed. "I think we should do this
anytime someone shares stupid crap at the podium. It would certainly
persuade people to think a little more carefully about what they share."
"I don't know about that," Cindy reflected. "But what we did certainly
sends a message. No one can get away with mocking A.A.; not as long as I'm
sober.
A.A. has saved my life, and I take it very seriously. I'm not going to
tolerate people making it look bad."
"I agree," Bobby N. contributed. "This was fully justified. I had some
doubts about it that time that I beat Billy Jones with a pipe after he
coughed during
a meeting, even though now I deem that the correct course of action. But I
have absolutely no doubts or remorse about this. If Pedro had woken up, I
would've smeared my shit all over his face. If his wife and children had
woken up, I would've smeared it on them. A.A. is not going to be messed
with. Sobriety is fucking sacred."
* * *
Meanwhile, however, the other members of the Mt. Holyoke group were having a
strikingly different discussion.
"Do you realize what Pedro did?" The rabbi asked the clean-up person.
"Uh..."
"I'll tell you. He exposed himself more fearlessly than I've ever seen any
other person expose himself at an A.A. meeting. He showed himself at his
very worst, too; his revealed his most foul, most animalistic, and most
human aspect. That took incredible courage and candor."
"That's right," one of the other witnesses opined. "I thought to myself
while Pedro was up there shitting, Wow, this meeting has never gotten so
honest before. We're really lucky that this is happening."
"He was also spontaneous," a third witness added. "There was no rehearsal
there; nothing scripted. You could tell he was acting on a direct visceral
impulse; his head wasn't interfering with his biology at all during that
moment. Man, when people share from the podium without words, we gotta give
them credit; they're saying more than volumes of words could say."
"Why, that's right," the rabbi said. "I was a little offended at first, but
now I realize that Pedro has given us so much. He has given us a
physiological fifth
step, and in so doing he has given our group a perspective from which we, as
a group, can do a collective sixth step. By shitting in our midst -- so
tenderly, so lovingly -- Pedro has shown us our main defects of character:
our excessive, stifling propriety; our lack of spontaneity; our lack of
candor."
"Pedro hasn't given us shit; he's given us gold."
"That's absolutely right."
* * *
My friends, after moving my bowels at my homegroup, the Mt. Holyoke meeting,
I became a hero in local A.A. I was embraced by all, and given the mantle
of spiritual leadership. I was invited to use the podium as my convertible
outhouse many more times, and eventually it was written into the format of
the
meeting that after the secretary's report, right before the coffee break, I
should mount the podium and defecate in front of the group to remind them of
A.A.'s deepest, most heart-felt principles. It's a sad evening indeed when
I just can't perform. My act of honesty keeps the Mt. Holyoke group
together, their hearts and minds open to the collective Higher Power.
I've realized that I'm an oracle for the higher power, and that my excrement
is His sacred omen, his telegram, his weather report. A few members of the
group have been trained to divine the future from the shape, texture and
coloration of my bowel movements.
It recently occurred to me that I should not be greedy with my talents; I
should share with all of my brothers and sisters in A.A. I have decided to
make
myself available to other groups. Provided your group is willing to furnish
me with transporation and the expenses of room and board, I will come to
your
meeting, wherever it may be, and share my godly sensation with you. Contact
me via email to discuss terms and conditions. I look forward to meeting
you; to dropping my pants in front of your group and sharing my experience,
strength and hope.
PEDRO "THE MAN" G.
rosie
your welcome back into AA, no matter WHAT name you call yourself!
"Robert McGregor" <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bselnr$ca6u4$1...@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
Robert McGregor
"rosie" <nos...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:tdCGb.2035$fq1....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> bob,
> your welcome back into AA, no matter WHAT name you call yourself!
>
Ms Barrett, even though it's a game to you, I would never even try to
compete with your dishonesty and malicious intent.
Bob
George &The Dragon
dilemma of who cleans up the mess reminds me of a scenario presented to an
ethics seminar I attended some time ago. The ethics class was divided into
groups of six, and each person in the group was given a "character" to play.
