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Breivik & autism
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M Winther
Apr 18, 2012, 7:17:56 AM4/18/12
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Concerning the ongoing trial in Norway of Breivik and the Utöya mass
murder. The debate is ongoing about the mental condition of Breivik.
Some say he is psychotic while some say that he is wholly sane and
evil. I propose that he and certain other shooters, in Sweden and in
the US, suffer from an autistic syndrome. Autistic people are often
very well-functioning (often more focused than normal people), but
they can get stuck in an eternal loop of distorted views of reality.
Breivik's notions are distorted and he has concocted a potpourri of
notions from political circles without really understanding them. One
example of deficient insight is the way in which Breivik identifies
with the medieval ideals of knighthood. But it has never been regarded
chivalrous to murder defenseless people, especially not women. The
medieval knighthood would have regarded his actions as the very
opposite of chivalry.
Breivik lacks a deeper understanding of the political terms and is
merely parroting them. He has developed a fixation on the notions but
he has a shallow understanding of them. This phenomenon is coupled
with the autistic spectrum. The notion of narcissistic self-absorption
has been suggested in media, but I think this is completely wrong.
Autists have a tendency of looking upon other people as irritating
insects, so the lack of empathy can also be explained by autism. In
media, autists are often depicted as harmless people who have no wish
to hurt other people, but this is wrong. Autistic people often have a
socially destructive influence, but they can be productive at
workplaces.
Mats Winther
murder. The debate is ongoing about the mental condition of Breivik.
Some say he is psychotic while some say that he is wholly sane and
evil. I propose that he and certain other shooters, in Sweden and in
the US, suffer from an autistic syndrome. Autistic people are often
very well-functioning (often more focused than normal people), but
they can get stuck in an eternal loop of distorted views of reality.
Breivik's notions are distorted and he has concocted a potpourri of
notions from political circles without really understanding them. One
example of deficient insight is the way in which Breivik identifies
with the medieval ideals of knighthood. But it has never been regarded
chivalrous to murder defenseless people, especially not women. The
medieval knighthood would have regarded his actions as the very
opposite of chivalry.
Breivik lacks a deeper understanding of the political terms and is
merely parroting them. He has developed a fixation on the notions but
he has a shallow understanding of them. This phenomenon is coupled
with the autistic spectrum. The notion of narcissistic self-absorption
has been suggested in media, but I think this is completely wrong.
Autists have a tendency of looking upon other people as irritating
insects, so the lack of empathy can also be explained by autism. In
media, autists are often depicted as harmless people who have no wish
to hurt other people, but this is wrong. Autistic people often have a
socially destructive influence, but they can be productive at
workplaces.
Mats Winther
TWP
Apr 18, 2012, 12:38:40 PM4/18/12
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"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:4f8ea2ea$0$3802$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
the world probably isn't all that different from how Mohamed Atta and others
in AQ or even other causes who have learned to see the world in a particular
way. Were they autistic? Were the Nazi doctors who did experiments on
prisoners all autistic? Were the SS?
It could be that Breivik is sane or at least not significantly crazier than
most people. People who think like him and a few others who are prepared
to act may have been an inevitable part of rapidly changing a country's
population structure. Many people are willing to give their lives for
their country - in fact that quality in people has been keenly encouraged
and rewarded over the years. It isn't all that unexpected that they'd take
lives for their country too if they believed it was threatened, by outsiders
or its leadership. I don't think that requires any kind of brain damage,
just a belief that you have a just cause.
Maybe writing off Breivik as insane would be cowardly, and only force
another Breivik to the surface.
M Winther
Apr 18, 2012, 1:54:26 PM4/18/12
to
"TWP" <tw...@yahoo.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:-9ydnfuUI4ONcxPS...@eclipse.net.uk...
Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) isn't viewed as insanity, per se, but
as a personality disorder, like Narcissistic Personality Disorder
(NPD), or Psychopathic Personality Disorder, etc. This means that
criminals with these disorders are fit for prison sentence, unlike
schizophrenics. Many Nazi doctors would have suffered from diverse
disorders, yes. Society is teeming with disturbed people. My point is
that both his motives and actions were confused. If he doesn't like
Muslims, why kill Norwegian youths?
Read also my article on terrorism:
"The psychodynamics of terrorism"
Abstract: Drawing on notions from comparative religion, and also
Freud's discussion of the death drive, light is shed on the
psychodynamic principles behind terrorism, and the bottomless evil of
mankind, in general. Terrorism is not foremostly a political problem,
or a problem deriving from poverty. Nor is it an evil that derives
from unshackled instinctual forces. Terrorism, and the even greater
problem of bullying and victimization of our peers, derive from an
archaic psychic economy of sin transference. Following St Paul, people
can be vaccinated against this evil, by forsaking ideological
grandiose ideals; by giving up the search for the perfect, blissful,
condition of outer life, and instead learn that 'the kingdom is
within.'
