Re: Question for Kel-Tec .380 Pistol Owners, please.
Alex Clayton
news:16242-454...@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net...
>I looked at one this afternoon. I was amazed at how light it was , yet
> could hold 7 rounds. Holding the pistol gave me the impression that it
> was rather flimsey and without much meat on it ; is the general
> consensus that this Pistol is of high quality ? Is it reliable ? Any
> problems associated with this Pistol ? Any info on it would be
> appreciated. What other make/model would be considered its competitor ?
> Thanks much.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________
> Heaven....don't myth it !
> ___________________
>
I bought 2 of it's predecessor, the P-32 shortly after they hit. I had
wanted a .32 Seecamp for years. I just could not see spending the kind of
money you had to lay out at that time to get one, and the Co had a bad rep
for service. Then this came along. You had to get on a waiting list to get
one. When my turn came up and they called me I was all excited until they
handed it to me. My first impression was "I just paid $250.00 for a damn
toy". I went back to the range with it and wife. After a couple trips back
out front for more ammo, I came out and got back on the waiting list for
another. <G>. There is at this time no real competition to the P-32 or P3AT.
The NAA Arms or Seecamp are about the same size but when you handle them the
difference in the weight. They feel like a rock in your pocket. Both of my
P-32's, and my P3 have been 100% from day one. Like ALL auto's it's not un
common for one to need some break it when new. Like ALL mass manufactured
guns people do occasionally get a problem. KT has customer service that all
others should try to copy. You have a problem they fix it fast and free. The
little .380 does have what some consider to be stout recoil. My wife elected
to keep her .32 after trying my .380. Of course neither is a "best" choice
for defense, but they give you the ability to always have a gun. You can
drop one in a pocket and forget it. Other than my NAA mini .22 it is the
only pistol I have ever seen yet that was really easy to drop in a pocket
and forget about.
I am still a VERY big 1911 fan, but I now have 4 KT hand guns and 2 of their
pistol caliber rifles, and love them.
--
Note:
If you find a message or posting from me inappropriate or disruptive just
ignore it. If you do not know to ignore it just E-Mail me to complain and I
will be only too happy to demonstrate.
Brian Bunin
Gotta agree 100%
My only comment would be that the Kahr PM9 is not TOO MUCH larger. It's larger
enough not to fit easily in all pockets, though. I carry the KelTec P3AT when
I cannot carry the Kahr.
Dov Benyamin
the tiny 380 drops in my pocket (in a pocket holster) and is hardly
noticeable as I walk around. I plink with it once a month or so, and after
the initial break in, has ben reliable with my carry ammo.
Is it what I'd choose if I knew there would be trouble? Not at all. But
that's why there's a 1911 and a shotgun by my bed, a 1911 in my desk, and a
9mm Kahr in my truck.
EdDiffeye
"Compare Beretta Tomcat, KelTec P3AT, & new Bersa CC?"
-- Ed
Alex Clayton
> 'The little .380 does have what some consider to be stout recoil. My
> wife elected to keep her .32 after trying my .380. Of course neither is
> a "best" choice for defense, but they give you the ability to always
>
> REPLY: Well., is it an 'adequate' choice for defense ? Im told that a
> 380 is the same as a 9 mm ; Police like 9mm , so, isnt a .380
> adequate ? Thanks.
>
"Adequate" is a very relative term. "I" don't feel real comfortable with
anything that fit's a hand gun I would be willing to carry as a reliable
defense round. You have to make trade offs. While I would love to have a
12ga with me if trouble popped up they tend to be a real drag to pack
around. <G>. So you carry what you are willing to carry. I much prefer a
1911 in .45ACP to the .380 or .32 but I am not always willing to carry one,
and the .380 or .32 beats hell out of whatever was left at home.
Ballistic wise the .380 is about on par with a standard .38 special, not
even close to the 9x19 which is what most people refer to when they say 9mm.
I do have a 9mm made by Kel-Tec. I carry that when I used to carry a 5 shot
small frame .38. It is as easy to carry and has 11 rounds of +P HP's which
beat anything in .38 hands down. ANY hand gun in ANY caliber is better than
nothing, but even the larger calibers do not do what they show on TV. If
your life is in danger the bad guy may well not be stopped by being hit with
a round from anything you are willing to carry. Still better to have
anything rather than rely on dial a prayer.
--
GUN CONTROL: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.
Dad
"Alex Clayton" <alex...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gfKdnd2j2LJVK9rY...@nventure.com...
> "Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInL...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:16243-454...@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net...
>>
>> 380 is the same as a 9 mm ; Police like 9mm , so, isnt a .380
>> adequate ? Thanks.
>>
>
> "Adequate" is a very relative term. "I" don't feel real comfortable with
> anything that fit's a hand gun I would be willing to carry as a reliable
> defense round. You have to make trade offs. While I would love to have a 12ga
> with me if trouble popped up they tend to be a real drag to pack around. <G>.
> So you carry what you are willing to carry. I much prefer a 1911 in .45ACP to
> the .380 or .32 but I am not always willing to carry one, and the .380 or .32
> beats hell out of whatever was left at home.
> Ballistic wise the .380 is about on par with a standard .38 special, not even
> close to the 9x19 which is what most people refer to when they say 9mm. I do
> have a 9mm made by Kel-Tec. I carry that when I used to carry a 5 shot small
> frame .38. It is as easy to carry and has 11 rounds of +P HP's which beat
> anything in .38 hands down. ANY hand gun in ANY caliber is better than
> nothing, but even the larger calibers do not do what they show on TV. If your
> life is in danger the bad guy may well not be stopped by being hit with a
> round from anything you are willing to carry. Still better to have anything
> rather than rely on dial a prayer.
> --
have is that quite often I end up in someplace that doesn't allow CCW and
realize I have it in my pocket. That's part of carrying, learning how to cope
with life's little problems.
