Book layout via CS2 Indesign
Palmprint
simple book (a novel) using Indesign. It's in 110 x 176 mm format. The
interior is a few pages of copyright and other preamble (without page
numbers), the body of the novel (page numbered starting at 1), then a
few pages of other stuff at the end (without page numbers).
Just a flavour of the things I'm not completely clear on regarding
Indesign are:
- does this need 3 master pages, one each for the begining, middle, and
end?
- how to place the page number for the middle section so that its
exactly centred under the text (I can manually place it approximately
centred - but that doesn't feel quite right)
And a flavour of the general layout issues I'm unsure of:
- what to use for L, R, T, B margins? Are there industry standard
guidelines, etc
- there's no bleed required for the interior because it's just text
without a background, but approx 1/4 inch on all sides of the cover to
allow for trimming?
I'm sure thousands of people have been through this same learning curve
so I'm hoping someone's written it down as an end-to-end process,
perhaps even with templates, all the way to files on a disk for the
printer. If they haven't, then I will when I finally get through
this...
But meanwhile I'd be grateful for all suggestions.
Stella Abzug
"Palmprint" <sa...@palmprint.co.uk> wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a book or tutorial that clarifies how to layout a
> simple book (a novel) using Indesign. It's in 110 x 176 mm format. The
> interior is a few pages of copyright and other preamble (without page
> numbers), the body of the novel (page numbered starting at 1), then a
> few pages of other stuff at the end (without page numbers).
>
An excellent book on the topic is Book Design and Production: A Guide
for Authors and Publishers by Pete Masterson available through
Amazon.com (it will have to be shipped from the U.S.)
> Just a flavour of the things I'm not completely clear on regarding
> Indesign are:
> - does this need 3 master pages, one each for the begining, middle, and
> end?
InDesign is very flexible ... you can apply the "none" master page then
create an individual page as you wish. However, using several master
pages is usually quite helpful.
I usually create a "running headers" master page, a "drop folio" master
page (to be used on pages with a chapter opener or other pages where
running headers aren't appropriate), and other master pages as
necessary. (I should note that I usually place the folios (page numbers)
at the outside, top.)
> - how to place the page number for the middle section so that its
> exactly centred under the text (I can manually place it approximately
> centred - but that doesn't feel quite right)
To center the page numbers, create a text block the width of the text
area of your book. Then create a paragraph style with no indent and
select the "center" alignment. You can do this on a master page and
insert the "auto page number" glyph so that the page numbering will be
taken care of automatically.
>
> And a flavour of the general layout issues I'm unsure of:
> - what to use for L, R, T, B margins? Are there industry standard
> guidelines, etc
There are no exact industry standard, except the general provision that
the bottom margin should be the largest, followed by the _outside_, top,
and inside margins. (Take a look at an image of the Gutenberg Bible to
see an exaggerated example.) The margins do not include folios or
running heads. A running head is placed approximately 1 full line above
the top of the main text block. A folio is placed about 2 to 3 lines
below the bottom of the main text block.
> - there's no bleed required for the interior because it's just text
> without a background, but approx 1/4 inch on all sides of the cover to
> allow for trimming?
Covers are made in one piece (back, spine, and front as you look at the
page). I find it easiest to create a 'landscape' page with the
dimensions of the book and spine. (e.g. a 6 inch by 9 inch book would
have a cover of 12 x 9 inches plus the width of the spine.) Assuming a
spine width of 1/2 inch, then the cover page is 12.5 x 9 inches. 1/8
inch bleed allowance is made in the page setup dialog of InDesign (you
may need to click on the "more" button to show the bleed setting).
Then set the margins to zero and set the columns to "2" with the
"gutter" set to the spine width (1/2 inch). You have now neatly created
a template for laying out the cover. Bring in guide lines to create
margins for text on the front and back cover ... and don't forget to
allow the margins next to the spine! So, if you create a 1/2 inch margin
from an outside edge, drag another guide 1/2 inch from the edge of the
spine. That will keep elements reasonably centered. I usually drag a
guide to the center line of the front/back covers (this is simplified by
moving the 'zero point' to one side of the spine then the other since
spine widths are rarely so evenly measured as in this example).
>
> I'm sure thousands of people have been through this same learning curve
> so I'm hoping someone's written it down as an end-to-end process,
> perhaps even with templates, all the way to files on a disk for the
> printer. If they haven't, then I will when I finally get through
> this...
>
The book mentioned in the first paragraph takes you from finished
manuscript through finding a printer (including the various printing
options you might have). While it was written for the U.S. market, (so
the discussion of the printing Trade Customs only directly applies to
the U.S.) nearly everything in the book applies to most any
English-speaking country (and probably a lot of non-English speaking
countries that use Roman-style alphabets).
Scribe
"Stella Abzug" <ab...@soda.pop.com> wrote in message
news:abzug-003038....@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <1127487672.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "Palmprint" <sa...@palmprint.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend a book or tutorial that clarifies how to layout a
> > simple book (a novel) using Indesign. It's in 110 x 176 mm format. The
> > interior is a few pages of copyright and other preamble (without page
> > numbers), the body of the novel (page numbered starting at 1), then a
> > few pages of other stuff at the end (without page numbers).
> >
>
> An excellent book on the topic is Book Design and Production: A Guide
> for Authors and Publishers by Pete Masterson available through
> Amazon.com (it will have to be shipped from the U.S.)
How old is this book? It doesn't say on Amazon. Is it up on the latest
software? % years old and it could be way out of date, although, the basic
design info would still be relevant.
Stella Abzug
"Scribe" <Scribe...@nospam.com> wrote:
The book was released on August 15 of this year. (Amazon says 6/15, but
that was a target date in the Books In Print database that was missed.)
Look under "Product Details" (for any book) and it will show the
publisher: the publisher name (and date in parenthesis). That date is
the "publication date" of the book.