Keywords: terrorism, theocracy, human sacrifice, transfer of sin,
Khidr, The Green Man, St Paul, death drive, genocide.
Read the article here:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/terror.htm
Mats Winther
news:-9ydnfuUI4ONcxPS...@eclipse.net.uk...
as a personality disorder, like Narcissistic Personality Disorder
(NPD), or Psychopathic Personality Disorder, etc. This means that
criminals with these disorders are fit for prison sentence, unlike
schizophrenics. Many Nazi doctors would have suffered from diverse
disorders, yes. Society is teeming with disturbed people. My point is
that both his motives and actions were confused. If he doesn't like
Muslims, why kill Norwegian youths?
Read also my article on terrorism:
"The psychodynamics of terrorism"
Abstract: Drawing on notions from comparative religion, and also
Freud's discussion of the death drive, light is shed on the
psychodynamic principles behind terrorism, and the bottomless evil of
mankind, in general. Terrorism is not foremostly a political problem,
or a problem deriving from poverty. Nor is it an evil that derives
from unshackled instinctual forces. Terrorism, and the even greater
problem of bullying and victimization of our peers, derive from an
archaic psychic economy of sin transference. Following St Paul, people
can be vaccinated against this evil, by forsaking ideological
grandiose ideals; by giving up the search for the perfect, blissful,
condition of outer life, and instead learn that 'the kingdom is
within.'
Keywords: terrorism, theocracy, human sacrifice, transfer of sin,
Khidr, The Green Man, St Paul, death drive, genocide.
Read the article here:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/terror.htm
Mats Winther
M Winther
Apr 19, 2012, 6:50:08 AM4/19/12
to
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> skrev i meddelandet
news:4f8ea2ea$0$3802$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
This is autistic.
/Mats
M Winther
Apr 20, 2012, 5:59:35 AM4/20/12
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"Dave Smith" <davidell...@btinternet.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:4812353.121.1334876235602.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbdm12...
>Baron-Cohen suggests that a diagnosis of autism is not appropriate
>because Breivik lacks affective empathy rather than cognitive
>empathy. He >also compares Breivik to Hitler:
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/01/anders-breivik
>
>Dave Smith
He has a too simplistic understanding of the concepts of cognitive and
affective empathy. He says that people with antisocial personality
disorder (including psychopaths) typically have no trouble reading
other people's thoughts and feelings (intact cognitive empathy). This
is wrong. Psychopaths are good at reading others, but only at the
surface. They have no insight in deeper feelings or thoughts. They
take note of feelings of surprise, etc., but they disregard the
correction that is immediately invoked, which gives another picture.
Baron-Cohen says that autistic persons and psychopaths are mirror
opposites. This is his own self-fabricated theory which is not
sufficiently underpinned empirically. In fact, there is no reason to
assume that all autists are wholly intact in the affective empathic
function. Autism is a very multifarious syndrome. On this ground,
Breivik cannot be autistic since he lacks affective empathy. But
Breivik took drugs and trained himself not to be empathic. To repress
affective empathy is possible for soldiers in war, and it should also
be possible for an autistic person. In fact, they ought to be better
at it than normal people.
Mats Winther
news:4812353.121.1334876235602.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbdm12...
>because Breivik lacks affective empathy rather than cognitive
>empathy. He >also compares Breivik to Hitler:
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/01/anders-breivik
>
>Dave Smith
He has a too simplistic understanding of the concepts of cognitive and
affective empathy. He says that people with antisocial personality
disorder (including psychopaths) typically have no trouble reading
other people's thoughts and feelings (intact cognitive empathy). This
is wrong. Psychopaths are good at reading others, but only at the
surface. They have no insight in deeper feelings or thoughts. They
take note of feelings of surprise, etc., but they disregard the
correction that is immediately invoked, which gives another picture.
Baron-Cohen says that autistic persons and psychopaths are mirror
opposites. This is his own self-fabricated theory which is not
sufficiently underpinned empirically. In fact, there is no reason to
assume that all autists are wholly intact in the affective empathic
function. Autism is a very multifarious syndrome. On this ground,
Breivik cannot be autistic since he lacks affective empathy. But
Breivik took drugs and trained himself not to be empathic. To repress
affective empathy is possible for soldiers in war, and it should also
be possible for an autistic person. In fact, they ought to be better
at it than normal people.
Mats Winther
Lance
Apr 20, 2012, 8:37:48 AM4/20/12
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On Apr 20, 11:59 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Dave Smith" <davidelliottsm...@btinternet.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:4812353.121.1334876235602.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbdm12...
