>>>>future >>>>>>>and >>>>>>>> have major pyschological scars.
>>>>>>>Cite.
>>>>>>>k
>>>>>>I have no online cites, just 2 girls I know who
did it that had to live
>>>>with >>>>>>those regrets. Don't tell me you actually
believe that a woman would have
>>>>an >>>>>>abortion and then go about like like she just had a wart removed. >>>>>>Get real.
>>>>>Well, I've known at least TWELVE or so gals that
had abortions, Tina, and
>>>>NONE >>>>>of them had ANY regrets -- matter 'o fact, their
lives were immeasurably
>>>>>IMPROVED by not popping a sprog. They're all
stable, happy, and have good
>>>>Wow, greg twelve women were they all your babies?
>>>>ives >>>>>now (and some of 'em went on to have
families...). If they had gone
>>through >>>>>with their pregnancies, there's a very strong
possiblility that most of
>>'em >>>>>would have ended up in life as dead - end losers.
>>>>>[Of course YOU realize that MY anecdotal
examples trump YOURS because I'M
>>>>using >>>>>a LARGER sampling base...that way I can tell
MORE stories than YOU
>>can....]
>>>>Yes, but you have believe there is another
spectrum to the situation, that
>>>>some >>>>women do have regrets and have become sterile because of it.
>>>Eve wrote: >>>Please cite the percentage of women who have had
abortions who become
>>sterile >>>because of it. >>>You are perpetuating a myth, Irma. Unless of
course, the women you are
>>>speaking about don't know abortion clinics and
insist on having "that
>>neighbor
>>>lady" do it on her kitchen table. You aren't
talking about that type of
>>woman, >>>are you?
>>Eve, didya know that Frank Sinatra's mom, Dolly,
was a "kitchen table"
>>abortionist back in the 20's and 30's in lower
working - class Hoboken NJ?
>>She >>spent some time in jail IIRC. This, of course, did
not preclude the Sinatras
>>from being STAUNCH Catholics and big wheels in the local >>Italian/Irish/Catholic >>political scene (Dolly was a Democratic ward heeler
[which I'm SURE some here
>>will blame on Clinton, lol...]).
>>In the 80's Frankie Boy embraced the GOPee and
became pals with the Reagans.
>>When Frank accompanied pro - life Ronnie during a
Hoboken campaign rally in
>>the >>80's, Frank was SO humiliated by the memory of his
abortionist mother's
>>activities (which many in Hoboken still
remembered), that he literally
>>cowered >>in the corner behind Ronnie....
>>Best >>Greg
>>AUTHENTIC quote by one of my BEST friends:
>>"If you hang out with Greg long enough, you'll
learn ALL kinds of useless
>>shit...."
>Eve write: >Yep, Greg, I did know that Dolly was a "neighborhood
lady who helped good
>Catholic girls in trouble."
I forgot to mention that she was known in the 'hood as "Hatpin Dolly"...charming, JUST charming, lol....
Frank supposedly put out a contract on Kitty Kelly
>just before that book came out.
Well, Frank had a contract out on just about EVERYBODY at one time or another....
Do you remember why Frankie turned coat and
>became a supporter of the GOPEE? And it wasn't
Nancy Reagan's box ankles that
>did the trick.
Yes. He sure did end up hating the Kennedy's, didn't he?
And I'd rather have FS as an enemy than Nancita -- she takes the cake in vindictiveness and shrewery....
At least Frank liked his kids ('though he had some trouble with Frank Jr.). Did you know that he gave daughter Nancy the FIRST 1955 Ford Thunderbird off the production line for her 16th b'day? AND it was painted a special pink color....
Becky Bell died from pneumonia. There was no abortion, only an incomplete miscarriage. It's tragic enough that she died, but it is truly pathetic and inexcusable that her dignity is being subjected daily to an ongoing process as humiliating and degrading as rape by NARAL's misuse of her story.
> > My question is if abortion is murdering the "baby", why don't people opposed to > > abortion try to have legislation passed that would charge the women who have > > abortions with murder or those women who seek abortions with attempted murder. > > There would be no abortion clinics/practioners if the women weren't there > > demanding the service. Following this idea to its extreme (why not, everyone else > > does), those who use IUDs or the morning after pill could be charged with > > attempted murder, too.