As a side note don't buy into the hollowpoint bit for the .380, stay with the
FMJ or lead to get some penetration into the soft stuff through heavy clothes.
--
Dad
One more gun is just enough, maybe.
Alex Clayton
news:I7WdnVZCsLqGV9rY...@bright.net...
> Well said, I carried a NAA .380 until the Kel-tec came along. The only
> problem I have is that quite often I end up in someplace that doesn't
> allow CCW and realize I have it in my pocket. That's part of carrying,
> learning how to cope with life's little problems.
>
> As a side note don't buy into the hollowpoint bit for the .380, stay with
> the FMJ or lead to get some penetration into the soft stuff through heavy
> clothes.
>
> --
> Dad
>
> One more gun is just enough, maybe.
>
I have come close to trying to walk into someplace that does not allow guns
a couple times when I was carrying a NAA.22. Made me pay more attention. I
years ago gave up on HP's in the .380 and .32's. I used to stack them as an
every other round, but long ago just went to ball. For the same reason, if I
have to use one of the mouse guns it will be at close range and I want as
much penetration as I can get. With the little 9 I use the new Speer "short
barrel +P" stuff. I tried a couple boxes of it and it convinced me to buy
some more. Works VERY well in the little compact 9s.
Rose Melinis
pocket or purse.
The only trouble I have had is with the inside of the trigger guard. It has
a mold line down the center and that really hurt my finger after firing
about 20 rounds. My hubby polished it off and that made a big difference. It
is only a 9mm but it recoils heavy for me. I have 9mm Taurus Millennium and
also two revolver .357's. The P3AT is the worst for me to shoot but it is
for my carry gun so I just live with it.
"Alex Clayton" <alex...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zNudnQOU6ZlKAtvY...@nventure.com...
Niki
> I bought 2 of it's predecessor, the P-32 shortly after they hit.
I have a Keltec P32. It feels like a toy. But it fits in my pocket nicely.
It shoots left. I think it has to do with the 2 colors on the front site and
a bit of overrun. It can be fixed, and will.
Whatever we shot after, I did much better with. Higher cal of course. Head
and neck shots are instructor's. I do believe that was his tricked out .45.
It had to have been. There's his own reloaded ammo. It has such a nice hair
trigger and little recoil. Awesome gun. If I ever get willed anything, I hope
it's that gun.
--
Niki
Niki
--
Niki
John Deere
"Niki" <niki...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:TRS1h.20682$Cq3....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
> Oh yeah,
>
> http://nikibone.com/range4/
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think its dead.
J
Bulldog
ABC
"Rose Melinis" <rosem...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qgS1h.158614$QZ1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Rose Melinis
"ABC" <nos...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:Uk72h.24274$e66....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Rex B
>> wanted a .32 Seecamp for years. I just could not see spending the kind of
>> money you had to lay out at that time to get one, and the Co had a bad rep
>> for service. Then this came along. You had to get on a waiting list to get
>> one. When my turn came up and they called me I was all excited until they
>> handed it to me. My first impression was "I just paid $250.00 for a damn
>> toy". I went back to the range with it and wife. After a couple trips back
>> out front for more ammo, I came out and got back on the waiting list for
>> another. <G>. There is at this time no real competition to the P-32 or
>> P3AT. The NAA Arms or Seecamp are about the same size but when you handle
>> them the difference in the weight. They feel like a rock in your pocket.
>> Both of my P-32's, and my P3 have been 100% from day one. Like ALL auto's
>> it's not un common for one to need some break it when new. Like ALL mass
>> manufactured guns people do occasionally get a problem. KT has customer
>> service that all others should try to copy. You have a problem they fix it
>> fast and free. The little .380 does have what some consider to be stout
>> recoil. My wife elected to keep her .32 after trying my .380. Of course
>> neither is a "best" choice for defense, but they give you the ability to
>> always have a gun. You can drop one in a pocket and forget it. Other than
>> my NAA mini .22 it is the only pistol I have ever seen yet that was really
>> easy to drop in a pocket and forget about.
>> I am still a VERY big 1911 fan, but I now have 4 KT hand guns and 2 of
>> their pistol caliber rifles, and love them.
I have one each P32, P3AT, P11. Love 'em all. The little ones are easy
to drop in a pocket anytime. Keep it in the little zip pouch that comes
in the box, and it won't print. the pouch looks innocuous enough that it
doesn't yell "Gun!" if you have to stow it temporarily in a no-gun zone.
I keep FMJ in the .32, but I'm using Powerballs in the .380.
looked like a good middle ground between ball and HP. The .380 is a bit
snappy, but I had no problem running 50 rounds through it as fast as I
could reload. It got hot, but all rounds were on letter-size paper at 7
yds. My only regret is the almost-nonexistant sights. I may get a spare
slide and try dovetailing it for a rear sight.
The P3AT is now my primary carry gun. I think my wife has her eye
on the P32, and I don't worry about her being under-gunned with it. If
she ever has to use it, the kind of jerk who would take on a 5'4" woman
would probably be deterred by it. He would definitely know it was not
going to be a good day.
OTOH, any guy that comes after me (at 6'4" 200-lbs) will probably be
a little harder to "reprogram", but I think a .380 is up to the job in
almost all cases, if I do my part.
The P11 fits my hand better than almost any other handgun. Shoots to
point of aim, easy to control. JHPs for the 9MM.
Dad
in most of Europe and I see it on many of the cartridges sold here.
--
Dad
One more gun is just enough, maybe.
"Rose Melinis" <rosem...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ch82h.4202$Fi1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
SaPeIsMa
"Rex B" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3z82h.936$0r....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>My only regret is the almost-nonexistant sights. I may get a spare slide
>and try dovetailing it for a rear sight.
There is an aftermarket sight that can be glued on to the P3AT, P32
Brian Bunin
Details?