Why must you turn the man's deeds into psychopathology? Even if a
person suppresses their empathy is that not a decision and an action
for which the man is accountable? In english we used to use phrases
such as 'He hardened his heart..' to indicate these kinds of
decisions. To me they are moral decisions and a person is accountable
for them and the consequences of making them - they are not
pathological.
Lance
> "Dave Smith" <davidelliottsm...@btinternet.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:4812353.121.1334876235602.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbdm12...
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> On Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:50:08 AM UTC+1, M Winther wrote:
> > "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> skrev i meddelandet
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> On Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:50:08 AM UTC+1, M Winther wrote:
person suppresses their empathy is that not a decision and an action
for which the man is accountable? In english we used to use phrases
such as 'He hardened his heart..' to indicate these kinds of
decisions. To me they are moral decisions and a person is accountable
for them and the consequences of making them - they are not
pathological.
Lance
M Winther
Apr 20, 2012, 8:56:04 AM4/20/12
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"Lance" <lanc...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>> >http:>www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/01/anders-breivik
Like I said before, this form of pathology does not make him morally
unaccountable. Unlike schizophrenics, criminals with these disorders
are fit for prison sentence.
Mats
news:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
unaccountable. Unlike schizophrenics, criminals with these disorders
are fit for prison sentence.
Mats
Lance
Apr 20, 2012, 9:27:56 AM4/20/12
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On Apr 20, 2:56 pm, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
As far as I know real autistic people are difficult to live with and
have problems getting on in society but are almost never criminal. Why
besmirch their disability such a morally repugnant person? I don't
think he had any disability. He was able to move around Europe and get
arms he was able to pass policemen and guards and convince them he was
well intentioned. There is nothing wrong with his social understanding
or his understanding of other people. He is not disabled - he is evil.
Trying to hide evil by calling it a form of pathology is of little
help to those who would like to live in a better world or to those who
genuinely suffer from disability or pathological conditions.
Lance
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
have problems getting on in society but are almost never criminal. Why
besmirch their disability such a morally repugnant person? I don't
think he had any disability. He was able to move around Europe and get
arms he was able to pass policemen and guards and convince them he was
well intentioned. There is nothing wrong with his social understanding
or his understanding of other people. He is not disabled - he is evil.
Trying to hide evil by calling it a form of pathology is of little
help to those who would like to live in a better world or to those who
genuinely suffer from disability or pathological conditions.
Lance
M Winther
Apr 20, 2012, 10:07:02 AM4/20/12
to
"Lance" <lanc...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:0c63511c-40ee-4405...@s7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
autistic. Moreover, Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD) contains a
spectrum of autistic variants (which accounts for"Spectrum"). Some
autists are severely socially disabled, whereas people with "high
level autism" are not. There are even autists that are *more* friendly
and socialable, and musical, than normal people. This variant of
autism is called "Williams syndrome". They always gravitate towards
people and try to make people happy.
Breivik is both evil and autistic.
Mats Winther
Lance
Apr 20, 2012, 11:00:21 AM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 4:07 pm, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:0c63511c-40ee-4405...@s7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Bull. William's syndrome is a genetic disorder, not autism. It is
associated with very low IQ. Next you will be saying that children
with Down's syndrome have something to do with autism.
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:0c63511c-40ee-4405...@s7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
associated with very low IQ. Next you will be saying that children
with Down's syndrome have something to do with autism.
M Winther
Apr 21, 2012, 12:14:05 AM4/21/12
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"Lance" <lanc...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:789713db-de88-430c...@n22g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Whether it's correct I don't know. Autism is a genetic disorder,
sometimes invoked by environmental factors.
Mats
M Winther
Apr 21, 2012, 2:06:50 AM4/21/12
to
"Lance" <lanc...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
sick ideas. He identifies with the Knights Templars, views al-Qaida as
a model, etc. It is counter-productive to argue that his manifesto is
intellectually clear-sighted. In this way his sick ideas can take root
among stupid youths. In fact, his worldview is manifestly deranged.
Mats Winther
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/
Lance
Apr 21, 2012, 6:40:01 AM4/21/12
to
On Apr 21, 6:14 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:789713db-de88-430c...@n22g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Actually after more than $1 billion of research less than 20% of
autism cases have been linked to genes. It is certainly not a genetic
syndrome like William's or Down's.
Lance
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:789713db-de88-430c...@n22g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
autism cases have been linked to genes. It is certainly not a genetic
syndrome like William's or Down's.
Lance
Lance
Apr 21, 2012, 6:43:33 AM4/21/12
to
On Apr 21, 8:06 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
There are many scholarly ways of establishing the value of ideas.
There is no such thing as 'sick' ideas, only sick individuals. To
attack ideas by attacking the person (as hominem) has long been
regarded as incorrect.
