Lets see who else can write poetry
Ian James Percival
Nice poem Kandace, How about...
We came then
The last children
Daughters of light and darkness
Sons of death
We sought your presence on the wild hills of the North
But in the loneliness
We found you not
We sought your presence in the light of the East
But in the mists of dawn
We discerned you not
We sought your presence beneath the sun of the South
But where shadows shrink
We could not see your face
We sought your presence where the wind sleeps in the West
But in the silence
we did not hear your voice
O mother of mystery
Child of my vision and daughter of my dream
Long have I sought you my souls sister
Thou goal of my desire
When passion sleeps
I longed for thee
Where death was near
I pined for thee
And when the hot breath of the hound was upon my heel
I longed for that last consummation
Surrender, death and ecstasy are all thy gifts
I am the eagle which soars for thee beneath the Sun
I am the hare which leaps for thee beneath the Moon
I am the fish which glistens for thee beneath the water
And when at last
In the dark beneath the trees
In a tremor of stillness I felt your hand upon me
I new no other God nor Goddess too
For all was you
rom carpathian
really liked the others i read. I'm always on the 'Net lookout for spots
to share poetry: what better place to do it than at a virtual coffeehouse?
a cold night's warm muse
the muse is such a gentle being;
she haunts, she sings,
she tells us everything is ok.
i want to marry my muse,
to touch her and feel her
soft breath on my neck.
alas, she is fleeting!
like a stranger out of a cold winter's night,
she emerges from the unconscious earth
to tell her story.
she warms herself at the hearth
of the roadside inn of life, but never tallies.
her conversation is measured,
her wisdom achingly brief, always leaving
the poet-human yearning for more.
all too quickly she utters "sai la vie" and
opens the world portal. a few daemons slip
in from the chill as she re-members herself
to the evil. the winds of forgetfulness moan
on the eves, grappling with the fires of consciousness
which burn in our haven of artistic soul.
i watch her leave, saddened yet buoyed
by her visit. for you see, i am a bard, a wandering
minstrel of soul. my life journey is that of the muse.
we always seem to choose the same haven.
i have come to have faith that when i am in need,
she will appear, and trust in me her latest tale,
as we share in the glowing fires of creation.
rom carpathian
2/9/95
In article <3hg660$4...@hippo.shef.ac.uk>, I.J.Pe...@Sheffield.ac.uk
(Ian James Percival) wrote:
--
Romany
Skatha
so _spooky_."
My mother spoke to me once of an old
prophecy made about the end of the
world. "The
end would come," she said to me, "When the trees died
from the tops down, and an
eagle flew to the
moon." She then went on to remind me how
acid rain now kills the trees
from the tops down. And when we made our
first trip to the
moon, the first thing they said was,
"The Eagle has landed."
----Skatha
(jepe...@students.wisc.edu)
"I dream in Technicolor!"
Surreality is your friend.
And so is Bob.
"He's no fun, he fell right over!" - The Giant Rat Of Sumatra
rom carpathian
jepe...@students.wisc.edu (Skatha) wrote:
It is spooky, yet wonderfully said. It has a native American sense about
it; a respect for the earth (or at least a call for respect). It fuses
technology with myth, something i am trying to do in my studies. I loved
it!
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
(Alan Flesch) wrote:
> "Not my best work -- it was rushed..."
>
>
> Stillness
> ---------------------------
>
> It was always so small, your hand
> clutching my sleeve, pulling at me,
> throwing your little strength
> against my implacable stillness.
>
> Your tiny, tiny hands, faintly trembling
> as you pleaded in your quavering tones,
> "Move," and again, "move," not understanding
> that my only salvation was that stillness.
>
> Your eyes widened as you spoke,
> and, released from the reins of your resolution,
> the tears broke forth, spilling
> into the absorbing pool of my stillness.
>
> You had not the strength to break me,
> nor the raw might to turn me from my ways.
> You could not remain, you left your anchor, immobile.
> So I remain, locked within this changeless stillness.
>
> Alan Flesch
> February, 1995
>
Interesting, Alan; my first reaction was of a young child in a war zone,
pleading with its dead parent to move (morbid, i know, forgive me, it's
2am as i read/write.) Is it a love poem?
rom
>
> Alan (aj)
--
rom carpathian
Doug Quarnstrom
======
From the personal log of Douglas O'Toole, captain of the illustrious
SS Aegospotami:
We sail now to what will probably be a decisive battle, and I cannot
help thinking that I am only 33 years old. It bothers me more than
a little at this time of year that this is a perfect age for crucifixion.
The skies are vast and full with clouds carrying their gifts to land.
The wind is stiff and carries the Aegospotami through the waves into
a morning light that carries an increasing urgency, a growing revelation
of memory that swells the chest with a feeling that cannot be distinguished
between anguish and ecstasy.
Silver cords stretch from the morning sun to each sailor on board.
This seems a good omen...
======
April 1
-------
Still her scent consumes my skin.
Dear Dithyramb.
Sad Salome'
Oh, she flies as high as clouds
that range above me, potent, wet.
Ah, she dances, leaps and spins
on earth not full enough with life.
She calls the sky to pet the ground.
She lifts the earth to watered wind,
brings the spring,
swellings, burstings,
everything.
Sad Salome'.
Dear Dithyramb.
Our hands play tag. I breathe. She sighs.
She sees my once blue eyes glow grey.
She knows quite well I've lost my way.
Her eyes rage white above: portent,
yet still I feel the silver cord
frayed, fragile, thin.
I see a holy veil: faded, worn,
then finally shorn.
My lips speak willful well of death.
Sad Salome' says live.
Dear Dithyramb cries life
while down her face flow love and strife.
Reluctant still, I smile, yet slow,
on this fine April day.
The month is cruel, or so I'm told,
but regardless what I have to pay,
Sad Salome' will have her way.
As I leave her standing there,
black and blonde on white, she calls
to me, her big life sad: "Don't forget me."
"Don't forget me."
I never will.
======
After the war:
A letter smuggled from a Persian Prison:
Dearest Salome',
Some time ago I sent to you a list of beliefs, an addendum to a brief
essay on the Civilized Man's Burden. I must tell you, dearest, that this
list was a lie. I did not believe a word of it. I constructed it to
punish you for your refusal to be that which you can never be, the
consort of one man--even an O'Toole. I beg you to forgive me this
indulgence as I was angry and awash in the lust of the coming clash.
You must understand that even one glance from you (granted in a brief
moment taken from gazing upon a sea of other, more worthy, women and men)
would lead me to raise the Aegospotami from her deep dream of whale song
and to sail her once more to the Golden Chersonese to assay again the
conquest of those who threaten your honor, even if I had to man every
station alone.
Please forgive the weakness of a man so foolish in passion. I know
you will as even this is a thing I know is lovely to your sight.
You have my devotion, my love, and my life for as long as I walk up
and down in the earth.
Your Love,
Captain Douglas O'Toole
Doug Quarnstrom
Tammi T. Willmore left on a Friday,
which seemed quite a good day to leave.
She drove a red sports car into the sun.
She felt a bit happy, a little relieved.
She crossed desolation south of a lake
that burned, silver magma, in noonlight.
She heard Affirmations, Bells, and some Nails
In daytime she pondered machinery of night.
Tammi broke bread with a wanton west wind,
vast aereal dryness wrapped tight in heat,
and willingly, knowingly, crucified herself.
In shadows of mountains she met her defeat.
She began a long wait to be born a third time.
Her untimely death was made desolate, bleak
by cold conversations with a melanchol' skeleton
that could just barely move, could just barely speak.
She entered a gloom room and saw the thing there.
It whispered and coughed; it lay wrapped in old blankets.
She sat on the floor and choked back trepidation.
Skull eyes, hallowed, hollow, gazed at medical trinkets.
Tammi shot flame at the so-distant stars,
rode to Atlantis with Adam and Antony.
She played Salome' at night with her heart,
disturbed at this death-life, so mopish and lonely.
She wandered a day under vast marble domes
sketching the capitals, the odd facade.
She stumbled, mind numbed, through new halls of knowledge.
She weepy-eyed Auden and pondered DeSade.
Her brother's sad wife bemoaned indiscretions.
Tammi sped, gumpty gump, in search of her shadow.
Her brother sat silent, keeping dark counsel.
Tammi saw deer do a dance in a meadow.
Days did a drunk's shuffle, a miscreant scuffle,
slow fast skip slow halt go halt go.
Visits to old friends threw romance to a gale,
and Tammi's Athena eyes started to glow.
She bid the skeleton's shattered leg 'bye.
She kissed moulding ma ma a wan toodle-loo.
She hopped on her red steed, and bleedingly fleet,
headed back to the shadows. She knew what to do.
One more crucifixion. This time for sure.
With death up by two, life would have to come on.
Dodging insanity, compelled to absurdity,
she blazed, doubly dead, into a leaprous new dawn.
doug 7/94
Doug Quarnstrom
O City city
-----------
Sun,
shouldering
.
. . .
. . .
. . .
.......o.......
ver
steel,
glass,
stone
horizons,
plucked me
out with its
burning burning burning
burning, glancing from a
million windows to bathe
me in heat at the feet
of
almost-
marble
atrium
steps !
The boy in the Batman t-shirt
sat at the bottom, alone,
like a lion of almost-stone,
but rocking back
and
forth,
head hitting rock,
a slight
smack
and
smack
and
smack.
"Arrow.
Arrow.
Arrow."
smack
"A row.
A row.
A row."
smack
"Are Oh.
Are Oh.
Are Oh."
smack
Seemingly summoned (smack),
Lady Blue appeared a street corner away.
I never knew her name, but I knew her shade,
She wore well her blue, and Oh...
leg
leg leg,
then
blue blue
blue.
Then, quickly complementary
that gold gold gold hair
with its challenge to the air.
This woman was always
the morning sky
to me and I
adored her,
my cool colored (mi)stress.
I'm pretty damned(!)
sure that all men would,
and some women too,
lose themselves in that
flesh flash beckoning
leg to hip and hip
with a narrowing of blue,
expanding again
to breast and breast
and a return to flesh.
She waved blue at the lad, maternal and coy,
she flashed white within gold at the invalid boy
but not me, and I wished she would stop,
but the lad only rocked.
"Arrow.
Arrow.
Arrow."
smack
She flowed flowed flowed down the street,
my eyes >>>>>>>> tracking till she
was eclipsed(!) by a huge muscle-man,
all blonded and tanned, his skin fire-flashed
to the color of magma, carving the tarmac
with a giant jackhammer.
The thunder on his brow
spoke of rain, but no lightning sp
lit the heavens.
As she passed into the umbra of this muscled expanse,
Lady Blue placed her hand on his chest
then dragged it across, and I lost my breath
as the lust in my loins cried, "Give me a chance."
"Oh love me oh love me oh love me do."
"A row. A row. A row." smack
A courier flashed by on his ten speed conveyance,
pumping the pe
d
als with divine perseverance,
On his fleet
feet were Air Jordans (tm).
Only (God) knows where he was going with them.
A delivery truck man was unloading light
fixtures at the front of the building next door.
A sticker affixed to the back bumper
of his nondescript grey panel van
boasted:
"I was voted
Father
of the Year." Undoubtedly all
lies,
thought I.
"A row.
A row.
A row."
smack
The bearer of lights, the father of the year
crossed the street and whispered in Batman boy's ear.
But the boy just ignored him and kept up his smack.
