RZA vs. DRE
BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH
Wazzup? All right what I want to know is what people think about the
differences between the RZA and Dr. Dre go as far as producin...Now as
I look at it as far as sampling goes Dre is an excellent producer, but
can people really call him a better producer than the RZA?
1)How often does Dre change his beats to accomodate his artist? Not all
that often, and definitely not as much as the RZA does. Think back about
especially how similiar all the members of the Death Row crew (i.e. Dre
when he was there, Snoop, Kurupt, Daz, and even a lot on 2Pac's album) are
as far as their flow goes...Now think about how different each Wu album is...
the Original Wu is just tight, how many beats have people heard like "Da
Mystery of Chessboxin" or "Protect Ya Neck"? Thos were original. But then
also think about the RZA has to accomodate to each individuals stilo...Like
Meth's straight up dungeon shit, then you have ODB with his funk, the Raekwon
with his italiano/mafia gangsta style, and then Genius with that straight
end of the world shit ya know? The RZA has to represent on each album
to accomodate each individual member. Also, you have to give the RZA mad props
for his flow, that shit's original with that totally off beat shit.
Definitely, Dre has definitely grown as far as his production style because
shit like "Respect" by the DPG was definitely different from his original
g-funk shit that he dropped on The Chronic and Doggystyle, but how many
people actually think Dre is better than the RZA?
Flames should be directed to :
00kmro...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
Mike Rob
kari orr
In article <1996May8...@orion.bsuvc.bsu.edu>, 00kmro...@bsuvc.bsu.edu (BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH) says:
>
>
>
>Wazzup? All right what I want to know is what people think about the
>differences between the RZA and Dr. Dre go as far as producin...Now as
>I look at it as far as sampling goes Dre is an excellent producer, but
>can people really call him a better producer than the RZA?
now it's been a long times since dre has been on my turntable, or in
my walkman, but from a non coast loving (east or west) DRE's production
is on beat, almost always. three words, old dirty bastard. this
highlighted rza's already off beat sloppy production. I'm not commenting
on the whether or not i prefer dre's production over rza's which i don't
but rza is off beat, not on purpose, a lot. IT might be apart of his style
but it's annoying.
As far as versatility, i'm saying dre and rza are equal. Where dre
consistenly drops his signature always being duplicated style, rza
now has people doing the same thing. when every producer out there
has a RZA esqu sounding track, the original(rza) starts to lose glamour.
he has a signature, there is such thing as a classic wu tang beat.
if you are a g-funk fan, i'm sure you can see the differences among the
three albums, just like wu fans can hear the differences the three albums.
but take just the drum beats from each of the producers, and you'll
see that rza is not as creative as you would think.
if you go album to album, death row and wu tang, there are definite
differences in the production between the albums. for one, dre has
not been producing as many tracks lately, but dre has been putting together
dope tracks when rza was still saying ooh we love you rakeem.
in essence it's an unfair comparison. take straight outta compton
and everything dre produced before the chronic, and then take the death
row era. RZA, as dope as he is, just hasn't been out there long enough.
both of them are going to have dry spells, i've havent seen
universal acceptance of the rza's latest gems(who da champion, winter warz
the gza album), neither with dre.
but on the real, there are nicer producers out there, who aren't as
popular. who else is out there, im sure you folks now a few. like
marc spark for instance.
kari orr
house of phat beats
Paul J Bordallo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.rap: 10-May-96 Re: RZA vs. DRE by kari
o...@weiss.che.utexa
> but rza is off beat, not on purpose, a lot. IT might be apart of his style
> but it's annoying.
RZA does do it on purpose.
Paul J Bordallo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.rap: 10-May-96 Re: RZA vs. DRE by kari
o...@weiss.che.utexa
> and everything dre produced before the chronic, and then take the death
> row era. RZA, as dope as he is, just hasn't been out there long enough.
>
Dre has been producing since way before straight outta compton. Anybody
remember Ready For The World?? This was way back when Yella & Dre and
the rest were dressed in classy suits on the cover of their records and
not as gangstas. Hehe. Dre's a smart producer alright, he knows how to
sell records.
Peace.
LyricalP
Wow....This wouldn't even be close.....I mean, Dre has the track record
but RZA's beats would demolish him. Think about it; Matter a fact, you
don't even have to....
RZA knockout, 1:21 into the first round.....Plus, Dre can't rhyme for shit
and has lyricists who are terrible write his rhymes for him. The RZA rips
shit ever time he touches the M-I-C..This is Exlibris and I'm out....
oleg issers
In article <4n3scv$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> LyricalP wrote:
>Date: 12 May 1996 01:19:27 -0400
>From: lyri...@aol.com (LyricalP)
>Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>Newsgroups: alt.rap
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>
>Wow....This wouldn't even be close.....I mean, Dre has the track
record
>but RZA's beats would demolish him. Think about it; Matter a
fact, you
>don't even have to....
>RZA knockout, 1:21 into the first round.....
No...Dre is the better musician of two, plus he knows how to make
money. RZA hasnt sold shit with any of the Wu tapes compared to
Dre, and thats what makes a good producer.
>Plus, Dre can't rhyme for shit
>and has lyricists who are terrible write his rhymes for him. The
RZA rips
>shit ever time he touches the M-I-C..This is Exlibris and I'm
out....
What does rhyming have to do with producing?
Loklass
In article <4n4qon$e...@news-e2d.gnn.com>, oleg issers <eaz...@gnn.com>
writes:
>No...Dre is the better musician of two, plus he knows how to make
>money. RZA hasnt sold shit with any of the Wu tapes compared to
>Dre, and thats what makes a good producer.
I agree with you that Dre is the better musician, but just because he
knows how to make money doesn't make him a better producer. You're saying
that because Dre has sold the most records that makes him a good producer?
So, since Tag Team produced their multi-platinum single, "Whoomp! (There
It Is)", that must make them some of the best producers. Uh huh.
If you want to break it down, Dre is master of the keyboard. He comes with
ingenuity on his originally composed tracks. However, I don't really give
him any credit for the cuts he's done where it's just him replaying a
classic funk song. RZA is master of the samples. He can take a sample of
the most obscure sounds and play his own notes with them and the shit will
come out nice. His production methods are very mysterious. But, with both
Dre and RZA, they are weak with their drums. Dre uses commonly used drum
instruments and his patterns are simple. RZA uses different drum sounds,
but his patterns are very simple and sometimes off-beat.
It all lies in the "ear" of the beholder, I suppose. Which sound do you
prefer? That's the question. If you're into the basement beats, RZA is the
better producer. If you're into the funk, Dre is the better producer.
>What does rhyming have to do with producing?
Overall talent. You can narrow it down to just production, but being able
to rhyme NICE and produce well at the same time is a great talent. How
many producers can bring it like Prince Rakeem? I'm not talking about the
rappers turned producers like Q-Tip, Mobb Deep, etc. I'm talking about
those who either remain behind the boards most of the time and then drop
it lovely or those who have been a producer/MC since they came out.
Peace
Loklass
El Papichulo Cubano
ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Maybe Dre might be the best MUSICIAN, but RZA's beats have a certain
atmosphere that I've never heard in a west coast rap song. West coast
sounds all the same to me, both the beats and the lyrics, well East Coast
production AND lyrics vary hugely. I can't say that I've heard a lot of
West Coast rap, but I'm commenting on what I HAVE heard.
***Marbles***
Dre was a part of The World Class Wrecking Crew, not Ready For
the World. He did "Turn Out the Lights". RFTW did "Oh Sheila" & "Love
You Down".
Peace,
_______________________________________________________________________________
***Trey*** ***John F. Harris, III*** ***Marbles***
E-MAIL- jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>>> Don't Be Down With Anybody, Let'Em All Be Down With You - HEAVY D. <<<
Paul J Bordallo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.rap: 13-May-96 *** DRE'S R&B CAREER *** by
***Marbles***@oak.cats.o
> the World. He did "Turn Out the Lights". RFTW did "Oh Sheila" & "Love
> You Down".