> Actually, Biblically, forced miscarriage, i.e. abortion, was not treated on a par > with other forms of murder.
> See: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and > she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, > the offender must be fined whatever the woman's > husband demands and the court allows." > [Can be translated: she has a miscarriage] > (Exodus 21:22)
> Perhaps the reason that no one treats it absolutely the same is that it may not > equate. For instance, I disagree with pro-life people who equate millions of > abortions with the Holocaust. That is not to say that abortion is desirable, just > that it doesn't equate. Ironically, if some people who claim to be Christians read > their Bibles then they would know that Biblically it doesn't equate in an absolute > sense. That's just what the Bible says.
> For instance, other un-intentional deaths were treated differently > than unintentional death by abortion as cited above:
> "12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills > him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does > not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to > flee to a place I will designate." (Ib.)
I see your point about accidentally caused miscarriages. It makes perfect sense, however most abortions are actively sought by the pregnant woman. That make the death intentional. Should more severe sanctions be considered for willful murder?
The one point this woman made that stands, was that our society uses the concept of "parental consent" on other things.
Which begs the question..... why would anybody want to flip flop this standard on this SINGLE issue, when others are as dangerous, morally reprehensible, politically incorrect..... etc.... both sides have their issues they want to control.
As a new parent, I DO expect to have a say in my childs experiences/decsions when they are under age. I SHOULD expect that because if they do something that is wrong society will hold me ultimately accountable if not by the "moralists" on one side then by the "everybody feel good" crowd on the other.
Now that you have formed an opinion of me....
I do believe in Pro-Choice because it leaves it to the individual unlike the opposing arguement. BUT I also believe in personal responsibility.... which starts by facing ones mistakes before those who matter. In the case of underage children, then it be Parents.
For those who don't fall in easily to consent, well I am truely sorry that life dealt you the bad hand. We all have our cards to play in our own way, mine are bad enough don't make me play yours.
If this response is anyway out of character (format) for this group, my appologies in advance.
>> >I suppose you support legalizing drugs and all self-destructive or risky >> >behaviors >> >under the same theory based on anectdotal argument. Ergo you must support >> >drug >> >education and teaching girls and boys safe ways of doing drugs. You must >> >support >> >clinics where they can go to do safe drugs. Etc.
>> >One has to wonder if you think that Becky Bell wasn't in a position to >make a >> >rational choice, as well. Aren't you pro-choice? Also, you haven't >> >demonstrated >> >that abortion is generally safer than it used to be. To blame what may >very >> >well >> >happen at consistent rates in any sociopolitical setting on only some >> >politics is a >> >specious argument.
>> >It is likely that what Becky Bell needed was support and counseling. >> >However, such >> >things are not things that abortionist profiteers and neofeminist >ideological >> >idiots tend to support.
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant >From: "C.J.W." watt2...@bellatlantic.net >Date: 3/2/01 9:13 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <3A9FD539.119AA...@bellatlantic.net>
>k wrote:
>> "C.J.W." <watt2...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message >> news:3A9F308C.A66D125B@bellatlantic.net... >> If there was a warning label >> > for abortion it would read pretty dismally and actually warn of some real >> risks.
>> How about the warnings for pregnancy and childbirth?
>They wouldn't read as dismally. E.g., with pregnancy there is generally no >risk that little pieces of a baby ripped apart will be left in the womb to >cause various infections as the body parts rot, etc. >-- >--W >http://member.newsguy.com/~watt2020/Public_Life_and_Homosexuality.html Eve wrote:
Unless the abortion is being performed by an eagle with talons, it isn't usually the case. First trimester abortions are no more invasive or debilitating or dangerous than a D&C. In fact, that's what they are. Eve
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant >From: "C.J.W." watt2...@bellatlantic.net >Date: 3/2/01 10:37 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <3A9FE8CE.E8A8B...@bellatlantic.net>
>Lucy Edmison wrote: ><snip>
>> My question is if abortion is murdering the "baby", why don't people >opposed to >> abortion try to have legislation passed that would charge the women who >have >> abortions with murder or those women who seek abortions with attempted >murder. >> There would be no abortion clinics/practioners if the women weren't there >> demanding the service. Following this idea to its extreme (why not, >everyone else >> does), those who use IUDs or the morning after pill could be charged with >> attempted murder, too.