His rock and his chant were a matter of.................fact.
"Are Oh Are Oh Are Oh" smack!
Virgin morning in the waking capital.
It had been this way for ten thousand years.
My feet were wearing deep d s in the almost-marble
ep on and the IDIOT-smack
re si was finally
s crac king
st one.
Then, like an arrow arrow arrow
I was gone gone gone!
doug reworked 2/12/92
Doug Quarnstrom
: Greetings, Ian. I saw your thread and droped one of my poems in. I
: really liked the others i read. I'm always on the 'Net lookout for spots
: to share poetry: what better place to do it than at a virtual coffeehouse?
: a cold night's warm muse
: the muse is such a gentle being;
: she haunts, she sings,
: she tells us everything is ok.
: i want to marry my muse,
: to touch her and feel her
: soft breath on my neck.
This is very interesting. I want to dismember my muse and bury
her in the basement. To each their own, I imagine...
The above is spoken metaphorically, of course and meant to indicate
that the muse is a bitch and a whore who rides you hard and always
puts you away wet. She wakes you when you want to rest and leaves
you when you want to rut. She is contrary and uncooperative and
deserving of little but contempt, scorn, and emnity...
doug
Ian James Percival
>My mother spoke to me once of an old
>prophecy made about the end of the
>world. "The
>end would come," she said to me, "When the trees died
>from the tops down, and an
>eagle flew to the
>moon." She then went on to remind me how
>acid rain now kills the trees
>from the tops down. And when we made our
>first trip to the
>moon, the first thing they said was,
>"The Eagle has landed."
Thanx skatha, any prose that can affect emotions or provoke thoughts, as
the above does, must be a little magical.
Ian.
"My sense of God is my sense of the wonderment of the universe"
******************************************************************
******************************************************************
******************************************************************
******************************************************************
Seth Springer Fortin
Doug Quarnstrom <d...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
>
>The above is spoken metaphorically, of course and meant to indicate
>that the muse is a bitch and a whore who rides you hard and always
>puts you away wet. She wakes you when you want to rest and leaves
>you when you want to rut. She is contrary and uncooperative and
>deserving of little but contempt, scorn, and emnity...
Springer:
"But pretty hot nonetheless, eh, Doug?"
Springer, whose muse is actually fairly slow and methodical.
Doug Quarnstrom
: > Interesting, Alan; my first reaction was of a young child in a war zone,
: >pleading with its dead parent to move (morbid, i know, forgive me, it's
: >2am as i read/write.) Is it a love poem?
: "Hard to say, really. Most of the things I write are about the inability
: of man to accept the realization of his own idealisms: love, honor,
: strength, etc... I also tend to write poems about/for my children."
What, exactly, do you mean? Do you mean man's inability to accept it
when his ideals are made real or when a man realizes that his ideals
are only that and not reality?
doug
Alan Flesch
>: of man to accept the realization of his own idealisms: love, honor,
>: strength, etc... I also tend to write poems about/for my children."
>What, exactly, do you mean? Do you mean man's inability to accept it
>when his ideals are made real or when a man realizes that his ideals
>are only that and not reality?
"More the latter. I mean that a lot of people I know have ideals. What
very few of them acknowledge (and I myself am one of these persons) is that
our ideals are such that we cannot possibly hope to achieve them. For
example, as a culture we claim to prize artistic and intellectual endeavors.
We pride the names of our philosophers and our authors. But more people
know more about the Muppets than they do about Shakespeare, or Plato, or
Beethoven. What we call 'culture' our culture really knows very little
about. Maybe I just am stuck in an aristocratic snobbishness..."
>doug
Alan (aj)
who still doesn't make any sense... sigh.
rom carpathian
(Alan Flesch) wrote:
> > Interesting, Alan; my first reaction was of a young child in a war zone,
> >pleading with its dead parent to move (morbid, i know, forgive me, it's
> >2am as i read/write.) Is it a love poem?
>
> "Hard to say, really. Most of the things I write are about the inability
> of man to accept the realization of his own idealisms: love, honor,
> strength, etc... I also tend to write poems about/for my children."
>
> "This one was neither, really. It was just a visual image I had, of very
> tiny hands trying to move something of superior strength..."
>
> Alan (aj)
> who doesn't really make sense here...
Thanks, Alan. I'm very idealistic concerning humanity, so its nice to see
the other side presented in poetry.
--
rom carpathian
Kristin A. Ruhle
Distribution:
Alan Flesch (fle...@phakt.usc.edu) wrote:
: "I thought about what I wrote and discovered that I really hadn't made any
: sense. Let me try to explain again."
: "I prize intellectual endeavor. I'm not a very strong person, physically.
: I respect people who use their brains to create great works of art, or write
: very profound novels, etc."
"I more or less agree," says Kristin, "except I don't have haute
taste(Tm)...I can't really get into "profound" stuff."
: "I love intellectual activity. So why don't I do it? Why don't I try to
: spend any effort at all to try to get others to produce it? My idealism
: exceeds my actions: I spend my time frivolously playing games when I should
: be attempting to accomplish something I profess to value highly. My ideals
: will _never_ become reality because I expend no effort to bring them about.
: And certain ideals will _never_ come to be: unified world government, for
: instance, I believe to be impossible. So why try? Because we seem to
: be idealists. I find this to be (classically speaking) a great tragedy."
"Sounds like me, all thought and no action," Kristin muses. "After work
each night I sit down for an hour or so of Nethack, or a shareware mah
jongg program, when I could be trying to write a great novel or
something. I seem to have the ability to *appreciate* art, but not the
self discipline to *create* it (and only limited talent.) Like, I can
start fiction stories, but never finish them. I can doodle horses, but I
couldn't draw a decent human figure to save my life. And I am a cynic
about many issues, political and otherwise."
Kristin, backpedaling with life
--
***********************************************************************
"The whole world - as the Village? ...I'd like to be the first man on the
moon." -Number 6
***************kri...@rahul.net**************************************
rom carpathian
"You make a very good point, Alan. How culture is studied by the artists,
and how it is lived by the masses, are two very different perspectives.
For the majority of people, media entertainment is culture; the Muppets as
opposed to Shakespeare. I find it amazing that we claim to be so
literate, and yet so many people barely read a newspaper.
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
> "I love intellectual activity. So why don't I do it? Why don't I try to
> spend any effort at all to try to get others to produce it? My idealism
> exceeds my actions: I spend my time frivolously playing games when I should
> be attempting to accomplish something I profess to value highly. My ideals
> will _never_ become reality because I expend no effort to bring them about.
> And certain ideals will _never_ come to be: unified world government, for
> instance, I believe to be impossible. So why try? Because we seem to
> be idealists. I find this to be (classically speaking) a great tragedy."
>
> who isn't as smart as he wishes.
"I'm sorry, Alan, but I believe some form of world unification will come
about; when i have no idea, but it will. (Call me idealistic). This is
not to suggest that cultural and racial values will be diminished, we will
simply learn to work much better together in spite of the diversity. In
the core of its being, humanity wants to survive, and the best way to do
this is not through battle (survival of the fittest), but through
cooperation.
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
> Doug Quarnstrom <d...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
> >
> >The above is spoken metaphorically, of course and meant to indicate
> >that the muse is a bitch and a whore who rides you hard and always
> >puts you away wet. She wakes you when you want to rest and leaves
> >you when you want to rut. She is contrary and uncooperative and
> >deserving of little but contempt, scorn, and emnity...
"I don't mean to pry, Doug, and tell me to mind my own business if you
think I am, but is your muse perspective based upon some bad experience(s)
in relationships?
--
rom carpathian
Kimberlee Titus
> > We pride the names of our philosophers and our authors. But more people
> > know more about the Muppets than they do about Shakespeare, or Plato, or
> > Beethoven. What we call 'culture' our culture really knows very little
> > about. Maybe I just am stuck in an aristocratic snobbishness..."
> >
> literate, and yet so many people barely read a newspaper.
I figure that you were just using that as an example, but I know
personally, I don't read the newspaper because it depresses
me. They need to call it the Bad News. For awhile, I read it with the
mission of looking for a positive article, but it got too difficult. I
would rather read things that are classical, entertaining, spiritual,
helpful, or uplifting than to read about murders, rapes, child abuse cases,
etc. I would rather spend the little free time I have reading a Dr. Seuss
book with my daughter than to read the same old news day after day. I guess
I am being a bit of an ostrich, but I find out the things I need to know,
and don't bother with the rest. I know there is horrible stuff going on,
but I don't need it crammed down my throat every time I pick up a paper.
Kandace, remaining optimistic.
Leslie Horder
>cooperation.
"This brings up the interesting idea of the Tower of Babyl.....Sorry, this
is my old church talking about the future again. I guess you have to come
from the right background....but it is jsut a thought."
Leslie, hemming and hawing her way through a quilt and a donkey
impersonation
rom carpathian
Renee Kist) wrote:
> I wrote this long ago, but it's still one I like to share:
>
> **********************************
> Sweet Love
> How Innocent thou art,
> A playful Sprite of the Sea.
> How should it come to pass
> That you should Love one
> As Wicked as me?
>
> You see me as a Child of Laughter,
> A Zenith of pure Light,
> But after the Nova has passed
> I am but a Black Hole
> In the Velvet Night.
>
> **********************************
>
> Originally published in 1979,
> under the name R. G. Lynch.
> copyright 1977
>
> "Too many years of SF and Shakespeare. :) I really liked the other
> poems I've been reading here. Alan's really struck a nerve, as I
> just found out, someone important to me is leaving town, with too
> many emotions left hanging." Renee says, eyes cast downward.
Thanks for sharing, Renee. We need more love poems in this world.
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
<Pine.A32.3.91c.95021...@homer12.u.washington.edu>,
Kimberlee Titus <kti...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
Yes, i was just using it as an example; you should read a Dr. Seuss book
with your daughter opposed to a paper any day; i find that very touching!
I never watch the news because its one bad thing after another.
Keep reading with your daughter!
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
ecs...@luxor.latrobe.edu.au (ThunderFoot) wrote:
> `"I'm sorry, Alan, but I believe some form of world unification will come
> `about; when i have no idea, but it will. (Call me idealistic).
>
> "I'm sorry, Rom, but I believe some form of world unification will come
> about; when i have no idea, but it will. (Call me paranoid). But then
> I've been reading stuff about conspiracy theory since I was 21..."
>
>
>
> /\_____ "There is Death, and there is Oblivion,
> // ~ / .\_____ and, of the two,
> / \ \ ' .. \/ Oblivion is the kinder master..."
> // \ /~__ -_/
> /\/ |\/ / ~-- Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson
> / \\\| \ Bale Wolf of the Greater Yawning Dark
> / / \
> / "The longer I am off a leash the more feral I become..."
I would like to see what happens, but i dont think my lifespan will allow it. :)
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
(Jonathan Hatch) wrote:
> "Okay. I know I'm new and slow, but here goes:
>
> Father
>
> Father sits, son on knee
> Father talks of life
> Blowing spit bubbles of deception
> Thrilling at the fascination evident in his rube son
> A shell game challenge of truth and lies
> "Find the flower, find the prize,
> find the ace
> Hide the love in a paper cup
> Lose the caring up the sleeve
> sleight of heart."
>
>
> And...
>
> Smoke
>
> at the tip of the rag end, poised in coitus with my lungs
> sways the tongue of cancer
>
> She mocks me as I inhale Her deathself,
> that's what She wants.