>
Oops, my mistake. I knew it had "World" in it. I still have the record
with the "Dre's Beat" on the b-side. Ahhh, the dayz of breakdancing...
> Peace,
El Surround
BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH wrote:
>
> Wazzup? All right what I want to know is what people think about the
> differences between the RZA and Dr. Dre go as far as producin...Now as
> I look at it as far as sampling goes Dre is an excellent producer, but
> can people really call him a better producer than the RZA?
>
> that often, and definitely not as much as the RZA does. Think back about
> especially how similiar all the members of the Death Row crew (i.e. Dre
> when he was there, Snoop, Kurupt, Daz, and even a lot on 2Pac's album) are
> as far as their flow goes...Now think about how different each Wu album is...
> the Original Wu is just tight, how many beats have people heard like "Da
> Mystery of Chessboxin" or "Protect Ya Neck"? Thos were original. But then
> also think about the RZA has to accomodate to each individuals stilo...Like
> Meth's straight up dungeon shit, then you have ODB with his funk, the Raekwon
> with his italiano/mafia gangsta style, and then Genius with that straight
> end of the world shit ya know? The RZA has to represent on each album
> to accomodate each individual member. Also, you have to give the RZA mad props
> for his flow, that shit's original with that totally off beat shit.
>
> Definitely, Dre has definitely grown as far as his production style because
> shit like "Respect" by the DPG was definitely different from his original
> g-funk shit that he dropped on The Chronic and Doggystyle, but how many
> people actually think Dre is better than the RZA?
>
> Flames should be directed to :
> 00kmro...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
> Mike Rob
Well, it's like askin' who is a better bballer- John Stockton or Patrick
Ewing. They don't approach producin' the same way, there beats share
nuthin' in common, and that's why the base for the comparison is
lacking.
Peace
--
****************************************************************************
"Livin' phat yet real Thin"
El Surround aka Sinista El Surround aka "Tha Contemplator":
Check out monthly column "Contemplatin'" at "Headz Up"...
Peep the BOMB webzine "The Chamberz"
http://www.dungeon.com/~alex/main.html
Subscribe to FREE newsletter "Areas"- beans...@pobox.com
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oleg issers
In article <4n6dnr$i...@news.sas.ab.ca> iceman wrote:
>Date: 13 May 1996 04:27:39 GMT
>From: ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ()
>Newsgroups: alt.rap
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>
It all depends on what music you like more: To me, all East Coast
rap sounds the same. Just listen to Dre's keyboards on Dre day, for
example. The synthesizer noise alsao adds to the overall coolness
of West Coast rap.
John Book
RZA vs DRE on production huh? Let's take it there:
Dr. Dre has a magnificent track record, from the early days up to the
Death Row stuff. As a musician, I think he did his best work from 1989-
1991, from 'STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON' to 'NO ONE CAN DO IT BETTER' to
Michel'le's debut (and only, so far) LP. His best project, in my opinion,
has been "THE CHRONIC". Since then, he has become a lazy producer.
However, now out of the Death Row camp, it'll be interesting to see what
path he takes.
The RZA. Even on his "Ooh, I Love You Rakeem" 12" single, he was
beginning to show his style. While Dr. Dre incorporates more "real"
instrumentation, RZA is the manipulator of the sample. Slowed down,
speeded up, altered, backwards, dark, light, happy, empty...RZA's style
is identifyable but never repetitive. RZA plays the keyboards and piano,
so it's not like he isn't a musician. But, RZA uses them as mere
ingredients of the mix, not as a whole. In that case, it would be
interesting to see how RZA would sound if he created a track with no
samples, just his music.
***************
My personal preferences would move towards The RZA, although I do like
both as producers. As rappers, that's another topic so I'm not even
going to get into that.
The art of the producer is to bring the listener into their mind for a
moment, so you can hear what they may be hearing, to see what they may be
seeing. "THE CHRONIC" and "ENTER THE WU-TANG (36 CHAMBERS)" are two of
the best albums of the 90's, straight up, and anyone who says otherwise
is a fool. Both Dre and RZA have what it takes to make the listener
happy and sad with a few notes.
JOHN BOOK
all roads lead to wu!
pullin' no tricks in '96
i got shtyles, kid
arch deluxe has 614 calories
yonkunar
>It all depends on what music you like more: To me, all East Coast
>rap sounds the same. Just listen to Dre's keyboards on Dre day, for
>example. The synthesizer noise alsao adds to the overall coolness
>of West Coast rap.
That`s true. The keyboard in "California Love" is also cool, but I think RZA
is the best anyway. He`s got a fresher and more original style.
<tsb>D-StruQt
<sb>IRC: D-StruQt *** E-Mail: yonk...@login.eunet.no
--
There are two kinds of pedestrians... The quick and the dead
[Lord Thomas Robert Dewar (1864-1930)]
--
kt...@silver.sdsmt.edu
In article <4nbts6$2b...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> YCA...@prodigy.com (John Book) writes:
>From: YCA...@prodigy.com (John Book)
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
> ***************
About the role of producers... on some tracks the music is done by one kid and
the production by another, that shit confuses me (I figured it's the man who
puts it all together: sample clearence, ideologies, etc.)?
Wesley Sayas
In article <4n6dnr$i...@news.sas.ab.ca>, ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () says:
>
>Maybe Dre might be the best MUSICIAN, but RZA's beats have a certain
>atmosphere that I've never heard in a west coast rap song. West coast
>sounds all the same to me, both the beats and the lyrics, well East Coast
>production AND lyrics vary hugely. I can't say that I've heard a lot of
>West Coast rap, but I'm commenting on what I HAVE heard.
>OK I'm sorry but obviously you haven't heard anything then.
The East Coast doesn't have any good beats. They practically sing
instead of rap. The West Coast on the other hand has Beats fo'
tha car, fo'tha house and fo' tha beach parties. As for lyrics the
west would beat any rapper on the planet. The East has other people
write for them. East Coast can't even make a video with out their
producer in it. WEST COAST FOREVER!!!!
E. Peterson
>> 1)How often does Dre change his beats to accomodate his artist? Not all
>> that often, and definitely not as much as the RZA does. Think back about
Thats the opposite. Dre's beats always accomodate his artists, thats why
everything Dre has produced since 1987 has gone platinum.
>Well, it's like askin' who is a better bballer- John Stockton or Patrick
>Ewing. They don't approach producin' the same way, there beats share
>nuthin' in common, and that's why the base for the comparison is
>lacking.
I agree with this the most. I favor west coast beats more than east
though and the reason is because when you sample, you are very limited in
what you can do compared to live instruments. Basically, speeding up,
slowing down, and reversing samples is it for rap production. I used to
be into people who sampled like the Bomb Squad, older Sir Jinx, etc etc,
but I havent heard a beat with samples that I couldnt make myself. I
think it takes more or an artistic and creative mind to pick up
instruments and play the notes yourself than it does to loop someone elses
shit, or slow it down, or whatever..
Most producers who sample couldnt even play what they sample. For myself,
I respect music, and so I feel that the best producers out there are the
ones who can go from the ground up. Start with nothing and finish with
something phat.
E. Peterson
>About the role of producers... on some tracks the music is done by one kid and
>the production by another, that shit confuses me (I figured it's the man who
>puts it all together: sample clearence, ideologies, etc.)?
The producer is the person who gets the music together. Most rap
producers do all the work themselves whether its sampling, playing keys,
guitar, or whatever. Sometimes though a producer will get someone to do
part of the production for them like have someone else play guitars or
keys, or bass.
Most of the time producers are musicians, but musicians arnt necessarily
producers.
62nd Assassin
In article <4nd7k2$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>, wsa...@tvh.wsd1.winnipeg.mb.ca (Wesley Sayas) wrote:
>East Coast can't even make a video with out their
>producer in it.
Even if that was true....
The video to Shadowboxin' / 4th Chamber was far better than any west coast
video.
E. Peterson
>>Most producers who sample couldnt even play what they sample. For myself,
>>I respect music, and so I feel that the best producers out there are the
>>ones who can go from the ground up. Start with nothing and finish with
>>something phat.
