Open carry of handguns
mike....@gmail.com
holster-
knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
David
Next time you see a person open carrying, how bout you try to take his
/ her gun? Also useing your "logic" why are not all the police who open
carry taken out first? You sir, imho, are an idiot. By the way, modern
holsters do not have a strap.
David
> opposite viewpoint?
>
> I think the man is half right. Most of us who carry have secrecy on
> our side, and that is worth quite a bit in surprising some felon.
>
> As far as open carry being dangerous, I agree to this extent, some
> felon can come up behind you in a store, at a gas station pump, etc.,
> and sucker punch you before you know what's happened. This could be
> especially true with the elderly, or even a younger, smaller male.
> This is a decided disadvantage of open carry.
True
> Now let's see if you can answer an opposite opinion without calling
> someone an idiot.
I doubt very many cases can be made where a bad boy took a gun from
someone carrying open. I might be wrong, but I would bet the numbers are
very small. That said, stealth carry is a better choice. You are correct
that the "idiot part was a bit much. But still, when someone posts
something like that, the person most likely does not carry and likely
has never fired one. Better?
Peter Franks
> Don't we all feel safe seeing a person openly carring a handgun in a
> holster-
No, we all don't feel safe seeing a person openly carry.
> knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
> person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
> alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
That is a chance that the person takes. Does that bother you? If so,
why? If not, why bring it up?
I'm curious, what is the point of your post?
Scott M. Kozel
David R.Birch
Less than a week ago, a guy here in Milwaukee had his gun taken by a
thief who approached him already showing a gun.
<http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html>
David
David
Who said that life was safe?
David
OK, that is one incident. Got any more?
Scott M. Kozel
I was pointing out that the criminal doesn't have to disarm the open-
carry person to remove him from the action, he might kill him instead.
With concealed carry the criminal won't know that that person is
armed.
RosemontCrest
>
> However, I do
> understand that you gotta use the privilege somewhat, or lose it to
> the anti-gun morons who think guns only kill innocent people.
Why do you feel it necessary to denigrate with insults someone with an
opposite viewpoint?
Now let's see if you can answer an opposite opinion without calling
someone a moron.
;-)
David
Must be one of those "ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances" kind of
things.
David
Perhaps a result of all the denigrating things said about gunnies lately?
RosemontCrest
Perhaps, but I think that you may be missing the irony of
ta...@eeoru.com's previous post.
RosemontCrest
Actually, I should have written "the hypocrisy of ta...@eeoru.com's
previous post."
LEO
"David" <m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:NtmdnX2wbcpCYIrR...@giganews.com...
David. Many police officers HAVE had their own, holstered handguns taken
from them.
Did you know that there are gangs in the prisons who actually rehearse how
to come up behind a police officer and snatch his holstered gun?
I was made aware of this one evening when one of my training officers walked
up behind me and snatched my Glock from my thumb snap holster in one quick
move.
It was after that session that I always, when in public, kept my right hand
on top of the handgun grip and around the thumb snap release. I also learned
to stand at an angle to angry citizens, right side facing slightly away.
Citizens who have not had this sort of training are putting themselves and
others at risk.
And every now and then we will see a newly licensed person, usually a young
guy, carrying openly just to show off. While not illegal in our state, we
often get calls from concerned citizens and we have to respond to the
complaint.
Case in point. I was once called to check out a complaint of a young white
male, short brown hair, who was in a phone booth placing a call. He was in
front of the local Post Office. He had a large handgun on his right side (a
1911 Colt) and was causing concern. I pulled up and drew my weapon and told
him to hang up the phone. The cocky guy ignored me and continued talking
while he held up his open wallet so that he could show me his permit. I was
15-20 feet away and could not determine what he was holding up to me. I
ordered him to hang up the phone (which he did, slowly) and ordered him to
the ground. By that time I had backup with me and yes, he did have a permit
and he was legal. And yes, he did comply and go prone, but he had no choice.
We checked his permit for validity and let him go, but not before he berated
us for embarassing him in public since our actions drew quite a crowd.
We made a point in telling him that he would be much better off carrying his
weapon concealed. He got the message.
David
> On Jun 15, 8:04 pm, RosemontCrest <rosemontcr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 15, 7:42 pm, David <m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> RosemontCrest wrote:
>>>> On Jun 15, 5:03 pm, ta...@eeoru.com wrote:
>>>>> However, I do
>>>>> understand that you gotta use the privilege somewhat, or lose it to
>>>>> the anti-gun morons who think guns only kill innocent people.
>>>> Why do you feel it necessary to denigrate with insults someone with an
>>>> opposite viewpoint?
>>>> Now let's see if you can answer an opposite opinion without calling
>>>> someone a moron.
>>>> ;-)
>>> Perhaps a result of all the denigrating things said about gunnies lately?
>> Perhaps, but I think that you may be missing the irony of
>> ta...@eeoru.com's previous post.