>
> She curls upwards smiling with orgasmic glee
> knowing I, too, will wither and die under Her wispy caress
>
> My only consolation comes when she rises
> and spreads to her own diffused end
Thanks for your poetry, Jonathan. "Smoke" seems so personal i'm glad you
could share it.
--
rom carpathian
ThunderFoot
Evan oopses, "Uh, I mean 12..."
Doug Quarnstrom
: "More the latter. I mean that a lot of people I know have ideals. What
: very few of them acknowledge (and I myself am one of these persons) is that
: our ideals are such that we cannot possibly hope to achieve them. For
: example, as a culture we claim to prize artistic and intellectual endeavors.
: We pride the names of our philosophers and our authors. But more people
: know more about the Muppets than they do about Shakespeare, or Plato, or
: Beethoven. What we call 'culture' our culture really knows very little
: about. Maybe I just am stuck in an aristocratic snobbishness..."
Maybe so, but go with it.
The response made perfect sense and it seems a good theme for
poetic discourse...
doug
Doug Quarnstrom
: very profound novels, etc."
: "I love intellectual activity. So why don't I do it? Why don't I try to
: spend any effort at all to try to get others to produce it? My idealism
: exceeds my actions: I spend my time frivolously playing games when I should
: be attempting to accomplish something I profess to value highly. My ideals
: will _never_ become reality because I expend no effort to bring them about.
: And certain ideals will _never_ come to be: unified world government, for
: instance, I believe to be impossible.
...not to mention undesirable.
doug
Doug Quarnstrom
: "You make a very good point, Alan. How culture is studied by the artists,
: and how it is lived by the masses, are two very different perspectives.
: For the majority of people, media entertainment is culture; the Muppets as
: opposed to Shakespeare.
Let us not forget that Shakespeare was the muppet master of his day.
: I find it amazing that we claim to be so
: literate, and yet so many people barely read a newspaper.
The sort of literacy discussed in measures of literacy rates is
more of the nature of being able to read simple instructions than
being able to wade through Finnegans Wake.
doug
Doug Quarnstrom
: "I'm sorry, Alan, but I believe some form of world unification will come
: about; when i have no idea, but it will.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
doug
Doug Quarnstrom
Skatha
James Percival) wrote:
<poem skipped off to the moon with the eagle>
>
> Thanx skatha, any prose that can affect emotions or provoke thoughts, as
> the above does, must be a little magical.
>
"It's definitely magical - every time I read it, at least a hundred times
now, it still hits me as strong as it did the first time; and it hits me
even stronger than it did when my mother first told me about the legend."
----Skatha, bedazzled by words
(jepe...@students.wisc.edu)
"I dream in Technicolor!"
Surreality is your friend.
And so is Bob.
"He's no fun, he fell right over!" - The Giant Rat Of Sumatra
Skatha
<Pine.A32.3.91c.95021...@homer12.u.washington.edu>,
Kimberlee Titus <kti...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> "Kristin," Kandace begins after pondering her own self discipline issues,
> "if you really *want* to write and finish your stories, it might be
> helpful to find a writing partner. Someone who is having a similar
> problem and will keep you on track. You can help each other through
> rough spots, and knowing that you are accountable to someone else should
> help you keep going. I have had the same problem. I have a notebook two
> inches thick, full of ideas that have been started and never completed.
> My boyfriend and I were discussing this last weekend, and though he is
> not a writer, he is going to help me when I get stuck and help to push me
> when I get lazy. Anyway, just a thought."
"I wish I had someone like that," Jess sighs. "I do have something close,
though. My roommate likes to read my stuff as I write it, and it drives her
nuts whenever I stop, because she wants to know what happens next. So, yes,
when she's not too busy, she does pester me to write more, and I think it's
good for me."
> Kandace, climbing over her writers' block.
----Skatha, prey to a finicky muse, but luckily not blocked yet...
rom carpathian
What exactly dare you suggesting ,Leslie?
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
wrote:
: rom carpathian (jef...@rain.org) wrote:
> : : "I don't mean to pry, Doug, and tell me to mind my own business if you
> : : think I am, but is your muse perspective based upon some bad experience(s)
> : : in relationships?
>
> : No.
>
> Well, to be completely honest, I suppose I should say not much.
> It is difficult to know for sure what elements go into making up
> any give view of art, but my early efforts at creation, years ago,
> were certainly related to the urge to find adoration through
> artistic means when under the stress of painful relationships.
>
> I have since fully divorced my creative urge from such things by
> making it more a matter of discipline than emotional inclination,
> although the discipline is certainly far less complete than I wish.
Maybe i'm overly optomistic and emotional (in a loving way), but i can't
rank discipline above emotion in creativity; certainly an artist requires
discipline, but in my perspective, a disciplined muse is a quiet muse.
Perhaps this is how you prefer it, and if so, i'm glad you know where your
muse relationship stands.
> The muse is the master. I suppose you are fortunate if your master is
nice to >you, but I myself would still wish, on the whole, to be free of
the master >entirely. But I am no more free to stop creating than a junky
is free to stop >shooting smack. That is my whole point...
> doug
My muse is nice and caring; she isn't my master and i'm not her's; we
share with each other. :)
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
> >In article <jeffrey-1702...@port52.rain.org>,
> >rom carpathian <jef...@rain.org> wrote:
>
> >>I never watch the news because its one bad thing after another.
>
>
> > "Son, it ain't one damn thing after another -- it's the same damn
> >thing over and over again!
>
"You're right, springer; only the names change to protect the criminals."
--
rom carpathian
rom carpathian
wrote:
> The sort of literacy discussed in measures of literacy rates is
> more of the nature of being able to read simple instructions than
> being able to wade through Finnegans Wake.
>
> doug
"Yes, but how many people CAN read simple instruction?"
--
rom carpathian
ThunderFoot
`What exactly dare you suggesting, Leslie?
Evan, completely unlike himself, intercepts a question to another, "Whenever
mankind reaches for the sky, someone raps them on the knuckles... The Tower
of Babel was basically about mankind trying to set themselves up as the
extreme example of "Look, we can do anything, we are the dominant creatures
on this planet..." and, pride coming before a fall cause without pride you
have nowhere lower to go, they were scattered to the ends of the earth and
made incomprehensible to each other. Leslie was, I think, suggesting that if
mankind actually manages to bind itself back together it is entirely possible
that something may happen to scatter them again..."
Seth Springer Fortin
rom carpathian <jef...@rain.org> wrote:
>In article <3i3283$h...@tadpole.fc.hp.com>, d...@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom)
>wrote:
>>
>> It is difficult to know for sure what elements go into making up
>> any give view of art, but my early efforts at creation, years ago,
>> were certainly related to the urge to find adoration through
>> artistic means when under the stress of painful relationships.
>>
>> I have since fully divorced my creative urge from such things by
>> making it more a matter of discipline than emotional inclination,
>> although the discipline is certainly far less complete than I wish.
>
>Maybe i'm overly optomistic and emotional (in a loving way), but i can't
>rank discipline above emotion in creativity; certainly an artist requires
>discipline, but in my perspective, a disciplined muse is a quiet muse.
>Perhaps this is how you prefer it, and if so, i'm glad you know where your
>muse relationship stands.
Springer:
"Discipline is the sole ingredient in artistic work; emotion is
useless."
SPringer, Harsh.
Seth Springer Fortin
ThunderFoot <ecs...@luxor.latrobe.edu.au> wrote:
>
>Evan, completely unlike himself, intercepts a question to another, "Whenever
>mankind reaches for the sky, someone raps them on the knuckles... The Tower
>of Babel was basically about mankind trying to set themselves up as the
>extreme example of "Look, we can do anything, we are the dominant creatures
>on this planet..." and, pride coming before a fall cause without pride you
Springer:
"Yeah, that's what that story is about, but I think a lot of stuff got blamed on God and re-interpreted before it was written down in the Bible. I
have a really hard time believing that God would fuck with us like that. On
the other hand, maybe He realized He'd underestimated us, and had to change the
rules in the middle of the game. In a way, most of the book of Genesis can be
read that way -- Man does something silly, and God has to change the rules to
compensate -- to keep us on track, you see.
"Of course, Ev, weren't you the one who suggested that every time there
was a new theory, God changed the physics just to keep up sprightly?
"Anyway, I don't think we're going to be scattered in that way again.
Because between the time of Babel and the present day, so much has happened
to make us distrust ech other, I think we break ourselves up, and make our
own barriers. If we ever get past them and unite, I think there will be a new
and different challenge."
Springer, incoherent.
ThunderFoot
` "Discipline is the sole ingredient in artistic work; emotion is
`useless."
"Depends on the art, depends on the emotion, just depends...."
`Springer, Harsh.
Evan, Seer.
"Failing Madness,
/\_____ Death will suffice.
// ~ / .\_____ Oblivion, the blunted hilt of every
/ \ \ ' .. \/ cutting knife."
Leslie Horder
>`What exactly dare you suggesting, Leslie?
> Leslie was, I think, suggesting that if
>mankind actually manages to bind itself back together it is entirely possible
>that something may happen to scatter them again..."
"That's exactly what I meant, only I would not have been able to say it as
eloquently. I am much obliged, Evan."
Leslie, away from her church, but still searching
Leslie Horder
>>> any give view of art,
>>> making it more a matter of discipline than emotional inclination,
>>> although the discipline is certainly far less complete than I wish.
>>Maybe i'm overly optomistic and emotional (in a loving way), but i can't
>>rank discipline above emotion in creativity; certainly an artist requires
>>discipline, but in my perspective, a disciplined muse is a quiet muse.
>>Perhaps this is how you prefer it, and if so, i'm glad you know where your
>>muse relationship stands.
>Springer:
> "Discipline is the sole ingredient in artistic work; emotion is
>useless."
>SPringer, Harsh.
"I would say that is a little harsh. I think that emotion is more important
in art than disciplie even, even, even, well, I don't know. But I think that
to try to take emotion out of art destroys it. It is no longer art then. BUt
without discipline, then the medium may be a little sloppy. So be it. I
believe the whole point of art is to transform or to transport the viewer or
listener to a different place in themselves. And those places evoke feelings.
You cannot evoke feelings without /having/ them."
Leslie, sputtering artist
Seth Springer Fortin
rom carpathian <jef...@rain.org> wrote:
Springer:
"Dow, Lockheed, Nestle's, U.S. Government...."
Springer on a political tip.
Leslie Horder
>>mankind reaches for the sky, someone raps them on the knuckles... The Tower
>>of Babel was basically about mankind trying to set themselves up as the
>>extreme example of "Look, we can do anything, we are the dominant creatures
>>on this planet..." and, pride coming before a fall cause without pride you
>Springer:
> "Yeah, that's what that story is about, but I think a lot of stuff
>got blamed on God and re-interpreted before it was written down in the Bible.
"Always a possibility."
> "Anyway, I don't think we're going to be scattered in that way again.
>Because between the time of Babel and the present day, so much has happened
>to make us distrust ech other, I think we break ourselves up, and make our
>own barriers. If we ever get past them and unite, I think there will be a new
>and different challenge."
"Perhaps that would be God's way of scattering us again. We could even go
so far as to say, He intended it from the very first scattering that we should
never again be together in the same way......"
>Springer, incoherent.
Leslie, incandescent
ThunderFoot
` "Yeah, that's what that story is about, but I think a lot of stuff got
`blamed on God and re-interpreted before it was written down in the Bible. I
`have a really hard time believing that God would fuck with us like that.