>
>replay old melodies? i can only think of one. organized noize doesn't
>steal anything. They might sample sounds, but not breaks in songs.
>so basically the organized people are producing completely original music.
>Does it make them the best? I don't know, being in texas i'm biased,
>but i think i could say that camp is one of the top ten.
There is a lot of production camps that do original stuff (even though
some of them do remake old cuts sometimes as well). Mike Mosley, Khayree,
Studio Ton, Gumbo Funk, Cold 187, Dre, Paris, Mike Wingo, Kevin Gardner,
Funk Daddy, etc etc etc... That list can go on forever. All these cats
have done some nice original beats, but at the same time, Dre is about the
only who has his own proven formula. Its not hard to make a phat beat,
but it is to make a classic.
kari orr
In article <4ndngd$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, e...@u.washington.edu (E. Peterson) says:
>I agree with this the most. I favor west coast beats more than east
>though and the reason is because when you sample, you are very limited in
>what you can do compared to live instruments. Basically, speeding up,
>slowing down, and reversing samples is it for rap production. I used to
>be into people who sampled like the Bomb Squad, older Sir Jinx, etc etc,
>but I havent heard a beat with samples that I couldnt make myself. I
>think it takes more or an artistic and creative mind to pick up
>instruments and play the notes yourself than it does to loop someone elses
>shit, or slow it down, or whatever..
well i can't really strip sampling down to just slowing, speeding it,
and reversing it. a couple of producers out there do a little more than
just chop. take premier's the ? remains. it's the same break for
kwame's the rhythm, but primo chopped it up, and replayed the notes in
a different order. When pete rock did the world is yours, it's another
example of the cut and rearrange.
cipher of the beatfarm played me both the breaks and sampled both of them
exactly like primo and pete rock. Not to take anything away from him,
but if all you need is the record and a sampler, most of those beats
are easy to reproduce.
it's interesting that you bring up using live instruments in production
as opposed to sampling. from a historical point of view, sampling goes
back to the backspinning of records by kool herc and afrika bambataa.
if you're basically finding a break in a record and repeating it at
different speeds, then that is production of a rap track.
using the turntable was the solution to not having instruments.
it wasn't always like that, there were certainly groups that people
consider old school now that used live bands to make records, but
the original force in the music was lack of instruments, and only
two turntables and a mic. If you ever lost your peter piper 12" ,
you could make the instrumental on the spot with two bob james records.
>Most producers who sample couldnt even play what they sample. For myself,
>I respect music, and so I feel that the best producers out there are the
>ones who can go from the ground up. Start with nothing and finish with
>something phat.
true indeed. But the question is how many producers don't sample, or
replay old melodies? i can only think of one. organized noize doesn't
steal anything. They might sample sounds, but not breaks in songs.
so basically the organized people are producing completely original music.
Does it make them the best? I don't know, being in texas i'm biased,
but i think i could say that camp is one of the top ten.
k. orr
house of phat beats
Cerkit
On 15 May 1996 22:57:17 GMT, E. Peterson wrote:
I agree with this the most. I favor west coast beats more than east
though and the reason is because when you sample, you are very limited
in
what you can do compared to live instruments. Basically, speeding up,
slowing down, and reversing samples is it for rap production.
That applies to some producers. But then, take somebody like DJ Premier,
who takes samples, cuts em, splits em, rearranges them, to where they have
very little resemblance to the original piece. *And* he can do all that
and make it sound tight. To me, that takes just as much talent -- if not
sometimes more -- than using an original track.
==================
Cerkit [Breaker]
dnb...@ucdavis.edu
E. Peterson
> I agree with this the most. I favor west coast beats more than east
> though and the reason is because when you sample, you are very limited
> in
> what you can do compared to live instruments. Basically, speeding up,
> slowing down, and reversing samples is it for rap production.
>
>That applies to some producers. But then, take somebody like DJ Premier,
>who takes samples, cuts em, splits em, rearranges them, to where they have
>very little resemblance to the original piece. *And* he can do all that
>and make it sound tight. To me, that takes just as much talent -- if not
>sometimes more -- than using an original track.
The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
sampler? People like Premier may come up with phat beats but they always
rely on someone elses music first.
I like the producers who start with nothing. Make their own sounds, do
their own music, and its phat. Its all preference. Ive just been doin it
for so long now, I see things totally different than probably 99% of
everyone else here. Ive done things the way Premier does it. Ive done
things the way Dre does it, or Mike Mosley does it, or anyone does it.
Thats just the preference my experience has created for me.
I will always respect someone who is getting stuff done though. Ive met a
million loud mouth niggas in my day who swore they would get famous off
doin records and after all this time, they still dont have one song
written or one beat made.
Jesse A McDonald
: >It all depends on what music you like more: To me, all East Coast
: >rap sounds the same. Just listen to Dre's keyboards on Dre day, for
: >example. The synthesizer noise alsao adds to the overall coolness
: >of West Coast rap.
: That`s true. The keyboard in "California Love" is also cool, but I think RZA
: is the best anyway. He`s got a fresher and more original style.
The tune in California love - the one with the Mad Max video,
anyway - is a sample, not a keyboard line.
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesse McDonald http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ad309/Profile.html
AKA Phatboy, AKA The PhZA, AKA Phats ad...@cfn.cs.dal.ca
AKA The Dead Poet, AKA Tha Pope, Speaking to the 85%
AKA Resurrection Brother #1 Quod Erat Demonstrandum
kt...@silver.sdsmt.edu
In article <4nj4u3$7...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> e...@u.washington.edu (E. Peterson) writes:
>From: e...@u.washington.edu (E. Peterson)
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
If they want to sell of their DS-8, let me know (jdw...@silver.sdsmt.edu)
-T'Da
Steven Dominguez
You gotta be smoking crack if you think that faggot Dr. Dre is better
than Rza.
--
Steven Dominguez supe...@arc.unm.edu
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~superfly
:========================================:
| Broken promises don't upset me. |
| I just think, why did they believe me? |
:========================================:
El CID
There both excellent at what they do. They are both geniuses. Both know
how to move the crowd and produce the beat that the people want.
Tom Young
In article <4nj4u3$7...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, e...@u.washington.edu (E.
Peterson) wrote:
>> I agree with this the most. I favor west coast beats more than east
>> though and the reason is because when you sample, you are very limited
>> in
>> what you can do compared to live instruments. Basically, speeding up,
>> slowing down, and reversing samples is it for rap production.
>>
>>That applies to some producers. But then, take somebody like DJ Premier,
>>who takes samples, cuts em, splits em, rearranges them, to where they have
>>very little resemblance to the original piece. *And* he can do all that
>>and make it sound tight. To me, that takes just as much talent -- if not
>>sometimes more -- than using an original track.
>
>The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
>sampler? People like Premier may come up with phat beats but they always
>rely on someone elses music first.
>
>I like the producers who start with nothing. Make their own sounds, do
>their own music, and its phat. Its all preference. Ive just been doin it
>for so long now, I see things totally different than probably 99% of
>everyone else here. Ive done things the way Premier does it. Ive done
>things the way Dre does it, or Mike Mosley does it, or anyone does it.
>Thats just the preference my experience has created for me.
As a musician (instrumentalist) I may be one of the only
people who will say that I think that producers who
sample are more talented than producers who get a band
together and have them lay down a cut.
Formally, most hip hop tunes from an instrumental
perspective are simple (although the performance of it is
not easy). I play bass, and with a drum machine (or easier
still, a set of drums and a drummer to follow my
commands) I could write enough ass kickin' grooves for an
entire hip-hop album in one day. (being able to play
them well enough is a different story, and depends on the
drummer, as well as me, but I could hack it if I wrote it).
Just add a Fender Rhodes, and you've got the backing tracks
for a jazzyfat album (a la Roots, Digable, etc).
It's a lot more work to find choice samples (especially nowadays,
with everything under the sun being sampled) and then rearranging
them into an indistinguishable new song.