>Actually, Biblically, forced miscarriage, i.e. abortion, was not treated on a >par >with other forms of murder.
>See: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and >she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, >the offender must be fined whatever the woman's >husband demands and the court allows." >[Can be translated: she has a miscarriage] >(Exodus 21:22)
snip
Eve wrote:
You are forgetting the context of the society in which these laws were made. Women were property and the loss of a unborn child or even a wife were not considered severly more criminal than the killing of your neighbor's ox. Eve
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant >From: georgann chena...@mindspring.com >Date: 3/2/01 4:30 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <B6C4FC9D.1211D%chena...@mindspring.com>
>>>> georgann wrote: >>> You're more heartless than Dr. L. My friend didn't just blurt it out. We >>> were good friends for a long time before she even told me. And since I do >>> know her, and you DON'T, I can tell you definitively she was hurting. And >it >>> was a number of years earlier.
>JAY1BEE: >> Then she's either a wimp, doesn't believe in her own religion, or >wallowing >> in being miserable. >> Ivy
>georgann wrote: >She was/is none of the above, hag. She's self employed and independent. Does >believe in her "own" religion. And wasn't enjoying how it made her feel to >have had an abortion.
>Why don't you go pick on some orphans or something. They should be really >full of self-pity in your view. Eve wrote:
Just a question, Georgann. Why did your friend have an abortion? Was she too young at the time? Was she under pressure from family, etc., to have an abortion rather than an illigitimate pregnancy? Sometimes the reasons why people do things have an effect on how they feel afterwards. Eve
> >Then get off your duff now and convince girls to abstain or > >at least use birth control.
> We're doing that but not everyone listens. It will always be > that way.
It would help if all the prurient Right-Wingers, such as LAURA (on topic!!!!!!!) didn't keep trying to have sex education banned whenever possible.
The US has a much higher rate of out-of-wedlock birth than Europe. The Europeans think our shut-your-eyes-and-it-won't- happen attitude toward teen sex is bizarre. I agree, and think we've got the pregnancy rate to prove it.
I also think that Tina is unusual in her attitude of supporting birth control while being against abortion (although, in another post, she admits to wanting it to stay legal). Many of the most rabid anti-choicers can't wait to go back to the glory days before Griswold v. Connecticut.
trdm Will explain references to Supreme Court cases for chocolate -- Maddi Hausmann Sojourner madh...@alumni.princeton.edu
>>>>> georgann wrote: >>>> You're more heartless than Dr. L. My friend didn't just blurt it out. We >>>> were good friends for a long time before she even told me. And since I do >>>> know her, and you DON'T, I can tell you definitively she was hurting. And >>>> it was a number of years earlier.
>> JAY1BEE: >>> Then she's either a wimp, doesn't believe in her own religion, or wallowing >>> in being miserable. >>> Ivy >> georgann wrote: >> She was/is none of the above, hag. She's self employed and independent. Does >> believe in her "own" religion. And wasn't enjoying how it made her feel to >> have had an abortion.
>> Why don't you go pick on some orphans or something. They should be really >> full of self-pity in your view. > Eve wrote: > Just a question, Georgann. Why did your friend have an abortion? Was she too > young at the time? Was she under pressure from family, etc., to have an > abortion rather than an illigitimate pregnancy? Sometimes the reasons why > people do things have an effect on how they feel afterwards. > Eve georgann wrote:
She was still in college and not yet married to the guy. They eventually did marry. They also eventually had a son. I don't know the why part other than that.
-- % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % Exodus 6:2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, ""I am the LORD; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them."" % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % %
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant >From: tinas49...@aol.com (Tinas49ers) >Date: 3/2/01 7:01 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20010302100125.05585.00000...@ng-cm1.aol.com>
>Ivy wrote: >>>> >>were good friends for a long time before she even told me. And since I >>do >>>> >>know her, and you DON'T, I can tell you definitively she was hurting. >>And >>>it >>>> >>was a number of years earlier.