Lance
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:d2bc7808-55bd-40ff...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
There is no such thing as 'sick' ideas, only sick individuals. To
attack ideas by attacking the person (as hominem) has long been
regarded as incorrect.
Lance
M Winther
Apr 21, 2012, 6:45:44 AM4/21/12
to
"Lance" <lanc...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:e9e27592-1597-4ce6...@v1g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
risk factor genes have been identified. Autistic Spectrum Disorder
(ASD) is believed to be 80-90% genetically determined. Already at
the age of 6 months, it is possible to see differences in the brain in
children who develop autism.
http://neurosciencenews.com/autism-genes-complex-role-neuroscience-news
Mats
M Winther
Apr 21, 2012, 6:53:40 AM4/21/12
to
news:911a8674-410d-4022...@f27g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>> Mats Wintherhttp:>home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/
healthy since, otherwise, right-wing extremism would be relativized as
a mental illness instead of pure evil. But my counter-argument is
that if Breivik is found to be healthy, then his ideas could be
regarded as sane, too, which is counter-productive. Breivik has
realized this. That's why he protested against the first diagnosis
according to which he was schizophrenic.
Mats
>
>There are many scholarly ways of establishing the value of ideas.
>There is no such thing as 'sick' ideas, only sick individuals. To
>attack ideas by attacking the person (as hominem) has long been
>regarded as incorrect.
>
>Lance
I argued against those who think that Breivik must be viewed as
>There are many scholarly ways of establishing the value of ideas.
>There is no such thing as 'sick' ideas, only sick individuals. To
>attack ideas by attacking the person (as hominem) has long been
>regarded as incorrect.
>
>Lance
healthy since, otherwise, right-wing extremism would be relativized as
a mental illness instead of pure evil. But my counter-argument is
that if Breivik is found to be healthy, then his ideas could be
regarded as sane, too, which is counter-productive. Breivik has
realized this. That's why he protested against the first diagnosis
according to which he was schizophrenic.
Mats
Lance
Apr 23, 2012, 8:37:47 AM4/23/12
to
On Apr 21, 12:45 pm, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:e9e27592-1597-4ce6...@v1g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Please note this sentence: "Despite this, only a few inherited risk
factors have been discovered to date." Right. Autism is not a simple
genetic condition like Down's or william's syndrome.
Lance
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:e9e27592-1597-4ce6...@v1g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
factors have been discovered to date." Right. Autism is not a simple
genetic condition like Down's or william's syndrome.
Lance
Lance
Apr 23, 2012, 8:40:38 AM4/23/12
to
On Apr 21, 12:53 pm, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:911a8674-410d-4022...@f27g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
How do you decide whether ideas are crazy or not? I contend that you
use the tools of logic and evidence just as you do when you examine
any argument or claim. It seems to me that if Breivik's ideas are
simply examined as they stand any reasonable and moral person can draw
their own conclusions. The public needs no protection by someone
declaring the ideas to be insane.
Lance
> "Lance" <lanceg...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:911a8674-410d-4022...@f27g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
use the tools of logic and evidence just as you do when you examine
any argument or claim. It seems to me that if Breivik's ideas are
simply examined as they stand any reasonable and moral person can draw
their own conclusions. The public needs no protection by someone
declaring the ideas to be insane.
Lance
M Winther
Apr 23, 2012, 10:57:21 AM4/23/12
to
news:ad5dbae7-6c9f-4fd3...@n22g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
----------------
>Please note this sentence: "Despite this, only a few inherited risk
>factors have been discovered to date." Right. Autism is not a simple
>genetic condition like Down's or william's syndrome.
>
>Lance
It's because in the case of autism, there are mutations in *hundreds*
of genes involved in wiring the brain, It is a more complex phenomenon
so it's difficult to pinpoint. This doesn't mean that it isn't
genetic.
Mats
>Please note this sentence: "Despite this, only a few inherited risk
>factors have been discovered to date." Right. Autism is not a simple
>genetic condition like Down's or william's syndrome.
>
>Lance
of genes involved in wiring the brain, It is a more complex phenomenon
so it's difficult to pinpoint. This doesn't mean that it isn't
genetic.
Mats
M Winther
Apr 23, 2012, 11:02:08 AM4/23/12
to
news:4ad37c30-40c5-4bce...@b2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
You are nitpicking over a spontaneous statement that I made, which
isn't an exact truth according to syllogistic logic, but is more of a
fuzzy reasoning building on the logic of feeling, something which
intelligent people indulge in all the time.
Mats
isn't an exact truth according to syllogistic logic, but is more of a
fuzzy reasoning building on the logic of feeling, something which
intelligent people indulge in all the time.
Mats
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