"I don't really see it like that... If you have two children that, by
themselves, or with most other people, are reasonably well behaved and quite
wonderful overall, but when they get together lock you out of the house,
get dressed in your clothes and start drinking the beer you have in the
fridge, wouldn't you try to keep them apart? There are things mankind should
not come to know at any age. Unified man is a great capacity for evil... And
evil would always gain control of any significantly large populace, mainly
because good plays fair. I see it as God doing what he had to for our own
good."
`On the other hand, maybe He realized He'd underestimated us, and had to
`change the rules in the middle of the game. In a way, most of the book
`of Genesis can be read that way -- Man does something silly, and God has
`to change the rules to compensate -- to keep us on track, you see.
"Not so much to keep us on track, but to minimise the damage... In most
cases the rules weren't changed, but introduced when there became a need for
them. Like living near a natural pool with a very rocky bottom, your family
knows it's a stupid place to go diving into, but when a new family moves into
the neighbourhood it suddenly becomes important to put up a no diving sign.
Most rules based on common sense were only written down when sense became
less common."
` "Of course, Ev, weren't you the one who suggested that every time there
`was a new theory, God changed the physics just to keep us sprightly?
Evan grins, "Yep, I like that idea, though I do not think it a truth, just
a possibility."
` "Anyway, I don't think we're going to be scattered in that way again.
`Because between the time of Babel and the present day, so much has happened
`to make us distrust ech other, I think we break ourselves up, and make our
`own barriers. If we ever get past them and unite, I think there will be a
`new and different challenge."
"Unity would take power and deception in horrific amounts and will never be
accomplished by honest man."
"Failing Madness,
/\_____ Death will suffice.
// ~ / .\_____ Oblivion, the blunted hilt of every
/ \ \ ' .. \/ cutting knife."
Kimberlee Titus
> "Seriously, though, I don't mind the news because it's often about
> tragedy. After all, there are a lot of wrong things in the world. I mind
> it because it's so damned superficial. TV news is pap -- it's just a
> series of little factoids (things shaped like facts) that contain little or
> no real information -- certainly not enough to make a judgement from. One
> of the worst examples of this is the 'man on the street' phenomenon. What
> do I care what some twit at the shopping mall thinks of Bill Clinton? Tell
> me what the man is doing, not what people *think* he's doing. The news
> media is so self-reflexive nowadays -- it's all about itself, and not about
> real events, people, politics, or problems. Everything real is carefully
> hidden behind a screen of rhetoric and opinion. Whether this is because,
> as Noam Chomsky says, the media are controlled by large corporations in whose
> best interest is public ignorance, or whether it's because the news has to be
> dumbed-down before people will watch it, doesn't really matter to me. It's
> disgusting either way, and I don't thing honest journalists should play ball."
>
"Yay!! Yahoo!! Three cheers for Springer..." Kandace yells while
standing on her chair clapping madly (and hoping Mrs. Shelly doesn't see
her on the furniture). "You go boy..."
Kandace, who used to want to be a journalist when she grew up.
Alan Flesch
>: instance, I believe to be impossible.
>...not to mention undesirable.
"And look how many Sci-Fi novels just _assume_ that it will come about.
I guess it's just one of the underlying assumptions of the Western
Tradition..."
Alan (aj)
who doesn't particularly want unified world Government, either...
Leslie Horder
>accomplished by honest man."
"Ouch."
Leslie, scared by the truth of it
Leslie Horder
> There's a certain kind of stupidity that has
> nothing to do with IQ or formal education... and sometimes I think
> it's spreading..."
"As long as we are talking bout stupidity here, how about the morons that
put a sign, in the drivethru of Mc Donalds (tm), that brail menus are
available? Can anyone explain this?"
Leslie, dumbfounded
Doug Quarnstrom
: Maybe i'm overly optomistic and emotional (in a loving way), but i can't
: rank discipline above emotion in creativity;
Who said I ranked one over the other? Rationality, emotion, and discipline
are all key to artistic creation.
: certainly an artist requires
: discipline, but in my perspective, a disciplined muse is a quiet muse.
Do you presume to speak for all muses? If so, I will demand to do
the same and claim that a friendly muse isn't a muse at all, but is
simply a visitor from Hallmark...
: Perhaps this is how you prefer it, and if so, i'm glad you know where your
: muse relationship stands.
Frankly, the "muse" relationship is far too complex to ever tie down.
: > The muse is the master. I suppose you are fortunate if your master is
: nice to >you, but I myself would still wish, on the whole, to be free of
: the master >entirely. But I am no more free to stop creating than a junky
: is free to stop >shooting smack. That is my whole point...
: > doug
: My muse is nice and caring; she isn't my master and i'm not her's; we
: share with each other. :)
Or so you are allowed to believe...
:)
doug
Timothy Clarke
: >`What exactly dare you suggesting, Leslie?
: > Leslie was, I think, suggesting that if
: >mankind actually manages to bind itself back together it is entirely possible
: >that something may happen to scatter them again..."
"I kinda see it this way: An unopposed one world government is
inevitable, and wouldn't last. Nor do I think it would be terribly
desirable, as others have pointed out.
"I do think it'll occur though. As a result of one part good intentions
(desire for peace etc) and two parts desire for power in those people who
will always desire power.
"Here's where my hopeful side comes in. This government, even though it
couldn't last long by itself, will create it's own competition. The WWG
will push the colonization of space (a MUST for our survival, IMO). And
thats where the opposition will come from.
"So I guess I kinda agree with those who say that mankind will never be
united under one banner. Of course I don't see it happening any time
soon, but dear God I would love too."
Tim, I've got my dream, so get your own
Seth Springer Fortin
ThunderFoot <ecs...@luxor.latrobe.edu.au> wrote:
>`Springer:
>
>` "Yeah, that's what that story is about, but I think a lot of stuff got
>`blamed on God and re-interpreted before it was written down in the Bible. I
>`have a really hard time believing that God would fuck with us like that.
>
>"I don't really see it like that... If you have two children that, by
>themselves, or with most other people, are reasonably well behaved and quite
>wonderful overall, but when they get together lock you out of the house,
>get dressed in your clothes and start drinking the beer you have in the
>fridge, wouldn't you try to keep them apart? There are things mankind should
>not come to know at any age. Unified man is a great capacity for evil... And
Springer:
"Which is a bit like saying you don't believe those children will
ever grow up or could ever behave nicely. You trust your children at some
point -- otherwise, what's the point of letting them live?"
>` "Anyway, I don't think we're going to be scattered in that way again.
>`Because between the time of Babel and the present day, so much has happened
>`to make us distrust ech other, I think we break ourselves up, and make our
>`own barriers. If we ever get past them and unite, I think there will be a
>`new and different challenge."
>
>"Unity would take power and deception in horrific amounts and will never be
>accomplished by honest man."
"That's a rather nasty statement, isn't it?"
Springer, "The most endangered species, the honest man."
Doug Quarnstrom
: Springer:
: "Discipline is the sole ingredient in artistic work; emotion is
: useless."
I think that the truth lies in between. Emotion is useful, but
art is hard work, and anyone not able to discipline themselves to
hard work will accomplish nothing.
doug
ThunderFoot
`>accomplished by honest man."
`"Ouch."
`Leslie, scared by the truth of it
Evan bites his lip, "Sorry, I should stop being a doomsday prophet."
"After all," He adds, "There's no future in it..."
ThunderFoot
` "Which is a bit like saying you don't believe those children will
`ever grow up or could ever behave nicely.
Evan interrupts, "No, it's a bit like saying that those children will never
grow up or learn to behave nicely if they are left to do whatever they want
at every opportunity. Discipline is a necessity in child-rearing. I would've
thought the recent rapid decline of the western world would've pointed that
out to everyone..."
`You trust your children at some point -- otherwise, what's the point of
`letting them live?"
He grins manically, "I trust them to be completely self-centred and to not
even pretend to be otherwise unless taught so."
`>"Unity would take power and deception in horrific amounts and will never be
`>accomplished by honest man."
` "That's a rather nasty statement, isn't it?"
Evan laughs, "Yeah... I'm rather proud of it actually."
`Springer, "The most endangered species, the honest man."
He smiles, "It's something to do with innocence... Keeps a lot of tension away
and so the meat stays tender..." He licks his lips.
Doug Quarnstrom
: Doug Quarnstrom (d...@fc.hp.com) wrote:
: : Alan Flesch (fle...@phakt.usc.edu) wrote:
: : : And certain ideals will _never_ come to be: unified world government, for
: : : instance, I believe to be impossible.
: : ...not to mention undesirable.
: Why ?
: There are bound to be problems with any government, but if you can
: get adequate representation for the average joe right to the top you
: have a reasonable government. How would making it worldwide change this ?
Assuming you think democracy is a good idea, and assuming you think
it is stable (which I do not, necessarily), maybe world govt is good.
I prefer to keep a diversity of solutions so that no power is too
powerful. World govt. could too easily become world tyranny.
doug
Leslie Horder
>`>"Unity would take power and deception in horrific amounts and will never be
>`>accomplished by honest man."
>`"Ouch."
>`Leslie, scared by the truth of it
>Evan bites his lip, "Sorry, I should stop being a doomsday prophet."
"No, no, Evan. I didn't mean that you shouldn't say things. It is ok (I
think) to prophesy things, even if 'doomsday' in nature, as long as they are
soaked in truth. It is the fools who run around spouting about that which
they have no clue that get to me..."
Leslie
Seth Springer Fortin
ThunderFoot <ecs...@luxor.latrobe.edu.au> wrote:
>`Springer:
>` "Which is a bit like saying you don't believe those children will
>`ever grow up or could ever behave nicely.
>
>Evan interrupts, "No, it's a bit like saying that those children will never
>grow up or learn to behave nicely if they are left to do whatever they want
>at every opportunity. Discipline is a necessity in child-rearing. I would've
>thought the recent rapid decline of the western world would've pointed that
>out to everyone..."
Springer:
"You call this a decline?"
>
>`You trust your children at some point -- otherwise, what's the point of
>`letting them live?"
>
>He grins manically, "I trust them to be completely self-centred and to not
>even pretend to be otherwise unless taught so."
"My children are not allowed to play at your house, Evan...."
Springer, the too-trusting parent. (Of fictitious children.)
Doug Quarnstrom
: "I would say that is a little harsh. I think that emotion is more important
: in art than disciplie even, even, even, well, I don't know. But I think that
: to try to take emotion out of art destroys it.
Really? My art never began to approach a state where I was willing to
call it art until I began to apply discipline to all the emotion.
Nobody is suggesting that emotion needs to be removed. At least I am not.
: It is no longer art then.
Really? So art that is based on rational appreciation is not art?
: BUt without discipline, then the medium may be a little sloppy. So be it.
Why so be it?
: I
: believe the whole point of art is to transform or to transport the viewer or
: listener to a different place in themselves. And those places evoke feelings.
: You cannot evoke feelings without /having/ them."
Yes, you can. Let's assume I have no feelings at all, and treat others
accordingly. I will evoke tons of feeling in them regardless how I
feel myself. The same can be done with art. Your stated purpose for
art is ONE of the purposes of art, and is not necessarily the purpose
of all art.
: Leslie, sputtering artist
I draw and write, but as an artist, I am way too fucking lazy to achieve
the potential that is there, although my charcoal drawing is improving
by leaps and bounds, because I have gained a small amount of discipline
to make myself work on it where usually I would just read or watch television.