The characters were:
- a famous musician
- a top politician
- a welfare mom
- a rich businesswoman
- a hopeless drug addict
- a helpless old man of 90
A chalk mark is drawn on the floor around each group. The scenario is this:
Each group is in a lifeboat, built to hold five only. The lifeboat is slowly
being swamped with water. The group has fifteen minutes to decide who leaves
the lifeboat - no "tricks" allowed. At the end of fifteen minutes any
lifeboats that still have six people aboard are deemed to have sunk,
drowning everyone aboard. The only way to save five lives is to sacrifice
one. How is this done? Time starts now.
Bob, it was in hindsight from the above scenario that I read your post on
who would clean up the mess.
Regards,
George
&
the Dragon
Bobby L.
Hell, It kinda reminded me of Harry's Med-Log.
Bobby L
Jonathan Bratt
Dragon <geo...@dragon.ca> writes
>At the risk of being flamed, I'm going to take your post seriously. The
>dilemma of who cleans up the mess reminds me of a scenario presented to an
>ethics seminar I attended some time ago. The ethics class was divided into
>groups of six, and each person in the group was given a "character" to play.
>The characters were:
>
>- a famous musician
>- a top politician
>- a welfare mom
>- a rich businesswoman
>- a hopeless drug addict
>- a helpless old man of 90
>
>A chalk mark is drawn on the floor around each group. The scenario is this:
>
>Each group is in a lifeboat, built to hold five only. The lifeboat is slowly
>being swamped with water. The group has fifteen minutes to decide who leaves
>the lifeboat - no "tricks" allowed. At the end of fifteen minutes any
>lifeboats that still have six people aboard are deemed to have sunk,
>drowning everyone aboard. The only way to save five lives is to sacrifice
>one. How is this done? Time starts now.
>
factor is usually the impact that the death of any will have on others -
number of dependants is one example. Age was often another and life
expectancy - so looks like it would be the old man or drug addict that
does for a swim.
--
Jonathan Bratt
Michael H.
Thank you Nestique.
Thank you Pedro.
This was nice.
Very nice.
Peace
Michael H.
"Robert McGregor" <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bselnr$ca6u4$1...@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
Michael H.
"Kimba" <kimbagol...@whirlednet.att.net> wrote in message
news:pj3juvcgd3bm0p2jo...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:03:03 GMT, "Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I walked past him after the meeting and quickly said, "Thanks for
sharing",
> >He stopped and got this big smile and said "You're welcome!" So pleased
was
> >he with his contribution.
>
> So long as one goes to a meeting, expecting to "get" something, rather
> than expecting to "give" something, one is likely to be disappointed.
>
> Progress is measured with an individual yardstick.
>
> And do you know - sometimes, I DO regret the past.
>
> And sometimes, I'm not very happy, with either new or old happiness.
>
> Sometimes, I'm faced with something and I have no darned idea of what
> I'm supposed to do next. None. No intuitive answers. No direction.
> Nada.
>
> I have often been afraid, though fear seems to be in the backseat,
> rather than behind the wheel, these days.
>
> contribution at a meeting was to raise someone else's gratitude level.
>
> It's life, in all its fullness.
Kim...
I saw the guy again tonight.
A friend of mine, a newcomer I brought with me, went to sit on a bench next
to the dude. He very harshly said, " Hey man somebody's sitting here, cant
you see this paper here, don't you know what that means!." and then he
looked away and said hi to someone walking by just totally ignoring the new
guy. The guy sitting next to me said, "That guy needs a drink!" Then our
buddy got up and left before the meeting started and the seat was never even
filled.
I really liked Nestique's take on it. Pedro...:) So anyway....I know it's up
to me to work this thing regardless of how others do it. And I do. Your
comments seem to come from someone who is actively engaged in seeking a way
out of past patterns and who as a result has made progress. As you said fear
these days seems to be in the back seat. One of the promises....coming true.
Unlike our buddy...Mr. angry boy.
>
> Now get your Christmas thong and lil green tights on - it's time for a
> pahty!!!
I had the TV on Fox news and that guy Oreiley was on. At the end of his show
there was some comment about him wearing a thong. His quote went something
like this:
No, I have never worn a thong. No one has ever seen me in a thong and I'm
sure America is a better place because of it.
I miss Homerr... I feel ...well...naked... without my co tea boy.
Happy Holidays!
Peace
Michael H.
>
> Hugs,
> Kimba
>
> --You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better. Maya Angelou
JB
"Jonathan Bratt" <jonny...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aE11gMxGOV7$Ew...@aol.com...