Rex B
I have seen the use of a fiber-optic shotgun front sight, which I may
try. I don't so much need sights as a point of reference. Through my
eyes that pistol just looks like a lump over my fist.
Rex B
Actually, I think the best solution for this is the Armalaser laser
sight. I've seen nothing but rave reviews. Fits the gun perfectly, has a
neat proximity switch to turn it on when your finger enters the trigger
guard. Also fits the P32, costs $139.
SaPeIsMa
I was thinking of a notch sight you glue to the back of the slide.
Rex B
> "Rex B" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:VVn2h.1248$0r....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Rex B wrote:
>>> SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>> "Rex B" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:3z82h.936$0r....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>>> My only regret is the almost-nonexistant sights. I may get a spare
>>>>> slide and try dovetailing it for a rear sight.
>>>> There is an aftermarket sight that can be glued on to the P3AT, P32
>>> I have seen the use of a fiber-optic shotgun front sight, which I may
>>> try. I don't so much need sights as a point of reference. Through my eyes
>>> that pistol just looks like a lump over my fist.
>> Actually, I think the best solution for this is the Armalaser laser sight.
>> I've seen nothing but rave reviews. Fits the gun perfectly, has a neat
>> proximity switch to turn it on when your finger enters the trigger guard.
>> Also fits the P32, costs $139.
>
> I was thinking of a notch sight you glue to the back of the slide.
I wouldn't trust any glue I know of, for a gun that lives in my pocket.
Besides, a conventional rear sight would probably snag.
SaPeIsMa
Found the reference
It's the P-Sight
http://www.psenhancements.com/
Rex B
Ah, Loctite Black Max.
I'll have to ask the rep for a sample
As for the sight, that looks easy enough to duplicate. May hafta try
that. But for $30.....
SaPeIsMa
Well the alternative is just to buy a 2nd generation P3AT
Then your problem is solved.
When I shoot my P32 or P3AT, I don't even bother aiming
I practise point shooting.
The idea is that if ever I'm reducing to using something that small, it will
be for VERY short distances, if not withing contact range
Rex B
Mine is a 2nd gen, and the sights are essentially non-existent for me.
> When I shoot my P32 or P3AT, I don't even bother aiming
> I practise point shooting.
> The idea is that if ever I'm reducing to using something that small, it will
> be for VERY short distances, if not withing contact range
I agree that is the purpose of the weapon - for self-defense, but there
are conceivable situations that could require a longer distance shot.
Low probability, sure, but it exists. I'd hate to have to make a
critical shot to save a life, and not be able to aim as well as
possible. At the same time I'd not want to add something that could
snag on a pocket.
NAA puts adjustable sights on their Black Widow mini revolvers. The
sight radius on those is about equal to that on my smaller KelTecs.
Perhaps I ought to take a look at the NAA sights to see if they are
adaptable.
SaPeIsMa
I have been doing a lot of point shooting practice in various forms
1) one-handed, right next to the hip with either hand.
2) one-handed, elbow to the side,forearm horizontal
3) one-handed, full arm extension, gun at shoulder/chin height
4) two-handed, elbows bent next to the ribs, hand at solar plexus height
5) two-handed, full arm extension, gun at shoulder/chin height.
I'm now getting less than 4" groups at under 30 feet, and less than 3"
groups at 21 feet or less.
I also have a little laser point that I can tape to my index fingeras close
to the hand as possible, and can trigger with my thumb.
I go around "shooting" things withit, at varying distances, in the woods
next door, while I walk the dog.
I'm sure that it helps improve the eye-hand coordination.
Niki
> When I shoot my P32 or P3AT, I don't even bother aiming
> I practise point shooting.
SaPe, I'm very new to this. I'm strictly into CCW issues. I love to shoot
though. What does point shooting mean?
> The idea is that if ever I'm reducing to using something that small, it will
> be for VERY short distances, if not withing contact range
Well yeah. The Keltec P32 is a very small gun. It's only about twice as big
as my cell phone.
What does a .32 do one's body? I don't want to find out.
--
Niki
Niki
> I have been doing a lot of point shooting practice in various forms
> 1) one-handed, right next to the hip with either hand.
> 2) one-handed, elbow to the side,forearm horizontal
> 3) one-handed, full arm extension, gun at shoulder/chin height
> 4) two-handed, elbows bent next to the ribs, hand at solar plexus height
> 5) two-handed, full arm extension, gun at shoulder/chin height.
> I'm now getting less than 4" groups at under 30 feet, and less than 3"
> groups at 21 feet or less.
>
> I also have a little laser point that I can tape to my index fingeras close
> to the hand as possible, and can trigger with my thumb.
> I go around "shooting" things withit, at varying distances, in the woods
> next door, while I walk the dog.
> I'm sure that it helps improve the eye-hand coordination.
Thanks for this SaPe. I live in the city. No can do that here as much as I'd
love to. I appreciate the info.
--
Niki
Rex B
Why not? Is your city 'pointless'?
Niki
> Niki wrote:
>> Thanks for this SaPe. I live in the city. No can do that here as much
>> as I'd love to. I appreciate the info.
> Why not? Is your city 'pointless'?
Pretty much with Mayor Malady in place.
--
Niki
John Blatchford
There is something of a cult around Kel-Tecs. If you google "Kel Tec Owners
Group" you should get in the right direction for lots of information.
John B.
"Alex Clayton" <alex...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zNudnQOU6ZlKAtvY...@nventure.com...
> "Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInL...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:16242-454...@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net...
>>I looked at one this afternoon. I was amazed at how light it was , yet
>> could hold 7 rounds. Holding the pistol gave me the impression that it
>> was rather flimsey and without much meat on it ; is the general
>> consensus that this Pistol is of high quality ? Is it reliable ? Any
>> problems associated with this Pistol ? Any info on it would be
>> appreciated. What other make/model would be considered its competitor ?
>> Thanks much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___________________
>> Heaven....don't myth it !