>
> Actually, I should have written "the hypocrisy of ta...@eeoru.com's
> previous post."
OK
David
Perhaps, it's not like I have ever missed anything before.
David
Well, I guess states where open carry is legal with no permit should
change to concealed carry with no permit. Then the problem is solved, right?
RM v2.0
Yes, some do. I bought a brand new Galco 1911 holster that has a strap. My
Blackhawk Serpa has a retention device as well.
RM v2.0
"LEO" <anon@anon> wrote in message news:3r6n6f....@news.alt.net...
>
> We made a point in telling him that he would be much better off carrying
> his weapon concealed. He got the message.
>
isnt "offended". How about making the crowd aware that it is legal and his
right? This will never change as long as OC proponents kowtow to the
hoplophobe crowd.
Peter Franks
What was the pretense for that response?
Peter Franks
In case my previous post wasn't clear, I'll rephrase:
Why did you draw your weapon?
Why did you order him to hang up the phone?
What law(s) were being broken?
rigger
> LEO wrote:
> > "David" <m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:NtmdnX2wbcpCYIrR...@giganews.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Why did you draw your weapon?"
"Why did you order him to hang up the phone?"
"What law(s) were being broken?"
Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
in
kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
had
no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
Just guessin' here.
dennis
in nca
Tom S.
On Jun 16, 11:38 am, Peter Franks <n...@none.com> wrote:LEO wrote:
Case in point. I was once called to check out a complaint of a young white male, short brown hair, who was in a phone booth placing a call. He was in front of the local Post Office. He had a large handgun on his right side (a 1911 Colt) and was causing concern. I pulled up and drew my weapon and told him to hang up the phone. ...
Just showin' that elementary school is out for the summer, actually."Why did you draw your weapon?" "Why did you order him to hang up the phone?" "What law(s) were being broken?" Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond in kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police had no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST). Just guessin' here.
Indeed, he's just showing what an grossly ignorant, reading-comprehension-stunted punk he is, as usual.
LEO
"rigger" <dg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c93a4d03-ac85-4d75...@z8g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
Why? Because a person unknown to me was armed.
>
> Why did you order him to hang up the phone?
I gave a lawful order to an openly armed man.
Phone conversations mean nil.
>
Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
in
kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
had
no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
Just guessin' here.
dennis
in nca
....
Dennis...your armchair quarterbacking means nil, really.
I responded to what could have been a threat to innocent citizens.
I did my job and contained what might have turned into a dangerous
situation.
Yes, I used my "author-it-tay" as prescribed by law and upon which I took an
oath....
LEO
Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
in
kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
had
no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
Just guessin' here.
dennis
in nca
.............
Sounds like Dennis in NCA knows little about law enforcement, though he may
have spent some time in the back seat of a squad car...
David
>>
>> Why did you draw your weapon?
>
> Why? Because a person unknown to me was armed.
>
> I gave a lawful order to an openly armed man.
> Phone conversations mean nil.
>
> Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
> police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
> in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
> to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
> in
> kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
> had
> no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
>
> Just guessin' here.
>
> dennis
> in nca
>
> ....
> Dennis...your armchair quarterbacking means nil, really.
> I responded to what could have been a threat to innocent citizens.
your weapon drawn, ready to shoot. While the law abiding citizen was
doing nothing illegal or wrong. > I did my job and contained what might
> situation.
> oath....
>
>
>
>
>
>
What was the complaint? That a man was carrying in compliance with
the law? So you assumed that he was a danger? Even though the law says
it is OK to open carry? Why did you not respect the law and simply wait
till he had finished his call, respectfully ask to speak with him? And
determine that he was not a threat? Oh no, you treated him as a criminal
and ordered him to hit the dirt. Are you that fearful of your law
abiding fellow citizens? You should be damn glad that he has not hired a
good attorney and askede the court to teach you some manners. He was not
breaking any law. He was not threatning you or anyone else. You very
likely broke the law. If not, you are at least the reason why people
distrust police officers. Perhaps that is why you were so afraid of a
LAW ABIDING CITIZEN. If you are so fearful, perhaps you should seek
safer employment.
David
are that you threatened a law abiding citizen.
Tom S.
Tom S.
You two really should get some real information, not just crap you watch
on TV and movies.
I predict that LEO will give a lot more details in a followup, including
citation of the law, but it'll go right over these two punks' heads.
David
Nice, calling people you do not know "punks" No unlike you I have never
been in a police car. If the citation of the law says this was OK, the
law is wrong. The LAW says it is legal to openly carry. Do you have a
reading problem? The LAW does not say that officers should force people
openly carrying to stop doing within the law act to lay on the ground.
What part of LEGAL OPEN CARRY do you not understand? IMHO, this officer
abused his position, and should be removed from the force.
Peter Franks
And?
Would you issue the same order at a gun range?
They guy wasn't violating any law. You, on the other hand, violated his
rights.
>> Why did you order him to hang up the phone?
>
> I gave a lawful order to an openly armed man.
