intj vs. intp
Drednot306
what is immediately observable. Both are introverts, so the function that is
readily observable is NOT the dominant one.
Yeah, supposedly INTP's favor introverted thinking, and INTJ's favor
introverted intuition, but most people don't see that at first glance. INTP's
usually seem more obviously creative to the casual observer since their
intuition is the primary way of dealing with the world around them. They are
always looking at possibilities, and like ENTP's, they are always trying to
make something. Most people don't realize how logical and organized an INTP's
thinking is until he expresses himself on paper, or they see how well he
handles complex problems. Introverted Thinking also shows it's face in debate,
but most conversations are small talk, and INTP's rarely become involved in
such conversations. Also, the INTP's typical disorganization and laid back way
or doing things just doesn't seem to reflect their logical bent. Introverted
thinking spends it's time perfecting the understanding provided by intuition,
but it's product is invisible. Another difference form an INTJ is in the area
of emotions. INTP's feelings have an all or nothing quality.Every once in a
while a straw will break the camel's back and the INTP will be a slave to their
passions, losing all of their normal control. (This works for both positive and
negative emtions. An INTP in love is about the most creative person you can
find. And they often have a childlike playfulness about them, and they don't
play emotional games. But they do tend to have occasional severe mood swings
in the other direction. When emotions kick in the iNTP can find them completely
overwhelming. ) Also, INTP,s often have a physical and risk-taking side to
their nature. Doing things with their hands like playing a piano or going for a
drive are often good ways to relax.
INTJ's on the other hand seem OBVIOUSLY logical to any observer, and it's
usually surprising to find that they are as creative and original as they think
they are. INTJ's can be brilliantly insightful, and their creative idea's
totally original, but they aren't grounded to external reality unless they make
it so. While INTP's look for external patterns and build models upon them,
INTJ's come up with ideas out of nowhere and then try to impose them on
reallity. If they can't, they throw the idea away. So in order to see an INTJ's
creativity you usually have to look at their long-term success in reaching
distant goals. The path of their lives IS the expression of their creativity.
I've noticed that INTJ's tend to specialize more than INTP's. As far as
emotions go, to the casual observer, they are practically inert. They are
considerably more even tempered than INTPs, and it's hard to make them lose
control.The hardest part about an INTJ in love is telling that he is. Love
means a sharing of committments, objectives, and hopefully imagination. While
an INTJ's emotional life is low key, once you know them they often seem
remarkably well balanced (depending on maturity--many INTJ's like INTP's suffer
from being socially isolated geeks in youth and it can haunt them for a long
time). They know exactly who they are, and what they value.
Those are the differences, though in general the two types seem to be a lot
alike otherwise. They're both logical and imaginative, and both usually prefer
to keep a low profile. They tend to be intellectual and individualistic. And
they both can be somewhat arrogant and snobbish to those they don't consider
equals, though they generally mean well. (and one might pick up a hint of
defensiveness in their cynicism.)
Mike INTP
Caroline
rings true, scarily so. I am curious if other INTP's have the following
experience: people, usually those who know me only slightly, often feel
the need to not only psychoanalyse me, but to sit me down
(metaphorically on occasion) and explain to me how I must change in
order to be more successful/better understood/happier/etc., but mostly
in how _I_ am just clueless about my own behavior and motivations, and
the consequences of such.
I am really getting tired of this.
Any others with a similar experience? How to make it stop?
Caroline
BTW Mike, I do agree with your analysis of INTP's quoted below, at least
from my personal experience.
===
DreMoa
roquentin
Nobody Important
>I am a stereotypical INTP in that when I read a description of one, it
>rings true, scarily so. I am curious if other INTP's have the following
>experience: people, usually those who know me only slightly, often feel
>the need to not only psychoanalyse me, but to sit me down
>(metaphorically on occasion) and explain to me how I must change in
>order to be more successful/better understood/happier/etc., but mostly
>in how _I_ am just clueless about my own behavior and motivations, and
>the consequences of such.
In my own experience, this seems to happen quite a bit in one's early years.