If you are sputtering, perhaps you need to seek discipline.
Doug
Leslie Horder
>: in art than disciplie even, even, even, well, I don't know. But I think that
>: to try to take emotion out of art destroys it.
>Really? My art never began to approach a state where I was willing to
>call it art until I began to apply discipline to all the emotion.
I disagree on this point. Art is art is art. What the artist calls art is
therefore art. Just because I do not like it does not mean that it is not
'art'. Some children, with all the discipline, can reconstruct what an
artist took years to develop in the matter of seconds by dumping a bunch
of pretty fingerpaints on a sheet of paper. i believe that art conveys
an emotion. but if the artist is not feeling an emotion when they create it
then i feel that i am being decieved.
>: It is no longer art then.
>Really? So art that is based on rational appreciation is not art?
it is an aesthetic thing. i can rationally appreciate a perfect tennis
serve, but I do not consider it art.
>: BUt without discipline, then the medium may be a little sloppy. So be it.
>Why so be it?
why not. are you going to try to tell me that art is tidy?
>: I
>: believe the whole point of art is to transform or to transport the viewer or
>: listener to a different place in themselves. And those places evoke feelings.
>: You cannot evoke feelings without /having/ them."
>Yes, you can. Let's assume I have no feelings at all, and treat others
>accordingly. I will evoke tons of feeling in them regardless how I
>feel myself. The same can be done with art.
i sort of disagree. as i said, if i were to know that an artist was not
feeling when he created, i would feel cheated and deceived. and yes, you
would evoke tons of feeling. tons of anger and indignation at a lack
of decency. this is not related to art. art is not an action, or the lack
thereof, that creates a response.
>Your stated purpose for
>art is ONE of the purposes of art, and is not necessarily the purpose
>of all art.
i concede.
>: Leslie, sputtering artist
>I draw and write, but as an artist, I am way too fucking lazy to achieve
>the potential that is there,
philosophical-are you afraid to try to acheive because there might not be
all that you think there? that happens with me, it was not an accusation.
>If you are sputtering, perhaps you need to seek discipline.
i did not mean sputtering in the sense of creating art. i was sputtering
becasue previously (due to my own naivete' {damned if I can spell it}) it
took me by surprise to encounter what i did.
>Doug
leslie, very weary
Doug Quarnstrom
: >: And certain ideals will _never_ come to be: unified world government, for
: >: instance, I believe to be impossible.
: >...not to mention undesirable.
: "And look how many Sci-Fi novels just _assume_ that it will come about.
Oh, it may happen eventually. I just think that like all things, it
will have negative consequences.
: I guess it's just one of the underlying assumptions of the Western
: Tradition..."
Yes, our way is the only way.
doug
Seth Springer Fortin
Springer:
"Now wait a minute -- why is Evan's cynicism 'truth' and my belief in
a possible peaceful, fair unity of mankind grounds for being call a 'fool'?"
Springer, eyebrows knitted.
Seth Springer Fortin
Doug Quarnstrom <d...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
>Leslie Horder (ahs...@psu.edu) wrote:
>
>
>: Leslie, sputtering artist
>
>If you are sputtering, perhaps you need to seek discipline.
>
>Doug
Springer examines Leslie carefully.
"Could be the fuel injector," he finally guesses. "We're really gonna
have to open the hood and take a look, though."
Springer, say ahhhh, Leslie.
Sam Voeller
: "As long as we are talking bout stupidity here, how about the morons that
: put a sign, in the drivethru of Mc Donalds (tm), that brail menus are
: available? Can anyone explain this?"
Probably the same folx that put braille instructions on the ATM
machine near my house - the machine works by touching the screen - a
completely smooth surface with no way for a blind person to reference
what's going on....
(braille instructions on the regular key-pad type ATM's I
understand, tho' I still think the keypad layout is inconsistant enough
to cause trouble!)
--Sam
(excuse me, if I tell you my PIN, can you please get cash for me?
Thanks ever so much.....)
James Jennings
>>>`>"Unity would take power and deception in horrific amounts and will
never be
>>>`>accomplished by honest man."
Leslie said:
>>>`"Ouch."
>>>`Leslie, scared by the truth of it
Evan said:
>>>Evan bites his lip, "Sorry, I should stop being a doomsday prophet."
Leslie said:
>>"No, no, Evan. I didn't mean that you shouldn't say things. It is ok (I
>>think) to prophesy things, even if 'doomsday' in nature, as long as they are
>>soaked in truth. It is the fools who run around spouting about that which
>>they have no clue that get to me..."
Springer said:
> "Now wait a minute -- why is Evan's cynicism 'truth' and my belief in
>a possible peaceful, fair unity of mankind grounds for being call a 'fool'?"
>Springer, eyebrows knitted.
I believe that cynicism is not only currently seen as more realistic, but is
fashionable here in the US. Around the turn of the century, optimism was
fashionable, and people believed that in the future people would be better,
smarter, wiser. Then came WW I, WW II, the Cold War, etc. After all of
that, cynicism came in vogue. Example: Americans view all politicians as
crooks, whether they voted for or against them;
I believe that a peaceful, fair unity of mankind is possible. However, we
human beings will need to change ourselves in order to achieve this. I look
around me and see the vast mass of humanity (I include myself here) mired in
the same old ways of relating to each other, ways that continue the
destructive cycles of the past. If we are ever to break out of the old
cycles, we have to learn better ways of relating with one another, dealing
with differences, solving interpersonal problems, distributing resources,
teaching, learning, etc. We humans need to do SOMETHING, whether it is the
'mutual telepathy' of Spider Robinson's Callaghan stories, or whatever they
learned in the Star Trek universe.
James Jennings (jen...@oasys.dt.navy.mil)
From East of the Mason-Dixon Line
"It is not on any map, true places never are." Melville, _Moby Dick_
Doug Quarnstrom
talented local artist. Last night, after looking at my latest
self portrait, he told me that I am going to have a really cool
body of work and that he thinks I should start trying to put
together a show of my stuff. I disagree with him that I am
quite ready for that (although I am close), but it was very
nice hearing him say it. I am thoroughly pleased, and frankly
I think it likely that I could easily get my work hung in the
local coffee houses, as they frequently hang artists not nearly
as good as I am now... But the time will come when it comes.
How did I get here? Discipline. Was there emotion? Of course.
I'm standing before the mirror an 1 in the morning buzzing on
NIN and Floyd. I'm on one of those hand-flutter, eyes-roll-back-in-
the-head jags, and am nearly exploding with the euphoria of
a drawing coming along well. The head is modelled right, the
hat is the hatliest, the pipes through the temple and jaws have
just that oh-so-right edge of self mutilation, and the transparent
pipe running down the neck off the bottom of the page is sure to
creep the viewer out with that subtle "what the fuck".
My body hurts and wants to sleep, but I tell it to fuck off, I am busy.
doug
Doug Quarnstrom
: Evan interrupts, "No, it's a bit like saying that those children will never
: grow up or learn to behave nicely if they are left to do whatever they want
: at every opportunity. Discipline is a necessity in child-rearing. I would've
: thought the recent rapid decline of the western world would've pointed that
: out to everyone..."
In what specific way has the western world declined recently?
: `You trust your children at some point -- otherwise, what's the point of
: `letting them live?"
: He grins manically, "I trust them to be completely self-centred and to not
: even pretend to be otherwise unless taught so."
: `>"Unity would take power and deception in horrific amounts and will never be
: `>accomplished by honest man."
: ` "That's a rather nasty statement, isn't it?"
: Evan laughs, "Yeah... I'm rather proud of it actually."
As well you should be...
: `Springer, "The most endangered species, the honest man."
Actually, the honest man is a chimera. What never existed cannot
be endangered...
doug
Aaron V. Humphrey
>`What exactly dare you suggesting, Leslie?
>Evan, completely unlike himself, intercepts a question to another, "Whenever
>mankind reaches for the sky, someone raps them on the knuckles... The Tower
>of Babel was basically about mankind trying to set themselves up as the
>extreme example of "Look, we can do anything, we are the dominant creatures
>on this planet..." and, pride coming before a fall cause without pride you
>have nowhere lower to go, they were scattered to the ends of the earth and
>made incomprehensible to each other. Leslie was, I think, suggesting that if
>mankind actually manages to bind itself back together it is entirely possible
>that something may happen to scatter them again..."
"Of course, we must remember that the Tower of Babel was a piece of Judaic
mythology which was as much an explanation for why we didn't all speak the
same language as a moralistic tale. Sure 'pride goeth before a fall',
because one gets cocky... But...I guess I think that saying it will
_never_ happen because some being on high is going to 'rap our knuckles'
for our hubris is fatalistic. I'd rather base my fatalism on human nature
than on something external which has its own reasons for keeping us
stifled."
--
--Alfvaen(Web page: http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~aaron/)
Current Album--The The:Burning Blue Soul
Current Read--Philip K. Dick:Beyond Lies The Wub
Song In My Head--Ini Kamoze:Here Come The Hotstepper
Aaron V. Humphrey
>>Really? My art never began to approach a state where I was willing to
>>call it art until I began to apply discipline to all the emotion.
>I disagree on this point. Art is art is art. What the artist calls art is
>therefore art. Just because I do not like it does not mean that it is not
>'art'. Some children, with all the discipline, can reconstruct what an
>artist took years to develop in the matter of seconds by dumping a bunch
>of pretty fingerpaints on a sheet of paper. i believe that art conveys
>an emotion. but if the artist is not feeling an emotion when they create it
>then i feel that i am being decieved.
"Okay, I'm curious. We have a work of art which is created by an artist
which is feeling an emotion. Now, let's suppose that that same work of art
is produced by another artist who is not feeling emotion. Are you
proposing that you will be able to tell whether the artist is emotionally
'honest' or not? If not, and you will have to be informed through other
means than the art, what the heck is the difference? A piece of art that
evokes emotion in you will do so whether it was created from honest emotion
or calculated effect.
"Several years ago I vowed not to care about who produced a piece of music,
or why, but just to judge it for itself. Who knows how well I'm
doing...but I don't think that such considerations should make a difference.
I'm not ashamed to admit that I do like some Milli Vanilli songs, and
whether they were produced by those who purported to do so or not doesn't
change the quality of the songs. (Okay, they're not great works of art,
but they are often quite listenable, and have their own merits.)"
>>Really? So art that is based on rational appreciation is not art?
>it is an aesthetic thing. i can rationally appreciate a perfect tennis
>serve, but I do not consider it art.
"Irrelevant. If not everything that you can rationally appreciate is art,
then does that mean that if you can rationally appreciate it, then it must
_not_ be art?"
>>: Leslie, sputtering artist
>>I draw and write, but as an artist, I am way too fucking lazy to achieve
>>the potential that is there,
>philosophical-are you afraid to try to acheive because there might not be
>all that you think there? that happens with me, it was not an accusation.
"Hmmm...with me, my laziness stems purely from a lack of desire to do
anything that actually requires work. I suppose you could construe that to
mean that I don't think I'm good enough for my writing to be easy, but I
don't doubt that I can write good stuff when I try to. I just have a
number of higher-priority activities, which I prefer because they give more
immediate enjoyment for less effort."