> Phone conversations mean nil.
There was no legal justification for your command.
> Dennis...your armchair quarterbacking means nil, really.
> I responded to what could have been a threat to innocent citizens.
> I did my job and contained what might have turned into a dangerous
> situation.
> Yes, I used my "author-it-tay" as prescribed by law and upon which I took an
> oath....
That's where you are wrong. I respect you and your commitment to public
safety, but there was no issue here other than an over reactive
'concerned' citizen in irrational fear.
All that you did in this case is to perpetuate that irrational fear of
an ignorant citizen. Nice.
Dad
"Peter Franks" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:hvdmv9$ku$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Well said.
Thank you,
Dad
Peter Franks
Wow, that was unexpected. Sure, you're welcome.
WangoTango
says...
David R.Birch
>> I gave a lawful order to an openly armed man.
>> Phone conversations mean nil.
>
> There was no legal justification for your command.
I agree. After our state Attorney General pointed out that open carry
was legal in Wisconsin, our Milwaukee Chief of Police ordered his
officers to take any openly carrying citizen to the ground and disarm
him until it was determined that he was NOT a threat. This is guilty
until proven innocent.
>
>> Dennis...your armchair quarterbacking means nil, really.
>> I responded to what could have been a threat to innocent citizens.
>> I did my job and contained what might have turned into a dangerous
>> situation.
>> Yes, I used my "author-it-tay" as prescribed by law and upon which I
>> took an oath....
>
> That's where you are wrong. I respect you and your commitment to public
> safety, but there was no issue here other than an over reactive
> 'concerned' citizen in irrational fear.
>
> All that you did in this case is to perpetuate that irrational fear of
> an ignorant citizen. Nice.
This became an issue in Wisconsin because a suburban landlord was
openly carrying while doing yard work on one of his properties. A
hysterical neighbor called the cops, he was charged with disorderly
conduct, case was thrown out by the judge, but the citizen still had
to pay for a mouthpiece, etc. After this, the Attorney General spoke up.
Ironically, when Governor Doyle was refusing to sign a CCW bill for
the second time, he too pointed out that open carry was an option.
David
bo peep
> I doubt very many cases can be made where a bad boy took a gun from
> someone carrying open. I might be wrong, but I would bet the numbers are
> very small.
In 2009 alone, 2 police officers were killed with their own open carry
weapons. This seems to happen to some extent every year. And note that
police officers usually use "retention" holsters, making it much
harder for someone else to get the gun out.
David
As I said, small. Plus officers go to places and deal with people most
of us avoid, armed or not. Job hazard and all that.
bo peep
> As I said, small.
Not really - thats more than 4% of all the officers killed
> Plus officers go to places and deal with people most
> of us avoid, armed or not. Job hazard and all that.
If you ever have to defend yourself, there is a pretty good chance
that your attacker will be a member of that same group of people. Not
many people are attacked by librarians and CPAs.
David
Only had to once. Guy had a knife. Small, but to me it looked like
sword. I may have responded with a bit too much force, but what the hell
I was scared.
Stormin Mormon
concealed carry by crooks.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"miste...@yahoo.com" <mike....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4da7eacc-81a1-4a44...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Stormin Mormon
least bit anxious. Other people, if they'd had a plastic spoon, it
would have scared me. My guess is that you were aware of the suspect's
auora, or the bad vibes he was radiating. That awareness may well have
saved your life, or a stay at the hospital.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David" <m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:RKednR-Xw9XDy4bR...@giganews.com...
David
> I've seen people with knives (big and small) that didn't make my the
> least bit anxious. Other people, if they'd had a plastic spoon, it
> would have scared me. My guess is that you were aware of the suspect's
> auora, or the bad vibes he was radiating. That awareness may well have
> saved your life, or a stay at the hospital.
>
When he said give me money, I got a clue.
David
> I'd rather see legal open carry by good citizens. As opposed to
> concealed carry by crooks.
>
Works for me.
RM v2.0
"David R.Birch" <dbi...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hve4k...@news6.newsguy.com...
> Peter Franks wrote:>>>
>
> I agree. After our state Attorney General pointed out that open carry was
> legal in Wisconsin, our Milwaukee Chief of Police ordered his officers to
> take any openly carrying citizen to the ground and disarm him until it was
> determined that he was NOT a threat. This is guilty until proven innocent.
>>
We had one of those, Chuck Rosenthal in Houston. Asshole flagrantly violated
State laws by arresting people.
>
> This became an issue in Wisconsin because a suburban landlord was openly
> carrying while doing yard work on one of his properties. A hysterical
> neighbor called the cops, he was charged with disorderly conduct, case was
> thrown out by the judge, but the citizen still had to pay for a
> mouthpiece, etc. After this, the Attorney General spoke up.
>
I would definitely have filed a civil suit on that neighbor and against the
city. Only way they learn is by taking their money. At most the officer
should have drove by and saw their was nothing to deal with.