> In message <lX5Hb.16014$d%1.34...@news20.bellglobal.com>, George
&The
> Dragon <geo...@dragon.ca> writes
>> The ethics class was divided into
> >groups of six, and each person in the group was given a "character"
to play.
> >The characters were:
> >
> >- a famous musician
> >- a top politician
> >- a welfare mom
> >- a rich businesswoman
> >- a hopeless drug addict
> >- a helpless old man of 90
> >
> >A chalk mark is drawn on the floor around each group. The scenario
is this:
> >
> >Each group is in a lifeboat, built to hold five only. The lifeboat
is slowly
> >being swamped with water. The group has fifteen minutes to decide
who leaves
> >the lifeboat - no "tricks" allowed.
> When I've done similar exercises in management training groups the
key
> factor is usually the impact that the death of any will have on
others -
> number of dependants is one example. Age was often another and life
> expectancy - so looks like it would be the old man or drug addict
that
> does for a swim.
>
> --
> Jonathan Bratt.
(<g>) Did no-one suggest getting rid of the person who either weighed
the most or whom was least liked ?
Hope you had an enjoyable Christmas. Wishing you much joy and good
health.
JB
George &The Dragon
>so looks like it would be the old man or drug addict that > does for a
swim.
>
> --
> Jonathan Bratt
Is it fair to say, then, that this solution assumes that some people's lives
are "worth" more than others? The next question would be "who would make the
decision?"
Who said that life was easy?
Compliments of the season, Jonathan.
George
&
the
Dragon
Jonathan Bratt
Dragon <geo...@dragon.ca> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonny...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:aE11gMxGOV7$Ew...@aol.com...
>
>>so looks like it would be the old man or drug addict that > does for a
>swim.
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>Is it fair to say, then, that this solution assumes that some people's lives
>are "worth" more than others?
I have always thought that the death of a child for example is less
tragic than the death of a mother of 5 young children. If one has to
make this kind of decision then one has to have some method of
establishing relative worth. I guess it would be a question of asking
for volunteers first - one may after all have a suicidal tendency -
otherwise by vote.
> The next question would be "who would make the
>decision?"
During the exercise it was me - or me and a group - who made the
decision.
>
>Who said that life was easy?
Most certainly not me!
>
>Compliments of the season, Jonathan.
>George
And to you too George.
--
Jonathan Bratt
Jonathan Bratt
writes
>
>
>(<g>) Did no-one suggest getting rid of the person who either weighed
>the most or whom was least liked ?
Weight was not a factor and one has no info on likeability!
>
>Hope you had an enjoyable Christmas. Wishing you much joy and good
>health.
Ditto.
--
Jonathan Bratt
Robert McGregor
>
> >> I would never even try to
> > > compete with your dishonesty and malicious intent.
> > >
> > > Bob
>
>
>
> (you appartently are in so deep, you no longer know sincerity when
> you read it)........................i meant it..................the
> door is always open!
>
>
I have never written a book, but I have seen enough of your bullshit to
accept you are an incorrigible liar, and sincerely malicious. As you well
know, I have neither desire, nor need to stop drinking, thus do not qualify
for AA membership.
Bob
Artfulcodger
Can you tell me why a person who has no desire or need to stop drinking
spends his time in recovery newsgroups. Maybe it's me, but it just doens't
make sense to me.
The Artful Codger
Ted F.
wrote:
He seems to have made it his lifes work to stalk Rosie.
He might not need or want AA, but IMO he needs a good psychiatrist.
Ted F.
>
>The Artful Codger
>
George &The Dragon
> I guess it would be a question of asking
> for volunteers first - one may after all have a suicidal tendency -
In some groups a member will sacrifice himself or herself. This is a big
relief for the rest of the group, since they do not have to make the big
decision.
> otherwise by vote.
This sounds good. We are a democracy after all. But doesn't the weakest end
up going overboard? Or the one that is "different"? Suppose there are five
Caucasians and one Hispanic? Goodbye Hose? Under this solution hasn't the
majority decided that a Hispanic life is worth less than a Caucasian?
Some might argue that this is democracy. Couldn't it also be seen as "mob
rule"?
George
&
the
Dragon
Robert McGregor
"Artfulcodger" <mc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:B4rHb.134797$2We1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Some here may want and need to stop drinking, but their using Usenet as an
optimal recovery resource doesn't make much sense to me, I used the Big
Book. However I know at least three folk in these groups who apparantly did
spend time drinking and posting, stopped drinking, stayed stopped, and
continued to post. Seems Usenet "worked" fine, for them.