The book discusses InDesign CS (version 3.x) and, of course, InDesign
CS2 (version 4.x) has been released. However, there is nothing discussed
in the book that has changed between the two InDesign versions that
affect the discussion. (The book is not a tutorial of using InDesign --
some knowledge of how the program works is required. However, it does
discuss specifics of laying out a book and had screen shots, etc. that
help with the process.)
I bought my copy through Amazon marketplace and saved a few dollars on a
copy that had slight shipping damage. (It was very slightly bent.)
Lucas Hyde
ab...@soda.pop.com says...
>
>There are no exact industry standard, except the general provision that
>the bottom margin should be the largest, followed by the _outside_, top,
>and inside margins.
>
That looks fine on hardbacks that fold flat, but it looks rubbish on
paperbacks, and it makes you crease the spine by forcing you to open the book
wider than necessary - which makes it far more awkward to read the book
and keep it looking unread before giving it to someone as a gift. Publishers
today just have no consideration for their customers.
I hate how-to books. I've read loads of them that I borrowed from the library.
They're always the same. They always describe themselves as essential. And
they always seem to be written by someone who was thinking, 'Now. How can I
fill a whole book on this subject?'
As soon as you read one on a subject you know a lot about, you realize how
much of them is filled with just the author's opinion on the subject, and what
he thinks it is reasonable to assume. You never find more than a couple of
useful facts, and then later on you realize those "facts" weren't either as
useful or essential as you supposed and that you pick them up naturally
anyway. You dragged yourself through all that waffle for nothing.
Stella Abzug
lucas...@fsmail.net (Lucas Hyde) wrote:
> In article <abzug-003038....@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
> ab...@soda.pop.com says...
> >
> >There are no exact industry standard, except the general provision that
> >the bottom margin should be the largest, followed by the _outside_, top,
> >and inside margins.
> >
>
> That looks fine on hardbacks that fold flat, but it looks rubbish on
> paperbacks, and it makes you crease the spine by forcing you to open the book
> wider than necessary - which makes it far more awkward to read the book
> and keep it looking unread before giving it to someone as a gift. Publishers
> today just have no consideration for their customers.
>
If done right, it's not a problem. My starting point is a bottom margin
of about 1 inch (adjusted for the line count/leading), outside .875
inch, top .835 inch (not counting running header), inside .75 inch.
Probably 95% of the books I've designed are trade paperback. Not one
causes the reader the need to crease the spine to read the material. One
sign of the amateur book is too-narrow margins and the problem you
describe is common when care is not taken to ensure that the inside
margin is of sufficient width. In rare cases, I've used a 5/8 inch
inside margin... at that is about the least margin possible where spine
creasing doesn't set in.
> I hate how-to books. I've read loads of them that I borrowed from the
> library.
> They're always the same. They always describe themselves as essential. And
> they always seem to be written by someone who was thinking, 'Now. How can I
> fill a whole book on this subject?'
>
My, my. You've now classified _all_ books as being "the same." Somehow,
that seems unlikely.
Of course, _any_ book will be expressing the views and opinions of the
writer. That's what authorship is about. I have a substantial collection
of typography and design books. Each one has a point of view. I agree
with some writers ... and disagree with others. However, whether I agree
or not, simply reading the books and considering the various viewpoints
helps me to better appreciate my own views.
> As soon as you read one on a subject you know a lot about, you realize how
> much of them is filled with just the author's opinion on the subject, and
> what
> he thinks it is reasonable to assume. You never find more than a couple of
> useful facts, and then later on you realize those "facts" weren't either as
> useful or essential as you supposed and that you pick them up naturally
> anyway. You dragged yourself through all that waffle for nothing.
>
I guess there's no point in going to college... or high school.... or
elementary school... you can just learn what you need "naturally."
This hardly seems like an informed opinion for someone participating in
a newsgroup dedicated to publishing.
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
>
> I hate how-to books. I've read loads of them that I borrowed from the library.
> They're always the same. They always describe themselves as essential. And
> they always seem to be written by someone who was thinking, 'Now. How can I
> fill a whole book on this subject?'
>
How could one change this?
One way would be to write a good one.
Why not try it?
--
"Aye, of that Chingis was it said that while he carpeted all Asia
with bones, yet might a virgin with a bag of gold walk the length of his
dominions without harm, so perfect was his governance" - George
MacDonald Fraser, 'The Candlemass Road'
* TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Lucas Hyde
ab...@soda.pop.com says...
>
>> As soon as you read one on a subject you know a lot about, you realize how
>> much of them is filled with just the author's opinion on the subject, and
>> what
>> he thinks it is reasonable to assume. You never find more than a couple of
>> useful facts, and then later on you realize those "facts" weren't either as
>> useful or essential as you supposed and that you pick them up naturally
>> anyway. You dragged yourself through all that waffle for nothing.
>>
>I guess there's no point in going to college... or high school.... or
>elementary school... you can just learn what you need "naturally."
>
>This hardly seems like an informed opinion for someone participating in
>a newsgroup dedicated to publishing.
>
If how-to books were as high quality as the best school textbooks, I would
have no gripe whatsoever. For example, Tom Duncan's 'PHYSICS - a Textbook for
Advanced Level Students' ISBN 0-7195-4336-3 is superb. I kept it from all
those years ago at school, and I still read it.
What I hate about how-to books is that so many of them are unashamed cash-ins.
They are often hardly more than a marketing idea and 300 pages of guff. They
seem to be written by people who want to write a book about something, not by
people who are especially wise about the subject matter.
Of course there are exceptions. I do own at least one how-to book, and it's
very good, but it was written over 50 years ago.
Scribe
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
news:dh4v3l$64j$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Lucas Hyde wrote:
> >
> >
> > I hate how-to books. I've read loads of them that I borrowed from the
library.
> > They're always the same. They always describe themselves as essential.
And
> > they always seem to be written by someone who was thinking, 'Now. How
can I
> > fill a whole book on this subject?'
> >
> You make good points. Most such books are indeed crap.
>
> How could one change this?
>
> One way would be to write a good one.