LEO
"miste...@yahoo.com" <mike....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4da7eacc-81a1-4a44...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Don't we all feel safe seeing a person openly carring a handgun in a
> holster-
>
> knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
> person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
> alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
Stats show that those bent upon preying upon others will avoid someone with
a holstered weapon.
LEO
>>> miste...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> Don't we all feel safe seeing a person openly carring a handgun in a
>>>> holster-
>>>>
>>>> knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
>>>> person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
>>>> alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
>> continued talking while he held up his open wallet so that he could show
>> me his permit. I was 15-20 feet away and could not determine what he was
>> holding up to me. I ordered him to hang up the phone (which he did,
>> slowly) and ordered him to the ground. By that time I had backup with me
>> and yes, he did have a permit and he was legal. And yes, he did comply
>> and go prone, but he had no choice. We checked his permit for validity
>> and let him go, but not before he berated us for embarassing him in
>> public since our actions drew quite a crowd.
>> We made a point in telling him that he would be much better off carrying
>> his weapon concealed. He got the message.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Well, I guess states where open carry is legal with no permit should
> change to concealed carry with no permit. Then the problem is solved,
> right?
Correct, as Arizona just did.
The goal is to NOT let scofflaws know that a person is "carrying".
David
One way to deal with it might be to allow both open or concealed as a
person pleases. A very large % of the bad boys would not be so brave if
they see guns and they know that they don't see all the guns. Or arm
everyone, wait two weeks till the dust settles, and most law breakers
would be dead or wounded. Hard to steal grandmas purse if everyone on
the street is armed. Not a perfect solution, but better than to continue
to expect the police to always protect you.
Why carry a gun? Cause a cop wont fit in my
pocket.
LEO
"RM v2.0" <Bl...@spamsux.com> wrote in message
news:k06Sn.414439$Up1.3...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>
> "LEO" <anon@anon> wrote in message news:3r6n6f....@news.alt.net...
>>
>> We made a point in telling him that he would be much better off carrying
>> his weapon concealed. He got the message.
>>
> isnt "offended". How about making the crowd aware that it is legal and his
> right? This will never change as long as OC proponents kowtow to the
> hoplophobe crowd.
His "rights" were not compromised. We did not tell him to keep his open
carry hidden from public view.
We suggested that it would be in his best interest to carry his new toy
under concealment.
He gave up no rights...nor did we trample on same.
LEO
No "pretense". It was a frightened citizen's complaint.
And you would suggest a different response?
How would YOU, in your great wisdom, have handled this?
LEO
What a silly response.
And shallow.
If you were to see a stranger in your front yard, carrying a sidearm, would
you go outside and ask him or her what he was up to? Or would you call the
Police?
When we respond to a "man with a gun" call, we MUST assume that the person
in question is a threat.
Yes, we respond with guns drawn...and we call for backup.
I have no fear of law abiding citizens. I do worry about the non-law abiding
citizens who go armed.
You don't have to deal with them, I do.
We did as we have been trained to do. Protect the public and ourselves.
Your supposition that I "broke the law" is based on which law?
I performed a reasonable stop and search...as prescribed by law and by the
responsibilites that I was hired and sworn to enforce.
Had I simply brushed this guy off and let him wander off, I would have been
derelict of my duty.
LEO
By approaching an unknown person, who had an openly carried sidearm?
This "law abiding citizen" could have had a half dozen warrants out for his
arrest.
I didn't know that.
He could have just come from robbing a store...or shooting someone.
I didn't know that.
And if this guy was a mental case (I didn't know that) he could just as
quickly have drawn that 1911 and shot at me...ergo the reason I remained
behind the cover of my squad car and ordered him to the ground.
This may come as a shock to you, but we don't just walk up to a gun carrying
person and say, "Hey, buddy...how are you doing tonight?"
LEO
The "ignorant citizen" in this case is none other than yourself.
No insult intended.
David
You put him inb the dirt for no reason other than some Nervous Nellie
and your own fear. What part of this did you not understand? He was
breaking no law. He was molesting nobody. You ordered him to the ground.
That is abuse of authority. You were scared because he was armed,
legally. Are you a rookie or is this all a made up story?
David
Oh officer! I'm scared because that man is doing something the law says
is ok. But I'm scared, will you please go over there and threaten his
life by drawing your weapon which is a clear intent to shoot, and
forcing him to hang up the phone. While you are at it please order him
to get on the ground so he can feel your mightyness. You sir should not
only be removed from the force, you should be charged with abuse of
authority. I have seen other officers handle OC in a legal , honorable
manner. They simply walked to the individual and like a man, asked if he
knew he was making Nellie nervous? Why did you not tell Nellie that it
was legal and she should just calm down? Why did you ASSume that he was
NOT a law abiding citizen. One who pays your salary you might note.
David
Bull Shit. You put him on the ground. You were wrong.