Takes all kinds.
Bob
Robert McGregor
"Ted F." <ted.fl...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:f5hsuvs47hme6n1ut...@4ax.com...
Don't spose I should be surprised you're dumb as well as deaf
Bob
Robert McGregor
> > know, I have neither desire, nor need to stop drinking, thus do
> not qualify
> > for AA membership.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
> you................................
>
>
I've no intention of drinking at all, let alone just to meet your criteria.
Bob
Michael H.
"George &The Dragon" <geo...@dragon.ca> wrote in message
news:lX5Hb.16014$d%1.34...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> At the risk of being flamed, I'm going to take your post seriously. The
> dilemma of who cleans up the mess reminds me of a scenario presented to an
> ethics seminar I attended some time ago. The ethics class was divided into
> groups of six, and each person in the group was given a "character" to
play.
> The characters were:
>
> - a famous musician
> - a top politician
> - a welfare mom
> - a rich businesswoman
> - a hopeless drug addict
> - a helpless old man of 90
Look this is a program of rigorous honesty.
We can save a space by admitting that the famous musician and the hopeless
drug addict are actually a single person!.
See now there's room for everyone!
Peace
Michael H.
Jonathan Bratt
Dragon <geo...@dragon.ca> writes
>Some might argue that this is democracy. Couldn't it also be seen as
>"mob rule"?
It could - but in the circumstances you describe that is what people
would be reduced to. I doubt they would elect a chair and agree a voting
procedure!
--
Jonathan Bratt
Artfulcodger
Bob -- In one post you state to have no desire or need to stop drinking and
in another post you imply you used the Big Book as an optimal recovery
resource. That certainly sounds contradictory to me. But like you say it
takes all kinds.
Codge
Kai
>
> Bob -- In one post you state to have no desire or need to stop drinking and
> in another post you imply you used the Big Book as an optimal recovery
> resource. That certainly sounds contradictory to me. But like you say it
> takes all kinds.
I've stopped drinking. I have no urge to stop doing something I'm not
doing.
--
Kai
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."
- President Merkin Muffley -
JB
> Robert McGregor wrote:
<snip> > "Artfulcodger" <mc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> >
news:B4rHb.134797$2We1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> >> Can you tell me why a person who has no desire or need to stop
> >> drinking spends his time in recovery newsgroups. Maybe it's me,
but
> >> it just doens't make sense to me.
> >>
> >> The Artful Codger
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Some here may want and need to stop drinking, but their using
Usenet
> > as an optimal recovery resource doesn't make much sense to me, I
used
> > the Big Book. However I know at least three folk in these groups
who
> > apparantly did spend time drinking and posting, stopped drinking,
> > stayed stopped, and continued to post. Seems Usenet "worked" fine,
> > for them.
> >
> > Takes all kinds.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Bob -- In one post you state to have no desire or need to stop
drinking and
> in another post you imply you used the Big Book as an optimal
recovery
> resource. That certainly sounds contradictory to me. But like you
say it
> takes all kinds.
>
> Codge
I don't know how anyone who has not been drinking for several years
can, today, have either the desire or need to do what they've already
done.
In answer to your question about why people who have no desire or need
to stop drinking spend time in recovery newsgroups, I think it
depends on their motives. Trolls and Spammers, for example, post for
different reasons to those who have a genuine desire to help those who
seek recovery.
Yours
JB
rosie
> >> I have neither desire, nor need to stop drinking, thus
> >> do not qualify for AA membership.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >
> >Can you tell me why a person who has no desire or need to stop
drinking
> >spends his time in recovery newsgroups. Maybe it's me, but it
just doens't
> >make sense to me.
>
> He seems to have made it his lifes work to stalk Rosie.
> He might not need or want AA, but IMO he needs a good
psychiatrist.
>
> Ted F.
>
stalking is what you get, when you refuse to argue with
bob....................his actions are both pathetic AND boring!
rosie
> > He seems to have made it his lifes work to stalk Rosie.
> > He might not need or want AA, but IMO he needs a good
psychiatrist.
> >
> > Ted F.
>
> Don't spose I should be surprised you're dumb as well as deaf
>
> Bob
>
>
oh yeah, and lots of name calling.............................it
hurts sooooooooooooo much!