It tends to happen less frequently as you age. There are probably several
reasons for this. One is probably that you learn to adjust over time and
engage in fewer obvious behaviors which tend to "enrage the bulls". Also
"the bulls" themselves sometimes become more tolerant of INTP "strangeness" as
_they_ age. Based on your question, my intuitive SWAG (Scientific Wild-Assed
Guess) is that you are still quite young, probably no more than early 20s.
Best advice, IMO, is give it some time and hang in there.
Larry Himes (INTP).
Nobody Important
>For the average person a useful comparison between these two should focus on
>what is immediately observable. Both are introverts, so the function that is
>readily observable is NOT the dominant one.
<snipped>
Your analysis seems to me to be very apt. I would like to add that it has
been my experience that INTPs and INTJs, while seeming to have so much in
common, have such different aproaches to life that they tend to hate each
other almost by definition. Anyone else note this?
Larry Himes.
INTP
Nobody Important
> Based on your question, my intuitive SWAG (Scientific Wild-Assed
>Guess) is that you are still quite young, probably no more than early 20s.
I read another post of yours in a different thread and it would seem my SWAG
may have been wrong. Oh well, nobody's perfect<g>.
Larry Himes.
INTP
Caroline
Thanks Larry,
Yes your SWAG was wrong - I'm 44. It's been a long time since anyone
thought I was in my 20's! ;-)) Hense the reason I am REALLY getting
tired of this experience.
In any case, I seem to be a slow learner if your hypothesis is correct.
I know one apparent mistake I have been making is to emphasize the
aloofness component of my behavior. Seems to draw them like moths to a
flame.
Caroline
p.s. I realise I have been inadvertantly cross-posting,
having one of those I'm-really-not-paying-much-attention weeks.
Tim Kelley
>I am a stereotypical INTP in that when I read a description of one, it
>rings true, scarily so. I am curious if other INTP's have the following
>experience: people, usually those who know me only slightly, often feel
>the need to not only psychoanalyse me, but to sit me down
>(metaphorically on occasion) and explain to me how I must change in
>order to be more successful/better understood/happier/etc., but mostly
>in how _I_ am just clueless about my own behavior and motivations, and
>the consequences of such.
>
>
>Any others with a similar experience? How to make it stop?
This happens to me a lot, although I am an INFP. As with you, when I first
read the MBTI desription of INFP it was uncannily like me; I was
disturbed it was so accurate.
I have a female friend, for example, who is probably a ENFJ
(although Enneagram-7 might describe her better) who is always trying to
give me tips on how to be happier, etc. Extroverted types, I think,
generally see introverted types as "inferior" and people who need to
be corrected, since they (Exxx) recieve much stimulation from social contact,
they don't usually understand that such contact might be just tiresome
to someone else. I had major problems with this in my youth ...
--
Tim Kelley
kel...@mindspring.com
Lyle Meier
Nobody Important wrote in message ...
>>
>Your analysis seems to me to be very apt. I would like to add that it has
>been my experience that INTPs and INTJs, while seeming to have so much in
>common, have such different aproaches to life that they tend to hate each
>other almost by definition. Anyone else note this?
thinking and
extroverted thinking are very different. (INTJ extroverted thinking is
auxillary, and INTP
introverted thinking is dominant.
Extroverted thinking is what is often viewed as thinking, coming from the
purely logical
side of the fence, just the facts mam type of thing.
Introverted thinking is based upon the internal values and is more concerned
with
process than with external logic. These two types should have a great deal
of
difficulty communicating based upon their 4 functions
INTJ + Introveted Intuition, Extraverted Thinking, Introverted Feeling,
Extraverted Sensing
INTP = Introverted Thinking, Extraverted Intuition, Introverted Sensing,
Extraverted Thinking.
Based upon this communication would be very difficult using Bebe's model.