David
You should find a less risky job. Police work is clearly too much for
you. What with you imagining normal people doing legal things MIGHT be a
threat so you should abuse them. What would you have done if he told you
to screw yourself, he had broken no law, was no threat, and went on with
his conversation? Would you have shot him and later claimed he pulled
his legal gun? Would you have called for backup pissing away time and
money of the Dept.? Why do you think ,in an open carry state, that you
have any authority to act as you did? You molested a law abiding citizen.
David
You should be aware that you might be talking to another officer here.
Or even the occasional judge who comes here. You as an officer had the
right and duty to investigate. You had no right nor authority to order
him to the ground. If your commander says to handle these situations in
this manner, he is also wrong and will very possibly end up in court
defending his and your irrational action. Or at the minimum, attending
remedial training.
Dad
I'm buying the made up story. Actually if you look at this guys online
activity one would think he may be incarcerated now. He posts under
many names for awhile and then disappears. Check out his many screen
names and the similarities to his posts and posting habits.
We all know the "Serve and Protect" is false, the courts have said
they don't have to protect "you".
http://www.lewrockwell.com/hein/hein180.html
Dad
"LEO" <anon@anon> wrote in message
They always stop and make a phone call to Mom after doing a good job.
> And if this guy was a mental case (I didn't know that) he could just
> as quickly have drawn that 1911 and shot at me...ergo the reason I
> remained behind the cover of my squad car and ordered him to the
> ground.
>
> This may come as a shock to you, but we don't just walk up to a gun
> carrying person and say, "Hey, buddy...how are you doing tonight?"
>
>
Why not, you do that with fellow officers.
David
Fortunately, most real police officers do just that. I think ol "LEO" is
not an officer at all. I doubt that he is a security guard. I think he
is a plant from the anti-gun genetic rejects. Note how he got very
silent after I asked for the law that says he should treat citizens that
way? He is a phony. But it has been a great debate, what?
David
> On 6/17/2010 5:17 AM, David wrote:
>> LEO wrote:
>>> Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
>>> police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
>>> in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
>>> to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
>>> in
>>> kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
>>> had
>>> no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
>>>
>>> Just guessin' here.
>>>
>>> dennis
>>> in nca
>>>
>>> .............
>>>
>>> Sounds like Dennis in NCA knows little about law enforcement, though
>>> he may have spent some time in the back seat of a squad car...
>>>
>> With police like you, who needs criminals to threaten them? The FACTS
>> are that you threatened a law abiding citizen.
>
> You two really should get some real information, not just crap you watch
> on TV and movies.
>
> I predict that LEO will give a lot more details in a followup, including
> citation of the law, but it'll go right over these two punks' heads.
You, calling other people "punks"??? Now that is rich. Is your ass still
sore?
Peter Franks
Fear? Come on.
> And you would suggest a different response?
>
> How would YOU, in your great wisdom, have handled this?
I would have driven up in my, sorry, the taxpayer's patrol car, seen a
guy in a phone booth having a conversation, and noticed his holstered
open-carry weapon.
I would have then assessed the situation and determined if there were
any laws being broken, or if there was any reasonable indication that a
law was about to be broken. Seeing neither, I would have then asked the
"frightened citizen" to justify their "complaint".
"B-b-b-b-because h-h-he h-h-has a-a-a g-g-gun!"
"Well Jane, open carry is legal, and he is a law-abiding citizen,
probably MUCH MORE SO than you, your neighbors, and your friends. He
has every right to be here, doing what he is doing. Good day."
"B-b-but h-h-he could shoot someone!"
"And you could run over someone in your car. Shall I take /you/ to jail
now?"
---
Dude, no offense, but your response only contributes to the problem of
irrational hysteria. You didn't do your duty by protecting the rights
of others, you instead perpetuated the pretense of fear.
Peter Franks
Perhaps. I don't go around calling the cops if I see a gun, however.
I'll stick to ignorance 10-to-1 over being paralyzed with irrational fear.
> No insult intended.
None taken. Don't take this personal -- just realize that you made a
mistake and correct it.
Peter Franks
And what if that person were carrying /concealed/? You'd have walked
right past him.
The point is that you had NO INDICATION that any law HAD or was ABOUT TO
be broken. Therefore, your response MUST BE to treat them as a LAW
ABIDING citizen. If you, your Lt. or whomever tells you what to do
disagrees with that, then go and find another job.
The police force was established at the pleasure of the public to
ENFORCE LAWS. No laws being broken, go about your business.
LEO
"normal people doing legal things" is your quote.
Unfortunately, in the real world, we oftentimes deal with "unnormal people",
people who are under stress, people who have mental issues, people who are
not thinking clearly, etc.
We do not know, on approach, what we are dealing with.
The male was openly carrying a handgun. That was an issue for concern in and
of itself.
I do not at all have to justify my actions to the likes of you.
LEO
If, as you seem to imply, that you "might" be a brother officer, then I
would strongly suggest that your department review and update their training
policies.
I acted according to my training and owe you or some of the alleged "judges"
that you allude to, no apology.