>>>> >Then she's either a wimp, doesn't believe in her own religion, or >>>wallowing >>>> >in>being miserable. >>>> >>Ivy
>>>> Of course, those aren't mutually exclusive choices.
>>>You are incorrect. I would also note that she is only dealing with what >>many >>>"women"/girls deal with as a result of abortion. In contrast to such a >>case, >>>some >>>others who have abortions become radical feminists and abortion is a path >to >>>that >>>ideology. I suppose it's their way of dealing with guilt. Another way is >>>the way >>>in Japan (as I recall) where they make little statuettes of the baby which >>>they >>>put on a shrine, etc. It would seem that the common thread is guilt, as >>well >>>as >>>remorse or an attempt to stridently deny guilt. >>>-- >>>--W
>>Just accepting Georgeann's statement that her friend was a Christian, >>born-again variety. If you feel she is doing guilt, then it must be that >she >>doesn't believe her god will forgive her, i.e., she doesn't believe in her >>own >>religion.
>You can feel guilty even after you're forgiven.
> Tina
>We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are >dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all >have >to learn to live in the same box. Eve wrote:
It's true, but I don't think "guilt" is the appropriate emotion. It's probably more like "unworthy". IMO, this is why people like DL strive to keep "shame" in the picture; and why counselors strive to get people who feel "ashamed and unworthy" to realize they are merely human. Shame used to be a great method of keeping people in line. Thank God, many people are not allowing themselves to be crippled by it any longer. Eve
>>>>>>>>> If you're stupid. It can mess up your >chances of reproducing in the >>>>>future >>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>> have major pyschological scars.
>>>>>>>>Cite.
>>>>>>>>k
>>>>>>>I have no online cites, just 2 girls I know who >did it that had to live >>>>>with >>>>>>>those regrets. Don't tell me you actually >believe that a woman would have >>>>>an >>>>>>>abortion and then go about like like she just >had a wart removed. >>>>>>>Get real.
>>>>>>Well, I've known at least TWELVE or so gals that >had abortions, Tina, and >>>>>NONE >>>>>>of them had ANY regrets -- matter 'o fact, their >lives were immeasurably >>>>>>IMPROVED by not popping a sprog. They're all >stable, happy, and have good
>>>>>Wow, greg twelve women were they all your babies?
>>>>>ives >>>>>>now (and some of 'em went on to have >families...). If they had gone >>>through >>>>>>with their pregnancies, there's a very strong >possiblility that most of >>>'em >>>>>>would have ended up in life as dead - end >losers.
>>>>>>[Of course YOU realize that MY anecdotal >examples trump YOURS because I'M >>>>>using >>>>>>a LARGER sampling base...that way I can tell >MORE stories than YOU >>>can....]
>>>>>Yes, but you have believe there is another >spectrum to the situation, that >>>>>some >>>>>women do have regrets and have become sterile >because of it.
>>>>Eve wrote: >>>>Please cite the percentage of women who have had >abortions who become >>>sterile >>>>because of it. >>>>You are perpetuating a myth, Irma. Unless of >course, the women you are >>>>speaking about don't know abortion clinics and >insist on having "that >>>neighbor
>>>>lady" do it on her kitchen table. You aren't >talking about that type of >>>woman, >>>>are you?
>>>Eve, didya know that Frank Sinatra's mom, Dolly, >was a "kitchen table" >>>abortionist back in the 20's and 30's in lower >working - class Hoboken NJ? >>>She >>>spent some time in jail IIRC. This, of course, did >not preclude the Sinatras >>>from being STAUNCH Catholics and big wheels in the >local >>>Italian/Irish/Catholic >>>political scene (Dolly was a Democratic ward heeler >[which I'm SURE some here >>>will blame on Clinton, lol...]).
>>>In the 80's Frankie Boy embraced the GOPee and >became pals with the Reagans. >>>When Frank accompanied pro - life Ronnie during a >Hoboken campaign rally in >>>the >>>80's, Frank was SO humiliated by the memory of his >abortionist mother's >>>activities (which many in Hoboken still >remembered), that he literally >>>cowered >>>in the corner behind Ronnie....
>>>Best >>>Greg
>>>AUTHENTIC quote by one of my BEST friends:
>>>"If you hang out with Greg long enough, you'll >learn ALL kinds of useless >>>shit...."