>> ___________________
>>
>
> I bought 2 of it's predecessor, the P-32 shortly after they hit. I had
> wanted a .32 Seecamp for years. I just could not see spending the kind of
> money you had to lay out at that time to get one, and the Co had a bad rep
> for service. Then this came along. You had to get on a waiting list to get
> one. When my turn came up and they called me I was all excited until they
> handed it to me. My first impression was "I just paid $250.00 for a damn
> toy". I went back to the range with it and wife. After a couple trips back
> out front for more ammo, I came out and got back on the waiting list for
> another. <G>. There is at this time no real competition to the P-32 or
> P3AT. The NAA Arms or Seecamp are about the same size but when you handle
> them the difference in the weight. They feel like a rock in your pocket.
> Both of my P-32's, and my P3 have been 100% from day one. Like ALL auto's
> it's not un common for one to need some break it when new. Like ALL mass
> manufactured guns people do occasionally get a problem. KT has customer
> service that all others should try to copy. You have a problem they fix it
> fast and free. The little .380 does have what some consider to be stout
> recoil. My wife elected to keep her .32 after trying my .380. Of course
> neither is a "best" choice for defense, but they give you the ability to
> always have a gun. You can drop one in a pocket and forget it. Other than
> my NAA mini .22 it is the only pistol I have ever seen yet that was really
> easy to drop in a pocket and forget about.
> I am still a VERY big 1911 fan, but I now have 4 KT hand guns and 2 of
> their pistol caliber rifles, and love them.
SaPeIsMa
news:m5WdnRw4sfmpfP7Y...@comcast.com...
> Good gun. Lousy sights. Short range only.
>
> There is something of a cult around Kel-Tecs. If you google "Kel Tec
> Owners Group" you should get in the right direction for lots of
> information.
>
The P32 and P3AT are NOT meant for long range shooting
They really are meant for up close, point-shooting
The only aimed shooting I do with mine is re-familiarisation before moving
on to point-shooting drills
The should only be carried as
a) a backup
b) last resort for lack of anything better to do the job
c) a need for discretion where size is critical
Hollow-points should be avoided unless you are using something like
PoweR'Balls, where you get the best of both worlds
Alex Clayton
>
> There is something of a cult around Kel-Tecs. If you google "Kel Tec
> Owners Group" you should get in the right direction for lots of
> information.
>
That's the idea of the P-32 and P3. My P-11 has a nice set of fixed sights
and they offer night sights. The whole idea of the P-32 and P3 was as a back
up/ and or pocket gun. This is why they have the sights they have. The
original was because of the demand for the Seecamp, and then the NAA
Guardian. Have you ever handled either one? You can get sights for the P-32
or P3 like the ones on the P-11 but few do. the reason is it makes them much
harder to use for what they are designed for.
A GREAT site for Kel-Tec info is:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ktog/
--
"Liberalism is a mental disorder."
Michael Savage
Dave in Lake Villa
REPLY: Well, i opted to buy a P3, and, i just love it. Its true the
sights are not real good, but, with practice i have become very
proficient with it. It is a super pocket pistol with a fairly good
punch using .380 cal. 7 shots is an incredible feature with this size
Pistol .
Dave in Lake Villa
PoweR'Balls, where you get the best of both worlds'
REPLY: I just bought some Corbon JHP .380 for the P3. Whats the
drawback to JHP for the P3 ?? Ive heard lots of people using it.
Alex Clayton
like all things it's a trade off. In a round like the .380 you often will
not get much penetration with a HP. You may get expansion but if the wound
is not deep enough it may not help. A lot has to do with how the person is
dressed. Some times heavy clothing will cause trouble. There are "tests" and
"demonstrations" done to prove both ways. You have to make up your own mind.
Dave in Lake Villa
will not get much penetration with a HP. You may get expansion but if
REPLY: Would it be better staying with FMJ ammo then for .380 cal ?
Ive heard that with FMJ you risk hurting/killing someone whos behind and
in line with the Bad Guy, as the bullet will often go entirely thru the
body. Theres a guy on the KelTec Forum that still swears using JHP over
FMJ as the JHP will enter at least 6 inches while mushrooming. He said
even with heavy clothing , the JHP will cloth up and essentially act
like an FMJ. Any thoughts on this ?
Alex Clayton
news:8728-4566...@storefull-3236.bay.webtv.net...
My choice for my mouse guns is FMJ. I used to stagger the mag with one ball
one HP. I finally just went to FMJ. The little .380 "could" go through a
person if it did not hit any heavy muscle or bone, but I am not real worried
about it. No matter what you choose you will find some people who will tell
you they are "experts" and that you made the wrong choice. Make sure that
your gun works with what you choose, and that you can hit what you aim at.
--
"Little girls like butterflies, need no excuse".
Lazarus Long
Gomer Simpson
"Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInL...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8728-4566...@storefull-3236.bay.webtv.net...
Your going to get a mixed bag of answers on this one. There has been
more than one instance where in claibers like the .380 there is a lack of
expansion of the bullet many times caused by the HP cavity filing up with
clothing material and not expanding. Then there are others that swear by the
HP design and use it. I dont know if there is a absolute answer to this.
Maybe do like some of us and load a HP in the chamber and the first
round in the mag a "ball" round and next a HP and so on. Alternate them.
Then you will have the best of both worlds. Always carry a spare mag.
full for the just in case scene. The P3AT is a great little pocket piece.
My tests with the cor bon 90gr HP is: I wouldnt want to be shot by one.
Avoid WW Silvertips. IMO they have very poor penetration in human
flesh. Nasty wound but poor penetration.
G
Rex B
than to the P3AT. Most with the .380 will carry an HP round. I prefer
the PowerBalls in mine.
The P32 arguably needs penetration first, expansion secondarily. for
this reason many stay with FMJ ball ammo for penetration and good
feeding. The most popular HP choice seems to be Silvertips, partly
because of the way the case groove is formed.