LEO
The man indeed had broken no laws, but again, I did not know that when I
responded to the complaint.
The individual was, as I said, told that it would be better if he would at
least pull his shirt over the weapon, thus not causing undue consternation
from passers-by.
You can second-guess me all you wish. Go for it.
This group has no shortage of armchair quarterbacks...
LEO
And if you, IF you have ever driven a squad car, and IF you have ever been a
LEO, what would your response have been if, say, you had done a traffic stop
and saw a handgun on the seat, or on the floorboard, or even in the driver's
belt?
Would you play "nicey-nice" and kindly ask the driver if he had a license
for the gun?
You would be a fool to do so.
As one of our training gurus instructed, prepare for the worst, hope for the
best.
Sorry to disappoint you, but when we see a handgun, or a long gun for that
matter, we treat it as a potential threat. Our training is to isolate and
neutralize that threat.
There is no irrational hysteria involved.
We want to go home at the end of our work day, too.
David
THE MALE WAS NOT BREAKING ANY LAW!!!! What part of that fails to reach
your diminished brain? Carrying a weapon openly in an open carry
jurisdiction is NOT an issue for your concern. You are an issue for all
law abiding citizens to be concerned about. You need to be removed to a
safe place where you cannot commit any more assaults on the public.
And yes, you, as a public employee DO need to justify your actions under
color of law. You are my employee, you work for me. You only have
employment because of my graciousness to pick you up and give you a
paycheck.
David
find a better quality dog school. Judges don't care if you think you
"Owe" them anything. They deal with what you owe the public. I doubt
very much that you are or ever were an officer. Please help us all here
and provide something to verify your status. Or be viewed as something
less than worthy of respect in any fashion. Something that sinks to the
bottom comes to mind.
David
where open carry is legal? Do you live in a place where concealed carry
is legal? Do people there need a permit for open carry? Do they need a
permit for concealed carry? Did he have a permit?
Were I DA where you are I would not second guess you at all. I would
charge you with abuse of authority under color of law. I would press for
the maximum sentence to hopefully deter future bad apples from ever
joining the force.
David
Phony, never a cop. Your training , if that were true, puts you and
anyone nearby in danger. You should be taken off the streets.
Dad
> LEO wrote:
>> "Peter Franks" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:hvk52d$6q9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> And if you, IF you have ever driven a squad car, and IF you have
>> ever been a LEO, what would your response have been if, say, you
>> had done a traffic stop and saw a handgun on the seat, or on the
>> floorboard, or even in the driver's belt?
>> Would you play "nicey-nice" and kindly ask the driver if he had a
>> license for the gun?
>> You would be a fool to do so.
>> As one of our training gurus instructed, prepare for the worst,
>> hope for the best.
>>
>> Sorry to disappoint you, but when we see a handgun, or a long gun
>> for that matter, we treat it as a potential threat. Our training is
>> to isolate and neutralize that threat.
>>
>> There is no irrational hysteria involved.
>> We want to go home at the end of our work day, too.
>>
>
> Phony, never a cop. Your training , if that were true, puts you and
> anyone nearby in danger. You should be taken off the streets.
Yesterday, as I do on many occasions, I traveled across state lines
carrying a long gun. I also tend to travel at a rapid rate and have
been stopped and sometimes ticketed for doing an unacceptable rapid
travel rate. The car I drive has no trunk or a place to put a long gun
out of sight or locked out of reach, as some states require. One of
those stops I had 2 rifles that were in sight of the state police, not
a state patrolman, and there is a difference. After the general line
of questions and presentation of my paper work he then ask what I was
doing with the rifles and I told him. He then gave me a verbal warning
and said keep it down a bit and be careful and let me proceed.
After an all night drive back from shooting prairie dogs, that I have
been chided for by a man that is willing to kill a man legally
carrying a 1911, I hastily packed for an early morning flight. In my
haste I did not find that my small revolver (snake gun) had slipped
under the hard floor of my soft side bag.
When that bag didn't come thought the scanner I turned to see why and
knew by the look on the attendance's faces that I was in big trouble.
At the same time I noticed a very large deputy sheriff coming my way.
He took my bag and me into his office and questioned me. He never had
me on the ground nor did he cuff me, he also told me how I needed to
proceed to allow me to board my flight so I wouldn't be charged with
obstruction of interstate travel even if it was my own travel, big
fine, $40/50k.
My best ally in the next 6 months that it took to clear up my error
was the police department that handled my case. Yes, I was fined for
violating a sterile space at the terminal but that was all, no weapon
charges so I can still buy and own firearms. Since then I have also
applied for and trained (what a joke) for CCW, which I now have with
me at all times. I also retrieved my handgun after some effort which
included finding out which office had it, but that's another story.
All this is to say there are good cops and there are bad cops and with
a bit more luck I'll never run onto a "LEO" out there when he is
released or off his meds.
David
Now THAT'S a great post.