>>Eve write: >>Yep, Greg, I did know that Dolly was a "neighborhood >lady who helped good >>Catholic girls in trouble."
>I forgot to mention that she was known in the 'hood >as "Hatpin Dolly"...charming, JUST charming, lol....
>Frank supposedly put out a contract on Kitty Kelly >>just before that book came out.
>Well, Frank had a contract out on just about >EVERYBODY at one time or another....
>Do you remember why Frankie turned coat and >>became a supporter of the GOPEE? And it wasn't >Nancy Reagan's box ankles that >>did the trick.
>Yes. He sure did end up hating the Kennedy's, didn't >he?
>And I'd rather have FS as an enemy than Nancita -- >she takes the cake in vindictiveness and shrewery....
>At least Frank liked his kids ('though he had some >trouble with Frank Jr.). Did you know that he gave >daughter Nancy the FIRST 1955 Ford Thunderbird off >the production line for her 16th b'day? AND it was >painted a special pink color....
>Best >Greg >> Eve Eve wrote:
No, I didn't remember that. Was it in Kitty's book? Eve
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant >From: tinas49...@aol.com (Tinas49ers) >Date: 3/2/01 6:30 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20010302093005.05634.00000...@ng-cm1.aol.com>
>Eve wrote: >>From: tinas49...@aol.com (Tinas49ers) >>>Date: 3/1/01 6:46 PM Pacific Standard Time >>>Message-id: <20010301214619.10835.00000...@ng-cj1.aol.com>
>>>Eve wrote: >>>>Why are you so insistent that women under age 18 must have parental >consent >>>>for >>>>an abortion?
>>>As a parent of girls, I cant fathom why you wouldnt want to know that your >>>minor child was having one. I'm insistent because I think parents have a >>>right >>>to know what is going on with their minor child.
>>>>Do you think that if the parents knew, they would convince the woman to >>have >>>>the baby?
>>>Some might, some might not. What's important is that the parents and the >>>child >>>talk and discuss options, not the state deciding what a child should be >>>allowed. I thought you were against the state decidsing personal matters.
>>>> Somehow, that's what I think, Tina. Again, it's >>>>your business as far as your body goes; it's not your business about >>anybody >>>>else's body.
>>>So, you are saying that 10 y/o children should be able to get tattoos? >>>Afterall, its their body, right Eve?
>>>>I saw a mock ad that read as follows: Stop abortions. All women >>>>with unwanted pregnancies can come to the Pro-Life Organizations, where >all >>>>medical, and other bills will be paid and the babies put up for adoption. >>>>Those babies not adopted will be paid for by Pro-Life organizations until >>>age >>>>18. How about that one, Tina. Does that seem like a good use for your >>time >>>>and money?
>>>I think people should pay their own medical bills. Like Laura says, if you >>>are >>>going to do the actions of adult, you should have the responsiblities of an >>>adult. Why do you see that as a problem, Eve?
>>> Tina
>>>We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some >are >>>dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all >>>have >>>to learn to live in the same box.
>>Eve wrote: >>Two reasons, Tina: >>1) As I said in the post you obviously didn't read, my husband and I have >>always made it a >>good thing for our girls to come to us with anything. We are not the kind >of >>parents whose kids say "my parents would kill me...." We have taught our >>girls >>to sit down with us and discuss problems, joys, situations, feelings >(dreaded >>word) or whatever else they wanted to.
>>2) As much as I would like it to be true, all parents are not like my >>husband >>and I. Some are cruel, ignorant, foolish, panicky, inarticulate, etc. Why >>would I insist on forcing something on other girls/boys just because I have >a >>close relationship with my kids and know that each would tell me of any >>problem. As I said to you earlier, you only have the authority to write the >>rules in YOUR book; nobody elses.
>And you answered nothing that I asked.
>WOULD you want your minor daughter to have surgery without your consent?
>Is it ok for a 10 y/o kid to get a tattoo, since it is THEIR body?
> Tina Eve wrote:
Ok, you got me, Tina. 1) No, because I would want to make sure she had the best. And yes, if my kid was so afraid of how her father and I would act. No sense fooling around until the opportunity for options is lost. 2) Tatoos are a non-issue. Due to the nature of the work done, minors must have parental consent. It's the law.