--
--Alfvaen(Web page: http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~aaron/)
Current Album--The The:Burning Blue Soul
Current Read--Philip K. Dick:Beyond Lies The Wub
Song In My Head--Milli Vanilli:All Or Nothing
Earthwind
>"As long as we are talking bout stupidity here, how about the morons that
>put a sign, in the drivethru of Mc Donalds (tm), that brail menus are
>available? Can anyone explain this?"
A bearded head pooks in through the window he's been lurking at.
"Perhaps, seeing as blind people neither drive nor read its for blind
people accompaning others. Gives them a choice other than having someone
read the entire menu to them."
Paul then withdraws back to the shadows behind the glass.
--
Paul Hinecker
pm_...@vega.concordia.ca
Seth Springer Fortin
ThunderFoot <ecs...@luxor.latrobe.edu.au> wrote:
>`>Evan interrupts, "No, it's a bit like saying that those children will never
>`>grow up or learn to behave nicely if they are left to do whatever they want
>`>at every opportunity. Discipline is a necessity in child-rearing. I would've
>`>thought the recent rapid decline of the western world would've pointed that
>`>out to everyone..."
>
>`Springer:
>` "You call this a decline?"
>
>It's not a decline, it's a cliff."
Springer:
"I have to disagree. There is no other time in Western History that
I would want to be the average joe in. For societies in the West, even given
all our ills, this is the pinnacle. In terms of creature comforts, safety,
political agency, and practically everything else important, this is really
da shit. Now if I were talking about Africa, for instance, the story would be
somewhat different...."
>
>`>`You trust your children at some point -- otherwise, what's the point of
>`>`letting them live?"
>`>
>`>He grins manically, "I trust them to be completely self-centred and to not
>`>even pretend to be otherwise unless taught so."
>
>` "My children are not allowed to play at your house, Evan...."
>
>He laughs, "So if my non-existent children were playing at your house and
>one of them had an imaginary child of yours on the ground and was banging
>their head into the pavement and insists that they are "Only playing..."
>how would you handle the situation?"
>
Springer:
"By stepping in. But not by saying that the two can never play
together again. Rather, I'd have to school your kid in the ways of politeness
and being kind to others. Also, I rather imagine my kids would be able to
defend themselves pretty well.
"My point is simply that children grow up, and sooner or later you have
to start treating them like adults. At five years old, of course you can't
expect a child to be completely civilised, although I was (*grin*). But if
the child gets to be 20, 21, 25, and you still won't let him play with the
other children, something is definitely wrong."
Springer, never one to play God.
Seth Springer Fortin
Kimberlee Titus <kti...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
><text cut in a journalistic frenzy> >
>>
> >Kandace, who used to want to be a journalist when she grew up.
>>
>> "What happened?"
>>
>> Springer, career counsellor.
>>
>I decided that there is just too much hype in the media nowadays and that
>I am not the cut-throat type. I am considering doing freelance human
>interest stories and stuff, but the mainline stuff is just not for me.
>
>Kandace, wanting to write fluff
Springer:
"Well, there are lots of other ways to be a journalist, though. Look
at Harlan Ellison, who is by some stretch of the imagination a journalist, in
the sense that if you read his columns from a given period you will have a
fairly good idea of what was going on in the major political scene of his day.
Or P.J. O'Rourke, who actually calls himself a journalist. Or, God forbid,
Hunter S. Thompson. Hell, just go out there and write it -- if you're smart
and you're presenting something deeper than ABC news, you'll find your niche."
Springer, fanning the flames of gonzo journalism.
Seth Springer Fortin
Earthwind <pm_...@vega.concordia.ca> wrote:
>In article <ahs106.19...@psu.edu>, Leslie Horder <ahs...@psu.edu> wrote:
>>"As long as we are talking bout stupidity here, how about the morons that
>>put a sign, in the drivethru of Mc Donalds (tm), that brail menus are
>>available? Can anyone explain this?"
>
>A bearded head pooks in through the window he's been lurking at.
>
>"Perhaps, seeing as blind people neither drive nor read its for blind
>people accompaning others. Gives them a choice other than having someone
>read the entire menu to them."
Springer:
"Yeah, but consider the structure of a McD's drive-thru. If you pulled
up to the speaker and said you wanted a braille menu, then pulled up to the
window to get it, then ordered at the window instead of the speaker, you'd
confuse the little computerized knaves to no end. It would be chaos."
Springer, who prefers the "vittle-vayor" at WhiteCastle.
ThunderFoot
>"Of course, we must remember that the Tower of Babel was a piece of Judaic
>mythology which was as much an explanation for why we didn't all speak the
>same language as a moralistic tale.
Evan frowns, "It really annoys me when people flippantly start putting down
mythology as "But it's only a story" or "But it never really happened, of
course". Nothing personal, Aelfvaen, just struck a nerve. I'm surprised,
thought I numbed all the little blighters. It just really annoys me because
no-one was around in the past, no-one has more than guesswork to go on, and
despite any evidence most mythology from pretty well any culture could have
quite well been true anyway. Who can honestly say a minotaur didn't live in
the maze? That Ulysses didn't kill Medusa? It would certainly explain why
no-one has ever seen her. This world is a magical, mythical place. Why limit
your possibilities to cold, heartless facts? As far as I'm concerned if it is
possible that something happened then it harms nothing to think that it might
as well have."
/\_____ "There is Death, and there is Oblivion,
// ~ / .\_____ and, of the two,
/ \ \ ' .. \/ Oblivion is the kinder master..."
ThunderFoot
`and go for more of the instant gratification--'Want it NOW!' 'Mine!' And I
`can see that a lot of countries can be described that way, on a national
`level. I question the assertion that the U.S. is the _only_(maybe the
`first...)nation which has moved past that stage somewhat, but there
`certainly aren't that many..."
Evan raises an eyebrow, "I certainly wouldn't be one to hold up the US as
an example of a good thing... But yes, I can see how they could be considered
adolescent. Children have some excuse, due to their lack of experience. They
are meant to be greedy and make mistakes and be given to momentary judgements.
Most adolescents _know_ what they are doing. All the petty squabbles over
things that just shouldn't matter, the obligatory rejection of anyone elses
advice, the subterfuge, sneaking around behind others backs to do what they
know they'd be in trouble for doing if they got caught... Yes, I can see how
the US, as a nation, could be described as adolescent."
`>He grins manically, "I trust them to be completely self-centred and to not
`>even pretend to be otherwise unless taught so."
`"Self-centered, that's the term I wanted. What we need, if not a world
`government, is one where the countries are less self-centered."
He nods, "We do. But that is even less likely than children that are less
self-centred."
Mike Wasson
>I think that the goal of art is perfection within form. This does not
>mean that nothing that is a masterpiece can be called art, but masterpiece
"...is not a masterpiece...."? i.e., "This does not mean that only a
masterpiece can be called art"....? (I'm getting lost with the negations
here...)
>is the goal of art. It is my opinion that accepting sloppiness through
>laziness is a betrayal of the spirit of art. This does not mean
>that a certain sloppiness might not be a studied goal of a form.
>It just means that anything that is tolerated simply because the
>artist is too lazy to bring it under control is contrary to the spirit
>of art.
An interesting point. I notice that a lot of the art I most admire has
a studied sloppiness about it, a sort of controlled chaos. Jackson
Pollock, Rauschenberg's early combines, Giocometti [sp?], early Sonic
Youth, Lisa Germano, Patti Smith, Velvet Underground, some of the
current riot grrrl bands. I admire a number of writers who at first
reading might seem to have thrown their books together with no
particular concern for structure -- Melville, Pynchon, Burroughs,
Bukowski, Acker, Genet, Celine, Jean Rhys, even Hemingway's "Sun Also
Rises" (read some of the first reviews of that novel, where reviewers
complained that nothing happened throughout the entire novel). But I
think every one of the artists I've cited kept a tight rein on their
medium.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Wasson - <A HREF="http://io.com/user/wasson/">Home Page</A>
was...@netcom.com (personal) / was...@io.com (Fat Messiah Games)
"If this is the future, I don't want to know." -- Throwing Muses
ThunderFoot
` "I have to disagree. There is no other time in Western History that
`I would want to be the average joe in. For societies in the West, even given
`all our ills, this is the pinnacle. In terms of creature comforts, safety,
`political agency, and practically everything else important, this is really
`da shit. Now if I were talking about Africa, for instance, the story would be
`somewhat different...."
Evan thinks, "I would have to disagree... I would suggest that the pinnacle
was probably the time we were growing up, and has past. Safety is probably
the best example. Do you think you are safer now? Or ten years ago? Certainly
our knowledge is still growing, but I think humanities ability to live together
in peace is worse than it's ever been."
`>He laughs, "So if my non-existent children were playing at your house and
`>one of them had an imaginary child of yours on the ground and was banging
`>their head into the pavement and insists that they are "Only playing..."
`>how would you handle the situation?"
Springer:
` "By stepping in. But not by saying that the two can never play
`together again. Rather, I'd have to school your kid in the ways of politeness
`and being kind to others. Also, I rather imagine my kids would be able to
`defend themselves pretty well.
"And I would hope my children would not do it in the first place."
` "My point is simply that children grow up, and sooner or later you have
`to start treating them like adults. At five years old, of course you can't
`expect a child to be completely civilised, although I was (*grin*). But if
`the child gets to be 20, 21, 25, and you still won't let him play with the
`other children, something is definitely wrong."
Evan nods, "I agree with this. You _do_ have to eventually treat children as
adults, but you cannot simply start to do it. My point was simply that
discipline of some form is absolutely imperative to the raising of a mature
socially adjusted (Yuck) being. Too much discipline and children will most
likely either rebel or crack up. Too little and they will almost always run
completely wild. This is one of the things that, I think, makes this a decline.
Discipline is seen as a bad thing. Parents and schools can get in big trouble
for doing _anything_ to try and maintain order, and so the kids get to do
whatever they want, and most grow up to be big trouble. I agree that there
needs to be something to prevent child abuse, but the majority of discipline
is not child abuse at all, no matter how the child may hate it at the time."
He pauses, "To weave this back into where it came from, the Tower of Babel
was much more like grounding, 'You shall not go over to Tommy's place until
you've showed me that you can behave.', in that the separation of languages
had a built in time limit. They would eventually learn to communicate, well,
talk at least, to each other again."
Frank Schmidt (CIP 89)
"If someone creates art with emotion and someone else creates the same
thing without emotion, it's not the same for me. It's more like someone
else signing a paper with a signature that looks exactly like yours,
without him/her being you. Simply fake.
I don't think art is possible without 'emotion', though I would prefer
the term 'inspiration'. But on the other side there's always a little
'discipline' in art, the same discipline you use living your life, so
it may seem to you that a piece of art was created solely from emotion,
or inspiration; and maybe with the 'inspiration' which starts the creation
of a piece of art and the 'discipline' with which you work on it, the
picture still isn't complete, maybe 'attention' belongs between them,
to perceive the inspiration and guide the discipline, to combine both
in a fine piece of art."
Frank has at least tried to put his thoughts about the discussion into
words. Enough said.
---
Frank wonders if that text below is art. It creates emotion in him,
but does it in others??
---
TWO YEARS AGO
A morning, an evening, a night...
A room, a bus, a forest path...