Peter Franks
Really? The "frightened citizen" wasn't irrational?
They were, and so was your response.
> We want to go home at the end of our work day, too.
Well then we should work together to make the penalties harsher for
violent criminals instead of your* unjustified response to a law abiding
citizen. Think about the consequences of your response:
- The OC more than likely has less trust and respect for law enforcement.
- The "frightened citizen" more than likely feels like they did a good
deed and saved the town from a potential crazed gun maniac.
Both of those conclusions are a disservice to society.
* Where I disagree with your individual response to this situation, this
isn't so much about you as it is about a broken legal system in which
the law-abiding are more and more vilified by
totalitarian-intolerant-liberal mentality and the law-breaking are
classed as 'victims of society'. We are witnessing that which has been
foretold for centuries: that which is right will be considered wrong,
and that which is wrong will be considered right.
Have a nice, safe, day.
Peter Franks
Then you treat the individual as a LAW ABIDING citizen.
> The individual was, as I said, told that it would be better if he would at
> least pull his shirt over the weapon, thus not causing undue consternation
> from passers-by.
Tell the consternated passer-bys to shove it. The OC was obeying the law.
> You can second-guess me all you wish. Go for it.
> This group has no shortage of armchair quarterbacks...
Guilty on all three counts.
I respect the law enforcement and legal system when it protects the
rights of the law-abiding. I have a problem with it when it violates
their rights.
RM v2.0
"LEO" <anon@anon> wrote in message news:3rek9d....@news.alt.net...> news:hvb5ku$57s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> miste...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Don't we all feel safe seeing a person openly carring a handgun in a
>>>>> holster-
>>>>>
>>>>> knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
>>>>> person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
>>>>> alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
>>>> Next time you see a person open carrying, how bout you try to take his
>>>> / her gun? Also useing your "logic" why are not all the police who open
>>>> carry taken out first? You sir, imho, are an idiot. By the way, modern
>>>> holsters do not have a strap.
>>>
>
>
> How would YOU, in your great wisdom, have handled this?
>
>
If a citizen calls in a bank robbery because a guy hands a teller a note
are you going to take down the customer asap? At most I would ask the OC
person politely some innocent questions to try and determine if something
was wrong. No need to order him off his phone, it could be important to stay
on the call. If he was on the phone engrossed in a call, he couldnt be much
of a threat.
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David" <m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:RKednQyXw9Up6YbR...@giganews.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I've seen people with knives (big and small) that didn't make my the
> least bit anxious. Other people, if they'd had a plastic spoon, it
> would have scared me. My guess is that you were aware of the
> suspect's
> auora, or the bad vibes he was radiating. That awareness may well
> have
> saved your life, or a stay at the hospital.
>
When he said give me money, I got a clue.
Stormin Mormon
citizens should not be manipulated by others irrational fears.
I have a fear of cops with guns. So, you cops better leave your guns
in the squad car.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Peter Franks" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:hvmtqu$kt0$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Peter Franks
> I was hoping someone would reach that point. Thank you. Law abiding
> citizens should not be manipulated by others irrational fears.
>
> I have a fear of cops with guns. So, you cops better leave your guns
> in the squad car.
Exactly.
BF
> Don't we all feel safe seeing a person openly carring a handgun in a
> holster-
>
> knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
> person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
> alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
I have a permit to carry and would not want to open carry but I am not
against open carry. Although open carry could be a problem, I wonder how
many criminals would postpone their criminal act to another time and
possibly place if he/she saw someone with a gun. What would happen if
they saw two people with guns. I really don't think they would try anything.
rigger
> Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
> police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
> in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
> to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
> in
> kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
> had
> no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
>
> Just guessin' here.
>
> dennis
> in nca
>
> .............
>
> Sounds like Dennis in NCA knows little about law enforcement, though he may
> have spent some time in the back seat of a squad car...
This kind of childlike response shows off the average IQ of police
today.
Many haven't even managed to complete high school. So you take a
undereducated bully, overpay them, and put them in charge of other
uneducated bullies (the criminal) Pretty soon they begin to think
THEY
are in charge (otherwise why would they make so much money, right?).
Which brings us to UNIONS. For a mind experiment imagine (going
back 20 or 30 years) you find, through some political mixup, the
Teamsters Union was suddenly in charge of the law and they were
the ONLY ones who could own weapons.
Well guess what? This is close to what we have today and what
LEOs (present company possibly excepted) would like society
to become. This is for their benifit; then they wouldn't have to
worry about those pesky LAWS that are supposed to control
police behavior.
LEO boy, you sound like a simple person, always ready to attack
anyone willing to diagree with you; in other words a typical cop.
dennis
in nca
rigger
>
>
>
>
>
> > LEO wrote:
> >> Guess? Typical cop show to demonstrate his athor-it-tay. Also many
> >> police seem more fearfull than I remember, maybe due to not being
> >> in the "10 most dangerous jobs" list anymore? So this leaves a threat
> >> to their "author-it-tay" as their most serious threat and they respond
> >> in
> >> kind (after all, if actual dangerous "gang" people thought the police
> >> had
> >> no more "author-it-tay" things could go downhill FAST).