That being said, I also think that the use of non-musical samples,
is more well suited to hip-hop at times than instruments... that is
I think that instruments are more limiting that samples... you can't make
a bass sound like a car wreck, or a cat screaming, or a steam whistle, which
you might want for a hip hop song.
I play in a hip hop band, and I often grow frustrated by the fact that we
have no
DJ, which would fit our sound so well. (any DJs in the Boston area?)
Unfortunately, I am not the svengali of the group =), so it is too
difficult to dictate
what I want everyone to do. (no one listens) =)
Peace
Tommy G
E. Peterson
>>The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
>>sampler? People like Premier may come up with phat beats but they always
>>rely on someone elses music first.
>>
>>I like the producers who start with nothing. Make their own sounds, do
>>their own music, and its phat. Its all preference. Ive just been doin it
>>for so long now, I see things totally different than probably 99% of
>>everyone else here. Ive done things the way Premier does it. Ive done
>>things the way Dre does it, or Mike Mosley does it, or anyone does it.
>>Thats just the preference my experience has created for me.
>
>As a musician (instrumentalist) I may be one of the only
>people who will say that I think that producers who
>sample are more talented than producers who get a band
>together and have them lay down a cut.
I wasnt referring to producers like Warren G who hire studio musicians to
come in and lay tracks down. All it takes to make a Warren G album is
some money. Im talking about people like Studio Ton, Mike Mosley, Bosko,
Gumbo Funk, and all the people who program their own sounds.
>Formally, most hip hop tunes from an instrumental
>perspective are simple (although the performance of it is
>not easy). I play bass, and with a drum machine (or easier
> still, a set of drums and a drummer to follow my
>commands) I could write enough ass kickin' grooves for an
>entire hip-hop album in one day. (being able to play
>them well enough is a different story, and depends on the
>drummer, as well as me, but I could hack it if I wrote it).
>Just add a Fender Rhodes, and you've got the backing tracks
>for a jazzyfat album (a la Roots, Digable, etc).
Rap and hip-hop definately has a simple format. Ill never be generikc
like Roots and Digable are. There is nothing special about their music.
Too many people think all you need is a breakbeat and a sample to make a
beat and as far as Im concerned, the music has grown past that.
>It's a lot more work to find choice samples (especially nowadays,
>with everything under the sun being sampled) and then rearranging
>them into an indistinguishable new song.
>
>That being said, I also think that the use of non-musical samples,
>is more well suited to hip-hop at times than instruments... that is
>I think that instruments are more limiting that samples... you can't make
>a bass sound like a car wreck, or a cat screaming, or a steam whistle, which
>you might want for a hip hop song.
I cant agree because Ive heard all kinds of sounds come out of all kinds
of instruments. I layer sounds to get what I want. The two things I use
most in my studio is my ASR-10 and my JD-800. Programming sounds is the
big difference. I am not talking about having a band play your music at
all.
-Kev-
On Thu, 16 May 1996, Cerkit wrote:
> On 15 May 1996 22:57:17 GMT, E. Peterson wrote:
>
> I agree with this the most. I favor west coast beats more than east
> though and the reason is because when you sample, you are very limited
> in
> what you can do compared to live instruments. Basically, speeding up,
> slowing down, and reversing samples is it for rap production.
>
> That applies to some producers. But then, take somebody like DJ Premier,
> who takes samples, cuts em, splits em, rearranges them, to where they have
> very little resemblance to the original piece. *And* he can do all that
> and make it sound tight. To me, that takes just as much talent -- if not
> sometimes more -- than using an original track.
Gotta agree with Cerkit on that. Any producer restricting himself to
slowing, speeding, and reversing samples is either unimaginative,
unaware, or just lazy. When you consider that there is an unfathomable
resource of sample material out there, and a multitude of ways you can
process and change those samples (increasing as technology and the access
to technology grows), it provides at least as much freedom of creativity
as live instruments do; perhaps more, as most instruments are limited in
the range of sounds they can produce.
Don't misunderstand, I want to see _more_ live instrumentation, and less
long bitten samples that just recycle someone's else's creativity. But I
do think that composing with samples can be as creative and valid as
composing with live instruments -- sometimes even more so.
-Kev-
Jesse A McDonald
I like about as many Dre cuts as there are RZA cuts I don't
like. Just my opinion... both have their individual talents, and both
tend to sacrifice those talents for quick money. Like, for example, The
Riddler. NO effort went into that, production-wise. If RZA was really
working that, he would have sampled the Neil Hefti original and
manipulated it to fit with the vocals!
kt...@silver.sdsmt.edu
In article <4nq5la$2...@apollo.isisnet.com> ad...@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Jesse A McDonald) writes:
>From: ad...@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Jesse A McDonald)
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
If yall muthafuckas can get me some info on a cheap (working) Gemini DS-8...
I can show you some shit...
-T'Da
"I sing, I chat, I do all of that..."
Cerkit
On 18 May 1996 00:17:07 GMT, E. Peterson wrote:
The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
sampler?
What would Mosley be without his synthesizer?
DJ's like Premier use a sampler and a turntable as instruments, not as
Xerox machines.
==================
Cerkit [Breaker]
dnb...@ucdavis.edu
SUDDEN DEATH
Check out the back of Rap Pages. They have a DJ starter kit with 2 turntables
and a mixer for like $170, or something like that. I know you get what you
pay for so don't expect anything too hot. Still, it probably wouln't be a bad
starting point.
>"I sing, I chat, I do all of that..."
->Later.....Spice ____ _____ _____ _____ __ __
SUDDEN | \| _ |/ _ \|_ _| | | |
0 0 @ * | |\ |_ | | |_| |
< ^ | | | _| |_| _ |
---- ~~~~ | |/ |_ _ | | |
before after |___/|____|__| |__| |_| |__| |__|
E. Peterson
> The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
>
> sampler?
>
>What would Mosley be without his synthesizer?
I have an answer to that. Mike Mosley has the ability to make a beat from
scratch. Start with nothing. DJ Premier can only make a beat after
lifting a sounds that someone else created first.
>DJ's like Premier use a sampler and a turntable as instruments, not as
>Xerox machines.
Thats funny though, because they arnt instruments.
Elliott James Lawrence
: >It all depends on what music you like more: To me, all East Coast
: >rap sounds the same. Just listen to Dre's keyboards on Dre day, for
: >example. The synthesizer noise alsao adds to the overall coolness
: >of West Coast rap.
I really couldn't disagree more. Overall coolness is is an awfully
vague phrase. furthermore, one of the things you hear east coast fans
say most often is that the reason they don't enjoy west coast because
all the beats have the same elements(a heavy bassline, high pitched
keyboard riff, etc.), and all west coast rappers talk about the same
thing( bustin caps' in niggas, fuckin' bitches, rollin' thru the hood on
gold daytons, etc.). Because of this, i'm very curious. what is it
that makes all east coast rap sound the same?
elliott
"and if ya don't know, now ya know!"
Graham Gaston
Steven Dominguez (supe...@arc.unm.edu) wrote:
: You gotta be smoking crack if you think that faggot Dr. Dre is better
: than Rza.
Thank you !!!
Jesse A McDonald
: > The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
: > sampler?
: >What would Mosley be without his synthesizer?
: I have an answer to that. Mike Mosley has the ability to make a beat from
: scratch. Start with nothing. DJ Premier can only make a beat after
: lifting a sounds that someone else created first.
Sampling and looping takes physical SKILL and precision (sometimes).
: >DJ's like Premier use a sampler and a turntable as instruments, not as
: >Xerox machines.
: Thats funny though, because they arnt instruments.
Neither is a washboard, but where would the blues be without them?
Andrew Ryan Chang
E. Peterson <e...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>DJ's like Premier use a sampler and a turntable as instruments, not as
>>Xerox machines.
>
>Thats funny though, because they arnt instruments.
Oh, you gone done it now.
Seriously, though, a set of turntables and a mixer is a place for
creativity- for making sounds that definitely weren't on the origianl
vinyl. When you listen to those top, contest-winning DJs, it is
_amazing_.