;)
Kimba
wrote:
>Your
>comments seem to come from someone who is actively engaged in seeking a way
>out of past patterns and who as a result has made progress. As you said fear
>these days seems to be in the back seat. One of the promises....coming true.
>Unlike our buddy...Mr. angry boy.
Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly... :)
KImba
Bubba
news:vusnq1...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "George &The Dragon" <geo...@dragon.ca> wrote in message
> news:lX5Hb.16014$d%1.34...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > At the risk of being flamed, I'm going to take your post seriously. The
> > dilemma of who cleans up the mess reminds me of a scenario presented to
an
> > ethics seminar I attended some time ago. The ethics class was divided
into
> > groups of six, and each person in the group was given a "character" to
> play.
> > The characters were:
> >
> > - a famous musician
> > - a top politician
> > - a welfare mom
> > - a rich businesswoman
> > - a hopeless drug addict
> > - a helpless old man of 90
>
>
> Look this is a program of rigorous honesty.
> We can save a space by admitting that the famous musician and the hopeless
> drug addict are actually a single person!.
> See now there's room for everyone!
Actually the hopeless drug addict could be any of the above.
Michael H.
> On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:33:54 -0800, "Michael H." <mgh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Your
> >comments seem to come from someone who is actively engaged in seeking a
way
> >out of past patterns and who as a result has made progress. As you said
fear
> >these days seems to be in the back seat. One of the promises....coming
true.
> >Unlike our buddy...Mr. angry boy.
>
> Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly... :)
18 years! That's slowly all right! :)
Peace
Michael H.
Michael H.
"Bubba" <bubba@bubba> wrote in message
news:vutopda...@corp.supernews.com...
Yea but...
Lets think about this.
I'm trying to save space here.
so....
Rich Business woman and top politician and drug addict...OK 3 in 1
Welfare mom and drug addict OK 2 in 1
Famous musician and drug addict OK 2 in 1
Helpless old man and drug addict...90?...he must have just started...but OK
2 in 1
So we have reduced the group buy 5 ...
No one left!
Open boat...now available to save others.
All thanks to the hopeless drug addicts!
Is that algebra or geometry...more like quantum! :)
Bubba...that's my friends iguanas name.
He's a big guy. :)
We had to inject him in the face with some antibiotics!
It was hilarious...
Two newly clean dope fiends holding down a huge iguana trying to stick a
needle in his face!
Damn that was fun.
Peace
Michael H.
George &The Dragon
I agree, Jonathan.
The lifeboat scenario is just a vehicle to get us to think about our own
values.
If the "lifeboat" represents your country (or mine), surrounded by a border
instead of a chalk line, and there are millions of people instead of six,
and limited resources, there are some problems associated with assigning a
relative value to each person's life. The poor, the disadvantaged, and the
"different" will always be tossed overboard when the going gets tough.
All of this has relevance to our situation as alcoholics. We're all
conditioned to believe that alcoholics and drug addicts are the "dregs" of
society. What does this do to our self-image when we suddenly find ourselves
part of that group? I, for one, thought I was a complete and utter failure.
Things only make sense to me if we start from the assumption that all life
is of equal value, and that every life is important. Far-sighted people in
your country (the USA I think?) and mine (Canada) have recognised this in
the constitution. (But neither country has really put it into practice).
But you're right. In the circumstances I describe the veneer between
civilisation and barbarity is very thin. If I was ****actually*** in the
lifeboat I might go for the Saddam Hussein solution - Throw out the person
who was the next strongest and beat the rest into rowing me back to shore!
:-)
George &The Dragon
> Look this is a program of rigorous honesty.
> We can save a space by admitting that the famous musician and the hopeless
> drug addict are actually a single person!.
> See now there's room for everyone!
>
> Peace
> Michael H.
Every time I think I've heard all the solutions, someone comes up with a new
one!
Freedom!
George
&
the
Dragon
Tex
wrote:
>Bob -- In one post you state to have no desire or need to stop drinking and
>in another post you imply you used the Big Book as an optimal recovery
>resource. That certainly sounds contradictory to me. But like you say it
>takes all kinds.
>
>Codge
Codge, he's got ya by the balls and is shifting into fourwheel drive
and before ya know it you'll be behind the sunshine truck heading to
Goz' s where he will drop you off for the course in ketchup or is that
catch up?