>
> Why not try it?
But don't title it "How To.....".
Lucas Hyde
>
>Lucas Hyde wrote:
>>
>>
>> I hate how-to books. I've read loads of them that I borrowed from the
library.
>> They're always the same. They always describe themselves as essential. And
>> they always seem to be written by someone who was thinking, 'Now. How can I
>> fill a whole book on this subject?'
>>
>You make good points. Most such books are indeed crap.
>
>How could one change this?
>
>One way would be to write a good one.
>
>Why not try it?
>
I don't just criticize others; I have contributed what I could. I wrote a
novel. I slaved over it for two years and did almost nothing else. When I
wasn't working on it, I was thinking about it. I would go to bed thinking
about it, and I would wake up thinking about it. I didn't go out. I didn't
talk to anybody about what it was about. Nobody could have dedicated
themselves more to a single task.
It may not be the best novel you'll read, but it's the best novel I could
write. I made sure of that.
It's all on the web, and you can read it for free.
http://vibritannia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
But don't feel you should. The only reason to read a novel is because you're
enjoying it. I mean, novels are supposed to be entertaining, aren't they. If
they're not, what's the point?
(Also, if you believe in God, I would advise you to avoid it as well because
it might piss you off - not that it's full of God bashing, it's not. Well if
you read it, you'll see what I mean: irreverent is certainly an applicable
description.)
Scribe
"Lucas Hyde" <lucas...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:dh5q5m$r4n$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Many "How To" books are part of a publishers range. They commision people
to write them on a topic. The writer may not be that well up on the
subject. Those who individually write them, because they do have
information and techniques to pass on, are the better books.
The best How-To book I have read is: How to Publish Your Own Book by Vernon
Coleman. Vernon is a prolific, very successful, self publishing writer on
all topics, selling over 2 million books world-wide. He must turn out 3 or
4 books a year. He is a doctor and writes many books on medical topics.
So, all those down at the mouth self publishers, look at Vernon. His way of
doing things is well worth looking at. Although, you must have the content
to begin with.
He is specific to the UK market, but useful to the US too. He goes into
detail of how to market the book and target buyers by mail shots. He tends
to advertise in mags and newspapers. It was written in 1999, and at the
time he didn't see a big future for the Internet, so no Internet content, or
POD either. He does now have a web site, so may have changed that view.
However, he gives all the buzzwords to use when speaking to printers and
bargaining advertising space in mags. He gives details of results of
adertising shots and how to use PO box numbers to deternine how a mag or
newpaper sells a book. He even tells you how to deal with radio stations
who tell you not to mention your new book on air.
A very good book indeed.
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/
Lucas Hyde
Scribe...@nospam.com says...
There are a lot of books in the bookshop on his site, but not that one. (Well
I couldn't see it.) On amazon.uk, it's only available used, for £50 ! PASS.
I looked at some of the other books on his site and what did I find?
'Confronting the Global Bully' and 'Rogue Nation'.
Oh great. Another Yank basher.
Since the USA is regarded as the richest and most powerful country in the
world, there is always going to be a tendency for envy from people who don't
live there. It's a human failing. But envy is a source of evil. When we spot
it in ourselves, we should try to overcome it. We certainly shouldn't pander
to the vindictiveness that results from it. It appears to me that Vernon
Coleman is a rabble rouser.
I remember from history a man who exploited people's envy of a people who were
perceived as better off than the rest. The people were the Jews, and the man
was Hitler.
Scribe
> In article <43367aec$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
> Scribe...@nospam.com says...
> >
> >A very good book indeed.
> >http://www.vernoncoleman.com/
>
> There are a lot of books in the bookshop on his site, but not that one.
(Well
> I couldn't see it.) On amazon.uk, it's only available used, for £50 !
PASS.
It was about £9 new a few years back. Contact them they may have one or two
available. In fact he would be better having this book on POD, you might
want to suggest that. Low sales but available and no stock to keep.
Although he has a barn to keep all his stock, low print runs are expensive
and take up space.
One point he dealt with is the letters from lawyers. When he published
books the opposition would get lawyers to attempt you to stop publishing on
ridiculous points. The small self publisher may be put off by this and stop
the book. Dirty game.
> I looked at some of the other books on his site and what did I find?
> 'Confronting the Global Bully' and 'Rogue Nation'.
>
> Oh great. Another Yank basher.
>
> Since the USA is regarded as the richest and most powerful country in the
> world, there is always going to be a tendency for envy from people who
don't
> live there. It's a human failing. But envy is a source of evil.
No. Jealousy is source of evil, not envy.
> When we spot
> it in ourselves, we should try to overcome it. We certainly shouldn't
pander
> to the vindictiveness that results from it. It appears to me that Vernon
> Coleman is a rabble rouser.
He writes on many topics: novels, How to books, political, etc.
What he says about 'Rogue Nation':
America is a real and present danger; a very real and very serious threat to
world peace. America has the biggest stocks of weapons of mass destruction -
and is the nation most likely to use those weapons. America is a rogue
nation, bullying its way into authority and power; unsettling other
countries and constantly starting wars. America is responsible for worldwide
economic and political chaos. This book contains everything you need to
know - and must know - about America.
Sounds like Michael Moore to me, and a valid view and one which many
Americans would side with. I have only ever read one of Vernon's books. But
he does know how to self publish with over 2 million books sold world-wide,
and worth taking note of how he does it. Well it looks like I have a rare
gem of a book then. His book complimented by one about POD and selling on
the web and one on book design would be the complete set.
He did say at the beginning that friends were asking him why he was telling
people all his secrets in his book - a book he didn't need to write as he
has many publications. He didn't market it well and I came across it by
accident. He may be doing an update with POD and the web added, worth
checking out.
> I remember from history a man who exploited people's envy of a people who
were
> perceived as better off than the rest. The people were the Jews, and the
man
> was Hitler.
You are stretching it a little here. :-)
Lucas Hyde
Scribe...@nospam.com says...