Now would you please have the courtesy to respond to my posts and not simply ask silly questions (ala Bonde) and then get snotty if I tell you I've already answered them. Eve
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant^ >From: Bill Bonde std...@mail.com >Date: 3/2/01 12:46 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <3A9F5DCD.9A431...@mail.com>
>> >Then get off your duff now and convince girls to abstain or >> >at least use birth control.
>> We're doing that but not everyone listens. It will always be >> that way.
>Not everyone listens?
Piggybacking on Bill's reply to Tina
Eve wrote:
Tina, what do you think sex education classes and condom giveaways are for? It's the fundamentalists (of all religions) who are up in arms over that, and trying to stop it. So now you're saying teaching teens how to have safe sex is a good thing? Society has been attempting to control sex and procreation for one reason or another since it began. Not one has had much luck for any length of time. It seems that keeping kids under lock and key and then marrying them off early has probably worked the best. Zero opportunity before marriage. DL insists that nobody is emotionally mature enough to marry until age 27 or 28. Good Grief. Nature makes us able (willing and eager) to have sex and procreate at 13/14. What does one do in those "lost " years? I suggest date a variety of people; have sex when it is appropriate; take care of the birth control; make sure you can live with the one you presumably "love". IOW. Act like an adult. Eve
>>I'd be afraid to tell my mom I was pregnant too, even at my tender young age >>of >>practically 38. That doesn't mean I wouldn't and that doesn't mean I should >>kill my baby either. Wasn't it some great person who said "Face your fears"? >>Dont you think if people are always allowed to scapegoat their behaviors, >>they >>will think they always get to? And no I dont think girls should have to >>"pay" >>for their mistakes, I think they should be taught what the consquences of >>their >>decisions are. Its not like its a secret that if you have sex you could get >>pregnant, right?
>So you're saying it's okay for adults to be afraid, but not teenagers.
I dont recall saying that. I did, however say that people need to face their fears. They dont go away and killing your baby just adds to your misery.
Tina
We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all have to learn to live in the same box.
>Subject: Re: Planned Parenthood Rant >From: tinas49...@aol.com (Tinas49ers) >Date: 3/2/01 3:48 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20010302184833.00322.00000...@ng-fn1.aol.com>
>Ivy wrote: >>ng-mj1.aol.com>
>>>I'd be afraid to tell my mom I was pregnant too, even at my tender young >age >>>of >>>practically 38. That doesn't mean I wouldn't and that doesn't mean I should >>>kill my baby either. Wasn't it some great person who said "Face your >fears"? >>>Dont you think if people are always allowed to scapegoat their behaviors, >>>they >>>will think they always get to? And no I dont think girls should have to >>>"pay" >>>for their mistakes, I think they should be taught what the consquences of >>>their >>>decisions are. Its not like its a secret that if you have sex you could get >>>pregnant, right?
>>So you're saying it's okay for adults to be afraid, but not teenagers.
>I dont recall saying that. I did, however say that people need to face their >fears. They dont go away and killing your baby just adds to your misery.
> Tina
>We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are >dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all >have >to learn to live in the same box. Eve wrote:
That's not exactly true, Tina. If having an illigitimate pregnancy is what you're afraid of, and the life changes that you don't want, then having an abortion is probably going to be your first option. Don't you think? If you don't want the baby; don't know the baby; want to put off having children until you're married, etc., I don't think there are a lot of normal women who are going to go bonkers over having an abortion. Women who got pregnant deliberately for whatever reason, and then wish they hadn't are more likely to feel guilt. Eve
Lucy wrote: >There would be no abortion clinics/practioners if the women weren't there >demanding the service.
Just because there is a demand doesn't make it right. Drugs are in demand. Prostitution is in demand. Do you think these are ok activities?
Tina
We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all have to learn to live in the same box.
Eve wrote: >2) Tatoos are a non-issue. Due to the nature of the work done, minors must >have parental consent. It's the law.
It used to be a law that abortions couldnt happen too, but things were changed. Do you want to see them changed so children can have tattoos...IT IS THEIR BODY!!