Dad
>I think most of the FMJ/HP discussion on Keltecs relates more to the P32 than
>to the P3AT. Most with the .380 will carry an HP round. I prefer the
>PowerBalls in mine.
> The P32 arguably needs penetration first, expansion secondarily. for this
> reason many stay with FMJ ball ammo for penetration and good feeding. The
> most popular HP choice seems to be Silvertips, partly because of the way the
> case groove is formed.
Seldom do I carry HP of any kind in a .380 and no longer carry a .32 ACP since
the P-3AT came on the market. Personal preference, and I don't worry about it
going through COM with enough power to hurt anything near by.
This is all un-scientific but and interesting bit of information on some of the
smaller handgun rounds.
http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10.html
Dave in Lake Villa
mine.'
REPLY: WHere do u get PowerBalls in .380 cal ?? How many tiny balls
per round ? Thanks.
Niki
Very well stated Dave. I have a P32. Got to see a P 380 Wed. It's a great gun
for the element of surprise.
--
Niki
Rex B
It's only one ball. A plastic ball about 1/4" diameter placed in the
hollow point. Feeds like a FMJ ball round
Dave in Lake Villa
hollow point. Feeds like a FMJ ball round'
REPLY: ANd, what is the benefit ? Thanks.
___________________________________________
I wish you a Merry CHRISTmas as the birth of Jesus (God in the Flesh) is
celebrated . This is the real reason for the season.
__________________________________________
Dave in Lake Villa
A mouse gun is marginal to begin with. I'd stick with the tried and true
FMJs.'
REPLY: The KelTec P3 'Mousegun' can almost be hidden in the palm of
your hand and shoots 7 rounds of .380 cal ammo ; .380 cal is the same
as 9mm except shorter in length with a bit less oomph. Add to that, JHP
ammo and you have a winning combo . FMJ rounds are good too, but, at 900
fps you can count on most of them going straight on thru thereby risking
injury/death to innocent bystanders. JHP on the other hand, seem to
stop around 6" of penetration.
Rex B
> '
> FMJs.'
>
> REPLY: The KelTec P3 'Mousegun' can almost be hidden in the palm of
> your hand and shoots 7 rounds of .380 cal ammo ; .380 cal is the same
> as 9mm except shorter in length with a bit less oomph. Add to that, JHP
> ammo and you have a winning combo . FMJ rounds are good too, but, at 900
> fps you can count on most of them going straight on thru thereby risking
> injury/death to innocent bystanders. JHP on the other hand, seem to
> stop around 6" of penetration.
Exactly. And the benefit of the PowerBall is that it feeds like a FMJ
but has better expansion. I expect it to be more reliable with probably
less than optimal expansion.
As for biting your hand, maybe it's just me but I don't find the recoil
to be objectionable on the P3AT. I've fired 50 rounds through it as fast
as I could, with no discomfort. This is without any grip covers or
magazine extensions, just the bare, stock gun.
But yes, I keep FMJ in my P32. I consider that my mouse gun. My regular
carry is the P3AT
Dave in Lake Villa
to be objectionable on the P3AT. I've fired 50 rounds through it as fast
as I could, with no discomfort. This is without any grip covers or
REPLY: I routinely go to the indoor pistol range with the P3 and shoot
at least 50 rounds continuously using .380 cal. FMJ Aguila Brand...and
suffer no ill effects. Until i used some heat shrink plastic on the
trigger, i was getting a bit of soreness on my trigger finger but
coating the trigger with heat shrink did the trick . As for accuracy
with the P3, from 20' taking slow careful aim with two hands, I have
groupings within 5" on a paper plate ; and from a draw position and
immediate fire using two hands, i get 8" groupings ....so, I dont
find the (admitted) less than desirable pistol sights a problem.
'My regular carry is the P3AT '
REPLY: Me too. The thing i like about the P3 is that it takes ALOT of
trigger pull to fire it , so, upon presenting the gun from a draw
position, I can immediately go to the trigger without going thru the
ritual of index finger alongside the pistol first like with my GLock .45
cal. IMHO, the GLock is way too trigger sensitive for my liking.
___________________________________________
I wish you a Merry CHRISTmas as The Creator who decided to intervene in
humanity is celebrated . This is the real reason for the season.
__________________________________________
Alex Clayton
> '
> A mouse gun is marginal to begin with. I'd stick with the tried and true
> FMJs.'
>
> REPLY: The KelTec P3 'Mousegun' can almost be hidden in the palm of
> your hand and shoots 7 rounds of .380 cal ammo ; .380 cal is the same
> as 9mm except shorter in length with a bit less oomph. Add to that, JHP
> ammo and you have a winning combo . FMJ rounds are good too, but, at 900
> fps you can count on most of them going straight on thru thereby risking
> injury/death to innocent bystanders. JHP on the other hand, seem to
> stop around 6" of penetration.
>
>
Well not quite. First the 9mm Luger is not even in the same class as the
.380. It's like trying to compare a .38 special and a .357. Just because
they share the same bore diameter does not mean they are "close".
Now as to the .380 being able to go through a human and keep going, it is
possible, but so is being struck by lightning. Someone has been feeding you
a lot of crap if they are telling you this. The 9mm Luger with 115 or 125 gr
FMJ can do some real penetration, but the little .380 does not. When they
were working on the early Body armor (bullet proof vest) the 9mm Luger with
a FMJ was the round that only the best could defeat. This is what I warned
you about when you first asked about this. There are always lot's of people
proclaiming themselves to be "experts" and it sounds like some of them have
been trying it out on you if they have you believing the .380 is going to
make holes through a human. If you are real concerned about it you can use
Galssers (Safety Slugs) but they are very expensive and you need to burn up
a few to make sure they work. The other down side to them is they have a
reputation for making nasty looking wounds that do not stop because they do
not go deep enough. This is from real shootings not some "expert". The next
time some expert tells you something like this ask them to show you the
cases where a round fired from a hand gun went through center mass on one
human and then wounded another who had the unfortunate luck to be standing
right behind the person shot. let me know when they find some cases, I would
like to read them.