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Tex
>I don't know how anyone who has not been drinking for several years
>can, today, have either the desire or need to do what they've already
>done.
Catch the early morning sunshine truck and attend a re-education class
at Camp Goz. Then what is known you will know.
Tex
wrote:
>I've stopped drinking. I have no urge to stop doing something I'm not
>doing.
Then too, it's really not about stopping drinking is it?
Jonathan Bratt
Dragon <geo...@dragon.ca> writes
>
>Things only make sense to me if we start from the assumption that all life
>is of equal value, and that every life is important. Far-sighted people in
>your country (the USA I think?)
Just for the record, the UK.
--
Jonathan Bratt
Tex
wrote:
>stalking is what you get, when you refuse to argue with
>bob....................his actions are both pathetic AND boring!
Don't know about you. I do know one of my shortcomings was the need
for attention and it didn't matter if it was positive or negative. I
never quite understood why people would take that stick and keep
poking the rattlesnake when it meant getting bit each time.
Then I hit aa and took a 4th Step. What once baffled me became clear.
Tex
wrote:
>oh yeah, and lots of name calling.............................it
>hurts sooooooooooooo much!
>;)
Attention, give me the attention. As I wait for the sunshine truck to
come rumbling up the mountain.
Tex
<kimbagol...@whirlednet.att.net> wrote:
>Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly... :)
Yes! Or. yes yes yes.....thank-you jesus!
Tex
wrote:
>18 years! That's slowly all right! :)
Not when ya is a moms and the baby is drafted and going off to war.
rosie
"Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> Then too, it's really not about stopping drinking is it?
>
>
AMEN!
Tom G.
> > Bob
>
> Bob -- In one post you state to have no desire or need to stop drinking
and
> in another post you imply you used the Big Book as an optimal recovery
> resource. That certainly sounds contradictory to me. But like you say it
> takes all kinds.
>
> Codge
It's pretty simple, you slow of wit old fart, if he
hasn't drank in probably close to twenty years now,
he no longer needs to stop drinkin'... He did that long
ago... Jeez, so much time; so little smart...
Tom
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Tom G.
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:51:40 -0000, "JB" <JBC...@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't know how anyone who has not been drinking for several years
> >can, today, have either the desire or need to do what they've already
> >done.
>
> Catch the early morning sunshine truck and attend a re-education class
> at Camp Goz. Then what is known you will know.
Well, it ain't my fault it didn't work on you, Tex...
By the way, are you ever goin' to pay the tuition bill
and reimburse me for those sheets you messed up with
that "accident"...
Tom - Teacher to the terminally bewildered
rosie
>
> Not when ya is a moms and the baby is drafted and going off to
war.
>
>
((((((((((((((tex))))))))))))
Kai
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:57:26 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I've stopped drinking. I have no urge to stop doing something I'm not
>>doing.
>
>
> Then too, it's really not about stopping drinking is it?
I rather think of myself as a non-drinker. I like to concentrate on
keeping my mental state in such a condition that I do not feel the
need to escape or alter reality, or actually just my perception of it.
I have noticed that things that make me feel shame, guilt and fear
appear to be the major contributors to this need and I try to live in
a way that makes me feel as little as possible of the aforementioned
feelings. Mostly I seem to succeed in this by 'doing the right thing'
most of the time.
Tex
wrote:
> Well, it ain't my fault it didn't work on you, Tex...
>By the way, are you ever goin' to pay the tuition bill
>and reimburse me for those sheets you messed up with
>that "accident"...
>
>Tom - Teacher to the terminally bewildered
>
> \\\|///
> \\ - - //
> ( @ @ )
>---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Hey...as you can see I have been pushing tickets for the ride on the
sunshine truck and also pushing attendance at the re-education camp.
Have you become befuddled once again? It was you dat suggested the
"accident" was no big thing. In fact you said next rain you would
merely put "her" on a mudslide back across the hollar to her brother
Craig's place and also you said the sheets hadn't been changed in
three generations, thus not to worry about it!
When I said I couldn't live with the guilt nor the shame it was you
that explained neither was important or necessary. That, it wasn't
about doing the right thing, rather it was doing what came natural
that counted. Also you said to keep your non-profit status you
wouldn't bill me, instead I could make a mere donation.