>
>You are stretching it a little here. :-)
>
I just get totally carried away. I can't help myself. I'm even worse when I've
had a drink. I talk some right bollocks.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> In article <43367aec$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
> Scribe...@nospam.com says...
>
> Since the USA is regarded as the richest and most powerful country in the
> world, there is always going to be a tendency for envy from people who don't
> live there.
>
many time and have been delighted to leave it each time. I only go there
if people pay me lots of money too and I tend to turn down most offers
even then.
I can see that somebody who knows nothing about it might wish to go
there, and there are some pretty geographical sites still left - and it
is better than Ethiopia, sans doubt.
If you want to learn why people don't like Yankland, you're going to
have to try a bit harder than pretending that it is envy!
Of course you probably don't want to learn or understand. So, why not
believe that other people are just stupid and evil? Wouldn't that be
easier to swallow than the idea of envy?
--
Time comes from the future, which does not yet exist, into the
present, which has no duration, and goes into the past, which has ceased
to exist. - St. Augustine
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Lucas Hyde" <lucas...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
> news:dh5q5m$r4n$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> who tell you not to mention your new book on air.
>
--
I should many a good day, have blown my brains out, but for the
recollection that it would have given pleasure to my mother-in-law - Byron
Scribe
> Scribe wrote:
> > "Lucas Hyde" <lucas...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
> > news:dh5q5m$r4n$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > He even tells you how to deal with radio stations
> > who tell you not to mention your new book on air.
> >
> I might get it. How do you deal with them, out of interest?
I'll dig out the book and report more in detail.
Scribe
> Lucas Hyde wrote:
> > In article <43367aec$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
> > Scribe...@nospam.com says...
> > .
> >
> > Since the USA is regarded as the richest and most powerful country in
the
> > world, there is always going to be a tendency for envy from people who
don't
> > live there.
> >
> Envy??? Envy? WTF is there to envy there? I've visited the place far too
> many time and have been delighted to leave it each time. I only go there
> if people pay me lots of money too and I tend to turn down most offers
> even then.
>
> I can see that somebody who knows nothing about it might wish to go
> there, and there are some pretty geographical sites still left - and it
> is better than Ethiopia, sans doubt.
>
> If you want to learn why people don't like Yankland, you're going to
> have to try a bit harder than pretending that it is envy!
>
> Of course you probably don't want to learn or understand. So, why not
> believe that other people are just stupid and evil? Wouldn't that be
> easier to swallow than the idea of envy?
I have also been to the USA many times, on holiday and working there. I
don't share your view. I was followed down the street in Chicago by man
with gun in his hand. Coming from a country were policemen don't even carry
guns it was an eye opener.
At least they can afford decent sized homes which most people in the rip-off
UK can only dream of.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> news:dh6gom$hhq$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net..
>
> don't share your view. I was followed down the street in Chicago by man
> with gun in his hand. Coming from a country were policemen don't even carry
> guns it was an eye opener.
>
> At least they can afford decent sized homes which most people in the rip-off
> UK can only dream of.
>
ridiculous over the past ten years!
It is, however, a tiny country, geographically, with a large population,
so property cannot be anything other than expensive.
--
The creed which accepts as the foundation of morals, Utility, or the
Greatest Happiness Principle, holds that actions are right in proportion
as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the
reverse of happiness. -- J.S.Mill Chapter II, Utilitarianism
Scribe
> Scribe wrote:
> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:dh6gom$hhq$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net..
> >
> > I have also been to the USA many times, on holiday and working there. I
> > don't share your view. I was followed down the street in Chicago by man
> > with gun in his hand. Coming from a country were policemen don't even
carry
> > guns it was an eye opener.
> >
> > At least they can afford decent sized homes which most people in the
rip-off
> > UK can only dream of.
> >
> Yes, the UK is a rip-off - certainly the tax rates have become
> ridiculous over the past ten years!
>
> It is, however, a tiny country, geographically,
> with a large population,
> so property cannot be anything other
> than expensive.
The UK is "not" small!!!! Only just over 7% of the country is built on. The
countryside is empty of buildings and people. The planning system will not
allow us to build in the countryside creating an artificial shortage. Over
55 million of us crammed into just over 7% of the land mass. The USA doe
not do such silly things, they allow the land to serve the people, not allow
large, mainly aristocratic, landowners serve themselves at the people's
expense - 0.66% of the population own 70% of the land. Aspects of the UK
are like a banana republic. Most British people I have met went to live in
the US, Canada, Australia, NZ or South Africa went to get a decent house -
the prime reason.
Stella Abzug
"Scribe" <Scribe...@nospam.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, the U.S. suffers from the same planning stupidity. An
unholy alliance of "nimbys*", environmentalists, and "no growthers" have
come together to block development.
The NIMBY group simply doesn't want new development 'near' their homes.
Environmentalists don't want any development. (Recently, an "endangered"
plant was found on a property where development was planned ...
fortunately (for the developer) it was easily ascertained that it had
been transplanted to the development site.) "No Growth" advocates feel
that their towns are "big enough" and work to block any development,
both residential and commercial.
The county I live in (I live near San Francisco) has thousands of acres
set aside as a "green belt" --- that cover about 1/3 of the county. Much
of this land is unsuitable for agriculture. Some of it is too steep or
too unstable for development, but most could be developed into housing
without serious degradation to the environment. The result of the
numerous restrictions is that housing in the San Francisco Bay Area is
among the most expensive in the U.S. A modest 3 bedroom/2 bath home
(pretty much a U.S. standard) --- that might sell for $140,000 in
Kansas, sells for $600,000 here. Meanwhile other activists complain
about the lack of "affordable housing" and want to come up with various
expensive tax funded social programs ... when the restricted land could
simply be made available for development and overall housing costs would
come down. Unfortunately, emotion usually wins out over logic.
*NIMBY=Not In My BackYard
Scribe
> In article <43367aec$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
> Scribe...@nospam.com says...
> >
> >A very good book indeed.