I would really say that the ability to work with a set of
turntables like Premier can is a tremendous skill and I don't understand
where your disrespect is coming from.
--
> What is this trolled thing. [answered by <Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk>]
what happens is that someone acts like an arsehole, gets treated like an
arsehole and then says ha ha I was only pretending to be an arsehole.
which is pretty much defines them as an arsehole in the firstplace.
tha iLL oNE --rza all day everyday
IT IS of my opinion that Dr. Dre's production is both monotonous
and often sounds similar to previous songs.
My opinion only...
iLL oNE
stan young
>
> sampler?
>
First and foremost, D.J. Premier is one of the most creative, if not, the best producer on the face of this earth. He not only prod=
uces hip hop tracks, but he also does r&b. This displays his versatility as a producer. True he uses a sampler on ocassion but he =
also creates a beat from scratch. This is what makes a musician, his/her ability to adjust to certain situations, not what instrume=
nt of creativity he/she utilizes.
sea what ime sayin.
E. Peterson
> Seriously, though, a set of turntables and a mixer is a place for
>creativity- for making sounds that definitely weren't on the origianl
>vinyl. When you listen to those top, contest-winning DJs, it is
>_amazing_.
We can debate whether or not turntables are instruments but thats
something I dont really care about. I have a bunch of video tapes full of
DJ competitions. The shit is phat, and its how I got started to begin
with. Ive seen all kinds of crazy things being done with them. Dont get
me wrong, DJing is cool but you arnt going to produce anything with 2
turntables and a mixer.
> I would really say that the ability to work with a set of
>turntables like Premier can is a tremendous skill and I don't understand
>where your disrespect is coming from.
Ive never seen Premier do a show so I dont know how he is as a DJ. Its
not disrespect, its that producers like Premier get worshipped when its
uncalled for. That nigga gets more props than he is worth, but I guess
none of you would know that unless youve been in his shoes. Premier isnt
doing anything amazing and the type of production he does is one of the
easiest. That doesnt say anything about his music, so dont take it wrong
thinking Im calling him wack. Even though Im not a Premier fan.
E. Peterson
>> The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away his
>>
>> sampler?
>
>First and foremost, D.J. Premier is one of the most creative, if not, the best producer on the face of this earth. He not only prod=
>uces hip hop tracks, but he also does r&b. This displays his versatility as a producer. True he uses a sampler on ocassion but he =
>also creates a beat from scratch. This is what makes a musician, his/her ability to adjust to certain situations, not what instrume=
>nt of creativity he/she utilizes.
>
>sea what ime sayin.
This is exactly what Im talking about. Let me ask you a question. If
what you are saying is true, how come Premier has never been able to sell
a beat for more than $3000 but Ant Banks minimum is $7000, Studio Ton's
price is $5000, Dre's price is $20,000 (I think), Erick Sermon is $7000.
I could go on for ever with that shit. Ive already been through all this
so I know what Im talking about. If that nigga got that much respect in
the industry, he would have no problem selling beats for over $3000, but
he is having a hard time just doing that.
Douglas Smith
In article <4o4r0p$j...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> E. Peterson wrote:
>Date: 24 May 1996 17:18:17 GMT
>From: e...@u.washington.edu (E. Peterson)
>Newsgroups: alt.rap,rec.music.hip-hop
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>
>>> The point Im tryin to make is what would Premier be is you took away
> his
>>>
>>> sampler?
>>
>>First and foremost, D.J. Premier is one of the most creative, if not, the
> best producer on the faceof this earth. He not only prod=
>>uces hip hop tracks, but he also does r&b. This displays his versatility
> as a producer. True heuses a sampler on ocassion but he =
>>also creates a beat from scratch. This is what makes a musician, his/her
> ability to adjust to certainsituations, not what instrume=
>>nt of creativity he/she utilizes.
>>
>>sea what ime sayin.
>
>This is exactly what Im talking about. Let me ask you a question. If
>what you are saying is true, how come Premier has never been able to sell
>a beat for more than $3000 but Ant Banks minimum is $7000, Studio Ton's
>price is $5000, Dre's price is $20,000 (I think), Erick Sermon is $7000.
>
>I could go on for ever with that shit. Ive already been through all this
>so I know what Im talking about. If that nigga got that much respect in
>the industry, he would have no problem selling beats for over $3000, but
>he is having a hard time just doing that.
You obviously have some inside connection in the business to know how much
all of these producers make per track. What you fail to understand, though,
is that the asking price of all of these producers is based more on whether
or not they can deliver a hit than anything else. That's why Dre's price is
higher than the rest, according to your figures. He has delivered gold and
platinum hits. Respect in the industry and creativity has nothing to do with
it. Puffy is the most unimaginative and uncreative "producer" out there, yet
he still manages to remix Mariah Carey and SWV using as "his" music the
entire track of and old song. You think they hire him because he's creative?
Hell no! Like everything else, connections and the almighty dollar drive
everything. If he can deliver a gold or platinum record using someone else's
music, then so be it. You can best believe that if Premier produced
something that sold 1 million copies that his asking price would definitely
go up.
As for Dre being more creative (as you suggest in your post), you can't
really prop Dre up as being any more original or innovative than Premier.
You seem to forget that he samples too. A lot. He used the same loop for
"California Love" that EPMD used 5 years ago. He sampled the entire track of
an old '70's song (which I can't remember right now) for "Nuthin' But a G
Thang", and he did the same thing for "Express Yourself". The only
difference between him and Premier is that he adds some very basic synth
lines over top of his stuff. I'm not dissin' Dre. In fact, although I'm an
East Coast head, I do like some of his stuff. But Premier, to me, seems to
dig deeper to find shit that no one's heard before to create his shit. His
shit does not sound the same every time out as Dre's stuff has a tendency to
do. Just my opinion though...
>
Cerkit
On 24 May 1996 17:18:17 GMT, E. Peterson wrote:
This is exactly what Im talking about. Let me ask you a question. If
what you are saying is true, how come Premier has never been able to
sell
a beat for more than $3000 but Ant Banks minimum is $7000, Studio Ton's
price is $5000, Dre's price is $20,000 (I think), Erick Sermon is $7000.
Out of curiosity, where do you get these numbers?
==================
Cerkit [Breaker]
dnb...@ucdavis.edu
E. Peterson
>>This is exactly what Im talking about. Let me ask you a question. If
>>what you are saying is true, how come Premier has never been able to sell
>>a beat for more than $3000 but Ant Banks minimum is $7000, Studio Ton's
>>price is $5000, Dre's price is $20,000 (I think), Erick Sermon is $7000.
>>
>>so I know what Im talking about. If that nigga got that much respect in
>>the industry, he would have no problem selling beats for over $3000, but
>>he is having a hard time just doing that.
>
>You obviously have some inside connection in the business to know how much
>all of these producers make per track. What you fail to understand, though,
>is that the asking price of all of these producers is based more on whether
>or not they can deliver a hit than anything else. That's why Dre's price is
>higher than the rest, according to your figures. He has delivered gold and
>platinum hits. Respect in the industry and creativity has nothing to do with
>it. Puffy is the most unimaginative and uncreative "producer" out there, yet
>he still manages to remix Mariah Carey and SWV using as "his" music the
>entire track of and old song. You think they hire him because he's creative?
>Hell no! Like everything else, connections and the almighty dollar drive
>everything. If he can deliver a gold or platinum record using someone else's
>music, then so be it. You can best believe that if Premier produced
>something that sold 1 million copies that his asking price would definitely
>go up.
If I told everyone here who I know and what Ive worked on I would get a
million messages telling me I was lying or some kind of shit like that, so
I choose not to talk about it. Nearly everything I post is first hand
information which I either got in person, by phone, or by fax.
Anyways. I partly agree with what you said but there is something bigger
that you are buying from the producers than their hit potential. When you
buy a track off Dre, or Studio Ton, or Premier, you are buying their name.