When I asked about the size an nature of the donation you assured me
all that was required was I make the attempt to give away what was so
freely given to me. Then when I insisted on making a donation of $ you
jumped and danced a jig with dat rattlesnake dangling from around your
neck as the banjo music played in the background...talk about a moment
of clarity....shouting louder than a stuck pig, echoing thru the
hollow you informed me rednecks just damn couldn't accept outside
contributions.
Not to worry it finally did work for me as I ran into this fine
youngster named Hector one day and he gave me the key to the code.
Tex
wrote:
> Mostly I seem to succeed in this by 'doing the right thing'
>most of the time.
God Damn the rain God Damn the rain!
Virtualoso
<sob...@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote:
> Tex wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:57:26 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I've stopped drinking. I have no urge to stop doing something I'm not
> >>doing.
> >
> >
> > Then too, it's really not about stopping drinking is it?
>
> I rather think of myself as a non-drinker. I like to concentrate on
> keeping my mental state in such a condition that I do not feel the
> need to escape or alter reality, or actually just my perception of it.
> I have noticed that things that make me feel shame, guilt and fear
> appear to be the major contributors to this need and I try to live in
> a way that makes me feel as little as possible of the aforementioned
> feelings. Mostly I seem to succeed in this by 'doing the right thing'
> most of the time.
It's very popular for folks to be mainly living according to what/how
they want to feel, even defining and pursuing mental states conceiving
of "right things" expressly for that purpose and to that end. The two
versions are concentrating on gaining maximum favorite feelings and/or
avoiding disliked ones as much as possible. But that can also be one of
the slipperiest of slopes, inclined toward rationalizations, if the
very definition of "right" is based on concern about one's own
feelings.
Kai
So basically you're saying I should just go on and do the things I
think are wrong? That would then somehow be a slope less slippery, as
if life could ever be anything but a slippery slope? Or maybe you mean
as opposed to basing one's definition of 'right' in an old book? Now
that's steady and level.
I'm sure it would be different, though, as I happen to have first hand
experience of it, and I can tell you it's not so much of a slippery
slope as a freefall. Couldn't really stomach it anymore, doing the
right thing seems to suit me better.
Kai
> and also you said the sheets hadn't been changed in
> three generations, thus not to worry about it!
Wow! That would be, what, possibly even over thirty years!
Artfulcodger
> "Artfulcodger" <mc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:5PzHb.144213$2We1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>> Robert McGregor wrote:
> <snip> > "Artfulcodger" <mc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
>>>
> news:B4rHb.134797$2We1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
>>>> Can you tell me why a person who has no desire or need to stop
>>>> drinking spends his time in recovery newsgroups. Maybe it's me, but
>>>> it just doens't make sense to me.
>>>>
>>>> The Artful Codger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Some here may want and need to stop drinking, but their using Usenet
>>> as an optimal recovery resource doesn't make much sense to me, I
>>> used the Big Book. However I know at least three folk in these
>>> groups who apparantly did spend time drinking and posting, stopped
>>> drinking, stayed stopped, and continued to post. Seems Usenet
>>> "worked" fine, for them.
>>>
>>> Takes all kinds.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> Bob -- In one post you state to have no desire or need to stop
>> drinking and in another post you imply you used the Big Book as an
>> optimal recovery resource. That certainly sounds contradictory to
>> me. But like you say it takes all kinds.
>>
>> Codge
>
> can, today, have either the desire or need to do what they've already
> done.
>
> to stop drinking spend time in recovery newsgroups, I think it
> depends on their motives. Trolls and Spammers, for example, post for
> different reasons to those who have a genuine desire to help those who
> seek recovery.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
Call it then the desire to stay stopped I suppose
JB
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@dot.com> wrote in message
news:281220030944324827%virtu...@dot.com...
<snip>
> It's very popular for folks to be mainly living according to
what/how
> they want to feel, even defining and pursuing mental states
conceiving
> of "right things" expressly for that purpose and to that end. The
two
> versions are concentrating on gaining maximum favorite feelings
and/or
> avoiding disliked ones as much as possible. But that can also be one
of
> the slipperiest of slopes, inclined toward rationalizations, if the
> very definition of "right" is based on concern about one's own
> feelings.
I think this explains why one person can consider their
attitudes/behaviour to be indicative of "good recovery" while those
who observe it can consider it not to be. I am not speaking with
confidence. .