> >http://www.vernoncoleman.com/
> >
>
> There are a lot of books in the bookshop on his site, but not that one.
(Well
> I couldn't see it.) On amazon.uk, it's only available used, for £50 !
PASS.
The book is available used for $20 on amazon.com (USA)
Scribe
> > The UK is "not" small!!!! Only just over 7%
> > of the country is built on. The
> > countryside is empty of buildings and
> > people. The planning system will not
> > allow us to build in the countryside creating
> > an artificial shortage. Over
> > 55 million of us crammed into just over 7%
> > of the land mass. The USA doe
> > not do such silly things, they allow the land
> > to serve the people, not allow
> > large, mainly aristocratic, landowners serve
> > themselves at the people's
> > expense - 0.66% of the population own
> > 70% of the land. Aspects of the UK
> > are like a banana republic. Most British
> > people I have met many who went to live in
> > the US, Canada, Australia, NZ or South
> > Africa went to get a decent house -
> > the prime reason.
>
> Unfortunately, the U.S. suffers from the
> same planning stupidity. An
> unholy alliance of "nimbys*", environmentalists,
> and "no growthers" have
> come together to block development.
That is mainly for a perceived good. In the UK is clearly for the good of
vested interest. We get screwed big time by a land owning, mainly
aristocratic few. Large landowners here fund eco groups to keep people out
of the countryside. Some eco groups are fronts.
> The NIMBY group simply doesn't want new development 'near' their homes.
> Environmentalists don't want any development. (Recently, an "endangered"
> plant was found on a property where development was planned ...
> fortunately (for the developer) it was easily ascertained that it had
> been transplanted to the development site.) "No Growth" advocates feel
> that their towns are "big enough" and work to block any development,
> both residential and commercial.
>
> The county I live in (I live near San Francisco) has thousands of acres
> set aside as a "green belt" --- that cover about 1/3 of the county. Much
> of this land is unsuitable for agriculture. Some of it is too steep or
> too unstable for development, but most could be developed into housing
> without serious degradation to the environment. The result of the
> numerous restrictions is that housing in the San Francisco Bay Area is
> among the most expensive in the U.S. A modest 3 bedroom/2 bath home
> (pretty much a U.S. standard) --- that might sell for $140,000 in
> Kansas, sells for $600,000 here.
But your houses are "much" bigger than ours. My house is 3 bed, 1 bath and
a shower room, not around a major city and is worth about $450,000.
Probably about the same as yours if you take into account the house and plot
size. Get to London and it is silly money. My sisters house is 4 bed 2
bath and worth £1 million - quite common.
> Meanwhile other activists complain
> about the lack of "affordable housing" and want to come up with various
> expensive tax funded social programs ... when the restricted land could
> simply be made available for development and overall housing costs would
> come down. Unfortunately, emotion usually wins out over logic.
The same here. We pay for subsided housing out of taxpayers money, when the
private sector could fill any housing gap if they were given enough land.to
build on. I can think of better ways to spend tax money. We pay farmers
and land owners not to grow food and keep land idle, when this could be used
for housing. A double whammy of tax money wasting. The French have
centralised planning, you can build almost anywhere as long as the local
community agrees. You even see new houses being built high in the Alps.
Yet France is about the prettiest country around. It has not affected the
look of the countryside and they insist that new homes conform to the
regions local vernacular. It works very well. 1000s of British have moved
there because housing is cheap, bigger and better quality. Houses here are
built cheaply to keep the price down, as land accounts for aprox 2/3 of the
house value of the average house. Off the scale in London.
The Green belt was a British idea, which creates a wasteland around cities.
If this land was left wild and open for all to access I wouldn't mind. It
is privately owned and usually farmland with no public access. GM stopped
making cars in Luton, taking production elsewhere because they could not
expand the plant because of green belt. 1000s of people lost their jobs and
the knock on effect too. Shooting ourselves in the foot.
Where you are things may be bad, but over the US as whole that is not the
case. If the situation around your way is not stopped ASAP, the situation
will be irreversible. Homeowners see the high value of their homes and will
fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo, while taxpayers money funds
social housing. The rich then are being subsidised.
Kevin Cahill, an investigative researcher, wrote a book, which took him 14
years, titled Who Owns Britain. It took 14 years to write because the land
owning rich want to hide their worth from others - we are not an open
society. Many of these families acquired the land as gifts by the Norman
conquerors after 1066 (yes that long ago) for collaborating with them. The
bulk of the land being in the hands of the few was the cause of the Irish
famine which killed about a million and caused the large Irish influx into
the USA - about 25 people owned the lot. The UK is the only major country
that has not redistributed land. Most others have in some way. Land in the
UK is waiting time bomb. See Kevin Cahill's book on Amazon.co.uk. The
reviews give a good background.
http://tinyurl.com/dg9c4
> *NIMBY=Not In My BackYard
Scribe
"Stella Abzug" <ab...@soda.pop.com> wrote in message
news:abzug-F343B3....@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > Most British
> > people I have met many who went to live in
> > the US, Canada, Australia, NZ or South
> > Africa went to get a decent house -
> > the prime reason.
>
> Unfortunately, the U.S. suffers from the
> same planning stupidity. An
> unholy alliance of "nimbys*", environmentalists,
> and "no growthers" have
> come together to block development.
That is mainly for a perceived good. In the UK is clearly for the good of
vested interest. We get screwed big time by a land owning, mainly
aristocratic few. Large landowners here fund eco groups to keep people out
of the countryside. Some eco groups are fronts.
> The NIMBY group simply doesn't want new development 'near' their homes.
> Environmentalists don't want any development.
> The result of the
Lucas Hyde
>
>Envy??? Envy? WTF is there to envy there? I've visited the place far too
>many time and have been delighted to leave it each time. I only go there
>if people pay me lots of money too and I tend to turn down most offers
>even then.
>
>I can see that somebody who knows nothing about it might wish to go
>there, and there are some pretty geographical sites still left - and it
>is better than Ethiopia, sans doubt.