You are buying the right to put "Produced by" on your records and that
alone will sell records without a doubt. People always get paid for their
name. Michael Jackson wasnt doing so hot so who did he get who was a hot
act at the time? Kris Kross, who were popular platinum artists at the
time. Why did Dallas Austin get to produce a bunch of shit on Madonnas
record? Because his name was popular with the work he did with TLC.
>As for Dre being more creative (as you suggest in your post), you can't
>really prop Dre up as being any more original or innovative than Premier.
>You seem to forget that he samples too. A lot. He used the same loop for
>"California Love" that EPMD used 5 years ago. He sampled the entire track of
>an old '70's song (which I can't remember right now) for "Nuthin' But a G
>Thang", and he did the same thing for "Express Yourself".
There is a very big difference between Dre and Premier that you arnt
paying attention to and thats, Dre doesnt need to sample to make beats and
Premier does. Yes, Dre has sampled in the past, but he doesnt have to
where thats all Premier has.
If sampling previously recorded material was illegal, I could count on two
hands how many rap producers there would be. "Nuthing But a G Thang" was
a remake of Leon Haywood's "I Want To Do Something Freaky (To You)" by the
way.
>The only
>difference between him and Premier is that he adds some very basic synth
>lines over top of his stuff. I'm not dissin' Dre. In fact, although I'm an
>East Coast head, I do like some of his stuff. But Premier, to me, seems to
>dig deeper to find shit that no one's heard before to create his shit. His
>shit does not sound the same every time out as Dre's stuff has a tendency to
>do. Just my opinion though...
A lot of people seem to say that Premier digs deep to find records nobody
has heard. Thats because he uses a lot of old Jazz and Blues, but at the
same time, how many people from 16-25 are old time Jazz and Blues fans?
Most people couldnt name more than 2 artists from each. But you ask
someone in their mid 40's if Premier is all that, and Im positive they
will give you a difference opinion.
I am always going to feel that producers who rely on sampling other
artists songs get over-props and I probably wont feel difference until it
stops. Most people with a sampler and a bunch of old records could be
Premier too, and a lot of other producers who are sample producers and not
real musicians.
Loklass
In article <4og4ti$5...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, e...@u.washington.edu (E.
Peterson) writes:
>I am always going to feel that producers who rely on sampling other
>artists songs get over-props and I probably wont feel difference until it
>stops. Most people with a sampler and a bunch of old records could be
>Premier too, and a lot of other producers who are sample producers and
not
>real musicians.
I'm sorry, but you need to understand and realize that hip hop was founded
on sampling and I *NEVER* want to see it completely stray away from that.
I prefer the sampled sound over any of the Casio bullshit, but of course,
that's just my opinion. I listen to all types of hip hop: traditional,
G-funk, and bass. I'm fairly open minded when it comes to hip hop music. I
just judge each sound in its own realm, because can you honestly say that
the _majority_ of the G-funk and bass rappers have much rhyme skill or
lyrical content? No. I think those types of hip hop are really viewed only
on the instrumental aspect and not the MC. In other words, as long as it
'bumps' then it's dope (coming from the G-funk fanatics).
Also, almost all the "live" producers you've listed simply do remakes of
old funk songs or base their track on a famous bass line or chord. Studio
Ton has come with a lot of original material, but a lot of his shit is
just remakes. So, really, that's not very far from arranging samples. I
don't know how you can think that those in the likes of Dre are production
gods and then say that Premier has little or no talent because he samples.
That's total and complete bullshit.
Peace
Loklass
El Papichulo Cubano
Douglas Smith
In article <4og4ti$5...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> E. Peterson wrote:
>Date: 29 May 1996 00:14:42 GMT
>From: e...@u.washington.edu (E. Peterson)
>Newsgroups: alt.rap
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>
> I partly agree with what you said but there is something bigger
>that you are buying from the producers than their hit potential. When you
>buy a track off Dre, or Studio Ton, or Premier, you are buying their name.
>
>You are buying the right to put "Produced by" on your records and that
>alone will sell records without a doubt. People always get paid for their
>name. Michael Jackson wasnt doing so hot so who did he get who was a hot
>act at the time? Kris Kross, who were popular platinum artists at the
>time. Why did Dallas Austin get to produce a bunch of shit on Madonnas
>record? Because his name was popular with the work he did with TLC.
I hear what you're sayin' here, but you sort of supported my point. When you
think about it, the people you used as examples to support your argument have
also sold a ton of records. Dallas Austin and Kris Kross have sold a gang of
records. I think Madonna went to him because she was thinking "shit, if that
muhfucka can write platinum hits for TLC, he can damn sure do the same for
me". Besides, how many people outside of industry even know who Dallas
Austin is, let alone bought Madonna's record because he produced it? Surely
not Madonna's fan base.
True, you are buying a name when you hire a producer. But I think the reality
is that record companies, for the most part, only care about the bottom line.
Their thinking is "Who's gonna give me that hit?" "Who has a track record of
hits?" "Let's get him because he produced or remixed something that went
platinum!" The only other way you get work in the industry is to have some
hype behind your name, and believe me, if record companies have a choice,
they're gonna go with the person who can deliver hits. When Premier, Pete
Rock, Diamond D and the rest of the so-called East Coast producers churn out
platinum singles and albums, people will be lined up at their door willing to
pay exorbitant amounts of money for a track.
>
>>As for Dre being more creative (as you suggest in your post), you can't
>>really prop Dre up as being any more original or innovative than Premier.
>
>>You seem to forget that he samples too. A lot. He used the same loop
> for
>>"California Love" that EPMD used 5 years ago. He sampled the entire
> track of
>>an old '70's song (which I can't remember right now) for "Nuthin' But a G
>>Thang", and he did the same thing for "Express Yourself".
>
>There is a very big difference between Dre and Premier that you arnt
>paying attention to and thats, Dre doesnt need to sample to make beats and
>Premier does. Yes, Dre has sampled in the past, but he doesnt have to
>where thats all Premier has.
>
>If sampling previously recorded material was illegal, I could count on two
>hands how many rap producers there would be. "Nuthing But a G Thang" was
>a remake of Leon Haywood's "I Want To Do Something Freaky (To You)" by the
>way.
>
>Some of what you say here is true. Where I disagree with you is on what it
takes to make a beat. In my mind, all a beat is is a drum track. To make a
drum track, all you need is a bass drum, some open and closed hi-hats, a
snare, and maybe a clap and some other percussion. In this regard, there is
no difference between Dre and Premier. Both of them use drum machines to
make drum tracks. Both of them use sampled drum sounds to make drum tracks.
The difference lies in what happens next, meaning what music goes on top and
whether or not it is sampled or something totally original. You say that Dre
doesn't have to sample whereas that's all Premier does. The question is, is
that all that Premier is capable of doing, or is he just producing hip-hop as
it has always been produced: with samples? The reality is that hip-hop is
grounded in using old music. It is sample-based. What Premier is doing is a
continuation of that.
I also think that with east coast hip-hop, there is the expectation that you
will use samples to create your tracks. Me and my partner are producers
capable of making original music. Yet when it comes time to make a hip-hop
track, we automatically begin to search for samples to use to create it. At
risk of being wrong, I would suggest that Premier uses samples for the same
reason and really hasn't had an opportunity yet to produce something totally
original.
>
>>The only
>>difference between him and Premier is that he adds some very basic synth
>>lines over top of his stuff. I'm not dissin' Dre. In fact, although I'm
> an
>>East Coast head, I do like some of his stuff. But Premier, to me, seems
> to
>>dig deeper to find shit that no one's heard before to create his shit.
> His
>>shit does not sound the same every time out as Dre's stuff has a tendency
> to
>>do. Just my opinion though...
>
>A lot of people seem to say that Premier digs deep to find records nobody
>has heard. Thats because he uses a lot of old Jazz and Blues, but at the
>same time, how many people from 16-25 are old time Jazz and Blues fans?
>Most people couldnt name more than 2 artists from each. But you ask
>someone in their mid 40's if Premier is all that, and Im positive they
>will give you a difference opinion.