>Now would you please have the courtesy to respond to my posts and not simply >ask silly questions (ala Bonde) and then get snotty if I tell you I've >already >answered them
I asked legit questions and you didn't answer them or I wouldn't have to repeat them and I didn't get snotty, I just asked them again, since they weren't answered the first time. I guess you dont like actually answering questions that put you up against the wall.
Tina
We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all have to learn to live in the same box.
In article <20010302190857.00322.00000...@ng-fn1.aol.com>, tinas49...@aol.com says...
> Lucy wrote: > >There would be no abortion clinics/practioners if the women weren't there > >demanding the service.
> Just because there is a demand doesn't make it right. Drugs are in demand. > Prostitution is in demand. Do you think these are ok activities?
Watch my reputation with Tina go down...
Yes, Tina. I think both should be legalized and regulated just as other substances and services are.
Understand that this doesn't mean that I'd patronize either drugs or prostitutes. I just don't think that anything anyone wants to do to _themselves_ should be illegal, up to and including suicide for whatever reason the person may decide to do so.
Call me a libertine...
Jim (whose favorite political book is "Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do") Gray
-- English is what the French look at to strengthen their enthusiasm for the Academie Francaise.
>The one point this woman made that stands, was that our society uses the >concept of "parental consent" on other things.
>Which begs the question..... why would anybody want to flip flop this >standard on this SINGLE issue, when others are as dangerous, morally >reprehensible, politically incorrect..... etc.... both sides have their >issues they want to control.
>As a new parent, I DO expect to have a say in my childs experiences/decsions >when they are under age. >I SHOULD expect that because if they do something that is wrong society will >hold me ultimately accountable if not by the "moralists" on one side then by >the "everybody feel good" crowd on the other.
>Now that you have formed an opinion of me....
>I do believe in Pro-Choice because it leaves it to the individual unlike the >opposing arguement. >BUT >I also believe in personal responsibility.... which starts by facing ones >mistakes before those who matter. In the case of underage children, then it >be Parents.
>For those who don't fall in easily to consent, well I am truely sorry that >life dealt you the bad hand. We all have our cards to play in our own way, >mine are bad enough don't make me play yours.
>If this response is anyway out of character (format) for this group, my >appologies in advance.
Good points, Brad...hope you are brave enough to post again.
Tina
We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all have to learn to live in the same box.
Eve wrote:" >Tina, what do you think sex education classes and condom giveaways are for? >It's the fundamentalists (of all religions) who are up in arms over that, and >trying to stop it. So now you're saying teaching teens how to have safe sex >is >a good thing? Society has been attempting to control sex and procreation for >one reason or another since it began. Not one has had much luck for any >length >of time. It seems that keeping kids under lock and key and then marrying >them >off early has probably worked the best. Zero opportunity before marriage. >DL >insists that nobody is emotionally mature enough to marry until age 27 or 28.
>Good Grief. >Nature makes us able (willing and eager) to have sex and procreate at 13/14. >What does one do in those "lost " years? I suggest date a variety of people; >have sex when it is appropriate; take care of the birth control; make sure >you >can live with the one you presumably "love". IOW. Act like an adult.
Since when do we live life as Laura says? I'm for sex ed, just not how they are doing it now, from what I've heard. Girls dont need to learn how to give oral sex, kids dont need to know about fisting. Geez, I didnt even know what fisting was til I got here. THAT doesnt need to be taught to children. What DOES need to be taught is how our bodies work, what makes a girl pregnant, what to do to avoid pregnancy, the emotional scars that can happen from having sex too early or with the wrong person, how to avoid getting STDs....and thats about it...add more if you can think of something I missed.
Tina
We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all have to learn to live in the same box.
Tinas49ers wrote: > Lucy wrote: > >There would be no abortion clinics/practioners if the women weren't there > >demanding the service.
> Just because there is a demand doesn't make it right. Drugs are in demand. > Prostitution is in demand. Do you think these are ok activities?
> Tina
> We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are > dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors ...but they all have > to learn to live in the same box.
Those are different issues. Please don't change the subject. The question was why don't people who are absolutely opposed to abortion ever place the blame where it really lies, with the women who want the abortions. Perhaps (assuming the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade) abortions should be criminalized, thereby focusing the blame on those women who do not want to carry a fetus to term.