>
>If you want to learn why people don't like Yankland, you're going to
>have to try a bit harder than pretending that it is envy!
>
>Of course you probably don't want to learn or understand. So, why not
>believe that other people are just stupid and evil? Wouldn't that be
>easier to swallow than the idea of envy?
>
If someone is vindictive towards another country (or anybody at all), he will
seek to rationalize those feelings. It is only natural. Nobody thinks of
himself as an evil person.
Have you noticed how when somebody in the public eye makes a slip, there are
always people who leap up to stick the knife in. What do you think the root of
their motivation is? I think people's envy explains a lot.
Haven't you ever been treated badly by someone and been unable to work out
why, even though you thought about it over and over? Couldn't it have been
that they were envious of you for some reason?
Crap. What has this got to do with publishing.
Scribe
They could be just plain arseholes. I have met a lot of those of all
nationalities. BTW, the biggest con-artist I have come across are South
Africans.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Lucas Hyde" <lucas...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
> news:dh8ga2$9fa$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>>why, even though you thought about it over and over? Couldn't it have been
>>that they were envious of you for some reason?
>
> They could be just plain arseholes.
>
to imagine than trying to establish the truth of the matter. It is much
more convincing than the ridiculous idea of envy!
Of course, anybody intelligent encountering this discussion might wish
to look for the real reasons. This is not, though, about publishing,
which doesn't require much analytical ability, so there is no need to
follow it further.
>
> BTW, the biggest con-artist I have come across are South
> Africans.
>
You clearly haven't met any Nigerians then.
--
I should many a good day, have blown my brains out, but for the
recollection that it would have given pleasure to my mother-in-law - Byron
Scribe
> Scribe wrote:
> > "Lucas Hyde" <lucas...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
> > news:dh8ga2$9fa$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >>Haven't you ever been treated badly by someone and been unable to work
out
> >>why, even though you thought about it over and over? Couldn't it have
been
> >>that they were envious of you for some reason?
> >
> > They could be just plain arseholes.
> >
> As I said before, if you have a simple mind, that is a much easier thing
> to imagine than trying to establish the truth of the matter. It is much
> more convincing than the ridiculous idea of envy!
>
> Of course, anybody intelligent encountering this discussion might wish
> to look for the real reasons. This is not, though, about publishing,
> which doesn't require much analytical ability, so there is no need to
> follow it further.
> >
> > BTW, the biggest con-artist I have come across are South
> > Africans.
> >
> You clearly haven't met any Nigerians then.
Probably the wrong attitude to have, but I just don't deal with West
Africans. As bent as $9 bills.
Peter H.M. Brooks
Nigerians are certainly a very bad lot. People from Bangui in the
Central African Republic are also known to be untrustworthy - it is
called the 'thieves capital of Africa'.
John Culleton
I can only speak for the books on my short list. I read them all and offer
my opinion on each. Most of them are on my bookshelf in arms reach of
myself seated at the computer. When it comes to books by Masterson, the
Rosses, Poynter, Reiss, Horowitz, Hemmerly I can state positively that each
is well worth the money to buy the book and the time spent to read it. The
e-book by Levy, _the Fine Print_ contains data not found elsewhere and is
needed if you plan on publishing an e-book or using a subsidy publisher.
There is the old witticism: "All generalizations are false, including this
one." Yes, I have read for review many howto books that are of marginal
value. But the publishing books I list in the first section of the short
list are very strong and again well worth the money.
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf
--
John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters
Michael A. Cleverly
> They could be just plain arseholes. I have met a lot of those of all
> nationalities. BTW, the biggest con-artist I have come across are South
> Africans.
Never met any in person, but based on emails I've received over the years
I'd have to say Nigerians are quite good at the art of the con. ;-)
Scribe
"Michael A. Cleverly" <mic...@cleverly.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSX.4.60.05...@powerbook.cleverly.com...
I know of and met a few South Africans (white) who are just plain
fraudsters. I avoid them. Nigerians are just way off the scale.
Palmprint
>
> An excellent book on the topic is Book Design and Production: A Guide
> for Authors and Publishers by Pete Masterson available through
> Amazon.com (it will have to be shipped from the U.S.)
Many thanks for the recommendation. It was going to take too long to
get to the UK to meet my crazy schedule but for good measure I'll pick
up a copy when I next order from amazon.com. It does seem a bit pricy
though, especially since amazon doesn't discount it. (our titles, and
various other small publisher titles, lost their amazon.com discount
early this summer so maybe this book has suffered the same handicap. I
wonder if it's also supplied through the Amazon Disadvantage scheme?)
> InDesign is very flexible ... you can apply the "none" master page then
> create an individual page as you wish. However, using several master
> pages is usually quite helpful.
>
> I usually create a "running headers" master page, a "drop folio" master
> page (to be used on pages with a chapter opener or other pages where
> running headers aren't appropriate), and other master pages as
> necessary. (I should note that I usually place the folios (page numbers)
> at the outside, top.)
>
> To center the page numbers, create a text block the width of the text
> area of your book. Then create a paragraph style with no indent and
> select the "center" alignment. You can do this on a master page and
> insert the "auto page number" glyph so that the page numbering will be
> taken care of automatically.
>
> There are no exact industry standard, except the general provision that
> the bottom margin should be the largest, followed by the _outside_, top,
> and inside margins. The margins do not include folios or
> running heads. A running head is placed approximately 1 full line above
> the top of the main text block. A folio is placed about 2 to 3 lines
> below the bottom of the main text block.
Thanks also for this advice, especially the page number centering. I
eventually settled on the extremely simple method of creating:
New Document
1 page
Facing Pages
Master Text Frame
W:110mm, H:176mm, Portrait
1 column
Top margin: 12mm, Bottom: 15, Inner: 14, Outer: 9
Bleed: all 0
Then it was simply a matter of:
- Placing a Word document to autoflow the entire book, resulting in
about 310 pages.