Brian Bunin
Try shooting that NEXT 50.....
I can run 50 thru mine without trouble. But by the time I've run 100, my hand
is pretty raw.
Dave in Lake Villa
is possible, but so is being struck by lightning. Someone has been
REPLY: Being hit by lighting, they say, is a 1 in 300,000 chance. Ill
bet a .380 going thru a human is considerably less than that ! Of
course it would depend on what it hits upon skin penetration . , but a
pointed projectile , revolving , at approx. 300 yards 'per second' has
an extremely good chance at going thru a human body of approx. 12" deep
, especially the stomach area below the rib cage. Common sense tells me
this.
Alex Clayton
> 'Now as to the .380 being able to go through a human and keep going, it
> is possible, but so is being struck by lightning. Someone has been
> feeding you a lot of crap if they are telling you this.'
>
> REPLY: Being hit by lighting, they say, is a 1 in 300,000 chance. Ill
> bet a .380 going thru a human is considerably less than that ! Of
> course it would depend on what it hits upon skin penetration . , but a
> pointed projectile , revolving , at approx. 300 yards 'per second' has
> an extremely good chance at going thru a human body of approx. 12" deep
> , especially the stomach area below the rib cage. Common sense tells me
> this.
>
>
Dave that's the problem you are trying to use common sense. the laws of
physics do not change just because you "think" they should. You can
"believe" a .380 round goes through humans all you want, that does not
change the fact that they don't. As I said have someone show you some cases
where this happened. Since you "believe" it will happen, get some good HP's.
They will not really hurt, they just are very likely not to work as well.
Chances are better than very good you will never have to put it to the test
so you should never have to regret the choice.
Alex Clayton
news:1d5a91b8bef66d66...@deuxpi.ca...
> In article <t82dnYY3g_q6ivLY...@nventure.com>
> "Alex Clayton" <alex...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> snipped out
>
>> If you are real concerned about it you can use
>> Galssers (Safety Slugs) but they are very expensive and you need to burn
>> up
>> a few to make sure they work.
>
>
> If so:
> Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in
> the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days,
> and the cause of death would be peritonitis."
>
> http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html
>
Yep that would be them. They do make some VERY impressive shows in things
like Ballistic Gelatin, which is why most people buy them. I always figured
if I was going to be attacked by gelatin I might give them a try. <G>
--
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer.
Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does
not go nearly as well with pizza.
--Dave Barry
Dave in Lake Villa
physics do not change just because you "think" they should. You can
"believe" a .380 round goes through humans all you want, that does not
change the fact that they don't. As I said have someone show you some
cases where this happened. Since you "believe" it will happen, get some
REPLY: ALex, My rational IS based on the Law of Physics : .380 cal.
FMJ pointed projectile , rotating , moving at 300 yards per second
passing thru a Human Abdomen made of flesh, muscle, blood, lightweight
pliable organs, blood, muscle, and flesh again... is an invitation for
it to go straight on thru. I fired a .380 cal FMJ round from my KelTeck
P3 into my Moms 4x4" post that was holding her Birdfeeder (please dont
tell her...), and the bullet went 2 inches into solid wood from an 8'
distance. I dont think you should underestimate a P3 with .380 cal.
Alex Clayton
> 'Dave that's the problem you are trying to use common sense. the laws of
> physics do not change just because you "think" they should. You can
> "believe" a .380 round goes through humans all you want, that does not
> change the fact that they don't. As I said have someone show you some
> cases where this happened. Since you "believe" it will happen, get some
> good HP's.'
>
> REPLY: ALex, My rational IS based on the Law of Physics : .380 cal.
> FMJ pointed projectile , rotating , moving at 300 yards per second
> passing thru a Human Abdomen made of flesh, muscle, blood, lightweight
> pliable organs, blood, muscle, and flesh again... is an invitation for
> it to go straight on thru. I fired a .380 cal FMJ round from my KelTeck
> P3 into my Moms 4x4" post that was holding her Birdfeeder (please dont
> tell her...), and the bullet went 2 inches into solid wood from an 8'
> distance. I dont think you should underestimate a P3 with .380 cal.
Dave this is the same "logic" people use to tell you a bullet fired from a
large caliber hand gun will knock a man down. After all it hits with 300 to
over 500 foot pounds. People will even tell you they have seen it. Just one
problem, it will not happen and they never saw it unless it was in a movie.
Your "test" on a 4x4 post tells you what will happen if you are being
attacked by a 4x4 post and shoot it. Let me know when you find those cases
where a .380 round went through a human and got someone else. Until then
just keep "believing" your .380 will knock the bad guy right off his feet.
After all many people believe this based on the laws of physics. Looks great
on paper. <shrug>
--
Stupidity should be painful
Dad
"Alex Clayton" <alex...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3vWdndpxoNFYHu3Y...@nventure.com...
You have more patience than any man I've every known. Anything I've tried to
suggest to this man in the past has come back to haunt/insult/embarrass me at
some time later. I have yet figured out how to convey information to him that he
don't twist to fit his perceived "truths" that is then spread as something he
knows as fact.
I even doubt that he has a "Kelteck", if he does he could see how it is spelled
on the box it came in and 3 places on the piece.
More power to you and good luck.
--
Dad
One more gun is just enough, maybe.
Dave in Lake Villa
off his feet. After all many people believe this based on the laws of
REPLY: I never asserted the above, now did i Alex ? You spun what i
said originally in an attempt to make me look bad. That was disingenuous
of you to do so. I dont expect my P3 .380 cal. to 'knock someone off
their feet' with one shot , unless it hits the head or heart.