Yours
JB
Artfulcodger
The man was good enough to answer my question which in my books is good
enough. Some here would sooner babble on about nothing. While I may not
fully understand his stance it is one that is his and I respect that.
Codge
JB
> JB wrote:
<snip>
> > In answer to your question about why people who have no desire or
need
> > to stop drinking spend time in recovery newsgroups, I think it
> > depends on their motives. Trolls and Spammers, for example, post
for
> > different reasons to those who have a genuine desire to help those
who
> > seek recovery.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
>
> Call it then the desire to stay stopped I suppose
>
It may not even be for that reason. I think it's possible for some
people to lose eventually the desire to drink.
Yours
JB.
Artfulcodger
Most definitely, but subscribe to " The Doctor's Opinion" as do I and you
will soon learn the deisre can return. So all in all, for this alkie or
once-alkie, whichever you like, it is best to stay stopped.
The Codge
Kai
>
> I think this explains why one person can consider their
> attitudes/behaviour to be indicative of "good recovery" while those
> who observe it can consider it not to be. I am not speaking with
> confidence. .
Now all that remains to be solved, is what in the hell gives some
people the nerve to start assessing others' 'goodness of recovery' in
the first place. That, and how do we get rid of the smug assholes they
invaritably are.
Artfulcodger
> JB wrote:
>
>>
>> I think this explains why one person can consider their
>> attitudes/behaviour to be indicative of "good recovery" while those
>> who observe it can consider it not to be. I am not speaking with
>> confidence. .
>
> Now all that remains to be solved, is what in the hell gives some
> people the nerve to start assessing others' 'goodness of recovery' in
> the first place. That, and how do we get rid of the smug assholes they
> invaritably are.
Give em time--implosion will occur, he smugly replied
The codger
rosie
>................ That, and how do we get rid of the smug assholes
they
> invaritably are.
>
> --
> Kai
patience, tolerance and prayer.....................
;)
JB
> JB wrote:
> > "Artfulcodger" <mc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> >
news:WcFHb.188538$ea%.85669@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> >>
> > It may not even be for that reason. I think it's possible for
some
> > people to lose eventually the desire to drink.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB.
>
> Most definitely, but subscribe to " The Doctor's Opinion" as do I
and you
> will soon learn the deisre can return. So all in all, for this
alkie or
> once-alkie, whichever you like, it is best to stay stopped.
>
> The Codge
>
JB
JB
"Kai" <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote in message
news:bsn8ei$ckg$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> JB wrote:
>
> >
> > I think this explains why one person can consider their
> > attitudes/behaviour to be indicative of "good recovery" while
those
> > who observe it can consider it not to be. I am not speaking with
> > confidence. .
>
> Now all that remains to be solved, is what in the hell gives some
> people the nerve to start assessing others' 'goodness of recovery'
in
> the first place.
I wonder if it is only done by people with large egos and inferiority
complexes. I think that such people might have a need to imagine they
are "superior beings", in order to be able to feel good about
themselves.
>That, and how do we get rid of the smug assholes they invaritably
are.
Kai
On NG's use your killfile. If you don't want to do this, you could
teach yourself to accept them for who they are and also teach yourself
not to let them bother you :^).
Best regards
JB
Kai
Hey, you're one of the enemy. You're very quick to question ones'
'recovery' if one so much as disagrees with you. How's your
recover-o-meter react to that?
Kai
>Kai wrote:
>
>>That, and how do we get rid of the smug assholes they invaritably
>
>> are.
>
>
> On NG's use your killfile. If you don't want to do this, you could
> teach yourself to accept them for who they are and also teach yourself
> not to let them bother you :^).
Thanks for your marvellous insight. Which mountain top would it be
that you live on?
Artfulcodger
Large egos and inferiority complexes ....hmmmm....... well that certainly
covers 99.99999% of us.
Codge
JB
> JB wrote:
>
> >Kai wrote:
> >
> >>That, and how do we get rid of the smug assholes they invaritably
> >
> >> are.
> >
> >
> > On NG's use your killfile. If you don't want to do this, you
could
> > teach yourself to accept them for who they are and also teach
yourself
> > not to let them bother you :^).
>
> Thanks for your marvellous insight. Which mountain top would it be
> that you live on?
>
> --
> Kai
Ha ha :^).
If you already knew the answer to your question why ask it ? :^)
Best regards
JB