- Reduced the font size to fit my required book extent (288 pages),
along with a few hours fiddling about with some special sections of
text (eg. diary entries)
- Setup page number text frame within bottom margin on the sole master
page thus page numbering the whole book. Used [None] to suppress page
number on first and last few pages, then set page numbering to start at
1 on the first page of proper text.
- About a day sorting widows/orphans.
- Deleted the few now blank pages at the end caused by reducing the
font size.
- Done!
So InDesign was really easy to use for my purpose and seems to have a
wealth of facilities (that I'll probably never need). My only gripes
are that it's a bit expensive - especially in ripoff Britain - and I'm
surprised/disappointed that they don't include much more & much better
documentation, idiot tutorials and how-to's with it. Frankly at that
price they could easily afford to include decent printed manuals.
I'm sure to buy some proper documentation for it when I have time and
it'll more than pay for itself after doing just a few books.
> Covers are made in one piece (back, spine, and front as you look at the
> page). I find it easiest to create a 'landscape' page with the
> dimensions of the book and spine. (e.g. a 6 inch by 9 inch book would
> have a cover of 12 x 9 inches plus the width of the spine.) Assuming a
> spine width of 1/2 inch, then the cover page is 12.5 x 9 inches. 1/8
> inch bleed allowance is made in the page setup dialog of InDesign (you
> may need to click on the "more" button to show the bleed setting).
>
> Then set the margins to zero and set the columns to "2" with the
> "gutter" set to the spine width (1/2 inch). You have now neatly created
> a template for laying out the cover. Bring in guide lines to create
> margins for text on the front and back cover ... and don't forget to
> allow the margins next to the spine! So, if you create a 1/2 inch margin
> from an outside edge, drag another guide 1/2 inch from the edge of the
> spine. That will keep elements reasonably centered. I usually drag a
> guide to the center line of the front/back covers (this is simplified by
> moving the 'zero point' to one side of the spine then the other since
> spine widths are rarely so evenly measured as in this example).
>
This is pretty much what I did for the cover and everything turned out
fine. I may end up reconstituting the entire cover when I find out the
actual spine width but it won't take much time to do.
I'm just left with generating a barcode, generate the PDF files, double
check everything and get it off to the printer by the end of next week
... then probably to be told of some huge flaw in the approach I've
taken!
Again, many thanks.
Stella Abzug
"Palmprint" <sa...@palmprint.co.uk> wrote:
> Stella Abzug wrote:
> >
> > An excellent book on the topic is Book Design and Production: A Guide
> > for Authors and Publishers by Pete Masterson available through
> > Amazon.com (it will have to be shipped from the U.S.)
>
> Many thanks for the recommendation. It was going to take too long to
> get to the UK to meet my crazy schedule but for good measure I'll pick
> up a copy when I next order from amazon.com. It does seem a bit pricy
> though, especially since amazon doesn't discount it. (our titles, and
> various other small publisher titles, lost their amazon.com discount
> early this summer so maybe this book has suffered the same handicap. I
> wonder if it's also supplied through the Amazon Disadvantage scheme?)
>
It's well worth the price as there's more information in the large
format book (7-3/4 x 10-7/8 inches, 320 pages) than most books. I notice
that the publisher (published by Aeonix Publishing Group, marketplace
seller "Aeonix1") offers copies through Amazon Marketplace 'slight
shipping damage" at about a 25% discount.
<snip>>
> So InDesign was really easy to use for my purpose and seems to have a
> wealth of facilities (that I'll probably never need). My only gripes
> are that it's a bit expensive - especially in ripoff Britain - and I'm
> surprised/disappointed that they don't include much more & much better
> documentation, idiot tutorials and how-to's with it. Frankly at that
> price they could easily afford to include decent printed manuals.
>
Didn't realize that it doesn't come with printed manuals anymore. When I
got my first version ... and upgrades to ID 2.x there were nice manuals.
The upgrade to CS2 didn't come with a manual (of course it had
Photoshop, Illustrator, and ID -- that's a lot of paper to put in the
box) I was told that "upgrades" don't include printed manuals but you
can buy the set (all programs in the CS) for $49.00 plus shipping.
So, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they skimp on printed manuals
with the "full" version as well.
<snip>> ... then probably to be told of some huge flaw in the approach
I've
> taken!
>
> Again, many thanks.
>
Your description sounds fairly reasonable -- so long as you don't have
any PostScript errors, you'll be ok.
Scribe
> In article <43367aec$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
> Scribe...@nospam.com says...
> >
> >A very good book indeed.
> >http://www.vernoncoleman.com/
>
> There are a lot of books in the bookshop on his site, but not that one.
(Well
> I couldn't see it.) On amazon.uk, it's only available used, for £50 !
PASS.
The out of print How to Publish your Own Book by Vernon Coleman is still
available. Get in touch with the add on the web site. They found a box of
them. The book is to be totally rewritten. Publish date? The book is only
being planned at the mo'.
Palmprint
Scribe wrote:
> The out of print How to Publish your Own Book by Vernon Coleman is still
> available.
I bought this book in 1999, and was disappointed when it arrived. It
doesn't cover any of the technical aspects of book design or production
... or much of anything especially useful. My memory is mainly that it
wittered on and on about fine-tuning of advertising copy to maximize
mail order sales - I was scammed into buying it so I guess he's ok on
disingenuous sales pitches.
Scribe
"Palmprint" <sa...@palmprint.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1128596513....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I thought it fine, not 100% coverage of all aspects, but highly successful
way to sell books. He went on about how the book industry works - if you
don't know it is a good point. And valid points. like when you get a
lawyers letter attempting to prevent you from publishing, from competitors,
etc. He covered all the mine fields of self publishing and importantly how
to sell the thing. How do you know which publication you advertise in is
selling your book - use different PO Box numbers for different mags, simple.