Deakin
Now I find the opposite. Actually it is only those close to me who attempt to change me. They are the only ones who have the nerve, and the understanding of me. And then it is probably only the P & the 'off with the fairies'ness. No one tries to change the I, they only view me as inferior for it. The N, especially NT, mean that people don't tend to follow what I'm talking about. The T seems to threaten people in some way. I have not encountered these attempts to change so much. Probably because they would not dare. Because they don't understnad me, they seem to have some level of fear. Therefore many people, I suppose, don't know how to deal with me. Not so many people tend to follow my train of thought, and even fewer have much in common with me. And I can relate to your sense of aloofness. The dilemmna, then, is whether or not to pretend to be something else, in order to make life easier (as I believe most people do)? I have never made any attempt to pretend to be anything I'm not (though, then as I said above, it is difficult to assess yourself) - people don't know how to deal with that. Except when I was very young & discovered that I was completely incapable.
People do seem to like to psychoanalyse me, incidentally. I am not acquainted with many psychologists, however.
So do you relate to any of this?
Kate.
Caroline wrote:
I am a stereotypical INTP in that when I read a description of one, it
rings true, scarily so. I am curious if other INTP's have the following
experience: people, usually those who know me only slightly, often feel
the need to not only psychoanalyse me, but to sit me down
(metaphorically on occasion) and explain to me how I must change in
order to be more successful/better understood/happier/etc., but mostly
in how _I_ am just clueless about my own behavior and motivations, and
the consequences of such.
I am really getting tired of this.
Any others with a similar experience? How to make it stop?
Caroline
BTW Mike, I do agree with your analysis of INTP's quoted below, at least
from my personal experience.
===
Drednot306 wrote:
>
> For the average person a useful comparison between these two should focus on
> what is immediately observable. Both are introverts, so the function that is
> readily observable is NOT the dominant one.
Alain FIGER
>
> I would like to add that it has
> been my experience that INTPs and INTJs, while seeming to have so much in
> common, have such different aproaches to life that they tend to hate each
> other almost by definition. Anyone else note this?
>
> INTP
As a rule I do appreciate most INTPs I know, one of them being a close
friend. As an INTJ, INTPs bother me sometimes, especially for the
emphase they give to the logical correctness in anything, even when
logic is the least important aspect of the objective situation.
An example: we were in a group trying to understand why something was
going wrong and how to fix it. The INTP argued that we had not correctly
stated the sentence meaning : "something is going wrong".
For him it was more important to correct the sentence than to look at
the very problem. :)
Alain Figer, INTJ-INFP
Orsay (France)
Doug Milewski
> I am curious if other INTP's have the following
> experience: people, usually those who know me only slightly, often feel
> the need to not only psychoanalyse me, but to sit me down
> (metaphorically on occasion) and explain to me how I must change in
> order to be more successful/better understood/happier/etc., but mostly
> in how _I_ am just clueless about my own behavior and motivations, and
> the consequences of such.
I don't get this at all. Then again, I spent quite a few years honing my
charm, to the point where I am complemented on it. That took a great deal of
changing my own attitude and reforming my habits.
I also avoid people likely to lecture me that way.
I suspect that people sit you down because your social skills need work.
This is easy to suspect, as that is one of the weak areas of an INTP. I have
learned a great deal in the last ten years and I am still have lots to
learn. I will be learning for the rest of my life.
Drednot306
>emphase they give to the logical correctness in anything, even when
>logic is the least important aspect of the objective situation.
>
>An example: we were in a group trying to understand why something was
>going wrong and how to fix it. The INTP argued that we had not correctly
>stated the sentence meaning : "something is going wrong".
>For him it was more important to correct the sentence than to look at
>the very problem. :)
>
>Alain Figer, INTJ-INFP
>Orsay (France)
>
I'm an INTP, and I find that kind of nitpicking annoying, though I have to
admit that unless there's pressure I am kind of prone to it. The point is that
even absent minded professors can learn to prioritize. And we can use other
functions than introverted thinking. (For that matter it doesn't hurt to use
our ears as well. You're never too smart to learn something.) I think overuse
of our logical tendencies is what leads to writer's block. --And few things
kill us more than a failure to be creative.