A song about future and past
Slowly changes a young man's world
That background thing there becomes a tree
The skyline turns into many houses,
alike in some ways,
different in others
A bird sings,
the noise drifts into the past,
but the song remains
Unused colours shine in a new light
The old turtle and the young dragon
Gave their ageless gift to the young man
Who slowly awakes
from reality
to life
--
|f @ci mat erl e|"...and still on top of this I'm pretty sure it| Frank |
|k d p r i - a d|must have rained the day before you came"(ABBA)|Schmidt|
|s i . o k i n .+-----------------------------------------------+-------+
|chm inf .un gen| And what is _your_ opinion about Veil's hypothesis? |
Aaron V. Humphrey
>I believe that cynicism is not only currently seen as more realistic, but is
>fashionable here in the US. Around the turn of the century, optimism was
>fashionable, and people believed that in the future people would be better,
>smarter, wiser. Then came WW I, WW II, the Cold War, etc. After all of
>that, cynicism came in vogue. Example: Americans view all politicians as
>crooks, whether they voted for or against them;
"These things go in cycles," Alfvaen says. "Yeah, more of the
_Generations_ stuff." Some loud groans are heard from the rest of the
coffeehouse as he utters the dread word. "Optimism may come back in
vogue."
>I believe that a peaceful, fair unity of mankind is possible. However, we
>human beings will need to change ourselves in order to achieve this. I look
>around me and see the vast mass of humanity (I include myself here) mired in
>the same old ways of relating to each other, ways that continue the
>destructive cycles of the past. If we are ever to break out of the old
>cycles, we have to learn better ways of relating with one another, dealing
>with differences, solving interpersonal problems, distributing resources,
>teaching, learning, etc. We humans need to do SOMETHING, whether it is the
>'mutual telepathy' of Spider Robinson's Callaghan stories, or whatever they
>learned in the Star Trek universe.
"Not all the 'cycles of the past' are destructive," Alfvaen says. "Some
cycles go up and down--and up in one way while down in another way. The
part of the cycle which brings a return to optimism may also bring an
increase in the separation of sex roles.
"Of course, the fact that technological capability is increasing, the
'maturity' of governments is increasing(however slowly), and other things,
the cycle is progressing upwards in some ways. And, perhaps, downwards in
other ways...depends on whether you're an optimist or not. :-)"
--
--Alfvaen(Web page: http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~aaron/)
Current Album--David Bowie:Lodger
Current Read--Douglas Adams:Mostly Harmless
Song In My Head--Daniel Lavoie:Jours De Plaines
Aaron V. Humphrey
>`In what specific way has the western world declined recently?
>"Well, it's difficult for me to speak in generalities, becase I only have
>Australia and TV reports to go on, but the violence has _not_ been increasing
>simply linearly and illiteracy is on the rise again. The last generation is...
>It might just be me, but I have a feeling that this generation is worse than
>the usual cycles would allow for. Aelfvaen? Any comments? I have a feeling
>things are falling into the darkness, the next decade will probably reshape
>the world through catastrophe once more."
"Well, Howe & Strauss predict that, around 2020 or so, another Great Secular
Crisis will occur. Previous ones(for the Americans, that is)have included
World War II and the American Revolution. The Idealists will be in
elderhood, and the Civics in rising adulthood; the former are more likely
to get into a war, and the latter to be ready and willing to fight it.
We'll be in between, trying to keep the Idealists in line and give the
Civics a bit of a reality check.
"Of course, if it comes earlier, like the Civil War did, then we may have
to take over and protect the rising generation, who will end up Reactives
as a result."
Seth Springer Fortin
ThunderFoot <ecs...@luxor.latrobe.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>"Of course, we must remember that the Tower of Babel was a piece of Judaic
>>mythology which was as much an explanation for why we didn't all speak the
>>same language as a moralistic tale.
>
>Evan frowns, "It really annoys me when people flippantly start putting down
>mythology as "But it's only a story" or "But it never really happened, of
>despite any evidence most mythology from pretty well any culture could have
>quite well been true anyway. Who can honestly say a minotaur didn't live in
>the maze? That Ulysses didn't kill Medusa? It would certainly explain why
>no-one has ever seen her.
Springer:
"Heeee-hee-hee...haw-haw-haw! Ev, are you being serious here or
funny? because it sounds like a Marx Bros. line."
This world is a magical, mythical place. Why limit
>your possibilities to cold, heartless facts? As far as I'm concerned if it is
>possible that something happened then it harms nothing to think that it might
>as well have."
"Kinda depends on your definition of 'possible,' though, doesn't it?"
Springer, probable but not possible.
ThunderFoot
`>ever seen her.
`Springer:
` "Heeee-hee-hee...haw-haw-haw! Ev, are you being serious here or
`funny? because it sounds like a Marx Bros. line."
Evan smiles, "The funniest things are often deadly serious as well."
` "Kinda depends on your definition of 'possible,' though, doesn't it?"
One side of his mouth quirks up in a smirk, "It does... And I'd like to see
someone try to prove what I think possible wrong... Cause not seeing doesn't
count for not believing."
`Springer, probable but not possible.
Evan, probably impossible.
"Sleep-walking through the waking world, the veil cross your eyes,
/\_____ Every hollow smile just a soul disguise.
// ~ / .\_____ And your dreams are just the shadows of a brighter mind,
/ \ \ ' .. \/ That you've left behind."
ThunderFoot
"OK. I can no longer really argue about physical safety, though I still find
it hard to believe that the violence isn't as bad as everything else,
including the news seems to make it out to be. But I've been talking to a few
others and have worked out what was really worrying me. Violence is just one
of the symptoms. Cynicism is in vogue not through any weird fashion cycle, but
because, for the first time I know of, science has effectively managed to
make materialism the major religion in the western world. No one believes in
magic anymore, God is dead, the fair folk moved to farther shore. And with
nothing fantastical to believe in a lot (not all) of people end up giving up
hope and just go through the motions of life. The suicide rate is the highest
it's ever been in most age groups, and if that is not a sign that hope has
died..."
`In fact, in terms of spiritual safety, I would say that I would be safer in
`the Los Angeles fires of a few years ago than in the comfort of
`Kennebunkport's country clubs."
"Who?"
`>He pauses, "To weave this back into where it came from, the Tower of Babel
`>was much more like grounding, 'You shall not go over to Tommy's place until
`>you've showed me that you can behave.', in that the separation of languages
`>had a built in time limit. They would eventually learn to communicate, well,
`>talk at least, to each other again."
` "Yes, but *what* were they doing? They were building a tower up to
`the sky, to reach heaven. What does an all-powerful, infinitely mature God
`do in a situation like that? He laughs, of course. But the God of the Bible
`gets paranoid. As if they could actually hurt Him. It's ridiculous.
"I agree, that would be ridiculous, but I don't think that was his reasoning
at all. I've read everything I can find on it in our house, and it seems that
the words "to reach" are not in the original. It was a tower "unto heaven",
i.e. for the study of astrology and worship of the heavens. (This is also
intimated by the immense probability that it was the basis of the Babylonian
empire.) Now, according to the story there were a few cities in the surrounding
area, but basically everyone that had survived was pretty well there, and they
were beginning to worship the creation rather than the creator, they were
centring the city on this worship and if completed, with everyone still
together, God would have been forgotten within a few generations. No, they
couldn't have hurt him, but if he let them go he would have been alone again.
If he wanted _anyone_ to remember the truth he had to scatter them, in the
hope that at least one group would keep it along the line. There was really no
other choice he could make, to maximise survival of the "truth" while still
letting them retain their free-will. This is as close as I can come to claiming
to "know the mind of God", it may not have been his reasoning at all, but it
makes sense, and a human emperor who's subjects started some project like this
would've reacted much less kindly."
`I'm willing to believe that there was once a single language and that they
`were later broken up, but not in that fashion or for those reasons. What this
`story seems to be saying is that you have two children who are playing
`peaceably and quietly, and they dress up in your clothes to make themselves
`seem like big people. And you get upset, think they're growing up too quickly,
`and separate them for the rest of the week. Now, given this metaphor, does
`this seem reasonable?"
"It doesn't seem reasonable at all, just silly, but I think a more accurate
metaphor still would be the children deciding that they want the dog to be
their father instead, and lock you out of the house and start to redecorate it
so that their new "father" will like it more... These children would be in
need of some _serious_ talking to."
ThunderFoot
`>Evan, probably impossible.
`"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, *however
`improbable,* must be the truth."
`Jamie, chanelling Sherlock Holmes
Evan grins, "See, even Sherlock Holmes agrees that all the myth's are true!"
Aaron V. Humphrey
>`"I confess, that while I can suspend my disbelief quite well when reading a
>`story, when something is professed to be the gospel truth(pun intended),
>`I'm more inclined to be skeptical.
>Evan grins, "I'm a lot more skeptical about the news than I am about the past.
>Mainly because I don't read things to find the truth, the truth is too big to
>understand with mortal eyes, I read to find the spirit of the story, pieces
>of the pattern, recurring themes that strike resonances. The news is a dead
>thing with no soul and I am decidedly distrusting of it. But I don't expect
>to find that much of the pattern in any one place. No religion or mythographer
>has a monopoly on wisdom. I've tended to receive my most lasting
>"revelations" from reading science fiction."
"Right. Now getting back to the Tower of Babel...yes, it's true that the
whole point of the story was to say, 'There are some things Man was not
meant to know.' So not only do I not believe that the story actually
happened, but I reject the lesson it's trying to teach. I don't dispute
that, perhaps, there are some things that we have discovered(or will
discover)that put us at great risk, and perhaps one of these will bring
about our downfall. But I don't believe that there _is_ an actual entity
that is making decisions about what is good and bad for us to know, let
alone trying to prevent us. And if there was, I wouldn't necessarily trust
it...
"So if I start posting things in an incomprehensible language, you'll know
what happened. :-)"
>`When it comes to history, I do not believe the world in the past to have
>`been fundamentally different in nature than the world today.
>"Neither do I, but as I've mentioned in the past I've seen things that can
>simply not be explained by "science"."
Alfvaen shrugs. "I can't say that I have. I'm an appreciator of
coincidence, but I don't attribute a hell of a lot to it. Think of all
the coincidences that _don't_ happen. And I've never seen convincing
evidence of psychic phenomena or what-have-you."
>`"Maybe I don't consider this world to be a 'magical, mythical place'.
>`Probably I do--I have certain unrealistic expectations, and views which
>`are, no doubt, straight through rose quartz. But I'm too grounded in
>`scientific reality, at least, to really believe in magic.
>"I truly hope you never have need to doubt your scientific paradigm. Magic
>is a very frightening thing."
"Well, that depends on how magical paradigms work..."
>`"Besides, Ulysses didn't kill Medusa. It was Perseus. :-)"
>Evan sticks his tongue out, "It was five in the mourning and it's been a long
>time since I read the old myths."
"That's okay. I spent two minutes before I posted that message trying to
remember the name of the guy who killed the Minotaur. But then, there was
a Medea in there, right? Medea, Medusa...you can see where I get confused.
"Damn, what _was_ that guy's name?"
--
--Alfvaen(Web page: http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~aaron/)
Current Album--Heart:Passionworks
Current Read--Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman:Good Omens
Song In My Head--Joe Cocker:You Can Leave Your Hat On
Jamie Eimermann
Doug Quarnstrom <d...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
>Seth "Springer" Fortin (sj...@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>
(text goes for a ride on the "El" at 2 a.m )
>: Springer:
>
>: But what about my brown-skinned best friend, driving
>: at night in suburban and rural Georgia? What about my woman friends, who are
>: ten dozen times more likely to be believed about rape and acquaintance rape
>: than they would have been before? And, despite all the hype, I really feel
>: quite safe in the city. First of all, because crimes are still counted in the
>: dozens and hundreds per year -- and in a city of 7-8 million, that's pretty
>: good odds.