Fortunately, there are 6 more rounds it can fire. I WILL expect an FMJ
380 cal to go thru completely if it enters the stomach area., however.
Now...since it was YOU who made the absolute claim that it would NOT go
all the way thru on a stomach shot (under any circumstance) , i
challenge YOU to prove it wouldnt by giving some sort of objective , not
subjective (smartass retort) , proof. Are you able to do so Alex ? Im
very interested in this issue so please have at it.
Head Shot
> right off his feet. After all many people believe this based on the
> laws of physics. Looks great on paper. <shrug>'
I have a M-11-A1 that can dump the whole 50 round magazine in like a second
or two. I think that could hurt a bad guy. But I don't think James Bond
ever killed anyone with a PPK - I think shooting someone with that would
just piss them off.
--
___________________________________________________________
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises,
I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas
Jefferson
Dave in Lake Villa
haunt/insult/embarrass me at some time later.'
REPLY: Dad, as i have explained to you in the Corvette NG we are both a
part of, I greatly apologize to you and your kinfolk for any emotional
distress i have cause you regarding topics of Morality and Road Laws for
which you wish not to obey ; But, you dont seem to want to forgive me.
'I even doubt that he has a "Kelteck", if he does he could see how it is
spelled on the box it came in and 3 places on the piece.'
REPLY: I just obtained this P3 very recently, so, excuse me for the
mispelling of the Brand as im relatively new to Guns and have never
heard of Kel Tec prior. If you wish, i could give you the serial number
which is on the back of the Pistol , or, if you supply ANY mailing
address where you could recieve mail, ill send you a copy of my reciept.
Then you can stop being doubtful, paranoid, and generally unpleasant.
Again Dad, I have meant no offense to you or your kinfolk in past
discussions. Quit acting like the rearend of a Donkey now. Thanks
much. How the Corvette running ? :)
Alex Clayton
news:3tudnTGJfLCxDu3Y...@bright.net...
> Alex,
>
> You have more patience than any man I've every known. Anything I've tried
> to suggest to this man in the past has come back to haunt/insult/embarrass
> me at some time later. I have yet figured out how to convey information to
> him that he don't twist to fit his perceived "truths" that is then spread
> as something he knows as fact.
>
> I even doubt that he has a "Kelteck", if he does he could see how it is
> spelled on the box it came in and 3 places on the piece.
>
> More power to you and good luck.
>
> --
> Dad
>
> One more gun is just enough, maybe.
>
>
>
LOL, I finally gave up after that last one. I had figured it was worth a few
attempts for the people who will often lurk. I have often wondered about the
misspelling when it's done several times on a gun you are supposed to have
in hand. ? What the hell it still tends to be good reading for the people
passing by. <G>
Alex Clayton
news:7i2ch.2916$Z74...@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
>> 'Until then just keep "believing" your .380 will knock the bad guy
>> right off his feet. After all many people believe this based on the
>> laws of physics. Looks great on paper. <shrug>'
>
>
> I have a M-11-A1 that can dump the whole 50 round magazine in like a
> second or two. I think that could hurt a bad guy. But I don't think
> James Bond ever killed anyone with a PPK - I think shooting someone with
> that would just piss them off.
>
LOL, yes that is always a popular line, the "it will just piss him off". I
never seem to see any of these guys volunteer to be shot with one so they
can show us how it just "pisses" them off though. <G>
The .380 is FAR from being my "best choice" but the day I see it "piss
off" some guy I will figure it's time for silver bullets, wooden stakes, and
or garlic.
--
To err is human.....
But to blame someone else shows management potential.
Dave in Lake Villa
area, you will be disappointed more times then not. It is completely
unreasonable to expect a through-and-through wound to result from a .380
under normal circumstances.
--
You can run, but you'll only die tired.
ZombyWoof'
REPLY: Can you offer any emphirical evidence to back up your
subjective opinion ? Thanks.
Head Shot
> area,
What did Ruby kill Oswald with? That was a single gut-shot, right?
Bulldog
"Head Shot" <Head...@ThePinkMist.com> wrote in message
news:7i2ch.2916$Z74...@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> > 'Until then just keep "believing" your .380 will knock the bad guy
> > right off his feet. After all many people believe this based on the
> > laws of physics. Looks great on paper. <shrug>'
>
>
> I have a M-11-A1 that can dump the whole 50 round magazine in like a
second
> or two. I think that could hurt a bad guy. But I don't think James Bond
> ever killed anyone with a PPK - I think shooting someone with that would
> just piss them off.
Brian Bunin
ISTR, the pictures showed a revolver.
So it's unlikely it was a .380
Offbreed
> 380 cal to go thru completely if it enters the stomach area.
A gut cavity is basically water, with elastic fiber and a bit of "mud"
(food and shit) mixed in.
The heaviest bullet listed as safe is 110grains. That is not going to
have much momentum, and the more common wts will have less. I would not
be surprised if a .380 did not make it through most guts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_ACP
Still, the internet has lots of sites, and you should be able to find if
pass throughs are a problem with the .380, if it is.
Dave in Lake Villa
(food and shit) mixed in.'
REPLY: I had to laugh at your choice of words !!!
'Still, the internet has lots of sites, and you should be able to find
if pass throughs are a problem with the .380, if it is.'
REPLY: Please post it in this thread if you happen to find some
interesting emphirical evidence , as so far, all we've gotton are
peoples opinion and/or smartass rhetoric . Thanks.
Dave in Lake Villa
subjective opinion ? Thanks.'
Absolutely. Wouldn't have said it otherwise.
REPLY: Well then...where is it !???!!
Need something besides a Battleground analogy based on relative opinion.
Post some hard facts with numbers, actual test reports, etc.. Dont
need anymore S.A.R. (smartass rhetoric , as in the Corvette NG).