>
That's just it! The idea is to use something no one has heard before and
make it sound dope. Who cares if there aren't that many 16-25 year old Jazz
and Blues fans? Premier is not making Jazz and Blues records. He's using
them to create hip-hop. You don't necessarily have to be a jazz and blues
fan to appreciate his tracks.
>I am always going to feel that producers who rely on sampling other
>artists songs get over-props and I probably wont feel difference until it
>stops. Most people with a sampler and a bunch of old records could be
>Premier too, and a lot of other producers who are sample producers and not
>real musicians.
>
Here is where I actually agree with you. In my mind, sample hip-hop
producers do what they do and they do it well. The guys who sample seem to
go through a lot of effort to find obscure samples and cut and chop them up
to make tracks. I'll give them respect for that. But in terms of creating
new music, I sometimes think that people forget it takes a lot more effort
and talent to come up with original basslines, chords, melodies and musical
arrangements than it takes to sample. There is a huge difference between
working hard to find a record to sample and working hard to find that chord
progression that works with your song. Me and my partner do both, and while
I love hip-hop to death (especially the kind that uses samples) it takes alot
more effort and energy for us to write original music.
I think the remedy is to not compare sample producers to composers of
original music. Just my opinion though. By the way, what do you think of
the Roots? They are totally original and as far as I know they use no
samples. Do you think Dre is as talented as them?
kt...@silver.sdsmt.edu
In article <4ohnko$p...@news-e2c.gnn.com> DSmit...@gnn.com (Douglas Smith) writes:
>From: DSmit...@gnn.com (Douglas Smith)
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
In my opinion, nothing Dre has done can touch the samples used in MuthaFuckin'
Man (Jeru's verse -Daily Operation) and Speak Your Clout (Lil' Dap and Jeru's
verses)/Words from the Nutcracker (Hard To Earn)
And I know of two local producers that not only sample records, but their own
voices and self-provided keyboard rifts (one's trying to blend it all in with
yet another dimension which doesn't involve sampling).
-T'Da
Jesse A McDonald
: I'm sorry, but you need to understand and realize that hip hop was founded
: on sampling and I *NEVER* want to see it completely stray away from that.
record, taking a break beat, pulling one back while the other plays,
crossfading, over and over... THAT'S hip hop DJing!
Broadcaster
>There is a very big difference between Dre and Premier that you arnt
>paying attention to and thats, Dre doesnt need to sample to make beats
>and Premier does. Yes, Dre has sampled in the past, but he doesnt have
>to where thats all Premier has.
Isn't a keyboard note/sound also a sample?
[Snip]
>A lot of people seem to say that Premier digs deep to find records
>nobody has heard. Thats because he uses a lot of old Jazz and Blues,
>but at the same time, how many people from 16-25 are old time Jazz and
>Blues fans? Most people couldnt name more than 2 artists from each.
>But you ask someone in their mid 40's if Premier is all that, and Im
>positive they will give you a difference opinion.
Good point.
>I am always going to feel that producers who rely on sampling other
>artists songs get over-props and I probably wont feel difference until
>it stops. Most people with a sampler and a bunch of old records could
>be Premier too, and a lot of other producers who are sample producers
>and not real musicians.
First we should get one thing straight producer and musician ain't the
same. A producer is the one that listens to a idea and take care of it's
potential. He then hires musicians and technicians. Today most hip-hop
and dance producers have their own home studio where they can do their
tracks them self.
Put this argument of which techniques the best on a rapper. Is the style
he/she uses more important and makes him/her more of a rapper or is it
what is said.
Is sampling or playing more important than doin' a good track?
Let's say that you replay something you should have looped and just
change one or two notes or alter the duration of some notes, a easy thing
to do with a computer sequence. Maybe you didn't replay it right or had
the right keystroke. Is that more creative than chopping up a sample and
do the same?
Peace.
Broadcaster D.
Wax Crackers Ink & Underground Productions (Sweden).
E. Peterson
> This is exactly what Im talking about. Let me ask you a question. If
> what you are saying is true, how come Premier has never been able to
> sell
> a beat for more than $3000 but Ant Banks minimum is $7000, Studio Ton's
> price is $5000, Dre's price is $20,000 (I think), Erick Sermon is $7000.
>
>
>==================
> Cerkit [Breaker]
>dnb...@ucdavis.edu
I deal directly with a lot of producers and artists and am friends with a
lot of them. I dont talk about it too much with people outside the
industry because everyone seems to think its some big fucking deal.
Nobody realizes that we are in the same business so knowing people isnt
shit.
E. Peterson
>I'm sorry, but you need to understand and realize that hip hop was founded
>on sampling and I *NEVER* want to see it completely stray away from that.
>that's just my opinion.
I have been there since it started myself and I dont ever want hip-hop to
lose its original chemistry either but I also believe in letting the music
grow beyond its foundation.
>I listen to all types of hip hop: traditional,
>G-funk, and bass. I'm fairly open minded when it comes to hip hop music. I
>just judge each sound in its own realm, because can you honestly say that
>the _majority_ of the G-funk and bass rappers have much rhyme skill or
>lyrical content? No. I think those types of hip hop are really viewed only
>on the instrumental aspect and not the MC. In other words, as long as it
>'bumps' then it's dope (coming from the G-funk fanatics).
Im not talking about peoples MC skills at all. Im just saying that its my
opinion that producers who rely solely on sampling other peoples music get
more props than they deserve. People look up to these cats like theyre
gods but what they do isnt that hard.
>Also, almost all the "live" producers you've listed simply do remakes of
>old funk songs or base their track on a famous bass line or chord. Studio
>Ton has come with a lot of original material, but a lot of his shit is
>just remakes. So, really, that's not very far from arranging samples. I
>don't know how you can think that those in the likes of Dre are production
>gods and then say that Premier has little or no talent because he samples.
>That's total and complete bullshit.
Thats not what I said but I am saying that Premier isnt doing anything
amazing. Hes not doing something that most people couldnt do with a
sampler and crates of old records to sample from.
E. Peterson
>>You are buying the right to put "Produced by" on your records and that
>>alone will sell records without a doubt. People always get paid for their
>>name. Michael Jackson wasnt doing so hot so who did he get who was a hot
>>act at the time? Kris Kross, who were popular platinum artists at the
>>time. Why did Dallas Austin get to produce a bunch of shit on Madonnas
>>record? Because his name was popular with the work he did with TLC.
>
>I hear what you're sayin' here, but you sort of supported my point. When you
>think about it, the people you used as examples to support your argument have
>also sold a ton of records. Dallas Austin and Kris Kross have sold a gang of
>records. I think Madonna went to him because she was thinking "shit, if that
>muhfucka can write platinum hits for TLC, he can damn sure do the same for
>me". Besides, how many people outside of industry even know who Dallas
>Austin is, let alone bought Madonna's record because he produced it? Surely
>not Madonna's fan base.
>
>True, you are buying a name when you hire a producer. But I think the reality
>is that record companies, for the most part, only care about the bottom line.
>Their thinking is "Who's gonna give me that hit?" "Who has a track record of
>hits?" "Let's get him because he produced or remixed something that went
>platinum!" The only other way you get work in the industry is to have some
>hype behind your name, and believe me, if record companies have a choice,
>they're gonna go with the person who can deliver hits. When Premier, Pete
>Rock, Diamond D and the rest of the so-called East Coast producers churn out
>platinum singles and albums, people will be lined up at their door willing to
>pay exorbitant amounts of money for a track.
All of that is very true. I think both of us have good points and agree
on a lot of this. In some cases a persons popularity makes them
successful doing records. Deon Sanders for example. I didnt like any of
his songs but he still moved some units because he is Deon.
>Some of what you say here is true. Where I disagree with you is on what it
>takes to make a beat. In my mind, all a beat is is a drum track. To make a
>drum track, all you need is a bass drum, some open and closed hi-hats, a
>snare, and maybe a clap and some other percussion. In this regard, there is
>no difference between Dre and Premier. Both of them use drum machines to
>make drum tracks. Both of them use sampled drum sounds to make drum tracks.