>
> >> Just guessin' here.
>
> >> dennis
> >> in nca
>
> >> .............
>
> >> Sounds like Dennis in NCA knows little about law enforcement, though he
> >> may have spent some time in the back seat of a squad car...
> > that you threatened a law abiding citizen.
>
> By approaching an unknown person, who had an openly carried sidearm?
> This "law abiding citizen" could have had a half dozen warrants out for his
> arrest.
> I didn't know that.
> He could have just come from robbing a store...or shooting someone.
> I didn't know that.
> And if this guy was a mental case (I didn't know that) he could just as
> quickly have drawn that 1911 and shot at me...ergo the reason I remained
> behind the cover of my squad car and ordered him to the ground.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Coward.
dennis
in nca
rigger
> LEO wrote:
> > "Peter Franks" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> >news:hvb5ku$57s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...> >>>news:NtmdnX2wbcpCYIrR...@giganews.com...
> >>>> misterf...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> Don't we all feel safe seeing a person openly carring a handgun in a
> >>>>> holster-
>
> >>>>> knowing that a criminal, if intent on doing harm, will kill that
> >>>>> person first before he's even able to unlatch the safety strap., let
> >>>>> alone get his gunout of the holster?? !!
> >>>> / her gun? Also useing your "logic" why are not all the police who open
> >>>> carry taken out first? You sir, imho, are an idiot. By the way, modern
> >>>> holsters do not have a strap.
> >>> from them.
> >>> Did you know that there are gangs in the prisons who actually rehearse
> >>> how to come up behind a police officer and snatch his holstered gun?
> >>> I was made aware of this one evening when one of my training officers
> >>> walked up behind me and snatched my Glock from my thumb snap holster in
> >>> one quick move.
> >>> It was after that session that I always, when in public, kept my right
> >>> hand on top of the handgun grip and around the thumb snap release. I also
> >>> learned to stand at an angle to angry citizens, right side facing
> >>> slightly away.
> >>> Citizens who have not had this sort of training are putting themselves
> >>> and others at risk.
> >>> And every now and then we will see a newly licensed person, usually a
> >>> young guy, carrying openly just to show off. While not illegal in our
> >>> state, we often get calls from concerned citizens and we have to respond
> >>> to the complaint.
> >>> Case in point. I was once called to check out a complaint of a young
> >>> white male, short brown hair, who was in a phone booth placing a call. He
> >>> was in front of the local Post Office. He had a large handgun on his
> >>> right side (a 1911 Colt) and was causing concern. I pulled up and drew my
> >>> weapon and told him to hang up the phone.
> >> What was the pretense for that response?
>
> > And you would suggest a different response?
>
> > How would YOU, in your great wisdom, have handled this?
>
> is ok. But I'm scared, will you please go over there and threaten his
> life by drawing your weapon which is a clear intent to shoot, and
> forcing him to hang up the phone. While you are at it please order him
> to get on the ground so he can feel your mightyness. You sir should not
> only be removed from the force, you should be charged with abuse of
> authority. I have seen other officers handle OC in a legal , honorable
> manner. They simply walked to the individual and like a man, asked if he
> knew he was making Nellie nervous? Why did you not tell Nellie that it
> was legal and she should just calm down? Why did you ASSume that he was
> NOT a law abiding citizen. One who pays your salary you might note.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Because he's a coward.
dennis
in nca
rigger
>
> - Show quoted text -
"I do not at all have to justify my actions to the likes of you."
Yeah, who in the hell do you think YOU are, a damned tax
paying citizen? He's the f'ing king and he'll have his bully
boy friends beat you up if you don't agree. This is the only
way these undereducated cops think; and this is promoted
by management and politicians so they can have their
trained dogs ready when needed.
dennis
in nca
rigger
>
>
>
>
>
> > LEO wrote:
> >> "Peter Franks" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
" I acted according to my training " This is the mantra they hide
behind
in the courts. I'll rephrase: I vas only following orters, mein
herr!!!!
The same brutality and the same pathetic excuse from the same
pathetic excuse of a human.
dennis
in nca
rigger
> "Peter Franks" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hvk52d$6q9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > LEO wrote:
> >> "Peter Franks" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> >>news:hvb5ku$57s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> LEO wrote:
> >>>> "David" <m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:NtmdnX2wbcpCYIrR...@giganews.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
A "straw man" is an argument which uses a "made-up" scenario:
So WE talk about a private citizen in a phone booth and you
set up your straw man to take the argument away from the
facts under discussion.
SUPRISE We all know about this tactic, which has no doubt
held you in good stead with your fellow officers and usual
customers. So don't waste our time; either answer the questions
or stop wasting our time. And take your sock puppet with
you (yes, we know about those as well).
dennis
in nca