>
>Yes, and I think much of the violence hype is just that. Hype.
"I'm constantly amazed by suburbanites who seem to think that anyone who
wanders around the city at night will inevitably get mugged. I don't take
unnecessary chances, but I refuse to be held prisoner in my own home by
fear. And when you get out there, you realize that most of the others
out at 2 am are just average ordinary folks like you. You can run into
bad guys anywhere but you can't let that run your life."
Jamie, who never had any problems on the Lake Street El at 2 a.m.
Seth Springer Fortin
Jonathan Hatch <jha...@rocket.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>Aaron V. Humphrey (aa...@amisk.cs.ualberta.ca) wrote:
>: "I didn't say they were _mature_ yet. Just more than previous. And, hey,
>: aren't teenagers better at subterfuge than children? :-) Okay, maybe
>: teenage governments are a really scary thought..."
>
>"Oh Goodness," says Jonathan. "Now you've done it. now I'm going to have
>to write a nonfiction book about the (very) late 20th century, called "A
>Nation Undergoing Puberty: The United States of America Grows Armpit Hair"
Springer:
"When are we going to have our first wet dream?"
Springer, anxiously awaiting....
Seth Springer Fortin
>In article <3itogg$g...@tadpole.fc.hp.com>,
>>
> (text goes for a ride on the "El" at 2 a.m )
>
>wanders around the city at night will inevitably get mugged. I don't take
>unnecessary chances, but I refuse to be held prisoner in my own home by
>fear. And when you get out there, you realize that most of the others
>out at 2 am are just average ordinary folks like you. You can run into
>bad guys anywhere but you can't let that run your life."
Springer:
"Yeah. And actually, your chances of being mugged after about 1
are pretty low. It's the 10-1 range that's really dangerous -- after that,
no one is out."
>
>Jamie, who never had any problems on the Lake Street El at 2 a.m.
"Don't know Lake Street, but I regularly ride the Dan Ryan, which goes
within a block of the Robert Taylor Homes (supposedly the most dangerous
public housing in America), at all hours, and the worst I have ever been
subjected to is listening to four drunk young men discuss city politics."
Springer, two lonely hearts on the subway.
Jamie Eimermann
Seth "Springer" Fortin <sj...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>Springer:
>
> "Don't know Lake Street, but I regularly ride the Dan Ryan, which goes
>within a block of the Robert Taylor Homes (supposedly the most dangerous
>public housing in America), at all hours, and the worst I have ever been
>subjected to is listening to four drunk young men discuss city politics."
>
Lake Street is closed down for reconstruction at the moment, but peoples'
attempts to get the conductor to let them ride without paying was a riot.
Those conductors were tough cookies."
>Springer, two lonely hearts on the subway.
Jamie, rail entertainment critic
ThunderFoot
`"Right. Now getting back to the Tower of Babel...yes, it's true that the
`whole point of the story was to say, 'There are some things Man was not
`meant to know.' So not only do I not believe that the story actually
`happened, but I reject the lesson it's trying to teach.
Evan sighs, "I don't see why it has to be trying to teach a lesson at all.
_If_ it happened, and I'm quite willing to admit it's a big if but an if
nonetheless, then it would simply be recounting what happened and wouldn't
have any particular point at all. A lot of stuff in the bible gets far too
much read into it (Some doesn't, of course) and it's like English lectures on
poetry or Shakespeare about what the authors were trying to accomplish and
what they meant in certain parts, when in actual fact they have no bloody
idea and are just saying what they personally think would have been a good
meaning for it to have. Everyone reads things through there own prejudices,
including me, but in reality none of us know for sure what is true or not
or what was meant by anything done in the unknowable past."
`"So if I start posting things in an incomprehensible language, you'll know
`what happened. :-)"
Evan laughs.
`Alfvaen shrugs. "I can't say that I have. I'm an appreciator of
`coincidence, but I don't attribute a hell of a lot to it. Think of all
`the coincidences that _don't_ happen. And I've never seen convincing
`evidence of psychic phenomena or what-have-you."
"The biggest coincidence I know of happened last year when I was talking to
Wendy a lot (As opposed to this year when I was talking to Wendy a lot!) and
one of friends from here went over to America and just happened to run into
her... She had told me that an Australian was over visiting a friend of hers
and I thought for a moment and said "It wouldn't happen to be Joe, would it?"
and it was. That was rather remarkable. As for noncoincidental stuff I've seen
a few miracles that could not possibly be explained away (Along with a lot that
can.), and a few incidents of "spirits" or something like that. But while I
believe it exists I by no means think this kind of thing is in anyway common.
I don't know whether the world would be better or worse if it was... Probably
little different, people believe whatever they find easiest to justify their
way of life. Which is weird, you'd think it would make more sense to live their
life according to what they believe, but hardly anyone does."
"Sleep-walking through the waking world, the veil cross your eyes,
/\_____ Every hollow smile just a soul disguise.
// ~ / .\_____ And your dreams are just the shadows of a brighter mind,
/ \ \ ' .. \/ That you've left behind."
Leslie Horder
>> --Alfvaen(Web page: http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~aaron/)
>> Current Album--The The:Burning Blue Soul
>> Current Read--Philip K. Dick:Beyond Lies The Wub
>"No, no, no!!! Please No. Anything but that."
>Kandace, lyrical gansta'
<grimace>"Oh dear. Now that is going to be in my head simply /forever/.
Well, maybe only for a while, but it will feel like forever. Thanks.:\"
Leslie, Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na...
Aaron V. Humphrey
>Springer:
"Already did. The Gulf War."
--
--Alfvaen(Web page: http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~aaron/)
Current Album--Elvis Costello:Taking Liberties
Current Read--Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman:Good Omens
Song In My Head--Elvis Costello:Mouth Almighty
Timothy Clarke
: >Jonathan Hatch <jha...@rocket.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
Jonathan:
: >>"Oh Goodness," says Jonathan. "Now you've done it. now I'm going to have
: >>to write a nonfiction book about the (very) late 20th century, called "A
: >>Nation Undergoing Puberty: The United States of America Grows Armpit Hair"
: >Springer:
: > "When are we going to have our first wet dream?"
Aaron:
: "Already did. The Gulf War."
Tim sighs,(*Sigh*) and pulls out a soapbox on which to stand.
"I'll keep this short, because I think I may have said it here already.
While I grant the resemblance of the Gulf War to a wet dream (who
wouldn't?) I do have to stand up for it. It was not a Bad Thing(tm). It
may have been, at the highest levels of government, motivated by greed (I
believe it was). But the result was good. That's all I wanted to say."
Tim
ThunderFoot
`Leslie, Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na...
Evan looks at Leslie strangely, "Do you know how _many_ songs start like
that? Seriously, though, if you think about it it's a very strange way to
try to write tunes and rhythms down. It conveys next to nothing unless they
already know which song you mean. Wonder how it started?"
ThunderFoot
`"Even if you believe it possible that that's Really How It Happened, then
`I suggest that the version we get is largely apocryphal--which is to say,
`it contains elements of truth, but has been modified by retellers of the
`tale to make clear what _they_ thought was the moral lesson of it."
"You could very well be right..."
He smiles, "Maybe we should add a stop to the time travel agenda..."
Jonathan Hatch
Timothy Clarke (t...@max.tiac.net) wrote:
: Aaron V. Humphrey (aa...@amisk.cs.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: : >Springer:
: : > "When are we going to have our first wet dream?"
: Aaron:
: : "Already did. The Gulf War."
: Tim sighs,(*Sigh*) and pulls out a soapbox on which to stand.
: "I'll keep this short, because I think I may have said it here already.
: While I grant the resemblance of the Gulf War to a wet dream (who
: wouldn't?) I do have to stand up for it. It was not a Bad Thing(tm). It
: may have been, at the highest levels of government, motivated by greed (I
: believe it was). But the result was good. That's all I wanted to say."
"First of all, who ever said a wet dream was a Bad Thing(tm) either? And I
just can't get all hepped up about defending Kuwait. I may be misinformed,
but isn't the national average wealth really high because to be a citizen
you have to be a member of the royal family or something? So no matter how
bad Hussein was, is the `rightful' government all that much better?
--
Yog Shoggoth a.k.a. Jonathan Hatch a.k.a. Cap'n Crash&burn
George Carlin's Science Page Sez: "Scientists in Switzerland announced
they have been able to make mice fart by holding
them upside down and tapping them gently on the
stomach with a ball-point pen."
Seth Springer Fortin
Alan Flesch <fle...@lvl-sun668.usc.edu> wrote:
>
>>Springer bouncy-bouncy-bouncies over to Alan and pounces on him.
>
>Alan uses the only defense left to him: he curls up in a little ball
>and hopes his spines will defend him...
Springer:
<Bouncy>
<Bouncy>
<Bouncy>
<Bouncy>
"YEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW"
Springer, pulling quills out of his fur.
Timothy Clarke
: [snips aplenty]
[and a bunch more]
: "First of all, who ever said a wet dream was a Bad Thing(tm) either? And I
: just can't get all hepped up about defending Kuwait. I may be misinformed,
: but isn't the national average wealth really high because to be a citizen
: you have to be a member of the royal family or something? So no matter how
: bad Hussein was, is the `rightful' government all that much better?
"Too tell the truth, I wasn't too hepped about it either. In fact it
wasn't until after the whole thing was over that I really felt anything
strong at all. Once I saw what was done to the Kuwaitis, and what was
done to the regular Iraqi army by the Republican Guard, THEN I felt good
about being there. And regardless of their wealth, they still didn't
deserve that. As for the rightful govenment of Kuwait, I know only a
little bit about it. From what I understand, it is a very strict class
oriented society. I'm certain that I wouldn't want to live there, but
I've never heard about any grave civil rights offenses either."
Tim
Mike Wasson
[Kuwait]
>"Too tell the truth, I wasn't too hepped about it either. In fact it
>wasn't until after the whole thing was over that I really felt anything
>strong at all. Once I saw what was done to the Kuwaitis, and what was
>done to the regular Iraqi army by the Republican Guard, THEN I felt good
>about being there. And regardless of their wealth, they still didn't
>deserve that. As for the rightful govenment of Kuwait, I know only a
>little bit about it. From what I understand, it is a very strict class
>oriented society. I'm certain that I wouldn't want to live there, but
>I've never heard about any grave civil rights offenses either."
It's not a democracy. The Gulf War was certainly not about
defending some nice, happy egalitarian society. It was (I think) about
defending the principle of national sovereignty (ie you can't just walk
into another country with armor divisions and take it over), and about
defending U.S. oil interests.
So it depends how you feel about those two goals.
Alan Flesch
>>>Springer bouncy-bouncy-bouncies over to Alan and pounces on him.
>>
>>Alan uses the only defense left to him: he curls up in a little ball
>>and hopes his spines will defend him...
>Springer:
> <Bouncy>
> <Bouncy>
> <Bouncy>
> <Bouncy>
> "YEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW"
>Springer, pulling quills out of his fur.
"I suppose that I shouldn't point out that hedgehog spines are not
barbed, as those of the American porcupine are, and hence are not
removed from the hedgehog when something, uh, pounces on him." Alan
says somewhat pedantically.
Alan (aj)
who is cautiously peeking about in a semi-rolled up state...