Head Shot
Kinda looked like a little snub nose like my Lady Smith. That's a 38
special. But the bullet diameter is about the same and I kinda think
Oswald only took one shot to the gut. IIRC, he died in the same surgery
room that Kennedy was in 3 days earlier. That whole thing was just weird
and doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe Oswald was a patsy, like he said he
was.
Head Shot
> Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
>> I WILL expect an FMJ
>> 380 cal to go thru completely if it enters the stomach area.
>
> A gut cavity is basically water, with elastic fiber and a bit of "mud"
> (food and shit) mixed in.
There are lots of organs in the area behind your belly button area (where I
think Oswald took the shot). There is your pancreas, kidneys, bladder,
stomach, etc. I'm thinking if a bullet rips through your digestive and
urinary systems you could be in deep trouble.
Head Shot
> interesting emphirical evidence , as so far, all we've gotton are
> peoples opinion and/or smartass rhetoric . Thanks.
You know what I think you need - some sort of document that details how all
different rounds fared as they went through ballistic geletin. I imagine
there has to be lots of studies done on that.
Cannon Fodder
Offbreed
> (food and shit) mixed in.'
>
> REPLY: I had to laugh at your choice of words !!!
>
> 'Still, the internet has lots of sites, and you should be able to find
> if pass throughs are a problem with the .380, if it is.'
>
> REPLY: Please post it in this thread if you happen to find some
> interesting emphirical evidence , as so far, all we've gotton are
> peoples opinion and/or smartass rhetoric . Thanks.
I'm not interested. You have expended enough effort in this argument to
have found enough cites to support your claims a dozen times over, if
you wanted to know the answers.
I'm killing the thread.
Offbreed
Sure. But, looking at it as "terminal ballistics", what's there?
Head Shot
Steve's Pages has a page on terminal ballistics. You should bookmark him
anyway; as he posts a PDF for every manual of almost every gun made (page
7b). Don't know where he gets them; but if one is missing you just ask and
he gets it. Anyhow - here is his ballistics page:
http://www.stevespages.com/page8f.htm
Dave in Lake Villa
would you prefer data from Wound Ballistics Review? You might want to
try reading Wound Profiles by Martin L. Fackler, MD, Wound Ballistics
Consultant, to add to your vast repository of expectations as well.'
REPLY: As a matter of fact...YES, I want you to post it if you have
access to it. Do i have to snailmail you a written request on parchment
paper , notarized, with a fancy Seal that was left on Funk and Wagners
porch since noon today ???
Dave in Lake Villa
him anyway; as he posts a PDF for every manual of almost every gun made
(page 7b). Don't know where he gets them; but if one is missing you just
ask and he gets it. Anyhow - here is his ballistics page:
REPLY: Thanks, good site. Makes for some interesting reading. Thanks
for posting it.
Dad
"ZombyWoof" <Zomby...@Zappa.net> wrote in message
news:0st3n2h9r9outf1v2...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:35:19 -0600, DaveInL...@webtv.net (Dave in
> Lake Villa) wrote something wonderfully witty:
>
>>'Can you offer any emphirical evidence to back up your
>>subjective opinion ? Thanks.'
>>
>>Absolutely. Wouldn't have said it otherwise.
>>
>>REPLY: Well then...where is it !???!!
>>Need something besides a Battleground analogy based on relative opinion.
>>Post some hard facts with numbers, actual test reports, etc.. Dont
>>need anymore S.A.R. (smartass rhetoric , as in the Corvette NG).
>>
> an internet search? Here is a hint use ".380 penetration" as a search
> term.
>
> Would information from the Firearms Tactical Institute suit you? Or
> would you prefer data from Wound Ballistics Review? You might want to
> try reading Wound Profiles by Martin L. Fackler, MD, Wound Ballistics
> Consultant, to add to your vast repository of expectations as well.
>
>
Dave,
It is by no means my place to point this out to you but the "Smartass answers"
that you are getting on the Corvette news group and this one are by no means the
only place you draw critical replies. Most all of them have acid replies to you
and your philosophy (the groups you frequent can be listed if you need a
reminder). That can have many reasons but two come to mind. 1) Everyone in the
news group world is wrong and will rot in hell. 2) You.
Dave in Lake Villa
REPLY: Then dont if its not your place to do so.
Alex Clayton
news:6uednS5XMsk8hu7Y...@bright.net...
ROTFLMAO!!
On that note I think I will go get a cold beer. Had a rough night last
night dealing with drunk idiots and I needed a good laugh. Now I can enjoy a
few myself.
Thanks Dad.
BTW, it should read "two more.....maybe". Never commit to just one if you
are married. {;-)
--
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin
Franklin
Dave in Lake Villa
'As I see it, the .380 might be a little short on penetration when JHP
ammunition is used and it expands. It seems that the average
penetration depth for most JHP's in this caliber is about 7 to 9 inches
in ballistic gelatin. For a frontal, face-to-face shot, this might
very well be sufficient, but for an angled shot or one passing through
an arm first, it very well might not. It seems that there's just not
enough bullet weight at .380 velocities to push the expanded slug deeply
enough. While there certainly are felons who'll "stop" simply because
they are shot, there are also those who will not unless they're
physically unable to continue.
In conventional JHP, .380 bullets weigh from 85 to 102 grains.
From a snub .38 Special, HP bullets weigh from about 95 to 158 grains.
These can be had with gilding metal jackets or pure lead in some cases.
Where the .380, depending upon barrel length, will throw 90-grain JHP's
at about 950 to 1100 ft/sec, the .38 will hit similar velocity levels
with 110 grain bullets and approximately 800 ft/sec + with the 158-gr +P
loads. These do offer more penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin when
they expand. Both are capable of through-and-through penetration in a
human torso if they do not.
'
(Take note of the very last sentence. The writer is saying that if the
JHP round does not expand .. making it essentially the same as an FMJ,
then it IS capable of going thru a human torso completely).