I wonder if these traits are the reason so many INTP's work better alone. In
some ways we're better when we're not talking. I always feel better turning in
a finished product and letting it speak for itself. when I work with others,
they are essentially forced to endure the process that goes on in my head
regardless. All the worthless information and criticisms I utterbefore the
conclusion are basically for my benefit, and I'd rather not have people hear
them.
Mike
Benjamin Alarie
> Those are the differences, though in general the two types seem to be a lot
>alike otherwise. They're both logical and imaginative, and both usually prefer
>to keep a low profile. They tend to be intellectual and individualistic. And
>they both can be somewhat arrogant and snobbish to those they don't consider
>equals, though they generally mean well. (and one might pick up a hint of
>defensiveness in their cynicism.)
>
> Mike INTP
Hi Mike,
I test out as an INTX, so I found your post very interesting. How do
you think the salient differences you pointed out would reconcile
themselves in the psyche of someone like myself? I'm very interested
in what you may have to say about this...
The last paragraph seems to describe me very well, so I am definitely
INT. Wondering about the X though...
Cheers!
Alain FIGER
>
> I test out as an INTX, so I found your post very interesting. How do
> you think the salient differences you pointed out would reconcile
> themselves in the psyche of someone like myself?
>
Types are approximations of a more complex reality (a continuity, not a
discontinuity). Cutting people abruptly into INTJs on one hand and INTPs
on the other hand may be misleading, since most psychological traits are
a continuum, (including the I/E trait, the N/S trait etc.). Obvioulsy
there are intermediate people, that I use to call either INTJ-INTP or
INTP-INTJ (the first type means the MB type, and the second one shows
the direction the personality is shifted from the typical representative
of the type). You can find more information about this "double-formula"
on my website :
http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb161592
Alain Figer, INTJ-INFP
(N.B.: able to follow-up this thread on the NG from May 18 forth)
Drednot306
>I test out as an INTX, so I found your post very interesting. How do
>you think the salient differences you pointed out would reconcile
>in what you may have to say about this...
>
>The last paragraph seems to describe me very well, so I am definitely
>INT. Wondering about the X though...
>
>Cheers!
As Alain said it's a continuum. The best course is probably to focus less on
the model and just look at yourself. See which traits are expressed. Maybe,
they're entirely different? I have to admit that being an INTP, my description
will probably be better for them than for INTJ's in all fairness. It's probably
a good idea to just keep working on a checklist of your own. Both types are a
lot alike except in extreme examples. i guess and it all depends on how
nitpicking you want to get for whatever purposes.
You might want to look at the fictional examples as well as the historical
examples referred to in the different sources. Literature honestly does a much
better job than any of these descriptions.
The biographies I've read of Einstein (INTP posterchild) do seem to portray a
person i can very easily relate to. In Keirsey's "Presidential Temperament",
which does seem more convincing than the casual examples in his other books,
Lincoln, Jefferson, and Madison were described convincingly as INTP's. Each one
has a chapter description referring to traits that they expressed throughout
their lives. These examples along with those in the "Pygamlion Project" books
are far more illustrative than the flat descriptions we usually see.
Unfortunately, There is no "Pygmalion project : Rationals" yet.
Presidential Temerament" cited Grant, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Hoover,
and Eisenhaueras INTJ's.
Whatever, the historical accuracy, the descriptions do illustrate the
differences of the types fairly clearly.
Mike
angel
> I am a stereotypical INTP in that when I read a description of one, it
> experience: people, usually those who know me only slightly, often feel
> the need to not only psychoanalyse me, but to sit me down
> (metaphorically on occasion) and explain to me how I must change in
> order to be more successful/better understood/happier/etc., but mostly
> in how _I_ am just clueless about my own behavior and motivations, and
> the consequences of such.
> I am really getting tired of this.
> Any others with a similar experience? How to make it stop?
Yes.
What I used to do was to sit *them* down and explain how different
people have different needs. I've realized with age that it
can be extremely difficult for different types of personalities
to understand each other --- and hence, the only thing to
do is to not listen.
> Caroline
> BTW Mike, I do agree with your analysis of INTP's quoted below, at least
> from my personal experience.
Yup, same here.
angel