>The difference lies in what happens next, meaning what music goes on top and
>whether or not it is sampled or something totally original. You say that Dre
>doesn't have to sample whereas that's all Premier does. The question is, is
>that all that Premier is capable of doing, or is he just producing hip-hop as
>it has always been produced: with samples? The reality is that hip-hop is
>grounded in using old music. It is sample-based. What Premier is doing is a
>continuation of that.
>
>I also think that with east coast hip-hop, there is the expectation that you
>will use samples to create your tracks. Me and my partner are producers
>capable of making original music. Yet when it comes time to make a hip-hop
>track, we automatically begin to search for samples to use to create it. At
>risk of being wrong, I would suggest that Premier uses samples for the same
>reason and really hasn't had an opportunity yet to produce something totally
>original.
Ill agree with that too. I dont know what Premiers agenda looks like but
Im sure that not many west coast artists, or r&b artists, or whoever are
knocking down his door for tracks. He is known for a certain sound.
People expect that from him and Im sure every time he gets ready to work
on something new, he uses the same foundation.
>Here is where I actually agree with you. In my mind, sample hip-hop
>producers do what they do and they do it well. The guys who sample seem to
>go through a lot of effort to find obscure samples and cut and chop them up
>to make tracks. I'll give them respect for that. But in terms of creating
>new music, I sometimes think that people forget it takes a lot more effort
>and talent to come up with original basslines, chords, melodies and musical
>arrangements than it takes to sample. There is a huge difference between
>working hard to find a record to sample and working hard to find that chord
>progression that works with your song. Me and my partner do both, and while
>I love hip-hop to death (especially the kind that uses samples) it takes alot
>more effort and energy for us to write original music.
Absolutely. When I hear all these people saying that Premier and the GZA
and so on are the best and Dre is a talentless nobody, I cant take them
serious on anything anymore. The fact is that most people have no idea
what it takes to come up with a Premier track, or a Dre track, and so they
lack the respect.
>I think the remedy is to not compare sample producers to composers of
>original music. Just my opinion though. By the way, what do you think of
>the Roots? They are totally original and as far as I know they use no
>samples. Do you think Dre is as talented as them?
Ive heard the exact same. I dont think its a question of is Dre as
talents as whoever produced The Roots, I think its a matter of are they
talented at what they do. Every producer has atleast one thing that is
their trademark. I think every producer feels the most comfortable with
one certain thing than anything else and every producer as a result has
their specialty.
Douglas Smith
In article <4ol336$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> E. Peterson wrote:
>Date: 30 May 1996 21:14:14 GMT
>From: e...@u.washington.edu (E. Peterson)
>Newsgroups: alt.rap
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>
I'm glad that we could have a civil discussion about this! Sometimes I think
some people in this newsgroup say a lot of shit without thinking it through
first. You just have to pick 'em apart point by point. Peace!
IR34
RZA IS DA TIGHTEST PRODUCER ON THE PLANET,ANY NIGGAS THAT DON'T AGREE WITH
THAT SMOKED ONE TOO MANY BLUNTS
dch...@azstarnet.com
In article <4oqdjn$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ir...@aol.com (IR34) writes:
>From: ir...@aol.com (IR34)
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>RZA IS DA TIGHTEST PRODUCER ON THE PLANET,ANY NIGGAS THAT DON'T AGREE WITH
>THAT SMOKED ONE TOO MANY BLUNTS
No doubt. To even compare Rza to Dre's wack sampled shit is ludicrous. Y'all
need to wake up. I heard about Snoop Doggy Dogg issuing a challenge on BET or
something a few years ago. Now just think what would happen if you got the
whole clan which is said to hold over 300 members and have them battle Death
Row... they can't even survive in New York for more than a week. They said
somebody tried blast them in the first couple days they were there. Fuck
Death Row. And fuck all their commercialized shit. And while you're at it
fuck Coolio and Deion Sanders. The only rappers who can remotely keep up with
Wu rhymes aren't from fuckin Cali. Although I give Pharcyde and the mighty
Souls of Mischief props. Don't waste our time with this Dre can beat Rza
shit. Lipstick wearin ass. Fuck him. That's all I have to say about that.
Ryland
Douglas Smith
In article <4oqdjn$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> IR34 wrote:
>Date: 1 Jun 1996 17:44:23 -0400
>From: ir...@aol.com (IR34)
>Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>Newsgroups: alt.rap
>Subject: Re: RZA vs. DRE
>
>RZA IS DA TIGHTEST PRODUCER ON THE PLANET,ANY NIGGAS THAT DON'TAGREE WITH
>THAT SMOKED ONE TOO MANY BLUNTS
Uh, I don't agree with you AND I don't smoke blunts, so what does that make
me? I like some of RZA's stuff, but I don't think he's the tightest.
Jesse A McDonald
: >RZA IS DA TIGHTEST PRODUCER ON THE PLANET,ANY NIGGAS THAT DON'T AGREE WITH
: >THAT SMOKED ONE TOO MANY BLUNTS
Dre doesn't sample, psychopath! RZA samples sometimes, and when
he does it's what makes him GOOD, whereas Dre's wack KEYBOARDS make him wack.
Matts fake
yo-da rza is razor sharp-he walks the edge-bust dope rhymes and chill
mixes--dre , wel dat bitch is flatter den a white girl's ass
JHall93545
RZA is the best producer. He is tight. Does he only have one arm
Arlontus Halliburton
On 17 Jun 1996, JHall93545 wrote:
> RZA is the best producer. He is tight. Does he only have one arm
>
>
I would have to deny thr RZA with best producer. Dre is the Dr. and the
best producer in the industry.
P.E.A.C.E.
A-MAN
Dischord00
I want something to bob my head to
rza serves that shit on a platter every time
dre cannot do that shit
dan
plus that nigga be wearing lipstick in his fag ass
days
dan
Pv
I was listening to Dre from the WCWC days, and he always had the rough
beats - were'nt that lipstick cute! It's kind of faggoty some of the
things people did back in the days, all spangly suits and make-up.
Dre is the man with the beats. You never heard NWA or DOC? The Chronic?
And Rza? Dre's shown and proven, he can work with any MC, coast to
coast, and he makes me move with every beat. Rza's real good as well,
but let's see what he does for ODB's PtII, Ghostface's and the Wu's PtII
later in the year.
So, best producers of all time, with some of their best moments, in no
order -
1. Dr. Dre. (World Class Wrecking Crew, Any NWA, DOC's first, Snoop,
Himself).
2. DJ Premier. (Any Gangstarr or related fam, Illmatic, KRS).
3. Ced Gee (Critcial Beatdown)
4. Rza. (Wu Tang, ODB, Raekwon, Genius, etc).
5. Sir Jinx (Ice Cube, Kool G Rap & Polo's third LP).
6. Eric B/Rakim (Kool G Rap & Polo's second LP, any EB & Rakim).
7. Prince Paul (Stetsasonic, Gravediggaz, De La).
8. Bomb Squad. (Ice Cube, PE).
9. Showbiz (Any Show&AG, KRS).
10. Marley Marl (Shante, Shan, Kane, Kool G Rap & Polo, LL Cool J)
Finest MC's -
1. Grandmaster Melle Mel. (Everything he wrote).
2. KRS-1 (My Philosophy, Edutainment, Sex & Lies).
3. Nas (Illmatic, It Was Written).
4. Kool Keith (Critical Beatdown, Four Horsemen).
5. Ice Cube (Everything he wrote).
6. Kool G Rap (Live & Let Die, Road To Riches, 2nd LP whose name I can't
remember).
7. Big Daddy Kane (Anything RAW and not R&B).
8. Pharoahe Monche (STRESS).
9. Roxanne Shante (Anything she wrote).
10. LL Cool J (Mama Said..., Radio, Bigger & Deffer).
Now you can't tell me that ain't a bad-arsed line-up.
Burn Hollywood, Burn.
And-Ru
Pv <br...@csd.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>Finest MC's -
Kinda funny when you list the top ten producers and you say the your
Number 1 is dr Dre and you leave Pete Rock off the list - hmm makes me
wonder sometimes....