He mentioned points like the title of books and how some titles gave a
negative effect. Pricing too. In 1999 he did not rate the Internet for
selling, and I'm sure he has changed his mind on that. POD was not heard of
then either. The mail order aspect, which was very good, and also how to
negotiate cheap magazine advertising space, with the correct buzz words to
use. Niche books have to be advertised in specialist mags. Plumbing books
are best advertised in specialist plumbing mags, etc. All stuff I have
only read from him. How is a self publisher going to sell the book? An
Amazon listing will not. The Internet sells, but it still has a long way to
go.
Book design and layout is a separate field in itself, and Coleman tended to
leave a lot of the layout to his printers, who would bend over backwards as
he has sold over 2 million books - so, he must be doing something very right
somewhere.
Stella Abzug
"Scribe" <Scribe...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Palmprint" <sa...@palmprint.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1128596513....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Scribe wrote:
> > > The out of print How to Publish your Own Book by Vernon Coleman is still
> > > available.
> >
> > I bought this book in 1999, and was disappointed when it arrived. It
> > doesn't cover any of the technical aspects of book design or production
> > ... or much of anything especially useful. My memory is mainly that it
> > wittered on and on about fine-tuning of advertising copy to maximize
> > mail order sales - I was scammed into buying it so I guess he's ok on
> > disingenuous sales pitches.
>
> I thought it fine, not 100% coverage of all aspects, but highly successful
> way to sell books. <snip>
> Book design and layout is a separate field in itself, and Coleman tended to
> leave a lot of the layout to his printers, who would bend over backwards as
> he has sold over 2 million books - so, he must be doing something very right
> somewhere.
>
>
If you're interested in the design aspect, check out Book Design and
Production: A Guide for Authors and Publishers by Pete Masterson. It was
released in August of this year and is quite up to date. See
http://www.aeonix.com or get it from Amazon.com (I see some "used"
copies for about 25% off the list price of $29.95 US.)
This 320 page book has a 97 page glossary, specific chapters on InDesign
and Word along with general information about the book production
process.
Scribe
It's already on the way. ;-)
Scribe
"Scribe" <Scribe...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4345a152$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
I have just received this book about 1/4 hour ago. It is about book design.
The first impressions are with reading any of it: The side and bottom
margins are too wide and the type font should be the next size up - it is
too small. The print colour is more on the grey side than black - a more
blacker colour would be better. Some of the paragraphs appear to be
excessively long. Not a very good first impression. The cover looks
attractive and professional enough, and one way to make the book look more
professional is the cover I suppose. But if the book is being sold via the
mail, does it matter that much? Is a white cover the best as any little
rips in production or transport are not seen.
@nospamnetspace.net.au Gordon Woolf
wrote:
>I have just received this book about 1/4 hour ago. It is about book design.
>The first impressions are with reading any of it: The side and bottom
>margins are too wide and the type font should be the next size up - it is
>too small. The print colour is more on the grey side than black - a more
>blacker colour would be better. Some of the paragraphs appear to be
>excessively long. Not a very good first impression.
I happen to also think that Pete did not make all the best of design
choices within his book on Book Design. But he'd also find fault with
my books. But we'd be arguing about finer points... the difference
that MAY just occasionally mean some book buyer somewhere will decide
against one book and for another on some nebulous impression that is
unrelated to content.
Sitting in mid-read or ready-to-be-read at home at present I can see
books with faults such as one with colored background panels including
a few with black type on purple tints, one with too-wide columns, one
with wide inner margins and very narrow outer ones, one with a
too-light font, another with chapter heads difficult to read, one with
set-left type and nothing to indicate what is a paragraph, one with no
chapter titles in running heads (making it difficult to find
sections), one with almost impossible-to-read page numbers.
Yet none of these problems *on their own* would stop me buying such a
book and indeed some of them are from top publishers. However, it does
happen that new would-be publishers may look at each of these bad
points and think that they are OK because they are done in that book.
What Pete offers is the explanation of what works, why it works and
why such design has become the standard for book design. Of course the
rules can be broken, but please break them after finding out what they
are and then do it deliberately in the knowledge of why they are being
broken. In other words, Book Design and Production remains essential
reading.
Then Pete, myself and others can return to our enjoyable arguments on
whether that line is a pica too wide, that font a half a point too
big, that margin a quarter-inch too little, that the page number
should be top outer or bottom centre... and all the other things
which, while they could make a difference, will not be the choices by
which a book lives or dies.
Gordon Woolf
gcwnet.net
Scribe
"Gordon Woolf" <gwoolf @ nospamnetspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:j13hk1tkk3uc31esr...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:03:46 +0100, "Scribe" <Scribe...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have just received this book about
> >1/4 hour ago. It is about book design.
> > The first impressions are with reading
> > any of it: The side and bottom
> > margins are too wide and the type font
> > should be the next size up - it is
> > too small. The print colour is more on
> > the grey side than black - a more
> > blacker colour would be better. Some
> > of the paragraphs appear to be
> > excessively long. Not a very good first
> > impression.
>
> I happen to also think that Pete did not make
> all the best of design choices within his book
> on Book Design.
You said it. There should be more spaces between headings as the text
appears bunched up. Paragraphs at time are way too long. On the first page
of the introduction there is fault right there. The bullets are indented
(why?), then instead of the text wrapping around on the next line to the
start at the first letter after the bullet, it wraps right back to the
gutter margin making it look very amateurish, yet on some pages this is not
the case.
A book on book design should be well designed otherwise who is going to take
this man seriously - I so far do not. I advise people to pick a book that
they like the layout of and copy that. Then get yourself a tutorial book on
the book publishing software you are using and a good How to Self Publish
book. A book like this adds little value. Underwhelmed so far.
> But he'd also find fault with
> my books.
But this is a book on "book design"., which is such a poorly designed book.
You expect it to be at least on par with the average.
> What Pete offers is the explanation
> of what works, why it works and
> why such design has become the
> standard for book design.
He should practice what he preaches.
> Of course the rules can be broken,
Or just plain neglected here.
> In other words, Book Design and Production
> remains essential reading.
I still remain to be convinced.